Topic: Spittle

[aintfoolin]

Ennis's punch caught Jack totally off guard and it looked really really painful to Jack. Maybe he was still in shock over it. His act of spitting in this scene maybe becuse of a cut inside the mouth or just from pure adrenaline flowing through him, in which causes the mouth to "water" more .Ennis did feel guilty and remembered that punch even four years later thinking of it as partially responsible for Jack's long absence.

[tpe]

Ennis's punch caught Jack totally off guard and it looked really really painful to Jack. Maybe he was still in shock over it. His act of spitting in this scene maybe becuse of a cut inside the mouth or just from pure adrenaline flowing through him, in which causes the mouth to "water" more .Ennis did feel guilty and remembered that punch even four years later thinking of it as partially responsible for Jack's long absence.

Very good point.  The bruise looked like a serious one.  And yes, I agree that Ennis was perhaps feeling guilty about the whole thing.

[greenfrog]

I had wondered if the fist pounding also suggested the action of masturbation -- something that was implied in the short story.  To have shown Jack stimulating himself would have been too much for some people.

On this note I would like to bring up something that I noticed last night.

Just before Jack calls Ennis into the tent during FNIT, he is lying down with his hands out of view. Judging from the angle of which his left arm is at, the most likely place where his hand is, would be in between his legs. If you watch closley he appears to be jerking his . . . . O.K. I spare you that visual, but he is definately doing something underneath the sheets.

[carbyville]

I had wondered if the fist pounding also suggested the action of masturbation -- something that was implied in the short story.  To have shown Jack stimulating himself would have been too much for some people.

On this note I would like to bring up something that I noticed last night.

Just before Jack calls Ennis into the tent during FNIT, he is lying down with his hands out of view. Judging from the angle of which his left arm is at, the most likely place where his hand is, would be in between his legs. If you watch closley he appears to be jerking his . . . . O.K. I spare you that visual, but he is definately doing something underneath the sheets.

Well, I'll definitely be watching FNIT later on. Interesting obversation, indeed. 

[ksxks]

I have loved reading the discussion of the last page regarding Jack's father and his spitting into the cup, and the entire thing of the dynamics between Jack and his father, and now the father's interaction with Ennis.  Patrior1's interesting argument notwithstanding, I also can find nothing but despicableness in this man...unless, perhaps, he is just a nasty old man, and his wanting Jack's ashes there really is a true wish of his, but he hasn't a clue how to be honest about something like that, has  never h ad a clue how to express anything "soft" in the slightest.

All of your arguments and propositions are most interesting and I cannot add anything at the moment, except to say that at the very least, his spitting like that, at the table, with "company" is just plain uncouth.

(OT also, but I'd loved to have rescued Mrs. Twist -- whisked her away from him and take her into town and show her a good time.  And I'd make her lounge on the couch with her feet up and serve her bon bons or something indulgent.  Take her shopping for clothes, get our hair done together.  Just hire somebody to work the ranch with the old man until he goes...)

kathy

[aintfoolin]

This is so sweet and thoughtful. Yeah, she deserved so much better than this. Being stuck out in the middle of nowhere with this  man would have driven me to do something rash. Sitting across the dinner table with a spit cup is not my idea of a fun marriage. Maybe running Jack off may have been the best idea he ever had. Jack never stopped trying to better himself as a person and had a concience. Never stopped trying. I think this is  what Jake G stated is what he felt most about this character.I see what he means. With Ennis by his side he could have surpassed his father's ideas of a good life many times over. He would have made sure that his mother was happy and safe.

[tpe]

I had wondered if the fist pounding also suggested the action of masturbation -- something that was implied in the short story.  To have shown Jack stimulating himself would have been too much for some people.

On this note I would like to bring up something that I noticed last night.

Just before Jack calls Ennis into the tent during FNIT, he is lying down with his hands out of view. Judging from the angle of which his left arm is at, the most likely place where his hand is, would be in between his legs. If you watch closley he appears to be jerking his . . . . O.K. I spare you that visual, but he is definately doing something underneath the sheets.

OOT: but was Jack doing this during the act itself? 

Greenfrog, the subject of autoeroticism in the FNIT is a topic all to itself.  Would you want to start a separate thread on this?  The subject matter must be delicately handled, to be sure.

[tpe]

I have loved reading the discussion of the last page regarding Jack's father and his spitting into the cup, and the entire thing of the dynamics between Jack and his father, and now the father's interaction with Ennis.  Patrior1's interesting argument notwithstanding, I also can find nothing but despicableness in this man...unless, perhaps, he is just a nasty old man, and his wanting Jack's ashes there really is a true wish of his, but he hasn't a clue how to be honest about something like that, has  never h ad a clue how to express anything "soft" in the slightest.

All of your arguments and propositions are most interesting and I cannot add anything at the moment, except to say that at the very least, his spitting like that, at the table, with "company" is just plain uncouth.

(OT also, but I'd loved to have rescued Mrs. Twist -- whisked her away from him and take her into town and show her a good time.  And I'd make her lounge on the couch with her feet up and serve her bon bons or something indulgent.  Take her shopping for clothes, get our hair done together.  Just hire somebody to work the ranch with the old man until he goes...)

kathy

Thanks kathy for sharing your opinion on this subject.

With the frequency of spitting in the film, I have wondered if such a parctice was not, in fact, more acceptable than we think.  We are, of course, conditioned to think otherwise regarding this practice, but perhaps it was more acceptable socially than we think...

Still, I did notice that when John Twist spat on the cup, there was a look of distaste in his eyes. 

 

[tpe]

This is so sweet and thoughtful. Yeah, she deserved so much better than this. Being stuck out in the middle of nowhere with this  man would have driven me to do something rash. Sitting across the dinner table with a spit cup is not my idea of a fun marriage. Maybe running Jack off may have been the best idea he ever had. Jack never stopped trying to better himself as a person and had a concience. Never stopped trying. I think this is  what Jake G stated is what he felt most about this character.I see what he means. With Ennis by his side he could have surpassed his father's ideas of a good life many times over. He would have made sure that his mother was happy and safe.

Ot is interesting me that we are now looking into the spitting with reference to Jack's mother, as opposed to Ennis.  It is, of course, a valid thing to consider.

It is interesting also to note that in the short story, the only reference to spit is in the FNIT.  Nonetheless, showing John Twist spitting did seem to be in keeping with the tone of the short story, particularly, the interaction of the 3 characters:


The old man sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. Ennis recognized in him a not uncommon type with the hard need to be the stud duck in the pond. He couldn’t see much of Jack in either one of them, took a breath.

“I feel awful bad about Jack. Can’t begin to say how bad I feel. I knew him a long time. I come by to tell you that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife says he wanted I’d be proud to.”

There was a silence. Ennis cleared his throat but said nothing more.

The old man said, “Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is. He thought he was too goddam special to be buried in the family plot.”

Jack’s mother ignored this, said, “He used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas, and help his daddy on the ranch for a week, fix the gates and mow and all. I kept his room like it was when he was a boy and I think he appreciated that. You are welcome to go up in his room if you want.”

 
Proulx -- Brokeback Mountain (1997)  Boldfacing mine.


Of particular interest to me is the phrase "angry, knowing expression."  This is precisely the look we see in John Twist's face when he spits into the cup.

[aintfoolin]

Yep, It was angry. and it was knowing too. And Ennis remained humble and true through all of this. I don't think Jack thought he  was too  "Godamn special " to be buried in the family plot. Sr. was wrong. Jack wanted his ashes spread on BBM because its where he was most happy. He returned home yearly to help the old man out with the chores. This shows what kind of man Jack really was. He could've easily written him off. But he did'nt. Through all the crap and put-downs, Jack still showed respect for him.

[tpe]

Had John Twist been oblivious to the significance of Brokeback Mountain, I would have said that perhaps his anger and the act of spitting can be taken to signify his disappointment in relation to his son's improbably dreaming. 

But I suspect that John Twist knew the significance of the Mountain in Jack's life.  This makes me view his anger and the act of spitting in relation to this knowledge.  Hence, I looked at the action as an expression of contempt.

[aintfoolin]

Ennis spitting after Jack telling him about Mexico, IMO is another example of contempt ,on Ennis's part for the thought of Jack 's adventures down there. He was totally pissed off. He also spit after the "punch before coming down off the mountain. By the way I don't know if it's a thread or not but will some one please explain the punch. I see no excuse yet for it. In the SS it says something about Ennis getting in the first punch before his brother got him? Maybe he was pissed about "loosing "the fight/wrestling bout. Jack was'nt too bad holding his own against Ennis, or maybe he was pissed at Aguirre for bringing them down so soon. But that was'nt Jack's fault.WTF?

[LuvJackNasty]

I checked the listing of topics and didn't see one dedicated to just the punch-though I'm sure it has been discussed within other threads. This one touches on it a little bit: Wrestling scenes
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1049.msg25375#msg25375

IMO Ennis doesn't know how to express himself and when they were wrestling it looked like he was almost choking Jack. I don't think any of that was malicious on Ennis's part- he had so many emotions bubbling inside of him and that was how they manifested themselves.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I hadn't noticed that in the SNIT scene.  Looks like I have another reason to pull out the dvd!

[ksxks]

On this note I would like to bring up something that I noticed last night.

Just before Jack calls Ennis into the tent during FNIT, he is lying down with his hands out of view. Judging from the angle of which his left arm is at, the most likely place where his hand is, would be in between his legs. If you watch closley he appears to be jerking his . . . . O.K. I spare you that visual, but he is definately doing something underneath the sheets.

OOT: but was Jack doing this during the act itself? 

Greenfrog, the subject of autoeroticism in the FNIT is a topic all to itself.  Would you want to start a separate thread on this?  The subject matter must be delicately handled, to be sure.

Delicately handled becuse of minors here?  I assume that's the reason, because we certainly could discuss openly otherwise, yes?

kathy

[ksxks]

Thanks kathy for sharing your opinion on this subject.

With the frequency of spitting in the film, I have wondered if such a parctice was not, in fact, more acceptable than we think.  We are, of course, conditioned to think otherwise regarding this practice, but perhaps it was more acceptable socially than we think...

Still, I did notice that when John Twist spat on the cup, there was a look of distaste in his eyes. 
 

Yes, you're right, about spitting being more socially acceptable in the past, at least in the world we were being shown.  I should know this very well, as I have presented this argument about their smoking.  But the timing of his doing this, what he said, and his face, as you said, Thomas -- I would say it was shown to us this way by the brilliant filmmakers for us to indeed get this perception of Mr. Twist having a distasteful attitude toward Jack, and also Ennis.

kathy

[ksxks]

I checked the listing of topics and didn't see one dedicated to just the punch-though I'm sure it has been discussed within other threads. This one touches on it a little bit: Wrestling scenes
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1049.msg25375#msg25375

IMO Ennis doesn't know how to express himself and when they were wrestling it looked like he was almost choking Jack. I don't think any of that was malicious on Ennis's part- he had so many emotions bubbling inside of him and that was how they manifested themselves.

LJN, I also recall discussing the wrestling/fight on the hillside at length.  There's not a Leaving Early thread?  But you said it perfectly in 25 words or less, how the wrestling turned into fighting for real, out of Ennis's frustrations.

kathy

[BBM Fan]

Great two cents, aintfoolin.  This is a lovely encapsulation of those moments in the tent, and how they were presented to us, and how they represented the characters for us to know them.

I can't swear to this -- may be a faulty memory -- but I'm pretty sure my "OMG" in that scene (shocked but not offended, as you said) consisted of putting my hand over my mouth, or however you describe that.  You know, the indrawn breath and the hand over the mouth or else I might have said OMG and other stuff out loud, like JCAlmighty oh boy god help me, etc. 

kathy


Being 100% honest, when Ennis spit on his hand and lubed himself up I smiled. My OMG moment was Jack pounding the ground with his fist.

Oh and here's one of two pictures..



Best I could do.

Jack pounding HIS fist on the ground?  Or Jack pounding Ennis' fist on the ground?  This was brought up in another thread & in the DVD - if you lighten it - it does appear that Jack grabs Ennis' right hand and pounds it on the ground.  Now that's hot!  Where Ennis' hand had been before that - I'll need to do further research.  Thoughts?

[aintfoolin]

Well, what I see is Ennis's arm on the inside with Jack holding it firmly at the wrist. I cannot see what's going on during the pounding, but my common sense tells me that Jack was pounding the ground with Ennis's fist as he used the other to hold himself up. Wether that hand had ....ahem... other uses? don't know ,can't tell Yes much more careful research is needed. What a chore.

[tpe]

Ennis spitting after Jack telling him about Mexico, IMO is another example of contempt ,on Ennis's part for the thought of Jack 's adventures down there. He was totally pissed off. He also spit after the "punch before coming down off the mountain. By the way I don't know if it's a thread or not but will some one please explain the punch. I see no excuse yet for it. In the SS it says something about Ennis getting in the first punch before his brother got him? Maybe he was pissed about "loosing "the fight/wrestling bout. Jack was'nt too bad holding his own against Ennis, or maybe he was pissed at Aguirre for bringing them down so soon. But that was'nt Jack's fault.WTF?

I think Ennis was just totally confused by the strength of his emotions. 

I don't recall a separate thread about the significance of the punch.  Would you like to start a new thread on this?  Do make a cursory check in the index of topics, to be sure, but I cannot recall a topic devoted specifically to this detail.

As for the spitting, I had assumed that he weas probably trying to spit out blood -- or the taste of it, perhaps.  But I like your suggestion that it may have been a gesture of contempt.

[tpe]

I checked the listing of topics and didn't see one dedicated to just the punch-though I'm sure it has been discussed within other threads. This one touches on it a little bit: Wrestling scenes
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1049.msg25375#msg25375

OK.

IMO Ennis doesn't know how to express himself and when they were wrestling it looked like he was almost choking Jack. I don't think any of that was malicious on Ennis's part- he had so many emotions bubbling inside of him and that was how they manifested themselves.

I think I mentioned somewhere that Ennis was anry with himself for allowing himself to fall in love with Jack.  Jack was just at the wrong place at the wrong time and some of Ennis's inner rage got pushed out to him, so to speak.

The spitting after could have been a gesture of satisfaction, no?  As if some of his anger was assuaged...

[tpe]

Delicately handled becuse of minors here?  I assume that's the reason, because we certainly could discuss openly otherwise, yes?

kathy

Yes.    However, I do think we can discuss a great deal without being too prudish about it. 

[tpe]

Yes, you're right, about spitting being more socially acceptable in the past, at least in the world we were being shown.  I should know this very well, as I have presented this argument about their smoking.  But the timing of his doing this, what he said, and his face, as you said, Thomas -- I would say it was shown to us this way by the brilliant filmmakers for us to indeed get this perception of Mr. Twist having a distasteful attitude toward Jack, and also Ennis.

kathy

I did look upon John Twist's act of spitting as an expression fo distaste for Jack's plans.  To spit before company may be considered rude in some circles, but I am sure it was more acceptable in this case.  Still, it was John Twist's look that convinced me that there was more to be read in his action.

[tpe]

Jack pounding HIS fist on the ground?  Or Jack pounding Ennis' fist on the ground?  This was brought up in another thread & in the DVD - if you lighten it - it does appear that Jack grabs Ennis' right hand and pounds it on the ground.  Now that's hot!  Where Ennis' hand had been before that - I'll need to do further research.  Thoughts?

Interesting.  Can someone confirm this?

[Asali]

Still, it was John Twist's look that convinced me that there was more to be read in his action.

It was the look and the tone of his voice.

[tpe]

Well, what I see is Ennis's arm on the inside with Jack holding it firmly at the wrist. I cannot see what's going on during the pounding, but my common sense tells me that Jack was pounding the ground with Ennis's fist as he used the other to hold himself up. Wether that hand had ....ahem... other uses? don't know ,can't tell Yes much more careful research is needed. What a chore.

In any event, I do suspect that the fist-pounding suggested the act of masturbation. 

Was it the hand that was lubricated with spittle?  It was Ennis's left hand, no?

[tpe]

It was the look and the tone of his voice.

Especially the look, no?  His eyes before and after he spat into the cup: to me, they expressed anger as well as contempt.

[Asali]

Especially the look, no?  His eyes before and after he spat into the cup: to me, they expressed anger as well as contempt.

Oh yes, very much so.

[carbyville]

Interesting.  Can someone confirm this?

I'll take a look and get some caps in a little bit.

[tpe]

I'll take a look and get some caps in a little bit.

Thanks, carbyville .