Topic: was ennis gay ?

[lamusica]

This topic is one that interests me because I have always heard about boys' boarding schools where it was often a rite of passage to have at least one homosexual encounter.  Were all those boys gay?  Did one incident make them gay?  Does loving only one man, and never really even fantasizing about other men, make one gay?  When I saw this movie with some friends, two of them said, immediately after the viewing, that Ennis and Jack were not gay.  They just loved one another.  (I know Jack had a lot of other men over the years and maybe before Ennis, too, but did he ever LOVE any of them?)  Does love change anything where the gayness is concerned?  Because Ennis loved Jack and ONLY had sex (homosexually) with Jack, is he gay or straight?  Does it matter how many partners he had?  What do you think?  Also, if you read history, many of the ancient Greeks honored homosexuality. Many were married with children, but still had their men partners, and no one thought anything about that.  It was considered natural.  Were these men gay??

[tpe]

This topic is one that interests me because I have always heard about boys' boarding schools where it was often a rite of passage to have at least one homosexual encounter.  Were all those boys gay?  Did one incident make them gay?  Does loving only one man, and never really even fantasizing about other men, make one gay?  When I saw this movie with some friends, two of them said, immediately after the viewing, that Ennis and Jack were not gay.  They just loved one another.  (I know Jack had a lot of other men over the years and maybe before Ennis, too, but did he ever LOVE any of them?)  Does love change anything where the gayness is concerned?  Because Ennis loved Jack and ONLY had sex (homosexually) with Jack, is he gay or straight?  Does it matter how many partners he had?  What do you think?  Also, if you read history, many of the ancient Greeks honored homosexuality. Many were married with children, but still had their men partners, and no one thought anything about that.  It was considered natural.  Were these men gay??

The answer is yes and no.

The greek concept is not the same as the more modern concept of "homosexuality".  Like us today, some Greeks seemed to have loved men exclusively, whereas some loved both men and women.  In the classic Hellenic and the later Hellenistic models, sexuality is more fluid, and hence less clear cut. 

Were some of the ancient Greeks and Romans "homosexual".  From the written accounts and other evidence, the answer is a resounding YES.  The Poet Strato is clearly an example.  And so were some of the great warrior heroes who abhorred the love of women in favor of the love of comrades.

The fluidity of sexuality does not preclude the notion of a sexual orientation.  It is a matter of degree.

In the case of Ennis, there are arguments that can be made in support of his gayness.  Likewise, there are similar arguments that can be made to the contrary.  But the strongest point in support of gayness is Proulx's acknowledgement that BBM is a study of homohobia.  The implication is that of going against one's own inner nature.  This implication is clearly not about a passing phase.  It references the deepest aspect of every one of us: that the nature of how we love and who we love will inevitably see the light and assert itself -- no matter what society or upbringing conditions us to think.

 

[ksxks]

Rushing in where angels fear to tread, I'm going to say something that is by no means original with me, but may seem controversial to some on the forum.

Sexuality--which for this purpose we can define as one's natural tendency to be attracted to men or women (or both)--is not an all-or-nothng, up or down, black or white question.

Many have compared sexuality to a continuum or a meter, say, with numbers from 1 to 10 (1 being totally hetero and 10 being totally homo.) Thus, I can't see either Jack or Ennis being a 1 or a 10, since they both have SOME interest in both sexes.

Probably Jack would have a somewhat higher number than Ennis. But it's up for debate how high their numbers would be.

Ahdunno. "Just thinking out loud."

 

I totally think this, too -- all aspects of people, not just in their sexuality, are on a continuum.  And not only a 1 to 10 meter, but all different aspects, such as what is your natural gender (not that that is even always clear), how masculine or feminine you express your gender, how people perceive you, who you're attracted to, all of that.  Anyway, these are two fascinating characters to spend time trying to figure out! 

Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way?  I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that.  I thought that's what we love to talk about here, these characters and their sexual inclinations.  And our own, if we want to talk about it.

kathy

[dalemidex]

Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way?  I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that. 
kathy

I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions.  I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.

Why is this?

I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers.  Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story.   So the ground is fertile.

A second reason is in the way one defines "gay".  To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward  men.  Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there.  Hence Ennis is gay.  Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that,  including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a  way of life.  Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay".  This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate.  And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.

Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another.  From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay.  Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story.  Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story.  Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor.  A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.

For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story.  That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation.  If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles.  I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story)  if they were both gay.  (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.)  A  deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.

No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument.  But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.

[jeffjoe]

It's so complicated, try to understand the heart of a lonely man, maybe he was not, or maybe he just want to be gay but deny this feeling because his world will be cruel with him...   

[ksxks]

Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way?  I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that. 
kathy

I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions.  I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.

Why is this?

I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers.  Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story.   So the ground is fertile.

A second reason is in the way one defines "gay".  To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward  men.  Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there.  Hence Ennis is gay.  Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that,  including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a  way of life.  Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay".  This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate.  And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.

Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another.  From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay.  Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story.  Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story.  Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor.  A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.

For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story.  That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation.  If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles.  I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story)  if they were both gay.  (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.)  A  deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.

No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument.  But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.

Thanks Dale -- I love your quite interesting explanation of the different sides of this "debate."  I'm kind of a middle person -- I can see it either way.  And obviously, my not being a man, Ennis's being gay or not doesn't hold an actual personal relating for me.  (If the characters were women, I would have a different set of feelings perhaps.)  I care a lot, though, about this question not only for the drama of the story, but about everything the story represents to us in real life.  So I guess I can understand these strong feelings here on this question.  Maybe a main aspect of this has to do with that some people feel they were "born gay," and some people have had a more flexible becoming into gayness.  I'm of the flexible bent, so to speak.

Let's see, how do I see Ennis?  As having since his younger years at the least curiosity about loving men (which curiosity of course had to have come from feeling inclined that way) and then all those feelings and curiosity being tainted by the Earl situation, and thus his terrible internal conflicts and repression.  So I can see him at 19 as neither straight nor gay.  Or, I should say, both straight and gay.  Living a straight life, but having gayness in his heart.  Enter Jack...  (Yet the question still never got a chance to really get answered, just because of his psychoemotional composition of fighting himself and Jack over this love he felt.)

kathy

[edgar]

In the case of Ennis, there are arguments that can be made in support of his gayness.  Likewise, there are similar arguments that can be made to the contrary.  But the strongest point in support of gayness is Proulx's acknowledgement that BBM is a study of homohobia.  The implication is that of going against one's own inner nature.  This implication is clearly not about a passing phase.  It references the deepest aspect of every one of us: that the nature of how we love and who we love will inevitably see the light and assert itself -- no matter what society or upbringing conditions us to think.
 

I very much respect your thoughts, tpe, but I'm afraid I have to disagree. I understand Proulx's comment as the role of society in the work. If I recall, she included the setting in her comment to which you refer.... Something like "a study of homophobia in Wyoming at that time." Thus, I think her comment emphasizes the social factors like Ennis's upbringing, the Earl incident, the need for the "I'm not queer" conversation, etc. Also, the spectre of the tire iron which hangs over the short story (more than the movie) is a sort of symbol for the REAL THREAT of violence and death that Jack and Ennis had to face. I thought Ennis's statement "If this thing grabs ahold of us at the wrong place, wrong time, we're dead" was more of a central passage in the short story. It indicates more about the reality of the society than any of Ennis's personal hangups.

Then of course there is the death of Jack, which proves Ennis was right and proves that society really was homophobic.

I don't actually think "homophobic" is an accurate term to apply to a man who is gay but ashamed. I think it applies to straight people/dominant culture who are afraid something different from themselves.

Ennis gay? maybe (but, as I indicated, it's not a black/white issue imo). Ennis homophobic? maybe. But if so, it could possibly indicate he's straight, or at least that he's bought into the dominant culture's marginalization of/discrimination against gay people.

[monicita]

Hi, I've come back to this interesting topic after months, because there is a discussion going on on the "you may be a sinner" thread, about whether Ennis is gay and if he really wanted Jack to come on to him in the FNIT scene or not. So I remembered this thread and I can see it has evolved a lot since I last read it.

What struck me most were the ideas that people either "need" Ennis to be gay or the opposite. That they need it to accomodate their own views of the world, of love of gayness. I think that is so true! The same thing happens with another topic that was heatedly discussed for a time: Is being gay or homosexual something you are born with or not ( a thread I started in January). I would say, in both cases, it has to do with what we need to be true, both as a society and as an individual. The answers have been widely different over the centuries, even the ancient Greeks and Romans already disagreed about it. And this is why there is such a heated discussion going on about it.

Do I think Ennis was gay? As I said in the other thread: If being gay means defining yourself as gay, then no, Ennis never defined himself as gay. He fought hard against that all his life and it nearly (or fully)) broke him up as a human being. If being gay means having sex with other men (or one man), then yes, he is gay. If being gay means focussing your desire for intimacy on one sex or the other, I'm not sure, because there definitely was intimacy with Alma as well. And many marriages never get more intimate than what Ennis and Alma had. He wanted so desperately to have a real family, a home life, what he couldn't have as a kid, because his parents died early on: He wanted security, normality, and a life with Jack couldn't give him that. But he couldn't live without Jack either. So he was caught in between. And maybe that is what we will have to say in the end: He was caught between being gay and leading a "normal" life, because he couldn't keep from wanting both, and both society and the way he was made emotionally didn't allow him any way out. Poor Ennis! Poor everybody, who has or had to live with this dilemma. You all have my unswerving solidarity. We shall overcome 

monicita

[gimmejack]

Interestingly enough the term bi-sexual is hardly mentioned as if it's a bad word. Since we are on this topic, I would love some input as to why that is.  I'm sure the answers will be intruiging.

Ennis seems neither gay nor straight...yes he fell in love with a man but he was still "able" to have sex with other women.  Gray area=bisexual to me.  However, labeling humans as anything at all can be destructive in so many ways.

[dalemidex]

As long as we're on this topic, here's a thought I had some time ago.  If Ennis was a gay man, did his father perhaps pick up on this during Ennis' boyhood, leading to the whole Earl & Rich episode?

Many gay men (that this is a stereotype, I readily admit) were kind, polite, gentle, quiet, somewhat out-of-place young boys.  I don't think it's a huge stretch to see a young Ennis as most or all of these things.  Remember he's 19 when we see him...how many rural=bred 1960's 19-year old men were as polite as Ennis is from the start?  Or as considerate for Jack, even from the early stages of their friendship?

From the 1963 Ennis I don't think it's too hard to extrapolate backwards to guess the kind of kid Ennis might have been.  And if so, Did Ennis' father pick up on this?  Worry that his son wasn't becoming enough of a man for him?  Did this perhaps even spur on the murder of Earl, one which I've grown to believe was almost certainly done by Ennis' father?  Ennis as an adult has certainly toughed into a conventional man, but he's unusually polite and considerate for tye average guy of his age.

Again, this is based somewhat on stereotype.  Every sensitive little boy is not a gay man, and every gay man was not this type of child.  But plenty of gay men were indeed fish-out-of-water children noted for polite and gentle behavior.  Ennis could have been a straight man with a sensitive-boy childhood, and his father may still have killed Earl in fear that his sensitive son was turning out queer even if Ennis ultimately wasn't.  That's possible, too.  But if Ennis was gay, to me this is just one more way in which all the pieces seem to fit so much better. 

[tpe]

Rushing in where angels fear to tread, I'm going to say something that is by no means original with me, but may seem controversial to some on the forum.

Sexuality--which for this purpose we can define as one's natural tendency to be attracted to men or women (or both)--is not an all-or-nothng, up or down, black or white question.

Many have compared sexuality to a continuum or a meter, say, with numbers from 1 to 10 (1 being totally hetero and 10 being totally homo.) Thus, I can't see either Jack or Ennis being a 1 or a 10, since they both have SOME interest in both sexes.

Probably Jack would have a somewhat higher number than Ennis. But it's up for debate how high their numbers would be.

Ahdunno. "Just thinking out loud."

 

I totally think this, too -- all aspects of people, not just in their sexuality, are on a continuum.  And not only a 1 to 10 meter, but all different aspects, such as what is your natural gender (not that that is even always clear), how masculine or feminine you express your gender, how people perceive you, who you're attracted to, all of that.  Anyway, these are two fascinating characters to spend time trying to figure out! 

Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way?  I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that.  I thought that's what we love to talk about here, these characters and their sexual inclinations.  And our own, if we want to talk about it.

kathy

Hello kathy,

I was just a bit surprised at the strong reactions in the old thread I referenced in the first page of this thread (about Ennis and Jack being gay, bisexual, or human).  I personally believe that sexuality is a continuum, with different degrees defining one's orientation.  Some people understandably feel strongly about the nature of sexuality because it can be manipulated as a means to an end... 



 

[tpe]

Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way?  I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that. 
kathy

I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions.  I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.

Why is this?

I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers.  Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story.   So the ground is fertile.

A second reason is in the way one defines "gay".  To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward  men.  Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there.  Hence Ennis is gay.  Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that,  including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a  way of life.  Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay".  This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate.  And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.

Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another.  From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay.  Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story.  Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story.  Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor.  A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.

For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story.  That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation.  If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles.  I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story)  if they were both gay.  (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.)  A  deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.

No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument.  But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.

Very well put.  These arguments certainly show the complexity and internal workings behind the gay-straight debate.

[tpe]

It's so complicated, try to understand the heart of a lonely man, maybe he was not, or maybe he just want to be gay but deny this feeling because his world will be cruel with him...   

Yes.  It is complicated.  And very deeply conflicted.  This is what makes things hard to pigeonhole.

[tpe]

Let's see, how do I see Ennis?  As having since his younger years at the least curiosity about loving men (which curiosity of course had to have come from feeling inclined that way) and then all those feelings and curiosity being tainted by the Earl situation, and thus his terrible internal conflicts and repression.  So I can see him at 19 as neither straight nor gay.  Or, I should say, both straight and gay.  Living a straight life, but having gayness in his heart.  Enter Jack...  (Yet the question still never got a chance to really get answered, just because of his psychoemotional composition of fighting himself and Jack over this love he felt.)

kathy

The answer is less important than the process of seeking out an answer.  Thanks kathy.

To add to the confusion are the enigmatic statements "You know I ain't queer" and "Me neither".  To me, there is a subtle distinction between "queerness" and "gayness" in the context of that scene...

 

[tpe]

I very much respect your thoughts, tpe, but I'm afraid I have to disagree. I understand Proulx's comment as the role of society in the work. If I recall, she included the setting in her comment to which you refer.... Something like "a study of homophobia in Wyoming at that time." Thus, I think her comment emphasizes the social factors like Ennis's upbringing, the Earl incident, the need for the "I'm not queer" conversation, etc. Also, the spectre of the tire iron which hangs over the short story (more than the movie) is a sort of symbol for the REAL THREAT of violence and death that Jack and Ennis had to face. I thought Ennis's statement "If this thing grabs ahold of us at the wrong place, wrong time, we're dead" was more of a central passage in the short story. It indicates more about the reality of the society than any of Ennis's personal hangups.

Then of course there is the death of Jack, which proves Ennis was right and proves that society really was homophobic.

I don't actually think "homophobic" is an accurate term to apply to a man who is gay but ashamed. I think it applies to straight people/dominant culture who are afraid something different from themselves.

Ennis gay? maybe (but, as I indicated, it's not a black/white issue imo). Ennis homophobic? maybe. But if so, it could possibly indicate he's straight, or at least that he's bought into the dominant culture's marginalization of/discrimination against gay people.

Hello edgar.  I do agree with you that the study of homophobia is intrinsically related to the society in which Ennis and Jack evolved and revolved.  But if I remember a number of Proulx's essays and interviews correctly enough (e.g., the one that accompanies the screenplay and the Missouri Review article) the context is very much internal to Ennis as it is external.  It is in this context that I interpreted the implication in question.

[tpe]

Hi, I've come back to this interesting topic after months, because there is a discussion going on on the "you may be a sinner" thread, about whether Ennis is gay and if he really wanted Jack to come on to him in the FNIT scene or not. So I remembered this thread and I can see it has evolved a lot since I last read it.

What struck me most were the ideas that people either "need" Ennis to be gay or the opposite. That they need it to accomodate their own views of the world, of love of gayness. I think that is so true! The same thing happens with another topic that was heatedly discussed for a time: Is being gay or homosexual something you are born with or not ( a thread I started in January). I would say, in both cases, it has to do with what we need to be true, both as a society and as an individual. The answers have been widely different over the centuries, even the ancient Greeks and Romans already disagreed about it. And this is why there is such a heated discussion going on about it.

Do I think Ennis was gay? As I said in the other thread: If being gay means defining yourself as gay, then no, Ennis never defined himself as gay. He fought hard against that all his life and it nearly (or fully)) broke him up as a human being. If being gay means having sex with other men (or one man), then yes, he is gay. If being gay means focussing your desire for intimacy on one sex or the other, I'm not sure, because there definitely was intimacy with Alma as well. And many marriages never get more intimate than what Ennis and Alma had. He wanted so desperately to have a real family, a home life, what he couldn't have as a kid, because his parents died early on: He wanted security, normality, and a life with Jack couldn't give him that. But he couldn't live without Jack either. So he was caught in between. And maybe that is what we will have to say in the end: He was caught between being gay and leading a "normal" life, because he couldn't keep from wanting both, and both society and the way he was made emotionally didn't allow him any way out. Poor Ennis! Poor everybody, who has or had to live with this dilemma. You all have my unswerving solidarity. We shall overcome 

monicita

Thanks monicita.  And as elucidated here and in other posts, gayness as a world view can sometimes preordain one's own judgements in matters like this.

It really depends on one's notion of gayness.

For me, it is a question of degree.  A gay person is certainly not incapable of having sex with the oppsosite gender.  One of my older gay friends did have sex in his late teens with a woman and enjoyed it.  But since then, he had found out for himself that sex with men was infinitely more to his liking, and has stuck to that preference.  Was he bisexual at one point?  as he perhaps straight in his early years?

I am treading on dangerous ground here, but what distinguishes a gay person from a bisexual person?  Certainly NOT physical faculties, as both are capable to having sex with the opposite gender.

IMO, what distinguishes a gay person from a bisexual person is intertwined mental and physiological PREFERENCE.  In short, it is a matter of degree.  A gay man is just as capable of having an orgasm with a female partner as would a bisexual man.  It just so happens that a gay man has decided that sex with men is more pleasureable (mentally and physiologically) for him and that a bisexual man finds sex with men and women equally pleasureable.

What has this to do with Ennis?  Ennis's ability to have sex and enjoy sex with women does not define him being straight.  Even put Jack into the equation, and it still does not definitively define him as bisexual.  As I have elaborated in the above argument, gayness is a matter of degree and mental and physiological preference.  It is subtle.  It is not a simple matter.

[welshwitch]

If it has to do with how one sees oneself, then Ennis doesn't see himself as gay; not a word he'd have recognized in context. He tried to believe or convince himslef he was straight, I think, hence so many of his problems. Don't know how Jack would have defined himself, though I think, if the word had been current, he wouldn't have objected to gay as a description of him.

Strictly speaking since they both had sex with another man/men and both fathered children I suppose they're both bisexual. I can almost imagine Jack taking a sort of pride in that epithet, but not Ennis.

[lamusica]

After reading all the recent posts on this thread, I think the answer is obvious.  It really just does not matter what Ennis was.  Why do we have to label everything?  The fact is, he loved Jack, and, I do believe, he loved Alma, although it probably wasn't to the same degree.  We always have to pigeonhole everyone, but for what purpose?  Well, Ennis is Ennis, and he is consistent throughout the story.  He is true to himself, and that's enough for me.

[jesseanne21]

If it has to do with how one sees oneself, then Ennis doesn't see himself as gay; not a word he'd have recognized in context. He tried to believe or convince himslef he was straight, I think, hence so many of his problems. Don't know how Jack would have defined himself, though I think, if the word had been current, he wouldn't have objected to gay as a description of him.

Strictly speaking since they both had sex with another man/men and both fathered children I suppose they're both bisexual. I can almost imagine Jack taking a sort of pride in that epithet, but not Ennis.

I agree with you, Welshwitch...the most important thing is how Ennis saw himself

In one of his books, David Viscott said something like the thing that makes most people unhappy is that ther inner lives (thoughts, feelings, emotions, wants, needs, desires) don't match their outer lives (the face they show the world, what they want other people to believe about them).  The struggle between the inner life and the outer life (basically the struggle between the heart versus the head) is life's greatest challenge. 

Ennis greatest challenge was his love/desire for Jack versus living in world that condemned that. 

[welshwitch]

Objectively it may not matter what label is attached to people, but the "queer" one obviously worried Ennis, if not Jack. And was Ennis actually true to himself? If he had been, wouldn't he have been less conflicted? My feeling is that what he wouldn't do was the one thing he needed to - ie admit he loved Jack, whatever that made him.

[tpe]

After reading all the recent posts on this thread, I think the answer is obvious.  It really just does not matter what Ennis was.  Why do we have to label everything?  The fact is, he loved Jack, and, I do believe, he loved Alma, although it probably wasn't to the same degree.  We always have to pigeonhole everyone, but for what purpose?  Well, Ennis is Ennis, and he is consistent throughout the story.  He is true to himself, and that's enough for me.

Hello lamusica. 

All labels are simply approximates.  You can get reasonably close to the nature of things by a well-thought-out definition.  But people tend to forget subtleties when they use labels.  It is understandable.

I don't really think there is anything intrinsically wrong with labels.  They can identify and unite as much as obfuscate and cause divisions.  In the case of Ennis, his sexuality is a valid point of discussion, if only to illuminate our own notions of sex and human nature.

Let us not forget that many people use labels to get a handle on things.  Some are too simplistic and prefer to apply labels simplistically.  Others elaborate labels so much that the underlying point is obscured.  Like almost everything in life, labels tell us about the people who use them as much as the ideas behind them.

As to jesseanne21'a and welshwitch's comment, I agree to a point.  But how many times in life have we seen people live their lives in denial?  Ennis -- and any individual, for that matter -- is never a closed entity.  Knowledge of oneself is never a simple matter as how we see ourselves.  Our vision of ourselves and others constantly evolve.  How Ennis saw himself in the beginning is not the same thing he saw in the end.  That is the journey that is life.

[stacp]

Hi, I've come back to this interesting topic after months, because there is a discussion going on on the "you may be a sinner" thread, about whether Ennis is gay and if he really wanted Jack to come on to him in the FNIT scene or not. So I remembered this thread and I can see it has evolved a lot since I last read it.

What struck me most were the ideas that people either "need" Ennis to be gay or the opposite. That they need it to accomodate their own views of the world, of love of gayness. I think that is so true! The same thing happens with another topic that was heatedly discussed for a time: Is being gay or homosexual something you are born with or not ( a thread I started in January). I would say, in both cases, it has to do with what we need to be true, both as a society and as an individual. The answers have been widely different over the centuries, even the ancient Greeks and Romans already disagreed about it. And this is why there is such a heated discussion going on about it.

Do I think Ennis was gay? As I said in the other thread: If being gay means defining yourself as gay, then no, Ennis never defined himself as gay. He fought hard against that all his life and it nearly (or fully)) broke him up as a human being. If being gay means having sex with other men (or one man), then yes, he is gay. If being gay means focussing your desire for intimacy on one sex or the other, I'm not sure, because there definitely was intimacy with Alma as well. And many marriages never get more intimate than what Ennis and Alma had. He wanted so desperately to have a real family, a home life, what he couldn't have as a kid, because his parents died early on: He wanted security, normality, and a life with Jack couldn't give him that. But he couldn't live without Jack either. So he was caught in between. And maybe that is what we will have to say in the end: He was caught between being gay and leading a "normal" life, because he couldn't keep from wanting both, and both society and the way he was made emotionally didn't allow him any way out. Poor Ennis! Poor everybody, who has or had to live with this dilemma. You all have my unswerving solidarity. We shall overcome 

monicita

Monicita, I loved your post and agree that if Ennis is gay depends on how you define that term (and I would imagine there are many "definitions" out there).  However, I really don't see the "intimacy" between Ennis and Alma.  Yes, you see them at home, at the drive-in, and sledding but I didn't detect real intimacy in those scenes.  Ennis to me looks aloof during the drive-in scene, sitting with his arm around Alma in a perfunctory fashion.  In the bedroom scene, Alma desperately tries to have intimacy with Ennis as they are making love (and I am separating sex from intimacy here) but then he flips her over, cutting off the intimacy.  I'm not saying intimacy didn't happen between Alma and Ennis, I just didn't see it.  I think the fact that Ennis seemed attracted (in some way) to both men and women makes him at least bisexual.  But that's IMO.

[welshwitch]

The relationship between Ennis and Alma seems to me to lack something almost undefinable - deep intimacy and uinderstanding, allied to passion that comes unforced and is mutually pleasurable? They seem to be so involved in the minutiae of daily existence, like most of us, trapped by routine and the demands of childcare and making a living; they're alos both fairly non-verbal and never seem to discuss anything. I never get any sense of physical harmony between them; of course Alma has two children and apparently wants more, but that's a different issue and there's at least a suspicion that the children may be more what she wants than Ennis. Once married to Monroe she's pregnant again ? fairly soon.

[ksxks]

Interestingly enough the term bi-sexual is hardly mentioned as if it's a bad word. Since we are on this topic, I would love some input as to why that is.  I'm sure the answers will be intruiging.

Ennis seems neither gay nor straight...yes he fell in love with a man but he was still "able" to have sex with other women.  Gray area=bisexual to me.  However, labeling humans as anything at all can be destructive in so many ways.

I'll say right out that I would call myself bisexual, well aware that it bothers some people.  I think anyone with a "gray area" opinion about anything, not just their sexual identity, is often disapproved of by some people, because those some people want their answers in yes or no, black or white.  I don't generally do black or white. 

I would hope that's changing, the need to say one way is right and the other way is wrong.  I always hope everything is changing, for the better of course -- but I'm not so sure.  Besides, the definition of "bisexual" is as not-clear-cut as the definitions of "gay" and "straight."  Anyway, it's not exactly even true that I'm bisexual, only unless the male of the equation is also bisexual -- in other words, I wouldn't be with "straight" men or women, only gay or bisexual men or women.  And while we're at it, I have strong feelings for transgendered people, though that doesn't really have anything to do with this BBM story.  Only that I would hope we can add some of that into our mix also.

kathy


kathy

[tpe]

I'll say right out that I would call myself bisexual, well aware that it bothers some people.  I think anyone with a "gray area" opinion about anything, not just their sexual identity, is often disapproved of by some people, because those some people want their answers in yes or no, black or white.  I don't generally do black or white. 

I would hope that's changing, the need to say one way is right and the other way is wrong.  I always hope everything is changing, for the better of course -- but I'm not so sure.  Besides, the definition of "bisexual" is as not-clear-cut as the definitions of "gay" and "straight."  Anyway, it's not exactly even true that I'm bisexual, only unless the male of the equation is also bisexual -- in other words, I wouldn't be with "straight" men or women, only gay or bisexual men or women.  And while we're at it, I have strong feelings for transgendered people, though that doesn't really have anything to do with this BBM story.  Only that I would hope we can add some of that into our mix also.

kathy

kathy, I suspect that what you describe here is much more common that people are wont to admit.  Thanks.

[gimmejack]

Interestingly enough the term bi-sexual is hardly mentioned as if it's a bad word. Since we are on this topic, I would love some input as to why that is.  I'm sure the answers will be intruiging.

Ennis seems neither gay nor straight...yes he fell in love with a man but he was still "able" to have sex with other women.  Gray area=bisexual to me.  However, labeling humans as anything at all can be destructive in so many ways.

I'll say right out that I would call myself bisexual, well aware that it bothers some people.  I think anyone with a "gray area" opinion about anything, not just their sexual identity, is often disapproved of by some people, because those some people want their answers in yes or no, black or white.  I don't generally do black or white. 

I would hope that's changing, the need to say one way is right and the other way is wrong.  I always hope everything is changing, for the better of course -- but I'm not so sure.  Besides, the definition of "bisexual" is as not-clear-cut as the definitions of "gay" and "straight."  Anyway, it's not exactly even true that I'm bisexual, only unless the male of the equation is also bisexual -- in other words, I wouldn't be with "straight" men or women, only gay or bisexual men or women.  And while we're at it, I have strong feelings for transgendered people, though that doesn't really have anything to do with this BBM story.  Only that I would hope we can add some of that into our mix also.

kathy


kathy

I guess youre right, it's the need for a yes or no answer...a black and white clear cut situation.  Some people will never be comfortable with the gray area and will always have a need to define themselves and others...an impossible task!!  Thanks for your input. 

[welshwitch]

I guess if you're bothered by the notion of bisexuality you're probably bothered by a mass of other things as well. What you're probably nopt doing is looking into yourself or at others, except to categorize and criticize.

There used to be an English expression - "It doesn't matter what you do as long as it doesn't frighten the horses." I think the world might in some way be a better place if we stuck with that. What we do in bed and with/to whom seems to me to be a limited part of what we are.

If you define bisexual as capable of having sex with men or women, then many people, perhaps most,  would flt into that category. If you define it by excluding those who don't put their desires or interest into action, then it's a smaller number, depending on how you define having sex. It all comes back to defining one's terms and does it really matter?
When we see ennis and Jack in the SNIT sequences what matters is the love and tenderness between them, not whether they're male, female or Martian.

[chameau]

When we see ennis and Jack in the SNIT sequences what matters is the love and tenderness between them, not whether they're male, female or Martian.

Very well said and true, thank you!

[ksxks]

Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way?  I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that. 
kathy

I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions.  I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.

Why is this?

I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers.  Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story.   So the ground is fertile.

A second reason is in the way one defines "gay".  To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward  men.  Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there.  Hence Ennis is gay.  Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that,  including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a  way of life.  Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay".  This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate.  And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.

Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another.  From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay.  Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story.  Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story.  Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor.  A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.

For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story.  That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation.  If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles.  I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story)  if they were both gay.  (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.)  A  deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.

No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument.  But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.

I'm replying to this post a second time.  You've made me think of something else on this subject.  First of all, of course, defining anything depends on the terms of the person doing the defining.  I think that defining Ennis as gay or straight would have even more significance to one particular group:  straight men.  I'll just say this about straight men, not women, because generally speaking, straight women are more accepting of gay men than straight men are.  I know that's a big generalization and isn't always true by any means, but for straight (or any) women, gay men can be the best of both worlds -- they're not a physical threat, as in rape, which straight men are; and we can be friends without the bothersome aspects of sexual tension and all that leads to.  It's a beautiful thing for Mars and Venus to be friends, more rare than same-sex friends.  Kind of the opposite of being gay. 

Anyway, back to straight men, who are, after all, "society."  I want this movie to have a big impact on how society sees gay men.  So, to the "typical" straight man (if there is such a thing) (and I don't think "typical" would apply to any of our straight men here on this forum)...to the typical straight man, is the story of Ennis and Jack more powerful and potentially life-changing to a straight man if Ennis is straight or if he's gay?  You'd think the answer would be the obvious one:  if Ennis is straight.  But on the other hand, let's say Ennis is gay -- straight men could relate to Ennis, see a man something like themselves, and that such a man can find his gayness and live it.  If he doesn't repress it, that is, to his own and everyone else's detriment.  If "society," i.e., said straight male viewers, doesn't kill him phyically or kill his spirit.

Oh shoot, it's just too complex.  I'm sorry -- I say too many words, make too many statements with too many qualifiers and don't really come to any conclusions.  I think we might all know the answers when we die.  But I love delving into the complexities of Ennis and Jack, and talking about how they affect our own lives.  And I know this isn't my therapy group so quit your yammerin' already.

kathy

[ksxks]

Let's see, how do I see Ennis?  As having since his younger years at the least curiosity about loving men (which curiosity of course had to have come from feeling inclined that way) and then all those feelings and curiosity being tainted by the Earl situation, and thus his terrible internal conflicts and repression.  So I can see him at 19 as neither straight nor gay.  Or, I should say, both straight and gay.  Living a straight life, but having gayness in his heart.  Enter Jack...  (Yet the question still never got a chance to really get answered, just because of his psychoemotional composition of fighting himself and Jack over this love he felt.)

kathy

The answer is less important than the process of seeking out an answer.  Thanks kathy.

To add to the confusion are the enigmatic statements "You know I ain't queer" and "Me neither".  To me, there is a subtle distinction between "queerness" and "gayness" in the context of that scene...

Oh jeez, thanks a lot, tpe -- you're going to get me going again, and I was trying to leave this thread for now. 

I totally agree with you, though, about the process of seeking the answer -- the journey rather than the destination.

As to "gay" and "queer," I just think the term gay wasn't used then, simple as that.  Queer was the term used so that's what they said.  As to saying they were not queer, that is discussed at length on another thread is it not?

kathy