Author Topic: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage (Read 46799 times)

MississaugaRed · « **on:** Aug 01, 2006, 03:06 PM »

This may have been discussed in part in other threads, although I don’t see one on this specifically so I’m going to ask the question ...

What damage was done to their chances for a life together during those four years they spent apart??

We have the main, obvious ones – the marriages, the kids. But it seems to me that the worse damage, the damage that stops them from having the sweet life Jack dreams of, was the passage of time.

No question, Ennis was already scarred by seeing Earl’s body. That kind of experience goes a ways to shaping you. However, it’s not EVERYTHING. There is a time we all go through as young adults where our personalities, our strengths and weaknesses, our opinions and decisions, start to define us.

At the age of 19, up on Brokeback, we see an Ennis who is wounded, wary, guarded – but still able to open up to MORE. Still able to remake himself, slowly, under Jack’s affection.

During those four years after Brokeback and before the reunion, Ennis pulls back into himself again. He grew into an adult, solidified (for want of a better term at the moment) into another version of himself by the time Jack found him again. And I think by then, the damage was largely done and the Ennis-mountain that Jack had to climb was steeper than it had been four years before. Not because of wife or kids or making a living, but because ENNIS had torqued himself into someone less adaptable by then.

Pure speculation, a great big “what if’, but .... any comments on this view of things??

(tpe ... of course feel free to move this if it should be someplace else.

)

welshwitch · « **Reply #1 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 03:31 PM »

I think you're right, MissRed. Ennis was a conventiopnal sort of guy - he married, worked, had two children and his image of himself was obviously that of a husband and father, whereas on Brokeback though engaged he had still been - just - a free agent. Now he's assumed the mantle of responsibility and respectability - that shot of him getting married is very telling, a rite of passage into adulthood. Ennis had put his youth behind him by the time he was twenty and Jack was part of that youth.

Evidently he still remembered Jack and what they had had togethe but I think he pushed it far into the recesses of memory, as one does with half-guilty, half-pleasurable memories. Ironically though it's Jack who says he didn't think they'd get back inot "this", by which I take him to mean sex, again it's Ennis who didn't think of its recurring and when Jack appeared I think there was no-one more surprised than Ennis at the viloence of his reaction and the passion of that kiss.

Jack got through Ennis's defences, his shell, on Brokeback where they were alone and Ennis was more vulnerable. Now he's rebuilt the fences and Jack has to break though a whole lot more than he did the first time. The passion is there and the desire to be together, but on Ennis's side not the will - if it ever was.

lamusica · « **Reply #2 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 03:43 PM »

I have a hard time seeing things as you do, Miss Red - although, of course, you may be right. I just feel that the reaction of Ennis when he was waiting for Jack to arrive was not of someone who was not anticipating that moment to occur some fine day. I believe Ennis was the conventional husband and father and took his responsibilities seriously, but I think he spent a lot of time thinking about Jack ( as it indicates in the ss). When Alma asks him if he knows somebody by the name of Jack, he hesitates, but it is a surprised hesitation. He didn't have to rack his brain to remember a guy named Jack. He immediately knew who Jack was, and he immediately slipped into the secret mode. He had to be careful in his response to Alma, and finally said he was a fishing buddy.
I doubt if Ennis would have ever gone looking for Jack, but the second he read that postcard, he was ready, willing and able to see Jack again and get things back to where they were on BBM. I think both men thought about the other a lot during those four years, only Jack wanted it badly enough to look Ennis up, where Ennis was content to suffer -- just his nature.

NoReins · « **Reply #3 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 03:43 PM »

I disagree (with MissRed and Welshwitch) - I think Ennis wanted "this thing" to start up again just as much as Jack did. He wasn't thinking of sitting having a quiet beer with Jack when he wrote "you bet" on that postcard - he was thinking of everything they had shared up on Brokeback and all the things they had done together. It's maybe not as clear in the movie as it is in the short story where he tells Jack he "wrung it out a hunderd times thinkin' of you", but while outwardly he had tried to fit into the conventional role of husband and father, his heart and his thoughts were elsewhere.

Back to the original question - would things have been different if they had discussed the "sweet life" up on Brokeback? I don't think they would. I think that Ennis' fears were just as strong there as they were four years on ("you know I ain't queer") and if Jack had asked him then, his answer would have been the same - witness how he reacts when Jack asks if he's going to do this again next summer.

OT - I've just realised that the character I dislike the most in BBM is Ennis' father. If he hadn't dragged Ennis to see Earl's body at such a young age who knows what would have happened.

Rosie · « **Reply #4 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 04:13 PM »

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Aug 01, 2006, 03:06 PM

This may have been discussed in part in other threads, although I don’t see one on this specifically so I’m going to ask the question ...

What damage was done to their chances for a life together during those four years they spent apart??

We have the main, obvious ones – the marriages, the kids. But it seems to me that the worse damage, the damage that stops them from having the sweet life Jack dreams of, was the passage of time.

No question, Ennis was already scarred by seeing Earl’s body. That kind of experience goes a ways to shaping you. However, it’s not EVERYTHING. There is a time we all go through as young adults where our personalities, our strengths and weaknesses, our opinions and decisions, start to define us.

At the age of 19, up on Brokeback, we see an Ennis who is wounded, wary, guarded – but still able to open up to MORE. Still able to remake himself, slowly, under Jack’s affection.

During those four years after Brokeback and before the reunion, Ennis pulls back into himself again. He grew into an adult, solidified (for want of a better term at the moment) into another version of himself by the time Jack found him again. And I think by then, the damage was largely done and the Ennis-mountain that Jack had to climb was steeper than it had been four years before. Not because of wife or kids or making a living, but because ENNIS had torqued himself into someone less adaptable by then.

Pure speculation, a great big “what if’, but .... any comments on this view of things??

(tpe ... of course feel free to move this if it should be someplace else. )

What a brilliant new topic MississaugaRed

I said in another post if only Ennis had let Jack comfort him when his nose was bleeding on the mountain instead of hitting him.... Well, I don't know how much it would have changed, but imagine if immediately before their parting they had been very affectionate together. Maybe Ennis wouldn't have said 'guess I'll see you around'.

He might have said something more concrete, but I think I may be getting carried away now!

I think you are so right to say that Ennis was more open to Jack and what they had up on the mountain, more able to remake himself, and that he retreated into his shell in the four years after.
I agree with lamusica that both men thought about each other a lot in those four years, and that Jack was the one who wanted it badly enough to look Ennis up, while Ennis was prepared to suffer on.
I agree with welshwitch that up on the mountain Jack got through Ennis' defences and he had a whole lot more to break through four years later.
I also have the nerve to agree with NoReins that maybe things wouldn't have been that different!
Hell, I'm so pleased to speculate on this I'm agreeing with everybody!

tpe · « **Reply #5 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 06:48 PM »

Did you think that Ennis half-intentionally "torqued" himself this way -- as a guard against his love for Jack?

I think, up until Ennis saw Jack's postcard, or perhaps even up until Ennis saw Jack's truck park in front of the laundrymat, Ennis thought that he had put enough distance between him and his love for Jack.

He was wrong.

Like an arrow on a stretched bow, the trajectory has been set.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #6 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 10:55 PM »

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Aug 01, 2006, 03:06 PM

This may have been discussed in part in other threads, although I don’t see one on this specifically so I’m going to ask the question ...

What damage was done to their chances for a life together during those four years they spent apart??

We have the main, obvious ones – the marriages, the kids. But it seems to me that the worse damage, the damage that stops them from having the sweet life Jack dreams of, was the passage of time.

No question, Ennis was already scarred by seeing Earl’s body. That kind of experience goes a ways to shaping you. However, it’s not EVERYTHING. There is a time we all go through as young adults where our personalities, our strengths and weaknesses, our opinions and decisions, start to define us.

At the age of 19, up on Brokeback, we see an Ennis who is wounded, wary, guarded – but still able to open up to MORE. Still able to remake himself, slowly, under Jack’s affection.

During those four years after Brokeback and before the reunion, Ennis pulls back into himself again. He grew into an adult, solidified (for want of a better term at the moment) into another version of himself by the time Jack found him again. And I think by then, the damage was largely done and the Ennis-mountain that Jack had to climb was steeper than it had been four years before. Not because of wife or kids or making a living, but because ENNIS had torqued himself into someone less adaptable by then.

Pure speculation, a great big “what if’, but .... any comments on this view of things??

(tpe ... of course feel free to move this if it should be someplace else. )

I don't think so MississaugaRed. and here is why. For four years Ennis thought about Jack. For four years he missed his best friend. For four years, except for twice that we know of, Ennis treated Alma as if she was Jack buy flipping her over. He even turns the light out to help him visualize Jack instead of Alma. When Alma mentions being lonely like he was as a child, he remembers how Jack took that loneliness away.

No, I think Ennis remained Jack oriented for those four years. The sad thing is he didn't contact Jack first. He knew where he could write to Jack better than Jack knew where to write to Ennis.

Rosie · « **Reply #7 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 11:36 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Aug 01, 2006, 10:55 PM

No, I think Ennis remained Jack oriented for those four years. The sad thing is he didn't contact Jack first. He knew where he could write to Jack better than Jack knew where to write to Ennis.

The Twist Ranch, Lightning Flats! Never thought of that before! I've always thought Ennis couldn't know where Jack was. Now there's somethig new to think about. (Always something with this movie!)

Thanks Patriot1

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #8 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 08:42 AM »

Wow ... thanks for all the great discussion on this, everyone!

We brokies do love our boys and it's good to see them in such gentle care here, I have to say, so hugs to you all ...

I guess my thoughts on this was not that Ennis used those for years to distance himself from Jack, or wasn't thinking on him during that time, since we can see from how he lived that he was still haunted by his memories and love. There is no question to me about their love or that they could ever be without one another.

My gut feeling was just that those four years apart give Ennis time to hunker down into his self-image as a "straight" man, become even more withdrawn from the world, and because of that Jack was faced with a much harder task in getting Ennis to take a chance of living with Jack the way both of them really wanted.

I think that maybe, as life and years form you, it often takes something drastic to make us move in a different direction. In Ennis's life some of those instances would be his falling in love with Jack up on Brokeback, the shock of his intense reaction to seeing Jack again when they reunited, his divorce and later ... Jack's death. All those times when Ennis might have been moved to make a change. What we see in the end is that it takes something as extreme as the death of the person he loved most to make he re-evaluate and maybe start trying to re-invent himself.

So I'm speculating that maybe there best chance at having a life together would have been right at the end of Brokeback summer; ever year after seems to add bricks to the wall that was Ennis Del Mar ... So if either of them had been able to connect again with each other earlier, maybe Ennis would have been more open to adjusting he's way of thinking of himself ...

Just a timing thing, no reflection on how much they loved each other, just reflecting on what losses come with missed opportunity, losses you can't always see for what they are ... $:-\\$ Thanks again everyone for giving deep thought to my silly musings ...

tpe · « **Reply #9 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 09:12 AM »

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Aug 02, 2006, 08:42 AM

So I'm speculating that maybe there best chance at having a life together would have been right at the end of Brokeback summer; ever year after seems to add bricks to the wall that was Ennis Del Mar ... So if either of them had been able to connect again with each other earlier, maybe Ennis would have been more open to adjusting he's way of thinking of himself ...

Just a timing thing, no reflection on how much they loved each other, just reflecting on what losses come with missed opportunity, losses you can't always see for what they are ... $:-\\$ Thanks again everyone for giving deep thought to my silly musings ...

Yes, I somehow feel the same way about this. This is what makes the farewell scene at the end of Summer 63 so moving. It could not be reversed.

Rosie · « **Reply #10 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 01:24 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 02, 2006, 09:12 AM

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Aug 02, 2006, 08:42 AM
So I'm speculating that maybe there best chance at having a life together would have been right at the end of Brokeback summer; ever year after seems to add bricks to the wall that was Ennis Del Mar ... So if either of them had been able to connect again with each other earlier, maybe Ennis would have been more open to adjusting he's way of thinking of himself ...

Just a timing thing, no reflection on how much they loved each other, just reflecting on what losses come with missed opportunity, losses you can't always see for what they are ... $:-\\$ Thanks again everyone for giving deep thought to my silly musings ...

Yes, I somehow feel the same way about this. This is what makes the farewell scene at the end of Summer 63 so moving. It could not be reversed.

TPE, It's those doors closing again... :\'( Is there anything sadder than regret of missed oppotunities?
MississAugaRed I haven't found you musings sillly,
they've been profound thoughts provoking profound emotion. In me at least!
Rosie x

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #11 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 01:37 PM »

Thank you, tpe and Rosie ..

Yes, it's the missed opportunities and the obstacles that get added in the wake of those that make these four years apart so very sad for me ...

We've all been profoundly moved by the story of Jack and Ennis, it's become impossible not to explore every aspect of their lives that we can, just to keep them close to us a little longer. That's how come for me to end up here

... with people like all of you willing to discuss and consider, even when we see things differently; maybe especially then, since it opens our eyes to other visions.

tpe · « **Reply #12 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 01:47 PM »

Would things have been different had it been a year or two instead of four. For Ennis, highly unlikely, I think. For Jack, he was still free... But it would take 2 of them to have made a difference. Would it have been possible for Jack to propose living together with Ennis in the Summer of 63? Would it have been possible for Ennis to consider the request? AS was said by someone before, perhaps things would have been different had Jack insisted that Ennis take a ride with him in that Summer of 63...

Rosie · « **Reply #13 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 02:41 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 02, 2006, 01:47 PM

Would things have been different had it been a year or two instead of four. For Ennis, highly unlikely, I think. For Jack, he was still free... But it would take 2 of them to have made a difference. Would it have been possible for Jack to propose living together with Ennis in the Summer of 63? Would it have been possible for Ennis to consider the request? AS was said by someone before, perhaps things would have been different had Jack insisted that Ennis take a ride with him in that Summer of 63...

If only......

Sorry if this is a bit

But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.

I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!

welshwitch · « **Reply #14 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 02:42 PM »

Underlying Ennis's character is a sort of stubbornness. Befre he went up on Brokeback he was supposed to marry Alma in the winter, and that's what he did. If Jack had in some way come betweeen him and Alma before they married, things could perhaps have worked out differnetly. but that involves more persistance tha Jack might have been able to risk, and assumes a capacity for change that nnis probably didn't have. Ennis is like an oil tanker - it takes for ever to slow down and turn around. It took twenty years and Jack's death and the finding of the shirts to begin to start the process.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #15 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 03:48 PM »

Quote from: Rosie on Aug 02, 2006, 02:41 PM

If only......

Sorry if this is a bit But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!

Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #16 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 04:53 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Aug 02, 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote from: Rosie on Aug 02, 2006, 02:41 PM

If only......

Sorry if this is a bit But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!

Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.

I

I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."

Patriot1 · « **Reply #17 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 04:58 PM »

Quote from: jesseanne21 on Aug 02, 2006, 04:53 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Aug 02, 2006, 03:48 PM
Quote from: Rosie on Aug 02, 2006, 02:41 PM

If only......

Sorry if this is a bit But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!

Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.

I I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."

Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch. And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #18 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 05:05 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Aug 02, 2006, 04:58 PM

Quote from: jesseanne21 on Aug 02, 2006, 04:53 PM
Quote from: Patriot1 on Aug 02, 2006, 03:48 PM
Quote from: Rosie on Aug 02, 2006, 02:41 PM

If only......

Sorry if this is a bit But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!

Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.

I I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."

Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch. And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.

Patriot1, I understand your reasoning and I agree with you...Jack deserved an apology. But, you are not thinking like Ennis...that's what Ennis said (I figured you were sore about that punch) and Ennis' reasoning.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #19 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 05:18 PM »

Quote from: jesseanne21 on Aug 02, 2006, 05:05 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Aug 02, 2006, 04:58 PM
Quote from: jesseanne21 on Aug 02, 2006, 04:53 PM
Quote from: Patriot1 on Aug 02, 2006, 03:48 PM
Quote from: Rosie on Aug 02, 2006, 02:41 PM

If only......

Sorry if this is a bit But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!

Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.

I I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."

Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch. And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.

Patriot1, I understand your reasoning and I agree with you...Jack deserved an apology. But, you are not thinking like Ennis...that's what Ennis said (I figured you were sore about that punch) and Ennis' reasoning.

But I am thinking like Ennis. Ennis figures he hasn't heard from Jack after one month, or six months, or a year and says to himself, 'damn, it must have been that punch I gave him. I better write to apologize and maybe I can even get to see him again.' But Ennis never writes even though he knew how to reach Jack.

Nah, Annie either didn't see it or chose to ignore it.

welshwitch · « **Reply #20 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 05:53 AM »

Ennis wasn't going to write and apologize or write and anything. He wasn't going to make the first move because he was Ennis. I doubt if he'd have risked writng to Lightning Flat anyeway; the last thing Jack had said was that he was going up to his fathr's ranch for the winter and that he might be back if the army didn't get him. He could have been in the army, up on Brokeback ( Ennis never went back to see), off rodeoing, which Ennis knew he'd been doing because Jack told him about it.

My feeling is that of Jack hadn't made the first move, Ennis wouldn't have, and there's have been no reunion, no return to the mountains, nothing.

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #21 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 06:27 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 03, 2006, 05:53 AM

Ennis wasn't going to write and apologize or write and anything. He wasn't going to make the first move because he was Ennis. I doubt if he'd have risked writng to Lightning Flat anyeway; the last thing Jack had said was that he was going up to his fathr's ranch for the winter and that he might be back if the army didn't get him. He could have been in the army, up on Brokeback ( Ennis never went back to see), off rodeoing, which Ennis knew he'd been doing because Jack told him about it.

My feeling is that of Jack hadn't made the first move, Ennis wouldn't have, and there's have been no reunion, no return to the mountains, nothing.

I have to concur with WW. No Jack first contact, no reunion, no 20 year affair.

Ennis, even feeling bad about that punch, had at least THOUGHT that he had put the summer on Brokeback, with everything that meant, behind him. He seemed to be focusing on getting by, raising his girls. No room in his world view to be reaching out for something he'd been told his whole life he shouldn't want. Couldn't hide those feels always, Alma becoming a substitute for what he wanted from Jack, but mostly he likely went on trying not to think on it. The minute Jack opens the door though, by getting in touch with Ennis first, Ennis was all over it in a second ... maybe he was able to fight his own feelings and deny himself, but no way could he deny both himself AND Jack, once he realized that Jack hadn't forgotten him either ... $:-\\$

tpe · « **Reply #22 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 07:20 AM »

Ennis is so conflicted that it is very difficult to gauge his exact thoughts about Jack and BBM during those 4 years, except those things that he revealed at the motel 9n the short story. I do think it is humna nature to be less affected by something when time and distance intervene. Why he reacted the way he did when he first saw Jack through the window of his home was probably a spontaneous renewal of old feelings lying dormant -- awakened by Jack's renewed proximity and his determination to see Ennis once more.

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #23 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 07:26 AM »

Very good points, tpe ...

There are too old adages that contradict each other ..

"Out of sight, out of mind" and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". Could have been a little of both causing Ennis to react as he did after four years of not seeing Jack. He could deal with the separation and push his feelings down deep as long as Jack was not in proximity. As soon as Jack is within reach, all those emotions come rushing back to the surface, maybe richer and more complex because of the lenght of time they'd been held buried in his heart.

tpe · « **Reply #24 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 07:41 AM »

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Aug 03, 2006, 07:26 AM

Very good points, tpe ...

There are too old adages that contradiict each other ..

"Out of sight, out of mind" and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". Could have been a little of both causing Ennis to react as he did after four years of not seeing Jack. He could deal with the separation and push his feelings down deep as long as Jack was not in proximity. As soon asJ ack is within reach, all those emotions come rushing back to the surface, maybe richer and more complex because of the lenght of time they'd been held buried in his heart.

Very nicely put, MississaugaRed. These old adages definitely encapsulate the idea quite beautifully. I really think it was understandable that Ennis reacted the way he did. The reappearance of an old lover certainly brings back emotions to many of us, even though we have convinced ourselves long ago that we have gotten over him/her.

Rosie · « **Reply #25 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 08:13 AM »

Thanks for all your thoughts.

(I've only just read them, so I haven't thought about this long)

I agree with you that if Jack had not contacted Ennis they would never have met up again. Ennis would have just carried on making a livin with Alma and the girls. Once Jack had made the move, Ennis reacted to it. I suppose he thought that it was Jacks fault that it was four years because they both realised that Ennis never would have made contact so if Jack had wanted it sooner he should have written sooner. I'm not expressing myself well - I don't know why - it's not that I thought that Ennis would have contacted Jack, it's that he thought to himself that it was Jacks fault that it had been four years. (It's not that he's saying it to Jack it's that he's thinking it to himself.) It could have been a hundred before Ennis contacted Jack. I think I've just answered my own question. Ennis thought it was Jacks fault because Jack was always going to be the one who either made contact or didn't and the length of time was dependent on him! OMG I'm going to stop now!

Somethimes this movie has me going round in circles

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #26 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 08:49 AM »

Quote from: Rosie on Aug 03, 2006, 08:13 AM

Somethimes this movie has me going round in circles

Not to worry, Rosie ... we all get that feeling at times, it's why we keep coming back .. and back and back ...

That thing about "fault" that you mention was from the SS, which I usually treat differently from the film. SS Ennis had some thoughts on the blame for their four year separation maybe lying at Jack's door, but in the film we are't given firm indication .. could be he had those feelings, could be not ... definitely open to interpretation. Interesting, though, what you said about how it was always up to Jack to make contact ... maybe Ennis was waiting for Jack to take the lead here? "not goin' to try to find you, Jack, 'cause I don't know that you want to be found" And he does let Jack take the lead in anything to do with their relationship it seems untill after the reunion. From then on, it was Ennis rules they played by, wasn't it? Now that he was secure about how Jack felt for him, Ennis had confidence to start calling the shots ... interesting idea, Rosie ..

For what is's worth

I think SS Ennis might have had some fault for not contacting Jack, since he admits in the SS that he knew after about a year that he should never have let Jack out of his sight ... film Ennis never makes that admission, so I feel it makes sense that he wasn't the one to initiate contact ... $:-\\$ $:-\\$

Great ... now I'm going round in circles ...

happens to us all, Rosie ...

scribe · « **Reply #27 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 09:43 AM »

Fascinating discussion as ever. But Ennis doesn't really strike you as a guy who is going to take the initiative in any circumstance. Usually Jack or Alma leads and Ennis follows (with possible exception of SNIT, and Ennis is obviously uncomfortable about taking the lead then). The obvious change is the last postcard - but by then it is too late.....

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #28 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 09:55 AM »

Quote from: scribe on Aug 03, 2006, 09:43 AM

Fascinating discussion as ever. But Ennis doesn't really strike you as a guy who is going to take the initiative in any circumstance. Usually Jack or Alma leads and Ennis follows (with possible exception of SNIT, and Ennis is obviously uncomfortable about taking the lead then). The obvious change is the last postcard - but by then it is too late.....

True, scribe, Ennis doesn't often stir himself to take the initative.

But he's pretty darn good at holding a firm line, though. When he sets the limits for how his affair with Jack will be conducted (living together ... no way! get together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere) Jack has no choice but to try to live best he can within those Ennis rules. Could be that one or the other of them made the decision about when the meetings were going to take place each year. We only see a few cards so can't really tell the pattern after the first time. Since Ennis maybe had a harder time getting time off work, could well have been that he would send the initial "let's get together on this date" kind of card at times over the years ...

welshwitch · « **Reply #29 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 11:34 AM »

Part of the problem is that a pattern of absence has already been set by the reunion - then Jack persuades Ennis to go off into the mountains with him for a few days and that becomes the paradigm - contact, brief escape, back to normal life. Ennis doesn't want to break that pattern and Jack doesn;t dare to, in case he loses Ennis entirely. So they stick to it for years and get no further, just repeat the same thing over and over.

The four years have a lot to answer for, not least the build-up of feeling that leads to the explosive reunion kiss and the rush to the motel. The intensity of that is something they recreate, presumably, on subsequent occasions - this is referred to in the ss - and that's part of what keeps them together. There is a sense in which that four-year gap sabotages any chance the relationship might have had of developing and changing.