Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?

[tpe]

Perhaps.  The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult.  No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.

There are silences that kill, silences that rebuff, silences that need to be respected as legitimate "not now" messages, and other silences that mean "what are you waiting for, a matin' call ?"

( ) Men ! So complicated !

Yes, silences are more complicated than loquaciousness.  Silences are more difficult to read.  But silences cannot lie.

[stephan]

Yes, silences are more complicated than loquaciousness.  Silences are more difficult to read.  But silences cannot lie.

As in Ennis's silent entry into the tent, second night. Jack sensed he still had a guiding role to play, if only to get things going in the right direction....

[tpe]

Yes, silences are more complicated than loquaciousness.  Silences are more difficult to read.  But silences cannot lie.

As in Ennis's silent entry into the tent, second night. Jack sensed he still had a guiding role to play, if only to get things going in the right direction....

Couild we interpret this as Ennis making the move?   I am sure Jack was in an agony of anticipation.

[johnboy]

For me the most clear signal to Jack was Ennis "you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity"

I just so stunned by all the little snippets that have been brought out by you guys, I shall have to sit down and watch it again, I have only watched it end to end twice,

[stephan]

Hello johnboy 

I saw BBM 7 times in theatres and am also amazed at all the things I've learned about the film on this forum. Unfortunately I don't get my dvd for another 2.5 weeks. But when I do....

[tpe]

For me the most clear signal to Jack was Ennis "you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity"

I just so stunned by all the little snippets that have been brought out by you guys, I shall have to sit down and watch it again, I have only watched it end to end twice,

Do watch it again johnboy, and see if you notice other felicities that we may have missed.

[johnboy]

tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night , and watch the sun go down over the sea.

here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg

yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,

[tpe]

tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night , and watch the sun go down over the sea.

here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg

yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,

OOT: that sunset is gorgeous.  Thank you. 

[christie wood]

tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night , and watch the sun go down over the sea.

here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg

yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,

That picture is beautiful john boy, where is it taken?

[CrimsonSky]

We have been discussing how Jack knew how and when to make a move on Ennis.  A question that pops up is: would it have been inconceivable for Ennis to have made the first move?  Is this too far-fetched?  Perhpas Ennis was simply pre-empted...

   

That's a very interesting question,tpe
Having given it all of 5 minutes thought, I don't think it's "inconcievable" at all, I just think it's unlikely he would've had to make the move cause Jack would have always acted first. Jack had less obstacles to overcome in his mind, he recognised his feelings for Ennis, he had experience of sex with men, and he didn't have the image of Earl dead in the ditch in his head So by the time Ennis had worked out that he wanted to make a move on Jack, the move would have long since made by Jack.
Having said that, if for some reason,they had continued to get closer, without Jack making a move, and Ennis becoming more and more attracted to him, I think it might have boiled over into Ennis making a move. Ennis keeps things bottled up inside,until the pressure becomes too much and when it all comes flooding out, he reacts in an extreme way (the reunion kiss, the fight at the fireworks display, etc), so I can imagine his pent-up lust for Jack suddenly taking him over, maybe Jack burning the dinner or something and Ennis getting mad at him, then suddenly kissing him and pushing him to the ground...

[welshwitch]

Maybe, but I think the Ennis type tends to deal with guilt and uncertainty by leaving it all up to the other person - if someone else makes the move, they respond, if not, they do nothing. Ennis didn't see himslef as queer; a man who isn't queer doesn't make a move on another man. Even after the FNIT he doesn't face the fact that if not queer, he's not entirely straight either.

On the other hand, the ide of his getting mad at Jack and the whole thing turning into physical violence then into sex is a possible - that wrestling aequence after NIT has an element of that about it, and maybe the last fight before they leave Brokeback.

[johnboy]

tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night , and watch the sun go down over the sea.

here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg

yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,

That picture is beautiful john boy, where is it taken?

Its taken from the decking, missed the sunset proper,  it was beautifull and  I live in Newquay Cornwall

[Glynn]

For me the most clear signal to Jack was Ennis "you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity"

can someone please tell me how the above statement would give the go ahead...the clue....I can understand if Ennis was not a sinner that he had lived a restricted upbrining in many ways...but "sin" is not just related to being "gay"...

so in your views was that statement a come on or something else...

thanks


glynn xx

[NoReins]

Glynn - I don't think it's so much what Ennis says as how he says it and his expression when he does. He's looking straight at Jack and there's something in his eyes - some kind of twinkle - that suggests he's thinking about sinning and not once he comes down off the mountain but right there, with Jack.

[Glynn]

oh right so in a way that was ennis I suppose flirting...lol...

did Jack note that then...I will have to watch dvd again...

glynn xx

[aimi15]

oh right so in a way that was ennis I suppose flirting...lol...

did Jack note that then...I will have to watch dvd again...

glynn xx

Yes you will lol - many many many times. What a hardship 

[shieldmaid]

That's a very interesting question,tpe
Having given it all of 5 minutes thought, I don't think it's "inconcievable" at all, I just think it's unlikely he would've had to make the move cause Jack would have always acted first. Jack had less obstacles to overcome in his mind, he recognised his feelings for Ennis, he had experience of sex with men, and he didn't have the image of Earl dead in the ditch in his head So by the time Ennis had worked out that he wanted to make a move on Jack, the move would have long since made by Jack.
Having said that, if for some reason,they had continued to get closer, without Jack making a move, and Ennis becoming more and more attracted to him, I think it might have boiled over into Ennis making a move. Ennis keeps things bottled up inside,until the pressure becomes too much and when it all comes flooding out, he reacts in an extreme way (the reunion kiss, the fight at the fireworks display, etc), so I can imagine his pent-up lust for Jack suddenly taking him over, maybe Jack burning the dinner or something and Ennis getting mad at him, then suddenly kissing him and pushing him to the ground...

I'm really intrigued by these ideas, CrimsonSky.  I always found it a little puzzling that they include the shot of Ennis at the fireworks as the last scene in the trailer, but your comment here makes sense.  Apart from the beautiful cinematography of the scene, it also shows Ennis acting out his frustration in an explosive and very characteristic way.  Jack approaches Ennis with passion and tenderness; Ennis might have approached him the first time with violence (?).  But I'm so glad SNIT turned out the way it did: Ennis enters the tent, and they both sink into a private, sacred world.

[stephan]

(...)
On the other hand, the ide of his getting mad at Jack and the whole thing turning into physical violence then into sex is a possible - that wrestling aequence after NIT has an element of that about it, and maybe the last fight before they leave Brokeback.

An interesting and light-shedding thought, welshwitch. I admit I was more struck by Ennis's physical violence with other people - the fireworks party, or even the argument about lma going to work instead of serving dinner. There might have been sexual frustration there (isn't there always  ?  ) but violence can also signify fear.

About the last fight, it is also interesting that Ennis didn't really want to be enlightened about Jack's trips to Mexico. His fear of losing Jack was so great it would have turned into the ultimate - murderous - violence.

[tpe]

Does anyone share my suspicion that the lasso scene between the two of them was an attempt by Jack to draw Ennis into something more physical...  The sense of play has an intrinsic eroticism, IMO.  But it certainly did not end the way Jack had hoped it would.

Flwrchild in fact has an interesting insight about this that she will share with us in a moment...

[FlwrChild]

I can certainly see it this way because it reminds me of the scene immediately following SNIT, where they are roughhousing and its so playful and romantic. The lasso scene begins in such a similar way, but ends so differently.

[CrimsonSky]

I can certainly see it this way because it reminds me of the scene immediately following SNIT, where they are roughhousing and its so playful and romantic. The lasso scene begins in such a similar way, but ends so differently.

I totally agree with this,Ennis had obviously been upset since finding out they had to leave early, and, by the way Jack looks at him before he goes over to him with the rope, it's clear that he wants to comfort him, or at least cheer him up, and also, Jack's probably hoping for one last bout of love-making before they leave. The difference is, of course, Ennis initiates the playfight after SNIT, but he doesn't want to "play" in the lasso scene, he's just too upset at the thought of leaving Brokeback and leaving Jack, and that pain comes out as anger and violence instead

[tpe]

I can certainly see it this way because it reminds me of the scene immediately following SNIT, where they are roughhousing and its so playful and romantic. The lasso scene begins in such a similar way, but ends so differently.

I totally agree with this,Ennis had obviously been upset since finding out they had to leave early, and, by the way Jack looks at him before he goes over to him with the rope, it's clear that he wants to comfort him, or at least cheer him up, and also, Jack's probably hoping for one last bout of love-making before they leave. The difference is, of course, Ennis initiates the playfight after SNIT, but he doesn't want to "play" in the lasso scene, he's just too upset at the thought of leaving Brokeback and leaving Jack, and that pain comes out as anger and violence instead

Yes, I love the way you put it here.  It definitely had the feel of a prelude to love-making.  Violence is certainly the handmaid to their love-making...

[welshwitch]

Symbolically it's Jack trying to tie Ennis to him, but the rope drops away and Ennis is free. Then it catches him again; this time it trips him up and makes him fall, as his feelings for Jack will trip him and trap him for the rest of his life.

[tpe]

Symbolically it's Jack trying to tie Ennis to him, but the rope drops away and Ennis is free. Then it catches him again; this time it trips him up and makes him fall, as his feelings for Jack will trip him and trap him for the rest of his life.

Is the catcher in control here, or is it the object of desire?  No matter: the metaphor of tripping is indeed very apt. 

[ksxks]

On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed. 

When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit.  Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".

Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!

Love your entire post gimmejack but this i think is a wonderful observation, one i hadn't noticed! It makes perfect sense - thanks for pointing it out, i will be looking for it now!

Yes, thanks gimmejack, I hadn't noticed that either.I mean, I'd noticed Jack giving Ennis the bottle, rather than pouring the whiskey into the cup, but I'd never picked up on the significance of it before. I wonder if there'll ever be a day when we've finally dissected every last detail of this movie?1 I hope not!

This is a wonderful thread, and this a fascinating detail, the sharing the bottle, the intimacy implied in their doing that.

Just the subject of the "clues" they had to pick up, Jack in particular.  This is not like a man picking up a woman, needless to say.  Everything had to be less overt than that.  But since we're looking for these clues, they can be seen from the first day.  But particularly, the whole day leading up to FNIT -- lots of stuff going on that day, already mentioned.  I don't really have anything new to add, I just like the discussion. 

kathy

And I sure think there is plenty more for us to dissect!

[ksxks]

Before responding to that last question, tpe, I must say :

And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him.  Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place.  Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack.  Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling).  Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).

Very good observations, jesseanne. May I add also those moments where the two of them are together and not talking ? Silence between 2 people is only comfortable, I believe, when there is affection in the air.

Tpe : my feeling is that Ennis couldn't have made the first move. Even after four f*ing years, it was Jack who made contact. Ennis threw himself into the response, not the initiative. Even Cassie was the initiator.

Perhaps.  The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult.  No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.

However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior.  Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days.  Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it.  Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men.  Sleeping close for warmth, all of it.  Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.

This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies."  (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)

I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy.  But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.

kathy

[ksxks]

Perhaps.  The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult.  No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.

There are silences that kill, silences that rebuff, silences that need to be respected as legitimate "not now" messages, and other silences that mean "what are you waiting for, a matin' call ?"

( ) Men ! So complicated !

LOL!!  You know, this is really true.  If this movie was about two women, they would be talk-talk-talking.  They still might send out mixed signals or not read each other right, though.  I know that's a generalization, but your "Men! So complicated!" -- men and their silences -- made me think of that.

And, insightful and also amusing words about silences.

kathy

[ksxks]

Glynn - I don't think it's so much what Ennis says as how he says it and his expression when he does. He's looking straight at Jack and there's something in his eyes - some kind of twinkle - that suggests he's thinking about sinning and not once he comes down off the mountain but right there, with Jack.

We can also get that take on Ennis's meaning of "sinner" because of what Jack had just said, "fellas like us..."

kathy

[stephan]

Oh of course, the lasso sequence... so obviously erotic, how could I have forgotten ?

I need my dvd 

[welshwitch]

Don't we all!