Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[myprivatejack]

At the end of the "Dozy embrace scene",we see Jack looking at Ennis who is running away from him in his horse;and immediately,it's joined with the image of a older Jack-the last image of him we see- looking also how Ennis is going in his truck.We don´t see Ennis image,but only his horses in a kind of cage.Can we suppose that this mean the freedom they enjoyed at BBM-the horse running-and the second the all kind of social pressures and personal denials that they must suffer at that point of their relationship-the horses in a cage,like prisoners;two horses,like both of them?.

[tpe]

At the end of the "Dozy embrace scene",we see Jack looking at Ennis who is running away from him in his horse;and immediately,it's joined with the image of a older Jack-the last image of him we see- looking also how Ennis is going in his truck.We don´t see Ennis image,but only his horses in a kind of cage.Can we suppose that this mean the freedom they enjoyed at BBM-the horse running-and the second the all kind of social pressures and personal denials that they must suffer at that point of their relationship-the horses in a cage,like prisoners;two horses,like both of them?.

Very interesting, MPJ.  The image of the caged horses was somehow at the back of my mind, and so your post didn't seem to surprise me at all.  Thanks.  Perhaps I can elaborate on this after further thought...

[myprivatejack]

Coming back to the possible symbolism of the two different ways of Jack seeing Ennis leaving;from the confrontation scene onwards,all we can see between both of them are comparisons;we compare the embrace after Jack's tragical speech and Ennis not less tragical reaction with the dozy embrace.A dispairing embrace,really hopeless,between a man who had lived by hopes-Jack-and in these moments he saw how they're dissapearing,the same than perhaps his love-if not,the possibility of living it fully-;and another man who had never lived for and by hopes because he never hope anything from himself really.
We compare Jack's reaction at the point of giving up and perhaps,cut the relationship with Ennis after so many years of denials and renouncements ;and who reacted with tenderness,however,when he saw how his partner broke down and seemed to lose all control over his emotions and have his shield cracked.We compare this with young Jack's reaction ,completely given to the man he loved,who,by his side,gave him the same love proofs than his mother gave him when he was a child-as they're the two persons he loved him and he loved the most in his life...-;but always taking control of the situation,with his shield well put around him and knowing inside him that when summer was over,their relationship would be also over.I've already spoken about the different Jack's glances when he saw Ennis leaving,but for me the difference lies in that after the dozy embrace,Ennis is running free from his lover,knowing he'll come back by night to be with him again,strong and happy in his horse as their new love then.The Ennis the older,sad and tired Jack watched leaving is running from his lover with a pain inside,not being free from the environment,from the society and from HIMSELF;neither he nor Jack-specially this one-knew really when they are going to see themselves again,even if they're really going to met again-we know after that they NEVER met again for unlucky reasons-.Their love is also sad and tired and they didn't feel free,so there's not a quick horse,but two quiet horses caged into an old truck...Comparisons and symbolisms that go together,IMO,if it makes sense.

[tpe]

Coming back to the possible symbolism of the two different ways of Jack seeing Ennis leaving;from the confrontation scene onwards,all we can see between both of them are comparisons;we compare the embrace after Jack's tragical speech and Ennis not less tragical reaction with the dozy embrace.A dispairing embrace,really hopeless,between a man who had lived by hopes-Jack-and in these moments he saw how they're dissapearing,the same than perhaps his love-if not,the possibility of living it fully-;and another man who had never lived for and by hopes because he never hope anything from himself really.
We compare Jack's reaction at the point of giving up and perhaps,cut the relationship with Ennis after so many years of denials and renouncements ;and who reacted with tenderness,however,when he saw how his partner broke down and seemed to lose all control over his emotions and have his shield cracked.We compare this with young Jack's reaction ,completely given to the man he loved,who,by his side,gave him the same love proofs than his mother gave him when he was a child-as they're the two persons he loved him and he loved the most in his life...-;but always taking control of the situation,with his shield well put around him and knowing inside him that when summer was over,their relationship would be also over.I've already spoken about the different Jack's glances when he saw Ennis leaving,but for me the difference lies in that after the dozy embrace,Ennis is running free from his lover,knowing he'll come back by night to be with him again,strong and happy in his horse as their new love then.The Ennis the older,sad and tired Jack watched leaving is running from his lover with a pain inside,not being free from the environment,from the society and from HIMSELF;neither he nor Jack-specially this one-knew really when they are going to see themselves again,even if they're really going to met again-we know after that they NEVER met again for unlucky reasons-.Their love is also sad and tired and they didn't feel free,so there's not a quick horse,but two quiet horses caged into an old truck...Comparisons and symbolisms that go together,IMO,if it makes sense.

Beautiful, MPJ. 

I do think that the final embrace was one of quiet desperation, as Thoreau would have called it.  The contrast with the Dozy embrace is stunning.  It was a magnificent juxtaposition, and -- for me -- the highlight of the entire emotional struggle between them.

I do think that the juxtaposition was very deliberate.  It certainly was not especially implied in the ss, so I credit the movie for this entirely.  For me, it was inescapable that we are drawn to see symbolism in the contrasting embraces.  Such a comparison hits you in the gut.

[myprivatejack]

Beautiful, MPJ. 

I do think that the final embrace was one of quiet desperation, as Thoreau would have called it.  The contrast with the Dozy embrace is stunning.  It was a magnificent juxtaposition, and -- for me -- the highlight of the entire emotional struggle between them.

I do think that the juxtaposition was very deliberate.  It certainly was not especially implied in the ss, so I credit the movie for this entirely.  For me, it was inescapable that we are drawn to see symbolism in the contrasting embraces.  Such a comparison hits you in the gut.

Thanks,Thomas. Yes,I also think that the juxtaposition of two such different scenes was deliberate;by them,we can see the progressive journey to a point of no-return in their relationship, in that their inner struggle between their feelings and the answer each one of them were giving ,had to explode.The difference between all the hopes,illusions and freedom feeling they had in their private paradise up in BBM-reflected in glances,embraces ,faces and general behaviour-and the end of a project of living hold by Jack-and secretly by Ennis-during so many years...Hence,for me it's a clear symbolism in the last image of Ennis Jack sees,both in dozy embrace scene and the confrontation one: free,strong and full with love,hopes and illusions,running in a quick horse first; caged in an old truck that runs slowly,as their emotions are caged into their fears,aged and hopeless,in the last scene.

[tpe]

Thanks,Thomas. Yes,I also think that the juxtaposition of two such different scenes was deliberate;by them,we can see the progressive journey to a point of no-return in their relationship, in that their inner struggle between their feelings and the answer each one of them were giving ,had to explode.The difference between all the hopes,illusions and freedom feeling they had in their private paradise up in BBM-reflected in glances,embraces ,faces and general behaviour-and the end of a project of living hold by Jack-and secretly by Ennis-during so many years...Hence,for me it's a clear symbolism in the last image of Ennis Jack sees,both in dozy embrace scene and the confrontation one: free,strong and full with love,hopes and illusions,running in a quick horse first; caged in an old truck that runs slowly,as their emotions are caged into their fears,aged and hopeless,in the last scene.

Yes, we should not forget that this juxtaposition is seen through Jacjk's eyes.  The symbolism must have been deeply personal for him.  And yest, it must be a comfort to us that the short story implies that perhaps nothing had really changed between the Dozy Embrace and that final desperate huddle.  I know that some of us would see this lack of change as a terrible loss, but think of what had been maintained for almost 20 years.  I think Jack's dream of love is condensed in that beautiful though imperfect Dozy embrace.  The fact that he remembers it after nearly 20 years at the time of desperation and see that nothing had changed that much should console us in that the dream has remained largely intact, even if all hope had passed.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, we should not forget that this juxtaposition is seen through Jacjk's eyes.  The symbolism must have been deeply personal for him.  And yest, it must be a comfort to us that the short story implies that perhaps nothing had really changed between the Dozy Embrace and that final desperate huddle. I know that some of us would see this lack of change as a terrible loss, but think of what had been maintained for almost 20 years.  I think Jack's dream of love is condensed in that beautiful though imperfect Dozy embrace.  The fact that he remembers it after nearly 20 years at the time of desperation and see that nothing had changed that much should console us in that the dream has remained largely intact, even if all hope had passed.

If I've understood well enough what you mean,I must say I don't see it in the same way than you.I mean,we see through Jack eyes how their relationship has changed from one plenty of illusions and hopes to another that has no possibility of recovering them,no way.For me the fact that he remembers the Dozy embrace reveals precisely that everything has changed much more than he can stand;it's the comparison between happy times and despaired,hopeless times he was living in that moment.Perhaps the dream remained intact in his mind and soul-perhaps also in Ennis´but in a much unconscious way-because sometimes a dream is the only thing we can hold on to when reality is too hard.And this hard reality of their relationship doesn't console me too much as a spectator of a progressive destruction of a hope,of a dream,although not of a love...

[jackster]

Interesting discussion tpe & mpj. Heavy symbolism here no matter how you see it with these embraces. It occured to me in reading your posts about the two embraces of how they exactly mirror the shirts. Coincidence?

Dozy Embrace: Ennis embraces Jack.
Final Embrace: Jack embraces Ennis.

Shirts in Jack's closet: Jack's embraces Ennis's
Shirts in Ennis's closet: Ennis's embraces Jack's.

[tpe]

If I've understood well enough what you mean,I must say I don't see it in the same way than you.I mean,we see through Jack eyes how their relationship has changed from one plenty of illusions and hopes to another that has no possibility of recovering them,no way.For me the fact that he remembers the Dozy embrace reveals precisely that everything has changed much more than he can stand;it's the comparison between happy times and despaired,hopeless times he was living in that moment.Perhaps the dream remained intact in his mind and soul-perhaps also in Ennis´but in a much unconscious way-because sometimes a dream is the only thing we can hold on to when reality is too hard.And this hard reality of their relationship doesn't console me too much as a spectator of a progressive destruction of a hope,of a dream,although not of a love...

Interesting MPJ.  I understand what you say here and cannot argue that it is unlikely.  I must admit that I did feel the same way about this early on, and I believe many critics and commentators do agree with you.  But I just felt after a while that the remembrance of the Dozy Embrace acted as a sort of comfort to Jack at that dark hour when all was lost -- reminding him that although they have not gone very far beyond what they had achieved in BBM, the love they shared -- imperfect though it may be -- remained intact.

[tpe]

Interesting discussion tpe & mpj. Heavy symbolism here no matter how you see it with these embraces. It occured to me in reading your posts about the two embraces of how they exactly mirror the shirts. Coincidence?

Dozy Embrace: Ennis embraces Jack.
Final Embrace: Jack embraces Ennis.

Shirts in Jack's closet: Jack's embraces Ennis's
Shirts in Ennis's closet: Ennis's embraces Jack's.

I agree with these dichotomies, jackster.  But I like the way you juxtapose the first pair with the final pair.  I do think that the sense of give and take in the 2 scenes you refer to are deliberate, as if to remind us that their lives served as mirrors of the other.  There is so much mirroring used in the film -- probably much more so than in the original ss.  It is surely a poetic device that served the film version very beautifully.

[jackster]

. . .  There is so much mirroring used in the film -- probably much more so than in the original ss.  It is surely a poetic device that served the film version very beautifully.

Yes, I've thought that the movies' use of that mirroring techniques was in large part due to Ang and his "eastern" or Oriental background. I'm not sure there's much rationality to my thinking here,  but it seems that way to me. The whole yin/yang way of looking at the world.

[tpe]

Yes, I've thought that the movies' use of that mirroring techniques was in large part due to Ang and his "eastern" or Oriental background. I'm not sure there's much rationality to my thinking here,  but it seems that way to me. The whole yin/yang way of looking at the world.

Exactly.  It is a very Buddhist thing -- what is called "The Great Mirror", which implies both dynamics, transcience, duality, and illusion, as well as enlightenment and awakening. 

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I've thought that the movies' use of that mirroring techniques was in large part due to Ang and his "eastern" or Oriental background. I'm not sure there's much rationality to my thinking here,  but it seems that way to me. The whole yin/yang way of looking at the world.

Beautiful examples,Jackster.In the end,it's what both of them are for each other and in their respective way of seeing and living life; yin/yang.Different but complementaries.

[myprivatejack]

Another double meaning that it's more an scene of observation,happens when Jack is complaining about the kind of job he must do in the mountain.When he ends by saying that Aguirre has no right to make them do something against the law,we see an Ennis close shoot; he seems worried about what Jack is saying in that very moment,looking at the space as if he's thinking about it for a second.
I've always wondered why they show him in this way then,and if maybe what he's thinking about is his regret of be making something illegal.But I'm not referring only to Aguirre's orders; maybe he's already fighting against his own illegal "something"?.I mean,he's already feeling something strange inside him for Jack,something "against the rules and the law";the kind of law his father had showed him how hard could be with these who dared to break it...Could it be so?.

[orangetruck]

Another double meaning that it's more an scene of observation,happens when Jack is complaining about the kind of job he must do in the mountain.When he ends by saying that Aguirre has no right to make them do something against the law,we see an Ennis close shoot; he seems worried about what Jack is saying in that very moment,looking at the space as if he's thinking about it for a second.
I've always wondered why they show him in this way then,and if maybe what he's thinking about is his regret of be making something illegal.But I'm not referring only to Aguirre's orders; maybe he's already fighting against his own illegal "something"?.I mean,he's already feeling something strange inside him for Jack,something "against the rules and the law";the kind of law his father had showed him how hard could be with these who dared to break it...Could it be so?.

Swooping in this thread real fast here. I have to say I agree that it's possible. I liked the mixed emotion reaction Ennis had in this scene. And then he was ever willing to trade duties with Jack, and I noticed it was very auto-pilot of him. I think while he was thinking of those deeper 'laws', he was then systematically speaking in accord to how the stoic inside him would:
I'd be happy to switch with you = him brushing off the feelings he'd been developing for Jack by not reading into anything but the practical laws at hand of getting the boring job done.
Had he questioned Jack further I think he would have become a world less comfortable, and apt to offend Jack...

[tpe]

I agree with you, MPJ, and I love orangetruck's overlay to what you said: that Ennis was perhaps thinking about "deeper laws" that were about to be broken. 

Perhaps the offer of switching with Jack was also a tacit way of esposing his increasing affection for Jack, no?  And Jacvk's knowing smile as he rode off told me that Jack tacitly understood.

[myprivatejack]

I agree with you, MPJ, and I love orangetruck's overlay to what you said: that Ennis was perhaps thinking about "deeper laws" that were about to be broken. 

Perhaps the offer of switching with Jack was also a tacit way of esposing his increasing affection for Jack, no?  And Jacvk's knowing smile as he rode off told me that Jack tacitly understood.

Of course,offering himself to switch roles with Jack was due to his increasing affection for him;the same than ordering soup,the killing of the elk for not keep on eating beans...Ennis knew fairly way that all these facts weren´t only a mere way of helping themselves and show friendship for someone you get on well with...I think that for this reason he was thoughtful by hearing this words "...against the law" because he knew he was breaking social rules only for feeling this for his fellow.More than the illegal tasks Aguirre ordered them to do,fairly more...What I don't know is if this Jack's smile shows that he knew this inner struggle,or only that he realised Ennis was feeling a progressive approchment to him only in a friendly way.

[tpe]

Of course,offering himself to switch roles with Jack was due to his increasing affection for him;the same than ordering soup,the killing of the elk for not keep on eating beans...Ennis knew fairly way that all these facts weren´t only a mere way of helping themselves and show friendship for someone you get on well with...I think that for this reason he was thoughtful by hearing this words "...against the law" because he knew he was breaking social rules only for feeling this for his fellow.More than the illegal tasks Aguirre ordered them to do,fairly more...What I don't know is if this Jack's smile shows that he knew this inner struggle,or only that he realised Ennis was feeling a progressive approchment to him only in a friendly way.

I think it was the latter.  I don't know whether at this point, Jack knew about the depth of Ennis's inner struggles...

[myprivatejack]

I think it was the latter.  I don't know whether at this point, Jack knew about the depth of Ennis's inner struggles...

Or perhaps he smiled because he thought he was in the right way to obtain a greater closeness with Ennis;as a matter of fact,all his reactions and behaviours went in this direction from the very moment he met him because it was also the very moment he liked him.

[orangetruck]

I agree with you, MPJ, and I love orangetruck's overlay to what you said: that Ennis was perhaps thinking about "deeper laws" that were about to be broken. 

Perhaps the offer of switching with Jack was also a tacit way of esposing his increasing affection for Jack, no?  And Jacvk's knowing smile as he rode off told me that Jack tacitly understood.

Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
     I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?

[babytammy7]

Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
     I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?

I just wanna say that your words are totaly beautiful and I believe in everthing you said.   

[orangetruck]

Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
     I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?

I hope you Brokies don't mind that I post this link to a previous editing project here. Given the content/title of the video I thought it would be suitable to the concept of these recent messages. I think the percussion is incredible and says something:



 

[aintfoolin]

 Double meanings? How bout  the reunion scene's " Jack F-kin Twist"....self explainatory imo.

[myprivatejack]

Double meanings? How bout  the reunion scene's " Jack F-kin Twist"....self explainatory imo.

Well,I can't speak here because I don't know the complete meaning of the word "f@#$ng" applied to a person.I guess it's not the same than when we apply it in Spanish.  Here we could say someone is mocky,bad,intelligent but in the most evil meaning...the same that "jodido"-the equivalent-means also"to be in very bad state".Here Ennis could mean implicitly that Jack has been mean or bad because he had make him suffering with his absence.
The correspondent verb to this adjective has another meaning,however,in rapport with what both of them wanted to do as soon as they saw each other.

[aintfoolin]

 It's a very interesting word, but at that point, I don't think Ennis thought Jack had a mean or evil bone in his body. American slang has givin many meanings  to it also. here it could be a noun, verb, adverb, and adjective. In this case, i was thinking more along the lines of your last sentence . "Jack F-ckin Twist" could be a name, title or simply a description. A  group of words that expresses a complete thought. A complete sentence from Ennis, in just one way he sees Jack?

[tpe]

Or perhaps he smiled because he thought he was in the right way to obtain a greater closeness with Ennis;as a matter of fact,all his reactions and behaviours went in this direction from the very moment he met him because it was also the very moment he liked him.

Yes, perhaps even that smile had a double meaning -- that Jack was pleased that he no longer had to go up to the sheep, and that Jack was pleased that everything was going as "planned"...

[tpe]

Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
     I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?

Thanks orangetruck.  The complementarity between Ennis and Jack do seem to shadow the host of double meanings we have discussed in this film, no? 

As for the "inside" and "outside" dichotomy, I would venture to observe that these also are open to a double meaning interpretation.  For example, you seem to indicate that the "outside" can be interpreted in terms of the outside world, or the "other" (in this case, Jack, I would assume.)   

[tpe]

It's a very interesting word, but at that point, I don't think Ennis thought Jack had a mean or evil bone in his body. American slang has givin many meanings  to it also. here it could be a noun, verb, adverb, and adjective. In this case, i was thinking more along the lines of your last sentence . "Jack F-ckin Twist" could be a name, title or simply a description. A  group of words that expresses a complete thought. A complete sentence from Ennis, in just one way he sees Jack?

I had thought that the term was used specifically as a mark of affection.   But perhaps I simply missed the obvious...
 

[orangetruck]

Thanks orangetruck.  The complementarity between Ennis and Jack do seem to shadow the host of double meanings we have discussed in this film, no? 

As for the "inside" and "outside" dichotomy, I would venture to observe that these also are open to a double meaning interpretation.  For example, you seem to indicate that the "outside" can be interpreted in terms of the outside world, or the "other" (in this case, Jack, I would assume.)   

Ye'sir!  

Very complimentary indeed. Ennis/Jack - Yin/Yang.
Earlier on I had mostly seen Jack as the Yin to Ennis, very much what he needed, but saw Ennis as an object for Jack to crave; underneath this pretentious idea I had of them did sit the full Y/Y idea, however. It's just that it was very easily foreshadowed by Ennis' darkened need to both be introduced and then given love. Perhaps Jack had too much to figure out to realize he needed Ennis the way he was. Had he given up trying to 'fix' the problem, though, he may have been minimized to seeing the outright symbol - to seeing black and white. And that is where I find the catch 22. In my mind both boys clearly needed steering from the black and white they'd grown up in..

[tpe]

Ye'sir!  

Very complimentary indeed. Ennis/Jack - Yin/Yang.
Earlier on I had mostly seen Jack as the Yin to Ennis, very much what he needed, but saw Ennis as an object for Jack to crave; underneath this pretentious idea I had of them did sit the full Y/Y idea, however. It's just that it was very easily foreshadowed by Ennis' darkened need to both be introduced and then given love. Perhaps Jack had too much to figure out to realize he needed Ennis the way he was. Had he given up trying to 'fix' the problem, though, he may have been minimized to seeing the outright symbol - to seeing black and white. And that is where I find the catch 22. In my mind both boys clearly needed steering from the black and white they'd grown up in..

Well, IMO, your idea was certainly mirrored in so many details in the film.  And yes, the choice of colors (dark for Jack, light for Ennis) did seem to support the yin/yang analogy.