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Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines  (Read 405007 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #720 on: Dec 20, 2009, 02:51 PM »
Quote from: brokebacksoul on Dec 18, 2009, 01:21 AM
:( .. oh yes...

....but no, tpe :), it was not your comment that raised that uncomfortable possibility in my mind (Or did I get you wrong here - in that case I apologize;-) -  It was one of my first thoughts after watching the film and I said in in one of my first posts here in the forum.... I was just reminded of this sad point. And I add: If we consider the possibility of Jacks love that ended we would indeed have a double meaning - Jacks physical  death and the "death" of his love for Ennis ... -- but %(, I/we don't want to follow up this thought any further, don't we ;) :_(               ????

Certainly, there is more than one way to die!  And death goes beyond the physical. 
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #721 on: Feb 12, 2010, 12:40 PM »
Many times we have talked about the meaning of colors in BBM; concretely,about how Ennis colors are similar to Earth ones and Jack's similar to air's.As a reflect of their way of being,contrasted but complementary,as ying and yang.Well then,an Spanish Brokie has said that in the last confrontation scene,Jack's shirt is also blue,but in a rather darker shade; as symbolising that his playful,funny and full of life way of being had been vanishing and only remained the bitterness in him.What's your opinion about this?.
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Ferdinand

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #722 on: Feb 14, 2010, 06:21 PM »
Quote from: myprivatejack on Feb 12, 2010, 12:40 PM
Many times we have talked about the meaning of colors in BBM; concretely,about how Ennis colors are similar to Earth ones and Jack's similar to air's.As a reflect of their way of being,contrasted but complementary,as ying and yang.Well then,an Spanish Brokie has said that in the last confrontation scene,Jack's shirt is also blue,but in a rather darker shade; as symbolising that his playful,funny and full of life way of being had been vanishing and only remained the bitterness in him.What's your opinion about this?.

I haven`t noticed a darker color of blue shirts. Color of clothes Ennis and Jack really showing their character.Ennis is a quiet, shy and realistic, Jack's emotional, restless and playful spirit ... The opposition is led to their relationship. Ennis with his white hat and beige clothes, and Jack with black hat and clothes of blue and green color (which looks beautiful  <^() clearly show their character  and attitude to what they are and what they feel. Although I do not believe that the darker color of the clothes Jack shows his emotions, I think this is just the camera ... I will watch this scene again ... "s;"
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #723 on: Feb 15, 2010, 06:54 PM »
For me, the colors evoke the contrasts between night and day, and between earth and sky.  Also, it shows Ennis grounded in the earth, while Jack's dreams are the stuff of air.  For Jack, especially, the colors conjure the night -- the realm of dreams.

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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #724 on: Apr 14, 2010, 11:56 AM »
Another point I'm almost sure has been treated here is the symbolism of the open window in Ennis trailer at the movie's last moments.I know somebody has said that it probably mean Ennis opening to the world outside,one of the things he could swear to Jack's memory in these infamous and enigmatic words.Others believe all the contrary precisely;that he was going to live inside his little world,with his memories and nothing or almost nothing more while the real life is outside his trailer.But,have you realised that the landscape we can see through that window is completely different from Brokeback or the other mountains they went fishing?Does this mean a change in Ennis behaviour and consequent way of living his life?.What's your opinion?.
As regards to this point,my Brokie coworker says that it's an open window to hope,because it's the only object that remains before us once Ennis has disappeared of the screen,as if someone wants us to put our attention in it.A hope and an attention that for him could mean that Jack could appear in this path that leads to Ennis trailer,leaving the end open to the viewer's point of view-as so many things in the movie-.I think it's to have too much imagination  %&) ,but it's true that some of the great points of the movie remain open to our perception,so why not this one too?.Anything to say about that?.Thanks.
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #725 on: Nov 21, 2010, 03:30 PM »
I think nobody has said anything about this,or maybe is anything I have imagined?...When our boys are coming down from the mountain,we see them very silent over their horses;Ennis is wearing a new shirt that we haven't seen before and we won't see anymore after that and,according to what I can remember,so is Jack.Can this suggest that they are going to live a new life far from BBM,reflected in some new clothes they didn't wear in the mountain?.I don't know if this makes sense...
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline rdx

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #726 on: Nov 21, 2010, 04:24 PM »
I think your metaphor makes sense: there was no turning back to the paradise of the mountains. "As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall " says the SS and the screenplay adds "..more emotion stirring in him than he can handle".

Though Jack did wear that shirt, at least once, before while Aguirre was visiting the mountains about Jack's uncle.




Or am I 'colourblind' here?  :*(
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vedrana

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #727 on: Nov 21, 2010, 04:57 PM »
I'm with rdx here. It was a "new" shirt on Ennis and definitely can point out the new life he was about to enter.(That's a great parallel, MPJ!!!)  But Jack had the same shirt as before. He obviously wants to continue with the same life style...  ::)

This scene is so sad... so very sad. When the most beautiful time in someone's life is over!!!  :_( :_( :_(

 :m}
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Offline ethan

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #728 on: Nov 21, 2010, 06:38 PM »
Quote from: myprivatejack on Nov 21, 2010, 03:30 PM
I think nobody has said anything about this,or maybe is anything I have imagined?...When our boys are coming down from the mountain,we see them very silent over their horses;Ennis is wearing a new shirt that we haven't seen before and we won't see anymore after that and,according to what I can remember,so is Jack.Can this suggest that they are going to live a new life far from BBM,reflected in some new clothes they didn't wear in the mountain?.I don't know if this makes sense...

Wow..never thought that before and I certainly agree with your metaphor.

Quote from: loreen on Nov 21, 2010, 04:57 PM
I'm with rdx here. It was a "new" shirt on Ennis and definitely can point out the new life he was about to enter.(That's a great parallel, MPJ!!!)  But Jack had the same shirt as before. He obviously wants to continue with the same life style...  ::)

This scene is so sad... so very sad. When the most beautiful time in someone's life is over!!!  :_( :_( :_(

 :m}

Jack had the same shirt and Ennis's old shirt as your take on continuing the same style. Sad indeed.
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vedrana

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #729 on: Nov 22, 2010, 03:18 AM »
Quote from: ethan on Nov 21, 2010, 06:38 PM
Wow..never thought that before and I certainly agree with your metaphor.

Jack had the same shirt and Ennis's old shirt as your take on continuing the same style. Sad indeed.


 O0 Excellent observation! Maybe the most powerful.

Hmm... in BBM there are so many many little things like this one, a metaphors, a parallels, double meanings... and I wonder if these are done deliberately by it's author(s), or it is just a feature of a master-piece- When so many tiny pieces fall just into the right places and everything matches perfectly without author's deliberate intervention? My guess is that no author can think of all these, but they create things so ingeniously, that finally we have a master piece that we can talk about for years and never got tired. There's always something new and amazing in it.  :)
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #730 on: Nov 22, 2010, 12:15 PM »
Quote from: rdx on Nov 21, 2010, 04:24 PM
I think your metaphor makes sense: there was no turning back to the paradise of the mountains. "As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall " says the SS and the screenplay adds "..more emotion stirring in him than he can handle".

Though Jack did wear that shirt, at least once, before while Aguirre was visiting the mountains about Jack's uncle.




Or am I 'colourblind' here?  :*(
%( No,rdx,you're not "colourblind" here and me neither.I only said that according to what I remembered,Jack was wearing a new shirt,but it's clear enough that I remembered bad.So,it's a matter of bad memory,not of bad view  ¡. ;D

Quote from: loreen on Nov 21, 2010, 04:57 PM
I'm with rdx here. It was a "new" shirt on Ennis and definitely can point out the new life he was about to enter.(That's a great parallel, MPJ!!!)  But Jack had the same shirt as before. He obviously wants to continue with the same life style...  ::)

This scene is so sad... so very sad. When the most beautiful time in someone's life is over!!!  :_( :_( :_(

 :m}

I agree completely with the shade you add to the subject here,Loreen  ¡.And  :t) for your words too  ¡.Yes,Ennis wears a new shirt but not Jack...It can be the translation into clothings and images of what we see in the lasso's scene,when Jack is happier than Ennis because he believes they are going to see each other down the mountain,while the second one knows for sure this isn't going to happen...Jack wants to continue with the same life style,so the same shirt.Ennis won't continue it,so he changes his clothings,that,moreover,has a darker brown than his shirt up to that moment...Maybe this means that he comes back to be with his feet on the ground?Since brown colours mean Earth and the attachment to this Ennis has,while Jack has blue,that means the air... :s)
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #731 on: Nov 22, 2010, 12:17 PM »
Quote from: loreen on Nov 22, 2010, 03:18 AM
O0 Excellent observation! Maybe the most powerful.

Hmm... in BBM there are so many many little things like this one, a metaphors, a parallels, double meanings... and I wonder if these are done deliberately by it's author(s), or it is just a feature of a master-piece- When so many tiny pieces fall just into the right places and everything matches perfectly without author's deliberate intervention? My guess is that no author can think of all these, but they create things so ingeniously, that finally we have a master piece that we can talk about for years and never got tired. There's always something new and amazing in it.  :)
:clap: :clap: :clap: I agree totally and deeply  ¡.As any masterpiece,there're as many interpretations and shades as viewers.
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline chowhound

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #732 on: Nov 22, 2010, 03:10 PM »
I hate to be the down-to-earth and practical one in this discussion, but if it is a "new" shirt that Ennis is wearing, how did he get hold of it?
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Offline brokebacksoul

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #733 on: Nov 22, 2010, 03:16 PM »
Yes, it's a wonderful metaphor MPJ pointed out here and I can very well understand  ... If it were up to me I would also like to see Jacks old shirt/Ennis new one in exactly this meaning !!!  BUT nevertheless this discussion confuses me a bit  :s)  
Tell me if I'm wrong but - IMO Ennis COULD ONLY wear another/new shirt when they were leaving the mountain!! His shirt, bloody from the fight, was taken and hidden by Jack. The central theme that runs through the story ....! We as the viewers can't know this in that moment but we get to know it when Ennis says he is missing his shirt in the farewell scene  :_(  
I don't think that two guys would drag  a lot of clothes for changing up on a mountain  ;D    so Ennis would probably also wear his used shirt even for the last day but now he HAD to take a new one out of his baggage ... right now I don't know whether or how often Ennis changed shirts before that scene ... but for me his wearing of a new shirt here should only give an OBVIOUS hint for the fact that Jack had taken his shirt ...
Or am I barking up the wrong tree??  :s)
« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2010, 03:57 PM by brokebacksoul »
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vedrana

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #734 on: Nov 22, 2010, 04:45 PM »
Quote from: brokebacksoul on Nov 22, 2010, 03:16 PM
Yes, it's a wonderful metaphor MPJ pointed out here and I can very well understand  ... If it were up to me I would also like to see Jacks old shirt/Ennis new one in exactly this meaning !!!  BUT nevertheless this discussion confuses me a bit  :s)  
Tell me if I'm wrong but - IMO Ennis COULD ONLY wear another/new shirt when they were leaving the mountain!! His shirt, bloody from the fight, was taken and hidden by Jack. The central theme that runs through the story ....! We as the viewers can't know this in that moment but we get to know it when Ennis says he is missing his shirt in the farewell scene  :_(  
I don't think that two guys would drag  a lot of clothes for changing up on a mountain  ;D    so Ennis would probably also wear his used shirt even for the last day but now he HAD to take a new one out of his baggage ... right now I don't know whether or how often Ennis changed shirts before that scene ... but for me his wearing of a new shirt here should only give an OBVIOUS hint for the fact that Jack had taken his shirt ...
Or am I barking up the wrong tree??  :s)

At one scene we saw Jack washing shirt, but as I remember it was Ennis's... so they were definitely changing shirts before too. It is impossible to have only one shirt while working on the mountain. So surely they changed shirts before, and surely it was Jack who caused Ennis to wear another one while going down, but this time it all had a different meaning.

The fight on the mountain was a clear sign that Ennis is not for continuance of their "thing". If not for the fight, both of them would've wore the same shirts as before. But they didn't. Ennis's rage and "message" he gave to Jack showed on them - Ennis was wearing the darker shirt (which is again so brilliant idea of MPJ), a new one for the new life he decided to chose. Jack was wearing his own, which indicated that he felt comfortable in his skin (I guess). But ( as Ethan also brilliantly noticed) Jack also took Ennis's, he took Ennis the way he was on the mountain, and he wanted that same Ennis, he wanted to hug him forever. And he did!  :_( :_( :_(

Huh... yeah... I guess that it was a wrong tree!  ;D At least IMHO.  ;)
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vedrana

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #735 on: Nov 22, 2010, 04:46 PM »
Quote from: chowhound on Nov 22, 2010, 03:10 PM
I hate to be the down-to-earth and practical one in this discussion, but if it is a "new" shirt that Ennis is wearing, how did he get hold of it?

Well, the quotes mean that it wasn't really new, but not seen before. Maybe he wore it, but we didn't see it, so for us is new, but in fact it was "new".  ;D

 :i
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vedrana

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #736 on: Nov 22, 2010, 04:47 PM »
Quote from: myprivatejack on Nov 22, 2010, 12:15 PM

I agree completely with the shade you add to the subject here,Loreen  ¡.And  :t) for your words too  ¡.Yes,Ennis wears a new shirt but not Jack...It can be the translation into clothings and images of what we see in the lasso's scene,when Jack is happier than Ennis because he believes they are going to see each other down the mountain,while the second one knows for sure this isn't going to happen...Jack wants to continue with the same life style,so the same shirt.Ennis won't continue it,so he changes his clothings,that,moreover,has a darker brown than his shirt up to that moment...Maybe this means that he comes back to be with his feet on the ground?Since brown colours mean Earth and the attachment to this Ennis has,while Jack has blue,that means the air... :s)


 O0 O0 O0
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Offline WildCatIsle

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #737 on: Nov 22, 2010, 05:17 PM »


I'm sorry, but Ennis's "new" shirt is not such, we can see it before and after FNIT, Ennis wearing it: white with squares brown / reds. We they remember Jack was washing the Ennis' shirt white with blue squares.
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #738 on: Nov 23, 2010, 05:32 AM »
Quote from: WildcatIsle on Nov 22, 2010, 05:17 PM


I'm sorry, but Ennis's "new" shirt is not such, we can see it before and after FNIT, Ennis wearing it: white with squares brown / reds. We they remember Jack was washing the Ennis' shirt white with blue squares.


Gosh,my nice teory on the ground ¡ %&)  (t) I haven't seen it after so much time and so many views of the movie ¡...  :i  But I keep on having it because if someone as myop as me hasn't seen that shirt before is because Ennis is wearing his jacket over it.But when they coming down from the mountain(it's to say,when they will need to make face to reality...) is the first and only time we see Ennis wearing it without anything else over (maybe is the time when he will have to show himself the way he must be,according to his way of thinking, before society in a whole,not before another boy in the mountain's loneliness?).As a matter of fact,this shirt is rather darker than the former one,more "earthly" that is the way Ennis is feeling now;during their time on BBM,he had that shirt hidden because he was giving a more meaningful place to the atraction he felt more and more towards Jack.Maybe it's a coincidence,but it's fairly nice,isn't it?...
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline brokebacksoul

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #739 on: Nov 23, 2010, 10:20 AM »
Quote from: loreen on Nov 22, 2010, 04:45 PM
Huh... yeah... I guess that it was a wrong tree!  ;D At least IMHO.  ;)

 ;D

You are right, and .... I noticed that wrong tree  ;) shortly after I posted. Generally speaking, it was too stupid
to hint Brokies on the background of the shirt scene  %&)  %&) !!!!
Sorry that I've talked nonsense ...maybe I should only post when I'm rested  {b}

And I feel sorry for MPJ's theory thrown overboard, at least in parts  ;)  It's a nice idea, though !!!

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Offline WildCatIsle

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #740 on: Nov 23, 2010, 03:08 PM »
Quote from: myprivatejack on Nov 23, 2010, 05:32 AM
Gosh,my nice teory on the ground ¡ %&)  (t) I haven't seen it after so much time and so many views of the movie ¡...  

I'm so sorry, MPJ, I don't want to be a nuisance.   :-\\  Ennis even wears this shirt at the scene with the basque, the bear and when he returns with Jack waiting without knowing what has happened  
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2010, 04:48 PM by WildcatIsle »
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #741 on: Nov 24, 2010, 10:25 AM »
Quote from: brokebacksoul on Nov 23, 2010, 10:20 AM
;D

You are right, and .... I noticed that wrong tree  ;) shortly after I posted. Generally speaking, it was too stupid
to hint Brokies on the background of the shirt scene  %&)  %&) !!!!
Sorry that I've talked nonsense ...maybe I should only post when I'm rested  {b}

And I feel sorry for MPJ's theory thrown overboard, at least in parts  ;)  It's a nice idea, though !!!

You're not talking nonsenses; everybody is giving his or her opinion here or,at least,they see or wanted to see how things happen between our boys. :) On the other hand,if you have barked up the wrong tree,I have barked up all a jungle ¡  ;D
Quote from: WildcatIsle on Nov 23, 2010, 03:08 PM
I'm so sorry, MPJ, I don't want to be a nuisance.   :-\\  Ennis even wears this shirt at the scene with the basque, the bear and when he returns with Jack waiting without knowing what has happened 
Oh,please,don't worry about this ¡ It's me who should have seen better how Ennis was wearing in these scenes...but between you and me,I will be able to survive ¡  ;)
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.
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