Author Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)  (Read 510087 times)

BlueMountain

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #930 on: Feb 17, 2009, 04:30 AM »
Well, he did introduced him to Jr and Jenny, but that was all. After that he let him go broken heart... :\'(


Oh yes I forgot about that part! :P
But he should of let him stay!!! :\'(

vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #931 on: Feb 17, 2009, 05:00 AM »
Oh yes I forgot about that part! :P
But he should of let him stay!!! :\'(

Yes, I believe that it is one of the most unpleasant scenes in the movie for we saw the growing paranoia in Ennis and completely devastated Jack who just figured out in the most cruel way that Ennis's fears are ruling over his love. Really unpleasant and sad!


Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #932 on: Feb 17, 2009, 08:59 AM »
How much I would have loved it if it were all a bad dream! and Ennis awoke and came to the realization that Jack was his everything, and they got their ranch, lived together, and admitted there feelings... but that's how I would have loved it but like Tpe had said, if it were a happier ending, we wouldn't have been affected... We wouldn't have thought so deeply on it all, but it's still rather hard to accept it.

Yes, to have pictured it as a bad dream would have been too contrived, and less memorable, IMO.  ;)

Am I too much a sucker for tragedy?  I do admit that I feel tragedy has a deeper effect on us -- probably because such circumstances mirror the hard truths about life that we all come up against one time or another.


vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #933 on: Feb 17, 2009, 09:11 AM »
Yes, to have pictured it as a bad dream would have been too contrived, and less memorable, IMO.  ;)

Am I too much a sucker for tragedy?  I do admit that I feel tragedy has a deeper effect on us -- probably because such circumstances mirror the hard truths about life that we all come up against one time or another.

This is the truth, but still... I just like to imagine them together in my heart and that makes me almost happy! I live like Ennis - in
some open space to be able to bear the pain... :(


Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #934 on: Feb 17, 2009, 09:13 AM »
This is the truth, but still... I just like to imagine them together in my heart and that makes me almost happy! I live like Ennis - in
some open space to be able to bear the pain... :(

What I can say is that in spite of the tragedy, they were in truth happy to have found each other.  Even though the happiness weas not perfect, they were indeed happy.


vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #935 on: Feb 17, 2009, 09:20 AM »
What I can say is that in spite of the tragedy, they were in truth happy to have found each other.  Even though the happiness weas not perfect, they were indeed happy.

Yes. And the greater the happiness was, the sadder is the lost of it. :\'(

The old (Jewish?) proverb says - the worst thing is to have and then not to have. (I translated it so stupidly, but I think you'll understand) :(

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #936 on: Feb 17, 2009, 09:27 AM »
Yes. And the greater the happiness was, the sadder is the lost of it. :\'(

The old (Jewish?) proverb says - the worst thing is to have and then not to have. (I translated it so stupidly, but I think you'll understand) :(

They certainly go nad in hand.  But the greater risk does not deter us in our search for greater happiness...


vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #937 on: Feb 17, 2009, 11:39 AM »
They certainly go nad in hand.  But the greater risk does not deter us in our search for greater happiness...

That is true. Had Jack known for sure, I think that he would've taken the risk. :(
.. in fact then it wouldn't be a risk, I mean if he had known for sure...

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #938 on: Feb 18, 2009, 08:43 AM »
That is true. Had Jack known for sure, I think that he would've taken the risk. :(
.. in fact then it wouldn't be a risk, I mean if he had known for sure...

Hmmm.  To be sure, Jack always took risks -- some of them were calculated, but others were quite reckless.  This recklessness is sometimes very painful to watch, especially because we aslo internally fear for him.


Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #939 on: Feb 18, 2009, 10:30 AM »
Hmmm.  To be sure, Jack always took risks -- some of them were calculated, but others were quite reckless.  This recklessness is sometimes very painful to watch, especially because we aslo internally fear for him.


hmm agreed... :-\\

Offline Lobsel-Vith

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #940 on: Feb 18, 2009, 10:34 AM »
Hmmm.  To be sure, Jack always took risks -- some of them were calculated, but others were quite reckless.  This recklessness is sometimes very painful to watch, especially because we aslo internally fear for him.



This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :(  When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #941 on: Feb 18, 2009, 10:44 AM »
This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :(  When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.
Yes,maybe if he hadn't gone with Randall,the direction he had taken would have been different.But,as a matter of fact,this risky option came from another option that was very meditated in his life; the possibility,a hundred times broken,of living with Ennis.He didn't act in a much riskier way until there was no horizon for both of us together...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
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vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #942 on: Feb 18, 2009, 02:43 PM »
This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :(  When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.
Yes,maybe if he hadn't gone with Randall,the direction he had taken would have been different.But,as a matter of fact,this risky option came from another option that was very meditated in his life; the possibility,a hundred times broken,of living with Ennis.He didn't act in a much riskier way until there was no horizon for both of us together...

LV, I had the same urge and I felt the same! Especially cos I didn't like the idea of Jack having an affair with that Randall character which finally led to the most ultimate tragedy. :\'(

On the other hand, I never resented anything to Jack. He did it in his most despair and lonely times of realization that sweet life with Ennis is as distant as it has always been. My poor Jack!  :\'(

Offline trekfan

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #943 on: Feb 18, 2009, 06:35 PM »
Yes. And the greater the happiness was, the sadder is the lost of it. :\'(

The old (Jewish?) proverb says - the worst thing is to have and then not to have. (I translated it so stupidly, but I think you'll understand) :(

he should never have let Jack go,  in the state he was in he could have died right then and there.   He should have made him stay.  wait until he had to take his daughters back home.


Aren't we at the stage these days when it just doesn't ... matter? It's a story of love and it's a story between two people. If people can't get over that and just accept it as a story, then that's their problem. I'm big enough and brave enough to do it. - Heath Ledger on doing BBM

vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #944 on: Feb 19, 2009, 04:11 AM »
he should never have let Jack go,  in the state he was in he could have died right then and there.   He should have made him stay.  wait until he had to take his daughters back home.

Or even go with three of them out to eat and have fun. But the fear paralyzed all his reasoning and a common sense - cos none wold let a person who was driving for 14 hours, go away without having a rest.

In the scene is obvious how Jack's hope sinks - from the moment he got out of the truck and warm hug, through introducing with the girls, to facing the stiffed Ennis's face and realization that his hopes were in wane... dear Jack! :\'(

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #945 on: Feb 19, 2009, 08:36 AM »
hmm agreed... :-\\

This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :(  When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.

Yes,maybe if he hadn't gone with Randall,the direction he had taken would have been different.But,as a matter of fact,this risky option came from another option that was very meditated in his life; the possibility,a hundred times broken,of living with Ennis.He didn't act in a much riskier way until there was no horizon for both of us together...

I would say that a lot of the unpleasant feelings engendered by some of the scenes is that it goes against the grain of how we perceive their "true" characters.  In the case of Randall, it doesn't help that we get to know very littel about him, and so we are not especially sympathetic to him. 

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #946 on: Feb 19, 2009, 08:42 AM »
he should never have let Jack go,  in the state he was in he could have died right then and there.   He should have made him stay.  wait until he had to take his daughters back home.

Or even go with three of them out to eat and have fun. But the fear paralyzed all his reasoning and a common sense - cos none wold let a person who was driving for 14 hours, go away without having a rest.

In the scene is obvious how Jack's hope sinks - from the moment he got out of the truck and warm hug, through introducing with the girls, to facing the stiffed Ennis's face and realization that his hopes were in wane... dear Jack! :\'(

He must have thought that the introduction to the girls was a good sign.  It onlu serves to increase the inevitable disappointment.
« Last Edit: Feb 19, 2009, 09:08 AM by tpe »

Offline Lobsel-Vith

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #947 on: Feb 19, 2009, 10:40 AM »
he should never have let Jack go,  in the state he was in he could have died right then and there.   He should have made him stay.  wait until he had to take his daughters back home.

Yes! That would have made things so nice... I really hate how he just tells him basically to go... I mean, sure his girls are there, but he will be able to visit with them! He gets them for the weekend, and doesn't Jack usually stay for a week anyway? That would have been five days they would have had together!


He must have thought that the introduction to the girls was a good sign.  It onlu serves to increase the inevitable disappointment.

Oh gosh, I didn't notice this! That Jack thought maybe since he was being introduced to Ennis' daughters that it meant Ennis was being more open about it...  :\'( Oh, poor Jack! and with him driving back all by himself... That was so heartbreaking.
...rains will pour down, waves will crash around - but you will be safe, in my arms.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #948 on: Feb 19, 2009, 10:54 AM »
Yes! That would have made things so nice... I really hate how he just tells him basically to go... I mean, sure his girls are there, but he will be able to visit with them! He gets them for the weekend, and doesn't Jack usually stay for a week anyway? That would have been five days they would have had together!

Yes,this is one of the solutions they might have found...But this Ennis reaction makes me think that it was only the "good" excuse for not facing their situation;for him,it was much easier letting Jack's visits only when they were pre-established,when there was not the "surprise" factor,let's say.It seemed as if he didn't feel like having Jack by his side,as a proof of his fears and his deep paranoia,that wins in moments like that.
But I must say in Ennis defense,that even behaving in such an stupid way,he murmures a shy "Jack..." just when this one realises his lover isn't willing to be with him and he is going to his car again;it seems as if he wants somehow to arrange the situation,as realising he had been unfair with Jack.I have repeated a lot of times that I dislike this scene because it reflexes the lack of real communication that there was between the two of them; as so many other things,the BBM good old times,when they had a lot of mutual confidence and communication as a friends,have gone...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #949 on: Feb 19, 2009, 12:13 PM »
Oh gosh, I didn't notice this! That Jack thought maybe since he was being introduced to Ennis' daughters that it meant Ennis was being more open about it...  :\'( Oh, poor Jack! and with him driving back all by himself... That was so heartbreaking.

I believe that Jack did the introducing to the girls like a task he had to do before the real fun with Ennis. His expression and body language showed how impatient he was and how he wants to make a plans with Ennis for their future life. My idea is that he even didn't give it a thought, but that's MHO! Unfortunately "like the most of Jack's wishes" this one was unfulfilled too! My Jack!  :(

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #950 on: Feb 20, 2009, 09:09 AM »
Oh gosh, I didn't notice this! That Jack thought maybe since he was being introduced to Ennis' daughters that it meant Ennis was being more open about it...  :\'( Oh, poor Jack! and with him driving back all by himself... That was so heartbreaking.

Exactly.  Especially since Ennis had just divorced, perhaps Jack thought that it was the right time to get to know the girls anyway, if he and Ennis were to unite...


Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #951 on: Feb 20, 2009, 09:11 AM »
I believe that Jack did the introducing to the girls like a task he had to do before the real fun with Ennis. His expression and body language showed how impatient he was and how he wants to make a plans with Ennis for their future life. My idea is that he even didn't give it a thought, but that's MHO! Unfortunately "like the most of Jack's wishes" this one was unfulfilled too! My Jack!  :(

Interesting.  One could certainly interpret his look as just being too excited to think too much about the introduction.  Perhaps Ennis felt he was forced to introduce Jack, since Jack's arrival had caught him off guard?


vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #952 on: Feb 20, 2009, 02:38 PM »
Interesting.  One could certainly interpret his look as just being too excited to think too much about the introduction.  Perhaps Ennis felt he was forced to introduce Jack, since Jack's arrival had caught him off guard?

When Jack arrived he didn't know that girls are in the truck and he tried to kiss Ennis who loosen himself and having no other way to tell him about the girls and to prevent him from further intimacy, he just said: Come here, invited him to come near the truck and introduced him to the girls. So, for Ennis it was a way to point out that the situation is not suitable for something more than a quiet talk.

Jack, on the other side was ready to leave his wife and his son for Ennis without any remorse, so I don't think that he cared so much for having any special relationship with Ennis's daughters... After being introduced to them, jack immediately turned around and started to talk about the divorce with so touching expectation which was soon failed.... 
« Last Edit: Feb 23, 2009, 10:18 AM by loreen »

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #953 on: Feb 23, 2009, 09:21 AM »
Yes, I think that was an important part of it.  Jack would have kissed Ennis had Ennis not broken away from him to introduce the girls.

Ennis is so hard to read at that moment -- he genuinely looks happy and pleasantly surprised to see Jack, and yet, he must have been learly uncomfortable with his presence there with the girls.  I think this undercurrent of unease is what makes us react with some complexity (and dislike) for this scene, because we somehow anticipate what waa about to happen.


vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #954 on: Feb 23, 2009, 10:28 AM »
Yes, I think that was an important part of it.  Jack would have kissed Ennis had Ennis not broken away from him to introduce the girls.

Ennis is so hard to read at that moment -- he genuinely looks happy and pleasantly surprised to see Jack, and yet, he must have been learly uncomfortable with his presence there with the girls.  I think this undercurrent of unease is what makes us react with some complexity (and dislike) for this scene, because we somehow anticipate what waa about to happen.

Sorry, my previous post was full of mistakes. I usually check it, but this time I obviously didn't. It is not so clear and full of mistakes. But I think that you got my point.

Well, surely Ennis was very happy to see Jack and that split moment when he laid his eyes on him he didn't think of anything else, but that Jack is near him. Maybe had he thought clear, maybe he would've even avoided the hug! Who knows? But when he saw him he just forgot everything. It didn't take too much for him to realize that Jack as loving as he was would become a threat to his image of "normal". That is just what I was talking in the other thread - Jack's open and loving behavior made him even more paranoid and then he just closed himself - and showed Jack that his girls were present! But Jack still doesn't stop - he is willing to stay with Ennis coz he divorced.... and from then thinks rapidly go down!  :(
I am sure that Ennis didn't feel any better than Jack after that awful scene, but Jack was hurt, and Ennis was the one who hurt Jack and himself.

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #955 on: Feb 24, 2009, 09:00 AM »
Yes: Ennis's gut reaction was one of joy.  Such moments are revealing in that they show us the true nature of Ennis, without the oppressive facade he normally raised up for people to see.

Thwe contrast between his initial reaction and his gradual withdrawal into caution is what makes his actions so unappealing in this scene.  It is perhaps close to cowardice, although I think that THAT is too strong a word.


vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #956 on: Feb 24, 2009, 01:06 PM »
Yes: Ennis's gut reaction was one of joy.  Such moments are revealing in that they show us the true nature of Ennis, without the oppressive facade he normally raised up for people to see.

Thwe contrast between his initial reaction and his gradual withdrawal into caution is what makes his actions so unappealing in this scene.  It is perhaps close to cowardice, although I think that THAT is too strong a word.

Maybe not 100% accurate, better said, but there was some cowardice in his behavior. He was afraid practically all his life - that sure is cowardice, right?

Offline jesseanne21

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #957 on: Feb 24, 2009, 06:41 PM »
Maybe not 100% accurate, better said, but there was some cowardice in his behavior. He was afraid practically all his life - that sure is cowardice, right?

Loreen - I can understand why you would view Ennis' actions as cowardice.  When viewing the movie in 2009, it's hard to remember what America was like in 1975 when Ennis got divorced. 

According to the BBM short story, Ennis was 19 years of age in 1963, which means he was born in 1944.  In America in the 1940s through the 1960s homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder.  It was considered a perversion and a sin against God.  It wasn't until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association de-listed homosexuality as a mental disorder in their diagnostic nomenclature.

Not only was homosexuality considered a perversion, but homosexuals were often beaten and even killed for being gay.  Homosexuals moved away from rural areas and went to live in large cities for some measure of safety.  In large cities, gays were also beaten and ridiculed and received no protection under the law.  It wasn't until the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City when gays began to protest in large numbers and fight for their rights that they began to be protected under the law.  The Gay Rights movement mirrored the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s and the Feminists movement of the 1970s.

Today in 2009 it is still dangerous to be openly 'out' in rural America.  Hollywood is making it hip to be gay, but that acceptance is still slow to reach some places.

Ennis lived in a small, rural town.  There were no openly 'out' men around him.  There was no one he could talk to about his feelings.    He was alone and isolated.  Like most everyone, Ennis did the best that he could in the time and place he lived with the knowledge that he had.  If he had known better, he would have done better. 


[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

vedrana

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #958 on: Feb 25, 2009, 02:48 AM »
Loreen - I can understand why you would view Ennis' actions as cowardice.  When viewing the movie in 2009, it's hard to remember what America was like in 1975 when Ennis got divorced. 

According to the BBM short story, Ennis was 19 years of age in 1963, which means he was born in 1944.  In America in the 1940s through the 1960s homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder.  It was considered a perversion and a sin against God.  It wasn't until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association de-listed homosexuality as a mental disorder in their diagnostic nomenclature.

Not only was homosexuality considered a perversion, but homosexuals were often beaten and even killed for being gay.  Homosexuals moved away from rural areas and went to live in large cities for some measure of safety.  In large cities, gays were also beaten and ridiculed and received no protection under the law.  It wasn't until the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City when gays began to protest in large numbers and fight for their rights that they began to be protected under the law.  The Gay Rights movement mirrored the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s and the Feminists movement of the 1970s.

Today in 2009 it is still dangerous to be openly 'out' in rural America.  Hollywood is making it hip to be gay, but that acceptance is still slow to reach some places.

Ennis lived in a small, rural town.  There were no openly 'out' men around him.  There was no one he could talk to about his feelings.    He was alone and isolated.  Like most everyone, Ennis did the best that he could in the time and place he lived with the knowledge that he had.  If he had known better, he would have done better. 

I quote the last sentence.

I always seem to be too harsh on Ennis... maybe I really am. And maybe I am just so sorry to see how his fear ruled over him, preventing him to do only one little step more and accomplish the sweet life with Jack - the thing that would make both of them the most happy people in the world... I don't know. I will always be sorry for this .... :(

Offline tpe

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Re: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)
« Reply #959 on: Feb 25, 2009, 08:22 AM »
Maybe not 100% accurate, better said, but there was some cowardice in his behavior. He was afraid practically all his life - that sure is cowardice, right?

Well, it was a failure of nerve, to say the least...  :(