Author Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers  (Read 336004 times)

vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #150 on: Dec 10, 2008, 09:08 AM »
So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that infidelity ceased to become an issue with Ennis after Jack's death.  Am I correct?

To tie it in with the subject at hand, I would extend it by saying that Ennis blaming Jack for what became of him ALSO became immaterial. 

Sure, Tpe!

NOTHING mattered any more! Jack was gone, and I believe that only the things Ennis himself had missed to do in the past, became a huge burden in his heart.

Jack became an intangible memory in Ennis's heart that no Earthly mud can reach.  :\'(

vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #151 on: Dec 10, 2008, 09:09 AM »
It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever.  I think Ennis realized this too late. 

In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency?  Not that he did it consciously, mind you.  Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?

Well, maybe this is far-fetched.  Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...



Do you reffer to Jack's complacency here?  :s)

Offline tpe

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #152 on: Dec 10, 2008, 09:12 AM »
Do you reffer to Jack's complacency here?  :s)

No, I refer to Ennis's complacency -- of taking Jack and his love for granted.


vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #153 on: Dec 10, 2008, 10:31 AM »
No, I refer to Ennis's complacency -- of taking Jack and his love for granted.



S**t, that's hard!  ???

Well, I think not! But, the whole reaction and esspecially those Ennis's words ARE difficult to explain completely. I'll think about it! :s)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #154 on: Dec 10, 2008, 04:45 PM »
It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever.  I think Ennis realized this too late. 

In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency?  Not that he did it consciously, mind you.  Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?

Well, maybe this is far-fetched.  Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...



 It's defintly a possibilty tpe and I agree with both posts including smartsonia's line about Ennis drawing the line himself.

 What preceded the line is Ennis's response to Jack saying " I wish I knew how to quit you"". Ennis says " so why don't you then, why don't you just let me be?". It's amazing that Jack could back Ennis up against the wall, drive him to the edge of the cliff with mere words.  Felt himself having to sh-t  or get off the pot...

Ennis  had literally built his life around Jack and now he saw Jack discounting  him in a sense over his own sacrifices, but after all this time Jack felt  Ennis owed him more for his own. ,but  I think Ennis was feeling a little under-appreciated himself.  I feel Ennis felt that all he was capable of giving  was unsatisfactory to Jack.

Jack was giving him no wiggle room, he was either gonna have to make some kind of commitment to Jack or bolt, and Ennis was prepared to do niether. I do feel that at that moment Ennis felt himself under attack and Jack was speaking alot in past tense about what could've been and the thought of  Jack  slipping away from him was so scary. but Ennis was by no means an innocent victim. He was a more than willing participant in getting them to the place they were at.
 Imo, they were both dancing around the big purple gorilla in the room, the fact that they loved each other and nothing they felt , said, or did was gonna change anything about it.
 They both knew that the staus quo was  no longer acceptable. Something had to give, but who or what?

 And  as always, Ennis must remove himself from the tight corner he found himself in. Jack has just unloaded on him with both barrels... once more he has to distance himself, absorb  the stinging indictment of Jack's words, think, rationalize, and sort each aspect of the situation out, and the result this time was sending of a postcard to meet Jack at Pine Creek.  A decision had to be made, but time was'nt on his side this time. fate had made the decision for him. Perhaps had he known this was the last moments he'd have with Jack, he would have made things right. ..But how could he have known? So sad.MO
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline orangetruck

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #155 on: Dec 11, 2008, 02:49 AM »
It's defintly a possibilty tpe and I agree with both posts including smartsonia's line about Ennis drawing the line himself.

 What preceded the line is Ennis's response to Jack saying " I wish I knew how to quit you"". Ennis says " so why don't you then, why don't you just let me be?". It's amazing that Jack could back Ennis up against the wall, drive him to the edge of the cliff with mere words.  Felt himself having to sh-t  or get off the pot...

Ennis  had literally built his life around Jack and now he saw Jack discounting  him in a sense over his own sacrifices, but after all this time Jack felt  Ennis owed him more for his own. ,but  I think Ennis was feeling a little under-appreciated himself.  I feel Ennis felt that all he was capable of giving  was unsatisfactory to Jack.

Jack was giving him no wiggle room, he was either gonna have to make some kind of commitment to Jack or bolt, and Ennis was prepared to do niether. I do feel that at that moment Ennis felt himself under attack and Jack was speaking alot in past tense about what could've been and the thought of  Jack  slipping away from him was so scary. but Ennis was by no means an innocent victim. He was a more than willing participant in getting them to the place they were at.
 Imo, they were both dancing around the big purple gorilla in the room, the fact that they loved each other and nothing they felt , said, or did was gonna change anything about it.
 They both knew that the staus quo was  no longer acceptable. Something had to give, but who or what?

 And  as always, Ennis must remove himself from the tight corner he found himself in. Jack has just unloaded on him with both barrels... once more he has to distance himself, absorb  the stinging indictment of Jack's words, think, rationalize, and sort each aspect of the situation out, and the result this time was sending of a postcard to meet Jack at Pine Creek.  A decision had to be made, but time was'nt on his side this time. fate had made the decision for him. Perhaps had he known this was the last moments he'd have with Jack, he would have made things right. ..But how could he have known? So sad.MO

Very nicely said there, AF. A good question: How could he have known?

It's kind of mesmerizing to think of just how far back this fate had grounded itself in their relationship. For 20 years it was basically: How can we make this work? Of course if they'd have met the answer directly there wouldn't even be 20 shared years, right? Let me put it clearer. It's because of Jack. It's because only Ennis had his predetermined answer, only he saw Earl first hand. In a sense I find it a painful yet artful irony that Jack is the one that died -- Not that the story would have worked had Ennis.  :-\\
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #156 on: Dec 11, 2008, 03:22 AM »
Very nicely said there, AF. A good question: How could he have known?

It's kind of mesmerizing to think of just how far back this fate had grounded itself in their relationship. For 20 years it was basically: How can we make this work? Of course if they'd have met the answer directly there wouldn't even be 20 shared years, right? Let me put it clearer. It's because of Jack. It's because only Ennis had his predetermined answer, only he saw Earl first hand. In a sense I find it a painful yet artful irony that Jack is the one that died -- Not that the story would have worked had Ennis.  :-\\

OT, I just mentioned the same thing in one of my previous posts - that the fear Ennis had through all his life come in its worst shape - Jack's death!

And I always go back to AP's genius story. She just put there 2 ping-pong players, and perfectly decided which one will hit the ball and under what circumstances. No mistake! And each stroke hits us directly into the heart!  :\'(

They mirrored one another in every way. In this case, one's fear becomes other's destiny. Can not be more genius than that!

And more devastating! :\'(

Offline orangetruck

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #157 on: Dec 11, 2008, 04:04 AM »
OT, I just mentioned the same thing in one of my previous posts - that the fear Ennis had through all his life come in its worst shape - Jack's death!

And I always go back to AP's genius story. She just put there 2 ping-pong players, and perfectly decided which one will hit the ball and under what circumstances. No mistake! And each stroke hits us directly into the heart!  :\'(

They mirrored one another in every way. In this case, one's fear becomes other's destiny. Can not be more genius than that!

And more devastating! :\'(

I totally agree, loreen  ^f^

Also what is crystal clear to me is: Both of their greatest fear was of the other's death.

It is interesting that I would even magnify myself this way, but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth at the end when Ennis' character is finally brought to a head, as of the 2 stained shirts. The double stained heart. It's not easy to watch Ennis button up his own heart. It's like someone saw Jack and Ennis way up in the clouds, and shot an arrow and pierced them together; they break through the window; they land in a closet; and that's where they grow old and die -- they certainly couldn't on Brokeback Mountain.

That said, I think Ennis opens up the closet and goes back as means of survival. If only to keep Jack happy. Sounds like the Ennis I know.
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #158 on: Dec 11, 2008, 04:19 AM »
I totally agree, loreen  ^f^

Also what is crystal clear to me is: Both of their greatest fear was of the other's death.

It is interesting that I would even magnify myself this way, but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth at the end when Ennis' character is finally brought to a head, as of the 2 stained shirts. The double stained heart. It's not easy to watch Ennis button up his own heart. It's like someone saw Jack and Ennis way up in the clouds, and shot an arrow and pierced them together; they break through the window; they land in a closet; and that's where they grow old and die -- they certainly couldn't on Brokeback Mountain.

That said, I think Ennis opens up the closet and goes back as means of survival. If only to keep Jack happy. Sounds like the Ennis I know.

Well, :s) I gave it the best shot and I think I got your post! Not easy for me, as your posts are more like a metaphors, and my English is more like inadequate. :)

One question:what do you mean by

"but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth "  ??? This I can't quite understand.

With "...the 2 stained shirts. The double stained heart. It's not easy to watch Ennis button up his own heart." I agree. I never thought of those shirts as of their hearts, but it's so true. So simple symbolism but at the same time so deep.

Uh, this made me sad again....

 :\'(

Offline orangetruck

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #159 on: Dec 11, 2008, 04:34 AM »


One question:what do you mean by

"but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth "  ??? This I can't quite understand.




What I mean: With Brokeback Mountain I immediately recognized Jack's fear of (Ennis' death) losing Ennis, but it took longer for me to recognize the same in Ennis. I think they feared the same thing ultimately but had very different understandings of it. I may even suggest Jack's perception is extroverted, whereas Ennis' is introverted. A key to a lock in a sense.

And of course I think it's clear at the end that Ennis had always been (too) focused on (Jack's) death. But I feel Jack acted on the fear, to nearly cancel it out, bringing Ennis to the opposite end to fear -- a place of love.
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #160 on: Dec 11, 2008, 06:31 AM »
What I mean: With Brokeback Mountain I immediately recognized Jack's fear of (Ennis' death) losing Ennis, but it took longer for me to recognize the same in Ennis. I think they feared the same thing ultimately but had very different understandings of it. I may even suggest Jack's perception is extroverted, whereas Ennis' is introverted. A key to a lock in a sense.

And of course I think it's clear at the end that Ennis had always been (too) focused on (Jack's) death. But I feel Jack acted on the fear, to nearly cancel it out, bringing Ennis to the opposite end to fear -- a place of love.

Well, I definitely didn't go that deep. In fact, at this point, and this level of my understanding of the movie, which is always changing of course, I see no such a thing.

In Ennis I see an irrationally magnified fear which was growing together with him since 9, and together with his wish to be with Jack. Unfortunately that fear grew bigger than his wish. Finally his fear becomes the truth in a most devastating way - of losing someone whom he (at last realized) loved more then himself.

Did Jack feel fear? I don't know. He was too occupied with his needs, his loving and affectionate nature. If he ever had that fear, it was hidden somewhere deep, covered with his love for Ennis. I can say that he understood Ennis's fear coming from childhood trauma as he himself had more than one (childhood trauma). Their misfortune childhood was one of the main reasons why they match together so well, and escaping to / from that childhood meant a lot for both. So, there Jack found an excuse for Ennis and accepted his fear.

Jack's fears? Well, I'm not so sure, but maybe it'll come to me....

 :t)  :cr)

Offline orangetruck

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #161 on: Dec 11, 2008, 06:57 AM »
Well, I definitely didn't go that deep. In fact, at this point, and this level of my understanding of the movie, which is always changing of course, I see no such a thing.

In Ennis I see an irrationally magnified fear which was growing together with him since 9, and together with his wish to be with Jack. Unfortunately that fear grew bigger than his wish. Finally his fear becomes the truth in a most devastating way - of losing someone whom he (at last realized) loved more then himself.

Did Jack feel fear? I don't know. He was too occupied with his needs, his loving and affectionate nature. If he ever had that fear, it was hidden somewhere deep, covered with his love for Ennis. I can say that he understood Ennis's fear coming from childhood trauma as he himself had more than one (childhood trauma). Their misfortune childhood was one of the main reasons why they match together so well, and escaping to / from that childhood meant a lot for both. So, there Jack found an excuse for Ennis and accepted his fear.

Jack's fears? Well, I'm not so sure, but maybe it'll come to me....

 :t)  :cr)

Maybe  ;)

 :cr)
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Offline smartestsonia

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #162 on: Dec 11, 2008, 07:16 AM »
It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever.  I think Ennis realized this too late. 

In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency?  Not that he did it consciously, mind you.  Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?

Well, maybe this is far-fetched.  Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...


I think it was subconscious...Ennis never wanted to hurt Jack but he himself was shattered in FC and he became too vulnerable...Out of frustration and so much regret and loss, Ennis felt that he is so today because of his love...I am not talking about balming but about the fact that love was a force of nature that he dint have a control over.

Offline tpe

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #163 on: Dec 11, 2008, 08:45 AM »
Sure, Tpe!

NOTHING mattered any more! Jack was gone, and I believe that only the things Ennis himself had missed to do in the past, became a huge burden in his heart.

Jack became an intangible memory in Ennis's heart that no Earthly mud can reach.  :\'(

So in this context, we can view (with hindsight) the statement "It's because of you..." as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy -- in the sense that it was really Jack who defined the later Ennis, at least by Jack's death...


Offline tpe

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #164 on: Dec 11, 2008, 08:53 AM »
It's defintly a possibilty tpe and I agree with both posts including smartsonia's line about Ennis drawing the line himself.

 What preceded the line is Ennis's response to Jack saying " I wish I knew how to quit you"". Ennis says " so why don't you then, why don't you just let me be?". It's amazing that Jack could back Ennis up against the wall, drive him to the edge of the cliff with mere words.  Felt himself having to sh-t  or get off the pot...

Ennis  had literally built his life around Jack and now he saw Jack discounting  him in a sense over his own sacrifices, but after all this time Jack felt  Ennis owed him more for his own. ,but  I think Ennis was feeling a little under-appreciated himself.  I feel Ennis felt that all he was capable of giving  was unsatisfactory to Jack.

Jack was giving him no wiggle room, he was either gonna have to make some kind of commitment to Jack or bolt, and Ennis was prepared to do niether. I do feel that at that moment Ennis felt himself under attack and Jack was speaking alot in past tense about what could've been and the thought of  Jack  slipping away from him was so scary. but Ennis was by no means an innocent victim. He was a more than willing participant in getting them to the place they were at.
 Imo, they were both dancing around the big purple gorilla in the room, the fact that they loved each other and nothing they felt , said, or did was gonna change anything about it.
 They both knew that the staus quo was  no longer acceptable. Something had to give, but who or what?

 And  as always, Ennis must remove himself from the tight corner he found himself in. Jack has just unloaded on him with both barrels... once more he has to distance himself, absorb  the stinging indictment of Jack's words, think, rationalize, and sort each aspect of the situation out, and the result this time was sending of a postcard to meet Jack at Pine Creek.  A decision had to be made, but time was'nt on his side this time. fate had made the decision for him. Perhaps had he known this was the last moments he'd have with Jack, he would have made things right. ..But how could he have known? So sad.MO

Beautiful post, aintfoolin!  I think this summarizes so many aspects of the way I feel about this scene.  And the image that comes to mind here is a reluctant Ennis pushed to a corner where he can neither retreat or advance.  Essentially, Jack was forcing him to make a choice, and his blaming Jack for making him what he is is ironic, in this context.  Was Jack responsible for Ennis's indecision?  Perhaps he was by simply acquiescing to Ennis on the crucial points, but this is hardly fair to Jack, especially know when he simply won't accept further ambiguity from Ennis.




Offline tpe

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #165 on: Dec 11, 2008, 08:56 AM »
I think it was subconscious...Ennis never wanted to hurt Jack but he himself was shattered in FC and he became too vulnerable...Out of frustration and so much regret and loss, Ennis felt that he is so today because of his love...I am not talking about balming but about the fact that love was a force of nature that he dint have a control over.

I think so too, although I think the comment about Mexico was deliberate.  Ennis was stung by Jack's reminder of his rejection of the sweet life, and wanted to lash out...


vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #166 on: Dec 12, 2008, 03:05 AM »
Maybe  ;)

 :cr)

OK OT,

I gave up! What were the symptoms of Jack's fear? Give me a hint!  :-\\

vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #167 on: Dec 12, 2008, 03:08 AM »
So in this context, we can view (with hindsight) the statement "It's because of you..." as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy -- in the sense that it was really Jack who defined the later Ennis, at least by Jack's death...



Yes Tpe ^f^,

even I could say that you're aiming too far with this, but can not say anything against it -  because it's the true!

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #168 on: Dec 12, 2008, 05:29 AM »
I think so too, although I think the comment about Mexico was deliberate.  Ennis was stung by Jack's reminder of his rejection of the sweet life, and wanted to lash out...


I agree that the thought of Jack's reminder and the fact that he went to Mexico was enough to push Ennis over the edge and he just could not be composed anymore but had to show to Jack as to how miserable he has become...

vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #169 on: Dec 12, 2008, 06:48 AM »
No, I refer to Ennis's complacency -- of taking Jack and his love for granted.


I owe you this one, but still haven't yes/no answer.

I was thinking more like: Ennis's love was all over him, he was aware that love and uncontrollable feelings for Jack all his life. I believe that this fact and his cognition of those feelings was the blame he put on Jack. In fact Ennis wasn't really blaming Jack, maybe in his way he was saying:

Jack, I love you all my life, and that love has destroyed me. I was always afraid that someone will figure out what you mean to me and how much I desperately need you. I kept nothing for myself, no job, no family, no friends... I am nothing, I am nowhere because of you. This is my lifetime sacrifice, and now you're not satisfied with it. I just CAN'T give more than that, but for you it's not enough. You need others?... Do you love those others the same you love me, do you belong to them the same you belong to me? I can't stand it any more, Jack.... my love!  :\'(

Well, that's how I see his words. Of course they are a part of much bigger picture where Jack also had something to say, but I still keep that anxious scene as the one where they expressed love... in the best way they could!  $)

Offline tpe

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #170 on: Dec 12, 2008, 08:35 AM »
Yes Tpe ^f^,

even I could say that you're aiming too far with this, but can not say anything against it -  because it's the true!

I agree that this is a bit aiming too far, but I can't help thinking about the irony of it all.  :)


Offline tpe

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #171 on: Dec 12, 2008, 08:37 AM »
I agree that the thought of Jack's reminder and the fact that he went to Mexico was enough to push Ennis over the edge and he just could not be composed anymore but had to show to Jack as to how miserable he has become...

In many ways, this scene and the accompanying "It's because of you..." marks the nadir of Ennis in the story up till then.  There was no dignity, and there was a great deal of misery.


Offline tpe

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #172 on: Dec 12, 2008, 08:40 AM »
I owe you this one, but still haven't yes/no answer.

I was thinking more like: Ennis's love was all over him, he was aware that love and uncontrollable feelings for Jack all his life. I believe that this fact and his cognition of those feelings was the blame he put on Jack. In fact Ennis wasn't really blaming Jack, maybe in his way he was saying:

Jack, I love you all my life, and that love has destroyed me. I was always afraid that someone will figure out what you mean to me and how much I desperately need you. I kept nothing for myself, no job, no family, no friends... I am nothing, I am nowhere because of you. This is my lifetime sacrifice, and now you're not satisfied with it. I just CAN'T give more than that, but for you it's not enough. You need others?... Do you love those others the same you love me, do you belong to them the same you belong to me? I can't stand it any more, Jack.... my love!  :\'(

Well, that's how I see his words. Of course they are a part of much bigger picture where Jack also had something to say, but I still keep that anxious scene as the one where they expressed love... in the best way they could!  $)

But this is exactly my point:  Ennis knew full well that THAT love didn't destroy him; it made him a better person, and that he wasn't being totally honest with himself here.  Ennis did all of this not just for Jack's sake but also for his own happiness.  He knew it from the start, but was unwilling to seize it with both hands until it was too late.


vedrana

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #173 on: Dec 12, 2008, 02:34 PM »
But this is exactly my point:  Ennis knew full well that THAT love didn't destroy him; it made him a better person, and that he wasn't being totally honest with himself here.  Ennis did all of this not just for Jack's sake but also for his own happiness.  He knew it from the start, but was unwilling to seize it with both hands until it was too late.



I am not so sure about Ennis's knowledge of his own happiness at this point. I'm even less sure that Ennis was a better person because of Jack's love because he destroyed all his other relationships, he lived a lonely and sad life. All that for a few times a year of sunlight that was heating his soul - Jack's love. Ennis never opened his heart enough to receive this pure love energy. In that way he was loosing the both sides - his life in Riverton and "sweet life" with Jack.

I believe that his words were honest at the time. What he had just heard was the worst thing that he could've imagine - Jack wasn't cherishing their love in the same way he was. Jack was fooling around with other men. Moreover, Jack expressed his extreme dissatisfaction with the rhythm of their relationship. That was devastating, and he just explode, in a way talking more to himself than to Jack.... IMO :s)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #174 on: Dec 12, 2008, 03:32 PM »
And it's curious to see how Ennis was almost joking when he knew that Jack had a relationship with a woman; but,on the contrary,he reacted as a jeaulous lover when the "rival" was another man,and even,when he realised that there has been many others one-night men.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
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Offline smartestsonia

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #175 on: Dec 12, 2008, 03:49 PM »
And it's curious to see how Ennis was almost joking when he knew that Jack had a relationship with a woman; but,on the contrary,he reacted as a jeaulous lover when the "rival" was another man,and even,when he realised that there has been many others one-night men.
Alicia, am so glad to read your posts dear..so glad u r here  :)

I agree with ya...Both of them have been married once and they had a 4 year reunion inspite of that..they knew that their wives could not replace the love they had for ecah other...I feel Ennis could never bear the thought that Jack was with other men as what they shared was something so very special that Ennis could never stand Jack sharing that with another man...

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #176 on: Dec 12, 2008, 04:13 PM »
Alicia, am so glad to read your posts dear..so glad u r here  :)

I agree with ya...Both of them have been married once and they had a 4 year reunion inspite of that..they knew that their wives could not replace the love they had for ecah other...I feel Ennis could never bear the thought that Jack was with other men as what they shared was something so very special that Ennis could never stand Jack sharing that with another man...

Good point! Ennis's and Jack's sensation of their love was completely different.

For Ennis it was a top military secret, and the secrecy of their love made that love even more special and exciting - for Ennis it was a retreat from the sadness and senseless of his Riverton life, it  was a shiny pearl hidden in the shellfish and he never wanted to share with anyone. Not only because of fear, but because he didn't want to contaminate the purity of their mutual emotions.

Jack was a different story - he NEEDED love by all means. Other men was just a poor replacement for Ennis, but even so he needed that.

But let me reverse the situation - how would Jack react if he found out that Ennis had other lover(s)?  :s)

Would he think of it as normal? Or he'd be jealous too? And hurt? Or would feel relieved for two of them would be even in that case ??

:s)

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #177 on: Dec 12, 2008, 04:28 PM »
Good point! Ennis's and Jack's sensation of their love was completely different.

For Ennis it was a top military secret, and the secrecy of their love made that love even more special and exciting - for Ennis it was a retreat from the sadness and senseless of his Riverton life, it  was a shiny pearl hidden in the shellfish and he never wanted to share with anyone. Not only because of fear, but because he didn't want to contaminate the purity of their mutual emotions.

Jack was a different story - he NEEDED love by all means. Other men was just a poor replacement for Ennis, but even so he needed that.

But let me reverse the situation - how would Jack react if he found out that Ennis had other lover(s)?  :s)

Would he think of it as normal? Or he'd be jealous too? And hurt? Or would feel relieved for two of them would be even in that case ??

:s)
Thankyou Loreen  ^f^
I agree with what u have said...

If we reverse the situation and Jack finds out that Ennnis has been sleeping with other men he would definitely be hurt and jealous..It's the same for Jack in the sense that would not want to share Ennis with any other man..Even though he was sleeping with other men, he was not proud of it..As u said it was a poor replacement..None of that could fulfill his emotional need and need for love because his love was Ennis...Both of them would suffer by the thought that there is another man in the picture because both loved each other so much and dint wana lose that...

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #178 on: Dec 12, 2008, 08:41 PM »
 I completely agee with this smsartsonia, omg, Ennis sleeping with other men while  denying Jack would totally devastate Jack...but Jack did'nt  fear, because  this would never happen. not only would'nt he risk  exposure of screcy, he strongly condidered Jack his partner...lil darlin, suggesting a protective element involved in his  love and feelings for Jack.It was something Ennis considered unicley theirs. Jack and him , him and Jack against the world.
Beautiful post, aintfoolin!  I think this summarizes so many aspects of the way I feel about this scene.  And the image that comes to mind here is a reluctant Ennis pushed to a corner where he can neither retreat or advance.  Essentially, Jack was forcing him to make a choice, and his blaming Jack for making him what he is is ironic, in this context.  Was Jack responsible for Ennis's indecision?  Perhaps he was by simply acquiescing to Ennis on the crucial points, but this is hardly fair to Jack, especially know when he simply won't accept further ambiguity from Ennis.





Did Ennis feel Jack was respsonsible for his indecision?
It does seem as though Ennis is blaming Jack for something, but what really?  A part of him seems to be saying he's "nuthin" and "nowhere" because of Jack, but on the other hand, what's  he really saying?  Jack was'nt meetin out there in the woods by himself. Ennis did whatever he had to do to be there with him. Still  in denial, he was torn between guilt and fear and there's no easy way out of that for em. Stuck between the truth and the lie. He knew he was reponsible  ( for the most part) for Jack's hurt and frustration,  , and the fact that Jack had resorted to Mexico, he just could'nt stand for Jack to say it out loud, to paint his  sad  part of the picture , the summation of their 20 yrs together like he did.  yet felt himself powerless to stop it. he coulld'nt  really blame Jack, without seeing his own faults .. So, it does'nt matter what he says , he could never let go, imo, he loved Jack deeply,  his  hurt filled tears  over the thought of loosing him were evidence of it. My take.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline atalley

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Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #179 on: Dec 13, 2008, 09:00 PM »






I owe you this one, but still haven't yes/no answer.

I was thinking more like: Ennis's love was all over him, he was aware that love and uncontrollable feelings for Jack all his life. I believe that this fact and his cognition of those feelings was the blame he put on Jack. In fact Ennis wasn't really blaming Jack, maybe in his way he was saying:

Jack, I love you all my life, and that love has destroyed me. I was always afraid that someone will figure out what you mean to me and how much I desperately need you. I kept nothing for myself, no job, no family, no friends... I am nothing, I am nowhere because of you. This is my lifetime sacrifice, and now you're not satisfied with it. I just CAN'T give more than that, but for you it's not enough. You need others?... Do you love those others the same you love me, do you belong to them the same you belong to me? I can't stand it any more, Jack.... my love!  :\'(

Well, that's how I see his words. Of course they are a part of much bigger picture where Jack also had something to say, but I still keep that anxious scene as the one where they expressed love... in the best way they could!  $)

Wonderful post!