Topic: Jack -- "You folks run you off?"

[ethan]

Watched the DVD for the forth time - every single time something got me wondered.

Jack: You from ranch people?
Ennis: I was
Jack: You folks run you off?

Please excuse my ignorance. Why did Jack ask the second question? Is there a relationship between ranch and folks running their kids off?

[greenfrog]

Pardon my ignorance, but what does "run their kids off" mean ?

[FlwrChild]

I took it to mean simply that he was inquiring as to the use of the past tense. But I must admit I also wondered if Jack was wondering if Ennis' parents ran him off for a specific reason - like maybe being gay. I always figured it was an interesting speculation but probably over-reaching of me.

[shieldmaid]

I took this exchange to mean that Jack thought Ennis had disavowed ranch life--after all, he's here getting summer work with Aguirre instead of working on the ranch--and something went wrong to make him do so.  But of course Ennis soon sets him straight on the situation with his family.  These wonderful men!!

[LuvJackNasty]

I never really thought about it. I always thought Jack was just trying to make conversation. Ennis responded "I was" so maybe Jack thought they ran him off rather than thinking they could be dead being that his own parents are alive.

[edgar]

greenfrog: to "run someone off" is to drive someone away, to force someone to leave.

Jack's question tells a little of where he's coming from. When Ennis says he "was" (past tense) from ranch people, Jack knows Ennis is not from ranch people as of now. Why not...?

Jack is an egocentric 19-year-old, and acting just like one, he sort of assumes other people are like him. He creates the world in his own image. (Hmm.. I wonder if that's how he started thinking Ennis might be attracted to a man...) Anyway, Jack can imagine that someone would no longer be from ranch people because of parent/child conflict. I don't know that Jack's dad actually "ran him off," but he made life miserable enough for Jack that Jack left at the first opportunity. The possibility that Ennis's folks are dead does not occur to Jack, since it is not in his experience.

Beyond this, Jack certainly is trying to find some common ground with Ennis. If Ennis (as expected) were to come back with some version of Jack's own story, Jack would be glad to offer and receive sympathy about the bad home situation.

Ennis comes back with something heavier than Jack expected, and Jack's world gets a little bigger. He doesn't just use Ennis's (expected) story to turn the coversation back to himself; he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

[greenfrog]

greenfrog: to "run someone off" is to drive someone away, to force someone to leave.

Thank you Edgar.  That sounds like what I had in mind.

[FlwrChild]

edgar, I liked your whole post!

[tpe]

This comment from Jack must be paired with the statement that comes before it:

Ennis: I was.

This indeed would have sounded strange to a person who would assume (judging that he was just 19 years old) that Ennis's parents would have still been alive.

If one had assumed that Ennis's parents were still alive (as I think Jack initially did), the use of the past tense in Ennis's statement would have indicated that he no longer associated with his parents; hence, he either left home or that Ennis's parents made him leave home.

Even if Jack had begun to suspect at that point that Ennis's parents were dead, it would have been awkward to have asked Ennis this directly.  Hence, Jack's question would have been the more natural reaction...

[ethan]

Thanks all for your great explanations.

It just occured to me with Jack's question. Probably for the first time in Ennis life, someone had taken an interest in knowing him.

Ennis comes back with something heavier than Jack expected, and Jack's world gets a little bigger. He doesn't just use Ennis's (expected) story to turn the coversation back to himself; he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

Could not agree more.

[tpe]

It just occured to me with Jack's question. Probably for the first time in Ennis life, someone had taken an interest in knowing him.

A beautiful thought.

It is most likely true.

[LuvJackNasty]

It just occured to me with Jack's question. Probably for the first time in Ennis life, someone had taken an interest in knowing him.

A beautiful thought.

It is most likely true.

Yes Ethan a beautiful thought.

[ethan]

Thanks, tpe & LuvJackNasty.

Piece by piece, it also helps explain why Jack has a profound impact on Ennis. I just appreciate the details and dialogue written by Ms. Proulx and the screenwriters.

The economy of film is brilliant. And every BBM viewing is a new discovery.

[LuvJackNasty]

And every new discovery- no matter how big or small- deepens this story. This is one truly amazing story and movie.

[dalemidex]

It just occured to me with Jack's question. Probably for the first time in Ennis life, someone had taken an interest in knowing him.

A beautiful thought.

It is most likely true.

Makes one wonder about the relationship between Alma and Ennis before BBM.  As much as I like the thought that Jack was the first person to ever really show interest in who Ennis really was, that first person should  have been Alma.  They were engaged by that point, and that should have been the person that Ennis was closest to.  Perhaps it was.  Or perhaps it was more a relationship built on "that's just what you do".  Sometimes people, especially ones who are younger or have a less well developed sense of self and are inexperienced find themselves linking to the first person who takes a liking to them.  More a matter of marrying "good enough" rather than actual love. 

It's a two wya street, too.  Perhaps Ennis didn't open up as much to Alma as he did to Jack.  Hmm...

[ethan]

Good point, dalemidex.

I also think the role that Ennis played in his relationship with Alma could be different as well. This sounds stereotypical but I think for Ennis - he needed to be the macho man and not showing a sign of weakness.

[greenfrog]

Good point, dalemidex.

I also think the role that Ennis played in his relationship with Alma could be different as well. This sounds stereotypical but I think for Ennis - he needed to be the macho man and not showing a sign of weakness.

That's Ennis all over.

[Rønnaug]

greenfrog: to "run someone off" is to drive someone away, to force someone to leave.

Jack's question tells a little of where he's coming from. When Ennis says he "was" (past tense) from ranch people, Jack knows Ennis is not from ranch people as of now. Why not...?

Jack is an egocentric 19-year-old, and acting just like one, he sort of assumes other people are like him. He creates the world in his own image. (Hmm.. I wonder if that's how he started thinking Ennis might be attracted to a man...) Anyway, Jack can imagine that someone would no longer be from ranch people because of parent/child conflict. I don't know that Jack's dad actually "ran him off," but he made life miserable enough for Jack that Jack left at the first opportunity. The possibility that Ennis's folks are dead does not occur to Jack, since it is not in his experience.

Beyond this, Jack certainly is trying to find some common ground with Ennis. If Ennis (as expected) were to come back with some version of Jack's own story, Jack would be glad to offer and receive sympathy about the bad home situation.

Ennis comes back with something heavier than Jack expected, and Jack's world gets a little bigger. He doesn't just use Ennis's (expected) story to turn the coversation back to himself; he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

I had never thought any of it before... but I think you are right Edgar and that last part you wrote, Jack really is a wonderful human beeing

[tpe]

Good point, dalemidex.

I also think the role that Ennis played in his relationship with Alma could be different as well. This sounds stereotypical but I think for Ennis - he needed to be the macho man and not showing a sign of weakness.

Indeed, dalemidex raises a good point.

For a lot of teenage males, having a girllfriend was de rigeur in one's passage through puberty.  You did one at your own peril, as far as peer affirmation and expectations were concerned.  Ennis probably did indeed feel that this was the proper thing to do in his situation, especially since his brother's marriage probably pointed him to the need to settle down as part of the natural way of establishing oneself in society.

But did Alma treat this in a similar fashion (i.e., as part of what was expected of her)?  Even if true, she perhaps did love Ennis enough to show some depth of affection for him.  This is very probable...

 

[tpe]

******

Ennis comes back with something heavier than Jack expected, and Jack's world gets a little bigger. He doesn't just use Ennis's (expected) story to turn the coversation back to himself; he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

I had never thought any of it before... but I think you are right Edgar and that last part you wrote, Jack really is a wonderful human beeing

Indeed, this is a most wonderful observation from edgar.

[edgar]

******

Ennis comes back with something heavier than Jack expected, and Jack's world gets a little bigger. He doesn't just use Ennis's (expected) story to turn the coversation back to himself; he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

I had never thought any of it before... but I think you are right Edgar and that last part you wrote, Jack really is a wonderful human beeing

Indeed, this is a most wonderful observation from edgar.

Aw, shucks. 

[tpe]

edgar.  It IS a beautiful observation.

he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

[welshwitch]

Yes, it is, and it's also true that many people marry out of a sense of conformity - one doesn't get the sense of any real closeness between Ennis and Alma - it's all about work and money and childcare. Jack's ability to sympathize/empathize and see a similarity between them is what starts the whole thing off. I think Jack is looking for ways into Ennis's head and this question is one attempt to find out what's in there. Then he finds out more than he expected - the question's a good one, because Ennis the uncommunicative and monosyllabic starts to open up. And as it turns out, Ennis is homeless and rootless, and Jack can understand that, because in effect his father has "run him off" by his lack of love.   

[donnaread]

Beyond this, Jack certainly is trying to find some common ground with Ennis. If Ennis (as expected) were to come back with some version of Jack's own story, Jack would be glad to offer and receive sympathy about the bad home situation.

Ennis comes back with something heavier than Jack expected, and Jack's world gets a little bigger. He doesn't just use Ennis's (expected) story to turn the coversation back to himself; he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

Absolutely, Edgar!  When seeing the movie the second time (after finding out about Jack's relationship with his dad the first time I saw it),  I knew why he asked if Ennis was from ranch people...to find common ground, but he finds out Ennis' story is even WORSE than his own.  And even though as you said he is "an egocentric 19 yr old", he immediately feels empathy for Ennis "Sheeit, that's hard."  I think this is when Jack started feeling "something" for Ennis.  Maybe at first it was only empathy, but they were both so alone in the world (in spite of Ennis being engaged to Alma, probably something he felt he had no choice in).  Remember, Ennis  had no home, he was essentially homeless...his brother got married "no more room for me" he tells Jack and he wound up on Brokeback Mountain...not for just the job, but because he had nowhere else to go. I think it would have been a miracle if they HADN'T been drawn to each other.

Donna

[mactwck]

Although this is OT, I do not think that Ennis and Alme were that close.  By the campfire Ennis is telling Jack about his family history, opening up, he admits that he has not spoken that much in a year, obviously not to Alma, but he does to Jack.  Maybe because of this early question at the bar from Jack, and Ennis is touched that Jack listened to him and remembered.

[karen1129]

Although this is OT, I do not think that Ennis and Alme were that close.  By the campfire Ennis is telling Jack about his family history, opening up, he admits that he has not spoken that much in a year, obviously not to Alma, but he does to Jack.  Maybe because of this early question at the bar from Jack, and Ennis is touched that Jack listened to him and remembered.

I don't think either one of them had ever had a close friend.  Someone to just talk to.
Jack felt for Ennis and his situation and probably gave him more attention than any human
being ever had. 

[proulxfan]

greenfrog: to "run someone off" is to drive someone away, to force someone to leave.

Jack's question tells a little of where he's coming from. When Ennis says he "was" (past tense) from ranch people, Jack knows Ennis is not from ranch people as of now. Why not...?

Jack is an egocentric 19-year-old, and acting just like one, he sort of assumes other people are like him. He creates the world in his own image. (Hmm.. I wonder if that's how he started thinking Ennis might be attracted to a man...) Anyway, Jack can imagine that someone would no longer be from ranch people because of parent/child conflict. I don't know that Jack's dad actually "ran him off," but he made life miserable enough for Jack that Jack left at the first opportunity. The possibility that Ennis's folks are dead does not occur to Jack, since it is not in his experience.

Beyond this, Jack certainly is trying to find some common ground with Ennis. If Ennis (as expected) were to come back with some version of Jack's own story, Jack would be glad to offer and receive sympathy about the bad home situation.

Ennis comes back with something heavier than Jack expected, and Jack's world gets a little bigger. He doesn't just use Ennis's (expected) story to turn the coversation back to himself; he actually starts to feel some of Ennis's pain. The beginning of their real friendship.

Been away for a while. Had never really given too much thought to these lines, though I had noticed them. Wonderful post, Edgar! Gives me something more to think about next time I watch. And this scene does sketch out just how lonely these two boys were, which in Ennis's case at least is odd as he is engaged to Alma. They've been waiting for each other their whole lives up to this point.

[edgar]

*snip*. And this scene does sketch out just how lonely these two boys were, which in Ennis's case at least is odd as he is engaged to Alma. They've been waiting for each other their whole lives up to this point.

And from keren1129:

"I don't think either one of them had ever had a close friend.  Someone to just talk to.
Jack felt for Ennis and his situation and probably gave him more attention than any human
being ever had."

Yep, you bet. This is my thing about always saying that, beyond and I think more important than the sexual relationship was a deep and genuine friendship of the two guys. Ennis just doesn't talk. His "courtship" with Alma probably consisted of sitting in the living room with her parents present and watching TV. Then stealing a kiss out on the front porch. Maybe sitting next to each other in church a few times. But never really talking--at least not Ennis. Alma probably did, and Ennis was probably happy to listen.

As mentioned, Ennis is forced out of his home. Is it possible that he proposes to Alma partly just to have some sort of a concept of home and family in his future? Even though they don't have a physical house, at least Ennis has the idea, which he shares with Jack: "Me and Alma gettin' married soon as I come down."--using the Brokeback money for the first month's rent.
But Alma doesn't *know* Ennis, any more than Cassie ever did. Btw, fwiw, I think Ennis did come to love Alma. It is possible to love more than one person at a time.

Jack starts getting to know Ennis there in the bar, and it continues up on the mountain. The talking is the necessary prelude to the FNIT. According to the story, after the first night of their drinking and talking, Ennis feels like he's had the best time of his life and could "paw the white out of the moon."



 

[MississaugaRed]

*snip*. And this scene does sketch out just how lonely these two boys were, which in Ennis's case at least is odd as he is engaged to Alma. They've been waiting for each other their whole lives up to this point.

And from keren1129:

"I don't think either one of them had ever had a close friend.  Someone to just talk to.
Jack felt for Ennis and his situation and probably gave him more attention than any human
being ever had."

Yep, you bet. This is my thing about always saying that, beyond and I think more important than the sexual relationship was a deep and genuine friendship of the two guys. Ennis just doesn't talk.   snip ....

Jack starts getting to know Ennis there in the bar, and it continues up on the mountain. The talking is the necessary prelude to the FNIT. According to the story, after the first night of their drinking and talking, Ennis feels like he's had the best time of his life and could "paw the white out of the moon."

 

Edgar, your posts here are wonderful, as always, I love how you seem to come at these moments from a whole new perspective.  Great observations throughout on what seemed like such a simple enough scene on the surface.  Just two guys getting to know each other over a small talk and a few beers.  But as you perceived, this exchange serves to both connect them and widen their views of the world.  Lovely. 

Had always before disassociated this first time talking at the bar with their time up on the mountain, but you make the link seem so clear now.

One of my favorite images of Jack, ever, is on that last day on Brokeback.  He's finished saddling the horses and looks up at a brooding Ennis sitting alone in the meadow.  There is a look of such understanding and tenderness in Jack's eyes in that moment before he walks up the hill to Ennis.  A gentleness in his voice when he says "time to get going, cowboy".

I always thought Jack was reacting on his instincts, understanding deep inside the simple fact that Ennis was desperately torn up over having their time together cut short without warning. That he knew there was more emotion roiling inside of Enns then he could stand. There is that of course, but in light of what you've all just said maybe it was more?

Maybe he understood that once again Ennis was being "run off".  Run off from the precious few weeks out of his lonely life where he was allowed to be truly happy.  They are both being run off again, by Aguirre, and not for the last time in Jack's case.  

Their whole lives - past, present and future - these two men are being run off.  Run off from their dreams, their aspirations.  Run off from living life as their nature begs them to live.  Run off of any chance of a life together.  They're run off by bad fortune and intolerance; by narrow minds and rigid social mores;  and ultimately by their own choices and fears, I guess.

You're all  making me think that "your folks run you off" was just the beginning ....  :'(

[NoReins]

*snip*. And this scene does sketch out just how lonely these two boys were, which in Ennis's case at least is odd as he is engaged to Alma. They've been waiting for each other their whole lives up to this point.

And from keren1129:

"I don't think either one of them had ever had a close friend.  Someone to just talk to.
Jack felt for Ennis and his situation and probably gave him more attention than any human
being ever had."

Yep, you bet. This is my thing about always saying that, beyond and I think more important than the sexual relationship was a deep and genuine friendship of the two guys. Ennis just doesn't talk.   snip ....

Jack starts getting to know Ennis there in the bar, and it continues up on the mountain. The talking is the necessary prelude to the FNIT. According to the story, after the first night of their drinking and talking, Ennis feels like he's had the best time of his life and could "paw the white out of the moon."

 

Edgar, your posts here are wonderful, as always, I love how you seem to come at these moments from a whole new perspective.  Great observations throughout on what seemed like such a simple enough scene on the surface.  Just two guys getting to know each other over a small talk and a few beers.  But as you perceived, this exchange serves to both connect them and widen their views of the world.  Lovely. 

Had always before disassociated this first time talking at the bar with their time up on the mountain, but you make the link seem so clear now.

One of my favorite images of Jack, ever, is on that last day on Brokeback.  He's finished saddling the horses and looks up at a brooding Ennis sitting alone in the meadow.  There is a look of such understanding and tenderness in Jack's eyes in that moment before he walks up the hill to Ennis.  A gentleness in his voice when he says "time to get going, cowboy".

I always thought Jack was reacting on his instincts, understanding deep inside the simple fact that Ennis was desperately torn up over having their time together cut short without warning. That he knew there was more emotion roiling inside of Enns then he could stand. There is that of course, but in light of what you've all just said maybe it was more?

Maybe he understood that once again Ennis was being "run off".  Run off from the precious few weeks out of his lonely life where he was allowed to be truly happy.  They are both being run off again, by Aguirre, and not for the last time in Jack's case.  

Their whole lives - past, present and future - these two men are being run off.  Run off from their dreams, their aspirations.  Run off from living life as their nature begs them to live.  Run off of any chance of a life together.  They're run off by bad fortune and intolerance; by narrow minds and rigid social mores;  and ultimately by their own choices and fears, I guess.

You're all  making me think that "your folks run you off" was just the beginning ....  :'(

You know, it ain't right that your posts can make me choke up like this :'( Any more discussions like this and I'm going to be crying from the very first meeting.....