Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler  (Read 187953 times)

Offline chameau

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #150 on: Feb 26, 2006, 07:58 PM »
Has anyone noticed in some of the short docs about BBM that there are scenes of some men..(front shot of one balding guy in a uniform or mechanic outfit)..who just might be the "killers" of Jack we see by the railroad tracks in Ennis' mind. They are listed in the credits, but has anyone else seen that shots I refer to?? I have seen it on IFC for sure.

They're in the trailer, the scene was cut from the movie.
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Offline sweet_man_1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #151 on: Feb 28, 2006, 12:16 AM »
ok here's my take on this after reading all the posts here and watching the movie...

i'm still not sure... LOL

but i'm leaning towards jack being killed...

here's a few thoughts

1. one thing that struck me as incredibly odd (that no one here has mentioned) was that jacks wife acted as though she did not know enis at all... how is this possible when they spend weeks together every year... i'm sure jack told her where he was going and with who (but not about sex of course)... so it seemed obvious to me that she was pretending to not know who enis was for a reason (see #2)... hell, jack even told his parents about enis, i'm sure he told his wife he was going "fishing with a buddy"

2. the fact that jacks wife was so distant to enis, after mostly likely knowing he was a good friend of her husbands leads me to believe even more that she knew he was killed (and at least that her husband was gay)... if she only thought he was a good friend she wouldn't have been so distant... so, she either found out coincidentally that her husband was gay and didn't know how to address it with enis OR (and this is where i'm leaning) she knew he was killed BECAUSE he was gay and it was too embarassing for the truth to be told to the community... she was clearly either in shock and/or working to save herself the pain of having been married to a gay man (and in this respect, i do understand her attitude, even though she wasn't the warmest person... she wasn't the only one who lied here!!)

3. the flashbacks to jack being beaten were either exactly what happened OR what enis was worried about what happened... but they certainly were NOT what enis KNEW happened, as he clearly did not know what happened

4. jacks mom knew he was gay and that enis was his lover.. i also think jacks dad knew but had a harder time with it

5. i find it highly unlikely that the author would purposely put in that jack was killed accidentally... its just too much of a coincidence... the whole purpose of the movie was to expose the heartbreak and hopelessness of gay oppression... of course she put in the possibility that jack was murdered because it is highly likely it could happen

6. i dont think that jacks wife had him killed, and obviously those who have read the book have vouched that her father didnt kill him cuz he was dead, so i tend to think it was someone he outed himself to that beat him

Offline sweet_man_1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #152 on: Feb 28, 2006, 12:20 AM »
ok here's my take on this after reading all the posts here and watching the movie...

i'm still not sure... LOL

but i'm leaning towards jack being killed...

here's a few thoughts

1. one thing that struck me as incredibly odd (that no one here has mentioned) was that jacks wife acted as though she did not know enis at all... how is this possible when they spend weeks together every year... i'm sure jack told her where he was going and with who (but not about sex of course)... so it seemed obvious to me that she was pretending to not know who enis was for a reason (see #2)... hell, jack even told his parents about enis, i'm sure he told his wife he was going "fishing with a buddy"

2. the fact that jacks wife was so distant to enis, after mostly likely knowing he was a good friend of her husbands leads me to believe even more that she knew he was killed (and at least that her husband was gay)... if she only thought he was a good friend she wouldn't have been so distant... so, she either found out coincidentally that her husband was gay and didn't know how to address it with enis OR (and this is where i'm leaning) she knew he was killed BECAUSE he was gay and it was too embarassing for the truth to be told to the community... she was clearly either in shock and/or working to save herself the pain of having been married to a gay man (and in this respect, i do understand her attitude, even though she wasn't the warmest person... she wasn't the only one who lied here!!)

3. the flashbacks to jack being beaten were either exactly what happened OR what enis was worried about what happened... but they certainly were NOT what enis KNEW happened, as he clearly did not know what happened

4. jacks mom knew he was gay and that enis was his lover.. i also think jacks dad knew but had a harder time with it

5. i find it highly unlikely that the author would purposely put in that jack was killed accidentally... its just too much of a coincidence... the whole purpose of the movie was to expose the heartbreak and hopelessness of gay oppression... of course she put in the possibility that jack was murdered because it is highly likely it could happen

6. i dont think that jacks wife had him killed, and obviously those who have read the book have vouched that her father didnt kill him cuz he was dead, so i tend to think it was someone he outed himself to that beat him

Offline bnjmn3

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #153 on: Feb 28, 2006, 08:03 AM »
In the Charlie Rose interview, Ang says that Lureen was obviously lying to Ennis during the phone conversation concerning Jack's death.
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #154 on: Mar 14, 2006, 05:21 AM »
I know.  It is strange Lureen did not meet Mr. Twist Sr and Mrs Twist.  For that matter I do not think even his son met his grand-parents.  I wonder why?  Even Jack did not take Lureen and his son to Lightinin Flat to meet his parents.  I understand Jack went up every year to Lightinin Flat to help out his folks.  Strange is it not?

Where would they all have slept at Jack's parents house?

And who would have taken care of the business while they all were gone?

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Offline Patriot1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #155 on: Mar 14, 2006, 05:46 AM »
1. one thing that struck me as incredibly odd (that no one here has mentioned) was that jacks wife acted as though she did not know enis at all... how is this possible when they spend weeks together every year... i'm sure jack told her where he was going and with who (but not about sex of course)... so it seemed obvious to me that she was pretending to not know who enis was for a reason

Nobody has corrected you on this so I thought I would as you have expressed the same thought several times.

When Ennis called Lureen she did say she knew who he was.  She referred to him as Jack's fishing buddy or hunting buddy.

Quote from: Brokeback Mountain published screenplay
LUREEN: Hello?
ENNIS: Uh, hello, this is Ennis del Mar, I uh. . . .
LUREEN: Who? Who is this?
ENNIS: Ennis del Mar. I'm an old buddy of Jack's, I. . . .
LUREEN: Jack use to mention you. You're the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that. Would have let you know, but wasn't sure about your name or address. Jack kept his friends' addresses in his head.
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

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Offline sweet_man_1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #156 on: Mar 14, 2006, 08:54 AM »
thanks patriot, i do remember her saying that.... but don't you think it odd that after all those years, and all the weeks they spent together that she would make it seem like ennis was just some old lost friend? i mean, they had a current, recurrent, long term deep friendship that jack did not hide from... my point here is that i believe that she knew why/how jack was killed and was trying to protect herself from the scandal... and ennis was a big part of the scandal, so she did acknowledge him, but as little as possible

Offline Patriot1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #157 on: Mar 14, 2006, 09:21 AM »
thanks patriot, i do remember her saying that.... but don't you think it odd that after all those years, and all the weeks they spent together that she would make it seem like ennis was just some old lost friend? i mean, they had a current, recurrent, long term deep friendship that jack did not hide from... my point here is that i believe that she knew why/how jack was killed and was trying to protect herself from the scandal... and ennis was a big part of the scandal, so she did acknowledge him, but as little as possible

To tell you the truth sweet_man_1, I don't think Lureen was concerned with scandal.  If anyone found out Lureen's husband was killed because he was gay the town's people would probably have felt sorry for HER because she had a degenerate husband. She probably would have benefited from people knowing.

I don't think she was concerned about scandal and Ennis knowing.  As soon as Ennis told her he and Jack herded sheep on Brokeback in 1963 she suddenly realized exactly who he was and she started to cry.  This was her husbands lover.  She said about Brokeback, "Well, he said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk.  (Now I know he meant it was his favorite place to get screwed ---- implied words not said)

As for not acknowledging Ennis more, would you acknowledge your lover's boyfriend any more than you had to? Your lover was cheating on you with this man on the phone. In fact, the longer she talked to Ennis the madder she got until finally she slammed the phone down on him.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Lureen found out about Jack and Randall and had Jack killed.  There must have been some ruthlessness of her father in her.  Besides, if Jack had asked her for a divorce I don't think she was about to give up half of everything she owns to Jack so he can go and live with a man.

Another thing to consider, they were married more than 20 years and had only one kid.  Their sex life must have been non-existant.  Now she knows why.  Jack was out trying to have the babies.   :o ;D

  That sure must have been a blow to her ego.

There are some straight women on the forum, maybe they can tell us how Lureen would have felt from a woman's perspective.

« Last Edit: Mar 14, 2006, 09:39 AM by Patriot1 »
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Offline sweet_man_1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #158 on: Mar 14, 2006, 09:46 AM »
well i still disagree but appreciate your disagreement... i highly doubt that after a 20 year marriage that this woman would find sollace in outing her gay husband to the redneck community

i do understand her reaction, as well as her wanting to make up a story covering up the truth about his death

Offline Patriot1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #159 on: Mar 14, 2006, 09:49 AM »
well i still disagree but appreciate your disagreement... i highly doubt that after a 20 year marriage that this woman would find sollace in outing her gay husband to the redneck community

i do understand her reaction, as well as her wanting to make up a story covering up the truth about his death

Oh I don't think SHE made up the story.  I'll bet the sheriff reported it that way.  When gay people are killed in redneck areas the cause of death is often falsified and made to look like an accident.
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Offline sweet_man_1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #160 on: Mar 14, 2006, 09:50 AM »
i also disagree that she had jack killed... it doesnt follow the story line in the book or the movie... there's enough unknown in the story (for good reason) to just toss out far flung theories... i think the more we look at the movie at face value, the better

Offline sweet_man_1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #161 on: Mar 14, 2006, 09:54 AM »
well now you are contradicting yourself... first you say laureen would get support for having a gay husband, but now you say they all need to cover it up...

again, saying that you bet the sheriff reported it that way is adding way more to the story than is intended...

to me, trying to stick to the info given and taking things at face value is much more interesting than adding external theories

enjoying the discussion...

Offline Patriot1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #162 on: Mar 14, 2006, 10:42 AM »
well now you are contradicting yourself... first you say laureen would get support for having a gay husband, but now you say they all need to cover it up...

FOR THE OFFICIAL RECORDS  So they don't have to look for who did it.  They may know who did it but if it is listed as an accident they do not have to arrest anyone for killing a "pervert."

Quote from: sweet_man_1
again, saying that you bet the sheriff reported it that way is adding way more to the story than is intended...

That is just the way it is many times in the united states.

Quote from: sweet_man_1
to me, trying to stick to the info given and taking things at face value is much more interesting than adding external theories

Then you will have to stop speculating about everything to do with Ennis's phone call to Lureen because the book, screenplay and movie tell nothing about what Lureen was thinking or why she was acting the way she was.  Any discussion about that is pure speculation and theory.

In fact, whether Jack was killed or did indeed die from an accident is also speculation and theory.  We are never told.


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Offline sweet_man_1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #163 on: Mar 14, 2006, 10:47 AM »
i give up LOL... i dont think you understand what i am saying

Offline Patriot1

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #164 on: Mar 14, 2006, 11:10 AM »
i give up LOL... i dont think you understand what i am saying

I guess not and I am sorry for that.

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Offline Titus

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #165 on: Mar 14, 2006, 02:28 PM »
Having seen the movie for the 5th time yesterday, I paid especial attention to the matter at hand.  I also noticed when baby Bobby is brought home after his birth, that the photo by the bedside is from the very night Lureen and Jack both won in their events at the Childress rodeo.  Lureen was just as enamoured of the cowboy myth as Jack and Ennis.  Jack just happened to be a winner in the right place at the right time (and damned cute too!).  Perhaps hooking up with Jack was a bit of rebellion on her part against Big Daddy.  Wonder too, if she got pregnant that first night in the back of the car.  Like many married couples they drifted apart and ended up going through the motions, she having her business and Jack his moments with Ennis.

The fateful phone call.  She was hiding something.  Rehearsing a well-crafted story.  Lots of people would have had to be told the news, some sooner than others.  No surprise she didn't know how to get in touch with Ennis.  What was striking with this viewing is that it is all business reciting the story of Jack's death.  She's done it many times before.  But her tears at learning the significance of BBM to Jack, "We herded sheep up on BBM one summer", the pieces are falling into place.  Jack had an attachment to a particular place, wanted more than anything to have his remains scattered there.  A holy place, one that was so only because of that summer.  Ennis' reaction, his painful silence, his "we was friends" all that pulls back the curtain on the emotional life of her husband she knew nothing about.  She and Jack were strangers and she realised that in the end.  Whether she knew he was gay or not is an open question.  I find it hard to believe that she didn't have some inkling, but then I talk in my sleep.

What I don't believe is that Randall had a hand in it.  At the dance when Jack, irritated at Lureen's nagging him about not dancing with her, asks LaShawn; Randall is startled to hear Jack say "would you like to dance?".  For a split second Randall thinks the invitation is for him, it's what he must be fantasing about at that moment looking into Jack's lovely blue eyes.  They got it together, Randall was the "rancher's wife" Jack confesses having an affair with.  Whoever did Jack in, if it was murder, was someone who knew or thought Jack was gay and wanted to bash the queer.  Maybe LaShawn, less likely Lureen, maybe friends of her father's, who knows.  It doesn't really matter because Jack is still dead.  All the more painful for Ennis knowing that he wouldn't be if Ennis had had the courage to be with Jack and make a life together in Wyoming.  That's the real tragedy.  Titus.
"Holding on to this moment of love and forgiveness mediated by this beautiful, loving boy.  Whose heart and soul had passed through the shadows and remained unsullied, undefeated."  The Redemption of Ennis Del Mar

Offline pierralex

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #166 on: Mar 14, 2006, 02:35 PM »
Very well said Titus, I totally agree with what you said.
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Offline jacks_key

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How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #167 on: Feb 03, 2007, 09:34 AM »
Forgive me if this was a previous thread, but...I was just reading an article in The Advocate with the BBM screenwriters.  The interviewer states, "Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered with a tire iron.  I don't necessarily believe it." 

One of the writers says that Jack's death is ambiguous even to Annie P.  "...we tell people that (we don't know) what actually happened to Jack.  But that's what Ennis thinks, and he's been set up to think that by his entire past...What is more tragic than not knowing how your loved one died?"

I actually had an argument with my sister (Del_Marvelous) about this.  She is convinced that the tire iron scene really happened, where I think that it is just what Ennis *thinks* happened.  Obviously, we will never know the truth.  I am curious to read what other people think about this.
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #168 on: Feb 03, 2007, 10:57 AM »
Here are a couple of topics that have discussed Jack's death. (I thought there were more, unless I just couldn't find them)

Jack Twist Ending
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=405.msg2564#msg2564

Oprah’s question- Did Lureen Know
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=952.msg8842#msg8842


Personally, I think Jack was murdered. An accident would be so much easier to accept (though I still can't accept the fact that Jack dies)  but my first impression was that he was murdered and I can't seem to shake that. I think the not knowing puts us in the position of becoming Ennis- never truly knowing what happened- as if we're not tormented enough watching/feeling their good and bad times over 20 years. Like Ennis, we will never truly know and will perhaps alternate between scenarios trying to come up with something we can cope with.
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Offline jacks_key

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #169 on: Feb 03, 2007, 11:00 AM »
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, LJN.   :)
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #170 on: Feb 03, 2007, 11:03 AM »
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #171 on: Feb 03, 2007, 06:42 PM »
I've read the post from the past thanks to LuvJackNasty, thanks it was great reading.   

I my very humble opinion:  Jack's death was an accident, but Ennis will never be able to reconcile the two,  a tire iron got to Jack, or it was just an accident, on a lonely road.   Ennis's fear of death at the hands of someone else prevented him from moving the relationship no further than what it was, that was whole point in this tug-o-war between the two.     

Tire irons, irrigation ditches, being left dead on a lonely road, that was Ennis's reality.  Jack could have a simple heart attack,  Ennis would have never seen it in any other way,  but "Finally they got me/ him."

Another question:  in the short story, Ennis cursed Lureen in his mind  for not being there with Jack,  Why didn't he put  himself there, most people would, "I wish I was there,"  Was Ennis so far removed that he couldn't even think at a time like this to put himself outside of Riverton, to be by Jack's side? 

All of this might have said before, forgive me, but just my thoughts running through my head.


Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #172 on: Feb 03, 2007, 07:18 PM »

Another question:  in the short story, Ennis cursed Lureen in his mind  for not being there with Jack,  Why didn't he put  himself there, most people would, "I wish I was there,"  Was Ennis so far removed that he couldn't even think at a time like this to put himself outside of Riverton, to be by Jack's side? 

All of this might have said before, forgive me, but just my thoughts running through my head.



Hmmm I have two thoughts running through my mind. The first is that by wanting to "curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road"  could be perhaps her not taking care of him. When not with Ennis, Jack was in the care of Lureen. Unless Lureen set up the attack (or accident) there was nothing she could have done to prevent him from dying. Perhaps it could also mean he had to be missing for ahile and maybe she didn't get help to him soon enough. Her voice is described as cold as snow- so perhaps by her not too emotional re-telling of her husband's death got to him. That ties into thought number 2 (and another thread -that I believe you started- on the abusive relationship) It could be the blame game- his knee jerk reaction. It could be simply a matter of "killing the messenger"; sometimes we tend to take things out on the wrong person.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

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Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #173 on: Feb 04, 2007, 09:16 PM »
t's kind of a reverse of the usual assumption - that a husband should protect his wife.

It's always struck me as ironic that in Lureen's verson Jack was knocked out and fell on his back so that he drowned in his own blood. If there'd been someone to turn him over ( as Ennis did in FNIT and as he later did to Alma) Jack would have survived.

In Ennis's imagined version, again Jack was alone, and that's presumably why Ennis resents Lureen, for not being there. Another irony when you think how rarely he was there for Jack.
« Last Edit: Feb 05, 2007, 10:04 AM by welshwitch »

Offline tpe

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #174 on: Feb 05, 2007, 09:25 AM »
Forgive me if this was a previous thread, but...I was just reading an article in The Advocate with the BBM screenwriters.  The interviewer states, "Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered with a tire iron.  I don't necessarily believe it." 

One of the writers says that Jack's death is ambiguous even to Annie P.  "...we tell people that (we don't know) what actually happened to Jack.  But that's what Ennis thinks, and he's been set up to think that by his entire past...What is more tragic than not knowing how your loved one died?"

I actually had an argument with my sister (Del_Marvelous) about this.  She is convinced that the tire iron scene really happened, where I think that it is just what Ennis *thinks* happened.  Obviously, we will never know the truth.  I am curious to read what other people think about this.

Well, Jack's end is intentionally ambiguous in the short story, although I had been told that in the movie, you never do that kind of scene unless you want the viewer to know how the person is killed.

I think the ambiguity is part of the power of the story.  It leaves us unbalanaced, as in most cases in real life.


Offline lamusica

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #175 on: Feb 27, 2007, 02:23 PM »
I agree with you, Thomas, about the ending of the movie.  Sometimes I think Jack's death was as Lureen told Ennis, adn sometimes I think it was as Ennis imagined it to have been.  The ambiguity is something I can live with; it adds to the mystery of the whole story.  We don't really need a definitive answer.
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Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #176 on: Feb 27, 2007, 05:29 PM »
I agree with you, Thomas, about the ending of the movie.  Sometimes I think Jack's death was as Lureen told Ennis, adn sometimes I think it was as Ennis imagined it to have been.  The ambiguity is something I can live with; it adds to the mystery of the whole story.  We don't really need a definitive answer.

I think to pin down a definite answer would be to rob the story of a lot of it's power.  Not knowing how Jack exactly died disturbs us.  It reminds us that life -- even at its end -- is never a certainty.

Offline edgar

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #177 on: Apr 06, 2007, 01:58 AM »

Another question:  in the short story, Ennis cursed Lureen in his mind  for not being there with Jack,  Why didn't he put  himself there, most people would, "I wish I was there,"  Was Ennis so far removed that he couldn't even think at a time like this to put himself outside of Riverton, to be by Jack's side? 


This is one of the *easier* questions about this part of the movie. If you've been around people who have experienced death, it is very very common to lash out in anger at someone. People lash out at family members for long-forgotten slights, at the clergy who perform the funeral, at the florist, at God...

When I was young and foolish, I had my students write a "personal narrative" in response to a story we had read that dealt with the death of a family member. (I can't even remember what the story was now.) It was uncanny how similar they all were--grandma dies, lots of crying; then after the funeral or some time, there is a big fight with somebody blaming somebody for the death.

I could give more examples, but Ennis is definitely reacting to the death with irrational anger, which, of course, is pretty much Ennis's way of dealing with things--until the scene in LF, which is what makes it so moving. He's no longer projecting and hiding behind anger; he's accepted the love he shared with Jack, and he accepts the loss.

As LuvJN mentioned upthread, of course the person he should be/is angry with is himself. As I pointed out in the thread "Tire Irons: Enter at your own risk," Ennis sees himself as responsible for Jack's death. He can't accept this, so he projects his anger at himself onto Lureen, Jack's other "mate."

Offline tpe

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Re: How Did Jack Really Die?
« Reply #178 on: Apr 09, 2007, 09:21 AM »
As LuvJN mentioned upthread, of course the person he should be/is angry with is himself. As I pointed out in the thread "Tire Irons: Enter at your own risk," Ennis sees himself as responsible for Jack's death. He can't accept this, so he projects his anger at himself onto Lureen, Jack's other "mate."

Wonderful post, edgar. 

I think Ennis could have looked at Jack's death as an affirmation of his own fears, but I think that he didn't.  I do think that he realized what he had missed and had now lost with Jack' death.  I guess he blamed himself also for that.


Offline lamusica

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #179 on: Apr 09, 2007, 12:17 PM »
The last time I read the SS, I became convinced that Ennis's vision of Jack's death was the true one.  When Ennis is sitting at the Twists' table, and Mr. Twist mentions Jack saying he was going to bring his rancher-neighbor up to LF, ANnie says Ennis knew at that moment that Jack was killed by the tire iron. He knew Jack was messing with another man (men), and was sure Jack had been "found out" and punished by gay-bashers in the area.  This never made an impression on me until the last time I read it.
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