Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[tpe]

I have to admit that I don't understand why Alma put her beg on the shoulder... as if she wants to go out? Knife&fork? 

I feel the bag on her sholder was just an total unconcious nervous gesture on her part. Alma was still in shock, like she had just been punched in the stomach. She knew she was'nt invited to the party after what she'd witnessed. She also needed a smoke, though I never pictured her as a smoker. In any case, Ennis had that covered too. Asking him to  bring her back a pack of cigarettes was just an effort to bring Ennis back home sooner,... no such luck...

I agree with aintfoolin.  Also, it may have been a subsconscious will to put herself between them.  I thought it added greatly to the realiam of the scene -- the confusion and the facade of nonchalance.

[cnr1949]

As I watched that scene where Alma sees the men kissing, I wondered how many women in the audience were suddenly putting two and two together and feeling a stomach-emptying kick in their own stomachs. I felt such great anguish for Alma and for all the other women who have been "used" by gay men to hide their true nature - and the shock is that I am associated with a church that still recommends that gay men and lesbian ladies marry someone of the opposite sex. Does such a scheme originate with God or the devil!!! and yet so many heterosexual men cannot see the hypocrisy in this - and how it turns women into unsuspecting guinea pigs. My mother was one step ahead of such religious leaders - she once suggested that I marry a lesbian - so at least everything would look OK - we'd never have to be intimate.

Poor Alma - I thought she played the scene just perfectly - putting a bag over her shoulder as though to go out seems logical to me - her first reaction might be to run, RUN, escape from what she had just seen - to come back later and find out it was all an illusion and her life could go on.

The poverty really bothered me too - I suppose people live like that - in a few rooms over a laundry with the cheapest of furniture and everything a bit of a mess - I thought the interiors were well done.

[tpe]

Welcome to the forum, cnr1949.

You must understand that gay men are as much the victims as the women.  For much of history, they have been made to confrom not only in marriage but in so many other things.  If your life is at stake, a loveless marriage is a small price to pay.  Don't forget that Ennis was in fear for his life, and rightfully so. 

Moreover, we must also consider the possibility that Ennis at the time of the marriage really thought that he was in love with Alma.  The deception was not just on Alma, you know.

It does not excuse the falsehood, but one cannot condemn it so easily -- given that they did not have that much of a choice.

[vedrana]

Moreover, we must also consider the possibility that Ennis at the time of the marriage really thought that he was in love with Alma.  The deception was not just on Alma, you know.

It does not excuse the falsehood, but one cannot condemn it so easily -- given that they did not have that much of a choice.

I agree on this one tpe!   

Ennis wasn't aware of the suffering he was going to taste in the marriage, especially during so many years after the reunion kiss and the reunion sex in the motel, which clearly showed him that his life with Alma is a pale shadow of the passion he had for Jack. At the time he had married Alma, he couldn't possibly imagine what was going to happen. 

[tpe]

I agree on this one tpe!   

Ennis wasn't aware of the suffering he was going to taste in the marriage, especially during so many years after the reunion kiss and the reunion sex in the motel, which clearly showed him that his life with Alma is a pale shadow of the passion he had for Jack. At the time he had married Alma, he couldn't possibly imagine what was going to happen. 

Even to the last, I think part of the reason why Ennis didn't want a divorce was his wanting a sense of "normalcy" -- something that family life gave him, inspite of all the falsehoods and pretenses.  I think his tears during the divorce proceedings were truly genuine (as well as Alma's).  I think to the very end, a part of each of them wanted things to work out.  This is what makes the divorce scene a bit unpleasant to watch.

 

[vedrana]

Even to the last, I think part of the reason why Ennis didn't want a divorce was his wanting a sense of "normalcy" -- something that family life gave him, inspite of all the falsehoods and pretenses.  I think his tears during the divorce proceedings were truly genuine (as well as Alma's).  I think to the very end, a part of each of them wanted things to work out.  This is what makes the divorce scene a bit unpleasant to watch.

This is for sure - I mean about their tears and wish to work things out!

The only thing I would chalenge here is about the reason for staying in the marriage. Part of it IS because it's normal, but part of it is (as always) a resentance to break something that lasted so long time, with 2 children in between, something that stared as a really good intention with love between two people. The reason to end that should've been big one. For Alma was the neverending lack of money and for her unbearable "fishing" trips! And for Ennis was his escaping from others into himself, into the imaginary world that only he and Jack existed!

[tpe]

This is for sure - I mean about their tears and wish to work things out!

The only thing I would chalenge here is about the reason for staying in the marriage. Part of it IS because it's normal, but part of it is (as always) a resentance to break something that lasted so long time, with 2 children in between, something that stared as a really good intention with love between two people. The reason to end that should've been big one. For Alma was the neverending lack of money and for her unbearable "fishing" trips! And for Ennis was his escaping from others into himself, into the imaginary world that only he and Jack existed!

You certainly make a good point here.  There is a saying: habit is stronger than hate.  And there is such a thing as inertia -- a dread of change even if change might bring about better opportunities.

For Alma, I think the end vame when she lost all her respect for her husband.  But you are right -- there are practical and emotional considerations that finally pushed her over the edge.

[vedrana]

You certainly make a good point here.  There is a saying: habit is stronger than hate.  And there is such a thing as inertia -- a dread of change even if change might bring about better opportunities.

For Alma, I think the end vame when she lost all her respect for her husband.  But you are right -- there are practical and emotional considerations that finally pushed her over the edge.

I have a feeling that Alma loved Ennis even after divorce. If not, she would've never react so emotionally when brought up Jack Nasty during Thanksgiving supper! She was hurt, she lost her respect for him, but IMO she still loved him. There was no hate between them, only lack of a tiniest reason to stay together. That makes the divorcing scene extremely anxious! 

[FlwrChild]

I think that cnr1949 was acknowledging that everyone suffers in these marriages (correct me if I'm wrong) and that it is not just a matter of gay men taking advantage of unsuspecting women but that they're being pressured (even today) to marry in this way. And as tpe and loreen have pointed out, there are so many things that went into Ennis' decision to marry Alma and to stay with her. I agree that he was probably trying desperately to achieve a state of normalcy, not just for appearances but for himself. In the beginning, I think he really thought that he could turn his back on that magical summer, leave it behind somehow and make a life with Alma. But even before Jack returned, it was clear that Ennis was unable to do this, and once they were reunited any hope for normalcy with Alma was dashed. It was undoubtedly easier for both of them, for a time, to stay in an unhappy marriage rather than upset the status quo. There was, after all, no good solution for Ennis, as he believed so strongly that they could never be together, and there were children to be considered. For Alma, she probably held on for a long time to the hope that as upsetting as what she had seen was to her, it wouldn't impact her marriage overall and was something they/she could overcome. I liked the description in the SS of how their marriage came to an end:

"A slow corrosion worked between Ennis and Alma, no real trouble, just widening water.....Her resentment opened out a little every year: the embrace she had glimpsed, Ennis' fishing trips once or twice a year and never a vacation with her and the girls....put her in a long, slow dive..."


You can almost feel her weariness as she finally realizes that this is as good as her life with Ennis will ever get and it just isn't enough. There were good intentions on both sides when the marriage started, which makes it that much sadder that it all ended so bitterly.

I can't say that it's a scene I disliked because it was so well acted by both of them, but I have to admit that the courthouse scene for their divorce struck me hard, as you could see the pain that both of them were going through.

Amazing film, amazing layers.

[tpe]

Thanks loreen and flwrchild!

loreen, sometimes, I wonder about Alma after the divorce.  I sometimes think her bitterness overpowered any amount of love she had left for Ennis.  If there was a love left in the end, I would perhaps call it the dregs of love, which is bitter beyond imagining.

flwrchild, I think the word" "corrosion" goes a long way in describing why we dislike the scenes that show the deterioration of their marriage.  It wears us down as much as it wore them down...

[FlwrChild]

Beautifully put, tpe. I think you're right about that.

[vedrana]

Thanks loreen and flwrchild!

loreen, sometimes, I wonder about Alma after the divorce.  I sometimes think her bitterness overpowered any amount of love she had left for Ennis.  If there was a love left in the end, I would perhaps call it the dregs of love, which is bitter beyond imagining.

You may likely be right on this one.... bitterness was probably too strong to extract any love from her. 

[myprivatejack]

However,I think she was bitter because she loved still Ennis.Sometimes-more often than we believe...-we hate who has left us because we love them still.

[vedrana]

However,I think she was bitter because she loved still Ennis.Sometimes-more often than we believe...-we hate who has left us because we love them still.

When I think of this over and over again it is really difficult to distinguish whether their conversation in the kitchen had any feelings left. The reason for her emotional words can be love, but also can be her wish to hurt him as he hurt her with Jack Nasty! And I even don't think that she hated him. I think that she was too hurt over the years, and it made her as bitter as Jack in the end.

Hm... so sweet Ennis made so many people bitter...

Anway, Ennis didn't leave her, I believe that they had an agreement that there's no reason to stay together. I personally see no real hatered, but most probably her love was shattered by an enormous bitterness. Did any of her love for Ennis left, it's difficult to know!

[nagsheadsea412]

The scene I disliked the most -hands down -was when a joyful Jack sings his way up to see Ennis after the divorce happy as a clam only to be shot down by paranoid you know who...spends a brief moment, says hello to the girls and turns right around for the long journey back...crying as he goes...surely there could have been a more plausible scenario...watched it one time and never again....senseless in my opinion

[vedrana]

The scene I disliked the most -hands down -was when a joyful Jack sings his way up to see Ennis after the divorce happy as a clam only to be shot down by paranoid you know who...spends a brief moment, says hello to the girls and turns right around for the long journey back...crying as he goes...surely there could have been a more plausible scenario...watched it one time and never again....senseless in my opinion

nagsheadsea412  ,

Oh, this scene was mentioned here, so many times I assume , as really was one of the most unpleasant scenes in BBM! Starting from so long and joyful Jack's trip, trough Ennis' refusal to accomodate him (at least), to his tears and mexican male prostitute! Really anxious and hard to watch! :\'(

[FlwrChild]

I agree. 

Many of the songs on the soundtrack made me cry, but for a long time King of the Road was a song I couldn't even listen to. I had to fast forward past it because it just killed me how happy Jack was on the trip up, so sure all his dreams were coming true, with no idea that his heart was about to be broken in a million pieces. I just couldn't do it. I knew I was healing when I could listen to the song again without bursting into tears.

[vedrana]

I agree. 

Many of the songs on the soundtrack made me cry, but for a long time King of the Road was a song I couldn't even listen to. I had to fast forward past it because it just killed me how happy Jack was on the trip up, so sure all his dreams were coming true, with no idea that his heart was about to be broken in a million pieces. I just couldn't do it. I knew I was healing when I could listen to the song again without bursting into tears.

"Healing" is the right word! After BBM, we all needed healing! :\'(

[tpe]

You may likely be right on this one.... bitterness was probably too strong to extract any love from her. 

However,I think she was bitter because she loved still Ennis.Sometimes-more often than we believe...-we hate who has left us because we love them still.

I know from what I have observed in real life that the greater you love somebody, the greater the capacity to hate and not to forgive when things fall apart.  That's because it hurts so much.

But I see MPJ's point nonetheless: that you couldn't hate if you no longer cared.  This too, I have seen in real life.  But bitterness I think outlasts hate, IMO, and it may very well be that Alma was simply bitter to the very end.

 
 

[tpe]

The scene I disliked the most -hands down -was when a joyful Jack sings his way up to see Ennis after the divorce happy as a clam only to be shot down by paranoid you know who...spends a brief moment, says hello to the girls and turns right around for the long journey back...crying as he goes...surely there could have been a more plausible scenario...watched it one time and never again....senseless in my opinion

Yes, I think I have said before that I find this a "heartless" (even cruel) scene.  It is especially hard to watch if you put yourself in jack's shoes.

[atalley]

   I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew".  Did she love Monroe?  I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.

[vedrana]

  I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew".  Did she love Monroe?  I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.

Atalley, I was already talking about Monroe somewhere else- for me he was only a secure future for her and girls! IMO

[myprivatejack]

  I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew".  Did she love Monroe?  I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.

Yes,Anita,Alma was still in love more with the idea of that Ennis she had met than with the real Ennis.But she was still in love with him,or at least,he loved him more than a simple ex husband.Only this situation can explain by itself the rage and bitterness she felt and more still if we notice that she felt against her "rival",Jack Nasty.Look how she never insults Ennis directly,but Jack,as if this one was the real guilty of her broken marriage.This is meaningful,no?.

Atalley, I was already talking about Monroe somewhere else- for me he was only a secure future for her and girls! IMO

I agree with you too,Loreen.I have never seen Monroe as a real love for Alma,but a substitute for Ennis.She is a woman educated in the idea of being a good wife and mother who depends on the safety of a man at home,both emotionally...and finantially.And,moreover,she had to show Ennis she was able to live a life of her own without him.

[tpe]

  I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew".  Did she love Monroe?  I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.

But did this mean that she didn't in fact love Ennis, but an image of Ennis that she created in her own mind? 

As to Monroe, personally, I think Alma loved someone who would be a husband to her and a father to her children. 

Her devaluation of Ennis as a husband and a father is what makes the "downhill" scenes in their marriage unpleasant to watch.

[vedrana]

But did this mean that she didn't in fact love Ennis, but an image of Ennis that she created in her own mind? 

As to Monroe, personally, I think Alma loved someone who would be a husband to her and a father to her children. 

Her devaluation of Ennis as a husband and a father is what makes the "downhill" scenes in their marriage unpleasant to watch.

We all fall in love with an image of someone, which shows up to be less or more false... but false! The less it is false, the longer love will last.

As for Monroe - you could be right here considering that Alma have had her passion for Ennis when younger. Now she needed to be secure in the marriage, and Monroe was the one who could give that security to her. Up to a point, we could call it love. But definitely not the same as she has for Ennis. This time was more selfish love than a flame.

I can agree that the corrosion of their marriage was result of Ennis' attitude towards Alma and their marriage, but I always see Ennis as a good father. Not the best one, surely not perfect, but good! It is just his and Alma's relationship that gave us the most unpleasant scenes of the movie.

[LuvJackNasty]

But did this mean that she didn't in fact love Ennis, but an image of Ennis that she created in her own mind? 

I think she loved Ennis once upon a time. The Ennis that she saw a future with, the one she fell in love with, made a family and a life with. The one she could trust and the one who hadn’t yet broken her heart. Not an image she conjured up, but a very real experience.

As to Monroe, personally, I think Alma loved someone who would be a husband to her and a father to her children. 

I think she loved Monroe. There’s not a lot given to suggest her true feelings either way. But I don’t see why she couldn’t love him. True, some people move on to the next “best thing” because they don’t want to be alone and that could very well be the case. But I’d hate to shackle her to a life of only having one person to truly love in her life, especially one who did her wrong (intentionally or not)- kind of depressing to think about. It’s very hopeful, to me, to think that she could get over all of that pain and learn to give her heart again; much in the same way I hope Ennis has that same redemption later on after Jack dies.

Her devaluation of Ennis as a husband and a father is what makes the "downhill" scenes in their marriage unpleasant to watch.

I agree, it is unpleasant but she had every reason to devalue him - actually she didn’t need to do that - he did that on his own when he broke his vows. And again, I don't think he ever intentionally hurt her, although by not considering the impact of his actions on her he was, in effect, devaluing her long before she began to lose faith in him. There are a lot of dynamics in place there, resulting in Alma feeling the way she did. And having been there, I recognize those feelings and it's hard to express just how devalued she must have felt herself during those years while that slow corrosion was eating her up.

As always just my $0.02 

[FlwrChild]

Great posts. 


I agree that there was little to let us know just how Alma felt about Monroe, but it would be nice to think that she found some happiness later, wouldn't it? In that context, her reaction to having Ennis in her home at Thanksgiving would be much more about her unresolved feelings toward him than how they might connect in any way to how she felt about her life with Monroe. The look on her face during dinner would surely chill anyone who happened to see it in that moment.

And yes, I agree that Alma was hopeful in the beginning and became understandably hardened through the years as she realized how much lower she ranked with her husband than she'd once thought and hoped for. Couldn't have been a pleasant fall for her.

I think what makes the kitchen scene so hard for me to watch was twofold. First, seeing Ennis get increasingly uncomfortable as he realized where the conversation was going. He was so tightly wound about this that the very idea that she might know something was tearing him up inside. And then to see the rage that he was capable of projecting toward her, not just for what she said about Jack but what her very knowledge of him might mean to him was both unsettling and sad to me. I think that he was just as appalled at himself as he left too. That was one of those moments that I felt we were able to gaze directly on some of his personal demons.

[tpe]

We all fall in love with an image of someone, which shows up to be less or more false... but false! The less it is false, the longer love will last.

A relatively pessimistic POV, but certainly has more than a bit of truth.

I personally tend to think that people simply become more comfortable with each other as time goes on (or not), and this replaces passionate/romantic love.

As for Monroe - you could be right here considering that Alma have had her passion for Ennis when younger. Now she needed to be secure in the marriage, and Monroe was the one who could give that security to her. Up to a point, we could call it love. But definitely not the same as she has for Ennis. This time was more selfish love than a flame.

And to Monroe's credit, it did seem that he did have a genuine affection for Alma.  I don't know if I would call it "selfish".  Perhaps an older, more mature, more pragmatic kind of love?

I can agree that the corrosion of their marriage was result of Ennis' attitude towards Alma and their marriage, but I always see Ennis as a good father. Not the best one, surely not perfect, but good! It is just his and Alma's relationship that gave us the most unpleasant scenes of the movie.

To a certain extent, I thought that he was good in that he really loved his daughters.  But he made so many things get in the way of giving them that love more fully.  That's his problem, IMO.

[tpe]

I think she loved Ennis once upon a time. The Ennis that she saw a future with, the one she fell in love with, made a family and a life with. The one she could trust and the one who hadn’t yet broken her heart. Not an image she conjured up, but a very real experience.

Yet I sometimes think that she was in love with an Ennis that wasn't particularly his true self -- more like a projection of what she made him out to be.  Could the experience have been an illusion?  I wondered whether she would have fallen out of love in the long run in any case, even if she didn't catch the 2 of them with Jack.  Also, it would seem that even with the lifestyle on lonely ranch, she didn't seem to have agreed that much with Ennis...

I think she loved Monroe. There’s not a lot given to suggest her true feelings either way. But I don’t see why she couldn’t love him. True, some people move on to the next “best thing” because they don’t want to be alone and that could very well be the case. But I’d hate to shackle her to a life of only having one person to truly love in her life, especially one who did her wrong (intentionally or not)- kind of depressing to think about. It’s very hopeful, to me, to think that she could get over all of that pain and learn to give her heart again; much in the same way I hope Ennis has that same redemption later on after Jack dies.

I think so too.  I think she loved the fact that Monroe was much more stable.  And it did seem that he loved her, and I think this mattered a great deal to her -- to be loved.

I agree, it is unpleasant but she had every reason to devalue him - actually she didn’t need to do that - he did that on his own when he broke his vows. And again, I don't think he ever intentionally hurt her, although by not considering the impact of his actions on her he was, in effect, devaluing her long before she began to lose faith in him. There are a lot of dynamics in place there, resulting in Alma feeling the way she did. And having been there, I recognize those feelings and it's hard to express just how devalued she must have felt herself during those years while that slow corrosion was eating her up.

As always just my $0.02 

Interesting.  But the difference was that the whole experience made her much much more bitter than Ennis was -- at least on the surface.  Or is this not really accurate?

[tpe]

Great posts. 


I agree that there was little to let us know just how Alma felt about Monroe, but it would be nice to think that she found some happiness later, wouldn't it? In that context, her reaction to having Ennis in her home at Thanksgiving would be much more about her unresolved feelings toward him than how they might connect in any way to how she felt about her life with Monroe. The look on her face during dinner would surely chill anyone who happened to see it in that moment.

Yes.  I would think that the marriage with Alma did her plenty of good.  And to a real extent, it gave the children a semblance of family life that was perhaps a bit more "normal"?

And yes, I agree that Alma was hopeful in the beginning and became understandably hardened through the years as she realized how much lower she ranked with her husband than she'd once thought and hoped for. Couldn't have been a pleasant fall for her.

I think what makes the kitchen scene so hard for me to watch was twofold. First, seeing Ennis get increasingly uncomfortable as he realized where the conversation was going. He was so tightly wound about this that the very idea that she might know something was tearing him up inside. And then to see the rage that he was capable of projecting toward her, not just for what she said about Jack but what her very knowledge of him might mean to him was both unsettling and sad to me. I think that he was just as appalled at himself as he left too. That was one of those moments that I felt we were able to gaze directly on some of his personal demons.

"Hardening" is a good way to describe it.  I don't think that she was by nature bitter.  I felt that she was very affectionate dep inside.  This is why the Thanksgiving scene was quite distasteful -- you see Alma and Ennis turned into people they really are not.  In the case of Alma, I don't think it was in her nature to be so confrontational.