Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[tpe]

   


                       - can't remember this scene, man! i have to like rent or get this movie and watch it again. 

                         i recall delmar, the poor dude, was like a ticking bomb, like all repressed and depressed.

By all means watch it again -- if only to see this wonderful scene and the accompanying Dozy Embrace!

[Alexa]

In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The agressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.

That was what I think, too. He wants to stay with Jack, but he can´t :-(

[holyfool]

         - i don't get it,  why cowboy delmar is blaming senor twist for being the way he is???. maybe the poor dude needed some escape goat  and

           the only one he thought to blame was twister.

           I think cowboy delmar was  just all insecure  and paranoid

          p.s. i really need to take some broke back ennisjack.com seminars to keep up with all the terminology  from ya all. 

[tpe]

Well, it was in part an expression of deep frustration and in part a confession of how central Jack's love was to him.  Like what others have said here, it was both a complaint and a cry for help.  It is a pendant to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" -- which also has two meanings.

 

[traveller]

I know I should be "angry" with Ennis for his pasivity but I can't because I understand him too much. What I can't really accept is why Jack did let him go:-((( Why ?

[atalley]

I think Jack's hug is a kind of answer to the DE.  Yes, I love how he responded this way, in spite of his deep frustration and anger.  It's an indicator of how much he loved Ennis. 

Did Jack accept what Ennis said?  I think rather than seeing it as Ennis blaming him (jack) for his failures, Jack understood it as Ennis confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.

I especially agree w/ the fact that Jack understood that Ennis was confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.

[atalley]

         - i don't get it,  why cowboy delmar is blaming senor twist for being the way he is???. maybe the poor dude needed some escape goat  and

           the only one he thought to blame was twister.

           I think cowboy delmar was  just all insecure  and paranoid

          p.s. i really need to take some broke back ennisjack.com seminars to keep up with all the terminology  from ya all. 

I don't think that he was blaming Jack in quite the way you're thinking.  I think that this was his way of saying that everything he had done in his life (jobs, moves, etc.) were done so that he could be w/ Jack for the few times a yr. that they would be on BB together.  In his own way, he was declaring his love for Jack.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.   

[vedrana]

I know I should be "angry" with Ennis for his pasivity but I can't because I understand him too much. What I can't really accept is why Jack did let him go:-((( Why ?

I don't really believe that it was Jack who could make this decision. Ennis was too stubborn and Jack couldn't do a thing there. He just had to let him go...

[vedrana]

Well, it was in part an expression of deep frustration and in part a confession of how central Jack's love was to him.  Like what others have said here, it was both a complaint and a cry for help.  It is a pendant to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" -- which also has two meanings.

It is in fact as we said before - in their own way they both admit loving each other. Both fighting the pain that forbidden relationship brought to them, but both saying that they love each other enough to ruin the other parts of their lives.

[vedrana]

I don't think that he was blaming Jack in quite the way you're thinking.  I think that this was his way of saying that everything he had done in his life (jobs, moves, etc.) were done so that he could be w/ Jack for the few times a yr. that they would be on BB together.  In his own way, he was declaring his love for Jack.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.   

You're right about the meaning of Ennis's words, Atalley.

It is just one thing - and it is very painful to me - after 1963. they never went to Brokeback again... they've been to other places, many of them, but never to Brokeback... This is very symbolic and tells us that they never had that freedom like in 1963. on BBM.  :\'(

[tpe]

I know I should be "angry" with Ennis for his pasivity but I can't because I understand him too much. What I can't really accept is why Jack did let him go:-((( Why ?

If you understand Ennis, you must certainly also understand Jack. 

Perhaps you know the old saying: to let someone you love go is to set him free.  IMO, Jack clearly felt that as far as the last Confrontation went, the relationship was torturing Ennis.  He inadvertently said as much.  Could we blame him for what he tried to do, after he saw what this did to Ennis?

And of course, letting someone go doesn't mean that you don't love him anymore.  In many many cases, you let the person go because you love that person too much.

[tpe]

I especially agree w/ the fact that Jack understood that Ennis was confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.

And I think it was this confession that turned the tide on Jack's resentment.

[tpe]

I don't really believe that it was Jack who could make this decision. Ennis was too stubborn and Jack couldn't do a thing there. He just had to let him go...

This is also quite true.  For most of the 20 years that the relationship languished, it was Ennis who held the keys, and not Jack. 

Also, if the person you loved "blamed" you for what he was or had become, would you not take pause and wonder whether the other person wanting out?

[myprivatejack]

You're right about the meaning of Ennis's words, Atalley.

It is just one thing - and it is very painful to me - after 1963. they never went to Brokeback again... they've been to other places, many of them, but never to Brokeback... This is very symbolic and tells us that they never had that freedom like in 1963. on BBM.  :\'(

Yes,I also believe you're right about this meaning,Anita;I said in a former post that it was a love's declaration "Ennis style".
And you are right too,Loreen about the symbolism of they never returning to BBM-it should be posted in "Double meanings" thread-;all the other mountains and places they were in during these years were a poor substitute of BBM because they never had the same freedom they had there.The mountain,then,is a symbolism in itself of their own world against the rest of the society.

[atalley]

In the movie, it looks to me like they did go back to BB many times.  The SS is different, as it specifies that they did not go back.

[babytammy7]

In the movie, it looks to me like they did go back to BB many times.  The SS is different, as it specifies that they did not go back.

I don't think so, babe.  You can see different mountains and vistas and landscapes and no one looks like Brokeback. That mountain is very different from others because of its shape and we don't see it again in the film after the summer of 63. BBM was Jack's favorite place because of what he lived there when he was 19. Everything was perfect there and then, the time he was really happy. In some fishing trips Jack was happy, especially in the earlier years after the reunion, but in other trips Jack and Ennis had arguments and moments of misery when Ennis shot Jack’s plane out of the sky. Those fishing trips with Ennis were for Jack a constant reminder of what he could never have. That’s why I think he didn’t really like the Tetons or the Big Horns even if he spent years going there with Ennis. Those places were not special for Jack, because, yeah, Jack was happy when he was there with Ennis, but also left every time with a broken heart.
Brokeback was another thing....It was where Jack found love when they both were free and young and he had lots of beautiful dreams. If our boys had spent all those years of fishing trips going to BBM, I don’t think that Jack had still thought that it was his favorite place, because it’d be an image of their loving feelings but also of their fears, doubts, lies, shame and what Jack hated the most: that they had to hide like if their love was a crime.
I believe that they never went back to BBM. Even in the trailer you can read the line “there are places we can never return”. And I understand why they never went to BBM again. They didn’t want to stain the memory of something that was precious and perfect and the most unique metaphor of the paradise.

Just my opinion, babe. 

[vedrana]

I don't think so, babe.  You can see different mountains and vistas and landscapes and no one looks like Brokeback. That mountain is very different from others because of its shape and we don't see it again in the film after the summer of 63. BBM was Jack's favorite place because of what he lived there when he was 19. Everything was perfect there and then, the time he was really happy. In some fishing trips Jack was happy, especially in the earlier years after the reunion, but in other trips Jack and Ennis had arguments and moments of misery when Ennis shot Jack’s plane out of the sky. Those fishing trips with Ennis were for Jack a constant reminder of what he could never have. That’s why I think he didn’t really like the Tetons or the Big Horns even if he spent years going there with Ennis. Those places were not special for Jack, because, yeah, Jack was happy when he was there with Ennis, but also left every time with a broken heart.
Brokeback was another thing....It was where Jack found love when they both were free and young and he had lots of beautiful dreams. If our boys had spent all those years of fishing trips going to BBM, I don’t think that Jack had still thought that it was his favorite place, because it’d be an image of their loving feelings but also of their fears, doubts, lies, shame and what Jack hated the most: that they had to hide like if their love was a crime.
I believe that they never went back to BBM. Even in the trailer you can read the line “there are places we can never return”. And I understand why they never went to BBM again. They didn’t want to stain the memory of something that was precious and perfect and the most unique metaphor of the paradise.

Just my opinion, babe. 

I also think so BT! And I love the bold part even it is hurtful... but true!  :\'( :\'(

Now, I am thinking... maybe they were also afraid to go to Brokeback, to face all they had and could have, had they been braver...

[tpe]

The movie doesn't explicitly say that they went back to BBM, although I know that many viewers assumed that many of the scenes up in the mountains took place on BBM.  But this is not explicitly supported by the screenplay itself, which indicates that they are simply up in the mountains, and not specifically BBM.

[vedrana]

And I think it was this confession that turned the tide on Jack's resentment.

That and Ennis's break down. :\'(

[vedrana]

This is also quite true.  For most of the 20 years that the relationship languished, it was Ennis who held the keys, and not Jack. 

Also, if the person you loved "blamed" you for what he was or had become, would you not take pause and wonder whether the other person wanting out?

IMO the most important reason was Ennis's state of mind - he was shattered. Jack knew that and I believe that he knew that Ennis didn't want the way out of the relationship, but the way out of that unsatisfying situation.

They were happy only when together, but to be together they ruined all the other things in their lives and this few precious moments were in a way too expensive for them. During so many years that became a big burden and they need to resolve situation. The first step was to be alone and think it over. So Ennis left and Jack let him go.

[traveller]

I don't really believe that it was Jack who could make this decision. Ennis was too stubborn and Jack couldn't do a thing there. He just had to let him go...

If you understand Ennis, you must certainly also understand Jack. 

Perhaps you know the old saying: to let someone you love go is to set him free.  IMO, Jack clearly felt that as far as the last Confrontation went, the relationship was torturing Ennis.  He inadvertently said as much.  Could we blame him for what he tried to do, after he saw what this did to Ennis?

And of course, letting someone go doesn't mean that you don't love him anymore.  In many many cases, you let the person go because you love that person too much.

Thank you for sharing your opinions. I take them with me to my reality for deep consideration. They relate to one of the most motional apsects of the whole BBM story, still so painful for me.

[smartestsonia]

IMO the most important reason was Ennis's state of mind - he was shattered. Jack knew that and I believe that he knew that Ennis didn't want the way out of the relationship, but the way out of that unsatisfying situation.

They were happy only when together, but to be together they ruined all the other things in their lives and this few precious moments were in a way too expensive for them. During so many years that became a big burden and they need to resolve situation. The first step was to be alone and think it over. So Ennis left and Jack let him go.

Very well said..I would aso like to add that Ennis was so submissive by nature and a person he ...never wanted to express all that was in his heart.He always bottled up his feelings...But in the FC, when he found out that Jack was with other men , his bottled up feelings came to an exhausion point and he exploded his feelings...He showed Jack how vulnerable he had become...He was conscious about that too, so wanted to stay by himself for sometime, to just figure out as to what happened and what needs to be done..I feel that he came to terms with it and thus wanted to meet Jack but it is too late now..Thats the hugest tragedy of their lives...   :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[tpe]

IMO the most important reason was Ennis's state of mind - he was shattered. Jack knew that and I believe that he knew that Ennis didn't want the way out of the relationship, but the way out of that unsatisfying situation.

They were happy only when together, but to be together they ruined all the other things in their lives and this few precious moments were in a way too expensive for them. During so many years that became a big burden and they need to resolve situation. The first step was to be alone and think it over. So Ennis left and Jack let him go.

Thank you for sharing your opinions. I take them with me to my reality for deep consideration. They relate to one of the most motional apsects of the whole BBM story, still so painful for me.

Thanks also. 

You know, the root of the problem that was exposed by this scene in the Last Confrontation is the lack of communication between them when it comes to expectations and desires.  Had this confrontation happened sooner, perhaps it would have made all the difference.

[smartestsonia]

Thanks also. 

You know, the root of the problem that was exposed by this scene in the Last Confrontation is the lack of communication between them when it comes to expectations and desires.  Had this confrontation happened sooner, perhaps it would have made all the difference.

That is exactly what I was trying to tell in my above post...It was all too late...Ennis wanted to patch up but it bacame too late...Had it been earlier then it would have made thing easier if not completely alright...Losing Jack at that point of time was horrible and the worst that happened....

[tpe]

That is exactly what I was trying to tell in my above post...It was all too late...Ennis wanted to patch up but it bacame too late...Had it been earlier then it would have made thing easier if not completely alright...Losing Jack at that point of time was horrible and the worst that happened....

I do think time was very critical.  In the case of Jack also -- perhaps he should have pushed Ennis sooner, and moved him just in time before it became too late for both of them.

[myprivatejack]

I do think time was very critical.  In the case of Jack also -- perhaps he should have pushed Ennis sooner, and moved him just in time before it became too late for both of them.

Yes,this subject has already appeared in some other occasions,and I have always agreed in that Jack's fear to push Ennis too much against the ropes was a great obstacle during too many years.Surely,he was afraid of him running away,and losing him,but this joined to their real lack of communication in the subjects that really affected them the most,were a real and drmatic lost of time for them.

[vedrana]

Very well said..I would aso like to add that Ennis was so submissive by nature and a person he ...never wanted to express all that was in his heart.He always bottled up his feelings...But in the FC, when he found out that Jack was with other men , his bottled up feelings came to an exhausion point and he exploded his feelings...He showed Jack how vulnerable he had become...He was conscious about that too, so wanted to stay by himself for sometime, to just figure out as to what happened and what needs to be done..I feel that he came to terms with it and thus wanted to meet Jack but it is too late now..Thats the hugest tragedy of their lives...   :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

Yup! And, besides shirts - the biggest strike for our hearts!  :\'( Especially because we were prepared for a solution, for a change, for (if we are allowed to hope) a sweet life.... the words were finally spoken out, the truth as much as it was hurtful was told, a form of love statements were said from both sides, Jack embraced Ennis in the end... and then... a knife in the back! Jack died!

I don't know if I admitted this before, and I think not, coz it's stupid - but for a while I hated AP for killing Jack! :\'( :\'( :\'(

[vedrana]

Thanks also. 

You know, the root of the problem that was exposed by this scene in the Last Confrontation is the lack of communication between them when it comes to expectations and desires.  Had this confrontation happened sooner, perhaps it would have made all the difference.

You're so right here. I believe that it would have made a big difference. Jack never pressed on Ennis so hard as in FC, he always let him slip away without the real solution. Jack just waited far too long. Damn!

[vedrana]

That is exactly what I was trying to tell in my above post...It was all too late...Ennis wanted to patch up but it bacame too late...Had it been earlier then it would have made thing easier if not completely alright...Losing Jack at that point of time was horrible and the worst that happened....

I like the bold part - "easier, if not completely right"! Yup! Both better than the final outcome!

[vedrana]

Yes,this subject has already appeared in some other occasions,and I have always agreed in that Jack's fear to push Ennis too much against the ropes was a great obstacle during too many years.Surely,he was afraid of him running away,and losing him,but this joined to their real lack of communication in the subjects that really affected them the most,were a real and drmatic lost of time for them.

Unfortunately, it is often so in the RL too - being afraid of losing something, we avoid taking the proper steps, and finally we lose much more!

In their case the loss was unimaginable! :\'(