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Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines  (Read 405135 times)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #180 on: Jun 22, 2006, 10:46 AM »
You guys just blow me away! Thank you for those beautiful insights.
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #181 on: Jun 22, 2006, 10:49 AM »
Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?

I wish I knew how to quit you.

Translation: I don't know how to quit you.

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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #182 on: Jun 22, 2006, 10:56 AM »
Don't know if it's been discussed on this thread. But you're absolutely right, tpe. I know some people think of this as Jack's Declaration that he will quit Ennis but I disagree. Even the catch in his voice reveals so much in that statement. And I think directly ties to some of his other 'confessions' for lack of a better word. "It could be like this.....", "Sometimes I miss you so much....", and especially "I wish I knew how to quit you" show a complete vulnerability, a momentary completely open look into Jack's heart. His entire being is about Ennis and I would argue he said "I love you" in so many ways over the years. Ennis just couldn't/wouldn't hear it, but I think that's what it means nevertheless.
Just my two cents.
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #183 on: Jun 22, 2006, 11:20 AM »
Quote from: FlwrChild on Jun 22, 2006, 10:56 AM
Don't know if it's been discussed on this thread. But you're absolutely right, tpe. I know some people think of this as Jack's Declaration that he will quit Ennis but I disagree. Even the catch in his voice reveals so much in that statement. And I think directly ties to some of his other 'confessions' for lack of a better word. "It could be like this.....", "Sometimes I miss you so much....", and especially "I wish I knew how to quit you" show a complete vulnerability, a momentary completely open look into Jack's heart. His entire being is about Ennis and I would argue he said "I love you" in so many ways over the years. Ennis just couldn't/wouldn't hear it, but I think that's what it means nevertheless.
Just my two cents.

I know that Ang Lee toyed with the idea of showing Jack and Randall together -- so as to indicate that Jack was perhaps getting over Ennis.  I am glad that Ang Lee cut out those scenes with Jack, Randall, and the mechanics.  It is more faithful to the story to leave some ambiguity.  Even though Jack's father said that there were plans to bring Randall back with him, that still leaves room for uncertainly.

To have seen Jack with Randal would have killed me.  But perhaps this is the most tragic possibility of them all -- the death of Jack's love for Ennis.

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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #184 on: Jun 22, 2006, 11:25 AM »
And tpe, that's simply a possibility I'm not willing to fathom. Because I also believe that even if Jack Was involved with Randall, it couldn't touch his love for Ennis. He might have felt he couldn't reach out and touch it (much like Ennis at the end of the movie), but his love for Ennis would, I believe, always have lived protected in his heart.
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #185 on: Jun 22, 2006, 11:28 AM »
Quote from: FlwrChild on Jun 22, 2006, 11:25 AM
And tpe, that's simply a possibility I'm not willing to fathom. Because I also believe that even if Jack Was involved with Randall, it couldn't touch his love for Ennis. He might have felt he couldn't reach out and touch it (much like Ennis at the end of the movie), but his love for Ennis would, I believe, always have lived protected in his heart.


I feel the same way.  But for a moment, I consider the unbearable.

It is the greatest and most tragic double meaning that we hold on to here: that Jack will always love Ennis even as he moves on to someone else.

Jake Gyllenhaal's interpretation rings in my ears.  But I cannot fathom it.  I do not want to fathom it.  It kills me.



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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #186 on: Jun 22, 2006, 11:32 AM »
And it would kill me too, so I simply choose to cling to my own interpretation and remain oh so grateful that this story leaves so much to each of us to decide for ourselves.
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #187 on: Jun 22, 2006, 11:32 AM »
IMO and I have stated this numerous times- Jack would have dropped anyone and anything to be with Ennis. I will not believe that Jack could ever stop loving Ennis. Ennis was too much a part of his soul and too deeply rooted in his heart. If Jack knew how to quit Ennis his life would be "easier" in that he wouldn't have that feeling alive for brief periods of time and then having to go back to reality. Jack could never stop loving Ennis. You're correct- I don't know how to quit you.
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“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #188 on: Jun 22, 2006, 11:34 AM »
Yep, that's my story too, and I'm stickin to it!
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #189 on: Jun 22, 2006, 12:37 PM »
Quote from: FlwrChild on Jun 22, 2006, 11:34 AM
Yep, that's my story too, and I'm stickin to it!
I like your story(ies),  FlwrChld, LJN & tpe - and will stick with that, also!   O0    ^f^

He may have wanted to quit the pain loving Ennis brought him, but he still went back to hold Ennis when he broke down, after all was said and done that day.

Jack was no quitter.

Randall was filler.   

Amen.  #)
« Last Edit: Jun 22, 2006, 12:45 PM by MississaugaRed »
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"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #190 on: Jun 22, 2006, 12:42 PM »
Thanks everyone.

Thank God for double meanings. 

"I wish I knew how to quite you." => "I can't quit you because I love you so much."

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Offline edgar

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #191 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:14 PM »
Quote from: tpe on Jun 22, 2006, 12:42 PM
Thanks everyone.

Thank God for double meanings. 

"I wish I knew how to quite you." => "I can't quit you because I love you so much."

Sorry for coming in late to this poignant discusstion. Since the thread is about double meanings, I wanted to point out one little detail: the word "quit" in Jack's speech comes from Ennis's earlier line, "Used to be I'd quit the jobs....can't quit this one." (quoting from memory there; apologies to AP, DO, and LM.)

Those words tell something about Ennis's history with the relationship. With the same word, he's able to tell how much he has in fact given to the relationship and what his limits are.

So no surprise that Jack uses the word in the same way. As tpe points out, Jack cannot quit Ennis. His statement contains two degrees of separtaion from the impossible statement, "I quit you."
1. I wish
2. I knew
So he "wishes" for something--you don't wish for something you have; he doesn't even "know how" to quit Ennis--and knowing how to do something is a long way from finding the strength to do it.
However, the word knew also indicates that it's Jack's head that is interested in "quitting" Ennis. In his head, he thinks it would be better to move on; he'll never have the "sweet life" he craves. Ennis can't even increase the frequency of their meetings to more than "a couple of high-altitude" fffishing encounters "once or twice a year." His head wants to quit Ennis and find someone more emotionally and especially logistically and physically (as in physical presence) available to him.
But his heart cannot, will not, shall not quit Ennis. His heart does not even know how to quit Ennis.

So both partners use the word quit both to communicate their commitment to the relationship and their frustration with it.

Sorry for LaShawning there a bit.

 :c)
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #192 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:17 PM »
That was PERFECT LaShawning, edgar!

And beautiful and deeply connected, as always.  An already powerful scene has so much more meaning than I could ever have imagined ... Thank you!   ^f^
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"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #193 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:19 PM »
Perhaps the phrase summarizes the impossibility of the relationship in Jack's heart: he cannot live without it (Ennis's love), but he cannot live without it (a shared life).

He cannot live without either one.  It is a foregone conclusion that Jack will not live.

 
« Last Edit: Jun 22, 2006, 02:32 PM by tpe »
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Offline edgar

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #194 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:28 PM »
Thanks, MissRed.

tpe, there you go again.   :\'(
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #195 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:35 PM »
Quote from: tpe on Jun 22, 2006, 02:19 PM
Perhaps the pharse summarizes the impossibility of the relationship in Jack's heart: he cannot live without it (Ennis's love), but he cannot live without it (a shared life).

He cannot live without either one.  It is a foregone conclusion that Jack will not live.

 

Cuts to the quick, tpe ... 

It may well have been a foregone conclusion, in the subtext that you've so lovingly summed up,  ... but I didn't know that the first time through, and it almost killed ME!  Now, all it takes is the discussion of his fate ....  :\'(
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"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #196 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:43 PM »
Once again all I can say is WOW!
edgar/tpe/MissRed: just heartbreakingly beautiful! Thanks.
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #197 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:45 PM »
I wish I knew how to quit you.



 I attempt from Love's sickness to fly in vain,
 Since I am myself my own fever and pain.

 No more now, fond heart, with pride no more swell,
 Thou canst not raise forces enough to rebel.
 I attempt from Love's sickness to fly in vain,
 Since I am myself my own fever and pain.

 For Love has more power and less mercy than fate,
 To make us seek ruin and love those that hate.
 I attempt from Love's sickness to fly in vain,
 Since I am myself my own fever and pain.

(Dryden)



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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #198 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:51 PM »
I bow to you, tpe. Always the right words....
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #199 on: Jun 22, 2006, 02:54 PM »
tpe, I add my admiration to FlwrChld's. 

Your mind seems rich with beautiful words, to always find the right ones .. and share them with us ... thank you!   ^f^
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"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #200 on: Jun 22, 2006, 03:06 PM »
It's all in "Wuthering Heights" - when asked if she loves Heathcliff, Cathy replies, "My love for Linton[the man she's going to marry] is like the foliage in the woods. Time will change it. ...My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath, a source of little visible delight but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff - he's always, always in my mind - not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."

That's Jack's love for Ennis, the eternal rock - Randall is just a transient plant on its surface.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #201 on: Jun 22, 2006, 03:30 PM »
Quote from: welshwitch on Jun 22, 2006, 03:06 PM
It's all in "Wuthering Heights" - when asked if she loves Heathcliff, Cathy replies, "My love for Linton[the man she's going to marry] is like the foliage in the woods. Time will change it. ...My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath, a source of little visible delight but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff - he's always, always in my mind - not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."

That's Jack's love for Ennis, the eternal rock - Randall is just a transient plant on its surface.


I pray it is not the adamantine rock in 'Melmoth the Wanderer'.


 
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Offline hpv

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #202 on: Jun 22, 2006, 04:21 PM »
Quote from: welshwitch on Jun 22, 2006, 03:06 PM
It's all in "Wuthering Heights" - when asked if she loves Heathcliff, Cathy replies, "My love for Linton[the man she's going to marry] is like the foliage in the woods. Time will change it. ...My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath, a source of little visible delight but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff - he's always, always in my mind - not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."

That's Jack's love for Ennis, the eternal rock - Randall is just a transient plant on its surface.

What a inspiring parallel  l
 :t)
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"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close,the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."
"I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #203 on: Jun 22, 2006, 04:21 PM »
Quote from: tpe on Jun 22, 2006, 02:19 PM
Perhaps the phrase summarizes the impossibility of the relationship in Jack's heart: he cannot live without it (Ennis's love), but he cannot live without it (a shared life).

He cannot live without either one.  It is a foregone conclusion that Jack will not live.

 

 :\'( Beautifully put as usual.
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“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #204 on: Jun 22, 2006, 05:32 PM »
Quote from: MississaugaRed on Jun 22, 2006, 09:54 AM
as we believe, through the guardianship of the shirts that represent their history and their love.

I may be reaching on these, but as we've come to realize ... there is little in BBM that isn't there for a reason ....   :-\\

I think you are so right, not reaching.  I think everyone involved in BBM -- the writers, Ang Lee, Heath and Jake, Gustavo, Rodrigo (? - cinematographer), all are of a very poetic inclination.  Poetry where every syllable and pause matters -- spare, nothing extraneous.  Saying the most with the fewest words.  I am sure everything came together in that way, the most essential images (and actions, and words) to express the widest and deepest meanings.

kathy
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They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #205 on: Jun 22, 2006, 05:34 PM »
Quote from: tpe on Jun 22, 2006, 11:20 AM

I know that Ang Lee toyed with the idea of showing Jack and Randall together -- so as to indicate that Jack was perhaps getting over Ennis.  I am glad that Ang Lee cut out those scenes with Jack, Randall, and the mechanics.  It is more faithful to the story to leave some ambiguity.  Even though Jack's father said that there were plans to bring Randall back with him, that still leaves room for uncertainly.

To have seen Jack with Randal would have killed me.  But perhaps this is the most tragic possibility of them all -- the death of Jack's love for Ennis.

Oh shit, I can hardly even read that last phrase.  No, please...

kathy
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They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #206 on: Jun 22, 2006, 05:40 PM »
Quote from: edgar on Jun 22, 2006, 02:14 PM
Quote from: tpe on Jun 22, 2006, 12:42 PM
Thanks everyone.

Thank God for double meanings. 

"I wish I knew how to quite you." => "I can't quit you because I love you so much."

Sorry for coming in late to this poignant discusstion. Since the thread is about double meanings, I wanted to point out one little detail: the word "quit" in Jack's speech comes from Ennis's earlier line, "Used to be I'd quit the jobs....can't quit this one." (quoting from memory there; apologies to AP, DO, and LM.)

Those words tell something about Ennis's history with the relationship. With the same word, he's able to tell how much he has in fact given to the relationship and what his limits are.

So no surprise that Jack uses the word in the same way. As tpe points out, Jack cannot quit Ennis. His statement contains two degrees of separtaion from the impossible statement, "I quit you."
1. I wish
2. I knew
So he "wishes" for something--you don't wish for something you have; he doesn't even "know how" to quit Ennis--and knowing how to do something is a long way from finding the strength to do it.
However, the word knew also indicates that it's Jack's head that is interested in "quitting" Ennis. In his head, he thinks it would be better to move on; he'll never have the "sweet life" he craves. Ennis can't even increase the frequency of their meetings to more than "a couple of high-altitude" fffishing encounters "once or twice a year." His head wants to quit Ennis and find someone more emotionally and especially logistically and physically (as in physical presence) available to him.
But his heart cannot, will not, shall not quit Ennis. His heart does not even know how to quit Ennis.

So both partners use the word quit both to communicate their commitment to the relationship and their frustration with it.

Sorry for LaShawning there a bit.

 :c)

Your words are beautiful, and help us really GET what is happening there with their words...then I LOL about LaShawning!  I'm all serious and contemplating...then you trip me up with that.  There must be some psychological term for that.

kathy
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They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline frances

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #207 on: Jun 23, 2006, 12:58 AM »
Quote from: edgar on Jun 22, 2006, 02:14 PM

His head wants to quit Ennis and find someone more emotionally and especially logistically and physically (as in physical presence) available to him.






Quote from: edgar on Jun 22, 2006, 02:14 PM


But his heart cannot, will not, shall not quit Ennis. His heart does not even know how to quit Ennis.


.......raising his hands and approaching  Ennis before the hug........






Thank you Edgar for your LaShawning

Thank you all. Beautiful posts








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My candle burns at both ends / It will not last the night / But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends / It gives a lovely light (Edna St. Vincent Millay)

Offline edgar

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #208 on: Jun 23, 2006, 02:34 AM »
Quote from: frances on Jun 23, 2006, 12:58 AM


Thank you Edgar for your LaShawning

Thank you all. Beautiful posts.



And thank you for the illustrations.  :)
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #209 on: Jun 23, 2006, 07:47 AM »
Quote from: frances on Jun 23, 2006, 12:58 AM



With each poisoned phrase,
With every lash of your venomous tongue,
You dissemble.

Beloved, you cannot hide
The fulcrum of your Heart.

Seek not to deny
With each silent look
The tender meaning
That informs every word
That comes
From the mouth
of your Love

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