Topic: First Night In Tent

[Matt Nasty]

Well, I do think that the morning after, jack was probably more concerned with whether Ennis will repudiate everything that had happened the night before -- and shun him (Jack) altogether.   

I knew someone in real-life who was actually "seduced" by an acquaintance with Ennis-like problems, and the acquaimtance later blamed my friend for turning him gay! 

ugh...turning him gay...oh yer cos that can be done... how childish to use that as an excuse for something thats perfectly natural.

[rimasworld]

Well, I do think that the morning after, jack was probably more concerned with whether Ennis will repudiate everything that had happened the night before -- and shun him (Jack) altogether.   

I knew someone in real-life who was actually "seduced" by an acquaintance with Ennis-like problems, and the acquaimtance later blamed my friend for turning him gay! 

Do you think Ennis felt that way about Jack at times? During that time period so many gay people were in the closet afraid to be who they really were. Ennis or even Jack didn't have any positive gay role models to identify with, so neither one of them felt they really fit into the queer mode they were brought up to believe was the only way a person was who was attracted to someone of their own gender. Maybe sometimes Ennis resented Jack for starting that first time even though he "loved" him.

[Ranchand1]

    Just wanted to say..

    Matt even today its only natural to some people.  I would have to say I was brought up and to some extent feel it is unnatural.  You just don't get away from your upbringin so easy.  Something bashed in your skull over and over and reinforced by social attitudes.  I know of the fear and shame first hand.  Always in the back of my mind.  As some of you know my feelings about male affection in general.

      I didn't see the dead ol' bird on in the drainaged ditch with his pecker pulled clean off but I might as well of.  In a way I feel people been tryin to turn me straight all my life.  Never worked.  So I don't sees how someone turns gay all a sudden.

     I can see Ennis confused about what happened.  I don't know if Ennis would a been resentful.  I think that was more where Jack was headed.  Ennis didn't have to go back for more after the first night.  He knew it felt right for the first time ever.  Couldn't stay away after that.  Like finally findin your way home.  But just cause you find home don't mean you cant as easily get lost again. 

[manhattangirl]

Well, I do think that the morning after, jack was probably more concerned with whether Ennis will repudiate everything that had happened the night before -- and shun him (Jack) altogether.  

I knew someone in real-life who was actually "seduced" by an acquaintance with Ennis-like problems, and the acquaimtance later blamed my friend for turning him gay! 

Sure we all have that fear of rejection when we sleep with someone for the first time.  Ennis wasn't going to stop sleeping with Jack.  But he had to let Jack know where he stood on this "thing".  Jack was smart enough to know for them to continue to sleep with each other he had to yeild to the rules Ennis put down.  Remember they weren't "queer", but damn neither of them was going give it up. 

I never thought Ennis blamed Jack because he , (Ennis)  fell in love with him.  I think he did blame Jack for his inability to move no further in his life.   Ennis spent most of the twenty years living for that one week a year to be with his lover, and gave up so much for it, and Jack "seemed" not to care.  JMO

[manhattangirl]

    Just wanted to say..

    Matt even today its only natural to some people.  I would have to say I was brought up and to some extent feel it is unnatural.  You just don't get away from your upbringin so easy.  Something bashed in your skull over and over and reinforced by social attitudes.  I know of the fear and shame first hand.  Always in the back of my mind.  As some of you know my feelings about male affection in general.

      I didn't see the dead ol' bird on in the drainaged ditch with his pecker pulled clean off but I might as well of.  In a way I feel people been tryin to turn me straight all my life.  Never worked.  So I don't sees how someone turns gay all a sudden.

     I can see Ennis confused about what happened.  I don't know if Ennis would a been resentful.  I think that was more where Jack was headed.  Ennis didn't have to go back for more after the first night.  He knew it felt right for the first time ever.  Couldn't stay away after that.  Like finally findin your way home.  But just cause you find home don't mean you cant as easily get lost again. 

I think this is just so beautiful, and so right, and so true for many of us.  Thank you for posting this.

[lancecowboy]

Well, I do think that the morning after, jack was probably more concerned with whether Ennis will repudiate everything that had happened the night before -- and shun him (Jack) altogether.   

I knew someone in real-life who was actually "seduced" by an acquaintance with Ennis-like problems, and the acquaimtance later blamed my friend for turning him gay! 

I don't know if it was so much guilt from Jack, as it was more a feeling  of concern with Ennis reaction to him the next morning.  Jack had guided Ennis through this, that's why Jack "waited" for Ennis to come to him on that hill.    

By "topping from the bottom", Jack enabled Ennis to explore this part of him, and by letting him know, "Its nobody business but ours" ,  "You're not queer, OK fine", "This is a one shot thing, you got it." It was all safety nets.

Jack had to ensure that trust Ennis apparently needed in order for him to go to Jack that second night.  It was about trust.  IMO.

Wow, this forum is constantly coming up with new treasures to understand the movie.  Thank you everyone for yet another wonderful thread.

Ennis also blamed Jack, later, in the final meeting...it's because of you that I'm like this.

Yup. It's about trust. And to certain degree, a matter of moral responsibility. It was Ennis' first time. That's always special. Jack cannot, must not, and did not take it lightly. He respected Ennis to let him take the lead, without pressure, manipulation or mind games. He simply opened up himself, to be vulnerable to Ennis' rejection ridicule or even physical violence. Once he let Ennis knew how he felt, by grabbing his hand to show his arousal, he left the rest up to Ennis. As you said, manhattangirl, that was the only way Ennis would even consider SNIT, and with considerable deliberation by the fire, before opening up himself to Jack.

Jack had a responsibility to be genuine and gentle with Ennis at this point in their relationship. His, at least according to his own claim, was the position of experience and to certain extent, power. Ennis was the vulnerable child that he could have hurt easily.

Trust is never easy in any relationship. Once burned...

[pattyjean]

Yes cowboy and NYC girl:  Since Ennis was already betrothed to Alma, Jack went way far out out on a limb and took quite a risk by initiating sex.  If by the light of day Ennis had become repulsed or pissed-off, Jack would have been in a predicament!  They would have had to finish the summer in agony--Jack from bitter unrequited love, and Ennis from shame and disgust about what had taken place in FNIT.  The look on Jack's face "the morning after" was so full of guilt and even shame about what he had done: He looked totally overwhelmed with concern about how Ennis was dealing with it.  Jack so wanted Ennis to embrace the IDEA, or at least the CONCEPT, of a love relationship between the two of them...
 

[tpe]

ugh...turning him gay...oh yer cos that can be done... how childish to use that as an excuse for something thats perfectly natural.

He IS certainly a very Ennis-like character.  He comes from a very wealthy Chicago family, deeply Catholic, that was grooming him for Holy Orders.  Talk about internal conflicts...

Do you think Ennis felt that way about Jack at times? During that time period so many gay people were in the closet afraid to be who they really were. Ennis or even Jack didn't have any positive gay role models to identify with, so neither one of them felt they really fit into the queer mode they were brought up to believe was the only way a person was who was attracted to someone of their own gender. Maybe sometimes Ennis resented Jack for starting that first time even though he "loved" him.

Well, I initially understood the comment "It's because of you Jack, that I'm like this" to be exactly this.  I had also thought whether Ennis was thinking about this in the morning after the FNIT -- whether Jack had somehow led him astray or what he did wasn't him at all.  This is at the root of why I said jack may have felt some guilt -- because perhaps he felt that Ennis was just drunk or not entirely willing the night before, and didn't exactly comprehend what everything was about...

[tpe]

    Just wanted to say..

    Matt even today its only natural to some people.  I would have to say I was brought up and to some extent feel it is unnatural.  You just don't get away from your upbringin so easy.  Something bashed in your skull over and over and reinforced by social attitudes.  I know of the fear and shame first hand.  Always in the back of my mind.  As some of you know my feelings about male affection in general.

      I didn't see the dead ol' bird on in the drainaged ditch with his pecker pulled clean off but I might as well of.  In a way I feel people been tryin to turn me straight all my life.  Never worked.  So I don't sees how someone turns gay all a sudden.

     I can see Ennis confused about what happened.  I don't know if Ennis would a been resentful.  I think that was more where Jack was headed.  Ennis didn't have to go back for more after the first night.  He knew it felt right for the first time ever.  Couldn't stay away after that.  Like finally findin your way home.  But just cause you find home don't mean you cant as easily get lost again. 

I do agree that first and foremost, Ennis was confused by what happened in the FNIT.  I think Jack understood this also and was anxious to somehow reassure him.  Perhaps Ennis was thinking how something that seemed so natural to him could have evoked the disapproval of society and his parents, in particular.  The fact that it felt and happened naturally must have horrified him exceedingly...

[tpe]

Sure we all have that fear of rejection when we sleep with someone for the first time.  Ennis wasn't going to stop sleeping with Jack.  But he had to let Jack know where he stood on this "thing".  Jack was smart enough to know for them to continue to sleep with each other he had to yeild to the rules Ennis put down.  Remember they weren't "queer", but damn neither of them was going give it up. 

That last statement is quite enigmatic, I must say...

I never thought Ennis blamed Jack because he , (Ennis)  fell in love with him.  I think he did blame Jack for his inability to move no further in his life.   Ennis spent most of the twenty years living for that one week a year to be with his lover, and gave up so much for it, and Jack "seemed" not to care.  JMO

I also don't think Ennis blamed Jack for what happened in FNIT -- although Jack must have thought of this as a possibility. 

And yes, Ennis did sacrifice a lot to be with Jack -- but perhaps he was unmindful of the sacrifices jack made, and was perhaps not undertanding that it was Jack who was trying to make him move on -- by taking the risk of living a sweet life.

[tpe]

Wow, this forum is constantly coming up with new treasures to understand the movie.  Thank you everyone for yet another wonderful thread.

Ennis also blamed Jack, later, in the final meeting...it's because of you that I'm like this.

Yup. It's about trust. And to certain degree, a matter of moral responsibility. It was Ennis' first time. That's always special. Jack cannot, must not, and did not take it lightly. He respected Ennis to let him take the lead, without pressure, manipulation or mind games. He simply opened up himself, to be vulnerable to Ennis' rejection ridicule or even physical violence. Once he let Ennis knew how he felt, by grabbing his hand to show his arousal, he left the rest up to Ennis. As you said, manhattangirl, that was the only way Ennis would even consider SNIT, and with considerable deliberation by the fire, before opening up himself to Jack.

Jack had a responsibility to be genuine and gentle with Ennis at this point in their relationship. His, at least according to his own claim, was the position of experience and to certain extent, power. Ennis was the vulnerable child that he could have hurt easily.

Trust is never easy in any relationship. Once burned...

Lance, you anticipated what I said in one of the last posts. 

I think that after FNIT, it became a matter of TRUST first and foremost.  You said it beautifully here.  From trust follows respect and a sense of mutual understanding.  It is a pity that the trust did not advance to the next stage (the leap of faith entailed by living the sweet life) when they came down from BBM.

 

[manhattangirl]

That last statement is quite enigmatic, I must say...

I also don't think Ennis blamed Jack for what happened in FNIT -- although Jack must have thought of this as a possibility. 

And yes, Ennis did sacrifice a lot to be with Jack -- but perhaps he was unmindful of the sacrifices jack made, and was perhaps not undertanding that it was Jack who was trying to make him move on -- by taking the risk of living a sweet life.

I was just thinking to make it possible for Ennis to even sleep with Jack that second night, he had to declare that he wasn't "queer" and for Jack not to challenge but to concede in order to get the same thing.

As far as sacrifice I agree with you, both made them, and both were unaware to the extent of the other's sacrifice.  It wasn't the sacrifice that was important to them in the end, (I don't think), but the acknowledgement of love for each other, I feel they might still of had a problem with that one point, "Do you love me enough to understand  where I'm coming from?".    JMO.

[manhattangirl]

Wow, this forum is constantly coming up with new treasures to understand the movie.  Thank you everyone for yet another wonderful thread.

Ennis also blamed Jack, later, in the final meeting...it's because of you that I'm like this.

Yup. It's about trust. And to certain degree, a matter of moral responsibility. It was Ennis' first time. That's always special. Jack cannot, must not, and did not take it lightly. He respected Ennis to let him take the lead, without pressure, manipulation or mind games. He simply opened up himself, to be vulnerable to Ennis' rejection ridicule or even physical violence. Once he let Ennis knew how he felt, by grabbing his hand to show his arousal, he left the rest up to Ennis. As you said, manhattangirl, that was the only way Ennis would even consider SNIT, and with considerable deliberation by the fire, before opening up himself to Jack.

Jack had a responsibility to be genuine and gentle with Ennis at this point in their relationship. His, at least according to his own claim, was the position of experience and to certain extent, power. Ennis was the vulnerable child that he could have hurt easily.

Trust is never easy in any relationship. Once burned...

I love you Andrew you always make me think of something else, something more.  Jack should have always kept in mind Ennis "low startle" point.   It was like the divorce scene unlike  the FNIT, if Jack would have waited until the next meeting and not just "show up",  scarring the hell out of Ennis and giving him the excuse to shut that door in his face, no one is more vulnerable than after a divoce,  Jack would not have left heartbroken, in tears, and in doubt, if he would have kept that in mind.  Jack messed up, he should have remembered how his man worked.   

Jack in dealing with Ennis,  had to let Ennis come to him.    JMO.

[tpe]

I was just thinking to make it possible for Ennis to even sleep with Jack that second night, he had to declare that he wasn't "queer" and for Jack not to challenge but to concede in order to get the same thing.

As far as sacrifice I agree with you, both made them, and both were unaware to the extent of the other's sacrifice.  It wasn't the sacrifice that was important to them in the end, (I don't think), but the acknowledgement of love for each other, I feel they might still of had a problem with that one point, "Do you love me enough to understand  where I'm coming from?".    JMO.

I think what was important after FNIT was to allow the other to save face.  But even this I would say was secondary to some form of acknowledgement of love, as you say.  I think this is why they were willing to meet in between -- neither admitting or conceding in the matter of their own individual sexuality and desires.  But yes, this imperfect understanding of where the other is coming from is the seed of their future difficulties...

[atalley]

Wow, this forum is constantly coming up with new treasures to understand the movie.  Thank you everyone for yet another wonderful thread.

Ennis also blamed Jack, later, in the final meeting...it's because of you that I'm like this.

Yup. It's about trust. And to certain degree, a matter of moral responsibility. It was Ennis' first time. That's always special. Jack cannot, must not, and did not take it lightly. He respected Ennis to let him take the lead, without pressure, manipulation or mind games. He simply opened up himself, to be vulnerable to Ennis' rejection ridicule or even physical violence. Once he let Ennis knew how he felt, by grabbing his hand to show his arousal, he left the rest up to Ennis. As you said, manhattangirl, that was the only way Ennis would even consider SNIT, and with considerable deliberation by the fire, before opening up himself to Jack.

Jack had a responsibility to be genuine and gentle with Ennis at this point in their relationship. His, at least according to his own claim, was the position of experience and to certain extent, power. Ennis was the vulnerable child that he could have hurt easily.

Trust is never easy in any relationship. Once burned...

Yeah, and I bet it got really hot inside that tent!   Oh, to be a fly on the canvas.

[hpv]

 
I so adore this picture , you cannot stop thinking,  it looks so sincere and natural, sigh....,
they are already in love...    

[myprivatejack]

 
I so adore this picture , you cannot stop thinking,  it looks so sincere and natural, sigh....,
they are already in love...    

Yes,you're right... It shows the sexual tension and desire between the two of them;and above all,Heath and Jake great interpretations and the chemistry between them.They get to make you believe they wish each other,the same than later,you really believe they're in love.Their expressions,gestures and glances are priceless...

[athena0204]

Notice how in that picture, Jack's hand is open caressing Ennis's face, but Ennis's hand is closed. It may symbolize the reluctance Ennis was feeling at what was happening. In the back of his mind is the fear, the inner turmoil, nagging at him, with Jack's love trying to break him out of that. In the SNIT, on the other hand, Ennis becomes much more relaxed about it, he lets the love more freely, he is less afraid of what's happening, and Jack comforts him, and reassures him by being so gentle with him, and saying "It's alright" so tenderly and lovingly.

[myprivatejack]

Notice how in that picture, Jack's hand is open caressing Ennis's face, but Ennis's hand is closed. It may symbolize the reluctance Ennis was feeling at what was happening. In the back of his mind is the fear, the inner turmoil, nagging at him, with Jack's love trying to break him out of that. In the SNIT, on the other hand, Ennis becomes much more relaxed about it, he lets the love more freely, he is less afraid of what's happening, and Jack comforts him, and reassures him by being so gentle with him, and saying "It's alright" so tenderly and lovingly.

Yes,it's true;open Jack's hand can be a symbol of how he lived their love,also more openly.The rest of the things you say about SNIT are just beautiful...

[tpe]

 
I so adore this picture , you cannot stop thinking,  it looks so sincere and natural, sigh....,
they are already in love...    

A bit of an aside, but this picture reminds me of a similar (but gentler) scene with the 2 protagonists in the movie "Latter Days"  -- a feeling of trying to hold back, but failing to  keep it all in.  I think this is what makes the picture so compelling.

[hpv]

this picture reminds me of.......... "Latter Days"  -- a feeling of trying to hold back, but failing to  keep it all in.  I think this is what makes the picture so compelling.

You absolutely right of course!!!  
They want to but are afraid.. then it all explodes...

[vedrana]

 
I so adore this picture , you cannot stop thinking,  it looks so sincere and natural, sigh....,
they are already in love...    

This moment is one of the most exciting in the movie! Beautiful!!!


And where was I all this time, not knowing about this thread! 

[aintfoolin]

I also love this moment. It shows Ennis's fear , the will, and the love all at once. Jack sees the struggle within  Ennis's eyes concerning his desire for him. Once Jack made up his mind , he grabbed on and never let go. For the sake of their feelings Jack needed to take the approach he did. I'm sure Ennis's appreciated it .

[hpv]

Jack needed to take the approach he did. I'm sure Ennis's appreciated it .

Well Ennis was a 'bit' drunk but Jack was not, not as much as Ennis  anyway, so he knew what he was doing and all is so raw,  but still so passionate and impulsive... and well, you can feel the tension, the chemistry, the fact that it was 'right'. 

[tpe]

You absolutely right of course!!!  
They want to but are afraid.. then it all explodes...

Thanks hpv.  It is the mixture of reticence and naked desire that I find most compelling.

[vedrana]

Thanks hpv.  It is the mixture of reticence and naked desire that I find most compelling.

Naked desire? 

 

[tpe]

Naked desire? 

 

You wicked girl!  *SPANK!*      

By that, I meant something like "out-in-the-open", or "undisguised"! 

[vedrana]

You wicked girl!  *SPANK!*      

By that, I meant something like "out-in-the-open", or "undisguised"! 

I know, but it sounded soooo good!

 

[aintfoolin]

Well Ennis was a 'bit' drunk but Jack was not, not as much as Ennis  anyway, so he knew what he was doing and all is so raw,  but still so passionate and impulsive... and well, you can feel the tension, the chemistry, the fact that it was 'right'. 

Totally agree, Ennis did have a bit of whiskey in him and had sort of a little delayed reaction to Jack's touch. But do we know how long Ennis had been out? He seemed a little foggy at first, but  appeared pretty much sobered up to me once he realized Jack was touching him. There was no question about what had happened in Ennis's mind the next morning, but he did not use the tired  old * I was drunk * excuse. I think the sex only deepened the feelings Ennis had for Jack in the first place.
In the shot, the position of  Ennis's hands say what he cannot verbalize. Loved it.  He already  wants Jack... badly.  This scene is so intense with excellent acting, , I was riveted to the screen.

[tpe]

I wonder whether Jack half-expected that Ennis would use the "I was drunk" excuse the next morning?  Or perhaps Jack half-assumed that Ennis would claim that he remembered nothing of the previous night because he was drunk...