Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?

[Glynn]

hiya

was it some silent message like body language...say when Jack first seen Ennis on the steps of the place where they first met...was it the shyness that gave Jack the answer to Ennis sexuality....

so if this is the case he knew from the beginning...

what do you all think....?

Glynn xx

[tpe]

Hello Glynn.  Whether or not we believe in "gaydar", I do think there is something to be said about subtle or coded body language. 

Sometimes, I do think such protocols can be subconsciously driven, triggered perhaps by some primordial instinct or mating pattern in early humans.

But to be sure, sometimes, we just take a chance.

I will not be too confessional here, but I do think sometimes, our attraction gets the better of us and we proceed to act in a "hell come what may" attitude.   Even in the cities, this can be dangerous, but we sometimes do it nonetheless as a calculated risk.  At stake is our own personal desires.

Perhaps this was the case with Jack...

Perhaps not...

[NoReins]

I think that Jack had seen something in Ennis's eyes when he looked at him - almost like he was seeing a mirror of what he was feeling himself. There's been lots of discussion elsewhere about the flirting that went on - such as the slightest of touches between them when Ennis got back to camp after coming across the bear, Jack fooling around to make Ennis laugh, Ennis's "you may be a sinner" speech and so on - and I think all of that contibuted to Jack feeling like he could make a move.

[christie wood]

I think that Jack had seen something in Ennis's eyes when he looked at him - almost like he was seeing a mirror of what he was feeling himself. There's been lots of discussion elsewhere about the flirting that went on - such as the slightest of touches between them when Ennis got back to camp after coming across the bear, Jack fooling around to make Ennis laugh, Ennis's "you may be a sinner" speech and so on - and I think all of that contibuted to Jack feeling like he could make a move.

I agree.  Also, remember the "the most I've spoke in a year" scene?  That was a really telling scene, because it showed that Ennis was comfortable enough to open up to Jack, and felt he could talk about his family and I think he was glad and that he wanted to.  I'm not saying that was a clear indication to Jack that there was something more sexual going on, but it was certainly a move beyond friendship, and Jack was obviously attracted to Ennis, and all of their close contact and talks by the campfire just emphasised that to him.  Jack was drunk when he made a move too, remember.  That always helps to give you a bit of extra courage to do something you wouldnt normally do if you were sober.

[NoReins]

I think that Jack had seen something in Ennis's eyes when he looked at him - almost like he was seeing a mirror of what he was feeling himself. There's been lots of discussion elsewhere about the flirting that went on - such as the slightest of touches between them when Ennis got back to camp after coming across the bear, Jack fooling around to make Ennis laugh, Ennis's "you may be a sinner" speech and so on - and I think all of that contibuted to Jack feeling like he could make a move.

I agree.  Also, remember the "the most I've spoke in a year" scene?  That was a really telling scene, because it showed that Ennis was comfortable enough to open up to Jack, and felt he could talk about his family and I think he was glad and that he wanted to.  I'm not saying that was a clear indication to Jack that there was something more sexual going on, but it was certainly a move beyond friendship, and Jack was obviously attracted to Ennis, and all of their close contact and talks by the campfire just emphasised that to him.  Jack was drunk when he made a move too, remember.  That always helps to give you a bit of extra courage to do something you wouldnt normally do if you were sober.

Hmm, I'm not convinced Jack was drunk, actually. Ennis certainly was, but when Jack gets up to get the extra blanket for Ennis he walks completely normally (unlike Ennis's poor attempts to stand up!) and he also speaks normally when he's talking about Ennis freezing to death out there. I don't think he was completely sober, but I think he was completely in control of his actions.....

[Glynn]

hiya

I think it was obvious from the moment he was shaving and seen Ennis on the steps through his mirror...almost like he was figuring him out...Jack knew then...and it also was like past experience shining through....

I also note that Jack in the tent the first night was not going to take no for an answer it was like this will go my way...I understand you Ennis....but what I also noticed was that Jack to me appeared surprised when Ennis turned him on his stomach...as though it was Jack that wanted to be the dominant one and maybe this threw Jack and made him fall in love with him...someone being a bit more powerful than he had expected....

yes there is always a hint of unspoken words like a gaydar when it comes to fine tuning into other gay men or even women...but it is harder for the gay community because signs can be misread....so it throws most of us back into a closet type situation....

glynn xx

[shieldmaid]

Hi, Glynn, thanks for bringing up a really fascinating topic.  I feel like the attraction between Ennis and Jack is implied by a lot of different interactions, as christie and NoReins both pointed out.  Part of what we love about Jack is his self-confidence and daring--I think his bullriding kind of symbolizes that aspect of his personality.  But Ennis definitely gives him lots of different signs.  Maybe one important difference between them is that Jack knew where he was going and what he wanted to happen, while Ennis maybe recognized that he really liked Jack and even that he was attracted to him, but didn't really know what might happen as a result.  For me the question is also the flip side of what you asked--would Ennis have made a move on Jack if Jack hadn't?  I don't think so.  But of course we do have him entering the tent to seek out Jack during SNIT . . . only after Jack came onto him during FNIT.  Hmm.  I'm getting a little OT here, but thanks for raising some thought-provoking ideas!  peace, shieldmaid

[tpe]

Wonderful discussion everyone.  Thank you.  And yes, "You may be a sinner..." should be listed among the scenes with a strong double meaning.  The context is clear enough.

[shieldmaid]

Wonderful discussion everyone.  Thank you.  And yes, "You may be a sinner..." should be listed among the scenes with a strong double meaning.  The context is clear enough.

Absolutely, tpe--that is one of my favorite interactions between them.  The fact that Ennis says, " . . . I ain't yet had the opportunity" can only mean that he was looking for such a chance!

[tpe]

Wonderful discussion everyone.  Thank you.  And yes, "You may be a sinner..." should be listed among the scenes with a strong double meaning.  The context is clear enough.

Absolutely, tpe--that is one of my favorite interactions between them.  The fact that Ennis says, " . . . I ain't yet had the opportunity" can only mean that he was looking for such a chance!

So yes, you do believe that Ennis also lead Jack on, perhaps in a subconscious way.  How could he not have sent subtle signals?  It was deep inside him -- this attraction to Jack.  He needed a catalyst.  Jack and pure chance gave him that. 

Fortune often favors the reckless.

[jesseanne21]

Jack was definitely attracted to Ennis from the first moment (looking at him in the rearview mirror, pretending not to notice when Ennis washed up).

And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him.  Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place.  Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack.  Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling).  Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).

Also, in the short story, it states that both Ennis and Jack slept in the tent the first night on the mountain.  Then Ennis was the camp tender and slept in the tent.  Even though Ennis and Jack had switched jobs, it still would have made sense for Ennis to sleep in the tent if he was too drunk to go up to the sheep. 

I think Ennis chose to sleep outside the tent when he was drunk because he was afraid of what might happen.  And, Jack was pretty good at reading Ennis by that point.  I think Jack knew that Ennis was too afraid to make the first move, so he just did.  It didn't take too much effort on Jack's part for Ennis to comply, because it was what they both wanted.

[tpe]

Jack was definitely attracted to Ennis from the first moment (looking at him in the rearview mirror, pretending not to notice when Ennis washed up).

And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him.  Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place.  Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack.  Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling).  Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).

Also, in the short story, it states that both Ennis and Jack slept in the tent the first night on the mountain.  Then Ennis was the camp tender and slept in the tent.  Even though Ennis and Jack had switched jobs, it still would have made sense for Ennis to sleep in the tent if he was too drunk to go up to the sheep. 

I think Ennis chose to sleep outside the tent when he was drunk because he was afraid of what might happen.  And, Jack was pretty good at reading Ennis by that point.  I think Jack knew that Ennis was too afraid to make the first move, so he just did.  It didn't take too much effort on Jack's part for Ennis to comply, because it was what they both wanted.

jesseanne21, this is quite a wonderful deduction.  It is certainly plausible.  I love it.

Thank you.

[ande_nem]

I was wondering the other day, if Jack hadn't been confident to make a move on Ennis, would they have gotten together at all?

[NoReins]

I was wondering the other day, if Jack hadn't been confident to make a move on Ennis, would they have gotten together at all?

I think they would have. I think even if Jack hadn't been confident enough at that point, their friendship would have continued to grow and sooner or later it would have become intimate. Call it fate or destiny or whatever you want - some things are just meant to be.

We have a saying here in Scotland - what's for ye will no' go by ye. It means that if something is your destiny, it will happen somehow, and that's what I feel about Ennis and Jack's relationship.

[welshwitch]

It's implied in the movie too that ennis is drunk where Jack is at least less so. Therefore if Jack had made his move and Ennis had rebuffed him, he had a ready-made excuse - drunk out of my mind, didn't know what I was doing.

And "reckless" is a good word; given all that had gone before, and that they'd been up there on their own for some time and were only nineteen ( anyone remember nineteen?) Jack may well have thought, "To hell with it, it's worth a try". I don't think love was involved at this point - that came later. 

[aimi15]

Hmm, i also think that from the opening scenes Jack had an indication of what a closed person Ennis could be, and the initial days on the mountain when conversation was a little stilted between them reinforced that for him. When he finally realised Ennis was opening up to him and they were forging a friendship, even a closeness, he must have known he had achieved something very special - getting under Ennis' skin, getting through the barrier Ennis surrounded himself with.
Jack took a chance but i don't think it was a foolhardy one. He had enough trust in the fledging relationship they had to take the next step, and turned out - he was right to try.

[tpe]

It's implied in the movie too that ennis is drunk where Jack is at least less so. Therefore if Jack had made his move and Ennis had rebuffed him, he had a ready-made excuse - drunk out of my mind, didn't know what I was doing.

And "reckless" is a good word; given all that had gone before, and that they'd been up there on their own for some time and were only nineteen ( anyone remember nineteen?) Jack may well have thought, "To hell with it, it's worth a try". I don't think love was involved at this point - that came later. 

Yes, that time was certainly an opportune moment.  Well, they could have used being drunk as an excuse for the morning after.  But they didn't!  Jack's first words: "See you for supper."  It must have deeply disturbed Ennis.

[gimmejack]

There were so many subtle and not so subtle clues (you may be a sinner)...Jack was very intuitive and tuned in.
When you are interested in something, anything...you tend to zoom in and focus and pick up on these clues.  If it were someone with no attraction to Ennis and no connection, those clues may have gone unnoticed.  When Jack felt he had properly read all the signs, he got him liquored up, much more so then he was...and moved in for the kill.  He had it planned for a long time and didnt bat an eye when Ennis refused to come in the tent initially...Jack was just waiting for the right opportunity.

On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed. 

When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit.  Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".

Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!

[welshwitch]

In fact the only discussion they had, up on the mountain, involved denying the fact that they were queer. Neither was entrely comfortable in that discussion - I don't think Jack knew he'd done the right thing till Ennis came voluntarily and as far as we know stone-cold sober into the tent.

[aimi15]

On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed. 

When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit.  Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".

Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!

Love your entire post gimmejack but this i think is a wonderful observation, one i hadn't noticed! It makes perfect sense - thanks for pointing it out, i will be looking for it now!

[CrimsonSky]

On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed. 

When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit.  Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".

Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!

Love your entire post gimmejack but this i think is a wonderful observation, one i hadn't noticed! It makes perfect sense - thanks for pointing it out, i will be looking for it now!

Yes, thanks gimmejack, I hadn't noticed that either.I mean, I'd noticed Jack giving Ennis the bottle, rather than pouring the whiskey into the cup, but I'd never picked up on the significance of it before. I wonder if there'll ever be a day when we've finally dissected every last detail of this movie?1 I hope not!

[tpe]

On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed. 

When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit.  Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".

Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!

In the SNIT: it has been noted before that as they part lips upon their fist kiss, you see a thin thread of saliva bridging the gap. 

Yes, for me, the exchange of bodily fluids is a form of possession.   It was only then that Jack could be sure that Ennis was his.

[shieldmaid]

On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed. 

When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit.  Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".

Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!

In the SNIT: it has been noted before that as they part lips upon their fist kiss, you see a thin thread of saliva bridging the gap. 

Yes, for me, the exchange of bodily fluids is a form of possession.   It was only then that Jack could be sure that Ennis was his.

I love this observation!!  It goes along with the whole theme of them taking care of each other--but also shows how comfortable they were becoming with each other.  No fear of "cooties" here!  Also an interesting contrast with the scene when they're in the bar, the night before they go up to BBM--they're drinking beer, out of bottles (just like Ennis does when he waits for Jack to appear in the reunion scene), but when they get intimate they tend to share things.  Whiskey, a joint, lips . . .

[gimmejack]

AHHH yes, the exchanging of body fluids...Mr. LEE knew his brokies would be obsessing over the microscopic details as he did so masterfully.  A poet and a genius he is. 

[tpe]

We have been discussing how Jack knew how and when to make a move on Ennis.  A question that pops up is: would it have been inconceivable for Ennis to have made the first move?  Is this too far-fetched?  Perhpas Ennis was simply pre-empted...

   

[stephan]

Before responding to that last question, tpe, I must say :

And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him.  Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place.  Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack.  Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling).  Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).

Very good observations, jesseanne. May I add also those moments where the two of them are together and not talking ? Silence between 2 people is only comfortable, I believe, when there is affection in the air.

Tpe : my feeling is that Ennis couldn't have made the first move. Even after four f*ing years, it was Jack who made contact. Ennis threw himself into the response, not the initiative. Even Cassie was the initiator.

[Twisted]

I don't know if this is quite the same as the question, but...

I think that the point when Jack knew, that Ennis might be interested, was the scene when Ennis is taking he's clothes off and talking to Jack about the coyote. "balls on him size a apples.. And Jack couldn't concentrade anymore, the can opening wasn't so easy anymore and then it was very hard to him not to look when Ennis was washing him self.

And next, Ennis is talking about the tent: "tent don't look right"... He wanted to be just right for them. And Jack's saying it ain't going nowhere, let it be.. And laughing and maybe thinking "maybe i should move on him soon. or something like that.

And the final point was you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity. Then Jack thought now is the time.

I might be little off the track maybe.

[tpe]

Before responding to that last question, tpe, I must say :

And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him.  Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place.  Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack.  Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling).  Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).

Very good observations, jesseanne. May I add also those moments where the two of them are together and not talking ? Silence between 2 people is only comfortable, I believe, when there is affection in the air.

Tpe : my feeling is that Ennis couldn't have made the first move. Even after four f*ing years, it was Jack who made contact. Ennis threw himself into the response, not the initiative. Even Cassie was the initiator.

Perhaps.  The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult.  No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.

[tpe]

I don't know if this is quite the same as the question, but...

I think that the point when Jack knew, that Ennis might be interested, was the scene when Ennis is taking he's clothes off and talking to Jack about the coyote. "balls on him size a apples.. And Jack couldn't concentrade anymore, the can opening wasn't so easy anymore and then it was very hard to him not to look when Ennis was washing him self.

Yes, I had wondered if Jack was pondering a move here, but perhaps he was just pondering a quick glance.  He certainly could not concentrate. 

And the final point was you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity. Then Jack thought now is the time.

Yes, I think this scene was like an open invitation to Jack.  He must have considered the possibility of moving on Ennis soon after that.

[stephan]

Perhaps.  The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult.  No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.

There are silences that kill, silences that rebuff, silences that need to be respected as legitimate "not now" messages, and other silences that mean "what are you waiting for, a matin' call ?"

( ) Men ! So complicated !