Author Topic: was ennis gay ?  (Read 650874 times)

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #90 on: Aug 04, 2006, 07:10 AM »
dalemidix:  Yes, it rips my heart out, too.  I think Ennis needed more than only Jack telling him it's alright.  He saw Jack as a dreamer and unrealistic, whereas he thought his own take on life was the realistic one.  At first, certainly, what an incredible joy to be thrown together with Jack and to find a kindred spirit.  But he couldn't from the start reconcile that with what he had to do -- go back and marry Alma.

I do think Ennis's sense of pragmatism got in the way of his love for Jack.  But I do also think that Jack must have been a revelation to Ennis.  I do think that Ennis did take some comfort in Jack's reassurances, even if they did not change Ennis's pragmatic view of life and the world. I guess that's why Ennis loved Jack.





Offline dalemidex

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Gender: Male
  • Friend that's more words than you spoke in 2 weeks
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #91 on: Aug 04, 2006, 08:40 AM »
Yes, it rips my heart out, too.  I think Ennis needed more than only Jack telling him it's alright.  He saw Jack as a dreamer and unrealistic, whereas he thought his own take on life was the realistic one.  At first, certainly, what an incredible joy to be thrown together with Jack and to find a kindred spirit.  But he couldn't from the start reconcile that with what he had to do -- go back and marry Alma.


I do think Ennis's sense of pragmatism got in the way of his love for Jack.  But I do also think that Jack must have been a revelation to Ennis.  I do think that Ennis did take some comfort in Jack's reassurances, even if they did not change Ennis's pragmatic view of life and the world. I guess that's why Ennis loved Jack.


What beautiful contrast in those two posts.  Yet I think they are both true.  Even without the sexual nature, I suspect Ennis had never really gotten to know someone like Jack so well.  Perhaps never had gotten to know anyone very well before, being the closed-off person he was growing up in an isolated setting.  I think we see the "wow, who IS this guy" in Ennis' face more than once or twice. 

I wonder how the story would have turned out had the two of them not had such contrasting personalities.  Would the attraction have been less?  Would they have found a common ground to make things work out better?

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #92 on: Aug 04, 2006, 11:58 AM »
We all love those who see in us things we don;t see in ourselves, but what they see can sometimes frighten us. The feeling of recognition is rewarding while in their presence, but ir what they see is also something that is difficult and makes demands, it's often easier to suppress it when alone. this is what I think happened to Ennis; while with Jack what Jack found in him was a revelation but in the absence of Jack, dealing with what he'd found was too difficult and disruptive for Ennis, so he just retreated into the pattern he'd already set.

Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #93 on: Aug 04, 2006, 06:02 PM »
All of these posts are so good, tpe, dalemidex, welshwitch -- so much to think about, so many different ways to think about Ennis and Jack and what might have been.  I like what you said, dalemidex:  what if they had not been such contrasting personalities?  How would that have affected Ennis's discoveries of himself.  I think maybe that yes, the attraction wouldn't have been so charged.  Although that slower and more cautious approach might have helped Ennis "come out" easier -- or maybe the two would have come out together, in a closer process -- than with Jack, who Ennis saw as already knowing the ways of the world more than he did.

And ww, you hit it right on the head, I think -- that away from Jack, Ennis couldn't keep up the exhilarating sense he got from Jack of how he could be.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #94 on: Aug 08, 2006, 07:34 AM »
All of these posts are so good, tpe, dalemidex, welshwitch -- so much to think about, so many different ways to think about Ennis and Jack and what might have been.  I like what you said, dalemidex:  what if they had not been such contrasting personalities?  How would that have affected Ennis's discoveries of himself.  I think maybe that yes, the attraction wouldn't have been so charged.  Although that slower and more cautious approach might have helped Ennis "come out" easier -- or maybe the two would have come out together, in a closer process -- than with Jack, who Ennis saw as already knowing the ways of the world more than he did.

And ww, you hit it right on the head, I think -- that away from Jack, Ennis couldn't keep up the exhilarating sense he got from Jack of how he could be.

kathy

Thanks kathy.  And I do agree that Jack was a catalyst as well as an exhilarating influence on Ennis's persona.



Offline JT

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 3954
  • Gender: Male
  • Brokeback? Mountain? My home this is!
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #95 on: Aug 08, 2006, 06:57 PM »
Was Ennis gay?  Absolutely!  Deeply closeted and homophobic.  He is the extention and product of his environment and in 1963 Wyoming, being gay was not something you can talk about. 

Quote
And I do agree that Jack was a catalyst as well as an exhilarating influence on Ennis's persona.

I agree too that Jack was the catalyst.  IMO, Jack was the master mind behind the whole emotional drama within BBM and I love him for it. 

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #96 on: Aug 09, 2006, 08:23 AM »
I agree too that Jack was the catalyst. 

I stand corrected.  You are right when you said "THE".


greenfrog

  • Guest
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #97 on: Aug 10, 2006, 09:06 PM »
What I don't know - Whether or not Ennis was gay.

What I do know - Ennis was in love with Jack . . . and always will be.  :\'(

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #98 on: Aug 10, 2006, 09:12 PM »
What I don't know - Whether or not Ennis was gay.

What I do know - Ennis was in love with Jack . . . and always will be.  :\'(

Good point  :s)  :-\\ :\'(
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline Ginevra

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 840
  • Gender: Female
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #99 on: Aug 11, 2006, 05:32 AM »
What I don't know - Whether or not Ennis was gay.

What I do know - Ennis was in love with Jack . . . and always will be.  :\'(

absolutely agreed.  :)
"I have spread my dreams under your feet; tread softly because you tread on my dreams". (WB Yeats)

Offline Rosie

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 12208
  • Gender: Female
  • that old cold time
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #100 on: Aug 11, 2006, 06:29 AM »



........  I think we see the "wow, who IS this guy" in Ennis' face more than once or twice. 

 

..and isn't it beautiful to see.........   I like the way you've put that dalemidex.  :)
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #101 on: Aug 11, 2006, 07:52 AM »



........  I think we see the "wow, who IS this guy" in Ennis' face more than once or twice. 

 

..and isn't it beautiful to see.........   I like the way you've put that dalemidex.  :)

Yes.

Whether or not we agree that Ennis was gay, we do recognize the veracity of that love that blossomed between them.  I think in most of the scenes, that love was so understated.  But we recognize it all the same, as in the subtle hints mentioned above.

 

Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #102 on: Aug 11, 2006, 04:09 PM »
Whether or not we agree that Ennis was gay, we do recognize the veracity of that love that blossomed between them.  I think in most of the scenes, that love was so understated.  But we recognize it all the same, as in the subtle hints mentioned above.
 

Indeed, we see that love.  Understated, perhaps, but obvious to us and those who know what they're looking at.  We were lucky to get Heath and Jake to give us such expressive characters -- it's totally in their eyes and expressions and body language all the time.  Let's see, way up there with the best ones are:  the look on Jack's face when he's watching Ennis chattering away; then Ennis looking at him, saying "whut?" and then the smile after he says "that's the most I spoke..."  You can certainly see Ennis's pleasure in this newfound friendship and, I believe, his realization that it can be be more than a friendship...but that still doesn't answer "Is Ennis gay?"  Oh well -- I guess we'll just have to keep discussing it!   :i

I also love how you said it, dalemidex.  Ennis is all like "who IS this guy?"  Making me LOL.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #103 on: Aug 12, 2006, 04:11 PM »
Whether or not we agree that Ennis was gay, we do recognize the veracity of that love that blossomed between them.  I think in most of the scenes, that love was so understated.  But we recognize it all the same, as in the subtle hints mentioned above.
 

Indeed, we see that love.  Understated, perhaps, but obvious to us and those who know what they're looking at.  We were lucky to get Heath and Jake to give us such expressive characters -- it's totally in their eyes and expressions and body language all the time.  Let's see, way up there with the best ones are:  the look on Jack's face when he's watching Ennis chattering away; then Ennis looking at him, saying "whut?" and then the smile after he says "that's the most I spoke..."  You can certainly see Ennis's pleasure in this newfound friendship and, I believe, his realization that it can be be more than a friendship...but that still doesn't answer "Is Ennis gay?"  Oh well -- I guess we'll just have to keep discussing it!   :i

I also love how you said it, dalemidex.  Ennis is all like "who IS this guy?"  Making me LOL.

kathy


Thanks kathy.  I don't want to start a new argument about this ;) but there are sometimes advantages when sexually ambiguous characters are played by receptive and sympathetic straight men, the same way that straight roles have been played very well by less than straight actors.

I guess what gets added is a certain twist in the point of view that surprises us.  A fresh look from a different vantage point can sometimes succeed beautifully, as I think is the case with heath and Jake in BBM.

After all, a good actor should be able to projectn himself into any role very convincingly, as a good mirror captures an image.

 

Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #104 on: Aug 12, 2006, 09:37 PM »

Thanks kathy.  I don't want to start a new argument about this ;) but there are sometimes advantages when sexually ambiguous characters are played by receptive and sympathetic straight men, the same way that straight roles have been played very well by less than straight actors.

I guess what gets added is a certain twist in the point of view that surprises us.  A fresh look from a different vantage point can sometimes succeed beautifully, as I think is the case with heath and Jake in BBM.

After all, a good actor should be able to projectn himself into any role very convincingly, as a good mirror captures an image.


You know what your comments remind me of?  Of the "outsider's" perspective that Ang Lee brings to his films.  He is always said to have this unique perspective and sees things with a fresh focus and infinite interest because he isn't from the US.  So perhaps Heath and Jake, and other straight actors playing gay or gay-ish characters, and vice versa...if they're good actors anyway, find and show us a unique expression of feelings because they're not playing it on the outside, but searching from inside to see how they need to express it?  Something like that.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #105 on: Aug 13, 2006, 07:42 AM »
It's the idea of being pushed out of one's comfoirt zone, isn't it? In that situationit'spossible to find inside oneself thiongs one was unaware of. In the case of an actor, they get a sort of free pass - they can explore something they're not without having to be it.

You can tranfer this to the movie. ennis was well out of his comfort/familiarity zone up on the m ountain, and found things he could be and do that he wouldn't have elsewhere. I think of him as gay-on-the-mountain and gay-with-Jack, but not otherwise.

Offline JT

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 3954
  • Gender: Male
  • Brokeback? Mountain? My home this is!
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #106 on: Aug 13, 2006, 07:33 PM »
Quote
I think of him as gay-on-the-mountain and gay-with-Jack, but not otherwise.

In that case, the mountain was his closet and Jack was the only scrap of clothing that can keep him warm.  The ability for straight actors to play gay characters convincingly just proof what great actors Heath and Jake really are.  IMO their abilities in this awesome movie exceeds those of many veteran actors today.

Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #107 on: Aug 13, 2006, 07:41 PM »

In that case, the mountain was his closet and Jack was the only scrap of clothing that can keep him warm.  The ability for straight actors to play gay characters convincingly just proof what great actors Heath and Jake really are.  IMO their abilities in this awesome movie exceeds those of many veteran actors today.


You have expressed my sentiments exactly, except, I went one further. I said they were the best actors in my lifetime, and heaven knows there have been some great actors and actresses in the past 60 years.
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline JT

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 3954
  • Gender: Male
  • Brokeback? Mountain? My home this is!
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #108 on: Aug 13, 2006, 08:19 PM »
I was going to use the word "ever" in place of "today", but I can not discredit all the wonderful actors and actresses that I don't even know about.  So, "my lifetime" sounds about right.  Eventhough for me it's about 30 years.

Offline dalemidex

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Gender: Male
  • Friend that's more words than you spoke in 2 weeks
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #109 on: Aug 13, 2006, 10:25 PM »

In that case, the mountain was his closet and Jack was the only scrap of clothing that can keep him warm.  The ability for straight actors to play gay characters convincingly just proof what great actors Heath and Jake really are.  IMO their abilities in this awesome movie exceeds those of many veteran actors today.


You have expressed my sentiments exactly, except, I went one further. I said they were the best actors in my lifetime, and heaven knows there have been some great actors and actresses in the past 60 years.

One wonders, thinking back to great actors from decades past, how they would have done with a story like Brokeback.  Of course it's hard to imagine such a story being filimed in a drastically different time, too.  The time for this story has come.  I feel fortunately to have been around at that same time.   :)

Offline proulxfan

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
  • Gender: Male
  • " You know I ain't queer!"
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #110 on: Aug 14, 2006, 08:22 AM »
This is a question to which I have had different answers at different times, involving many of the points that have been mentioned on this thread and elsewhere on this forum. But I have come to the conclusion that Ennis was gay. In explaining why I think this, I will start by defining terms, as Welshwitch suggested. By "gay" in this context, I mean having an ongoing physical/sexual attraction for people of the same sex/gender, which is stronger than any such attraction for people of "the opposite" sex. It also involves identity of one's self, though in this case Ennis fights against it throughout the entire film. It was interesting for me to read that Ang Lee himself had no qualms about Ennis being gay, and said he thougt it was obvious as to what/who attracted Ennis. Obvious from Ang Lee's perspective translates quite differently for me and obviously for many others here. For us it wasn't obvious at all.

For me, it boils down to the conversation Ennis and Jack have at their next-to-last (in the film) camping trip, where Ennis asks Jack if things between Jack and Lureen are "normal", and does she-Lureen-ever "suspect". Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertantly, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.
Jack's response, that maybe Ennis ought to get out of there and move somewhere else, suggests that this is exactly how he understood the question, and being intimately knowlegeable about Ennis's fear, he offers the first suggestion that comes to his mind. That's our Jack, remember? "Ready, shoot, aim." He doesn't seem to quite grasp the signficance of what Ennis is asking/telling him. As one who struggled mightilyfor more than two decades with trying to keep exactly this secret, I cannot really see any equally plausible interpretation of just what Ennis is so afraid of other people knowing about him.

As for Ennis wanting a family, it is here that I think Ennis displays one of his most striking character flaws. He may indeed want a family, but he is unwilling to commit himself to making the sacrifices necessary to provide for them adequately, and spends all of his free vacation time-according to the story-on fishing trips with Jack, never with Alma or his daughters. He compromises his 'career' in doing so. This doesn't speak well of a sincere desire to be a good husband and father, at least in the ways which would count in his rural Wyoming culture. On the other hand, having a wife and kids is the best insurance he can provide himself and the outside world that he is not, in fact, gay/queer. They inadvertantly help him prop up his denial system, to their detriment. I'm not saying he doesn't love his wife and daughters, in his way, but he fails-or is unable-to give them priorty in his life. So, that's my two cents worth. 

 
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2006, 08:51 AM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #111 on: Aug 14, 2006, 09:49 AM »
This is a question to which I have had different answers at different times, involving many of the points that have been mentioned on this thread and elsewhere on this forum. But I have come to the conclusion that Ennis was gay. In explaining why I think this, I will start by defining terms, as Welshwitch suggested. By "gay" in this context, I mean having an ongoing physical/sexual attraction for people of the same sex/gender, which is stronger than any such attraction for people of "the opposite" sex. It also involves identity of one's self, though in this case Ennis fights against it throughout the entire film. It was interesting for me to read that Ang Lee himself had no qualms about Ennis being gay, and said he thougt it was obvious as to what/who attracted Ennis. Obvious from Ang Lee's perspective translates quite differently for me and obviously for many others here. For us it wasn't obvious at all.

For me, it boils down to the conversation Ennis and Jack have at their next-to-last (in the film) camping trip, where Ennis asks Jack if things between Jack and Lureen are "normal", and does she-Lureen-ever "suspect". Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertantly, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.

Jack's response, that maybe Ennis ought to get out of there and move somewhere else, suggests that this is exactly how he understood the question, and being intimately knowlegeable about Ennis's fear, he offers the first suggestion that comes to his mind. That's our Jack, remember? "Ready, shoot, aim." He doesn't seem to quite grasp the signficance of what Ennis is asking/telling him. As one who struggled mightilyfor more than two decades with trying to keep exactly this secret, I cannot really see any equally plausible interpretation of just what Ennis is so afraid of other people knowing about him.

As for Ennis wanting a family, it is here that I think Ennis displays one of his most striking character flaws. He may indeed want a family, but he is unwilling to commit himself to making the sacrifices necessary to provide for them adequately, and spends all of his free vacation time-according to the story-on fishing trips with Jack, never with Alma or his daughters. He compromises his 'career' in doing so. This doesn't speak well of a sincere desire to be a good husband and father, at least in the ways which would count in his rural Wyoming culture. On the other hand, having a wife and kids is the best insurance he can provide himself and the outside world that he is not, in fact, gay/queer. They inadvertantly help him prop up his denial system, to their detriment. I'm not saying he doesn't love his wife and daughters, in his way, but he fails-or is unable-to give them priorty in his life. So, that's my two cents worth. 

 

I find this a very good point.  I am in agreement, but I have not thought of it this way previously. 


Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #112 on: Aug 14, 2006, 11:57 AM »
It's why in the scene where he tells Jack about his father father having taken him to see the dead rancher he uses the word " thing" - "this thing grabs hold of us". He's never able to confront head-on his deepest fears about himself, can't even begin to say that he thinks, or knows, he's attracted to men, or at least to one man. He thinks, or knows, he's not "normal" by the standards of the place and time where he livesand has no idea how to cope with that, though he knows it's a terrifying prospect. 

Offline dalemidex

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Gender: Male
  • Friend that's more words than you spoke in 2 weeks
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #113 on: Aug 14, 2006, 02:34 PM »
Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertently, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.

Hi proulxfan...glad to hear from you!  Yours is definitely a name from early days on this board that I recall respecting, and I'm glad to see you still around.

Anyway, back to the topic.  Your point of him asking if other people "know", and its larger connotation, is one I had not considered before.  But I really see your point, and I do think this suggests that by this point Ennis had an increase sense of self-awareness and self-identification.  Still probably something he couldn't deal with, couldn't accept and tried hard not to acknowledge at that point.  But I think by then Ennis was, in exceptionally guarded terms, indeed admitting something.

Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #114 on: Aug 14, 2006, 06:00 PM »
For me, it boils down to the conversation Ennis and Jack have at their next-to-last (in the film) camping trip, where Ennis asks Jack if things between Jack and Lureen are "normal", and does she-Lureen-ever "suspect". Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertantly, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.
As for Ennis wanting a family, it is here that I think Ennis displays one of his most striking character flaws. He may indeed want a family, but he is unwilling to commit himself to making the sacrifices necessary to provide for them adequately, and spends all of his free vacation time-according to the story-on fishing trips with Jack, never with Alma or his daughters. He compromises his 'career' in doing so. This doesn't speak well of a sincere desire to be a good husband and father, at least in the ways which would count in his rural Wyoming culture. On the other hand, having a wife and kids is the best insurance he can provide himself and the outside world that he is not, in fact, gay/queer. They inadvertantly help him prop up his denial system, to their detriment. I'm not saying he doesn't love his wife and daughters, in his way, but he fails-or is unable-to give them priorty in his life. So, that's my two cents worth. 
 

This is so good, proulxfan.  I always also thought that that scene where Ennis tells Jack he feels people "know" about him, is very telling.  He can admit to himself and to Jack, but still doesn't have quite the words.  Anyway, you said it very well, highlighting some important -- and so poignant -- things about the film, about Ennis:  Jack's response; Ennis and family.  Really a good interpretation.

Jeez -- he must feel SO strongly that he's queer, to feel he carries it like a sign around his neck that everybody can see, whether Jack's around or not.  He is so tortured with this, that the facade is so necessary.  So sad...

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline jesseanne21

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 3233
  • Gender: Female
  • Never enough time, never enough
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #115 on: Aug 14, 2006, 06:23 PM »
For me, it boils down to the conversation Ennis and Jack have at their next-to-last (in the film) camping trip, where Ennis asks Jack if things between Jack and Lureen are "normal", and does she-Lureen-ever "suspect". Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertantly, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.
As for Ennis wanting a family, it is here that I think Ennis displays one of his most striking character flaws. He may indeed want a family, but he is unwilling to commit himself to making the sacrifices necessary to provide for them adequately, and spends all of his free vacation time-according to the story-on fishing trips with Jack, never with Alma or his daughters. He compromises his 'career' in doing so. This doesn't speak well of a sincere desire to be a good husband and father, at least in the ways which would count in his rural Wyoming culture. On the other hand, having a wife and kids is the best insurance he can provide himself and the outside world that he is not, in fact, gay/queer. They inadvertantly help him prop up his denial system, to their detriment. I'm not saying he doesn't love his wife and daughters, in his way, but he fails-or is unable-to give them priorty in his life. So, that's my two cents worth. 
 

This is so good, proulxfan.  I always also thought that that scene where Ennis tells Jack he feels people "know" about him, is very telling.  He can admit to himself and to Jack, but still doesn't have quite the words.  Anyway, you said it very well, highlighting some important -- and so poignant -- things about the film, about Ennis:  Jack's response; Ennis and family.  Really a good interpretation.

Jeez -- he must feel SO strongly that he's queer, to feel he carries it like a sign around his neck that everybody can see, whether Jack's around or not.  He is so tortured with this, that the facade is so necessary.  So sad...

kathy

Don't forget, this scene comes not to long after his Thanksgiving fight with Alma.  Ennis thought he fooled Alma all those years and he must have panicked when he found out she knew about him and Jack.  And, he never knew that she had seen him kissing Jack at their reunion.  I always thougt he asked Jack if everything was okay with Lureen because he figured if Alma could figure it out, Lureen must be able to also.
[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #116 on: Aug 14, 2006, 11:33 PM »
Don't forget, this scene comes not to long after his Thanksgiving fight with Alma.  Ennis thought he fooled Alma all those years and he must have panicked when he found out she knew about him and Jack.  And, he never knew that she had seen him kissing Jack at their reunion.  I always thougt he asked Jack if everything was okay with Lureen because he figured if Alma could figure it out, Lureen must be able to also.


Aha, yes. you're so right.  This never really occurred to me before, that even after Alma confronts Ennis about Jack, he still doesn't know that she saw that kiss!  I wonder what he really felt, how he thought that  she knew, other than just that something was fishy about those fishing trips.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #117 on: Aug 15, 2006, 07:27 AM »

Ennis was certainly quite reckless at times.  He seems to swing between a devil-may-care attitude and one of some degree of paranoia.  I am not so sure whether this is an indication of repression, but I have seen such behavior in a number of people I have met who do seem to fit that description.

Whether or not Ennis is gay (and I do personally believe he is), the pattern of denial is quite classic.  Some gays go through endless justifications for their actions (that they are not truly gay because they only take on a certain role, do not fit according to a certain stereotype, etc...)  This  pattern of behavior is quite extreme in some cases.  In comparison to these, Ennis's ambivalence is not at all unrealistic.  Extreme as we may think it to be, fact is always more surprising than fiction.


Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #118 on: Aug 15, 2006, 09:26 AM »
I also think that Ennis wondered whether he was somehow giving something away without realising it or whether Alma had been dropping hints after the divorce because she suspected something. So he wanted to know if Lureen suspected the same and I thnik wondered whether Jack had been more successful than he had in keeping the secret. in reality, of course, it was evident to at least Randall that Jack was gay, and not apparently very obvious to anyone that Ennis was.

Offline jeffjoe

  • My name is Joe... Jeff Joe
  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1756
  • Gender: Male
  • The magic is in us here...
Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #119 on: Aug 15, 2006, 12:23 PM »
The reallity is.. he enjoy the moment.. well who will not. If he was or not gay he enjoy the Jack love
Nunca me alejo, mas allá de una mirada...