Topic: Jack -- "You folks run you off?"

[BBBOY]

This is the first I have seen of this thread. I have to explore it more. There seems to be some very profound observations here.

[tpe]

Thanks for "resurrecting" this thread.  I reread a few of the later posts and everything comes back to me as if they were posted just yesterday.  Thanks.  What treasures lie buried in the older threads such as this.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

You bet.  I want to reread some of the earlier post. 

[aintfoolin]

I never really thought about it. I always thought Jack was just trying to make conversation. Ennis responded "I was" so maybe Jack thought they ran him off rather than thinking they could be dead being that his own parents are alive.

I agree with this.LJN. Jack was trying to make conversation, Learned alot with those few questions, Ennis had rodeoed himself a ferw times when he had the money, that  they were both "ranch people" but, Jack and Ennis' fathers were *hard* , decisive men. Perhaps in Ennis's home, a young man reaches a certain age, and can't help provide for themself or the family they are branded * no count* by these type of cold hearted men and are told to get out and start a life, be a man!  I mean this is a man, who takes his kids to see a mutilated body. This was  no trip to the zoo folks.  May have been involved in the murder... Thought all rodeo guys were f--ck ups, Prehaps they are'nt men enough for him either.  It is concievible for Jack to think Ennis to be run off by his parents. Ennis carried every thing he owned in a paper bag!

 

[welshwitch]

Jack's assumption that a family will cheerfully evict a son from the family home must have been based on his own assumptios about his father - but I'm not sure why. Clearly John Twist can't manage his own land by himself and apparently didn't encourage Jack to rodeo, so would he have urged him out? Ennis's parents don't live long enough for the same situation to come about, but if they had, given that he has an elder brother, maybe Ennis wouldn't have been needed to help once he grew up. As it was his sister and brother evidently think they've done their bit for him and don't want him around once they marry. 

Somehow this whole thing seems a throwback to the past, when it was practical, once you were an adult, to " light out for the territories" and make you own way, and that's what young men often did.

[lamusica]

I think, too, that perhaps Jack was thrown out by his father at one time or another.  He would not have been surprised to hear that Ennis had been thrown out, too.  Maybe he did something, or the old man found out he did something that he didn't approve of and he tossed Jack out until his mother begged to let him back.  Conjecture, of course, but a strong possibility considering the type of person old man Twist was -- someone who didn't understand his son and didn't approve of anything he was or did. Perhaps his old man discovered something that pointed to Jack's homosexuality that led him to turn on him.

[BBBOY]

Jack's assumption that a family will cheerfully evict a son from the family home must have been based on his own assumptios about his father - but I'm not sure why. Clearly John Twist can't manage his own land by himself and apparently didn't encourage Jack to rodeo, so would he have urged him out? Ennis's parents don't live long enough for the same situation to come about, but if they had, given that he has an elder brother, maybe Ennis wouldn't have been needed to help once he grew up. As it was his sister and brother evidently think they've done their bit for him and don't want him around once they marry. 

Somehow this whole thing seems a throwback to the past, when it was practical, once you were an adult, to " light out for the territories" and make you own way, and that's what young men often did.

The whole primogenture thing, oldest son inherits all and the rest have to fend for themselves. Jack was an only child though. I suspect Jack's father was constantly throwing him off the property and then begging him, in a remote way, to come back to help. A stud duck who was actually a lame duck.

[aintfoolin]

 If this is true then how very sad. There was no way to please the old coot. This man abused  and humiliated Jack as a small child, then totally rejects  him in his teen years, then wants to claim his ashes in the end! I agree too with lamusica above when she says it was probably Mrs. Twist who helped Jack when this heartless person threw him out constantly as BBBoy said. The man just did'nt like his own son. Don't appear to like himself that much either. Lame duck indeed.

I'm curious to know the law concerning dependent children in rural Wyoming ,when the Del Mar children were orphaned. Or was there one? Were children left to fend for themselves like this? Surley not. Apparently the brother and sister  threw Ennis out after they married, but where did they live all that time? From they way Ennis tells it they stayed together some how ,but where?

I feel also Jack asked the question out of concern. It's kind of a personal question. When this happens Ennis talks, Jack listens.  How did you get here? and why? could be spin offs of this question, just like when Jack asked " Did your brother and sister do right by you? He seemed to sense that Ennis had been rejected and/or abused  in some by way of Ennis's *inward* manner. In both instances, Jack got alot of information about Ennis and brought the matter of trust into play. This  brought them closer together on BBM . All this rejection  in common did too. MHO.

[welshwitch]

It seems a very reasonable way for them to react if both are "rejects" - Jack says he can't please his father and Ennis says he has no father or mother, and later that his sister and brother have left him to fend for himself. So each of them knows that the other has had a fairly loveless existence. Both of them are outsiders too - Ennis with no home and no family members who care enough to offer him a home, Jack an unsuccessful rodeoer ( does that word exist?) whose father disapproves of everything he does. Makes it more likley that they may feel closer to each other after spending time together than might otherwise have been the case.

[manhattangirl]

I love this scene and the way Jack feels Ennis out, he's stuck with this guy for a couple of months, so let this guy know I've been doing this for two years, and let me tell him about our boss.  "the sheep got roasted last year,  and he blamed me, he's a real SOB."

Then he asked Ennis about his experience did they have anything in common did he rodeo, "yeah when I have the entry fee in my pocket", Jack seem to relate to that, yeah he's broke like me. 

And now let's talk family "you from ranch people?" Ennis answered "I was" , Jack ask him the next question because if he's from ranch folks, then why is he here.  "your folks run you off?".  Ranches are usually run by fathers then their sons.  To Jack Ennis must have done something bad to be here working with him, like a prodigal son.  But when Ennis relates the story of his parents death,  Jack must think, "Gees its worse than my story." 

[aintfoolin]

 Yep, your right MG, as usual,  but did Ennis even know what *asphixiate* means? . I suppose this commonality of background and getting "run off" and rejected by those closest to them contributed to Jack's approach to Ennis, we see the beginning of Jack getting an " inside track" into Ennis's head. This *feeling out * scene gave Jack some insight into this quiet cowboy. At least we see they did teach Ennis how to cook. befoer they gave him the boot.That's handy.

 Here we see the essence of Jack's personality shine through. He is a * I'll lead the way", I'll show you how , I've been there,type of guy, with just a touch of arrogance thrown in for good measure. This is clearly seen in the next scene where Jack says  over-confidently" I doubt there's a philly that can throw me' as he struggles to get the low startle point horse under control. Ennis's ( your so full of sh-t expression) after Jack says "We better git, unless you wanna sit around and tie knots all day" was telling, as if Ennis is a nelly or less experienced in this type of venture. Ennis's simple common sense measures pay off  later, as we see.

This is what I got from that scene. Fortunatly they worked very well together, but Jack did get thrown off the horse later at which time Ennis brought it back home to Jack while he was straightening the tent!  Jack's response? "She got lucky"  Yeah ,right Jack! Your ass got thrown cowboy!

[BBBOY]

It seems a very reasonable way for them to react if both are "rejects" - Jack says he can't please his father and Ennis says he has no father or mother, and later that his sister and brother have left him to fend for himself. So each of them knows that the other has had a fairly loveless existence. Both of them are outsiders too - Ennis with no home and no family members who care enough to offer him a home, Jack an unsuccessful rodeoer ( does that word exist?) whose father disapproves of everything he does. Makes it more likley that they may feel closer to each other after spending time together than might otherwise have been the case.

Spot on girl! While not that well established in the SS, we see the loneliness and isolation of both these boys well in the movie. I think what is clear in both the movie and the SS is that these are two boy/men on their own trying to find their way through life at an early age. There is nothing there to guide them except their own will to survive. When the "force of nature" hits them it is all they can do to try and get through it. This story, this concept just rips me apart when ever I consider it.

[tpe]

Jack's assumption that a family will cheerfully evict a son from the family home must have been based on his own assumptios about his father - but I'm not sure why. Clearly John Twist can't manage his own land by himself and apparently didn't encourage Jack to rodeo, so would he have urged him out? Ennis's parents don't live long enough for the same situation to come about, but if they had, given that he has an elder brother, maybe Ennis wouldn't have been needed to help once he grew up. As it was his sister and brother evidently think they've done their bit for him and don't want him around once they marry. 

Somehow this whole thing seems a throwback to the past, when it was practical, once you were an adult, to " light out for the territories" and make you own way, and that's what young men often did.

I also thought of the same thing.  He probably thought that he had something in common here with Ennis -- about having a tough time with his folks.  Jack asked it matter-of-fact: as if it wwre a common occurence...

[tpe]

The whole primogenture thing, oldest son inherits all and the rest have to fend for themselves. Jack was an only child though. I suspect Jack's father was constantly throwing him off the property and then begging him, in a remote way, to come back to help. A stud duck who was actually a lame duck.

This is an interesting thought.  It echoes Patriot1's belief that the father was simply disappointed at the son for not being able to help enough at the ranch.

[tpe]

I love this scene and the way Jack feels Ennis out, he's stuck with this guy for a couple of months, so let this guy know I've been doing this for two years, and let me tell him about our boss.  "the sheep got roasted last year,  and he blamed me, he's a real SOB."

Then he asked Ennis about his experience did they have anything in common did he rodeo, "yeah when I have the entry fee in my pocket", Jack seem to relate to that, yeah he's broke like me. 

And now let's talk family "you from ranch people?" Ennis answered "I was" , Jack ask him the next question because if he's from ranch folks, then why is he here.  "your folks run you off?".  Ranches are usually run by fathers then their sons.  To Jack Ennis must have done something bad to be here working with him, like a prodigal son.  But when Ennis relates the story of his parents death,  Jack must think, "Gees its worse than my story." 

Nicely said, manhattangirl.  Jack must have guessed something bad at Ennis's being there.  And it does throw some light at Jack's own difficulties and how he viewed them.

[tpe]

Yep, your right MG, as usual,  but did Ennis even know what *asphixiate* means? . I suppose this commonality of background and getting "run off" and rejected by those closest to them contributed to Jack's approach to Ennis, we see the beginning of Jack getting an " inside track" into Ennis's head. This *feeling out * scene gave Jack some insight into this quiet cowboy. At least we see they did teach Ennis how to cook. befoer they gave him the boot.That's handy.

 Here we see the essence of Jack's personality shine through. He is a * I'll lead the way", I'll show you how , I've been there,type of guy, with just a touch of arrogance thrown in for good measure. This is clearly seen in the next scene where Jack says  over-confidently" I doubt there's a philly that can throw me' as he struggles to get the low startle point horse under control. Ennis's ( your so full of sh-t expression) after Jack says "We better git, unless you wanna sit around and tie knots all day" was telling, as if Ennis is a nelly or less experienced in this type of venture. Ennis's simple common sense measures pay off  later, as we see.

This is what I got from that scene. Fortunatly they worked very well together, but Jack did get thrown off the horse later at which time Ennis brought it back home to Jack while he was straightening the tent!  Jack's response? "She got lucky"  Yeah ,right Jack! Your ass got thrown cowboy!

Jack certainly did seem to be much more confident than Ennnis -- and not just because he had been there before.  He really went out of his way to draw Ennis out. I guess his line of questioning at the bar could be an attempt by Jack to establish an "I've been there before" with regard to Ennis's own experiences.

[tamlynn]

I always wondered about how 3 kids made it without parents too.  I don't know if it's in the book, but if Ennis was 9 or 10, his brother maybe 12, sister maybe near 16 or 17.  Because of her age, Wyoming might have allowed them to stay on together.  If she was an adult in Wyoming at 17 in the 50's, it would help clear this up.

When she got married, the two boys went together and lived on another ranch as ranch hands.  Ennis made it through 1 year of high school til the truck broke down.  if his brother got married let's say at 18, that would put Ennis at 15 or 16.  Ennis at that age could continue working on a ranch, then took on the Brokeback job at 19 for money to marry Alma.  I think the brother and sister did admirably.  They did all they could to survive and also raise Ennis.  I give them so much credit.  I think they showed tremendous caring and responsibility in light of what they were left with.

I also think that the girl getting married coincided right along with the ranch going back to the bank.  She had little choice.  If they lost the property, she would have been in a bad way without getting married.  The boys could make it together.  Gotta give them all credit.  Think of the young minds trying to figure all this out and still take care of Ennis.

I know the book says it differently, but Ang made it sound like Ennis's dad might have done the job on Earl.  Wanted for murder, he and his wife took off.  In my book, they didn't die any more than Jack died.  From the movie alone, we have no proof that Jack is dead or that Ennis's parents are dead.  We have a postcard marked DECEASED (that anyone could have done) and assumptions. 

"1 curve in 43 miles and they miss it..." that's a story, a simple statement without facts.  Ennis is letting us and Jack assume the rest.  And, we're supposed to assume they died wrapped around a telephone pole.  On a road they knew well.  His dad did murder, ran for his life (the coward), left $24, the ranch and 3 kids to save his own hide.  Let's come down hard on him, not Ennis's siblings.  The kids are heroes, regardless of what happened.  Ennis was a good person, a hard worker, he was not a scumbag, thanks to his siblings, who I believe cared about him. 

Can we hear an applause now for Ennis's sister and brother?  They are wounded heroes.

[tpe]

I always wondered about how 3 kids made it without parents too.  I don't know if it's in the book, but if Ennis was 9 or 10, his brother maybe 12, sister maybe near 16 or 17.  Because of her age, Wyoming might have allowed them to stay on together.  If she was an adult in Wyoming at 17 in the 50's, it would help clear this up.

When she got married, the two boys went together and lived on another ranch as ranch hands.  Ennis made it through 1 year of high school til the truck broke down.  if his brother got married let's say at 18, that would put Ennis at 15 or 16.  Ennis at that age could continue working on a ranch, then took on the Brokeback job at 19 for money to marry Alma.  I think the brother and sister did admirably.  They did all they could to survive and also raise Ennis.  I give them so much credit.  I think they showed tremendous caring and responsibility in light of what they were left with.

I also think that the girl getting married coincided right along with the ranch going back to the bank.  She had little choice.  If they lost the property, she would have been in a bad way without getting married.  The boys could make it together.  Gotta give them all credit.  Think of the young minds trying to figure all this out and still take care of Ennis.

I know the book says it differently, but Ang made it sound like Ennis's dad might have done the job on Earl.  Wanted for murder, he and his wife took off.  In my book, they didn't die any more than Jack died.  From the movie alone, we have no proof that Jack is dead or that Ennis's parents are dead.  We have a postcard marked DECEASED (that anyone could have done) and assumptions. 

"1 curve in 43 miles and they miss it..." that's a story, a simple statement without facts.  Ennis is letting us and Jack assume the rest.  And, we're supposed to assume they died wrapped around a telephone pole.  On a road they knew well.  His dad did murder, ran for his life (the coward), left $24, the ranch and 3 kids to save his own hide.  Let's come down hard on him, not Ennis's siblings.  The kids are heroes, regardless of what happened.  Ennis was a good person, a hard worker, he was not a scumbag, thanks to his siblings, who I believe cared about him. 

Can we hear an applause now for Ennis's sister and brother?  They are wounded heroes.

I think the death of Ennis's parents happened a bit later -- certainly a bit after the Earl and Rich incident, when Ennis was 9.    The the brother was probably in his early to middle teens when that happened.

Since Ennis was 19 in 63 and since this occured soon after his brother's marriage, the brother could not have been 18.  20s is probably more likely.

The issue about Jack's death is I think distinct from the death of Ennis's parents.  I don't think the book or the film questioned that Ennis's parents are truly dead, even though we are not certain how Jack really died.  Moreover, we are not at all certain whether Ennis's father had anything to do with Earl's murder -- it was simply Ennis's supposition, with no facts to back it up.

As for Ennis's brother and sister, they did the best they could, under such circumstances, although both finally opted for a way out through marriage. 

The sister certainly did not think of having her brothers move with her when she moved to Casper.  I guess this is not unexpected, although I still found it a bit harsh and abrupt.  She probably assumed that the boys could fend for themselves...  But her actions were not particularly heroic, IMO.

[manhattangirl]

When Jack met Ennis he was 19,  and this was his second summer working for Aguirre, which makes him about 17 when he started.  These two never finished school, working was the only option from them.  Ennis not going with his sister was not strange, he stay with his brother, he wasn't a child anymore, he had to make his way. 

Today's world wouldn't let a child on his own before 18, the system is much different now than it was than, When they lost their home, they had to go.  I don't think they had social workers to help through the transition, nor do I think they would seek one, they took care of themselves, with maybe a distrust of the system, government had no place in the lives of these people.       

This  is one of the reasons why I think Ennis married Alma so young, this is what you did.   I really don't think it was out of love, but of acceptance.   He did what his brother and sister did he married.

Ennis was not a dreamer, or a visionary, he wasn't like Jack, the world was where he lived.  He didn't see past what he knew.

Jack threw a monkey wrench in the whole thing,  Ennis fell in love, and saw a world beyond him, but too afraid to enter it.   

[LuvJackNasty]

  Ennis fell in love, and saw a world beyond him, but too afraid to enter it.   

Beautifully stated.

[tpe]

When Jack met Ennis he was 19,  and this was his second summer working for Aguirre, which makes him about 17 when he started.  These two never finished school, working was the only option from them.  Ennis not going with his sister was not strange, he stay with his brother, he wasn't a child anymore, he had to make his way. 

Today's world wouldn't let a child on his own before 18, the system is much different now than it was than, When they lost their home, they had to go.  I don't think they had social workers to help through the transition, nor do I think they would seek one, they took care of themselves, with maybe a distrust of the system, government had no place in the lives of these people.       

This  is one of the reasons why I think Ennis married Alma so young, this is what you did.   I really don't think it was out of love, but of acceptance.   He did what his brother and sister did he married.

Ennis was not a dreamer, or a visionary, he wasn't like Jack, the world was where he lived.  He didn't see past what he knew.

Jack threw a monkey wrench in the whole thing,  Ennis fell in love, and saw a world beyond him, but too afraid to enter it.   

In a sense, one would think that in the old days, families were much more closely knit, as it still is in many parts of the world.  I think this is still particularly true in the more conservative areas in the US, where family comes first before anything else.  The notion of individualism and independence is relatively new to the US, borne out of the improvements in communication and travel that marked the 1950s onward. 

Hence, I still think that Ennis's sister was not particularly excused by her sudden jettisoning of the two brothers.  She probably thought that as young teenagers, they could somehow get by without a sister serving as a "burden".  After all, men in that society probably had more options available to them.  But it would seem from the story and the movie that she didn't really seem to help them out after her marriage.  This may not be entirely true (she did after all attend Ennis's wedding), but one can't get over the thought that she married partly to escape her brothers.

I do agree that marriage was more about acceptance than about love.  It was what was expected of them.  It was a way of expressing one's independence and a sign of joining society at large.

[manhattangirl]

There is a hint of sadness when Ennis spoke of his brother marrying, and there was no room for him.  This feeling of abandonment, and aloneness is something Ennis did carry with him.  Like some kind of companion that lurk behind him where ever he went, and who ever he was with. 

And stayed with him all through his life.  At the end he lived alone, in a trailer in the middle of nowhere. 

[tpe]

There is a hint of sadness when Ennis spoke of his brother marrying, and there was no room for him.  This feeling of abandonment, and aloneness is something Ennis did carry with him.  Like some kind of companion that lurk behind him where ever he went, and who ever he was with. 

And stayed with him all through his life.  At the end he lived alone, in a trailer in the middle of nowhere. 

Yes, I did sense that strong sense of abandonment when Ennis mentioned his brother marrying: "no room for me".  And the feeling did stay with him long after that.  Alma herself mentioned it in the scene when she was trying to convince Ennis to move into town...

[tamlynn]

I still think the sister was a hero.  She took care of Ennis and stuck with and helped her brothers probably right up til losing the ranch.  She had no choice but to get married at that point.  She had to save herself.  She was down to no choices.  Why shouldn't Ennis's brother take over?  Why does it always have to end up on a woman's shoulders.  What was she supposed to do?  She was a child herself and desperate.  Boys could work on ranches.  A woman could be easily endangered and targeted.  The three of them knew that.  She did nothing wrong.  There was nothing more she could do for her brothers.  Moving into another man's home, we know nothing of her husband's temperament and ability to contribute to or support her brothers.  She was in a dangerous situation.  I've been there.  Alone and broke is not good for a young woman who hasn't got even a month's rent to her name.  It takes more than getting a job.  It's getting safe shelter that's problematic because it has to come first.  Impossible.  Marriage in those days looked pretty good to poor girls. The two brothers would fare better, working together on ranches, sticking together without a sister to worry about.  The three of them did well with what they had in front of them.  Very, very  heroic in a very scary and dangerous situation for all three of them.  The only two heroes in this story are the nameless two we never meet, Ennis's brother and sister... a movie in itself.  I can't say enough for them.  They didn't abandon Ennis.  He was a strong strapping hulk by the time his brother got married... and working.  How long was his brother supposed to hold his hand?  He was just as old as his sister was when she was left with the 3 of them and $24.  And, he had no one to take care of but himself.  From his brother, he learned how to be a ranch hand.  He was not abandoned.  My sympathy remains with the girl, not with Ennis.  He was lucky.

This movie was full of losers from Ennis's parents, to Aguirre, to Jimbo, Newsome and Jack's father.  There were three shining stars... Ennis's brother and sister, and Jack's mother.

 

[tpe]

I still think the sister was a hero.  She took care of Ennis and stuck with and helped her brothers probably right up til losing the ranch.  She had no choice but to get married at that point.  She had to save herself.  She was down to no choices.  Why shouldn't Ennis's brother take over?  Why does it always have to end up on a woman's shoulders.  What was she supposed to do?  She was a child herself and desperate.  Boys could work on ranches.  A woman could be easily endangered and targeted.  The three of them knew that.  She did nothing wrong.  There was nothing more she could do for her brothers.  Moving into another man's home, we know nothing of her husband's temperament and ability to contribute to or support her brothers.  She was in a dangerous situation.  I've been there.  Alone and broke is not good for a young woman who hasn't got even a month's rent to her name.  It takes more than getting a job.  It's getting safe shelter that's problematic because it has to come first.  Impossible.  Marriage in those days looked pretty good to poor girls. The two brothers would fare better, working together on ranches, sticking together without a sister to worry about.  The three of them did well with what they had in front of them.  Very, very  heroic in a very scary and dangerous situation for all three of them.  The only two heroes in this story are the nameless two we never meet, Ennis's brother and sister... a movie in itself.  I can't say enough for them.  They didn't abandon Ennis.  He was a strong strapping hulk by the time his brother got married... and working.  How long was his brother supposed to hold his hand?  He was just as old as his sister was when she was left with the 3 of them and $24.  And, he had no one to take care of but himself.  From his brother, he learned how to be a ranch hand.  He was not abandoned.  My sympathy remains with the girl, not with Ennis.  He was lucky.

This movie was full of losers from Ennis's parents, to Aguirre, to Jimbo, Newsome and Jack's father.  There were three shining stars... Ennis's brother and sister, and Jack's mother.

You explain your point of view well, tam.  It is true that depending on how one views the situation, one can say that she did the best she could, and perhaps even more, even though she was at a certain disadvantage. 

Let me elaborate. 

The brothers could have thought that they were responsible for her, since they were the "men" in the family.  Likewise, she may have felt herself taking the role of "mother" to them both.  It is easy to imagine them trying to fill in for their dead parents -- roles that was probably too difficult to fill at their age and inexperience.  But the effort can be viewed as heroic nonetheless. 

Still, the impossibility of maintaining the way things were before the parents died must have convinced them at some point that they would be better of seeking their fortunes in separate ways.  It left each of them free to make their own choices, unburdened by the thought of making the wrong choices for their siblings.  And as I said previously, perhaps the sister didn't want to be a drag on the boys, since males were probably more mobile and had more options than young women in that kind of society.

To some, this may seem like a surrender to the harsh reality of the situation, and can therefore be viewed as a surender to pragmatism: something distinctly unheroic.

 

[manhattangirl]

Tamlynn makes a couple of good points about the times and the way it was for woman.   We tend to forget this.   Let's look at Lureen it was by virtue of her father she inherited the business.  Alma married Ennis, then Monroe, to maintain the status of wife.   What choices did Ennis sister have, no home, no parents, no money where would her life take her.  Every woman in this story was subjected to rule of men, and the kind of life that was given them.   

You have to understand at that time women options were limited,  still looked on as "daddy's little girl", or the "little woman".   And IMO there was a sense of heroism in every one of these woman.   The outcome of each of their lives were not of their choosing but dealt out to them by the men in their lives and where fate would lead each of them. 

[tamlynn]

Actually, Ennis's sister did her brothers a favor by getting married.  It would have been easier for them to manage and stay afloat without worrying about her, her safety and support.  They didn't suffer because she got married.  They benefitted. 

Isn't this interesting... a movie that forces us to look at how badly gays were treated in the 50's and 60's but lurking right beneath the surface and lost in the mix is how badly women were treated... not only by macho men but by the gay men too.  Many automatically assume the sister abandoned the boys.  She gets no slack.  The boys cheated on their wives, but it's ok because it was love.  Jack cruelly makes fun of Lureen and her beady eyes running the numbers.  But her life makes his life work.  For thanks, she gets cheated on ... and criticized behind her back.  Ennis was unforgivably rude to Cassie.

Monroe comes off looking like a prince.  He didn't have to accept Ennis at his table at Thanksgiving.  That took a big man.  He was humble.  He accepted everyone.  What a great man. 

Mrs. Twist and Mrs. Newsome were trapped and owned.  One rich, one poor... same plight.

Alma had pluck and courage to get a job and a divorce and a new husband. 
Lureen deserved better treatment.  She had pluck to run that multi million dollar business and stick with her husband who wouldn't even dance with her or say something nice about her behind her back toward the end.

Alma and Lureen were symbolic of what women were doing to be more proactive during the first wave of the
women's rights movement.

I did not realize how profound the statements were in this movie about the plight of women.

My passionate love for Jack and Ennis is slightly fading.  I see the honesty and purity of all the women and Monroe now.  But it all started with the courage of a nameless, faceless teenage girl, tried and accused of abandonment when she was the one abandoned with 2 little brothers and $24.  We can only imagine her nightmare.  Until now, for me, it was all Jack and Ennis.  I see so much more now.

The fact remains, this movie is a masterpiece.

It just keeps unfolding.

... for how long... as long as we can ride it?

There are no reins...

[BBBOY]

Interesting how things have progressed over the years. Alma possibly would no longer see herself as the helpless wife, but I think Laureen would still be what she was, money grubbing and oriented to self-promotion. She was actually a leader for her time. But in truth, the movie does not treat women well.

[tpe]

Actually, Ennis's sister did her brothers a favor by getting married.  It would have been easier for them to manage and stay afloat without worrying about her, her safety and support.  They didn't suffer because she got married.  They benefitted.  

Yes, she may very well have thought this way.  That was what I meant when I said that she didn't want to be a drag on them. But as I said, that could be viewed in 2 ways.  Some may think of this as heroic, whereas some would view this as pragmatism -- the very opposite of heroism. This is because the marriage was not made purely for the brothers' sake.   It could be viewed as a means of rationalizing a way out of impending difficulties.

Isn't this interesting... a movie that forces us to look at how badly gays were treated in the 50's and 60's but lurking right beneath the surface and lost in the mix is how badly women were treated... not only by macho men but by the gay men too.  Many automatically assume the sister abandoned the boys.  She gets no slack.  The boys cheated on their wives, but it's ok because it was love.  Jack cruelly makes fun of Lureen and her beady eyes running the numbers.  But her life makes his life work.  For thanks, she gets cheated on ... and criticized behind her back.  Ennis was unforgivably rude to Cassie.

Monroe comes off looking like a prince.  He didn't have to accept Ennis at his table at Thanksgiving.  That took a big man.  He was humble.  He accepted everyone.  What a great man. 

Mrs. Twist and Mrs. Newsome were trapped and owned.  One rich, one poor... same plight.

Alma had pluck and courage to get a job and a divorce and a new husband. 
Lureen deserved better treatment.  She had pluck to run that multi million dollar business and stick with her husband who wouldn't even dance with her or say something nice about her behind her back toward the end.

Alma and Lureen were symbolic of what women were doing to be more proactive during the first wave of the
women's rights movement.

I did not realize how profound the statements were in this movie about the plight of women.

My passionate love for Jack and Ennis is slightly fading.  I see the honesty and purity of all the women and Monroe now.  But it all started with the courage of a nameless, faceless teenage girl, tried and accused of abandonment when she was the one abandoned with 2 little brothers and $24.  We can only imagine her nightmare.  Until now, for me, it was all Jack and Ennis.  I see so much more now.

The fact remains, this movie is a masterpiece.

It just keeps unfolding.

... for how long... as long as we can ride it?

There are no reins...

Perhaps this should be a separate topic, but what I can say is that in this movie, the women were also victims to the mistakes played out by the men.  Alma may have come closest to heroism, but she ended up embittered -- destroyed by the relationship that she had wanted to save.  In fact, one of the great things about this movie is that there are no obvious heroes -- every character is flawed.  That is why it stikes a chord in our own shared humanity.

[tamlynn]

tpe, I don't think Alma was bitter.  She's the winner with the best husband in the movie.  She ended up pretty well off... and loved.  Try as I might I can't think of one flaw in Monroe.  What a great thing he did by taking on those girls.  He was a prince among cheaters, liars and brutes.

And, speaking of folks running kids off, it looks like Alma Jr still lived at home at 19.  The child support had ended for her... Monroe didn't  boot her out.  He could have.  He probably gave her a job at the store.  The day Alma married Monroe was a lucky day for all of them.