Author Topic: Did Jacks mom know? (Read 93532 times)

Kemmer · « **Reply #120 on:** Apr 06, 2006, 10:05 PM »

Maybe I'm way off base, but I think that, since there was no way in hell Ennis would ever accept an invitation back to the Twist's just to visit--and Jack's mom well knew that--her invitation was to return secretly and take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback the way Jack wanted--and to complete the circle. I further think Ennis' statement at the end after straightening the postcard of BBM, "Jack, I swear..." was a vow somehow to take Jack's ashes back to Brokeback.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #121 on:** Apr 06, 2006, 10:51 PM »

Quote from: Kemmer on Apr 06, 2006, 10:05 PM

Maybe I'm way off base, but I think that, since there was no way in hell Ennis would ever accept an invitation back to the Twist's just to visit--and Jack's mom well knew that--her invitation was to return secretly and take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback the way Jack wanted--and to complete the circle. I further think Ennis' statement at the end after straightening the postcard of BBM, "Jack, I swear..." was a vow somehow to take Jack's ashes back to Brokeback.

That is a possibility I guess but 2 years passed since he was at the Twist residence. When was he planning on doing it?

Tom · « **Reply #122 on:** Apr 07, 2006, 03:36 AM »

Maybe when mean old Papa Twisy died. I like the idea though

jazzsinger · « **Reply #123 on:** Apr 07, 2006, 12:58 PM »

I love the idea of Ennis returning for Jack's ashes and taking them to Brokeback mountain. Its unlikely, but its possible.

I love the way both the story and the film are full of these intricate possibilities, nothing stated as an absolute certainty. It's a metaphor for Jack and Ennis's relationship: 'Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved'.

BTW there is just one look on Jack's mother's face which to me suggests that she might be hinting to Ennis that Jack's ashes belong on Brokeback.

Johnny Angel · « **Reply #124 on:** Apr 07, 2006, 01:15 PM »

Check out this interview with Roberta Maxwell, the actress who played Jack's mom. Listen to the MP3 of the interview, and how she says "my son..." According to her, Jack's mother knew about Jack and Ennis.

http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/archives/2006/01/depth_of_feelin.php

jazzsinger · « **Reply #125 on:** Apr 07, 2006, 02:06 PM »

thanks for that Johnny Angel.

I thought both Roberta Maxwell and Peter McRobbie were absolutely brilliant as Jack's parents. His father's cruelty is stated more specifically in the story but its there in the film. I think that his parents knew that Jack was gay from a young age - hence his father would not give him advice or go to see him in rodeo. When I first saw the film I even thought his father may have had some part in Jack's death!

Annie Proulx clearly thought that Jack's mother knew how deeply Jack and Ennis were in love, she is compassionate in her words and gestures to Ennis, and there is that one expression (when she slightly raises an eyebrow) when she seems to be saying:

'Take the ashes, I won't see him buried on the grieving plain, Jack belongs on Brokeback Mountain with you! :'(

I do believe Jack knew that Ennis would find the shirts, and I think Jack's mother knew it too, and was hoping he would find them.

She is the only character in the story who would support and celebrate the love between Ennis and Jack - she is the closest to us, as readers or audience.

honestjoe1959 · « **Reply #126 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 07:49 AM »

you bet

*Froggy* · « **Reply #127 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 08:05 AM »

Quote from: JerBear418720 on Apr 06, 2006, 12:50 AM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Apr 05, 2006, 01:57 AM
Quote from: proulxfan on Apr 05, 2006, 01:31 AM
BTW, I also agree with the assessment that Ms. Maxwell's performance was on the highest level and on a par with Heath's and Jake's.

Isn't it amazing how the three of them said more to the viewers with their eyes, facial expressions and body language than all the words in the movie. I can not see how I could possibly see acting on this par ever again.

I read that the scene with Heath and the Twists was shot in a single day. It's pure and simply breathtaking genius.

It was Heath's last day and he was not even meant to stay there for the whole thing...listen to Roberta's interview and you'll get the info too. http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3080.0

jazzsinger · « **Reply #128 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 08:28 AM »

Thanks for that...I listened to the interview, which was really interesting. I can understand now that it was Heath's last day of shooting - he put everything into it!

I remember also that Jack's father knew where Brokeback Mountain is - he knew about Jack and Ennis....

donnaread · « **Reply #129 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 09:43 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Apr 06, 2006, 10:51 PM

Quote from: Kemmer on Apr 06, 2006, 10:05 PM
Maybe I'm way off base, but I think that, since there was no way in hell Ennis would ever accept an invitation back to the Twist's just to visit--and Jack's mom well knew that--her invitation was to return secretly and take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback the way Jack wanted--and to complete the circle. I further think Ennis' statement at the end after straightening the postcard of BBM, "Jack, I swear..." was a vow somehow to take Jack's ashes back to Brokeback.

That is a possibility I guess but 2 years passed since he was at the Twist residence. When was he planning on doing it?

How do you know that its been two years? What did I miss that lets you know that it has been two years? Donna

jazzsinger · « **Reply #130 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 11:44 AM »

I don't know where that 2 years time lapse come from, but I wonder why Jack's ashes haven't been interred in the family plot by the time of Ennis's visit? The story suggests it is some months after Jack's death. And why doesn't Jack's father at least let Ennis see and hold the urn, or whatever holds the ashes?

I wonder if the father, knowing that Ennis was Jack's lover, refuses to allow the ashes to go to Brokeback Mountain as some spiteful homophobic retribution? I had not thought of this before, and it makes the story even more heartbreaking!

It does though allow for the possibility that Jack's mother is indeed inviting Ennis to return for the ashes, and that Ennis's 'Jack, I swear' is in part a vow to return him to Brokeback Mountain....maybe to be united with Ennis, in the fullness of time...

Patriot1 · « **Reply #131 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 02:39 PM »

Quote from: donnaread on Apr 08, 2006, 09:43 AM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Apr 06, 2006, 10:51 PM
That is a possibility I guess but 2 years passed since he was at the Twist residence. When was he planning on doing it?
How do you know that its been two years? What did I miss that lets you know that it has
been two years? Donna

Sorry Donna, I should have said the screenplay says two years has passed. Also, less understandable, Alma tells Ennis it has been two years since she went out with Troy giving the impression that Ennis has been in a mournful fog for two years.

tpe · « **Reply #132 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 07:37 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Apr 08, 2006, 02:39 PM

Quote from: donnaread on Apr 08, 2006, 09:43 AM
Quote from: Patriot1 on Apr 06, 2006, 10:51 PM
That is a possibility I guess but 2 years passed since he was at the Twist residence. When was he planning on doing it?
How do you know that its been two years? What did I miss that lets you know that it has
been two years? Donna

Sorry Donna, I should have said the screenplay says two years has passed. Also, less understandable, Alma tells Ennis it has been two years since she went out with Troy giving the impression that Ennis has been in a mournful fog for two years.

This is indeed correct. The screenplay puts the visit to Jack's parents in 1982 (probably fall), and Alma Jr.'s visit in 1984 (probably spring).

For a concordance between story and screenplay timelines for the final scenes, check out one insightful post in the thread dealing with the Timelines on the Final Scenes.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #133 on:** Apr 08, 2006, 09:24 PM »

Thanks for the link Johnny Angel. She was amazing and impactful in her role as Jack's mom.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #134 on:** Apr 09, 2006, 01:52 AM »

Quote from: jazzsinger on Apr 08, 2006, 11:44 AM

...but I wonder why Jack's ashes haven't been interred in the family plot by the time of Ennis's visit? The story suggests it is some months after Jack's death.

In some families it is customary to keep the ashes in the home for at least a year for mourning.
Then, the ashes are buried or put into a crypt. That is the way it was in my family so I just assumed that is the way it was in Jack's. Never gave it a second thought.

Johnny Angel · « **Reply #135 on:** Apr 09, 2006, 03:28 AM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Apr 08, 2006, 09:24 PM

Thanks for the link Johnny Angel. She was amazing and impactful in her role as Jack's mom.

I totally agree. Like Annie Proulx wrote in her note to her, "...just the right touch." The scene with Jack's parents is becoming one of my favorite scenes, now that I've got the DVD.

Kenny · « **Reply #136 on:** Apr 09, 2006, 04:09 AM »

I think that Jack's mother definitely knew about her son's relationship with Ennis. A mother has an intuition about these things -- especially a good mother. She probably never had a conversation with Jack about it... it was probably more along the lines of her finding the shirts a while back, coming to the realization, and then finding peace with it after Jack was gone. In a way, meeting Ennis was probably the most important thing she needed. She needed to get to see what it was that Jack loved most in life, and to help comfort Ennis (guiding him to find the shirts, IMO) because she knew that's what Jack would've wanted. That was a favor to her son. What a sweet, sweet character. I loved her.

JerBear418720 · « **Reply #137 on:** Apr 09, 2006, 05:37 PM »

Quote from: proulxfan on Apr 06, 2006, 09:28 PM

Jerbear,

Just noticed your signature. Beautiful, man. What a great image!! Thanks.

Thanks, proulxfan. I got the idea from a gay couple. The mother of one of the guys read the entire poem at their commitment ceremony - as a surprise - NOBODY knew she was gonna do it. Needless to say, there was not a dry eye there.

gimmejack · « **Reply #138 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 06:26 PM »

Quote from: Kemmer on Apr 06, 2006, 10:05 PM

Maybe I'm way off base, but I think that, since there was no way in hell Ennis would ever accept an invitation back to the Twist's just to visit--and Jack's mom well knew that--her invitation was to return secretly and take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback the way Jack wanted--and to complete the circle. I further think Ennis' statement at the end after straightening the postcard of BBM, "Jack, I swear..." was a vow somehow to take Jack's ashes back to Brokeback.

I have always firmly believed that Jacks mother wanted Ennis to return so that she could see her sons wishes fulfilled and also to help the grieving Ennis through his pain. She wanted to give him that gift and I think she would have even if it caused Mr. TWIST to rage a bit.

lamusica · « **Reply #139 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 06:44 PM »

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks that Jack's mom wants Ennis to take his ashes to BBM. I think her body-language is very pointed in that she knows what these two men meant to one another, and she wants her baby to have his way as to where his ashes are laid to rest. When she looks at her husband, you can see a look of resignation on her face. She can't speak up out loud for Jack, because she has never spoken up for herself or Jack in her life -- how could she start now? I think that old man ruled the roost, but, we all know, that mama can find ways around the old bastard. She's a heart-breaking character to me, because I think her silence and acceptance of what life dealt her was, in the long run, a neqative thing. But, then again, it's the 60's when Jack was growing up. Many women ( more than now) just kept their mouth shut and let their man rule the family -- even when they knew he was harming her and the children.

gimmejack · « **Reply #140 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 06:47 PM »

Exactly, her body language, how her back was turned to her husband when he spoke of how Jack is going in the family plot. She held eye contact with Ennis and looked pained to hear Mr. Twist say those things. Then the way she said come back.......

I'm glad i'm not the only one also. Part of the reason I sought out to revive this thread!

Thank You!!!

aintfoolin · « **Reply #141 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 02:35 PM »

Of course she knew . The emotional interaction between her and Ennis leaves no doubt. If it were'nt for the old man she would have allowed Ennis to leave with the ashes that very day.

chameau · « **Reply #142 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 04:01 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 19, 2006, 02:35 PM

Of course she knew . The emotional interaction between her and Ennis leaves no doubt. If it were'nt for the old man she would have allowed Ennis to leave with the ashes that very day.

I second

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #143 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 07:03 PM »

Count me in too! I believe she would have let Ennis have the ashes because she knew what Ennis meant to Jack and she wanted her son's last wishes fulfilled.

BBBOY · « **Reply #144 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 07:53 PM »

One of my private fantasies has always been that Ennis goes to Texas and digs up Jack's ashes there and then goes to Lightning Flats and digs up the rest of them and then goes to Brokeback and scatters them for Jack. I have several ending for that fantasy!

gimmejack · « **Reply #145 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 09:07 PM »

Quote from: BBBOY on Jul 19, 2006, 07:53 PM

One of my private fantasies has always been that Ennis goes to Texas and digs up Jack's ashes there and then goes to Lightning Flats and digs up the rest of them and then goes to Brokeback and scatters them for Jack. I have several ending for that fantasy!

AWWWWWWWWWWWWW, he would do it too!

aintfoolin · « **Reply #146 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 05:07 AM »

Uh oh, Do I feel a fan-fic coming on? great fantasy. I like to think that Eennis somehow brings the ashes together and scatters them on Brokeback Mt.someday.

welshwitch · « **Reply #147 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 06:11 AM »

I'm pretty much convinced Jack's mother knew; the more interesting point is whether his father did. They've always had a difficult relationship and he must know how much his wife loved his son, so the refusal to let Ennis take Jack's ashes may have been just a way of getting at her and in a way punishing her for supporting a sone whom he could see only in a negative light. It's also a power struggle - what Ennis wants, what Jack wanted, what his mother wants, all are as nothing compared to what the stud duck wants. I wonder if he even has a deep-down suspicion that his wife not only knew about Jack but accepted what he was - so that in a sense it's her fault.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #148 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 04:32 PM »

That's an interesting point WW. I can certainly see the stud duck doing that to be punishing and spiteful.

gimmejack · « **Reply #149 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 10:32 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 06:11 AM

I'm pretty much convinced Jack's mother knew; the more interesting point is whether his father did. They've always had a difficult relationship and he must know how much his wife loved his son, so the refusal to let Ennis take Jack's ashes may have been just a way of getting at her and in a way punishing her for supporting a sone whom he could see only in a negative light. It's also a power struggle - what Ennis wants, what Jack wanted, what his mother wants, all are as nothing compared to what the stud duck wants. I wonder if he even has a deep-down suspicion that his wife not only knew about Jack but accepted what he was - so that in a sense it's her fault.

I definetely got the same impression of the "stud duck". Spite and punishment...horrible.