Author Topic: The next morning, What were they thinking? (Read 53278 times)

BBM Fan · « **Reply #90 on:** Jan 07, 2007, 01:14 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Dec 20, 2006, 07:36 PM

Nicely elucidated, WW and aintfoolin. Resolution was indeed achieved to a great extent in the SNIT. The way the tension breaks even in the change in the accompanying music was so beautifully done. A most wonderful transition from all the stress and strain of the preceding scenes that were so full of doubt and uncertainty.

Does anyone know why the music from the SNIT isn't on the soundtrack? It's so beautiful!

BBM Fan · « **Reply #91 on:** Jan 07, 2007, 01:25 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 21, 2006, 12:26 PM

Yes he did indeed" found himself". Jack had swung the door wide open to his heart He just couldn't find the courage to walk through to the other side. Only when he was with Jack could he be his true self.It still baffles me that after SNIT Ennis still couldn't commit It was such a life-changing experience. An acknowledgement of what he wanted to be. I suppose fear from childhood trauma is to blame.When I think about the whole BBM experience Ennis had, it was Jack that taught and introduced Ennis to alot. There were alot of "firsts" for him up there but once they came down to the real world Ennis balked. Jack was willing but Ennis just wasn't able. there was to many places to hide.

The SNIT was such a beautiful, tender scene - so much so that I can't really express how wonderful it was. Jack was so gentle with Ennis and Ennis - he finally gave in & you could see the pain, the longing and relief on his face & in his moans. :\'(

Several have expressed on this thread that it was too bad the boys couldn't/didn't express themselves verbally more. I feel the same - I wanted those words! In an interview I saw with Ang Lee, he said that there were no words - no language - that could express what they felt for each other - that it was so special & precious that there was no way to adequately articulate their feelings - their feelings/behavior were so private. After hearing that, I can certainly see why there were not a lot of words. But still - we need to dissect all the scenes & squeeze out every word we think we hear - that's what makes it so special for all of us.

tpe · « **Reply #92 on:** Jan 08, 2007, 11:15 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jan 06, 2007, 04:50 PM

The thing is, each of these quotes are really questions. There's a tentativeness -- an unknown response --to each of them. I see them as feelers one man puts out to the other, hoping for the right answer, but never too sure of the other's reactions. Again, I think this speaks to the fact that they are not 100% sure of each other. They want the other one to want them and to be with them, but there's always some doubt.

Wonderful point, lamusica. I do think there is a tentativeness in those statements. They were grappling with each other till the very end. I think we see the struggle first in this scene.

tpe · « **Reply #93 on:** Jan 08, 2007, 11:23 AM »

Quote from: BBM Fan on Jan 07, 2007, 01:04 AM

tpe: I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on more "subtle classical allusions". I know I haven't picked up on all of them.

Thanks, BBM Fan. I know discussions of this are scattered all about the forum. But the scene with the dead sheep in most certainly classical. The whole morning-after scene is a pivot on which Jack's demise is already foretold, or at least forshadowed, IMO.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #94 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 03:22 PM »

This is true especially if your looking at it from Ennis's point of view. Any reference to homosexual activity sets Ennis's mind back to the ingrained consequences of it which could only mean bad news to him. This is unfortunate, for it goes to the essence of his denial of his own personal feelings as well as a hendrance to Jack's wishes to establish a permanant life together.Earl and Ray? Definitly.

tpe · « **Reply #95 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 03:26 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 09, 2007, 03:22 PM

This is true especially if your looking at it from Ennis's point of view. Any reference to homosexual activity sets Ennis's mind back to the ingrained consequences of it which could only mean bad news to him. This is unfortunate, for it goes to the essence of his denial of his own personal feelings as well as a hendrance to Jack's wishes to establish a permanant life together.Earl and Ray? Definitly.

What fruit therefore had you then in those things, of which you are now ashamed? For the end of them is death.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #96 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 03:56 PM »

Well said! Death, the ultimate wake up call.

tpe · « **Reply #97 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 04:03 PM »

Had Ennis been less afraid of "death", perhaps he would have realized that there is such a thing as a "living death": to live without ever having loved to the full. Had an angel come down from heaven to whisper this truth into his ear as he contemplated the dead sheep, he may have seen things in a different light. But no, it was some devil that pronounced the Great Lie: Live this way and you shall die.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #98 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 04:42 PM »

Unfortunitly "the devil" was in the form of his own father. What a shame. I'm still inclined to beleive that if it were'nt for his father's terrible deed when Ennis was a small child ,the road to his sexual awakening with Jack may have been easier traveled. The fear, not only on the kid's (Ennis) face at that moment ,but what must have stayed ingrained in his concience for many years to come, destroyed any hope of him accepting his true feelings openly about his sexuality to himself or to the one he loved so dearly.

tpe · « **Reply #99 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 04:56 PM »

It is fitting that the scenes under discussion are almost entirely wordless -- the only exception being the confrontation that comes before the SNIT. The inner drama occurs all in their head and in their souls. For Ennis, it certainly must be the memory of a father's warning and the accompanying lesson that illustrated the consequences. For Jack, it was the uncertainly of how Ennis felt about him and the possibility of rejection. Had these been put into words, they would surely prove to be inadequate. But what is certain is that both of them were weighing their own fears and doubts against the counterweight of their love, affection, and desires. For both, the balance was delicately maintained: hence the caution, hesitation, and deliberate obfuscation exhibited in the confrontation.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #100 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 04:57 AM »

This is true tpe. The absence of verbal communcation between them contributed to alot of their problem. Too much wishing, guessing and hoping on both their part, in this scene and throughout this film. At times Jack went on assumption alone. They kept each other in the dark about many things. What had just happened between them during the night was a very personal and and in some ways tramatic event. Neither seemed to understand exactly what it all meant for the future and neither was about to discuss it openly in a frank manner. Ennis , in particular did not like what it defined him to be in his paranoia, and always asummed the worse scenario. Jack, in my opinion probably would have been more open to talk about it and could be drawn out. By cutting off communicating, Ennis cheated Jack out of the only confidant he had.They both liked *doing it* , but were unwilling to try to define it. They were'nt sophisticates.
My 2 cents. Thanks.

tpe · « **Reply #101 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 08:54 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 10, 2007, 04:57 AM

This is true tpe. The absence of verbal communcation between them contributed to alot of their problem. Too much wishing, guessing and hoping on both their part, in this scene and throughout this film. At times Jack went on assumption alone. They kept each other in the dark about many things. What had just happened between them during the night was a very personal and and in some ways tramatic event. Neither seemed to understand exactly what it all meant for the future and neither was about to discuss it openly in a frank manner. Ennis , in particular did not like what it defined him to be in his paranoia, and always asummed the worse scenario. Jack, in my opinion probably would have been more open to talk about it and could be drawn out. By cutting off communicating, Ennis cheated Jack out of the only confidant he had.They both liked *doing it* , but were unwilling to try to define it. They were'nt sophisticates.
My 2 cents. Thanks.

aintfoolin, I will even try to make a comparison between the scene where Jack goes up to where Ennis is pasturing the sheep and the scene when Jack drives to Wyoming after Ennis tells him about the divorce.

In both scenes, Jack takes the initiative and goes to Ennis. But in the first one, he is guarded and does not open the exchange of words. He makes his presence known but waits for Ennis to set the tone. In the second one, Jack is taken completely off guard. He had assumed too much and thus suffered accordingly.

Too many assumptions and dreams left not fully articulated. In the first scene, it helped, as Jack knew that Ennis was not in a position to articulate his own feelings. In the second scene, Jack had jumped to conclusions, having assumed too much from Ennis's postcard announcing the divorce.

It is amazing how such assumptions and things left unsaid initially helped them, and finally hurt them in the end. Without the leap of faith, perhaps neither of them would have connected initially. But because things left unsaid where left to fester over the years, their connection bacame more and more tenuous. Such is love and life for many of us in real life.

Sometimes, the things we leave unsaid in order to move forward come back to haunt us.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #102 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 01:17 PM »

Beautifully said tpe, as you said just that small leap of faith would be all that's required. IMO it is part of the growth process in a relationship to openly communicate, letting your likes, dislikes, desires,and limits be known to the other person in the relationship once your comfortable. This removes the "guessing game" aspects of it. Even someone as inwardly wIthdrawn as Ennis can be drawn out with the right approach and wording. Jack had the gift to do this. Each time he did'nt , he got robbed. Sometimes it takes one partner to "bring out " the other and v/v, give hope without assumptions . It shows that you care. With the secretive aspect to this affair, it would have been easy to to do this. Barring a couple slipups (Alma and Aguirre), no one knew about it anyway and they were'nt about to tell anyone , so why not simlpy talk honestly? Even when they were completly alone, on "fishing trips "we never saw them get any deeper than general surface talk. ( Jack's "I miss you so much ,I can hardly stand it") declaration was as close as it came , though it did say alot, ....UNTIL the last meeting when it all came spilling out. nearly 20 years of pent up anger ,resentment, and blame. Had they communicated more, things may have been alot different. IMHO

tpe · « **Reply #103 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 03:15 PM »

It must have been painful for Jack to realize that Ennis was not growing in the relationship.

In spite of his cautiousness and tentativness immediately after the FNIT, Ennis did make such a leap of faith in at least allowing himself to express his love for Jack in a manner that went against his fears and childhood traumas. How sad it is that this opening-up did not progress as Jack had hoped.

Still, we should appreciate that given his past, it must have been a tremendous leap for Ennis to even allow/accept Jack into his inner life and realize that he himself had feeling that could not be denied. That is still the value of the morning after: that Ennis woke up from a lifetime of sleep.

welshwitch · « **Reply #104 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 05:40 PM »

s, sure, true of the morning after FNIT, but later? I don't think Ennis ever moved on at all after this - in a way he can almost be said to have regressed. Like a lot of emotional people, Jack assumes Ennis is feeling the same emotions as he is - it takes a long time for him to realize he's quite wrong.

I'm sure that next morning Jack was full of trepidation, but also of underlying optimism - how wrong he was. Makes me start thinking about what each of them thought the other meant by the "one-shot thing" comment.

tpe · « **Reply #105 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 05:44 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jan 10, 2007, 05:40 PM

s, sure, true of the morning after FNIT, but later? I don't think Ennis ever moved on at all after this - in a way he can almost be said to have regressed. Like a lot of emotional people, Jack assumes Ennis is feeling the same emotions as he is - it takes a long time for him to realize he's quite wrong.

I'm sure that next morning Jack was full of trepidation, but also of underlying optimism - how wrong he was. Makes me start thinking about what each of them thought the other meant by the "one-shot thing" comment.

Precisely, the start was promising. And in certain instances (as in the reunion), it looked like the stars were watching over them. But I agree that Ennis stalled, or even regressed. This I think was part of the frustration. Ennis brooding the morning after FNIT is prophetic of what was to come.

tpe · « **Reply #106 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 07:46 PM »

aintfoolin · « **Reply #107 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 08:37 AM »

It is a good thing that Jack went up there like they he did, otherwise Ennis would have kept him waiting all day for what he needed to know. Maybe longer. It was his way of forcing Ennis to communicate his feelings if only in some small way. I think he knew Ennis was'nt going to pour out a fit of emotion. Far from it. That just was'nt Ennis. Although, there were moments of unspoken communication on Jack's part.,an example being Jack quietly letting Ennis speak first without a lot of pressure to come up with any defined reasoning for what had happened at that time, yet silently letting Ennis know he needed answers . I think we see the beginning of this Passive/submissive aspect of their affair. Ennis setting the pace of progress... From this moment on Ennis maintained a dominant control in the relationship. My 2 cents.

tpe · « **Reply #108 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:00 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 12, 2007, 08:37 AM

It is a good thing that Jack went up there like they he did, otherwise Ennis would have kept him waiting all day for what he needed to know. Maybe longer. It was his way of forcing Ennis to communicate his feelings if only in some small way. I think he knew Ennis was'nt going to pour out a fit of emotion. Far from it. That just was'nt Ennis. Although, there were moments of unspoken communication on Jack's part.,an example being Jack quietly letting Ennis speak first without a lot of pressure to come up with any defined reasoning for what had happened at that time, yet silently letting Ennis know he needed answers . I think we see the beginning of this Passive/submissive aspect of their affair. Ennis setting the pace of progress... From this moment on Ennis maintained a dominant control in the relationship. My 2 cents.

I perhaps would have been possible tha Ennis would not have come down to camp that night, no? Yes, Jack did good going up to where the sheep were pasturing. It sent a signal to Ennis that he (Jack) was not about to disappear.

BBM Fan · « **Reply #109 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:03 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 12, 2007, 09:00 AM

I perhaps would have been possible tha Ennis would not have come down to camp that night, no? Yes, Jack did good going up to where the sheep were pasturing. It sent a signal to Ennis that he (Jack) was not about to disappear.

I think you're right, tpe. Ennis was ashamed of what had occurred, & he probably would not have come down - even for more of that yummy Elk.

tpe · « **Reply #110 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:08 AM »

I think this was also what made Jack restless: he knew enough of Ennis that if he did not take the initiative to confront him, then all may be possibly lost. Well, I think Ennis wasn't just about to bail out on Jack, given the true depth of his emotions, but Jack's sudden appearance at least put an end to Ennis's brooding.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #111 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 08:24 PM »

Ennis also may have been thinking he had hurt Jack , adding to his guilt and shame.
It was not exactly one of his most tender moments in the FNIT , though I did'nt hear Jack complaining. Jack coming to him in the pasture reassured Ennis that he was also taking responsibility for how it happened.

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #112 on:** Jan 15, 2007, 01:02 PM »

I don't think Enis controilld the relationship. Jack controlled it. This is shown in the scene where they are walking to the bar before going up to BBM, after their interview with Aguirre. Jack leads, Ennis follows. Unfortunately you can't lead an unwilling horse to water and that;s what Ennis WAS in many ways, stuck in his own very narrow world of 1963 Wyoming [ I'm very glad modern cowpokes travel--they find their way around the coffeepot and see more then that handle]. Where Jack could lead, he did. Yes Ennis was the sexual top and Jack the submissive, yet in many many relationships it's the submissive one who wields ultimate control --and that's what I find here. Witnes { OT} the final argument. Jack controlled that.
The moring after i don't think Jack had a clue what to do or expect, after Ennis couldn't even look at him as he rode off, let alone speak with him.....

By the way I'm in Vienna, so if I don't answer right away that's why. Having fun on our honeymoon, meeting Wienerbrokies <G>!!!

aintfoolin · « **Reply #113 on:** Jan 15, 2007, 02:42 PM »

Viva! Brokeback 1. You are a true brokie, taking time out of your honeymoon to post! I agree that Jack led where he could,but as you said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him commit. Ennis was stubborn as a mule. Jack is the one who kept the relationship going but Ennis controlled how far it went in a sense. He also controlled the timing of the meetings and where " every once in a while out in the middle of nowhere" and Jack submits to this out of love and a fear of loosing Ennis completly imo. If Jack had weilded the control he did have a little more forcfully he probably would have gotten more of what he wanted ( but the morning after was not the time to push Ennis and Jack knew this. ) At some point towards the end,(last meeting) he must have realized that he needed to put his foot down.. When Ennis tried to change the Aug. meeting to Nov., Jack slammed the truck door in frustration and anger and finally let Ennis have it...with both barrels. This is akin to an angry judge slamming the hammer down to regain control of his courtroom. He'd finally had enough of Ennis's stalling , paranoia ,and excuses. He was in control here for sure but why did he wait so long? Sorry, I'm

tpe · « **Reply #114 on:** Jan 16, 2007, 10:17 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 12, 2007, 08:24 PM

Ennis also may have been thinking he had hurt Jack , adding to his guilt and shame.
It was not exactly one of his most tender moments in the FNIT , though I did'nt hear Jack complaining. Jack coming to him in the pasture reassured Ennis that he was also taking responsibility for how it happened.

Very well put, aintfoolin. Jack certainly didn't run away from it.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #115 on:** Jan 21, 2007, 12:27 PM »

I really don't think Ennis was afraid he hurt Jack. I think he was more suprise at his reaction to Jack's overture, this is someone who was a virgin. It stunned and I think scared him. So when they on the the mountainside the discussion took place, he wanted to set the rules, more for himself, than for Jack. Jack knew this, and followed his lead.

BBM Fan · « **Reply #116 on:** Jan 21, 2007, 04:36 PM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jan 21, 2007, 12:27 PM

I really don't think Ennis was afraid he hurt Jack. I think he was more suprise at his reaction to Jack's overture, this is someone who was a virgin. It stunned and I think scared him. So when they on the the mountainside the discussion took place, he wanted to set the rules, more for himself, than for Jack. Jack knew this, and followed his lead.

I think you're right, manhattangirl. I think Ennis was embarrassed too, at what he has done. Once Jack made the first move, Ennis took over.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #117 on:** Jan 22, 2007, 04:58 AM »

No doubt that Ennis felt fear ,guilt,shame and all the emotions humanly possible after this FNIT. But what rules? I think Ennis was more concerned about being thought of by Jack as being"queer" and he wanted to let Jack know that he was'nt that way. Being "queer" , in Ennis's mind was not good. ( his childhood teachings) This is what he feared the most, that somehow Jack would think him less of a "real man" because of what happened. To Ennis it was more about HOW it happened than what actually did happen. It became personal to him. Faced with Jack's suprising seduction, he could'nt resist and he was forced to admit to himself that he was not only attracted to Jack , but he'd acted on it and liked it..ALOT. He was reassured when Jack said " it's nobody"s business but ours" thus not being judgemental of him. Jack was telling Ennis that it does'nt really matter wether he was or not, he still wanted to be freinds ( and lovers) if possible, AND that he was'nt going to put their business in the street so to speak . By this time Jack was deeply in love with Ennis and did'nt want to loose him or scare him away. On the surface Ennis's "one shot" comment can be taken literally, but he adds "got going on here". "Going on" are the key words , suggesting a continuation of the affair. Jack "got it" and waited, hopeful that Ennis would'nt deny those feelings for him , but explore them further. Jack got the answers he wanted in SNIT.... Ennis's complete surrender to them and him.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #118 on:** Jan 22, 2007, 05:38 AM »

Great point, but I'm thinking it was because of that he was setting rules, a coping mechanism for him. Who was his fight against, not Jack. The fight was always against himself and his desires. This is a man who worked successfully to cut himself off from any meaningful relationship in his life. "No Reins" I think his was good at putting reins on himself.

tpe · « **Reply #119 on:** Jan 22, 2007, 08:56 AM »

Great exchange, friends. I love the idea of a coping mechanism. I think Jack was very aware that Ennis was struggling to cope with what happened between them, and that was what concerned Jack the most. You certainly see a look of extreme discomfort when we see Ennis ride away from Jack the morning after, and this certainly put a damper on Jack's spirits (as can be seen from the expression on his face.)

So yes, Jack realized that it was not a struggle between Ennis and himself. It was a struggle between Ennis and Ennis, and Jack felt helpless about it.