Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[jackster]

The way Ennis's shirt tail was coming out his pants was like he was still nine years old.

Two bits of info may be of interest here: 1. The SS describes the Ennis that Aguirre sees as - "jeans torn, button gaping shirt" no doubt a worn-out shirt from his youth (couldn't afford a new one), 2. Cowboy shirts of the era (60s) were actually designed to fit tighter, be more body hugging, than shirts today. IMO they sure looked good on Heaths "muscular and supple body".

    

[manhattangirl]

Two bits of info may be of interest here: 1. The SS describes the Ennis that Aguirre sees as - "jeans torn, button gaping shirt" no doubt a worn-out shirt from his youth (couldn't afford a new one), 2. Cowboy shirts of the era (60s) were actually designed to fit tighter, be more body hugging, than shirts today. IMO they sure looked good on Heaths "muscular and supple body".

    

  What he said.

[tpe]

Coming back to our heroes clothing,I read somewhere that Ennis had a kind of pathetic look,wearing always some tight shirts,as from a minor size... Bearing in mind that Jack´s shirts seem rather larger,more at ease,can´t this be a metaphore of their position in life?. Ennis seems more constraint,more pressed,less at ease with clothings...and with his own feelings and kind of living,and Jack don´t.

Ennis's clothes were certainly more ill-fitting.  And the symbolism of this is quite interesting.  Yes, I can think of a number of double meanings for this one!

[myprivatejack]

    I agree with you,Jackster,because you know more about cowboys than me... But,if it´s so,why Jack seems to be so at ease,even with his clothings that look always not so tight as Ennis´?.

[myprivatejack]

    I agree with you,Jackster,because you know more about cowboys than me... But,if it´s so,why Jack seems to be so at ease,even with his clothings that look always not so tight as Ennis´?.

Well,I´ve finished by quoting myself;it´s like speaking with oneself...Poor me¡    Speaking seriously,I would like to know if this question of Ennis clothings could be a symbolism of his close,rather "narrow" way of seeing life.The same than,as someone said,the way both of them were standing in front of Aguirre in his trailer;Jack in the middle,sure of himself,while Ennis put as far as he could from both men as he leaned on the wall,shy and closed.Or the way they went to the tavern,with Jack in front,guiding,and Ennis behind,lowing head and eyes,letting be guided,much more unsure than his companion.I always thought that it could me a metaphor of their sexual relationships,but also,could these scenes be a way of showing their respective way of standing before life?.

[jackster]

I agree with you,Jackster, because you know more about cowboys than me... But, if it´s so, why does Jack seems to be so at ease, even with his clothings that look always not so tight as Ennis´?.

MPJ:  Without getting way OT here – I feel that Jack’s clothes were generally much more style conscious than Ennis – start to finish. Reflecting in part his more secure financial position, even when young. Ennis’s outfits (especially early on, but later also) really reflected his poor economic status, his tan Carhartt work coat for instance is much more utilitarian than Jack’s fancy green wool coat with the wool collar. The only thing Ennis had that I see that was at all expensive was his hat. This generally was often seen as the signal of a man’s character in that time and place, dating back to an era before people had cars (or trucks) that set them apart. All Ennis owned was in that little brown bag, everything. The way he carefully flicked out his cigarette while waiting outside the trailer, saving the second half to smoke later in the bar, really indicates how desperate he was financially. When was the last time you saw that? The idea I believe was to illustrate that Ennis couldn’t afford to buy new clothes when his old clothes became ill fitting as he grew into manhood.

The other symbolisms you mention are IMO just as you say, all indicators of Ennis’s general demeanor and regard for himself. Jack, of course had been there in Aguirre’s office before, the year earlier, and being the cocky Jack that he was, he was strutting his stuff and showing off - for Ennis’s benefit no doubt. 

PS – Not sure I know a lot more about cowboys, - but I am eager to learn.

    

[LuvJackNasty]

I don't know if this one has been mentioned.

Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"

I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.

[FlwrChild]

I never thought about it that way. It must have been a bitter pill for Jack to swallow, without even the illusion that Ennis was 'stuck with what he had', instead of choosing not to be with him.

[jackster]

I don't know if this one has been mentioned.

Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"

I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.

Great observation LJN of Jack’s viewpoint. A curious sort of bookend here (maybe) –

After the reunion in ’67, in the motel room when Jack tells Ennis he couldn’t get here fast enough, then asks Ennis “What about you?” – Ennis could only reply:

“Me? . . ah . . . I dunno”.

Then, sixteen years later, in this scene by the lake, in response to Jacks question Ennis tells him about “puttin’ the blocks to good lookin’ little gal over in Riverton” . . .  then goes on to utter a disgusted:

“ah, . . . I dunno”.

He’s still has never figured it out in sixteen years! He’s still as confused or unwilling to accept himself and his feelings for Jack as he was in ’67. He can’t fix it, so he’s just standing it – barely.

[LuvJackNasty]

Excellent bookends! I never picked up on that. And in reading your post, Jackster, this line from the SS popped into my head "...and maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be." I think he's barely standing it, as you said- he has his breakdown after Jack lets loose on him the next morning.

[tpe]

Well,I´ve finished by quoting myself;it´s like speaking with oneself...Poor me¡    Speaking seriously,I would like to know if this question of Ennis clothings could be a symbolism of his close,rather "narrow" way of seeing life.The same than,as someone said,the way both of them were standing in front of Aguirre in his trailer;Jack in the middle,sure of himself,while Ennis put as far as he could from both men as he leaned on the wall,shy and closed.Or the way they went to the tavern,with Jack in front,guiding,and Ennis behind,lowing head and eyes,letting be guided,much more unsure than his companion.I always thought that it could me a metaphor of their sexual relationships,but also,could these scenes be a way of showing their respective way of standing before life?.

I tend to think of the color symbolism here in terms of innocence and naivite.  I guess one can see an aspect of "narrowness" here, although it may also signify an openness borne out of inexperience, no?

There is something child-like in Ennis, especially in those early scenes.

 

[tpe]

I don't know if this one has been mentioned.

Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"

I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.

Interesting point here, LJN!  It makes sense to me.   

[tpe]

Great observation LJN of Jack’s viewpoint. A curious sort of bookend here (maybe) –

After the reunion in ’67, in the motel room when Jack tells Ennis he couldn’t get here fast enough, then asks Ennis “What about you?” – Ennis could only reply:

“Me? . . ah . . . I dunno”.

Then, sixteen years later, in this scene by the lake, in response to Jacks question Ennis tells him about “puttin’ the blocks to good lookin’ little gal over in Riverton” . . .  then goes on to utter a disgusted:

“ah, . . . I dunno”.

He’s still has never figured it out in sixteen years! He’s still as confused or unwilling to accept himself and his feelings for Jack as he was in ’67. He can’t fix it, so he’s just standing it – barely.

I had not noticed this jackster.  Wonderful observation!  I find it intriguing in so many levels -- it certainly embodies a sense of internal stagnation that settled on them and refused to be moved.  A wonderful way of expressing the lack of movement during the intervening years...

[welshwitch]

I think I've always seen Ennis as stasis - he's so reluctant to move in physical or emotional space. He feels some kind of invisible force-field around him which he's afraid to touch in case it harms him, so he pulls himself into the little space where he's safe and cuts himslef off from possibilities, whether good or bad. Jack, on the other hand, is mobile, physically and emotionally - he also seems to me to have the attributes of a shape-shifter. He's open to whatever life offers, too, and is less concerned with protecting himself than Ennis is - fatally, as it turns out.

[ksxks]

Good one, WW.  So together, they could have made a psychologically healthy whole, had they been able to be together and mesh their lives.  But they didn't have that chance to create a whole, due to Ennis's inertia.

kathy

[proulxfan]

Great observations here!! Now I know why I try to avoid these threads: they keep me up all night!

I don't know if this one has been mentioned.

Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"

I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.

I hadn't quite thought of it in this way. How that must gradually have eaten at Jack during the 6 or so years since Ennis's divorce! Then Jackster's bookend "I dunno...", and topped off with Ennis's resonating silence after Jack's revelation of "Sometimes I miss you so much...". No wonder Jack went off on Ennis when he told him that their August trip was cancelled! It was just one blow too many, impossible to bear quietly.

[tpe]

Good one, WW.  So together, they could have made a psychologically healthy whole, had they been able to be together and mesh their lives.  But they didn't have that chance to create a whole, due to Ennis's inertia.

kathy

Thanks WW and kathy.  I agree with the symbolism, and the congruence of one with the other when taken together.  But yes, from such complements rise conflicts, although these still add to the innder life and dynamic of the whole.

[tpe]

Great observations here!! Now I know why I try to avoid these threads: they keep me up all night!
I hadn't quite thought of it in this way. How that must gradually have eaten at Jack during the 6 or so years since Ennis's divorce! Then Jackster's bookend "I dunno...", and topped off with Ennis's resonating silence after Jack's revelation of "Sometimes I miss you so much...". No wonder Jack went off on Ennis when he told him that their August trip was cancelled! It was just one blow too many, impossible to bear quietly.

My thoughts exactly, proulxfan.  I thought LJN's comment quite rich in added significances.

[Dal]

2. Cowboy shirts of the era (60s) were actually designed to fit tighter, be more body hugging, than shirts today.

    

Actual cowboy.   Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm

[welshwitch]

Hello, Dal, and welcome to the forum. What a fascinating pic - strange to see how in some ways a real cowboy looks like one's mental image and in others not. Waterns often glamorize cowboy clothes in a way that seems unrealistic to me - Ennis and Jack looked much like this pic as far as clothes are concerned but I often wonder if their use of the word "cowboy" is partly motivated by a desire to tap intoi a glamorous image rather than the rather mundane realities of traditional cowboy life.

[aintfoolin]

 Your right WW. Hollywood has glamorized the "cowboy" image to tailor made clothing this and that, but this picture amazes me. I could see  Ennis wearing this. In fact I think I DID see Ennis wearing this. This is Not your typical "Rhinestone cowboy".

[Dal]

I could see  Ennis wearing this. In fact I think I DID see Ennis wearing this. This is Not your typical "Rhinestone cowboy".

Thanks for the welcome welshwitch!  Yeah, this guy's the real thing, in a clean shirt I guess.  What is also interesting is the change brought about by 20 years of outdoor work in Montana (he lived there) and maybe too much to drink and smoke.  Here is the same cowboy 15 years later:



"Ennis stayed as lean as a clothes-pole, stepped around in worn boots, jeans and shirts summer and winter, added a canvas coat in cold weather. A benign growth appeared on his eyelid and gave it a drooping appearance, a broken nose healed crooked."

[myprivatejack]

Welcome to the forum,Dal¡ .It´s interesting to see as Hollywood has ,indeed,made a nice cowboy figure,almost as for being in a fashion parade ,what don´t make less credible neither the story nor our boys... But it´s sure this guy didn´t wear so clean as them¡

[jackster]

Actual cowboy.   Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm

Great pix Dal, that's Ennis's brother ain't it?.    A bit O.T. here, but since we’re talkin’ cowboy clothes and gear. An interesting site to visit is William Matthews site. He’s the American watercolorist who did the illustrations for the First Printing of Annie’s book Close Range (containing Brokeback Mountain). I can’t post a link but it’s easy enough to find. Lots of great watercolors of “real” Ennis’s and Jack’s, romanticized just enough IMHO. They look just like what you would imagine from Annie’s description of them in the SS.

[aintfoolin]

Great pix Dal, that's Ennis's brother ain't it?.    A bit O.T. here, but since we’re talkin’ cowboy clothes and gear. An interesting site to visit is William Matthews site. He’s the American watercolorist who did the illustrations for the First Printing of Annie’s book Close Range (containing Brokeback Mountain). I can’t post a link but it’s easy enough to find. Lots of great watercolors of “real” Ennis’s and Jack’s, romanticized just enough IMHO. They look just like what you would imagine from Annie’s description of them in the SS.

Yeah Jackster, this could very well pass for K.E., Ennis's brother, amazing isn't it? Thanks Dal for these pics.

I am struck by the fact that Jack, living in Texas, and having all the parkas, jackets and heavy coats. Why would one buy these living so close to the equator where it's more hot than cold? I suppose he bought them with Wyoming in mind, namely his visits to Ennis. I would not describe Jack's style of dress overly flamboyant after he married Lureen , but he did spice it up more than Ennis frome the red and purple shirts he owned to the jacket he wore in the divorce scene.  Being a Texas business man at this point, I'd say he added a little "spicey flavor" to his mix of outfits.

[tpe]

Yeah Jackster, this could very well pass for K.E., Ennis's brother, amazing isn't it? Thanks Dal for these pics.

I am struck by the fact that Jack, living in Texas, and having all the parkas, jackets and heavy coats. Why would one buy these living so close to the equator where it's more hot than cold? I suppose he bought them with Wyoming in mind, namely his visits to Ennis. I would not describe Jack's style of dress overly flamboyant after he married Lureen , but he did spice it up more than Ennis frome the red and purple shirts he owned to the jacket he wore in the divorce scene.  Being a Texas business man at this point, I'd say he added a little "spicey flavor" to his mix of outfits.

Welocm Dal! 

aintfoolin, I agree that Jack wasn't exactly flamboyant, but I had always associated his style as an extension of his outgoing personailty, as well as a hint of that "mystery" I associate with him. 

[myprivatejack]

Somebody has spoken about the meaning of the train that suddenly "cuts" Ennis figure in the beginning of the movie,while He's waiting for Aguirre.He says it means that he could have taken a train-the train of the changes his life was going to overcome-,but somehow he leaves it pass.And that its image covers Ennis figure because it's like a deep and sudden cut in his life up to that moment.Any comment about the meaning of that train and about the way of showing it?.

[tpe]

Somebody has spoken about the meaning of the train that suddenly "cuts" Ennis figure in the beginning of the movie,while He's waiting for Aguirre.He says it means that he could have taken a train-the train of the changes his life was going to overcome-,but somehow he leaves it pass.And that its image covers Ennis figure because it's like a deep and sudden cut in his life up to that moment.Any comment about the meaning of that train and about the way of showing it?.

Beautiful, MPJ.  Simply beautiful.

[Marge Innavera]

The shots of the train in the opening scene are also a kind of foreshadowing of the technique used later on for the passage of years: brief "snapshots" of both men's lives both separately and together -- e.g., Ennis' quarrel with Alma over her leaving for work early, Jack driving the "Versatile" (ah!) farm machinery with Bobby, the brief glimpses of their wilderness meetings. The way the train passing is shot, we get brief 'snapshot' views of Ennis as well.

[tpe]

Marge Innavera, I do see what you mean.  There is a certain choppiness in the transitions all throughout -- sometimes, we are not so sure how much time had elapsed in between.  And glimpsing Ennis through the voids of the passing train, we get a visual equivalent.  Time seems to stand still for him, but it never does.