Author Topic: Until the shirts / the shirts in the closet (Read 97100 times)

keren_b · « **Reply #180 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 04:32 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Feb 22, 2008, 02:46 PM

hi the title practically sums up what im asking. to me when ennis finds his blood stained shirt in jacks closet inside one of jacks jackets its not just symbolical because it shows jack craved ennis so much he needed to keep something with him at all times the main thing the shirts symbolise to me is in the final scene with ennis saying jack i swear i noticed that he had switched the to be over the jacket to me the shirt and jacket were a metaphor in jacks room when the jacket was over the shirt it was in away embrasing the shirt a metaphor for jack embrassing his love for ennis and the fact that ennis put the jacket over the shirt for me was a metaphor that ennis had finally embrasses his love for jack. if i didnt make sence there please ask me to elaborate i feel strongly about this and would hate for people to not understand what im saying

Thank you zankou1991 for this post, and I think I understand what you're saying and it's beautiful. I've never thought about it quite this way.

When Annie proulx wrote about Ennis finding the shirts in her short story she described them "like two skins, one inside the other, two in one". The shirts symbolised what the boys were to each other. Jack had tucked Ennis' shirt inside his, and I have always seen it as Jack embracing Ennis, holding him inside of him. And then when Ennis switched the shirts I've always seen it as Ennis embracing Jack, keeping his memory inside him (because now Jack's memory is all he's got left), keeping him safe. Like it was his way to say that he will always carry Jack inside of him, in his heart. But what you said makes sense and I think it's a beautiful way to see it, Ennis embracing his love for Jack, maybe finally accepting it.

And btw, switching the shirts like that wasn't in the story nor in the screenplay, it was Heath's idea to do that.

Tony · « **Reply #181 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 09:26 AM »

It was Heath's idea to do that? Switch the shirts? Damn, Keren, just take out a gun and shoot me. Get it over with. That little piece of
information is absolute proof Heath understood the love, became a part of it, and developed it with extreme respect. There goes any theory
he was just a brilliant actor exploring a difficult role. He was a lover. He knew what a deep love could provoke. I wonder how much more of
the final vision of enduring love--was Heath's?

keren_b · « **Reply #182 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 09:40 AM »

Yes, I think it was Diana Ossana who said in an interview that it was Heath's idea to switch the shirts. And I agree with you Tony, he understood the deep love in the story and became a part of it, completely. Who else would've thought of something like that? Such sensitivity, such insight, such depth.

Emzan · « **Reply #183 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 11:28 AM »

all the posts make me cry :\'(

Quote from: keren_b on Feb 23, 2008, 09:40 AM

Yes, I think it was Diana Ossana who said in an interview that it was Heath's idea to switch the shirts. And I agree with you Tony, he understood the deep love in the story and became a part of it, completely. Who else would've thought of something like that? Such sensitivity, such insight, such depth.

nobody would have thought of that If Heath hadn't done it. Just the thought of It makes me love him more but It hurts to love him, because his gone :\'(

lamusica · « **Reply #184 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 12:45 PM »

Quote from: Tony on Feb 23, 2008, 09:26 AM

It was Heath's idea to do that? Switch the shirts? Damn, Keren, just take out a gun and shoot me. Get it over with. That little piece of
information is absolute proof Heath understood the love, became a part of it, and developed it with extreme respect. There goes any theory
he was just a brilliant actor exploring a difficult role. He was a lover. He knew what a deep love could provoke. I wonder how much more of
the final vision of enduring love--was Heath's?

I wonder, too, Tony. I always wondered who set up the scene in the motel where Ennis is leaning back on Jack's chest with Jack's arm around him so Ennis could continually stroke Jack's arm. To me, that is one of the most erotic actions in the film. I don't know if it was Heath's idea, or Ang's, or who, but it sure got to me. It's another instance of that little something extra that raises that scene to unscalable heights. If we ever doubted their love for one another, that position and little action proved it.

jackster · « **Reply #185 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:08 PM »

Quote from: keren_b on Feb 23, 2008, 09:40 AM

Yes, I think it was Diana Ossana who said in an interview that it was Heath's idea to switch the shirts. . . .

Yes, Diana was quoted (again) in the recent Heath Ledger tribute issue of the Advocate:

"One of my most endearing memories of working with Heath on the set was the day we filmed the final scene in Brokeback. Before the first take, Heath walked over to me, a big smile on his face, and said, "I think you're going to like what I've done with this scene" . . . I watched the monitors roll . . . and realized that Heath had chosen to reverse the order of those shirts . . . Such was Heath's commitment to the truth of our story and to the rawness and depth of his portrayal."

It will never get any better than this, this dedication and understanding to ones craft. How fortunate we are to have seen (and felt) this level of commitment. I think we can all see Heath walking over to Diana with that big smile, his energy radiating from that small trailer onto screens around the world.

Emzan · « **Reply #186 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:12 PM »

Quote from: jackster on Feb 23, 2008, 01:08 PM

Yes, Diana was quoted in the recent Heath Ledger tribute issue of the Advocate:

"One of my most endearing memories of working with Heath on the set was the day we filmed the final scene in Brokeback. Before the first take, Heath walked over to me, a big smile on his face, and said, "I think you're going to like what I've done with this scene" . . . I watched the monitors roll . . . and realized that Heath had chosen to reverse the order of those shirts . . . Such was Heath's commitment to the truth of our story and to the rawness and depth of his portrayal."

It will never get any better than this, this dedication and understanding to ones craft. How fortunate we are to have seen (and felt) this level of commitment. I think we can all see Heath walking over to Diana with that big smile, his energy radiating from that small trailer onto screens around the world.

I love reading things like this. Yes I can see his big beautiful smile and now I think I'm gonna cry

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #187 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:19 PM »

Quote from: Emzan on Feb 23, 2008, 01:12 PM

I love reading things like this. Yes I can see his big beautiful smile and now I think I'm gonna cry

yer hearing all the wonderful things about heath is nice because he was such a great guy and its a great way to remember him but at the same time its sad because it reminds you of the loss. :\'(

Emzan · « **Reply #188 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:24 PM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Feb 23, 2008, 01:19 PM

yer hearing all the wonderful things about heath is nice because he was such a great guy and its a great way to remember him but at the same time its sad because it reminds you of the loss. :\'(

I'm happy for a wile but then I remeber that he's no longer with us and that just feels wrong. It wasn't his time, just like It wasn't Jack's time in the movie, he should have lived a happy life with Ennis. and Heath should have lived a happy life with Matilda :\'(

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #189 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:30 PM »

Quote from: Emzan on Feb 23, 2008, 01:24 PM

I'm happy for a wile but then I remeber that he's no longer with us and that just feels wrong. It wasn't his time, just like It wasn't Jack's time in the movie, he should have lived a happy life with Ennis. and Heath should have lived a happy life with Matilda :\'(

too true enzam i'd like to say to you what ellen said to jake. "your so thoughtful, your cute and thooughtful to, you could just be cute but thoughtful" this is what i say to you, lol

Emzan · « **Reply #190 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:37 PM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Feb 23, 2008, 01:30 PM

too true enzam i'd like to say to you what ellen said to jake. "your so thoughtful, your cute and thooughtful to, you could just be cute but thoughtful" this is what i say to you, lol

I say the same thing about you

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #191 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:39 PM »

Quote from: Emzan on Feb 23, 2008, 01:37 PM

I say the same thing about you

lol cheers.

i might post a pic of myself on hear im just worried i scare people lol

Emzan · « **Reply #192 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:45 PM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Feb 23, 2008, 01:39 PM

lol cheers.

i might post a pic of myself on hear im just worried i scare people lol

I would love to see what you look like, I don't think you will scare anyone

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #193 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:50 PM »

Quote from: Emzan on Feb 23, 2008, 01:45 PM

I would love to see what you look like, I don't think you will scare anyone

i wouldnt be so sure i will get a photo put up later and you'll see what i mean lol i have a webcam but i always look like a dofus on the photos it takes lol

Emzan · « **Reply #194 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:52 PM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Feb 23, 2008, 01:50 PM

i wouldnt be so sure i will get a photo put up later and you'll see what i mean lol i have a webcam but i always look like a dofus on the photos it takes lol

this is

but I don't think you do

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #195 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 01:57 PM »

Quote from: Emzan on Feb 23, 2008, 01:52 PM

this is but I don't think you do

sorry ive flicking back and forth in between the photo one and this one got conused lol

chameau · « **Reply #196 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 08:51 PM »

Brokies the last posts here are really off topic. There are plenty of places to chat on this forum but please not here. Thanks!

aintfoolin · « **Reply #197 on:** Feb 24, 2008, 03:55 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Feb 04, 2006, 05:48 PM

Until Ennis saw the two shirts in Jacks room do you think he really knew how much Jack loved him and that it was more than a deep sexual friendship?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I really feel that Ennis knew Jack loved him before the shirts. 20 years is a long time not to know this or at least have a strong suspicion. I think for Ennis it was more of the discovery of the depth of the love, but just as impotantly Ennis finally making the silent confession to himself that he loved Jack just as much.

Emzan · « **Reply #198 on:** Feb 24, 2008, 04:01 AM »

Quote from: chameau on Feb 23, 2008, 08:51 PM

Brokies the last posts here are really off topic. There are plenty of places to chat on this forum but please not here. Thanks!

we know,

for that

keren_b · « **Reply #199 on:** Feb 24, 2008, 10:34 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Feb 24, 2008, 03:55 AM

I really feel that Ennis knew Jack loved him before the shirts. 20 years is a long time not to know this or at least have a strong suspicion. I think for Ennis it was more of the discovery of the depth of the love, but just as impotantly Ennis finally making the silent confession to himself that he loved Jack just as much.

beautifuly said.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #200 on:** Feb 24, 2008, 10:37 AM »

ennis deffinately knew jack loved him and i think jack new ennis loved him its just ennis was less showing of the fact

Emzan · « **Reply #201 on:** Feb 25, 2008, 06:50 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Feb 24, 2008, 10:37 AM

ennis deffinately knew jack loved him and i think jack new ennis loved him its just ennis was less showing of the fact

I agree with you

tpe · « **Reply #202 on:** Feb 25, 2008, 09:04 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Feb 24, 2008, 10:37 AM

ennis deffinately knew jack loved him and i think jack new ennis loved him its just ennis was less showing of the fact

I think Jack only became truly aware of this in the last confrontation.

I think Ennis only became truly aware of this when he found the shirts inside the closet.

Emzan · « **Reply #203 on:** Feb 25, 2008, 09:52 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 25, 2008, 09:04 AM

I think Jack only became truly aware of this in the last confrontation.

I think Ennis only became truly aware of this when he found the shirts inside the closet.

I think so too. Ennis never showed any feelings like that before and in a way I think that it ment something for Jack.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #204 on:** Feb 25, 2008, 10:51 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Feb 23, 2008, 12:45 PM

I wonder, too, Tony. I always wondered who set up the scene in the motel where Ennis is leaning back on Jack's chest with Jack's arm around him so Ennis could continually stroke Jack's arm. To me, that is one of the most erotic actions in the film. I don't know if it was Heath's idea, or Ang's, or who, but it sure got to me. It's another instance of that little something extra that raises that scene to unscalable heights. If we ever doubted their love for one another, that position and little action proved it.

Yes,I've always wanted to know in what measure actors contribute with their own ideas in these little actions and signals that initially aren't in the book and,perhaps,in the script either.I've already know that that one was Heath's idea and I find it superb,because for me it's a kind of showing his love for Jack,even if he's not already by his side.But also a kind of giving him the protection in death than he wasn't able to give him in live.For me it's as if he swear he's going to protect his love's memory for the Eternity,I don't know if this makes sense...
By the way,and speaking about love,I don't find the little strokes on Jack's arm in the motel scene particularilly erotic;when Jack asked Ennis "What about you?"-during those four years of separation-,this doesn't find an answer,as always,but it seems as if his eyes get full with tears and the ONLY he can do is stroke his lover's arm.For me it's a love's proof without words,and Jack also find it so,because he realises by saying "Old Brokeback got us good...".JMO.

tpe · « **Reply #205 on:** Feb 26, 2008, 09:03 AM »

Quote from: Emzan on Feb 25, 2008, 09:52 AM

I think so too. Ennis never showed any feelings like that before and in a way I think that it ment something for Jack.

It was a part of Ennis's stoicism not to show his emotions, no? He thought it was a way to show strength, when in fact it showed a fundamental weakness...

Emzan · « **Reply #206 on:** Feb 26, 2008, 09:07 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 26, 2008, 09:03 AM

It was a part of Ennis's stoicism not to show his emotions, no? He thought it was a way to show strength, when in fact it showed a fundamental weakness...

you're right

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #207 on:** Feb 26, 2008, 02:27 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 26, 2008, 09:03 AM

It was a part of Ennis's stoicism not to show his emotions, no? He thought it was a way to show strength, when in fact it showed a fundamental weakness...

ermm i dont know what stoicism is lol is it like a facade? i understand what you are saying though and i totally agree. i cant beleive english is my first language and im having trouble understanding a word

tpe · « **Reply #208 on:** Feb 27, 2008, 07:54 AM »

Stoicism is showing and indifference to either pleasure or pain -- i.e., taking life as it comes. Ennis tries to show this many times, but we do know that it is all a facade, by the way he breaks down in the alley, or the way he breaks down in the final confrontation.

Relating to the scene in the closet with the shirts, we see the true Ennis, engulfed in a quiet sea of sadness. That's what he truly was inside, and not the stoic he wanted people to see.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #209 on:** Feb 27, 2008, 10:54 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 27, 2008, 07:54 AM

Stoicism is showing and indifference to either pleasure or pain -- i.e., taking life as it comes. Ennis tries to show this many times, but we do know that it is all a facade, by the way he breaks down in the alley, or the way he breaks down in the final confrontation.

Relating to the scene in the closet with the shirts, we see the true Ennis, engulfed in a quiet sea of sadness. That's what he truly was inside, and not the stoic he wanted people to see.

oh right thanks for clearing that up lol. yer i agree with what your saying then