Author Topic: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage  (Read 46798 times)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #60 on: Aug 09, 2006, 01:59 PM »
More wonderful posts! And Rosie, you had some great insights. So true about the timing never working out for them too. :(
And you're both right about another thing. It seems that Ennis and Jack almost always went in opposite directions with the way they each responded to the same events. Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream... 

FlwrChld, you make me  :\'( 

Poor both boys ...  :(    I don't know what would be worse ... fearing ever to dream or daring to dream only to have the dream ground into dust ...  :(

This is why we grieve for both of them. :(

MissRed, you hit 1,100! :)
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #61 on: Aug 09, 2006, 02:16 PM »
Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream... 

FlwrChld, you make me  :\'( 

Poor both boys ...  :(    I don't know what would be worse ... fearing ever to dream or daring to dream only to have the dream ground into dust ...  :(

This is why we grieve for both of them. :(

So true, FlwrChld!  :^^)



MissRed, you hit 1,100! :)

How did that happen??  ???  OMG ... I'm turning into you!   ;D  ;D
Not that that would be a bad thing ...   ^f^
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #62 on: Aug 09, 2006, 02:32 PM »

How did that happen??  ???  OMG ... I'm turning into you!   ;D  ;D
Not that that would be a bad thing ...   ^f^

 ;D ;D ;D

Sorry for being OT. :-X
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #63 on: Aug 09, 2006, 02:37 PM »

How did that happen??  ???  OMG ... I'm turning into you!   ;D  ;D
Not that that would be a bad thing ...   ^f^

 ;D ;D ;D

Sorry for being OT. :-X

It's okay, sweetie, I forgive you.  :)

How about we make it into T.   See, if the boys had been better LaShawners, maybe they could have worked out their problems early on.  But instead, they both internalized, and ended up hurting themselves and each other.
See ... not OT anymore.    :)  Communication is the key ...  ;)
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline Rosie

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Re: Four years?
« Reply #64 on: Aug 09, 2006, 02:38 PM »
I am new to this forum, well I've been reading your posts for months now just never got the nerve to actually write something. I am so glad to have found other BBM lovers like me! Anyway this has been bugging me since I first saw the movie. Why did Jack wait 4 years to contact Ennis? It seems to me that at the end of the summer he was ready to bundle Ennis into his truck and head on up to Lightning Flat. But then he lets him leave. Just doesn't make sense to me. I hope this hasn't been discusses elswhere already. Any thoughts?

  :h) Camellia

I've just said on another thread...four years damn/four year damage that I think Jack waited four years because that's when he became a parent and he saw his life differently then and decided to try and live his life the way he wanted. I'm not going to repeat myself here... and I don't think I'm necessarily right...I just didn't want you to think that I was ignoring your first post!  - especially after you took the courage to post in the first place. .    ^f^  Keep posting!  O0
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #65 on: Aug 09, 2006, 02:39 PM »
MissRed, you're the master!! O0
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #66 on: Aug 10, 2006, 11:07 AM »
It's interesting that we see Jack as the dynamic one in the relationship, but he does nothing to try to prevent Ennis from leaving without even trying to suggst any way of maintaining contact; in the same way he drives away immediately after the divorce scene, without making any attempt to persuade Ennis, suggest he might stick around for a couple of days , or go up to Lightning Flat now and come back when the girls are gone - he doesn't exactly fight hard to keep Ennis at times.

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #67 on: Aug 10, 2006, 11:34 AM »
That's a point, welshwitch ... I have to say, I've thought on it some, why Jack didn't push more, because you really wish one little thing could have changed that would have made the story play out differently.  :( 

I'm not sure (at the end of Brokeback summer anyway) if they'd reached a place where either man would have been comfortable acknowledging that what was between them was more then a passing physical connection born of loneliness and convenience.  To admit more right then would have opened a whole dynamic not easy in Wyoming 1963, I would think.  Maybe if there leaving hadn't been so abrupt, one or the other could have eased into the whole "what are we doing about the future" conversations.

Could also be Jack had a good understanding of Ennis's make up; that pushing him was a sure way to have Ennis back off completely or lash out.  Ennis did so on Brokeback (that punch); shot down Jack's dream pretty firmly when ranching up together was tentatively suggested; certainly when Jack suggests off-the-cuff that Ennis try someplace new like Texas he gets sneered at; and we see how Ennis breaks down at the end when Jack's done with pretending that things are fine the way they were.  So, confronting Ennis Del Mar too strongly seems to be a sure way to get rough words or a fist thrown your way ....   :s)

Why didn't he stick around or push at that cursed divorce scene?  Maybe because the girl's were right there so having it out right away wouldn't sit well with Ennis?  But really, at that moment, I think ('cause I'm a Jack fan, yeah, I know!) that maybe the hurt and humiliation was just too deep for him to do anything other than get the heck out of there as fast as he could, before he broke down or said something to end the relationship permenant.

I know, I'm making excuses ....   ::) but you're really set out the worms for me on this one, ww. :-

You know, Jack had set himself up with a comfortable life during those four years apart.  He still risked a lot by taking off to be with Ennis a couple of times a year, and driving hundreds of miles for the privilege of having whatever piece of Ennis's life the man would share.  Maybe that was all the fight Jack had in him???

oh, ahdunno!!   ^*()   circles, always circles ...
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline Rosie

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #68 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:18 PM »
Could also be Jack had a good understanding of Ennis's make up; that pushing him was a sure way to have Ennis back off completely or lash out.  Ennis did so on Brokeback (that punch); shot down Jack's dream pretty firmly when ranching up together was tentatively suggested; certainly when Jack suggests off-the-cuff that Ennis try someplace new like Texas he gets sneered at; and we see how Ennis breaks down at the end when Jack's done with pretending that things are fine the way they were.  So, confronting Ennis Del Mar too strongly seems to be a sure way to get rough words or a fist thrown your way ....   :s)

Why didn't he stick around or push at that cursed divorce scene?  Maybe because the girl's were right there so having it out right away wouldn't sit well with Ennis?  But really, at that moment, I think ('cause I'm a Jack fan, yeah, I know!) that maybe the hurt and humiliation was just too deep for him to do anything other than get the heck out of there as fast as he could, before he broke down or said something to end the relationship permenant.
I know, I'm making excuses ....   ::) but you're really set out the worms for me on this one, ww. :-

You know, Jack had set himself up with a comfortable life during those four years apart.  He still risked a lot by taking off to be with Ennis a couple of times a year, and driving hundreds of miles for the privilege of having whatever piece of Ennis's life the man would share.  Maybe that was all the fight Jack had in him???

oh, ahdunno!!   ^*()   circles, always circles ...

Oh, I think you're right Missis..the slightly raised eyes when Jack says "gonna do this again next summer" is Jack willing Ennis to say "Yes". That is as much as he dare do I guess. Telling Ennis he wants him to without saying it. If Ennis had said "I don't know what I'm gonna do yet" Jack would have maybe seen an opening, but Ennis doesn't, he says he's going to marry Alma. Whats the point of Jack trying to say something then ? He's just been punched remember, he knows Ennis is on the edge of his nerves and it's not the time to push too hard. I've said before I think that Jack hoped that if Ennis was given a year (till the next summer) he may have had time to think about things. If they parted on a row, things could be said that would stop that happening, and right now, trying to talk to Ennis is only going to end bad.  I know that's assuming that Jack already knew he loved Ennis, but I've always thought that he did know. Even after FNIT Ennis had to be left on his own to think about things before SNIT. If Jack had said anything more in the morning than "see you for supper" it would have been disastrous. Well I think Jack thinks the same here.  I think Jack would love to fight harder and he would if it was someone else...but Jack knows his man.

On the mountain after the reunion, it's the same thing. I think that he just KNOWS that Ennis is not a man to be pushed. He's just glad to know that he is going to be seeing Ennis again and privately thinks that over time, maybe Ennis will change his mind. He's not going to risk a row or being all or nothing now, because he probably knows it's the nothing he would get. Jack's not a coward, he just knows his man.

After the divorce scene, I think Jack is hurt SOOO BAAAD that he is going to burst into tears if he stays a minute longer. The girls are there, the way Ennis looks at the truck on the road, everything is pointing to the fact that he was going to get nowhere at that time. All the times before Jack has been able to convince himself that maybe Ennis' circumstances will change and they'll be together if he waits long enough. This time even he can see that it's not events but Ennis himself who is stopping his dream from happening. He is stunned at the realization.  He is also humiliated. And I think he's allowed to be a bit angry don't you?  He Just had to get away. He's not going to cry in front of Ennis, and he knows the tears are there. He's not going to beg. He jumps back in the truck and  has put miles between them before he calms down himself.  He needs time to think about this. He doesn't want to talk to Ennis until he's thought it through himself, because he knows that as always one wrong word from him and who knows what would happen.

By the time he see's Ennis again he's decided that, risking taking off a couple of times a year and driving hundreds of miles for the privilege of sharing whatever part of Ennis that Ennis was prepared to give was going to have to be enough. But I think the optimist in him always hoped that one day Ennis would come round. It wasn't that Jack couldn't fight, he just knew that he'd lose if he did.  He was always, waiting, waiting, waiting. He didn't have to tell Ennis any of this. Ennis wasn't stupid, he already knew.  He wouldn't mention it, but he knew alright. That's why at the end when Jack finally explodes and does tell Ennis some truths Ennis is the one to be stunned. As always only IMO. :)


Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #69 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:24 PM »
Can't say nothin'. You guys said it all. :\'( :\'(
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #70 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:34 PM »
True, but in that case why wait four years? Why not give up altogether - because he can't? Or try earlier -is he too busy rodeoing and trying to pick up men in bars and getting married and so on?

Why then? Nothing has happened between them since that unsatidfactory parting and Jack has heard nothing from or presumably of Ennis in the meantime. Why does Jack assume it would be worth trying again now? The wording of the postcard is very bland, but it would have to be if other people could see it - it is clearly meant to suggest two old buddies getting together for a casual drink, which would be unlikely to scare Ennis off even if he were no longer willing to get involved with Jack.

In four years all sorts of things could have happened to Ennis, though Jack must assume they haven't since he finds ( somehow) that he's still where he was and makes a move. But why then?

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #71 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:34 PM »
It's the LaShawners in us, FlwrChld ... you start with one thing, it leads to the next ...  :P

I think maybe Jack did set the tone on how he was going to deal with being in a relationship with Ennis, right from the start.  He offers, then reads just how much Ennis is ready to take, or give back in return.

Jack leaves Brokeback, gives Ennis a chance to agree to a way to get together again, doesn't get an enthusiastic response, backs off ... for four years.  Can't help himself, loneliness too much, sends his postcard, a cry in the dark, this time gets a "you bet", so comes running;  At the reunion ... once he gets the VERY enthusiastic response from Ennis he hadn't been expecting, leaps back in, and pushes until Ennis pushes back with "told you it ain't going to be that why".  He stays the course, waiting for something to tell him things might have changed ... like the divorce ..  :(   you know how well that went ...

Ennis sets the boundaries.  Jack lives within them, testing the limits on occasion, to see if they may have moved.

as always, just IMO.   ;)
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #72 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:37 PM »
All that makes perfect sense; I just don't see why four years. They're quite young and four years is a long time to leave any relationship in abeyance and expect it to survive unchanged.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #73 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:40 PM »
I agree MissRed. And remember, he didn't wait four years. He went back to Brokeback the next summer just as he said he would. When Ennis wasn't there and Aguirre kicked him out, he took himself off to Texas and tried to get on with his life. But marriage and a kid, instead of filling the void, just made him miss what he really wanted that much more. So he took a deep breath and climbed out on that limb again.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline NoReins

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #74 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:46 PM »
Yep, I think that's it FlwrChild. He had told Ennis where he would be the following summer. When Ennis didn't show up, Jack thought maybe he should let things be....and he tries first to get involved with another man (Jimbo) then to be a good husband and father. But when Lureen's father shuts him out just after his own son's birth, the loneliness that he feels deep down gets too much and he decides to try to contact Ennis. No-one else could scratch the itch that Jack had - only Ennis.
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #75 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:51 PM »
I agree MissRed. And remember, he didn't wait four years. He went back to Brokeback the next summer just as he said he would. When Ennis wasn't there and Aguirre kicked him out, he took himself off to Texas and tried to get on with his life. But marriage and a kid, instead of filling the void, just made him miss what he really wanted that much more. So he took a deep breath and climbed out on that limb again.

I'd forgotten that!  Thank you, FlwrChld.  He did make a effort before the four years ... that just makes my heart melt, now that you've pointed that out!   <^(

All that makes perfect sense; I just don't see why four years. They're quite young and four years is a long time to leave any relationship in abeyance and expect it to survive unchanged.

Yep, four years is a very long time, you're right, welchwitch.   Don't know why it took that long for them to actually get together again.  They were both trying to move on with lives during that time, Ennis right way, Jack once he saw Ennis hadn't come back to Brokeback.  Maybe it was just one of those things.  Jack got to the point where he was unhappy with where his life had taken him, started thinking on the one time and the one person he was happy with, and acted on the impulse to seek out his friend, see what might or might not be there.  Just happened to take four years for him to get to that point, where he'd take the risk again.  :(

As much as I believe they were both in love with each other when they  came down off that mountain, I don't imagine that they thought of each other every minute during those four years.  Life provides distractions.  It would be in the quiet - at night with a wife you love but aren't in love with, or in the house with a wife and child and in-laws where you're the outsider ... those would be times (I think) when they would each yearn on the other the most ...   :-\\

Like NoReins says, no one but Ennis would ever really do it for Jack.
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline Rosie

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #76 on: Aug 10, 2006, 02:03 PM »
All that makes perfect sense; I just don't see why four years. They're quite young and four years is a long time to leave any relationship in abeyance and expect it to survive unchanged.

The fact that it was four years came down to Jack because Ennis would never have contacted him. Jack had gone back to the mountain the following year and Ennis wasn't there. He must have assumed that Ennis was true to his word and had married Alma. There was no point in him hanging around then. So he went to Texas and tried to forget Ennis. He'd met Lureen, had Bobby and started to realize with the birth of his child that time was passing. He wasn't a kid anymore. What did he want from life? During the three years between when he last went to the mountain, now, he had maybe thought that he could find something to match the feeling he had with Ennis. The change in him maturing with the marriage and birth of his child made him realize time was passing and  he hadn't found anything to match the love he felt for Ennis. He contacted Ennis out of desperation. I don't think he expected the relationship to survive unchanged. He was older, he was thinking about his future and he wanted a life that was truer to what he really wanted and that obviously wasn't with Lureen or he wouldn't have been thinking about Ennis. I think he contacted Ennis first exactly because four years had passed and he didn't want to waste anymore time. It took him realizing how short life was to become desperate enough to do it. When you're young you always think that you have all the time in the world, he was old enough and mature enough now to know that he didn't. He certainly did want the relationship to change, he wanted it to be a mature one, an honest one, one where he committed himself to Ennis and Ennis committed himself to him. He just had to hope that Ennis loved him and would want it too. He couldn't know that without contacting him to find out. In between the renunion kiss and driving to the motel, he must have thought all his dreams may come true afterall...Poor Jack.. :\'(
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline NoReins

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #77 on: Aug 10, 2006, 02:42 PM »
In between the reunion kiss and driving to the motel, he must have thought all his dreams may come true afterall...Poor Jack.. :\'(

Maybe even the whole time they were at the motel too, at least until Ennis said he was stuck with what he had.

 :\'( :\'(
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #78 on: Aug 10, 2006, 05:49 PM »
Thank you, tpe and Rosie ..   ^f^   Yes, it's the missed opportunities and the obstacles that get added in the wake of those that make these four years apart so very sad for me ...

We've all been profoundly moved by the story of Jack and Ennis, it's become impossible not to explore every aspect of their lives that we can, just to keep them close to us a little longer.  That's how come for me to end up here   ;)   ... with people like all of you willing to discuss and consider, even when we see things differently; maybe especially then, since it opens our eyes to other visions.   :)

So true, MissRed. I love all this discussion.  It makes Ennis and Jack even more and more rich characters, because of the range of feelings and interpretations that we have about them.  I love "keeping them close to us a little longer" too.  I'm certainly not finished with them!  The more these discussions go on, the more I am realizing my Ennis-ness.  That was not outright obvious to me when I first saw the film, or even when I saw it again and again.  Any of us who are more Ennis and Jack could well stand to keep looking...

As to the four years...I see, as many have already said, that those years put Ennis even tighter in his shell.  But it was having children that tied him even tighter to the life he felt stuck with.  If he hadn't gotten married and had children -- but that's a big "if" -- he could well have allowed the shell to soften some and realized the sweet life was worth a try, even in 1963, even given his horrible childhood experience.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #79 on: Aug 10, 2006, 06:22 PM »
Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch.  And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.


I don't think the punch was a serious problem, either.  They spent pretty much time together between the punch and finally parting by the truck.  I always thought Ennis bring up the punch in the motel room was kind of a joke.  He didn't really figure Jack was sore from that punch (and that punch sure didn't stop Jack from still wanting Ennis).  I think Ennis brought up the punch as kind of a little inside-joke, an intimacy almost, a meaningful moment from their past.  Even the way he says it, is so...almost sexy, with that afterglow smile...

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #80 on: Aug 10, 2006, 06:37 PM »
I assumed they had a sort of regular pattern of meeting three times a year - evidently you couldn't camp out in February, hence May, August and November. Presumably Jack had an easier time getting away - he worked for the family firm, for starters, and had the excuse of needing to go and visit the folks, whom Lureen never met, so he could tell what tales he liked about Lightning Flat.

There's a way in which I rather like the postcards. They are unsophisticated, and Ennis in particular seems to me to have very little to do with modern forms of communication - he's even ill at ease on the phone, and I don't think that's entirely to do with the contentof the call. They are innocuous and in a way universal - there was a time when everyone sent postcards, even locally, but far more when on holiday. And that links with the rare meetings - they have something of the holiday about them. (Won't get into Bakhtin and the carnivalesque here but it must be relevant somehow.)

The other thing is that they are fragile and ephemeral - which represents the fragility of the communications link between them when they are apart - in the age of email and instant messaging and texts the whole thing would have been massively less effective.

I agree.  I wouldn't have it any other way than the postcards.  1963, after all.  I like how life was so much slower back then.  Long-distance calling was expensive, common folk didn't jump on airplanes at the drop of a hat, stores weren't open 24/7.  You could sit on the porch for about three days and nothing much would have happened...  You could go away for a week in the mountains...

Just a two-cents post.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #81 on: Aug 10, 2006, 11:33 PM »
Can't say nothin'. You guys said it all. :\'( :\'(

What she said.  This is a fascinating discussion, and y'all have said some amazingly insightful things.

kathy  :c)
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #82 on: Aug 11, 2006, 08:01 AM »
I don't think the punch was a serious problem, either.  They spent pretty much time together between the punch and finally parting by the truck.  I always thought Ennis bring up the punch in the motel room was kind of a joke.  He didn't really figure Jack was sore from that punch (and that punch sure didn't stop Jack from still wanting Ennis).  I think Ennis brought up the punch as kind of a little inside-joke, an intimacy almost, a meaningful moment from their past.  Even the way he says it, is so...almost sexy, with that afterglow smile...

kathy

It could be that Ennis brought up the punch as a gesture of wistfulness and affection.  IN a sense, that punch can be likened to a kiss.  It was just as emblematic, as it was sealed with blood.




Offline Rosie

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #83 on: Aug 11, 2006, 08:30 AM »
I don't think the punch was a serious problem, either.  They spent pretty much time together between the punch and finally parting by the truck.  I always thought Ennis bring up the punch in the motel room was kind of a joke.  He didn't really figure Jack was sore from that punch (and that punch sure didn't stop Jack from still wanting Ennis).  I think Ennis brought up the punch as kind of a little inside-joke, an intimacy almost, a meaningful moment from their past.  Even the way he says it, is so...almost sexy, with that afterglow smile...

kathy

It could be that Ennis brought up the punch as a gesture of wistfulness and affection.  IN a sense, that punch can be likened to a kiss.  It was just as emblematic, as it was sealed with blood.







I thought that he brought it up as a way of saying sorry for it. "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you were sore about that punch" (can't be sure they're the exact words at the moment, but they're pretty close if not) meaning when I wondered why you hadn't contacted me, I thought it was because I hit you when I shouldn't have, and you're angry about it. (I shouldn't have hit you, I loved you)

Because I hit you, you thought that meant that I didn't feel for you the way I really did. A bit like an admission  - in the back to front, never saying what they mean way they have of communicating together.   :i

Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back...    :s)  What do you think?

Sorry if I'm a little  *o) I was just thinking about the above posts! (Thinking out loud again!)
« Last Edit: Aug 11, 2006, 08:37 AM by Rosie »
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #84 on: Aug 11, 2006, 08:51 AM »

Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back...     :s)  What do you think?

Could be, Rosie, could be ...   :-\\

You all have shared some great thoughts about that punch, and what it might or might not have meant to both men during that time apart.  Hadn't thought on it before, so thank you!    (tpe ... likening it to a kiss ...  <^(  )

Now I'm considering ... maybe Ennis was half joking, half serious?  He himself (judging by both movie and story) didn't understand all that was inside him that made him throw that punch in the first place.  ss said it took him a year to figure out why he'd got sick after, and that was tied to the feelings behind the punch. 

So, if it took Ennis a long time to figure out what that punch really meant, maybe he was worried that Jack hadn't ever figured it out, that Jack hadn't been able to tell that there were love-feelings not just mad-feelings behind it.  Don't think Ennis trusted his own abilities to sort out his emotions; maybe he couldn't credit Jack with being able to figure them out either, so was a little worried that Jack had gone away thinking Ennis was just angry at him, that Ennis didn't want to see him again.

I think Ennis maybe did stew on that punch much more than Jack did during those four years.  Ennis may have instinctively known that Jack loved him, but couldn't be sure that Jack knew Ennis felt the same, since Ennis wasn't great at expressing himself ...

Sorry ... I'm babbling like an  ^*()   ^*()
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
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“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline tpe

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #85 on: Aug 11, 2006, 09:16 AM »
I thought that he brought it up as a way of saying sorry for it. "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you were sore about that punch" (can't be sure they're the exact words at the moment, but they're pretty close if not) meaning when I wondered why you hadn't contacted me, I thought it was because I hit you when I shouldn't have, and you're angry about it. (I shouldn't have hit you, I loved you)

Because I hit you, you thought that meant that I didn't feel for you the way I really did. A bit like an admission  - in the back to front, never saying what they mean way they have of communicating together.   :i

Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back...    :s)  What do you think?
Sorry if I'm a little  *o) I was just thinking about the above posts! (Thinking out loud again!)

Interesting, and I think I follow your thoughts here. 

I do think that part of Ennis's anger before they came down was rooted in his getting himself into a situation where he was deeply in love with Jack and that Ennis knew that Jack knew this.  I think this is also part of the reason why he resisted Jack's hints of meeting again in the future.  Ennis though his love had become all to obvious, and that his desire for Jack confirmed it all within himself. 

I do think Jack knew that was bothering Ennis then.  And as hinted at in many of the movie reviews and articles, Ennis instinctively reacted violently to something he could not cope with at that time: his desire and love for Jack.

4 years is a long time at that age.  The violence of the punch is mirrored in the violence of the reunion kiss.  As I had hinted in the above post, they serve as bookends to the 4 years of separation.




Offline tpe

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #86 on: Aug 11, 2006, 09:22 AM »

Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back...     :s)  What do you think?

Could be, Rosie, could be ...   :-\\

You all have shared some great thoughts about that punch, and what it might or might not have meant to both men during that time apart.  Hadn't thought on it before, so thank you!    (tpe ... likening it to a kiss ...  <^(  )

Now I'm considering ... maybe Ennis was half joking, half serious?  He himself (judging by both movie and story) didn't understand all that was inside him that made him throw that punch in the first place.  ss said it took him a year to figure out why he'd got sick after, and that was tied to the feelings behind the punch. 

So, if it took Ennis a long time to figure out what that punch really meant, maybe he was worried that Jack hadn't ever figured it out, that Jack hadn't been able to tell that there were love-feelings not just mad-feelings behind it.  Don't think Ennis trusted his own abilities to sort out his emotions; maybe he couldn't credit Jack with being able to figure them out either, so was a little worried that Jack had gone away thinking Ennis was just angry at him, that Ennis didn't want to see him again.

I think Ennis maybe did stew on that punch much more than Jack did during those four years.  Ennis may have instinctively known that Jack loved him, but couldn't be sure that Jack knew Ennis felt the same, since Ennis wasn't great at expressing himself ...

Sorry ... I'm babbling like an  ^*()   ^*()

You're not babbling, MississaugaRed.  I think we are thinking along the same lines here, though some conclusions may differ.  :)


Offline Rosie

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #87 on: Aug 11, 2006, 09:28 AM »




Sorry ... I'm babbling like an  ^*()   ^*()

Not to me you're not, I like a babble myself! :i

Thanks to you and to tpe, loved both of your answers......more to think about.  Don't we just love it?  :)
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline tpe

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #88 on: Aug 11, 2006, 09:39 AM »
[Don't we just love it?  :)

Indeed we do.  The 4 years be d*mned.  :)


Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage
« Reply #89 on: Aug 11, 2006, 10:19 AM »
[Don't we just love it?  :)

Indeed we do.  The 4 years be d*mned.  :)




Amen!   O0

I thought that he brought it up as a way of saying sorry for it. "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you were sore about that punch" (can't be sure they're the exact words at the moment, but they're pretty close if not) meaning when I wondered why you hadn't contacted me, I thought it was because I hit you when I shouldn't have, and you're angry about it. (I shouldn't have hit you, I loved you)

Because I hit you, you thought that meant that I didn't feel for you the way I really did. A bit like an admission  - in the back to front, never saying what they mean way they have of communicating together.   :i

Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back...    :s)  What do you think?
Sorry if I'm a little  *o) I was just thinking about the above posts! (Thinking out loud again!)

Interesting, and I think I follow your thoughts here. 

I do think that part of Ennis's anger before they came down was rooted in his getting himself into a situation where he was deeply in love with Jack and that Ennis knew that Jack knew this.   I think this is also part of the reason why he resisted Jack's hints of meeting again in the future.  Ennis though his love had become all to obvious, and that his desire for Jack confirmed it all within himself. 

I do think Jack knew that was bothering Ennis then.  And as hinted at in many of the movie reviews and articles, Ennis instinctively reacted violently to something he could not cope with at that time: his desire and love for Jack.

4 years is a long time at that age.  The violence of the punch is mirrored in the violence of the reunion kiss.  As I had hinted in the above post, they serve as bookends to the 4 years of separation.


I like the direction you're going, tpe!  Did Ennis think that Jack knew, or didn't he??  Your conclusion absolutely makes sense, too.   Isn't it great how similar roads can lead us to slightly different places?  And odds are, next time I view BBM, I may be inclined to see it your way. 

BBM is never the same to me twice, becasue each time I find I'm colouring it with various combinations of hues I've picked up from ej posters.  Keeps it fresh, and I love that.   <^(
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl