Author Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers  (Read 311216 times)

Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #150 on: Feb 07, 2006, 08:03 PM »
Hey Chameau buddy, you want my shoulder? :'( I make it a rule, friends don't cry alone in my presence.

No need Cowboy,

This is where I stand, Jack never gave up on Ennis.

Thanks for the shoulder BTW.

YEE-HAAW I knew I liked you! Jack and Ennis forever!
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline chameau

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #151 on: Feb 07, 2006, 08:07 PM »
Hey Chameau buddy, you want my shoulder? :'( I make it a rule, friends don't cry alone in my presence.

No need Cowboy,

This is where I stand, Jack never gave up on Ennis.

Thanks for the shoulder BTW.

Might need a shoulder now,

Listening to "He was a Friend of Mine"

Sob!  :'(

YEE-HAAW I knew I liked you! Jack and Ennis forever!
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #152 on: Feb 07, 2006, 08:13 PM »
I'll always be here for you Chameau!  :'(
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline chameau

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #153 on: Feb 07, 2006, 08:14 PM »
I'll always be here for you Chameau!  :'(

PBS big time!  :'(
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #154 on: Feb 07, 2006, 08:41 PM »
Jeepers...

I could a used a shoulder too... listening to "A Love That Will Never Grow Old"...

*sniff* Jeesh, Ennis... I wish I could quit you!

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #155 on: Apr 18, 2006, 07:41 AM »
I firmly believe that Jack didn't quit Ennis - and he never would have. If he hadn't died, he'd have been there in November, just like before. His tryst with Randall was purely physical, with no love involved - even Jack's father says that it never came to anything.

Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.

I also liked the idea that when Ennis said "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" he was really saying "without you" at the end of it - I reckon Jack had got pretty good at reading between the lines when it came to Ennis and he would have realised that's what Ennis meant.

One other thing that makes me believe it would never end is the shirts: if Jack truly had quit Ennis then he might well have put the shirts somewhere else, hidden away, so as not to remind him of what he had loved and lost (we know he went there sometime between their last get together and his death) But the shirts were still there....just like Jack's love for Ennis.
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

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He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #156 on: Apr 18, 2006, 07:48 AM »
Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.

Why must you make me cry so early in the morning?   :'(


Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #157 on: Apr 18, 2006, 08:04 AM »
Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.

Why must you make me cry so early in the morning?   :'(



Sorry, tpe - it's well into the afternoon here though ;)
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #158 on: Apr 18, 2006, 08:12 AM »
Sorry, tpe - it's well into the afternoon here though ;)

It's alright.  If one has to cry at anytime of the day, it might as well be for this scene...




Offline forbiddenlovers

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #159 on: Apr 18, 2006, 09:30 AM »
My two cents :) lol

Jack never quit Ennis, nor do I think he would have ever quit him. But, I do think or at least wonder, Did Jack look elsewhere. We hear from his father that he was going to bring another man to the ranch. Was this Randall? Was this someone else? I wonder if it was Randall, honestly. Then I think if it was Randall, we know that Jack was leaving Lureen based on what Jacks' dad said, did Lureen think something was going on between them? Thus, Jack is killed because word gets out? Ok, I'm reading too much into it and going off into another topic. But I don't know, I have a lot of questions about who this other man was going with Jack to his fathers ranch. I need to get through reading the short story and the screenplay :)

ann
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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #160 on: Apr 18, 2006, 09:37 AM »
Ann, I think he did try.

There was a discussion a while back.  In that discussion, it was proposed that Jack felt so terrible about how Ennis was torn apart emotionally in the last meeting that he tried to 'let him be' as a kind of 'sacrifice'.

I can't help thinking that if he tried to forget Ennis, he did it partly to 'free' Ennis from what he thought was a love that was tearing him apart.

I don't know.  All I know is that I love these characters so much.


Offline filazahies

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #161 on: Apr 18, 2006, 09:46 AM »
I firmly believe that Jack didn't quit Ennis - and he never would have. If he hadn't died, he'd have been there in November, just like before. His tryst with Randall was purely physical, with no love involved - even Jack's father says that it never came to anything.

Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.

I also liked the idea that when Ennis said "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" he was really saying "without you" at the end of it - I reckon Jack had got pretty good at reading between the lines when it came to Ennis and he would have realised that's what Ennis meant.

One other thing that makes me believe it would never end is the shirts: if Jack truly had quit Ennis then he might well have put the shirts somewhere else, hidden away, so as not to remind him of what he had loved and lost (we know he went there sometime between their last get together and his death) But the shirts were still there....just like Jack's love for Ennis.
I was going to post something, but it's nonsense since you have expressed exactly the same things I wanted to write, and better 'cause my english is not very good.
Thanks :)

Offline forbiddenlovers

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #162 on: Apr 18, 2006, 11:28 AM »
Ann, I think he did try.

There was a discussion a while back.  In that discussion, it was proposed that Jack felt so terrible about how Ennis was torn apart emotionally in the last meeting that he tried to 'let him be' as a kind of 'sacrifice'.


That's what I'm thinking too. Jack never gave up on him, but he "let him be" for Ennis' sake. He didn't want to be the cause of his pain anymore, so he did the sacrifice of letting him go.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #163 on: Apr 18, 2006, 11:44 AM »
That's what I'm thinking too. Jack never gave up on him, but he "let him be" for Ennis' sake. He didn't want to be the cause of his pain anymore, so he did the sacrifice of letting him go.

forbiddenlovers, I've actually come around to accepting this interpretation.  I think it's because it's the only scenario that my heart can live with.  Jake Gyllenhaal may beg to differ with this interpretation.  But the way every one of us inevitably come to terms with Jack's end is truly personal and special -- it's our own, deep inside.




Offline forbiddenlovers

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #164 on: Apr 18, 2006, 12:04 PM »
So true, tpe, so true. That's my interpretation also. Jack was dying inside as was Ennis because they weren't together like they should have been. The only way Jack knew how to live, was to let Ennis be. I'm sure it killed him though, not the literal killing, but the figuratively sense.  I'll always wonder what Ennis meant though in the end, the final words of the movie "Jack, I swear"  I swear what?  My own idea is Ennis swears that if he had just one more chance with Jack, he would have taken Jack up on his offer to ranch together. But then again, I think that's more than Ennis could have committed to. Maybe he just means "Jack, I swear I'd do things differently" which I guess is still really saying the same thing. Ugh!! Too many interpretations ;D
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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #165 on: Apr 18, 2006, 12:21 PM »
So true, tpe, so true. That's my interpretation also. Jack was dying inside as was Ennis because they weren't together like they should have been. The only way Jack knew how to live, was to let Ennis be. I'm sure it killed him though, not the literal killing, but the figuratively sense.  I'll always wonder what Ennis meant though in the end, the final words of the movie "Jack, I swear"  I swear what?  My own idea is Ennis swears that if he had just one more chance with Jack, he would have taken Jack up on his offer to ranch together. But then again, I think that's more than Ennis could have committed to. Maybe he just means "Jack, I swear I'd do things differently" which I guess is still really saying the same thing. Ugh!! Too many interpretations ;D

I know, a bit OOT, but as to the 'I swear...' enigma, I have come to interpret it as: Jack, I swear I shall love only you till the day I die.

It is Ennis's wedding vow.

He will be faithful unto death.


Offline forbiddenlovers

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #166 on: Apr 18, 2006, 12:26 PM »
Now that's a great way to look at it. I think I'll jump in with you on that interpretation!! ;)
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Offline TwoSkins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #167 on: Apr 18, 2006, 01:55 PM »
Boy, everyone is killin me with all of these insightful possibilities - noting is incorrect all is tearful!!!
I agree wit everything said ! WOW! (I say that alot with much respect for this movie)
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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #168 on: Apr 19, 2006, 01:43 AM »
To quote Jack's dad "'But like most of Jack's ideas, they'd never come to pass"  :'(
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2006, 01:45 AM by greenfrog »

Offline stephan

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #169 on: Apr 20, 2006, 03:34 PM »
To quote Jack's dad "'But like most of Jack's ideas, they'd never come to pass"  :'(

Oh, Greenfrog !!!!!! :-[  :-[  :-[
There has been a lovely discussion. You're quotation hits the mark... and I wish it didn't !!!!!

In any case, it does seem extremely probable that Jack had finally given up asking more of Ennis's time. So he filled in the gaps with Randall or Mexican candy.
Tpe, I love your interpretation of "I swear...."

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #170 on: Apr 20, 2006, 04:08 PM »
To quote Jack's dad "'But like most of Jack's ideas, they'd never come to pass"  :'(

Oh, Greenfrog !!!!!! :-[  :-[  :-[
There has been a lovely discussion. You're quotation hits the mark... and I wish it didn't !!!!!

In any case, it does seem extremely probable that Jack had finally given up asking more of Ennis's time. So he filled in the gaps with Randall or Mexican candy.
Tpe, I love your interpretation of "I swear...."

stephan, I feel the same way too.  He probably gave up aking for more time, but he still loved Ennis. 'Filling the gap' is a good way of putting it. 

The foundation is solid.  Nothing changes underneath...

 

Offline Brokeback_Ca

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #171 on: Apr 26, 2006, 04:59 AM »
I firmly believe that Jack didn't quit Ennis - and he never would have. If he hadn't died, he'd have been there in November, just like before. His tryst with Randall was purely physical, with no love involved - even Jack's father says that it never came to anything.

Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.

I also liked the idea that when Ennis said "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" he was really saying "without you" at the end of it - I reckon Jack had got pretty good at reading between the lines when it came to Ennis and he would have realised that's what Ennis meant.

One other thing that makes me believe it would never end is the shirts: if Jack truly had quit Ennis then he might well have put the shirts somewhere else, hidden away, so as not to remind him of what he had loved and lost (we know he went there sometime between their last get together and his death) But the shirts were still there....just like Jack's love for Ennis.
  This says it for me, too. If Jack had lived he would have been back in November and they would have gone through a lot of the same s**t. And yes, Jack had gotten pretty good at reading between the lines. He could see what Ennis couldn't, knew him better than anybody. Like it or not, he would hold the space open for both of them. It could have eventually gotten better. Jack was determined to move back to Lightning Flat. They could have compromised, Jack being closer they could see each other more often even if they didn't live together. They would still argue, love, argue, not speak for a while but always find each other for some Brokeback. Mr. Twist would kick the bucket, be put in that damn family plot and dear Mrs. Twist would have two sons.  Word would have to be getting in by now that things were opening up in the cities-the movie takes us into the 80's. Even if they couldn't relate personally to all of that some of it would rub off.     
The fact is: That Brokeback Mountain has helped to change the world.  We can change the world.  We really can.  We really are.  When the world is made better for one gay or lesbian person, it's better for everyone.    Ang Lee

Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #172 on: Apr 26, 2006, 05:28 AM »
I like that take on it, Brokeback_Ca - that time would have simplified their complicated lives. Of course, that brings us back to the real tragedy, that they never had the chance to find out.

Never enough time, never enough :'(

Welcome to the madhouse, by the way ;)

He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline proulxfan

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #173 on: Apr 26, 2006, 05:47 AM »
So true, tpe, so true. That's my interpretation also. Jack was dying inside as was Ennis because they weren't together like they should have been. The only way Jack knew how to live, was to let Ennis be. I'm sure it killed him though, not the literal killing, but the figuratively sense.  I'll always wonder what Ennis meant though in the end, the final words of the movie "Jack, I swear"  I swear what?  My own idea is Ennis swears that if he had just one more chance with Jack, he would have taken Jack up on his offer to ranch together. But then again, I think that's more than Ennis could have committed to. Maybe he just means "Jack, I swear I'd do things differently" which I guess is still really saying the same thing. Ugh!! Too many interpretations ;D

I know, a bit OOT, but as to the 'I swear...' enigma, I have come to interpret it as: Jack, I swear I shall love only you till the day I die.

It is Ennis's wedding vow.

He will be faithful unto death.


tpe,

I wish I had words to express my thanks for that "take" on "Jack, I swear..." Of course, Ennis doesn't have the words either, but that is what I believe was in his heart. Beautiful. Bless you. :'( :'(   :)
« Last Edit: Apr 26, 2006, 06:05 AM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline Brokeback_Ca

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #174 on: Apr 26, 2006, 05:58 AM »
I like that take on it, Brokeback_Ca - that time would have simplified their complicated lives. Of course, that brings us back to the real tragedy, that they never had the chance to find out.

Never enough time, never enough :'(

Welcome to the madhouse, by the way ;)


Go ahead, burst my bubble!   Actually I kept thinking about that that while I was writing. We all want Jack back if things would be just a little different... :(            Thanks, NoReins.   It's good to be here. :)
The fact is: That Brokeback Mountain has helped to change the world.  We can change the world.  We really can.  We really are.  When the world is made better for one gay or lesbian person, it's better for everyone.    Ang Lee

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #175 on: Apr 26, 2006, 06:47 AM »
Of course, Ennis doesn't have the words either, but that is what I believe was in his heart. Beautiful. Bless you. :'( :'(   :)

proulxfan, thanks.  It happens every so often in real life that love is made ever stronger and ever more faithful by death.  The ending is such a tragedy, but how many of us would ever be privileged to realize such a love in our lifetimes?   Ennis realized it to late, but he still had that love to cherish for the rest of his life.  By the precious quality of that love, I believe it will endure.






Offline proulxfan

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #176 on: Apr 26, 2006, 06:50 AM »
Brokeback_Ca,

I love your scenario, and in fact have enjoyed some of the fan fictions that have created alternative outcomes for our boys. I gather there are those who see these as some sort of sacrilege, but I was so devastated by the bleak outlook at the end of both the story and the film, that I needed to find some relief. ( Kind of like Jack going to Mexico! ;) ) But I think it's almost unavoidable to try to figure out some way for things to have worked out better, if not exactly happily. I like your proposal very much, especially the part where Jack's mom gets to have two sons and be rid of her bitter old husband. :D  I wonder what my current OT count is ?
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Offline TJ

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #177 on: Apr 26, 2006, 02:31 PM »
Quote
"In some ways I think maybe Ennis' love is stronger because there is a faithfulness to that and I think you see it happen," he admits. "I think Jack eventually says ‘I'm going to have to go on with my life, I'm going to have to find somebody else and find intimacy with him.’ He does, at the end his Dad says he brought some other guy here and they were going to want to work on a farm."


I had not read the above before; but, I tend to agree with Jake Gyllenhaal here and I have agreed with that type of "quitting" since I read the complete published in a book version of the original Annie Proulx short story. I read the story weeks before I saw the movie.

Jack quits Ennis in the sense that he decides that Ennis should not longer have control over his life, the "short lease," as he has had for 20 years.

Jack's love for Ennis does not quit. People can terminate relationships for various reasons and still their love for each other remain constant. I have personally know such people. The guys still saw each other and even went on trips. A mutal friend could not understand why they were still on speaking terms after they split up and I asked him, "Haven't you ever heard of a friendly divorce?"

In the text of the book, Jack's father did not say that his son brought the neighbor up to Lightning Flat; Jack was going to bring him up there. And, where I am from (Oklahoma), when Mr. Twist said, "Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here," one would use "this spring" in a conversation to refer to the current season or the next spring season. If it was summer, fall, or winter, when the person talked about the previous spring, he would say "last spring."

I have read in some people's posting of the time lines of the movie's screenplay, it was a year or more after Ennis had last been with Jack when Ennis went up to Lightning Flat.
(Ennis) is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream . . . lets a panel of the dream slide forward . . . it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Offline that_gal

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #178 on: Apr 26, 2006, 04:09 PM »
I have to agree with Brokeback_ca. I do not think Jack would of quit Ennis either. In fact, I think that with Ennis sending Jack the postcard to meet in November, I believe that he was reaching  out to Jack to make up for their last time together. Becasue we know that people in relationships argue like Jack and Ennis did, and do not stop the relationship.
 Also, with one of his daughters now over 18, breaking up with Cassie, realizing that the only love of his life is Jack, now was the time to act on Jack's wish that they would live together. But as we know, that never came to be.
I have to say again, that this movie has touched a part of me down inside that is so very hard to explain to anyone but all of you on this forum. Thank God I have you to talk to! I think I shall be a Brokeback Mountain addict for the rest of my life!

Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #179 on: Apr 27, 2006, 02:28 AM »
Sorry TJ, I can't agree that it was over a year later that Ennis went up to Lightning Flat. To me, "this spring" means "the spring of this year" i.e. the spring just past. Jack and Ennis were last together in the spring and, if other get togethers are anything to go by, Jack probably headed up to his parents ranch straight after leaving Ennis (it's a 14 hour journey to Wyoming so he presumably was used to "killing two birds with one stone" - seeing his parents after seeing Ennis) He's angry about what's just happened between them so, instead of talking about Ennis like he always used to, he talks about "some other fella" (Randall in the movie) But, of course, that never happens - perhaps only because Jack dies, or perhaps because he never really intended it to happen, he was just p*ssed at Ennis.

We also know that the next meeting they'd talked about was August - even though Ennis had pretty much already said that wasn't going to happen, I think he sent the card to Jack BEFORE then, just to confirm that November was still looking like his next chance to get away (I can't remember the exact wording on the card - maybe someone can help here) That then comes back marked "deceased" ( :'( ) and Ennis calls Lureen. There's no way that he would have delayed that phone call - and once she tells him that Jack's parents have his ashes but that Jack wanted them scattered on Brokeback, there's no reason to assume that he would have delayed his visit up there for any significant period of time. Maybe a week or two weeks till he composed himself enough, but certainly not months.

Incidentally, before you say it, I know the movie and the book are separate, but I can't recall there being any indication of a significant time gap before the visit to Lightning Flat in the book either.
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.