Topic: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage

[MississaugaRed]

Part of the problem is that a pattern of absence has already been set by the reunion - then Jack persuades Ennis to go off into the mountains with him for a few days and that becomes the paradigm - contact, brief escape, back to normal life. Ennis doesn't want to break that pattern and Jack doesn;t dare to, in case he loses Ennis entirely. So they stick to it for years and get no further, just repeat the same thing over and over.

The four years have a lot to answer for, not least the build-up of feeling that leads to the explosive reunion kiss and the rush to the motel. The intensity of that is something they recreate, presumably, on subsequent occasions - this is referred to in the ss - and that's part of what keeps them together. There is a sense in which that four-year gap sabotages any chance the relationship might have had of developing and changing.   

Thanks, welchwitch ... when you put it like this it helps me understand my own vague feelings about the four year hiatus.  That during that time their characters become more immutable, as it were, less open to change ... which is only a natural part of the "growing up" process, anyway, imo, but in their case ends up having tragic results  ...     the four year gap let Ennis evolve into a shell that was contrary to the nature it contained, in a sense.

*there are those circles again ... 

[Patriot1]

True, scribe, Ennis doesn't often stir himself to take the initative.   

But he's pretty darn good at holding a firm line, though.  When he sets the limits for how his affair with Jack will be conducted (living together ... no way!  get together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere) Jack has no choice but to try to live best he can within those Ennis rules.  Could be that one or the other of them made the decision about when the meetings were going to take place each year.  We only see a few cards so can't really tell the pattern after the first time.  Since Ennis maybe had a harder time getting time off work, could well have been that he would send the initial "let's get together on this date" kind of card at times over the years ...   

I am going to disagree with you here MississaugaRed and here is why. I think Jack was the one to set the dates of their meetings because it was always Ennis that was quitting jobs when he couldn't get the time off. If it was he who was setting the dates he would not have to quit the job, he would in all likelyhood, already have the time off.

However, we also know that it was Ennis that told Jack he would be available in August but later changed it to November.

Hmmmmm...is this another flaw in the writing?

[MississaugaRed]

True, scribe, Ennis doesn't often stir himself to take the initative.   

But he's pretty darn good at holding a firm line, though.  When he sets the limits for how his affair with Jack will be conducted (living together ... no way!  get together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere) Jack has no choice but to try to live best he can within those Ennis rules.  Could be that one or the other of them made the decision about when the meetings were going to take place each year.  We only see a few cards so can't really tell the pattern after the first time.  Since Ennis maybe had a harder time getting time off work, could well have been that he would send the initial "let's get together on this date" kind of card at times over the years ...   

I am going to disagree with you here MississaugaRed and here is why. I think Jack was the one to set the dates of their meetings because it was always Ennis that was quitting jobs when he couldn't get the time off. If it was he who was setting the dates he would not have to quit the job, he would in all likelyhood, already have the time off.

However, we also know that it was Ennis that told Jack he would be available in August but later changed it to November.

Hmmmmm...is this another flaw in the writing?

Don't think it's a flaw in the writing, Patriot1, I imagine they had to get back and forth to each other any number of times to firm things up. That last time, they had already said about getting together in August, before Ennis changed it, as you mentioned.         You'd think they had planned that before the start of that last trip, then, since obviously Ennis wouldn't have said August during that last camping trip knowing full well he couldn't make it and would have to move it to November after.  For all we know, they made tenative plans each time for several upcoming visits, and firmed specifics closer to the time of each trip.

We really can't know who sent cards when for the whole of the 16 years, but I still think they both would have had a hand in picking dates, personally.  Guess it would be hard in ranching to get any time off, so quitting becomes an option regardless of who is doing the first set up of dates ...       

So we can agree to disagree on that one re cards,      but it was a messy way to try to communicate, for darn sure ..     phones and e-mails and I can hardly co-ordinate dinner for two couples ...   

wouldn't write each other for four years, then spend the next 16 burning up the postage service ... all to help them live by Ennis rules once they've reunited, either way ...

[welshwitch]

I assumed they had a sort of regular pattern of meeting three times a year - evidently you couldn't camp out in February, hence May, August and November. Presumably Jack had an easier time getting away - he worked for the family firm, for starters, and had the excuse of needing to go and visit the folks, whom Lureen never met, so he could tell what tales he liked about Lightning Flat.

There's a way in which I rather like the postcards. They are unsophisticated, and Ennis in particular seems to me to have very little to do with modern forms of communication - he's even ill at ease on the phone, and I don't think that's entirely to do with the contentof the call. They are innocuous and in a way universal - there was a time when everyone sent postcards, even locally, but far more when on holiday. And that links with the rare meetings - they have something of the holiday about them. (Won't get into Bakhtin and the carnivalesque here but it must be relevant somehow.)

The other thing is that they are fragile and ephemeral - which represents the fragility of the communications link between them when they are apart - in the age of email and instant messaging and texts the whole thing would have been massively less effective.

[tpe]

Which leads me to speculate as to whatever happened to the postcard that broke the silence of 4 years (as well as the other postcards).  I assume that Ennis just threw them away.  I don't think he was into keepsakes -- up until the very end, that is.

[NoReins]

Which leads me to speculate as to whatever happened to the postcard that broke the silence of 4 years (as well as the other postcards).  I assume that Ennis just threw them away.  I don't think he was into keepsakes -- up until the very end, that is.

Lots of fanfics I've read have Ennis keeping the cards - and Jack finding them in much the same way as Ennis finds the shirts (although not after Ennis' death obviously) Me? Ahdunno I have a sneaky suspicion that he would have kept them, based solely on the way that he caresses the first card when it arrives, treasuring it almost. But nothing is revealed in either the movie or the short story so maybe that's just the romantic in me creeping out again

[tpe]

Lots of fanfics I've read have Ennis keeping the cards - and Jack finding them in much the same way as Ennis finds the shirts (although not after Ennis' death obviously) Me? Ahdunno I have a sneaky suspicion that he would have kept them, based solely on the way that he caresses the first card when it arrives, treasuring it almost. But nothing is revealed in either the movie or the short story so maybe that's just the romantic in me creeping out again

NoReins, I love the romantic in you. 

What can be more romantic that waiting for 4 d*mn years to see each other?

OOT: Can you PM me links to some of the best of the fanfics that deal with this?

[aintfoolin]

Did'nt these two ever hear of a phone?  Postcards are fine, but It becomes a privacy issue at some point.Which postcard do we see in the closet at the end ? the first one or the last?

[welshwitch]

In the ss we're told Ennis goes and buys a postcard of Bm, after the local shop-keeper orders one specially for him. I don't think any of the cards Jack sent were of BBM and Ennis sent plain ones.

As far as a phone goes, Ennis disn't apparently have one - he's using a payphone for the phone-call to Lureen, and Jack presumably couldn;t have used a phone at home or in the Newsome business to phone Ennis even if he could have done. Although my parents always hada phone - my fathr was businessman and needed one - there were plenty of people in the fifties and sixties who didn't have phones, and making long-distance calls was a hassle, even in the States, or so we found when we were there first in 1966.

[aintfoolin]

Nonetheless, both had access. Discretion. discretion, discretion. Having Alma read your postcards are not bein dicreet. Opens up too many questions and suspicions.

[NoReins]

Well, yeah, but would it not have been even more suspicious if Ennis had taken off for a week "fishing" without having had a postcard from Jack first (or without Alma knowing that he was sending Jack a card)? I reckon the postcard thing helped them to keep up the pretence, because the postcards never said anything other than where and when they would meet. Of course, they didn't know that Alma knew....

One question: when Ennis replies to the first postcard, does he send it to a house address or to a PO Box (or whatever the equivalent was back then)? If it was to a PO Box then maybe he had more freedom to say things to Jack than Jack did in the cards to him....like telling him about the divorce? Of course, in the short story, he calls Jack to tell him about the divorce

[Patriot1]

One question: when Ennis replies to the first postcard, does he send it to a house address or to a PO Box (or whatever the equivalent was back then)?

Ennis sends his post card to Jack's home. Jack Twist, R.F.D. 2, Childress, Texas. For those who do not know, R.F.D. stands for Rural Free Delivery.

[NoReins]

Thanks Patriot1 - I didn't know that

[Patriot1]

Thanks Patriot1 - I didn't know that

My pleasure love.

[FlwrChild]

Wonderful thread! And I love what everyone has said. Great insights. Nothing to add at this time. Just wanted to say thanks to all who shared thoughts on this subject.

[MississaugaRed]

Come back soon, FlwrChld, when you have more time ... always enjoy hearing your thoughts! 

Part of the reason it came to me to even bring this subject up is that I have been spending some time around children of a friend of ours, "kids" who are now 25 and 23 respectively.  And it dawned on me a few weeks ago at a dinner they attended just how much more formed they are now, than  they had seemed at 18 or 19 years of age.  I've know them from their early teens, and remember how they had been testing the waters over the years.  Now they both seem to have found their voice, have become somehow more solid in their personalities.  And less easily swayed from their opinions and convictions.

Which of course made me wonder if Jack and Ennis would have had a more likely chance of building a life together if they'd stayed together after Brokeback, so they could have grown and formed with each other instead of apart.  Had a crazy notion that the 19 year old Ennis may have been a little more open to the world, more likely to adapt to what he'd discovered about himself during the next few years if he and Jack were side by side the whole time.  It was not to be of course, but that's kind of where the thought came from, if anyone had wondered ...    Sometimes the mulling takes you to odd places ... 

[tpe]

Come back soon, FlwrChld, when you have more time ... always enjoy hearing your thoughts! 

Part of the reason it came to me to even bring this subject up is that I have been spending some time around children of a friend of ours, "kids" who are now 25 and 23 respectively.  And it dawned on me a few weeks ago at a dinner they attended just how much more formed they are now, than  they had seemed at 18 or 19 years of age.  I've know them from their early teens, and remember how they had been testing the waters over the years.  Now they both seem to have found their voice, have become somehow more solid in their personalities.  And less easily swayed from their opinions and convictions.

Which of course made me wonder if Jack and Ennis would have had a more likely chance of building a life together if they'd stayed together after Brokeback, so they could have grown and formed with each other instead of apart.  Had a crazy notion that the 19 year old Ennis may have been a little more open to the world, more likely to adapt to what he'd discovered about himself during the next few years if he and Jack were side by side the whole time.  It was not to be of course, but that's kind of where the thought came from, if anyone had wondered ...    Sometimes the mulling takes you to odd places ... 

Very nicely put, MississaugaRed.  I do think that at that age, 4 years mean a lot -- much more, I think, than in other age brackets.  I do think this is the time when a lot of "kids" find their own voice and solidify. 

At least this seems true, drawing from my own experience.

[FlwrChild]

I like where the mulling takes us MissRed! And if I may reference the SS for a moment, in the motel during the reunion Ennis says two things that may support your speculation.
First: "You know, I was sittin up here all that time trying to figure out if I was-?.."
Which tells you he at least contemplated the possibility of realizing his sexuality.
Then regarding his breakdown at the end of that first summer: "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Perhaps if he had realized earlier, something might have been different? No way to know but it kind of goes to your point about being more fluid/less set at the younger age, etc.

[NoReins]

Then regarding his breakdown at the end of that first summer: "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Perhaps if he had realized earlier, something might have been different? No way to know but it kind of goes to your point about being more fluid/less set at the younger age, etc.

You know, you might just be right....I remember thinking just that when I first read that line in the SS. Can't believe I'd forgotten about it either - seeing as how it's in my signature

[camellia]

I am new to this forum, well I've been reading your posts for months now just never got the nerve to actually write something. I am so glad to have found other BBM lovers like me! Anyway this has been bugging me since I first saw the movie. Why did Jack wait 4 years to contact Ennis? It seems to me that at the end of the summer he was ready to bundle Ennis into his truck and head on up to Lightning Flat. But then he lets him leave. Just doesn't make sense to me. I hope this hasn't been discusses elswhere already. Any thoughts?

[welshwitch]

Two interesting points spring to mind One, was Ennis really thinking about Jack during the early stages of his marriage - he implies he ttok a year after parting from Jack to work out why he's reacted as he had, and this wqs when he was getting maried, setting up home, getting a job, seeing the birth of his first daughter, etc. Jack must have made a considerable impact if Ennis thought about him with all these distractions.

Two, even that early on Ennis made a negative decision - it was too late before they ever started. This is so typically Ennis.
 

[MississaugaRed]

I like where the mulling takes us MissRed! And if I may reference the SS for a moment, in the motel during the reunion Ennis says two things that may support your speculation.
First: "You know, I was sittin up here all that time trying to figure out if I was-?.."
Which tells you he at least contemplated the possibility of realizing his sexuality.
Then regarding his breakdown at the end of that first summer: "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Perhaps if he had realized earlier, something might have been different? No way to know but it kind of goes to your point about being more fluid/less set at the younger age, etc.

Good points, FlwrChld.  And I hadn't thought of those words from the ss in relation to this before, thank you!

Always figured these lines were keep out of the film version for the very purpose of keeping us guessing more about what was in Ennis's head;  all the turmoil LM/DO/AL decided not to spell out for us when we're given the chance to read it instead from body language and eyes.

[MississaugaRed]

Two interesting points spring to mind One, was Ennis really thinking about Jack during the early stages of his marriage - he implies he ttok a year after parting from Jack to work out why he's reacted as he had, and this wqs when he was getting maried, setting up home, getting a job, seeing the birth of his first daughter, etc. Jack must have made a considerable impact if Ennis thought about him with all these distractions.

Two, even that early on Ennis made a negative decision - it was too late before they ever started. This is so typically Ennis.
 

Path of least resistance? A stubborn determinaton to keep to the path he's set for himself, right or wrong?  The man is a font on contradictions, no question.

Just to keep seeing Jack after the reunion, that likely took all the will and strength Ennis possessed, when it went so against the grain of the life he'd tried to build after Brokeback.  Speaks to the power of his love for Jack, that Ennis can't fully deny it in spite of his inclination to not upset the status quo.  He refuses to let Jack slip completely away from him again, when it would have been easier for him if he had.  So in a sense his stubbornness keeps them together as much as it keeps them apart. 

[FlwrChild]

Good point MissRed! It takes two and he kept coming back. It probably would've been easier not to...

[tpe]

Hello camellia .  I this somewhat related to the other thread that deals with any damage done to their relationship after 4 years.  You ask here why Jack had to wait for 4 years before contacting Ennis.

I think when they parted in 63, Ennis did not seem to have expressed interest in ever meeting again.  And he did say that what they had between them was just for that summer.

Jack did return to Signal the next summer, hoping that Ennis had changed his mind.  So you see that at least Jack tried to create a situation when he and Ennis could be together again.

Knowing about Ennis's intention to marry would have discouraged Jack.  Also, the fact that Ennis did not show up the next summer must have confirmed to him that Ennis did proceed with the marriage.

Finally, Jack moved to Texas.  Distance made it more difficult for them to try to get in touch.  And then there was Lureen, marriage, and the baby.  At that point, it was a minor miracle that they did ever get to see each other again...

[welshwitch]

Ennis is a bit like a body moving in a vacuum - once set on one path it keeps on till it meets another. Jack was the object that deflected Ennis from his path; you could say Ennis had very little choice but to be deflected.

[Rosie]

Part of the reason it came to me to even bring this subject up is that I have been spending some time around children of a friend of ours, "kids" who are now 25 and 23 respectively.  And it dawned on me a few weeks ago at a dinner they attended just how much more formed they are now, than  they had seemed at 18 or 19 years of age.  I've know them from their early teens, and remember how they had been testing the waters over the years.  Now they both seem to have found their voice, have become somehow more solid in their personalities.  And less easily swayed from their opinions and convictions.

Hi MissisaugaRed,  Thank you for bringing up this really interesting thread. Your quote above got me thinking 
And I agree with you that at 18 or 19 kids still seem kids and at 23 and 25 they have turned into fully formed adult men. But I think the event that really changes you forever - and pretty instantly IMO is that of becoming a parent. It doesn't matter how old you are, you see life differently, at least I did. I was married at 20, and was still very naive, malleable still. As was my husband (although he was 21). I had my first child at 24 and then everything changed. Apart from discovering an all consuming love the power of which I never thought possible, and which only increases with the passing years, I also had the sense that I was actually not an island. I was in a chain of life. I was going to age and die the same as my parents and grandparents. I would be replaced by the next generation. Something that I was now also responsible to help nurture. I don't know when this realisation would have happened had I not had children, it obviously does, maybe at different ages for different people (I can only speak for myself)but I think that having children probably brings this realisation instantly.

 I think that that may have been what made Jack contact Ennis at that point. He had become a parent. His view of the world changed. He realized that he only had one life and wanted to live it fully or at least not live it in regret that he didn't try.

For Ennis I think that the realization that he was responsible for these two baby girls that he loved with all his heart made him put himself and his own desires on a back footing to his responsibilities toward them. Along with his deep seated fear and denial of his true emotion towards Jack this made his choice for him. To him the problems were insurmountable. I'm not saying that Jack didn't feel responsible towards Bobby and I think that if Ennis had agreed to live with Jack, Bobby would have been in Jack's plans. It's just that Jack being more the optimistic probably felt that he could live his life and still be a responsible and loving parent to Bobby. Also you have to remember that Lureen came from a well off family, if Jack did not live in the same house as them, Lureen and Bobby would not starve or not have the money to pay the bills, the way that it would have been for Alma had Ennis left. So when Ennis said those words "too late then by a long, long while." it probably was for him. Because in that first year he had become a parent. He was no longer only responsible for himself.

You know, that's another reason that I think that Ennis would never have been the one to contact Jack. It was too late very quickly for Ennis. Almost immediately after coming down from the mountain. They came down at the  end of August. Ennis was married to Alma in December, and she was pregnant by mid January, with Alma Jr. arriving in September.

Interestingly enough he became a parent at exactly the time he says he realised that he should never have let Jack out of his sights, and about three years after that Jack becomes a parent and soon after must have had the same realisation because it is at that time that he contacts Ennis..... so... I now think that it was the act of becoming a parent that set them the most, but with opposite results.....even more than the passing of time...... Although without the passing of time they wouldn't have become parents...... Oh stop now Rosie pleeease!

The timing in this story just never works out for our boys does it. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

[MississaugaRed]

But I think the event that really changes you forever - and pretty instantly IMO is that of becoming a parent. 

...  I also had the sense that I was actually not an island. I was in a chain of life. ....


I think that that may have been what made Jack contact Ennis at that point. He had become a parent. His view of the world changed. He realized that he only had one life and wanted to live it fully or at least not live it in regret that he didn't try.

For Ennis I think that the realization that he was responsible for these two baby girls that he loved with all his heart made him put himself and his own desires on a back footing to his responsibilities toward them. Along with his deep seated fear and denial of his true emotion towards Jack this made his choice for him. To him the problems were insurmountable.


Interestingly enough he became a parent at exactly the time he says he realised that he should never have let Jack out of his sights, and about three years after that Jack becomes a parent and soon after must have had the same realisation because it is at that time that he contacts Ennis..... so... I now think that it was the act of becoming a parent that set them the most, but with opposite results.....even more than the passing of time...... Although without the passing of time they wouldn't have become parents...... Oh stop now Rosie pleeease!

The timing in this story just never works out for our boys does it. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

Thank you for that very thoughtful post, Rosie!     (flowers for Rosie!)

Undoubtedl, parenthood had a profound effect on the boys maturity, as you say.  

And how interesting that this same event might have spurred them into two different mind sets.  Even in this they diverge.  Jack as you point out being inspired to seek more for his own life (because he's wishing for Bobby all those things he himself never had?) and Ennis making the girl's his anchor into the life he was existing in.

Excellent evaluation, Rosie, really appreciate you sharing this!  Much to ponder. 

 

[FlwrChild]

More wonderful posts! And Rosie, you had some great insights. So true about the timing never working out for them too.
And you're both right about another thing. It seems that Ennis and Jack almost always went in opposite directions with the way they each responded to the same events. Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream... 

[MississaugaRed]

More wonderful posts! And Rosie, you had some great insights. So true about the timing never working out for them too.
And you're both right about another thing. It seems that Ennis and Jack almost always went in opposite directions with the way they each responded to the same events. Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream... 

FlwrChld, you make me  :\'( 

Poor both boys ...      I don't know what would be worse ... fearing ever to dream or daring to dream only to have the dream ground into dust ...