Author Topic: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes  (Read 130267 times)

manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #180 on: May 12, 2008, 07:37 PM »
The way Ennis yields to Jack in the SNIT indeed strikes me as beautiful in that Ennis fully exposes his vulnerability to Jack as in no other time, except perhaps in his collapse close to the end of the last Confrontation.    It was a pure act of giving.



But don't you think, that perhaps it was more than just that one night that Ennis yields.  I think that's why Jack holds on for so long, that Ennis does yield to him, and more than once.  I don't think Jack was a man to be all the time dominated by Ennis, and I think Ennis wants to unclench that fist inside of him, and the only person he could do this was with Jack. 

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #181 on: May 13, 2008, 07:20 AM »
I quote this. Beautifully put together.

Though in the movie we tend to see that Ennis is the more dominant, active in masculine way (sorry I don't have the right words),  SNIT shows something of his other side. I personally have always wanted to think that their roles weren't so tightly fixed, that there were versatileness. I haven't read much fan fic, but some, and after reading fic that shows Ennis predominantly active I have felt little bit disturbed, cos I felt somewhat other way. OK, it is totally a world of its own. In the original AP's story and movie I have seen/wanted to see more variations. Jack is the more flexible, the one who can take different roles - although I see him more submissive by nature - but I just can't see Ennis only dominant. this is what i think and how i want it to be in my imagination. ;)

Good point, Carmilla.  I do think that roles were not as tightly fixed as we sometimes tend to think, especially with reference to certain scenes.  SNIT is of course a wonderful example, as you point out. 

I also don't see Ennis as dominant in everything, although I will say that in the end, it is a matter of taste on how we choose to extrapolate their roles beyond the scenes and the story itself.

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #182 on: May 13, 2008, 07:22 AM »
But don't you think, that perhaps it was more than just that one night that Ennis yields.  I think that's why Jack holds on for so long, that Ennis does yield to him, and more than once.  I don't think Jack was a man to be all the time dominated by Ennis, and I think Ennis wants to unclench that fist inside of him, and the only person he could do this was with Jack. 

I agree, it is probably not just this one night, although everything else requires some extrapolation on our part, as I had said to Carmilla in my previous post.  SNIT is sympomatic of a certain flexibility in the roles each character played, I think.  I personally think that it was give and take, as far as both of them are concerned.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #183 on: May 13, 2008, 10:14 PM »
Good point, Carmilla.  I do think that roles were not as tightly fixed as we sometimes tend to think, especially with reference to certain scenes.  SNIT is of course a wonderful example, as you point out. 

I also don't see Ennis as dominant in everything, although I will say that in the end, it is a matter of taste on how we choose to extrapolate their roles beyond the scenes and the story itself.


 In a general sense we can speak of  one of them as "dominant". Some one on top and some one on the bottom, "submissive". The one on top being  thought of as the dominant one.

  But really, just because one is *bottom* , does that mean that one was not in a dominant position?  Passive-dominance? There are so many variations and positions that warrant the lables "dominate "or "submissive", top or bottom. If it was *oral*, who would  be considered dominant? , giver or reciever?  Is either partner submissive? I feel both are giving and getting equally, can't have one, without the other.
 It stuck me that after what had transpired in FNIT, Jack was there, in full view of Ennis, undressing though within the tent, he knew Ennis was still in camp and Ennis watches him do it. Did Ennis see this as an invitation by Jack to join him again? A challenge of his will?  While Ennis sat on the log , he kept looking over at Jack taking off his clothes off . What's up with that? Jack just waited and Ennis came in. How much control did Jack have? I'd say alot!  seductive? yes but was he concious of what he did to Ennis? Seems to have Ennis pretty much figured out despite the converstion on the hill. Forget what Ennis says he is, the point is ...what's he gonna do...?What does Ennis do? ..exactly what Jack wants him to do. That's Jack's control over Ennis, concious of it or not. Ennis wants and needs Jack.

 Imo, it is all in their minds, what role they felt they were taking  wether it's Jack or Ennis, though Jack did have much control over Ennis without having to say a word. The terms *dominant* and *submissive*  have certain conatations imo, that one had more control over the other in this case ,in a physical sense.. Pychologically it's on a different level. It is more potent, more personally fuffilling.  One can say the whole theme  in the scene of SNIT was to show Jack's role  as the guider, the active one,  but that Ennis has certain personality traits that still  show him hesitant, unsure of  who he his , or why he is doing this,  but  also willing to explore  it further..  Content to have Jack take the lead.

 To me, it is a matter of how much control over  his body is he willing to give at the point of SNIT.  His comfort level. Enough to alow himself to be penetrated?  Well, I don't know,  This is Ennis, the same Ennis who can't hold Jack face to face because it's another  man he held, the same Ennis who swore he was'nt *queer* at first light..  Not to say there was'nt a  huge revelation , but  Ennis, conflicted within himself wether he can accept this  need for another man sexually on a continuous , unconditional basis.  What would that say about Ennis and who he was? Looking at it from the physical aspects of what he shared with Jack, he should have been able to admit he, Ennis Del Mar, was in love with a man , but why could'nt he?
 It's another part of the film that leaves  much open to speculation. Could Jack break through these barriers in one night because Ennis entered the tent??
 On the other hand, it's watch what Ennis  does, rather than what he says, but it's what he feels that matters.  Feel that Ennis and Jack are both very attracted to the * masculinity* in each other, making roles indistinguisable.  I think he entered SNIT having no idea what would transpire , but felt ready to find out for himself  if Jack was the one.To search jack's beautiful eyes for  more of discoveries  of an emotional ,and mental sense than physically.   Did Ennis "bottom" in SNIT?
I really don't know,, I'll concede there is a possility, but I still have doubts.

   Based on their personality traits basically ,Jack is more flexible and open to his role or choices ,sexual or otherwise, a part of his basic personality,, more freely accepting of any role he was asked to be in with Ennis, but I feel that  at no time did he feel unequal , or submissive during sex. in SNIT, he would taken things slow, but that's just my opinion., more of feeling each other out more establishment of certain "roles*, getting  Ennis used to a mutual understanding of what was happening to them mentally, though I feel some kind of sex took place.

  I do  think that eventually Ennis and Jack tried every position known to man , partaking freely  whenever ,or where ever they could get it. Equal in whatever role or position  they chose to take,  but ,... all over a period of time within that summer on Brokeback, then long term, thru the yrs.,  found their preference or niche. God, I wish there was a scene including them making love, when they get older....  Sorry, Rambling on, Just MHO. Thanx.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #184 on: May 14, 2008, 07:40 AM »

....

  I do  think that eventually Ennis and Jack tried every position known to man , partaking freely  whenever ,or where ever they could get it. Equal in whatever role or position  they chose to take,  but ,... all over a period of time within that summer on Brokeback, then long term, thru the yrs.,  found their preference or niche. God, I wish there was a scene including them making love, when they get older....  Sorry, Rambling on, Just MHO. Thanx.

I really love your whole post, AF, but I'll just quote the last paragraph. In a crescendo, I feel the same here. I like how you've dug into what it is to be dominant/submissive, love the note about Jack not *feeling* submissive -- totally spot on. Ennis bottoming is as hard for me to put a finger on as it is to follow trails back to the root of being 'dominant' or 'submissive'. When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas. Thanks again for your post, really gives a lot to think about.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #185 on: May 14, 2008, 07:47 AM »

 In a general sense we can speak of  one of them as "dominant". Some one on top and some one on the bottom, "submissive". The one on top being  thought of as the dominant one.

  But really, just because one is *bottom* , does that mean that one was not in a dominant position?  Passive-dominance? There are so many variations and positions that warrant the lables "dominate "or "submissive", top or bottom. If it was *oral*, who would  be considered dominant? , giver or reciever?  Is either partner submissive? I feel both are giving and getting equally, can't have one, without the other...

Excellent point, aintfoolin.  There is a big distinction between dominance in a sexual role/position, and dominance in a relationship.  They certainly don't go hand in hand, for the most part.  And to be sure, there can be a controlling power in passivity -- what you call "passive-dominance."  This should not be strange or unfamiliar to those of us who have been in long term relationships, where sometimes, we see such a thing as passive control over a relationship. 


Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #186 on: May 14, 2008, 07:48 AM »
I really love your whole post, AF, but I'll just quote the last paragraph. In a crescendo, I feel the same here. I like how you've dug into what it is to be dominant/submissive, love the note about Jack not *feeling* submissive -- totally spot on. Ennis bottoming is as hard for me to put a finger on as it is to follow trails back to the root of being 'dominant' or 'submissive'. When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas. Thanks again for your post, really gives a lot to think about.
:)

Beautiful response, orangetruck.


manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #187 on: May 14, 2008, 08:44 AM »
Jack felt it all along didn't he?  That leash that was around his neck, and Ennis ability with slightest pressure, can bring Jack to him.   Wasn't it the thought of Jack being with someone else was something Ennis couldn't handle.  How the lines got blurred.   When it got right to it, how each man didn't really understand how the other felt, but only saw it thought their eyes.   

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #188 on: May 14, 2008, 04:04 PM »
I love all these posts and feel like quoting them all. Don't worry, I won't. But I will make note especially of what tpe said:

"There is a big distinction between dominance in a sexual role/position, and dominance in a relationship."

Absolutely. And the two do not necessarily have to correlate with each other. I have my own opinions about what constitutes dominance in sexual matters, and I've always been struck by how many people instinctively think that a person who 'tops' is necessarily dominant in the sexual relationship, because I've never seen it that way. But regardless of who has dominance there, it does not necessarily mirror who has dominance within the relationship. And of course sometimes (and I think very much in the case of Jack and Ennis) each person in the relationship might have an opinion as to who is dominant and they don't necessarily match up. It can be so ironic to find, after many years, that both felt the other partner had the control all along. This ties into what manhattangirl said as well.

And finally, like tpe, I just love what orangetruck said:

"When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas."
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babytammy7

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #189 on: May 14, 2008, 04:09 PM »

 In a general sense we can speak of  one of them as "dominant". Some one on top and some one on the bottom, "submissive". The one on top being  thought of as the dominant one.

  But really, just because one is *bottom* , does that mean that one was not in a dominant position?  Passive-dominance? There are so many variations and positions that warrant the lables "dominate "or "submissive", top or bottom. If it was *oral*, who would  be considered dominant? , giver or reciever?  Is either partner submissive? I feel both are giving and getting equally, can't have one, without the other.
 It stuck me that after what had transpired in FNIT, Jack was there, in full view of Ennis, undressing though within the tent, he knew Ennis was still in camp and Ennis watches him do it. Did Ennis see this as an invitation by Jack to join him again? A challenge of his will?  While Ennis sat on the log , he kept looking over at Jack taking off his clothes off . What's up with that? Jack just waited and Ennis came in. How much control did Jack have? I'd say alot!  seductive? yes but was he concious of what he did to Ennis? Seems to have Ennis pretty much figured out despite the converstion on the hill. Forget what Ennis says he is, the point is ...what's he gonna do...?What does Ennis do? ..exactly what Jack wants him to do. That's Jack's control over Ennis, concious of it or not. Ennis wants and needs Jack.
Imo, it is all in their minds, what role they felt they were taking  wether it's Jack or Ennis, though Jack did have much control over Ennis without having to say a word. The terms *dominant* and *submissive*  have certain conatations imo, that one had more control over the other in this case ,in a physical sense.. Pychologically it's on a different level. It is more potent, more personally fuffilling.  One can say the whole theme  in the scene of SNIT was to show Jack's role  as the guider, the active one,  but that Ennis has certain personality traits that still  show him hesitant, unsure of  who he his , or why he is doing this,  but  also willing to explore  it further..  Content to have Jack take the lead.
 To me, it is a matter of how much control over  his body is he willing to give at the point of SNIT.  His comfort level. Enough to alow himself to be penetrated?  Well, I don't know,  This is Ennis, the same Ennis who can't hold Jack face to face because it's another  man he held, the same Ennis who swore he was'nt *queer* at first light..  Not to say there was'nt a  huge revelation , but  Ennis, conflicted within himself wether he can accept this  need for another man sexually on a continuous , unconditional basis.  What would that say about Ennis and who he was? Looking at it from the physical aspects of what he shared with Jack, he should have been able to admit he, Ennis Del Mar, was in love with a man , but why could'nt he?  It's another part of the film that leaves  much open to speculation. Could Jack break through these barriers in one night because Ennis entered the tent??
 On the other hand, it's watch what Ennis  does, rather than what he says, but it's what he feels that matters.  Feel that Ennis and Jack are both very attracted to the * masculinity* in each other, making roles indistinguisable.  I think he entered SNIT having no idea what would transpire , but felt ready to find out for himself  if Jack was the one.To search jack's beautiful eyes for  more of discoveries  of an emotional ,and mental sense than physically.   Did Ennis "bottom" in SNIT?
I really don't know,, I'll concede there is a possility, but I still have doubts.


   Based on their personality traits basically ,Jack is more flexible and open to his role or choices ,sexual or otherwise, a part of his basic personality,, more freely accepting of any role he was asked to be in with Ennis, but I feel that  at no time did he feel unequal , or submissive during sex. in SNIT, he would taken things slow, but that's just my opinion., more of feeling each other out more establishment of certain "roles*, getting  Ennis used to a mutual understanding of what was happening to them mentally, though I feel some kind of sex took place.

  I do  think that eventually Ennis and Jack tried every position known to man , partaking freely  whenever ,or where ever they could get it. Equal in whatever role or position  they chose to take,  but ,... all over a period of time within that summer on Brokeback, then long term, thru the yrs.,  found their preference or niche. God, I wish there was a scene including them making love, when they get older....   Sorry, Rambling on, Just MHO. Thanx.

Awesome gorgeous post AF!!  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I totally agree with everything you said. And you know how I really feel about them having sex when they get older.... (t) (t) (t) (t)


I love all these posts and feel like quoting them all. Don't worry, I won't. But I will make note especially of what tpe said:

"There is a big distinction between dominance in a sexual role/position, and dominance in a relationship."

Absolutely. And the two do not necessarily have to correlate with each other. I have my own opinions about what constitutes dominance in sexual matters, and I've always been struck by how many people instinctively think that a person who 'tops' is necessarily dominant in the sexual relationship, because I've never seen it that way. But regardless of who has dominance there, it does not necessarily mirror who has dominance within the relationship. And of course sometimes (and I think very much in the case of Jack and Ennis) each person in the relationship might have an opinion as to who is dominant and they don't necessarily match up. It can be so ironic to find, after many years, that both felt the other partner had the control all along. This ties into what manhattangirl said as well.


Yeah, Barb, I think that is so Ennis and Jack. They both felt the other partner had the control.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #190 on: May 15, 2008, 02:30 AM »
I love all these posts and feel like quoting them all. Don't worry, I won't. But I will make note especially of what tpe said:

"There is a big distinction between dominance in a sexual role/position, and dominance in a relationship."

Absolutely. And the two do not necessarily have to correlate with each other. I have my own opinions about what constitutes dominance in sexual matters, and I've always been struck by how many people instinctively think that a person who 'tops' is necessarily dominant in the sexual relationship, because I've never seen it that way. But regardless of who has dominance there, it does not necessarily mirror who has dominance within the relationship. And of course sometimes (and I think very much in the case of Jack and Ennis) each person in the relationship might have an opinion as to who is dominant and they don't necessarily match up. It can be so ironic to find, after many years, that both felt the other partner had the control all along. This ties into what manhattangirl said as well.

And finally, like tpe, I just love what orangetruck said:

"When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas."


 Great post, and I agree with everything  you and tpe said too. MG, right on the spot with the the way they saw so much only through their own eyes. Some invisable line there neither will cross, simply to say " I need you. If they say it out loud, some, control is perceived to be lost.

Within the relationship , just on the surface, Ennis appears to have control of things  well at hand, appears to have Jack wrapped around his little finger. He is the one instinctively seen as the dominant one , the one who is strongminded  and able to stand it. He is the one who lays down the law and holds that leash in firm grasp.  Has control, over the pace of the meetings, shoots straight, rides a horse like he was born there, etc, the perfect picture of "masculinity" and "dominance" , he  seemingly has ,comfortably within  his grip, Jack's destiny.

Jack is to  be totally faithful  to him in mind and body or else..  The short leash is working....for him... it's tightning around Jack's neck like a noose..  Restrained and hidden away, like being brought like the good china only on special occasions, once or twice a year.

But say for instance, just for instance,  JACK , turned the tables on Ennis, started changing the meeting times, started  having reasons to lessen the meetings, Jack, the one who is open and accepting of his sexuality,starts to have problems getting time off. Bobby needs him,  Jack, who drives hundreds of miles just to see him for a week,  suddenly begins to have mechanical problems with his truck. , Jack ,who sees an alternative to what Ennis feels is best for them, who has a dream on hold and long overdue, and is willing to carry it out with the right motivation..  Jack, who  has a better idea.  Can even admit, he needs company of a man though he "hardly gets it  from Ennis.  Not that he ever tried it, but He could wreak total havoc on Ennis's psyche.
 What Jack can withold from Ennis if he so chooses, cannot be measured  by who is dominant and who is'nt, but by who will survive when "percieved "dominance is put to the test.

 He only got a little taste of it in the confrontation scene when he thought Jack was quitting him.  Ennis was the one who was unable to handle letting go. He only has control...until Jack exerts his. When  Jack exerts his control, in any way that spells Jack quitting ,or Jack rejecting him, , like yeah sure, he really looked and acted like he was'nt foollin alright, , getting in Jack's  face like a bully, , threatening death on em if he found out anything else., but please really now.....like he's gonna really harm or kill Jack.  Probably FELT like it yeah ,but....

Jack had touched a nerve on a couple  of his major  insecurities that's all, , the saftey factor, and other men. and was'nt apologetic about being  left vulnerable to it..  Ennis acted like  Jack was unknowingly *off the leash* running wild and unrestrained through the Mexican bowerys, ...Not!..and Ennis is  purely  jealous.   his "percieved" control is threatened and challenged.    What  good are  "masculine" virtues  and "dominant" qualities, when within a few moments he is down on his knees holding on to Jack for dear life.  What he needs from Jack comes from within, all the way down to his conflicted soul.

 Below the surface,  he  so desperatley needed that little  soft face stroke Jack gives him in the "no reins on this one "scene by the river.  Certainly, Ennis's story  helped Jack to understand Ennis a little more and bought Ennis more time, while he wrestled with ths "thing", but he had to know, sooner or later, Jack was going to exert his control, and require  a more definitive answer to "for how long".  Jack could have simply said * were not Earl and Rich", challenging Ennis's reasons for not ranching up then , but did he? No , He acccepted for then ,and let it be for Ennis. Jack held his own leash on Ennis's heart  but held it loosely , giving him the space he needed, but  never let go. He gave Ennis what he wanted but, only that in which Ennis needed to live.  his unconditional freindship, and love. He knew when  Ennis  needed that to be enough...for that moment.. Just another example of Jack's "passive dominance" over Ennis.  Thanx.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #191 on: May 15, 2008, 06:21 AM »
Each had dominance in over the other, in different ways.   Ennis dominance as far as the relationship went, "that leash" Jack felt said it all. Sexual dominance, Ennis couldn't resist Jack, but couldn't control him either, all he could do was threaten him. And each used exactly that in the final confrontation, which brought them back to the same place. The strain of the control one had over the other but no desire or the ability to break it.   

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #192 on: May 15, 2008, 07:36 AM »
Jack felt it all along didn't he?  That leash that was around his neck, and Ennis ability with slightest pressure, can bring Jack to him.   Wasn't it the thought of Jack being with someone else was something Ennis couldn't handle.  How the lines got blurred.   When it got right to it, how each man didn't really understand how the other felt, but only saw it thought their eyes.   

It is true that Jack felt he was constrained by his love for Ennis -- most certainly in the later years.   But from the Last Confrontation, it did seem that Ennis was also emotionally dependent on Jack, and Ennis's jealousy was an indication of how strongly he felt and felt threatened by any such thing he would come to know. 

I guess I am leading you to the supposition that both of them "dominated" each other in certain ways -- and that the final confrontation occured because it became increasingly apparent that there was no more room to maneuver around these roles. 

It wasn't just a question of who gets what or who gets his way...


Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #193 on: May 15, 2008, 07:43 AM »
And finally, like tpe, I just love what orangetruck said:

"When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas."


I do think that the metaphor of 4 walls of open canvas is very apt.  There certainly are constraints on any discussions pertaining to their roles; but within these boundaries, we can paint them in a way that speaks to us through our own individual experiences.


Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #194 on: May 15, 2008, 07:48 AM »
Great post, and I agree with everything  you and tpe said too. MG, right on the spot with the the way they saw so much only through their own eyes. Some invisable line there neither will cross, simply to say " I need you. If they say it out loud, some, control is perceived to be lost.

Within the relationship , just on the surface, Ennis appears to have control of things  well at hand, appears to have Jack wrapped around his little finger. He is the one instinctively seen as the dominant one , the one who is strongminded  and able to stand it. He is the one who lays down the law and holds that leash in firm grasp.  Has control, over the pace of the meetings, shoots straight, rides a horse like he was born there, etc, the perfect picture of "masculinity" and "dominance" , he  seemingly has ,comfortably within  his grip, Jack's destiny.

Jack is to  be totally faithful  to him in mind and body or else..  The short leash is working....for him... it's tightning around Jack's neck like a noose..  Restrained and hidden away, like being brought like the good china only on special occasions, once or twice a year.

But say for instance, just for instance,  JACK , turned the tables on Ennis, started changing the meeting times, started  having reasons to lessen the meetings, Jack, the one who is open and accepting of his sexuality,starts to have problems getting time off. Bobby needs him,  Jack, who drives hundreds of miles just to see him for a week,  suddenly begins to have mechanical problems with his truck. , Jack ,who sees an alternative to what Ennis feels is best for them, who has a dream on hold and long overdue, and is willing to carry it out with the right motivation..  Jack, who  has a better idea.  Can even admit, he needs company of a man though he "hardly gets it  from Ennis.  Not that he ever tried it, but He could wreak total havoc on Ennis's psyche.
 What Jack can withold from Ennis if he so chooses, cannot be measured  by who is dominant and who is'nt, but by who will survive when "percieved "dominance is put to the test.

 He only got a little taste of it in the confrontation scene when he thought Jack was quitting him.  Ennis was the one who was unable to handle letting go. He only has control...until Jack exerts his. When  Jack exerts his control, in any way that spells Jack quitting ,or Jack rejecting him, , like yeah sure, he really looked and acted like he was'nt foollin alright, , getting in Jack's  face like a bully, , threatening death on em if he found out anything else., but please really now.....like he's gonna really harm or kill Jack.  Probably FELT like it yeah ,but....

Jack had touched a nerve on a couple  of his major  insecurities that's all, , the saftey factor, and other men. and was'nt apologetic about being  left vulnerable to it..  Ennis acted like  Jack was unknowingly *off the leash* running wild and unrestrained through the Mexican bowerys, ...Not!..and Ennis is  purely  jealous.   his "percieved" control is threatened and challenged.    What  good are  "masculine" virtues  and "dominant" qualities, when within a few moments he is down on his knees holding on to Jack for dear life.  What he needs from Jack comes from within, all the way down to his conflicted soul.

 Below the surface,  he  so desperatley needed that little  soft face stroke Jack gives him in the "no reins on this one "scene by the river.  Certainly, Ennis's story  helped Jack to understand Ennis a little more and bought Ennis more time, while he wrestled with ths "thing", but he had to know, sooner or later, Jack was going to exert his control, and require  a more definitive answer to "for how long".  Jack could have simply said * were not Earl and Rich", challenging Ennis's reasons for not ranching up then , but did he? No , He acccepted for then ,and let it be for Ennis. Jack held his own leash on Ennis's heart  but held it loosely , giving him the space he needed, but  never let go. He gave Ennis what he wanted but, only that in which Ennis needed to live.  his unconditional freindship, and love. He knew when  Ennis  needed that to be enough...for that moment.. Just another example of Jack's "passive dominance" over Ennis.  Thanx.

Sometimes, I think that Ennis was in control only so far as Jack let him dictate terms.  Ennis seemed oblivious to the control he had on Jack, partly because (I think) it wes Jack to allowed the terms to constrain him.  I think part of this is at the heart of what you say here. 

Jack allowed all this out of love, I believe.  Perhaps he should have also fought the constraints out of love.


Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #195 on: May 15, 2008, 08:21 AM »
You guys blow me away. I love everything you've all said here.

I really do think, in terms of dominance or control over the relationship, the irony here is that neither of them ever truly had it, because for them love really was a force of nature.

Ennis may have wished he wasn't gay, or emotionally attached to another man, preferring to refer to their relationship as 'this thing' between them, but he never felt whole without Jack ("The fourth summer since Brokeback Mountain came on and in June Ennis had a general delivery letter from Jack Twist, the first sign of life in all that time" - which I take to mean not just the first sign of life from Jack, but also the first sign of life in all that time for Ennis), but as aintfoolin pointed out, he was desperate to keep things together for them in the final confrontation.

And Jack may have wished he "knew how to quit" Ennis, but he also knew that was just a wish and he too would do whatever it took to be with him, however frustrated or hurt he might be.

Ennis had the control in that he was the one that held the reins on the decision of whether to make a life together, but it was really only the illusion of control, because as long as he thought that was a choice he didn't have to make, he could never exercise that control. Jack had control because at any time he could have stopped following the 'rules' of their arrangement and rebeled against it, but again that's only the illusion of control. As much as people frequently wish he would have pushed Ennis harder, he wasn't able to make himself do anything that might result in losing what he had of Ennis.

So in the end, I think the control really belonged to the relationship itself. The force of nature that was their love and need for each other controlled them both from the moment they met until, presumably, the day that Ennis died. Within that context, I think they rotated dominance, much like when they wrestled on the mountain, one on top of the other as they rolled over and over with no control over their fall.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

babytammy7

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #196 on: May 15, 2008, 10:17 AM »
Ennis had the control in that he was the one that held the reins on the decision of whether to make a life together, but it was really only the illusion of control, because as long as he thought that was a choice he didn't have to make, he could never exercise that control. Jack had control because at any time he could have stopped following the 'rules' of their arrangement and rebeled against it, but again that's only the illusion of control. As much as people frequently wish he would have pushed Ennis harder, he wasn't able to make himself do anything that might result in losing what he had of Ennis.

So in the end, I think the control really belonged to the relationship itself. The force of nature that was their love and need for each other controlled them both from the moment they met until, presumably, the day that Ennis died. Within that context, I think they rotated dominance, much like when they wrestled on the mountain, one on top of the other as they rolled over and over with no control over their fall.

Amazing post Barb!!!!  ^f^ You got me stunned here. Yeah, I think you're right here. Ennis had NOT control over that thing; he couldn't stop needing Jack. And Jack had NOT control, unable to quit Ennis in spite of all his pain. So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #197 on: May 15, 2008, 10:44 AM »
Amazing post Barb!!!!  ^f^ You got me stunned here. Yeah, I think you're right here. Ennis had NOT control over that thing; he couldn't stop needing Jack. And Jack had NOT control, unable to quit Ennis in spite of all his pain. So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love.

Great phrase,Tammy;simple,but direct¡ :clap:  .They were puppets in the hands of love. That's what reflexes the best how they felt and how they're really were-how is anybody who is in love,one the other hand...-.No matter how each one of us was,how strong,sure of himself,aggressive,active,passive and so on;both in a physical and in a emotional sense.There was something that was above them always:the love they felt for each other.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #198 on: May 15, 2008, 11:08 AM »
Oh my God, that's it exactly. Well said Tammy and mpj. <^(  Especially:


"So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love."

And:


"There was something that was above them always:the love they felt for each other."



Thank you for putting it so well. :ghug:
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #199 on: May 15, 2008, 12:23 PM »
%(  Thank you for understand it and feeling it so well¡.   :ghug:
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Raisa

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #200 on: May 15, 2008, 12:53 PM »


I really do think, in terms of dominance or control over the relationship, the irony here is that neither of them ever truly had it, because for them love really was a force of nature.

So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love.

There was something that was above them always:the love they felt for each other.

   Exactly!   Now I'm in a puddle of tears.
”It is said some lives are linked across time. Connected by an ancient calling that echoes through the ages. Destiny.”

Prince of Persia
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"Jack, I swear -"  he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #201 on: May 15, 2008, 01:09 PM »
   Exactly!   Now I'm in a puddle of tears.

Raisa   :ghug:   :^^) 
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2008, 04:08 AM »
Flowerchild comes closest to how I understood it.  In my mind, each man had control but in different ways.  I think that Ennis had the emotional control, Jack had the sexual control.  You may know or not know what control you have over lover.  If you do they may say, "she know how to get to me".  And Jack and Ennis knew exactly how to get to each other.   And something like this after years of dealing with each other in the most intimade ways, of telling each other the most intimate secrets of their lives to each other, of  course they knew what hits to make and what hurts.   The final confrontation was about what hurts. 

Ennis just was standing there biting his nails as he told Jack he moved up the date, he knew what explosion was going to happen, the emotional storm that would follow,and  Jack didn't let slip his reasons for sex with others as an "ooops" moment, but that he wasn't Ennis, Jack knew this one thing would hurt Ennis. Each man had a leash on each other and pulled. 

I don't know if you agree with me that leash was the love they had for each other, and what bound them.  And don't get me wrong I don't mean this in a bad way, but just the way it was.   It's like couples we know in our lives, and we wonder "How in the world they stay together?", but they do, and couldn't really function without each other.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2008, 06:27 AM »
Absolutely, that leash was their love and it was what bound them. I don't take it as a negative statement, just how it was. That same leash kept them constricted at times but also connected to each other, so it could never truly be seen as a negative. Without it, they wouldn't have been anchored. Just like an actual dog on a leash, he may pull against the restraint but it is there after all to protect him and keep him close to his owner. Their love (that leash) both protected and pulled at them, restrained them and freed them.

Sigh, sometimes love just isn't easy, is it?
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2008, 07:34 AM »
Amazing post Barb!!!!  ^f^ You got me stunned here. Yeah, I think you're right here. Ennis had NOT control over that thing; he couldn't stop needing Jack. And Jack had NOT control, unable to quit Ennis in spite of all his pain. So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love.

I agree, it is a very good point.  I certainly think that they had very little control over their love for each other, in the snese that in spite of everything that conspired to push them apart, they persisted. 

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #205 on: May 16, 2008, 07:36 AM »
I don't know if you agree with me that leash was the love they had for each other, and what bound them.  And don't get me wrong I don't mean this in a bad way, but just the way it was.   It's like couples we know in our lives, and we wonder "How in the world they stay together?", but they do, and couldn't really function without each other.


We hear about Jack talking about the short leash.  I think it was after Ennis broke down that he understood that Ennis was also tethered.  They were each other's pivot point, and they barely knew it.


Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #206 on: May 16, 2008, 10:04 AM »
We hear about Jack talking about the short leash.  I think it was after Ennis broke down that he understood that Ennis was also tethered.  They were each other's pivot point, and they barely knew it.


i agree

Offline cowgirlKt!

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #207 on: May 16, 2008, 11:33 AM »
Absolutely, that leash was their love and it was what bound them. I don't take it as a negative statement, just how it was. That same leash kept them constricted at times but also connected to each other, so it could never truly be seen as a negative. Without it, they wouldn't have been anchored. Just like an actual dog on a leash, he may pull against the restraint but it is there after all to protect him and keep him close to his owner. Their love (that leash) both protected and pulled at them, restrained them and freed them.

Sigh, sometimes love just isn't easy, is it?

i totally agree everyone is coming up with some REALLY good points here! Well love is a strong powerful thing...

babytammy7

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #208 on: May 16, 2008, 12:37 PM »
Flowerchild comes closest to how I understood it.  In my mind, each man had control but in different ways.  I think that Ennis had the emotional control, Jack had the sexual control.  You may know or not know what control you have over lover.  If you do they may say, "she know how to get to me".  And Jack and Ennis knew exactly how to get to each other.   And something like this after years of dealing with each other in the most intimade ways, of telling each other the most intimate secrets of their lives to each other, of  course they knew what hits to make and what hurts.   The final confrontation was about what hurts. 

Ennis just was standing there biting his nails as he told Jack he moved up the date, he knew what explosion was going to happen, the emotional storm that would follow,and  Jack didn't let slip his reasons for sex with others as an "ooops" moment, but that he wasn't Ennis, Jack knew this one thing would hurt Ennis. Each man had a leash on each other and pulled. 

I don't know if you agree with me that leash was the love they had for each other, and what bound them.  And don't get me wrong I don't mean this in a bad way, but just the way it was.   It's like couples we know in our lives, and we wonder "How in the world they stay together?", but they do, and couldn't really function without each other.


Beautiful post MG!! I agree. But I wonder if they really told each other the most intimate secrets.....I don't think so, at least not when it's about their feelings for each other. Just my opinion. ^f^

Absolutely, that leash was their love and it was what bound them. I don't take it as a negative statement, just how it was. That same leash kept them constricted at times but also connected to each other, so it could never truly be seen as a negative. Without it, they wouldn't have been anchored. Just like an actual dog on a leash, he may pull against the restraint but it is there after all to protect him and keep him close to his owner. Their love (that leash) both protected and pulled at them, restrained them and freed them.
Sigh, sometimes love just isn't easy, is it?

I quote the whole post. That's love, that was love for Ennis and Jack, a leash to keep them constricted but to protect them too and keep them close. In my country we say: I can't live with you, but I can't live without you neither. You know, that love hurts most of the times, no matter how beautiful it is. My mother used to tell me that "who really loves you, always will make you cry". That's life, that's love.

manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #209 on: May 16, 2008, 05:40 PM »
Tammy,

I'm thinking of the scenes on the mountain, Jack's relationship with his father, Ennis's confessing his virginity, we get a glimispes of these two men,.  Almost touching on what we're talking about.  Jack's emotional need, the sexual awakening of Ennis.  I may be wrong, but I don't know but it seem like those scenes hit at what made them tick.