Author Topic: How do you see Jack?  (Read 90950 times)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #120 on: Apr 28, 2008, 08:07 AM »
lamusica, I think you have some interesting insights into Jack. And while he certainly saw his share of unpleasantness in his life, from his father to so many other representatives of humanity, the world was never able to spoil him or dull that boyish openness. As you said, he wore his heart on his sleeve. It's one of his most endearing qualities to me. Because doing that can make you vulnerable and he was willing to do so, over and over again. That takes a generosity of spirit that I've always admired.

Poor Ennis was knocked around early in life and his ability to trust in anything like that was deeply shaken. It makes me sad for him at the same time that it makes me admire him for having to grow up so much so early. And that is why seeing those moments where you feel like you actually have access to his heart, those moments where Jack seems to be able to free, even if just for a little while, that child Ennis didn't get to be, is so beautiful. As ww and lc point out, Ennis doesn't have much in his life or his outlook of the world that makes him smile. Jack was able to do that in a unique way.

And just to bring me back on topic, that is one more thing that I am drawn to in Jack. It is his openness and vulnerability, his pure affection for Ennis and willingness, at the same time, to abide by those invisible boundaries that ruled them that gives Ennis that safe place to bring his heart and his inner child to. Again, it is a generosity on Jack's part that I think is sometimes overlooked.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline Tony

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #121 on: Apr 28, 2008, 11:50 AM »
   Gosh, I love it when, on this forum, we get to a topic where it''s not civil disagreement, but each person developing, ever more, a fuller picture, and a more conclusive answer.  Anne sees Jack as a dreamer.  MPJ focuses on the love and how we can identify with them.  Tpe simplifies my own 5 paragraphs to the obvious--the earnestness and reality of Jack.  Lamusica goes further and speaks of Jack's child-like innocence.  FlwrChild adds in the same applying also, in some ways, to Ennis.  And Welshwitch notes that part of human nature where we need to see something human and even amusing in others, so that we can relate to them.  I've probably missed somebody, so, please forgive that, but it is so very neat when we build, each upon the others posts, for a better over-all view.
  I still think they nailed us, big-time, by being less of idealized, cardboard characters, but very human and with real faults, just like us, but faults we always live with, because they loved, and so we can look past that.  And I do believe the origin of that trap (our loving them) derive from Annie Proulx's focus on realism.  Whatever differences there are between the SS and the film, Annie's sub-theme was always there, that it's OK to be a loser, and maybe losers are the only real humans left around.
  Yeah, I did miss someone - Baby Tammy, whose thoughts led to my own last sentence, above.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #122 on: Apr 28, 2008, 01:22 PM »
Tony, I don't know how to express why, but your post made me cry. I guess it's because what you said about us all building upon each other and developing a fuller picture makes me appreciate all over again the wonderful ties we have with each other here, and that's such a gift. :ghug:

And especially because of what you said about our boys and why we love them:


I still think they nailed us, big-time, by being less of idealized, cardboard characters, but very human and with real faults, just like us, but faults we always live with, because they loved, and so we can look past that.

It's just beautiful. Thank you. All of you. <^(

For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline Tony

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #123 on: Apr 28, 2008, 02:09 PM »
  Dear FlwrChild - that you CAN cry, over our family here, and over our beloved movie, is what makes you and the others so much more human in a world that is really, often, very rotten.  Of course, we guys don't cry, we, er, weep (is that sexist?)  ::) , but it's still, who we are.
   And it takes certain types of people to make goodness shine through.  It took the writers and director and actors of BBM to, in effect, add something beautiful to the world.  And it took Ethan, the administrators, and people like you, to let this family be born and keep going.
  Know something?  Because of how you see Jack, you've GOT to know, he would have loved you.  And the rest of us.  Jack was real.  Annie and Jake made him real.  And our family damn sure is real, and all the more loveable, like Jack, for our human frailties.  I'm outta here before I cry,...oops, weep.
Tony.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #124 on: Apr 28, 2008, 03:01 PM »
  Dear FlwrChild - that you CAN cry, over our family here, and over our beloved movie, is what makes you and the others so much more human in a world that is really, often, very rotten.  Of course, we guys don't cry, we, er, weep (is that sexist?)  ::) , but it's still, who we are.
   And it takes certain types of people to make goodness shine through.  It took the writers and director and actors of BBM to, in effect, add something beautiful to the world.  And it took Ethan, the administrators, and people like you, to let this family be born and keep going.
  Know something?  Because of how you see Jack, you've GOT to know, he would have loved you.  And the rest of us.  Jack was real.  Annie and Jake made him real.  And our family damn sure is real, and all the more loveable, like Jack, for our human frailties.  I'm outta here before I cry,...oops, weep.
Tony.


 <^( Thank you. That's beautiful. And so are you. :ghug:
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #125 on: Apr 28, 2008, 03:48 PM »
im really going to just answer the question in a really simple way here and say that, in many ways jack is my idol, the dreamer, loving, determined, kind the list doesnt stop like anyone he has his minor faults but in really simple terms thats how i see him :) an idol :)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #126 on: Apr 28, 2008, 04:14 PM »
I just feel we love and admire him so much because of his human virtues. How he found love and fought for it. How he fought for it. and how long. He was so real indeed. This entity called love took him to the highest hieghts to the lowest lows. Yet still he sought to keep it for himself and Ennis. Sometimes love, will make you do things ya never said you'd do and that is the uncontrollable part. He let it control him and used it to propell him forward, never standing still . He was positive about life even though life was'nt always positive towards him. I think this why we identify and admire his strength so much.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

babytammy7

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #127 on: Apr 28, 2008, 04:46 PM »
    Know something?  Because of how you see Jack, you've GOT to know, he would have loved you.  And the rest of us.  Jack was real.   Annie and Jake made him real.  And our family damn sure is real, and all the more loveable, like Jack, for our human frailties.  I'm outta here before I cry,...oops, weep.
Tony.


Oh man, you got me crying here. This is so moving.  :\'( :\'(

What an amazing thread. All your post are so beautiful, friends!!!  <^( <^( Thank you so much. I could quote the whole thread.

You all know I love Jack because he's just human and that let me see myself just as a human being too with a lot of faults. Now I can understand myself better. You all know too that I've always loved Jack because I share with him that immense ability to dream so high. But what hits me the most about Jack is his deep true unique devotion to Ennis, no matter what, no matter when, no matter how, just painful sheer devotion. I think I've never seen that kind of love before. I think I've never felt it. So his love still now is a like a hard punch for me, something utterly precious, beyond words, that amazes me just because I didn't even know that you really could love in that way when someone was hurting you the way Ennis did sometimes. I think Cassie was right:"People don't fall in love with fun." And Jack just showed me that.

Love him with all my heart. I'll never been tired of saying that.

Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #128 on: Apr 29, 2008, 08:15 AM »
*** 
  I still think they nailed us, big-time, by being less of idealized, cardboard characters, but very human and with real faults, just like us, but faults we always live with, because they loved, and so we can look past that.  And I do believe the origin of that trap (our loving them) derive from Annie Proulx's focus on realism.  Whatever differences there are between the SS and the film, Annie's sub-theme was always there, that it's OK to be a loser, and maybe losers are the only real humans left around.
  Yeah, I did miss someone - Baby Tammy, whose thoughts led to my own last sentence, above.

I think the characterization was super-real, in that they also paint the inner picture of each one of them in a way that is very human: full of gray areas and ambiguities.  It doesn't make for a straightforward story, and the characters are certainly not plain heroes and villains.  Jack epitomizes this: he is both.  But whatever aspects he dispalays from one scene to another, he is always very human.


Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #129 on: Apr 29, 2008, 08:16 AM »
im really going to just answer the question in a really simple way here and say that, in many ways jack is my idol, the dreamer, loving, determined, kind the list doesnt stop like anyone he has his minor faults but in really simple terms thats how i see him :) an idol :)

We sometimes do love our idols even more when we discover that they have feet of clay.


Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #130 on: Apr 29, 2008, 08:20 AM »
***

You all know I love Jack because he's just human and that let me see myself just as a human being too with a lot of faults. Now I can understand myself better. You all know too that I've always loved Jack because I share with him that immense ability to dream so high. But what hits me the most about Jack is his deep true unique devotion to Ennis, no matter what, no matter when, no matter how, just painful sheer devotion. I think I've never seen that kind of love before. I think I've never felt it. So his love still now is a like a hard punch for me, something utterly precious, beyond words, that amazes me just because I didn't even know that you really could love in that way when someone was hurting you the way Ennis did sometimes. I think Cassie was right:"People don't fall in love with fun." And Jack just showed me that.

Love him with all my heart. I'll never been tired of saying that.

I do admit that it is Jack's ability to dream and to love that get to me the most.  The dream may not come true, and the love may be imperfect, but he shows no fear in dreaming, and he stubbornly loves back, in spite of the many times he stumbles.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #131 on: Apr 29, 2008, 11:10 AM »
I do admit that it is Jack's ability to dream and to love that get to me the most.  The dream may not come true, and the love may be imperfect, but he shows no fear in dreaming, and he stubbornly loves back, in spite of the many times he stumbles.

You're right,but another of Jack's qualities I'd remark the most is how he can dream,but not only doing it in a passive way,but fighting for getting it.And,even if sometimes the way he fights is not the proper or the correct,he doesn't leave neither his dreams nor the struggle to get to fulfill them.I've always called him "Jack the dreamer",but also "Jack,the fighter".
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lamusica

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #132 on: Apr 29, 2008, 03:16 PM »
I have to admit here, that my view of Jack solidified when I read the ss.  Anne doesn't paint him as the beautiful Jake Gyllenhaal, but as a man with a rather cute, but imperfect face, short, a little on the heavy side -- certainly not the Jack of the film.  But Annie's Jack fit his character just as well as did Jake.  I've taught kids who looked like Annie's Jack -- curly-headed, tricky, cute--and have often found them to be intriguing, full of fun, surprising, free-spirited, and loveable.  So, I found Jack to be the same.  He says and does things that make me laugh, pokes fun of things and of himself, is not arrogant, is gentle and makes Ennis fall in love with him.  He's a bit simplistic, not self-conscious, just real.  I think that's what we all see and relate to.  His appeal is more in his personality and physicality than in his words.  He's never out to dupe anyone or to hurt anyone; he's just a simple loving manchild.
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Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #133 on: Apr 30, 2008, 09:14 AM »
You're right,but another of Jack's qualities I'd remark the most is how he can dream,but not only doing it in a passive way,but fighting for getting it.And,even if sometimes the way he fights is not the proper or the correct,he doesn't leave neither his dreams nor the struggle to get to fulfill them.I've always called him "Jack the dreamer",but also "Jack,the fighter".

It's that sense of restlessness -- of wanting more and wanting to live more, that is at the core of his ability to fight for what he wants.  But he also doesn't want to fight with the intention of hurting Ennis.  Ennis is the quiescent point in Jack's restlessness.

Thus, St. Augustine:

Inquietum est cornostrum, donec requiescat in te

(Our hearts are restless until it rests in you)


Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #134 on: Apr 30, 2008, 09:16 AM »
I have to admit here, that my view of Jack solidified when I read the ss.  Anne doesn't paint him as the beautiful Jake Gyllenhaal, but as a man with a rather cute, but imperfect face, short, a little on the heavy side -- certainly not the Jack of the film.  But Annie's Jack fit his character just as well as did Jake.  I've taught kids who looked like Annie's Jack -- curly-headed, tricky, cute--and have often found them to be intriguing, full of fun, surprising, free-spirited, and loveable.  So, I found Jack to be the same.  He says and does things that make me laugh, pokes fun of things and of himself, is not arrogant, is gentle and makes Ennis fall in love with him.  He's a bit simplistic, not self-conscious, just real.  I think that's what we all see and relate to.  His appeal is more in his personality and physicality than in his words.  He's never out to dupe anyone or to hurt anyone; he's just a simple loving manchild.

Very interesting comparison, lamusica.  I had always thought that Jake's Jack was fundamentally different from Proulx's.  But after reading what you say here, I am definitely reconsidering my position.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #135 on: May 02, 2008, 10:25 PM »
 I see Jack as some one who felt that it does'nt matter how many times he got knocked down, but how many times he got back up. If he thought something was worth fighting for, he went after it. He was'nt a quitter.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2008, 07:15 AM »
I see Jack as some one who felt that it does'nt matter how many times he got knocked down, but how many times he got back up. If he thought something was worth fighting for, he went after it. He was'nt a quitter.

i agree :) 100%

babytammy7

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2008, 10:17 AM »
Beautiful AF.  :clap: :clap: I love everything you say.  <^( <^(
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 08:55 AM by Baby Tammy »

Offline welshwitch

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2008, 10:31 AM »
Maybe we also love him because his dream isn't a selfish one; he wants to include Ennis in it, in fact spends half his life waiting for Ennis to agree. Right from the first time he mentions the sweet life, it's meant to be a shared life.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2008, 10:36 AM »
Maybe we also love him because his dream isn't a selfish one; he wants to include Ennis in it, in fact spends half his life waiting for Ennis to agree. Right from the first time he mentions the sweet life, it's meant to be a shared life.

id say that sounds about right :)

manhattangirl

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #140 on: May 03, 2008, 10:39 AM »
I have to admit here, that my view of Jack solidified when I read the ss.  Anne doesn't paint him as the beautiful Jake Gyllenhaal, but as a man with a rather cute, but imperfect face, short, a little on the heavy side -- certainly not the Jack of the film.  But Annie's Jack fit his character just as well as did Jake.  I've taught kids who looked like Annie's Jack -- curly-headed, tricky, cute--and have often found them to be intriguing, full of fun, surprising, free-spirited, and loveable.  So, I found Jack to be the same.  He says and does things that make me laugh, pokes fun of things and of himself, is not arrogant, is gentle and makes Ennis fall in love with him.  He's a bit simplistic, not self-conscious, just real.  I think that's what we all see and relate to.  His appeal is more in his personality and physicality than in his words.  He's never out to dupe anyone or to hurt anyone; he's just a simple loving manchild.

I love this post.  That's why I love ss, it's the physical imperfections of Jack that dim as Ennis is drawn deeper emotionally to him.    Just ordinary looking guys, with this extraordinary love.  It's too beautiful.  

babytammy7

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #141 on: May 03, 2008, 01:27 PM »
Maybe we also love him because his dream isn't a selfish one; he wants to include Ennis in it, in fact spends half his life waiting for Ennis to agree. Right from the first time he mentions the sweet life, it's meant to be a shared life.

Yeah, and he didn't do anything to have his dream without Ennis, to have it anywhere, because his true dream was Ennis.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 05:03 PM by Baby Tammy »

babytammy7

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2008, 01:28 PM »
I love this post.  That's why I love ss, it's the physical imperfections of Jack that dim as Ennis is drawn deeper emotionally to him.    Just ordinary looking guys, with this extraordinary love.  It's too beautiful. 

Totally beautiful.  <^( <^( <^(

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #143 on: May 06, 2008, 12:05 PM »
Maybe we also love him because his dream isn't a selfish one; he wants to include Ennis in it, in fact spends half his life waiting for Ennis to agree. Right from the first time he mentions the sweet life, it's meant to be a shared life.


So perfectly worded and oh so true.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #144 on: May 06, 2008, 12:07 PM »
All of these posts are so reflective of how I see Jack and you've all said it so well. I just want to thank you for sharing those impressions and your insights in such an eloquent way. It just makes me love him, and you, that much more. :ghug:
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #145 on: May 06, 2008, 11:25 PM »
Maybe we also love him because his dream isn't a selfish one; he wants to include Ennis in it, in fact spends half his life waiting for Ennis to agree. Right from the first time he mentions the sweet life, it's meant to be a shared life.

welshwitch, this is so beautifully said. it's jack's love all wrapped up in a nutshell.  <^( :^^) thanks

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #146 on: May 18, 2008, 11:40 PM »
I just feel we love and admire him so much because of his human virtues. How he found love and fought for it. How he fought for it. and how long. He was so real indeed. This entity called love took him to the highest hieghts to the lowest lows. Yet still he sought to keep it for himself and Ennis. Sometimes love, will make you do things ya never said you'd do and that is the uncontrollable part. He let it control him and used it to propell him forward, never standing still . He was positive about life even though life was'nt always positive towards him. I think this why we identify and admire his strength so much.

I believe that too. Jack fought for something real, the most beautiful, most right, most meaningful thing in the universes...true love. That's what makes him so courageous and admirable. He would never give up just because of the daunting circumstances. And in fighting for true love, he fought for another thing that is right, real, and meaningful...freedom.

Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #147 on: May 19, 2008, 07:21 AM »
I believe that too. Jack fought for something real, the most beautiful, most right, most meaningful thing in the universes...true love.

The beauty of this is that even in failure -- no matter how bad things end up -- one remains blessed by the experience.

babytammy7

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #148 on: May 19, 2008, 09:00 AM »
I believe that too. Jack fought for something real, the most beautiful, most right, most meaningful thing in the universes...true love. That's what makes him so courageous and admirable. He would never give up just because of the daunting circumstances. And in fighting for true love, he fought for another thing that is right, real, and meaningful...freedom.

Athena, this is gorgeous and I totally agree!!  ^f^

Offline atalley

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #149 on: Jun 04, 2008, 04:46 PM »
Now y'all have got me all teary eyed :\'(  I agree with each one, but I think Tammy said it best...Jack was completely devoted to Ennis-for life. No matter how much he would be hurt and suffer, he loved Ennis until his dying breath, and in the end Ennis knew this and wept. :\'( :\'( :\'(