Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[lancecowboy]

I have to disagree with both! 
If child received no love, he is not capable of loving. Child is like an empty bowl, in which we have to put the most precious ingredient of all - love! If child doesn't receive love, he/she would grow up to be a very empty person without a real capability to love. Children should learn how to love, and that's something common. Why children from broken and emotionless families without mother's or father's love raise their children in the same manner -cos they received no love.

But I believe that Jack had his Ma's love, and that's what made him a loving person. Without his Ma, he wouldn't be able to treat people so nicely. But the most of all, he was just that kind of person/character. Loving, tender, understanding, warm... Uh, did anyone notice how I like this guy? 

I agree with you here Loreen. Jack's Ma had a profound impact on Jack, that's for sure.

However, I also think children, although as you described (learn from their parents), have a remarkable resilience and are often blessed to find love when it has been denied in the home, from their parents. Many children from broken abusive homes find love else where and grow up to be loving tender gentle people who nurture their own children with great love. We are not, in my humble opinion, simply an empty bowl that regurgitates what has been poured into it. We are also complex and beautiful souls with gifts from the creator, and often, we resonate with the serendipitous encounter, with those who can share the same love that is already in us.

I believe that is the case between Ennis and Jack. Their love resonated across the boundaries and fears.

I believe that is the case with us brokies and the movie. We each resonate with the movie in our own frequency or frequencies.

Brokeback Mountain is a great movie, in my humble opinion, precisely because it is rich with many frequencies and resonates with a diverse audience.

It calls us to respond with love. And even those among us who never experienced the love as Ennis and Jack did, could understand and feel the substance of their eternal love. That is also the great performance between Heath and Jake.

In my opinion.

[vedrana]

I agree with you here Loreen. Jack's Ma had a profound impact on Jack, that's for sure.

However, I also think children, although as you described (learn from their parents), have a remarkable resilience and are often blessed to find love when it has been denied in the home, from their parents. Many children from broken abusive homes find love else where and grow up to be loving tender gentle people who nurture their own children with great love. We are not, in my humble opinion, simply an empty bowl that regurgitates what has been poured into it. We are also complex and beautiful souls with gifts from the creator, and often, we resonate with the serendipitous encounter, with those who can share the same love that is already in us.

I believe that is the case between Ennis and Jack. Their love resonated across the boundaries and fears.

I believe that is the case with us brokies and the movie. We each resonate with the movie in our own frequency or frequencies.

Brokeback Mountain is a great movie, in my humble opinion, precisely because it is rich with many frequencies and resonates with a diverse audience.

It calls us to respond with love. And even those among us who never experienced the love as Ennis and Jack did, could understand and feel the substance of their eternal love. That is also the great performance between Heath and Jake.

In my opinion.

Sure, child can find so needed love somewhere else if not at home, but child needs love like a flower needs water. It can not live without it.

Great post, Lance!

[tpe]

I have to disagree with both! 
If child received no love, he is not capable of loving. Child is like an empty bowl, in which we have to put the most precious ingredient of all - love! If child doesn't receive love, he/she would grow up to be a very empty person without a real capability to love. Children should learn how to love, and that's something common. Why children from broken and emotionless families without mother's or father's love raise their children in the same manner -cos they received no love.

But I believe that Jack had his Ma's love, and that's what made him a loving person. Without his Ma, he wouldn't be able to treat people so nicely. But the most of all, he was just that kind of person/character. Loving, tender, understanding, warm... Uh, did anyone notice how I like this guy? 

In reality, it is much more complicated than what we make it out to be.  But to be sure, a child raised up without love does not invariably develop into a monster.  That's because every person naturally needs to love and be loved.  We are not taught how to love in schools or universities.  Even a child whose mother and father died early on and was brought up in a loveless orphanage will develop friendships and bonds with people simply because the intrinsic need is there in human nature itself.

Love is not rooted in conditioning, like a dog who is taught to salivate at the sound of a bell.  It is part of the human soul, and it cannot be suppressed.  Even the most horrific monsters knew how it was to love and be loved.  And that love is part of the dignity of ALL human life.

[vedrana]

In reality, it is much more complicated than what we make it out to be.  But to be sure, a child raised up without love does not invariably develop into a monster.  That's because every person naturally needs to love and be loved.  We are not taught how to love in schools or universities.  Even a child whose mother and father died early on and was brought up in a loveless orphanage will develop friendships and bonds with people simply because the intrinsic need is there in human nature itself.

Love is not rooted in conditioning, like a dog who is taught to salivate at the sound of a bell.  It is part of the human soul, and it cannot be suppressed.  Even the most horrific monsters knew how it was to love and be loved.  And that love is part of the dignity of ALL human life.

This matter is very deep and very wide to explain in a few posts. I believe that love is a biggest necessity in human's life, but it is only after we receive it, we are able to give it to the others. Everyone is searching for love in every shape of it - friendship, parental, romantic love, but the roots are in receiving the first seed of love from (most commonly but not necessary) parents. And I don't think that a children without parents would become monsters, surely they will try to develop a form of love with other misfortune children, but somewhere, somehow, someone should show them what love is.

I think that Jack's love seed was Mrs. Twist . even in the shadow of an old bully! 

[tpe]

This matter is very deep and very wide to explain in a few posts. I believe that love is a biggest necessity in human's life, but it is only after we receive it, we are able to give it to the others. Everyone is searching for love in every shape of it - friendship, parental, romantic love, but the roots are in receiving the first seed of love from (most commonly but not necessary) parents. And I don't think that a children without parents would become monsters, surely they will try to develop a form of love with other misfortune children, but somewhere, somehow, someone should show them what love is.

I think that Jack's love seed was Mrs. Twist . even in the shadow of an old bully! 

From what little see see/hear of her from the movie, she is without question a truly loving soul.  I am sure that she was a decisive influence in Jack's life.

[lancecowboy]

In reality, it is much more complicated than what we make it out to be.  But to be sure, a child raised up without love does not invariably develop into a monster.  That's because every person naturally needs to love and be loved.  We are not taught how to love in schools or universities.  Even a child whose mother and father died early on and was brought up in a loveless orphanage will develop friendships and bonds with people simply because the intrinsic need is there in human nature itself.

Love is not rooted in conditioning, like a dog who is taught to salivate at the sound of a bell.  It is part of the human soul, and it cannot be suppressed.  Even the most horrific monsters knew how it was to love and be loved.  And that love is part of the dignity of ALL human life.

Perhaps the greatest teachers are those who impact love to their students. Administrators and school trustees often hide behind a facade of professional decorum, of dispassionate intelligence, and forget what you put so beautifully, that love is part of the dignity of all human life. Schools and colleges need love as much as students need it. Great schools and great teachers are those who can wisely guide their students with love in mind first and foremost, and the curriculum follows as a framework, a path, not as a destination.
Love is the destination of all human activities.

[vedrana]

Perhaps the greatest teachers are those who impact love to their students. Administrators and school trustees often hide behind a facade of professional decorum, of dispassionate intelligence, and forget what you put so beautifully, that love is part of the dignity of all human life. Schools and colleges need love as much as students need it. Great schools and great teachers are those who can wisely guide their students with love in mind first and foremost, and the curriculum follows as a framework, a path, not as a destination.
Love is the destination of all human activities.

Not only the destination, but the source and the way of obtaining that destination!

[tpe]

Perhaps the greatest teachers are those who impact love to their students. Administrators and school trustees often hide behind a facade of professional decorum, of dispassionate intelligence, and forget what you put so beautifully, that love is part of the dignity of all human life. Schools and colleges need love as much as students need it. Great schools and great teachers are those who can wisely guide their students with love in mind first and foremost, and the curriculum follows as a framework, a path, not as a destination.
Love is the destination of all human activities.

Not only the destination, but the source and the way of obtaining that destination!

I agree.  I think that by and large, the demonstration of love can sometimes be so nuanced.  The point about teachers and universities is so true.  Of course, the supression of any overt demonstration in favor of the look or appearance of distant professionalism is rooted by fear that bounderies could be crossed to the detriment of the younger and less experienced students.

In the case of Ennis and Jack, the demonstration of love was sometimes problematic, and fear was also a motivating factor in the supression of much of it.

 

[vedrana]

I agree.  I think that by and large, the demonstration of love can sometimes be so nuanced.  The point about teachers and universities is so true.  Of course, the supression of any overt demonstration in favor of the look or appearance of distant professionalism is rooted by fear that bounderies could be crossed to the detriment of the younger and less experienced students.

In the case of Ennis and Jack, the demonstration of love was sometimes problematic, and fear was also a motivating factor in the supression of much of it.

Yes, and Ennis was in fear from the society's reaction, and Jack was in fear of Ennis' reaction! 

[tpe]

Yes, and Ennis was in fear from the society's reaction, and Jack was in fear of Ennis' reaction! 

A very good distinction.  I sometimes feel that jack could have gotten much further had he been more insistent and less taken aback by Ennis's rebuffs.

 

[myprivatejack]

A very good distinction.  I sometimes feel that jack could have gotten much further had he been more insistent and less taken aback by Ennis's rebuffs.

Absolutely ¡ But he was afraid of putting Ennis against the ropes too many times and that it could mean him run away.Then he has the best ally of Ennis fears and denials,of course against himself... :\'(

[vedrana]

Absolutely ¡ But he was afraid of putting Ennis against the ropes too many times and that it could mean him run away.Then he has the best ally of Ennis fears and denials,of course against himself... :\'(

Both of them made many mistakes and while Ennis' were more obvious, Jack had his mistakes too. He was afraid to be rejected, cos he loved Ennis so much, that he lost too many chances during years. 

[lancecowboy]

Both of them made many mistakes and while Ennis' were more obvious, Jack had his mistakes too. He was afraid to be rejected, cos he loved Ennis so much, that he lost too many chances during years. 

Interesting discussion going on. I am not sure if Jack is afraid of rejection. He gets rejected time and again with other men, with sales pitch that don't work, with dreams that never go anywhere.

I think Jack's fear is deeper than rejection because he knows that Ennis already accepted him as he is.

Jack's fear, in my opinion is loss. He is afraid of losing Ennis altogether. He can't never quit Ennis because he never wants to lose Ennis. That's the love that they shared. Ennis and Jack loved each other so much, that either one of them losing the other is unimaginable and deeply painful. It's why they were miserable apart, ecstatic together. It is why Ennis suffered so after Jack died, and so comforted after the two shirts. They were finally together again.

Jack knew and understood their two souls as one; Ennis felt it and kept it at a distance, until too late. Then all he had were memories and dreams. In a way, it speaks to the depth and greatness of their love, that even death could not separate the bond between them. Even through death, their love binds Ennis to the memories and dreams that were Jack. In a sense, Jack's fear was unfounded because, if he had enough faith in the love, he would have known that it would not fail, that he would never lose Ennis.

Both of them had too much fears separately, and not enough faith in the love that they both shared in abundance.

[lancecowboy]

I agree.  I think that by and large, the demonstration of love can sometimes be so nuanced.  The point about teachers and universities is so true.  Of course, the supression of any overt demonstration in favor of the look or appearance of distant professionalism is rooted by fear that bounderies could be crossed to the detriment of the younger and less experienced students.

In the case of Ennis and Jack, the demonstration of love was sometimes problematic, and fear was also a motivating factor in the supression of much of it.
 

I think the sterile environment is not for the benefit of students but more for the protection of immature teachers who might cross the line with their students blurring the line between love and sex. Students follow the lead of their teachers, and no matter what wild crushes students have on their teachers, as long as teachers maintain the proper relationship, it is natural and normal for students to express affection for their role models.

The problem is caused by the few individuals who caused harm to their students, and their profession. Great teachers find ways around those constraints and inspire their students with love and affection nonetheless.

Love can be expressed in myriad ways, not just through touching and sex. The Hollywood versions of love distorted our perception and understanding of true love. It is why, ironically, movies such as Titanic and Brokeback Mountain, among others, have made such deep impact. They remind us true love is more than just sex.

[vedrana]

Interesting discussion going on. I am not sure if Jack is afraid of rejection. He gets rejected time and again with other men, with sales pitch that don't work, with dreams that never go anywhere.

I think Jack's fear is deeper than rejection because he knows that Ennis already accepted him as he is.

Jack's fear, in my opinion is loss. He is afraid of losing Ennis altogether. He can't never quit Ennis because he never wants to lose Ennis. That's the love that they shared. Ennis and Jack loved each other so much, that either one of them losing the other is unimaginable and deeply painful. It's why they were miserable apart, ecstatic together. It is why Ennis suffered so after Jack died, and so comforted after the two shirts. They were finally together again.

Jack knew and understood their two souls as one; Ennis felt it and kept it at a distance, until too late. Then all he had were memories and dreams. In a way, it speaks to the depth and greatness of their love, that even death could not separate the bond between them. Even through death, their love binds Ennis to the memories and dreams that were Jack. In a sense, Jack's fear was unfounded because, if he had enough faith in the love, he would have known that it would not fail, that he would never lose Ennis.

Both of them had too much fears separately, and not enough faith in the love that they both shared in abundance.

Lovely post Lance!
You explained much better what I was thinking. I said that Jack was afraid of Ennis' rejection, and I know that even Ennis had rejected him before. So I was thinking of the final refusal, of slipping away cos of his fears.

Sure, you're right that Jack was wrong, but his need for Ennis was so strong that he couldn't calculate on this one, he could not try to make Ennis feel rejected and left alone. He always gave his best and the most that he could. But each Ennis' morose face, or stubborn comment made him shiver. I so feel for Jack in those unpleasant situation.

OT: Each time I see your new avatar, I shiver too! :\'(

[tpe]

I think the sterile environment is not for the benefit of students but more for the protection of immature teachers who might cross the line with their students blurring the line between love and sex. Students follow the lead of their teachers, and no matter what wild crushes students have on their teachers, as long as teachers maintain the proper relationship, it is natural and normal for students to express affection for their role models.

The problem is caused by the few individuals who caused harm to their students, and their profession. Great teachers find ways around those constraints and inspire their students with love and affection nonetheless.

Again: well stated.  You echo the point of Socrates here...

Love can be expressed in myriad ways, not just through touching and sex. The Hollywood versions of love distorted our perception and understanding of true love. It is why, ironically, movies such as Titanic and Brokeback Mountain, among others, have made such deep impact. They remind us true love is more than just sex.

I personally think that in BBM, it is first and foremost about the personal connection between the two of them.  It encompasses friendship, sex, and much much more...  The word "affinity" comes close.  It is a term that goes beyond a romantic stereotype.

[atalley]

Interesting discussion going on. I am not sure if Jack is afraid of rejection. He gets rejected time and again with other men, with sales pitch that don't work, with dreams that never go anywhere.

I think Jack's fear is deeper than rejection because he knows that Ennis already accepted him as he is.

Jack's fear, in my opinion is loss. He is afraid of losing Ennis altogether. He can't never quit Ennis because he never wants to lose Ennis. That's the love that they shared. Ennis and Jack loved each other so much, that either one of them losing the other is unimaginable and deeply painful. It's why they were miserable apart, ecstatic together. It is why Ennis suffered so after Jack died, and so comforted after the two shirts. They were finally together again.

Jack knew and understood their two souls as one; Ennis felt it and kept it at a distance, until too late. Then all he had were memories and dreams. In a way, it speaks to the depth and greatness of their love, that even death could not separate the bond between them. Even through death, their love binds Ennis to the memories and dreams that were Jack. In a sense, Jack's fear was unfounded because, if he had enough faith in the love, he would have known that it would not fail, that he would never lose Ennis.

Both of them had too much fears separately, and not enough faith in the love that they both shared in abundance.

I've been busy lately, but thought that this was worth repeating.     I've been missin' ole Brokeback.

[tpe]

I've been busy lately, but thought that this was worth repeating.     I've been missin' ole Brokeback.

OT: you'll always have a little home-away-from-home right here, atalley.