Author Topic: The Significance of Names (Read 54607 times)

Angelove · « **on:** Jan 06, 2006, 02:32 PM »

Thanks for the lovely insight borger1582 regarding the significance of Ennis's name meaning "Island of the Sea" It's a perfect description of his character. However, I'm also wondering the significance of Jack's name. For me, I look into the themes of the movie, love and regret, and found him appropriately named too. The name represents his impact on Ennis's life after Brokeback mountain, especially the tragic ending.

By the way, thanks TPE for bringing up that the last words from Ennis, "Jack, I swear . . ." as well as the last scene of the movie, embodies the themes of love and regret. I wouldn't have realized it until you have mentioned it and mentioned how beautiful and cold the setting looks outside Ennis's window. With that said, Jack represents to Ennis a love that never dies, but never affirmed, a regret that Ennis has to live with for the rest of his life.

Some people might say that Jack's last name, Twist, symbolizes the cruel twist of fate at the end of the story, but for me, I see his name as a love so deep, and a regret so painful, that's it's like a jack knife that plunges deep into your chest and twists ever so excrutiatingly. I've heard my girlfriends who say that the story just hits them in the chest once they saw the shirt scene and they couldn't stop crying their eyes out. In fact, we are all on this board today because the story did the same to us, and some of us are still trying to recover from the shock of how deeply it affected us.

What do you think?

tpe · « **Reply #1 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 02:51 PM »

Hello Angelove.

I have also been thinking about whether there is any significance there is to Jack's name. It seems to me that there must be some reason behind the name.

The thought that sticks with me the most is how Alma cruelly connects 'TWIST' with 'NASTY' in her fight with Ennis. I think this is an intentional perversion of the name by the Alma character, who has every reason to hate Jack.

I like the comment you made regarding 'twist' of fate. Jack, of course, had great significance in Ennis' life, and his reappearance after the 4 years was decisive in terms of Ennis' marriage as well as in Ennis' own awakening to the great love and passion of his life (the famous kiss scene illustrates this beautifully.) The fact that Ennis could not bring himself to fully acknowledge this love as Jack had wanted it does not lessen the import that their fates were hopelessly intertwined.

I had thought about this a few weeks ago, and for some reason, I associate 'twist' with 'star-crossed'. Not so sure if this association would make sense to everybody.

stationbbm · « **Reply #2 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 03:26 PM »

TPE and Angelove: A little something to add - Annie Proulx picked the last name Twist to associate with less the relationship but more his occupation - a rodeo bull rider...In an interview she spoke directly to the occupational hazard of Jack's body being twisted, jerked and wrangled by a bull and thought "Twist" was somehow the appropriate name. That being said, I still like the methaphors (or is it similes?? my literary depth is painfully lacking).. you both connect between the name and the story. For Jack, BBM will always be the source of twisting and writhing in pain over what could have been, but never was.

stationbbm

tpe · « **Reply #3 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 03:29 PM »

Quote from: stationbbm on Jan 06, 2006, 03:26 PM

TPE and Angelove: A little something to add - Annie Proulx picked the last name Twist to associate with less the relationship but more his occupation - a rodeo bull rider...In an interview she spoke directly to the occupational hazard of Jack's body being twisted, jerked and wrangled by a bull and thought "Twist" was somehow the appropriate name. That being said, I still like the methaphors (or is it similes?? my literary depth is painfully lacking).. you both connect between the name and the story. For Jack, BBM will always be the source of twisting and writhing in pain over what could have been, but never was.

stationbbm

stationbbm, thanks so much for posting Proulx' idea behind the name. It certainly makes sense, and I knew that there had to be something behind her choice of name!

Angelove · « **Reply #4 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 03:45 PM »

Ah, that makes more sense then. Jack is a rodeo rider and although his rodeo career was shortlived, he did ride out his relationship with Ennis as long as he could, for twenty long years. Thus, it was fitting that he was a rodeo cowboy. If riding bulls can physically twist his body and get it bent out of shape, then riding out his relationship with Ennis must have twisted some thing important inside, such as twisting his hopes and love into disappointment and bitterness. This could be seen in his eyes, demeanor and stance when talks to Ennis after waiting for so many years, that crushed look in his eyes, the dissatisfied frown on his face, and the way he too is hunched over by a burden that he was not only forced to bear, and felt unbearable to bear at times. We see all this in the last scene Ennis and Jack were together.

tpe · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 04:05 PM »

Quote from: Angelove on Jan 06, 2006, 03:45 PM

Ah, that makes more sense then. Jack is a rodeo rider and although his rodeo career was shortlived, he did ride out his relationship with Ennis as long as he could, for twenty long years. Thus, it was fitting that he was a rodeo cowboy. If riding bulls can physically twist his body and get it bent out of shape, then riding out his relationship with Ennis must have twisted some thing important inside, such as twisting his hopes and love into disappointment and bitterness. This could be seen in his eyes, demeanor and stance when talks to Ennis after waiting for so many years, that crushed look in his eyes, the dissatisfied frown on his face, and the way he too is hunched over by a burden that he was not only forced to bear, and felt unbearable to bear at times. We see all this in the last scene Ennis and Jack were together.

Yes, the rodeo analogy makes perfect sense. Realizing this builds much more sympathy for the Jack character.

stationbbm · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 04:23 PM »

Quote from: Angelove on Jan 06, 2006, 03:45 PM

Ah, that makes more sense then. Jack is a rodeo rider and although his rodeo career was shortlived, he did ride out his relationship with Ennis as long as he could, for twenty long years. Thus, it was fitting that he was a rodeo cowboy. If riding bulls can physically twist his body and get it bent out of shape, then riding out his relationship with Ennis must have twisted some thing important inside, such as twisting his hopes and love into disappointment and bitterness. This could be seen in his eyes, demeanor and stance when talks to Ennis after waiting for so many years, that crushed look in his eyes, the dissatisfied frown on his face, and the way he too is hunched over by a burden that he was not only forced to bear, and felt unbearable to bear at times. We see all this in the last scene Ennis and Jack were together.

Angelove: You are really taking it out on Ennis here. Don't forget. Ennis felt led into this thing. He was a loner and I dare say, had no real understanding what he was getting into...I go back to an earlier statement I made that Ennis is truly a simple cowboy character (not well educated, not well spoken, not any real depth) who had no idea of the complexity he was stepping into...While we can feel sorry for Jack and all that he was put through, Ennis cannot be solely to blame for something he really didn't understand...Proulx's short story makes it clear that he had never really been loved and didn't have the first clue about how to respond to that...Jack can be frustrated, but was also told very succinctly by Ennis that his past was not something that would invite a lot of emotion, passion, or openness...BBM was something that grabbed both of them unexpectedly and wouldn't let go, but Ennis cannot be the culprit. Just speculating a little here..but I cannot help but wonder how all of those monthly, lonely 14-hour drives from Texas to Wyoming must have impacted Jack in a way that would conjure in terms of "what if"...perhaps Jack's more to blame for setting expectations on a relationship that wasn't ever going to develop the way he wanted?? We're all guilty of that...

stationbbm

stationbbm

Angelove · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 05:00 PM »

StationBBM, I have been hard on Ennis in my other threads, but I don't think I blamed him for anything in this one. I realize that it takes two to tango and I already know that Jack is also partially to blame since it is his choice to hang on for the ride of his life, one that he can't get off even if he wanted to. Ennis is honest and didn't promise Jack anything he couldn't give, and to some degree, he never promised Jack anything at all.

What I've realized, and perhaps for a long while now, that even though Ennis is the focus of the story and he is the character we most sympathize with, Jack is another character I sympathize with as well. Please don't get me wrong, I don't hate Ennis nor do I feel that Jack is blameless either. But the pain of waiting, in faith that your partner will one day fulfill your expectations, as stupid and crazy and immature as those expectations may be, is a force that can warp you into something bitter and jaded.

Yes, it is Jack's fault that he has expectations of Ennis, we should never have expectations or expect the people we love to fulfill them, and Ennis is not to blame for not fulfilling them. But, being a dreamer, a romantic, I cannot blame Jack as well for dreaming a happy ending with Ennis as unrealistic as that dream is. Heck, Jack even tried to leave Ennis once, to have his needs and dreams fulfilled by somebody else, but he came back to him. That's how powerful A Love that Never Dies is, powerful enough to put your life on hold for the other person, powerful enough to remain in a relationship that offers you no promises, powerful enough to put away your hopes and dreams to be with the person you love. Am I the only who finds it tragic?

tpe · « **Reply #8 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 05:25 PM »

Every great tragic character, like Ennis in this story, has a great tragic flaw. For the tragic flaw of 'Brokeback Mountain' is truly to be found in Ennis. In a sense, this is his story.

The tragic flaw in this case in not being able to decide between his deep love for Jack on one side, and, on the other side, his many fears, his perceived obligations to society as a whole, and, above all, his love for his daughters. It is a tragic flaw that all of us can relate to, because we recognize it all too well in ourselves or in other people. That is why our hearts reach out to him.

But the story of Ennis is indecipherable without Jack, who is, after all, the key to the impenetrable door that is Ennis.

Jack is a more simple, straightforward soul. He knows what he truly loves and is willing to flaunt everything else to see his love's fruition. He does not see all the other angles (like Ennis). It is his wide-open heart and his needing to be loved unfettered in return that speak to us and make us love him all the more.

These two characters are very far from perfect. This is why we deeply love them so.

stationbbm · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 05:39 PM »

TPE and Angelove:

I grow a foot taller in knowledge and understanding everytime you post...this is helpful to me and the whole forum! Appreciate you!

TGIF!
stationbbm

Angelove · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 05:58 PM »

Thanks TPE and stationbbm,

I learned a lot from reading your posts on this forum than I would have if I didn't. I now understand the true tragedy of the movie and how it is Ennis's story after all.

To be honest, I was kind of peeved at Ennis throughout the movie, but I finally felt sorry for him when Jack went away. The reason why I felt peeved at Ennis until that point was because my heart reached out for the people who suffered along with him, especially Alma, Jack and even his second girlfriend. For me, that was tragic part of the movie until the real one came along. I know that Ennis only had good intentions and did what he believed was right, but at the same time, I cannot help, but to feel that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and what a Hell the other characters had to go through, and how tragic their situation is, to love somebody and not to be fulfilled by it.

However, the road to redemption is paved with regret, one that Ennis is now forced to walk, which is the true tragedy of this movie.

tpe · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 06:13 PM »

I think we all appreciate a great discussion and wonderful exchange of ideas.

Especially because I will be busy the whole weekend watching Brokeback again with different friends! I have a lot more to bring to the table when I discuss it with them after the screenings.

Thanks!

I suspect that I shall much have more to share in this forum later this weekend or on Monday!

jerasjr · « **Reply #12 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 06:01 PM »

Jake Gyllenhaal received a note from Annie Proulx..in it she says Jack Twist refers, twist refers to the strength of thighs and butt muslcles that a bull rider has to have in order to stay on the bull. Now that certainly puts an interesting twist on his name, and the imagination is running wild.

frenchcda · « **Reply #13 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 06:14 PM »

Quote from: Angelove on Jan 06, 2006, 05:00 PM

Am I the only who finds it tragic?

AngelLove I share your views all heartily.

Cowboy Cody · « **Reply #14 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 06:23 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on Feb 26, 2006, 06:01 PM

Jake Gyllenhaal received a note from Annie Proulx..in it she says Jack Twist refers, twist refers to the strength of thighs and butt muslcles that a bull rider has to have in order to stay on the bull. Now that certainly puts an interesting twist on his name, and the imagination is running wild.

Cowboy's gonna have a meltdown over this note!

*Froggy* · « **Reply #15 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 06:28 PM »

Quote from: Cowboy Cody on Feb 26, 2006, 06:23 PM

Quote from: jerasjr on Feb 26, 2006, 06:01 PM
Jake Gyllenhaal received a note from Annie Proulx..in it she says Jack Twist refers, twist refers to the strength of thighs and butt muslcles that a bull rider has to have in order to stay on the bull. Now that certainly puts an interesting twist on his name, and the imagination is running wild.

Cowboy's gonna have a meltdown over this note!

:D :D :D :D

jerasjr · « **Reply #16 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 07:44 PM »

Well Cowboy, glad that I could bring on a meltdown... thought that it was such a good little thing to put in the discussion, and it sure did bring on the imaginings, how it related to Jack and Ennis' physical relationship... well enough of that or I'll have to leave the site prematurely.

masetane · « **Reply #17 on:** Apr 18, 2007, 04:40 PM »

Has this been discussed? I was thinking out the names the other day and wondering if anyone felt there was some meaning behind them? Sometimes authors choose them for a specific purpose..

Ennis Del Mar - "from the sea" - makes me think of how huge the ocean is but sooo much lies beneath. Goes on.

Jack Twist - well, maybe that he provides the "twist" in Ennis' life - esp in the end when I think he learns to put others before him i.e. going to his daughters wedding so please her (and him)

Thoughts?

tpe · « **Reply #18 on:** Apr 19, 2007, 07:53 AM »

Quote from: masetane on Apr 18, 2007, 04:40 PM

Has this been discussed? I was thinking out the names the other day and wondering if anyone felt there was some meaning behind them? Sometimes authors choose them for a specific purpose..

Ennis Del Mar - "from the sea" - makes me think of how huge the ocean is but sooo much lies beneath. Goes on.

Jack Twist - well, maybe that he provides the "twist" in Ennis' life - esp in the end when I think he learns to put others before him i.e. going to his daughters wedding so please her (and him)

Thoughts?

Yes, this has been discussed -- in a very old thread. One of the earliest ones, I believe! But thank you for bringing this up. I shall locate the old thread and merge this with it.

Ennis del Mar -- Island of the Sea
Jack Twist -- evokes the twisting of a bull rider in a Rodeo as he tries to keep his seat (Proulx, in her dedicatory inscription on a copy of "Close Range", presented to Jake Gyllenhaal)

masetane · « **Reply #19 on:** Apr 19, 2007, 09:32 AM »

Ah, I figured it had. See, I'm late to the game!!!

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #20 on:** Apr 19, 2007, 08:13 PM »

A Jack lifts things up and supports them much like Jack did for Ennis.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #21 on:** Apr 19, 2007, 08:22 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 19, 2007, 07:53 AM

Yes, this has been discussed -- in a very old thread. One of the earliest ones, I believe! But thank you for bringing this up. I shall locate the old thread and merge this with it.

I found one thread and have merged it

masetane · « **Reply #22 on:** Apr 19, 2007, 10:43 PM »

Thanks for merging - that was very interesting to read. Does Ennis translate to "island". That is very telling I think.

I'm completely hooked onto this movie b.c i can't get over the unrequited love.

I keep coming here to make them "alive" again and wondering how Ennis is doing... etc

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Apr 20, 2007, 07:16 AM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Apr 19, 2007, 08:22 PM

I found one thread and have merged it

Thanks LJN.

tpe · « **Reply #24 on:** Apr 20, 2007, 07:17 AM »

Quote from: masetane on Apr 19, 2007, 10:43 PM

Thanks for merging - that was very interesting to read. Does Ennis translate to "island". That is very telling I think.

I'm completely hooked onto this movie b.c i can't get over the unrequited love. I keep coming here to make them "alive" again and wondering how Ennis is doing... etc

Their names tell all, it seems.

masetane, we keep them alive inside, but yes, it spills out of us. We can't help it. That's why it is good to be here.

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Apr 20, 2007, 07:23 AM »

Quote from: masetane on Apr 19, 2007, 10:43 PM

Does Ennis translate to "island". That is very telling I think.

I think it was liam56 who noted that "ennis" derives from an old gaelic (?) word for island. I forget the details, so I could be wrong in saying that it is gaelic. I should find his old post about this...

(liam56 is an old friend of mine who was our resident linguist. Since last year, he has moved from Chicago to Italy.)

lamusica · « **Reply #26 on:** Apr 21, 2007, 09:37 AM »

I know I read this on an old thread somewhere: Jack Nasty was a saying used in the west long before this movie. It referred to anyone who was on the nasty side. It wasn't something Alma's character created. I don't know if this is true, not being from that area of the US, but someone posted that as a statement of fact. Might want to check the old thread about names.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #27 on:** Apr 21, 2007, 07:51 PM »

If I may offer my 2 cents, I've often thought about these names too. Jack, I beleive is a nickname for the more formal sounding John. descibed in the dictionary as the forth Gospel and the more modern ( a prostitutes's customer. ) Ennis is named appropriatley if it means "island" as stated. Rooted, isolated, but surrounded by threats from all sides. Society. Never knew when the big wave would come to to wash him away. It's fitting . ( on an interesting note comedian Bill Cosby's late son shared the name) Variations or references to Jack's name in the movie is interesting too. Rodeo, Jack Nasty. And my fav Jack F-ckin Twist. Pissant, and just plain Twist.
The *twist of fate* analogy sums up his life from the moment he met Ennis to the outcome of his story in the film to me. The twists and turns his life took says it all. My thoughts.

welshwitch · « **Reply #28 on:** Apr 22, 2007, 12:22 AM »

Jack is used in so many expressions too - Jack Frost, Jack-in-a-Box, Jack-of-all-Trades, every man Jack of them - you could go on for ages. Jack is a sort of everyman name but it also has a familiar ring which John doesn't so it's appropriate that Jack's father is John.

jackster · « **Reply #29 on:** Apr 22, 2007, 09:14 AM »

Alma. What about this name? Does anyone have any insights to it?

I find it interesting that another poor, rural, western movie with McMurtry ties, Hud, which coincidentally was released in 1963, also features an Alma (wonderfully played by Patricia Neal). Is there significance here?