Author Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?  (Read 165788 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #60 on: Jul 02, 2006, 10:48 AM »
However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior.  Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days.  Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it.  Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men.  Sleeping close for warmth, all of it.  Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.

This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies."  (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)

I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy.  But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.

kathy


Kathy, this is a good observation.  An older friend of mine did tell me that back in the 1950s, it was not strange for pairs of campers to share a bed for warmth.  He noted that in such cases, you usually woke up cuddled up against each other if it was cold.  And in a lot of cases, it was nothing more than that.

Certainly, our knowledge of the story is either a stimulant or a crutch. 



Offline edgar

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #61 on: Jul 03, 2006, 11:14 PM »
However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior.  Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days.  Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it.  Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men.  Sleeping close for warmth, all of it.  Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.

This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies."  (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)

I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy.  But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.

kathy


Kathy, this is a good observation.  An older friend of mine did tell me that back in the 1950s, it was not strange for pairs of campers to share a bed for warmth.  He noted that in such cases, you usually woke up cuddled up against each other if it was cold.  And in a lot of cases, it was nothing more than that.


It wasn't so long ago in this country that one might be expected to share a bed with an acquaintance or a relative when people came to visit.... And certainly in the lesser developed regions of the world, it is still common to share a bed from time to time.

Anyone remember the sequence (near the beginning) of _Moby Dick_ when Ishmael shared a bed with a complete stranger (Queequeg)?

Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #62 on: Jul 04, 2006, 09:02 AM »
It happens among men staying at inns in several eighteenth-century novels. And of course, in the past when people often slept in some  if not all of their clothes, it was much more obviously just a wayi of keeping warm. Families shared beds too, before we all became so obsessively private and so obsessed by the sexual possibilities of every situation.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #63 on: Jul 04, 2006, 09:06 AM »
However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior.  Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days.  Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it.  Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men.  Sleeping close for warmth, all of it.  Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.

This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies."  (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)

I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy.  But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.

kathy


Kathy, this is a good observation.  An older friend of mine did tell me that back in the 1950s, it was not strange for pairs of campers to share a bed for warmth.  He noted that in such cases, you usually woke up cuddled up against each other if it was cold.  And in a lot of cases, it was nothing more than that.


It wasn't so long ago in this country that one might be expected to share a bed with an acquaintance or a relative when people came to visit.... And certainly in the lesser developed regions of the world, it is still common to share a bed from time to time.

Anyone remember the sequence (near the beginning) of _Moby Dick_ when Ishmael shared a bed with a complete stranger (Queequeg)?


Hehehehehe.  Should we go into a discussion on the homoerotic subtexts of Miby Dick?  Hehehehehehe.

Sorry, OOT.


Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #64 on: Jul 04, 2006, 09:10 AM »
It happens among men staying at inns in several eighteenth-century novels. And of course, in the past when people often slept in some  if not all of their clothes, it was much more obviously just a wayi of keeping warm. Families shared beds too, before we all became so obsessively private and so obsessed by the sexual possibilities of every situation.

And of course, in a much earlier time, the poor slept in one bed -- entire families, in a one room hovel where the animals also got bedded down in the cold season...  It must have been quite inconvenient during moments of conjugal love-making...

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #65 on: Jul 04, 2006, 10:00 AM »
That would not make for romantic moments with a cow mooing right beside ya.Ennis gave several clues to Jack leading uo tp first NIT, starting with the first watch Jack had with the sheep. when Jack is alone he looks and a fire burnig in the night,contrary to their boss's istructions. I think this one way Ennis says I know its probably lonely but I'm here can you see me? Then he shoots an elk against the law for him after loosing all the food with the bear.( Although I think Jack bitched up a storm about the food situation).next: traded places with him and going to watch the sheep. Provided Jack companionship with their campfire taks ,sharing the whiskey,but the most obvious clue was definitly the " you may be a sinner" line .They were all thoghtful gestures on Ennis's part and were not lost on Jack.
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Offline amtamburo

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #66 on: Jul 04, 2006, 11:04 AM »
Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!

The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.

As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.

On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.

Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #67 on: Jul 04, 2006, 11:17 AM »
I agree with almost all the last post, specially the comment that Jack sees and seizes an opportunity - he is an opportunist, elsewhere in the story too. Jack is Jack from beginning to, almost, the end, except when they're saying goodbye. I don't know, howeverm whether Ennis could ever have overcome all his inhibitions and prior conditioning - if he saw himsef as not queer, then he wouldn't make the first move. Somehow it's easier to respond to someone else's first move - I think Jack had to initiate things.

(And I am not about to discuss homoerotic subtexts in the most boring book ever to come out of North America, so there.)

Offline amtamburo

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #68 on: Jul 04, 2006, 11:27 AM »
Quote
I don't know, however whether Ennis could ever have overcome all his inhibitions and prior conditioning - if he saw himsef as not queer, then he wouldn't make the first move. Somehow it's easier to respond to someone else's first move - I think Jack had to initiate things.

Perhaps so, Ennis was pretty closed up and scared. As I said, part of me thinks not, but that other part has to wonder if perhaps one night after drinking to much he might say somthing that basically says "Come an get me big boy" in a much more obvious manner then his "ain't yet had the oppurtunity" remark. I don't think he would have ever had the guts to make a physical move, but perhaps verbally...  :)
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2006, 08:04 PM by amtamburo »
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Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #69 on: Jul 04, 2006, 08:19 PM »
Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!

The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.

As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.

On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.

Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…


Oh do go on as long as you like.  God do we ever tire of discussing the fine points at length?  No.  I loved how you described all of it, from Jack's perspective, from Ennis's.  I have a woman friend who was not moved by BBM (always surprises me!) and said she didn't see these two men having an attraction and getting together.  How could she not see it??  All the little things we saw, that you mentioned.

Although, if Jack hadn't been "inclined" that way, I do wonder if they would have just remained two guys doing a summer's work up there.  If the other guy was totally straight with absolutely no inclination of being attracted to men, I can't see Ennis taking any chance, even given his own (arguable) inclinations.

I know I sometimes take the "devil's advocate" view, and question the assumptions we're basing our discussions on, but I assure you, I am totally convinced of and in love with the love between Ennis and Jack...

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Offline CherryCake

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #70 on: Jul 04, 2006, 11:57 PM »
Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!

The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.

As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.

On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.

Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…

What a great topic and wonderful post, Amtamburo.  I enjoyed reading this so much!   :) :)
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Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #71 on: Jul 05, 2006, 08:03 AM »
I have missed so much in this thread the last few days.  I must reread this more carefully.  But I have seen enough to say thank you for all the wonderful posts.


Offline christie wood

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #72 on: Jul 05, 2006, 08:59 AM »
Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!

The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.

As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.

On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.

Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…


Great post amtamburo, and I agree, its hard to keep a post short sometimes when we get to talking about our favourite boys.....

I think Jack had an inkling about Ennis from the beginning, he was the more wordly wise one of the two, and he was attracted to Ennis from day one, IMO.  As far as Ennis making a move on Jack, I dont think he would have.  Far too repressed and not able to articulate any of his feelings, never mind show them.  But - something struck me when watching the FNIT, when they first spring apart after Ennis wakes up and discovers where Jack has his hand - when Jack goes to touch Ennis and has his hands on his face, Ennis does the same, I always find this really sweet and quite romantic, even though this isnt a particularly romantic scene (as compared to SNIT anyway) - Ennis obviously feels something for Jack, and wants to touch him in the way that Jack is touching him.  I think this is the moment when Jack realises that Ennis is interested, because they stay like that for a while, and Ennis doesnt move or take Jack's hands off him.  Its a very telling moment in this scene, IMO.  And of course, it leads to Jack taking the lead and initiating the sex......
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #73 on: Jul 07, 2006, 12:16 PM »
And of course Ennis then jumps in violently in an Ennis sort of way, almost as if he can't believe what he's doing or can't wait, maybe as if he's given away something about himself to Jack, given off some vibes he doesn't want to have, but can't help himself any longer.

Jack had picked up enough signs to know it was worth a try; it's possible to see in someone something they haven't yet seen in themself and Jack has spent a fair amount of time talking to/looking at/listening to Ennis.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #74 on: Jul 07, 2006, 12:21 PM »
And of course Ennis then jumps in violently in an Ennis sort of way, almost as if he can't believe what he's doing or can't wait, maybe as if he's given away something about himself to Jack, given off some vibes he doesn't want to have, but can't help himself any longer.

Jack had picked up enough signs to know it was worth a try; it's possible to see in someone something they haven't yet seen in themself and Jack has spent a fair amount of time talking to/looking at/listening to Ennis.


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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #75 on: Jul 07, 2006, 02:52 PM »
You did it again tpe!
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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #76 on: Jul 08, 2006, 01:06 AM »
And of course Ennis then jumps in violently in an Ennis sort of way, almost as if he can't believe what he's doing or can't wait, maybe as if he's given away something about himself to Jack, given off some vibes he doesn't want to have, but can't help himself any longer.

Jack had picked up enough signs to know it was worth a try; it's possible to see in someone something they haven't yet seen in themself and Jack has spent a fair amount of time talking to/looking at/listening to Ennis.


 Never seek to tell thy love
 Love that never told can be;
 For the gentle wind does move
 Silently, invisibly.





Absolutely beautiful...
"Who would give a law to lovers? Love is unto itself a higher law."
~Boethius~

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #77 on: Jul 08, 2006, 03:00 PM »
It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #78 on: Jul 08, 2006, 03:06 PM »
It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.

Is that so?

I don't really agree with you...you cannot judge the first night they had sex with a lifetime of sex

Ennis later on shows a lot of gentleness, and so does Jack.

Annie Proulx did not go into details there, because there is no need.

Any couple has it's fantasies and lovemaking habits, sometimes it rough , sometimes is not....

They were compatible, for many reasons...but this one, i do not agree with. Sorry, my POV
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
~ Michel Eyquem de Montaigne (1533-1592) ~ (Thankx to gimmejack)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #79 on: Jul 08, 2006, 03:30 PM »
I'm stickin to my guns here.  respectfully  Anit foolin
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #80 on: Jul 08, 2006, 03:33 PM »
I'm stickin to my guns here.  respectfully  Anit foolin

of course..no worries, we all have our POVs and I respect yours! x ;)
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
~ Michel Eyquem de Montaigne (1533-1592) ~ (Thankx to gimmejack)

Offline CherryCake

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #81 on: Jul 08, 2006, 04:16 PM »
It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.
Aintfoolin' I like your style.  No need for no fancy 5 doller words, you cut right to the quick.
"Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?"




Hit me up on Yahoo: PieceOfCherryCake

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #82 on: Jul 08, 2006, 07:58 PM »
Noyin fancy about me. I truly love this thread, and respect and appreciate everyone's POV.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline NoReins

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #83 on: Jul 09, 2006, 05:23 AM »
It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.

Is that so?

I don't really agree with you...you cannot judge the first night they had sex with a lifetime of sex

Ennis later on shows a lot of gentleness, and so does Jack.

Annie Proulx did not go into details there, because there is no need.

Any couple has it's fantasies and lovemaking habits, sometimes it rough , sometimes is not....

They were compatible, for many reasons...but this one, i do not agree with. Sorry, my POV

Yep, I'm with Froggy on this one. I think it was rough the first time because anything else would have been too much intimacy too soon for Ennis, but I think the SNIT shows more of what it became between them.
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #84 on: Jul 09, 2006, 07:30 AM »
I'm with Froggy and NoReins here. The first time they are semi-drunk and in Ennis's case at least embarking on the unknown and doing something that before this he would have regarded as forbidden. Once the first encounter is over, it becomes easier and therefore doesn't need to be violent; in the ss they never really move beyond quick, violent sex but the movie is more subtle, or at least different - it shows tenderness and affection too.

Offline Rosie

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #85 on: Jul 10, 2006, 09:31 AM »
 :h)
This is my first post and I'm nervous - so be kind if you think I'm an idiot or I haven't watched the same movie as you!
I read the short story first so I already knew what was coming when I saw the movie, and because of that, I thought that falling in love with each other just sort of happened unexpectedly for both of them, although in the  movie Jack falls first. In that frame of mind, I don't think that Ennis gave him any sign that he could make a move on him sexually. All the signs he gave him were just friendship signs, telling your friend that you are a virgin, trying to get soup because they like it etc., were just signs of a close friendship developing. Jack made a move on Ennis that first time because he knew that HE had fallen for Ennis,  Ennis was drunk, and Jack was just drunk enough not to be able to resist the temptation and hope that Ennis would go along with it.  No planning just events unfolding naturally.

But sometimes (strictly in the movie only) it seems to me that Jack has had experience of sex with another man before -  because of the way he is that first night in the tent. Then in that mood I can sometimes see it differently.
Then the question wouldn't be How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis, but, How did Jack know WHEN to make a move on Ennis? - because he was always going to.

If Jack was experienced with men it could be possible that he gained that experience the first year he was on Brokeback Mountain. He is only 19 this year and he has already been on the mountain once before making him 18 at the time, so it may have been his first time away from home.  Jack said to Ennis that they lost 42 sheep up there the previous year due to a storm, a fact Aguiree confirms when he says to Jack in his office that first day 'I don't want that again'  It could be possible that they lost that many sheep due to a storm, but it also could be from the same reason that Jack and Ennis lost one on the first night together - because no one was looking after them. Aguirre looks Jack in the eye when he says 'you sleep with the sheep' and Jack looks down or something (I can't remember at this moment, but he does react). Now maybe this is a new thing and the year before both the herder and the camper slept in the camp, or maybe he is just reitterating to Jack that that is what he must do, but the implication is that the year before for whatever reason both Jack and the other person slept in the camp together. Now if this was a married man, maybe away from home and missing his wife he could have taken advantage of having 'a one shot thing' whilst up on the mountain just to fulfill his needs.  If Jack did indeed go along with this it would explain his experience, because I doubt it would have been easy anywhere else for him to get it, at home or on the rodeo circuit.
If that were the case then when Jack came down the previous year he would have been sexually experienced and maybe when he tried doing a bit of rodeoing like he said he did, he could have met some girls but found out that he actually prefered men. Which living in that place at that time would have presented him with problems.
He might then have seen another year on Brokeback as an opportunity to be with a man again. That would explain his great interest in Ennis that first day outside Aguirres office. It would also explain why he said to Ennis 'that aint the point, we should both be in this camp'. But when he met Ennis and realised how quiet and reserved Ennis was, he knew he couldn't just jump straight in. So he had to take his time and develop a friendship with Ennis first, which is when he started to fall in love with him. Something he DIDN'T have planned.
I think this would also explain the way in which Jack made a move on Ennis, with his back to him, no kissing or anything like that to frighten Ennis off, (I also think this may have been the way it was done to Jack the previous year) just relying on a 19 year olds hormones accepting sex wherever it comes from with no great show of love or tenderness accompanying it. In the end that is what happened. Now Ennis may have been falling in love with Jack himself at that point, I don't know. But even if he was he probably would have no way of expressing it at that point.
I think that would explain how nervous Jack was the next day, because he really wanted to get close to Ennis and was worried he'd frightened him off. So the SNIT starts the same way with Jack taking his shirt off and leaving the flap of the tent open, this would show Ennis that sex was available again and Jack was trying to tempt him in with that. But when Ennis came in and didn't just jump on Jack, but seemed nervous and respectful of Jack, Jack risked going for what he really wanted which was tenderness and love with Ennis, and he probably couldn't believe his luck when it worked.
When they came down from the mountain this could be why Jack says to Ennis 'gonna do this again next year?' and doesn't try harder to stop them seperating, he may think that giving Ennis that long to consider his feelings he may, like Jack the previous year, decide that he did prefer being with men. It was obviously a blow to hear that Ennis was getting married, but if it took him a year to figure out his feelings he must have thought Ennis needs time too. That would also explain why he went back the next year, in the hope that Ennis had come to the same conclusion as he had the previous year and had decided to go to the mountain to see if Jack was there. (and according to the book Ennis had taken about a year to realise that Jack was what he wanted) But unfortunately in that year Ennis had got married and gotten into something that he couldn't get out of.
Well there you go - I didn't mean to be that long winded, but once I started - it just kept growing!
I don't always think that is what happened, just sometimes!  But then again that is the beauty of this movie, Ang Lee left so much of it a blank canvas that we can all draw our own pictures on!
Hope I haven't bored you!
Rosie.
« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2006, 08:11 AM by Rosie »
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #86 on: Jul 10, 2006, 09:39 AM »
Rosie welcome!! Never a bore! You made some very interesting points. And you're right - part of the beauty of this movie is all the open spaces that we can fill in as we choose!
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

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The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #87 on: Jul 10, 2006, 09:43 AM »
I echo FlwrChild here.  Welcome Rosie.  The beauty of BBM is its ability to create spaces of the Heart. 


Offline Rosie

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #88 on: Jul 10, 2006, 10:02 AM »
Thanks for the welcome!
I've just read through what I wrote, (duh, I should have done that before I posted) and I think that although I have made Jack seem very calculating here, with everything planned, I should have made it clear that that was all before he met Ennis. After Ennis everything changed for Jack, and he was not looking for oppotunities, neither was he calculating, he was just madly in love and I think he stayed that way, till the very end. And I think that Ennis loved him just as much.
Rosie
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #89 on: Jul 10, 2006, 12:15 PM »
This is a great post! But I disagree with the part about Jack being sexually occupied with someone while 42 sheep got killed Thats ALOT of sheep. I think Jack would have mentioned at some point if there was someone helping him the previous summer. I think he was letting Ennis know how dangerous the job can be and to show his true dislike for Aguirre.IMO.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...