Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[tpe]

Loreen - I can understand why you would view Ennis' actions as cowardice.  When viewing the movie in 2009, it's hard to remember what America was like in 1975 when Ennis got divorced. 

According to the BBM short story, Ennis was 19 years of age in 1963, which means he was born in 1944.  In America in the 1940s through the 1960s homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder.  It was considered a perversion and a sin against God.  It wasn't until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association de-listed homosexuality as a mental disorder in their diagnostic nomenclature.

Not only was homosexuality considered a perversion, but homosexuals were often beaten and even killed for being gay.  Homosexuals moved away from rural areas and went to live in large cities for some measure of safety.  In large cities, gays were also beaten and ridiculed and received no protection under the law.  It wasn't until the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City when gays began to protest in large numbers and fight for their rights that they began to be protected under the law.  The Gay Rights movement mirrored the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s and the Feminists movement of the 1970s.

Today in 2009 it is still dangerous to be openly 'out' in rural America.  Hollywood is making it hip to be gay, but that acceptance is still slow to reach some places.

Ennis lived in a small, rural town.  There were no openly 'out' men around him.  There was no one he could talk to about his feelings.    He was alone and isolated.  Like most everyone, Ennis did the best that he could in the time and place he lived with the knowledge that he had.  If he had known better, he would have done better. 

True, but I wonder why Ennis never considered moving away to another place, as thousands of gay men did and continue to do since the 1950s.  To a certain extent, it was in his power to change certain things, but he didn't.  Not that this was unforgivable.  It is very understandable, given his set ways and his desire to be close to his children.  Nonetheless, it is still what I would call a failure of nerve.

[vedrana]

Well, it was a failure of nerve, to say the least... 

I is too scary to know how only one horrible experience can ruin whole life and the best chances for happiness... 

[vedrana]

True, but I wonder why Ennis never considered moving away to another place, as thousands of gay men did and continue to do since the 1950s.  To a certain extent, it was in his power to change certain things, but he didn't.  Not that this was unforgivable.  It is very understandable, given his set ways and his desire to be close to his children.  Nonetheless, it is still what I would call a failure of nerve.

... combine with the genetic stubbornness...

[tpe]

... combine with the genetic stubbornness...

Well, I would personally think that genetics could be a part of it.    But this is a bit tangential to the main topic.

Yes, I know you were just kidding. 

[jesseanne21]

True, but I wonder why Ennis never considered moving away to another place, as thousands of gay men did and continue to do since the 1950s.  To a certain extent, it was in his power to change certain things, but he didn't.  Not that this was unforgivable.  It is very understandable, given his set ways and his desire to be close to his children.  Nonetheless, it is still what I would call a failure of nerve.

TPE - if Ennis didn't have a 'failure of nerve' would we still be discussing the BBM SS and the movie 3 years after it's release?

If Ennis and Jack had met, had some relationship struggles and then lived the 'sweet life' that Jack spoke of, then everyone who read the short story or saw the movie would have said, "AWWWWW, that's so sweet," and moved on with their life.  BBM would have been just another love story movie. 

The enduring power of 'Romeo and Juliet' is the fact that Romeo and Juliet are meant to be together and they never are.  Such is the enduring power of BBM.  Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and everytime I see the movie some part of my crazy  mind thinks the ending will be different!

Some part of my mind expects:

When Ennis and Jack come down from Brokeback that Ennis will run after Jack's truck, waving his arms and say to Jack, "I just can't leave you, Bud."

When Ennis is marrying Alma that Ennis will hold up his hand and say, "I'm sorry but I just can't marry you Alma.  I'm in love with someone else."

When Ennis and Jack meet up after 4 years that Ennis will say, "I"m sorry I let you get away Jack, but I'm not going to let you go again."

When Jack comes to visit Ennis after his divorce that Ennis will say to Jack, "Finally, we can be together."

When Ennis breaks down after his fight with Jack that Ennis will say, "I just can't take this anymore, Jack.  I can't live without you anymore."

But, every time I watch the movie, it remains the same...Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and Ennis can't do it.

[vedrana]

TPE - if Ennis didn't have a 'failure of nerve' would we still be discussing the BBM SS and the movie 3 years after it's release?

If Ennis and Jack had met, had some relationship struggles and then lived the 'sweet life' that Jack spoke of, then everyone who read the short story or saw the movie would have said, "AWWWWW, that's so sweet," and moved on with their life.  BBM would have been just another love story movie. 

The enduring power of 'Romeo and Juliet' is the fact that Romeo and Juliet are meant to be together and they never are.  Such is the enduring power of BBM.  Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and everytime I see the movie some part of my crazy  mind thinks the ending will be different!

Some part of my mind expects:

When Ennis and Jack come down from Brokeback that Ennis will run after Jack's truck, waving his arms and say to Jack, "I just can't leave you, Bud."

When Ennis is marrying Alma that Ennis will hold up his hand and say, "I'm sorry but I just can't marry you Alma.  I'm in love with someone else."

When Ennis and Jack meet up after 4 years that Ennis will say, "I"m sorry I let you get away Jack, but I'm not going to let you go again."

When Jack comes to visit Ennis after his divorce that Ennis will say to Jack, "Finally, we can be together."

When Ennis breaks down after his fight with Jack that Ennis will say, "I just can't take this anymore, Jack.  I can't live without you anymore."

But, every time I watch the movie, it remains the same...Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and Ennis can't do it.

  Yup! Me too!

Great post!

[tpe]

TPE - if Ennis didn't have a 'failure of nerve' would we still be discussing the BBM SS and the movie 3 years after it's release?

If Ennis and Jack had met, had some relationship struggles and then lived the 'sweet life' that Jack spoke of, then everyone who read the short story or saw the movie would have said, "AWWWWW, that's so sweet," and moved on with their life.  BBM would have been just another love story movie. 

The enduring power of 'Romeo and Juliet' is the fact that Romeo and Juliet are meant to be together and they never are.  Such is the enduring power of BBM.  Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and everytime I see the movie some part of my crazy  mind thinks the ending will be different!

Some part of my mind expects:

When Ennis and Jack come down from Brokeback that Ennis will run after Jack's truck, waving his arms and say to Jack, "I just can't leave you, Bud."

When Ennis is marrying Alma that Ennis will hold up his hand and say, "I'm sorry but I just can't marry you Alma.  I'm in love with someone else."

When Ennis and Jack meet up after 4 years that Ennis will say, "I"m sorry I let you get away Jack, but I'm not going to let you go again."

When Jack comes to visit Ennis after his divorce that Ennis will say to Jack, "Finally, we can be together."

When Ennis breaks down after his fight with Jack that Ennis will say, "I just can't take this anymore, Jack.  I can't live without you anymore."

But, every time I watch the movie, it remains the same...Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and Ennis can't do it.

As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution.   

But acceptance of the tragic flaw of a great character does not mean that the motivations that drive the protagonist must always be explainable.  Hence, it is right and even fruitful to question or critique the nature behind Ennis's inability to make changes that would have perhaps bettered his life, because such questions give us a better understanding of the tragic flaw so central to his character and the story.

Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so?  Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?

I think all of us here would say that there was something deeper -- what I can the "failure of nerve."  It is at the center of the tragic flaw in Ennis's character, and not to acknowlege if would be to misunderstand why BBM is such a great tragedy in the first place.

It is a tragedy first and foremost because it was to a certain extent in their power to right things for both of them.  And as in the case of Romeo and Juliet, who were unable to see past an end to the family feud, Ennis's inability to see past his own fears is at the heart of his own undoing.  But it is because of percisely this that he becomes a great tragic figure.

Sorry for the extended emphasis in the last part of the above reply! 

[vedrana]

As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution.   

But acceptance of the tragic flaw of a great character does not mean that the motivations that drive the protagonist must always be explainable.  Hence, it is right and even fruitful to question or critique the nature behind Ennis's inability to make changes that would have perhaps bettered his life, because such questions give us a better understanding of the tragic flaw so central to his character and the story.

Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so?  Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?

I think all of us here would say that there was something deeper -- what I can the "failure of nerve."  It is at the center of the tragic flaw in Ennis's character, and not to acknowlege if would be to misunderstand why BBM is such a great tragedy in the first place.

It is a tragedy first and foremost because it was to a certain extent in their power to right things for both of them.  And as in the case of Romeo and Juliet, who were unable to see past an end to the family feud, Ennis's inability to see past his own fears is at the heart of his own undoing.  But it is because of percisely this that he becomes a great tragic figure.

Sorry for the extended emphasis in the last part of the above reply! 

This discussion is good and welcome. I enjoy every new insight of the story and others' POV, in fact most of the time I am on this side of the forum.

But sometimes I also want to make things simple - Ennis in my mind just took one of so many chances that Jack offered to him and they lived happily ever after. Coz I hate sad endings - H A T E!

And now again I have to go round and admit that had there been no so tragic end in this most beautiful love story, it would've never been so attractive.... Ennis's refusal is almost annoying for the viewer, make me/us want to shake his shoulder and tell him: Wake up! This is your life passing away, and you still sleep. Take your chances! Go for it!

But Ennis sleeps right up to the very end, leaving us so dissapointed and sad, but also make us want for more watching, talking, crying.... It is a vicious circle we're in!

Hm... I even don't know what I wanted to say, but that's pretty much it!

[jesseanne21]

As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution.   

But acceptance of the tragic flaw of a great character does not mean that the motivations that drive the protagonist must always be explainable.  Hence, it is right and even fruitful to question or critique the nature behind Ennis's inability to make changes that would have perhaps bettered his life, because such questions give us a better understanding of the tragic flaw so central to his character and the story.

Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so?  Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?

I think all of us here would say that there was something deeper -- what I can the "failure of nerve."  It is at the center of the tragic flaw in Ennis's character, and not to acknowlege if would be to misunderstand why BBM is such a great tragedy in the first place.

It is a tragedy first and foremost because it was to a certain extent in their power to right things for both of them.  And as in the case of Romeo and Juliet, who were unable to see past an end to the family feud, Ennis's inability to see past his own fears is at the heart of his own undoing.  But it is because of percisely this that he becomes a great tragic figure.

Sorry for the extended emphasis in the last part of the above reply! 

You are so right!

As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution.   

Me, too!

Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so?  Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?

One of the reasons I LOVE Ennis is his humanness!  He is just like everyone else...sometimes and in some ways WE ALL are too afraid to admit what we really want and go for it.   It is so sad that he wasted the time he could have been with Jack because of his fears.

[tpe]

You are so right!

As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution.   

Me, too!

Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so?  Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?

One of the reasons I LOVE Ennis is his humanness!  He is just like everyone else...sometimes and in some ways WE ALL are too afraid to admit what we really want and go for it.   It is so sad that he wasted the time he could have been with Jack because of his fears.

Which is why I think we empathize with him -- and also why he disturbs and moves us so much all at the same time.    The aspects about him that disturb and sometimes even anger us paradoxically brings him closer to our shared human experience.   And yes, even the sadness...

That there are certain scenes in the movie we may dislike or even abhor shouldn't bother us or change how we view the movieas a whole.  In fact, it should increase our appreciation of BBN as a work of art, and as a mirror in which all of us can see something that is within each of us.