Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[MississaugaRed]

Oh I think Ennis definitely hoped he'd see Jack again but I also think that he felt that if he didn't it was his own fault - the full line being "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you was sore from that punch". He thinks that he's driven Jack away because of the punch thrown out of frustration and devastation at having to leave the mountain early....maybe that's even the answer to the question about why Ennis didn't try to contact Jack?
Sorry, way off topic there....sometimes my mind just wanders off without me

Fast or slow, we like the direction your mind wanders .. 

Guess there's double meaning in their actions too, 'cause I like what you're saying about the punch; at the time he just wanted to drive Jack away from him in the "there and then" because of his pain being so raw, doubt if he considered until later that maybe he'd driven him away for good, then he would have worried at the thought like he chewed his fingers.  And I like your connection to the "sore from that punch" line, and why maybe Ennis had feared rejection if he tried contacting Jack.  Everyone else in Ennis's life had life him, after all, likely he figured that punch was reason enough for Jack to be done with him, too ... 

[tpe]

That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad.     Thank you!

It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack.  Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and  later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance.  That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.

When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack.  I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not.  Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I have devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".

I suspect that John Twist sort of understood.  Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was.  That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant.  "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him.  It is almost an avowal of love.

[MississaugaRed]

I suspect that John Twist sort of understood.  Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was.  That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant.  "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him.  It is almost an avowal of love.

Definitely an avowal of love, tpe, in our search for double meanings.   

[FlwrChild]

I suspect that John Twist sort of understood.  Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was.  That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant.  "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him.  It is almost an avowal of love.

Definitely an avowal of love, tpe, in our search for double meanings.   

Yep, no almost about it.

[welshwitch]

And one of the times when Ennis, who's no good at talking about feelings, does try to - shows how much Jack meant to him.

[FlwrChild]

And one of the times when Ennis, who's no good at talking about feelings, does try to - shows how much Jack meant to him.

And sorry to be OT for a moment, but the fact that Ennis didn't know about the shirts makes his journey to Lightning Flat all the more impressive. He took it upon himself to contact Lureen, and armed with her information, go to see Jack's parents and open up the discussion about Jack's remains. The only (?) time he took a non-passive approach and put himself out there. Poor boy. So glad he found the shirts...

Sorry, back to the discussion...

[MississaugaRed]

And one of the times when Ennis, who's no good at talking about feelings, does try to - shows how much Jack meant to him.

And sorry to be OT for a moment, but the fact that Ennis didn't know about the shirts makes his journey to Lightning Flat all the more impressive. He took it upon himself to contact Lureen, and armed with her information, go to see Jack's parents and open up the discussion about Jack's remains. The only (?) time he took a non-passive approach and put himself out there. Poor boy. So glad he found the shirts...

Sorry, back to the discussion...

Not OT, either, FlwrChld, and so true.     The shirts have at the very least a double meaning to us all .... a treasure taken and a gift given.

[FlwrChild]

"A treasure taken and a gift given."

Beautiful MissRed.

[tpe]

I suspect that John Twist sort of understood.  Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was.  That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant.  "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him.  It is almost an avowal of love.

Definitely an avowal of love, tpe, in our search for double meanings.   

Yep, no almost about it.

I can live with this correction. 

[ksxks]

Running through this thread again brings many   :\'(    ...
Another line from early on - "You gonna do this again next summer?" - maybe Jack's way of asking "Am I going to see you again?" or "Do you WANT to see me again?"

With Ennis responding by saying "maybe not" in answer to the prosaic; and perhaps hurting Jack's heart a little at the implied response to the subtext of his question??

Breaking my heart.  "Do you want to see me again?"  "Maybe not..."  Oh I'm going to  :\'(

kathy

[ksxks]

I'm sure of it MissRed.
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.

I know -- that expression is so beautiful, so expressive.  Just a lift of the brows that could say so much -- hope, and a little bit of pleading too.  And Ennis walks off...

kathy

[ksxks]

It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"

4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.

You are so right!  You guys and gals are breaking my heart right now.  I'm in a very emotional BBM mood today for some reason...

Masterful from both Jake and Heath -- Heath's poor Ennis doesn't know how to leave, either.

kathy

[ksxks]

I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack. 

That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad.     Thank you!

It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack.  Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and  later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance.  That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.

When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack.  I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not.  Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I am devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".

Oh woman, you're torturing me with Ennis and Jack pain.  You said it beautifully, Ennis's finally awakening from the passivity. 

And the words Ennis is really saying to Jack's father...  Devastating...yet finally Ennis is really admitting his love.

kathy

[LuvJackNasty]

I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack. 

That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad.     Thank you!

It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack.  Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and  later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance.  That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.

When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack.  I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not.  Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I am devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".

Beautifully said!  :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"
4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.

You guys are killing me tonight.  :\'( Beautiful No Reins.

[welshwitch]

When you think about it, Ennis left the door a tiny bit open too. "See you around, i guess"  ( or "huh") isn't exactly committed, but it might imply that he thought they might meet again. Jack has some idea where ennis is going to be - he's said he's going to marry Alma and get a job on a ranch - given Ennis's character, Jack might guess tht he'd stick to an area he already knew and where alma belonged.

[NoReins]

I think you're right WW - Ennis did leave the door open. If he was totally sure that it was a one shot thing and was over now that they'd left the safety of the mountain then he would have just said goodbye. He had no intention of going back to Brokeback that next summer, but he still said he would see Jack round - how did he think he would see him, if not by keeping in touch in some way? I guess he just assumed that Jack would take the lead in getting in touch, just as he did in everything else....and he really must have pretty much given up by the time he finally did get the card from Jack (blaming himself too)

[Patriot1]

I think you're right WW - Ennis did leave the door open. If he was totally sure that it was a one shot thing and was over now that they'd left the safety of the mountain then he would have just said goodbye. He had no intention of going back to Brokeback that next summer, but he still said he would see Jack round - how did he think he would see him, if not by keeping in touch in some way? I guess he just assumed that Jack would take the lead in getting in touch, just as he did in everything else....and he really must have pretty much given up by the time he finally did get the card from Jack (blaming himself too)

Or maybe that statement was the period on the sentence. Something to say that would end the conversation on a friendly note, never meant literally.

[welshwitch]

Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.

I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.

[FlwrChild]

Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.

I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.

Patriot1 and welshwitch, I think you're so right on both counts!

[NoReins]

Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.

I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.

You hit the nail on the head. Neither feels able to just come out (pun intended) and say "I don't want to leave you, this means too much to walk away from it". If only one of them could have said the words....

[MississaugaRed]

Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.

I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.

You hit the nail on the head. Neither feels able to just come out (pun intended) and say "I don't want to leave you, this means too much to walk away from it". If only one of them could have said the words....

Yes, NoReins ..   

Which is why, even though on the surface "I might be back" and "see you around" could be just pleasantries, in the vein of "double meanings" they served for the words neither were prepared to speak.  "I want to see you again" and "I hope to see you again".  The iceberg theory of BBM. 

[ksxks]

Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.

I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.

So true, WW! 

I also think of how some people have said it seems Jack doesn't care or doesn't show emotion in that parting scene, but I certainly think I see what he's feeling, big time.  It's just impossible for both of them to express at that point and in that place.  Which reminds me of the previous part of the "leaving early" scene, how Jack seemed to not be too concerned about having to bring down the sheep; but I think he wasn't aware at that moment that it would mean he might not see Ennis again.  Ennis is very aware of it, and thus his painful way of dealing with it.

I wish they'd shown that shot of Jack and Ennis next to each other in the truck going down the mountain, when Ennis closes his eyes in pain over having to leave...

kathy

[ksxks]

Yes, NoReins ..   

Which is why, even though on the surface "I might be back" and "see you around" could be just pleasantries, in the vein of "double meanings" they served for the words neither were prepared to speak.  "I want to see you again" and "I hope to see you again".  The iceberg theory of BBM. 

Whoops -- I just posted and kind of forgot this was "Double Meanings" thread.  Thanks for bringing it back on topic.  And your two double-meaning phrases are exactly right.

kathy

[MississaugaRed]

Whoops -- I just posted and kind of forgot this was "Double Meanings" thread.  Thanks for bringing it back on topic.  And your two double-meaning phrases are exactly right.

kathy

Don't sweat it, kathy!  These discussions get pretty fluid, you go where the thoughts take you; the occasional detour keeps it interesting and rich!   And there is always a way to make the discussion tie in to the thread       ... it's all of a piece, anyway.  You thoughts on the subject help flesh out the whole meaning below that "see you around" scene, so thank you! 


You bring up the start of their leaving taking, when they're tearing down the camp, getting ready to bring the sheep down.  Ennis's "that SOB is doing us out of a months pay" would seem to be just an excuse to cover his upset, really meaning "we're supposed to still have a month together up here, I'm not ready to go". 

If it matters, I agree with what you said earlier about Jack then, that maybe the reason he seemed less upset than Ennis was that he was counting on being able to continue seeing Ennis once they were off the mountain; Ennis wasn't able to visualize a him-and-Jack scenario anywhere but in the privacy of Brokeback. 

And Jack had already had time to process the fact that they were leaving early, could formulate plans in his head of how he could be with Ennis again.  Ennis we see getting the message thrown at him cold, he hasn't had time to prepare in private.        Just supeculating.  Sometimes their expression and actions have double meanings, too. 

[welshwitch]

There's also the rest of the exchange, when Jack offers tolend Ennis money ( surely partly at least a ploy to keep them in touch?) and Ennis turns him down flat. Evidently his pride is hurt but also he may suspect that Jack is better off/patroizing him and/or not like the feeling that he'll be under an obligation and will have to pay back money (? in person - I can't imagine him having much to do with banks) and explain why. It's as though he wants a clean break here, no loose ends, and the way he says goodbye by the truck may reinforce this.

[MississaugaRed]

Welchwitch, you do get the impression that Ennis is running away ... be it from Jack or his own feelings.   

I would think too it would be Ennis's pride that made him get ticked at Jack for offering a loan ; it would have impuned his manhood (so to speak) to have Jack think Ennis wasn't capable of supporting himself.  That's not the imagine of him that he wants Jack to carry.

(not to mention Ennis is probably thinking "huh?  Loan??? That's not the point! Point is, we should both be in this camp ... another d*am month!    )

[NoReins]

not to mention Ennis is probably thinking "huh?  Loan??? That's not the point! Point is, we should both be in this camp ... another d*am month!   

Yeah, I don't think it had an awful lot to do with money at all. The month's pay meant very little - what upset Ennis was being cut out of a month of intimacy and love (even though neither would admit it that's what it was) with Jack.

You know, I think sometimes Jack was better at understanding Ennis when he said nothing than he was when words were spoken. He misses the point completely here, but he seems to read between the lines when Ennis strokes his arm in reply to "old Brokeback got us good" and when he sighs as he says "ain't no reins on this one".

Or maybe I'm reading too much into this

[MississaugaRed]

Or maybe I'm reading too much into this

Again I must respond with ... "HUH?? That ain't the point!  The point is, we're here to read too much into this ...  "

I'm inclined to agree with you somewhat on what you just said, too, NoReins.  While Jack is quite good at talking, he seems so attuned to Ennis's body language, maybe listening with his ears throws him off.  Especially when Ennis's words and body seem to be saying two different things ...     Double meanings / opposite meanings ...  no wonder we read so much into everything ...   
Ain't no reins on this one ... (oh, wait ... there you are ...    )

[welshwitch]

Kida always say that about studying Eng Lit - "Oh, that's not there, you're just reading things into it." But if you can see it, and substantiate what you say, then it's there for you.This movie speaks to us in different ways at different times and says different things too. Part of the reason is the script/ss, but part is just because so little is said, and many of the actions/movements are very small-scale, so they repay detailed examination. It's clear that almost everything in NBBM was carefully considered - it reminds me of one of those incredibly detailed miniature paintings in a Book of Hours.