Topic: Four years, Damn ... / Four years of Damage

[tpe]

Hello MississaugaRed.  I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew.  Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment. 

Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time.  That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.

[MississaugaRed]

Hello MississaugaRed.  I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew.  Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment. 

Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time.  That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.

That is beautifully put, tpe, and I couldn't agree more.  :\'(   Ennis was such a private person, any sense that he was exposing parts of himself to someone would have painful. 

And heroic is indeed the perfect way to desribe Ennis's efforts during those four eyes apart.  A brave, battered hero, warring against his own desires; but when Jack contacts him after four years, he finds he can't hold ground against his desires and Jack's,  both ... the reunion kiss is at least a temporary surrender. 

[FlwrChild]

I like the direction you're going, tpe!  Did Ennis think that Jack knew, or didn't he??  Your conclusion absolutely makes sense, too.   Isn't it great how similar roads can lead us to slightly different places?  And odds are, next time I view BBM, I may be inclined to see it your way. 

BBM is never the same to me twice, becasue each time I find I'm colouring it with various combinations of hues I've picked up from ej posters.  Keeps it fresh, and I love that.   

Exactly MissRed! I love the way the movie and ennisjack.com continue to feed each other!

[FlwrChild]

Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time.  That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.

Agreed tpe!

Wonderful posts! Thanks for sharing everyone!

[tpe]

Hello MississaugaRed.  I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew.  Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment. 

Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time.  That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.

That is beautifully put, tpe, and I couldn't agree more.  :\'(   Ennis was such a private person, any sense that he was exposing parts of himself to someone would have painful. 

And heroic is indeed the perfect way to desribe Ennis's efforts during those four eyes apart.  A brave, battered hero, warring against his own desires; but when Jack contacts him after four years, he finds he can't hold ground against his desires and Jack's,  both ... the reunion kiss is at least a temporary surrender.  

Yes, this is exactly the way I see it.

He abandons himself to love at that very moment.

Im am sure FlwrChild will agree with me here: beautifully said.

[MississaugaRed]

Seems regardless of our thoughts and conclusion of events before and after, the reunion kiss finds us always on common ground; it is iconic of the love, passion and committment that was and will be the corner stone of their lives. 

[tpe]

Seems regardless of our thoughts and conclusion of events before and after, the reunion kiss finds us always on common ground; it is iconic of the love, passion and committment that was and will be the corner stone of their lives. 

Who does not hunger for a kiss like that.  I would wait 40 years for such a surrender.

[FlwrChild]

Seems regardless of our thoughts and conclusion of events before and after, the reunion kiss finds us always on common ground; it is iconic of the love, passion and committment that was and will be the corner stone of their lives. 

Who does not hunger for a kiss like that.  I would wait 40 years for such a surrender.

As would I...
And yes I agree with your statement above!

[welshwitch]

There's a point in "The Thornbirds" - OK, not great lit but it says a lot about love, if not very literately) when the main character says, of the woman who loves him far more than he will ever love anyone but himself,"If only I could love like that." Many of us would alter that to "If only I could be loved like that" when we think about the reunion kiss, more selfish than the first, but it's human nature to wanr, need to be loved.

[FlwrChild]

There's a point in "The Thornbirds" - OK, not great lit but it says a lot about love, if not very literately) when the main character says, of the woman who loves him far more than he will ever love anyone but himself,"If only I could love like that." Many of us would alter that to "If only I could be loved like that" when we think about the reunion kiss, more selfish than the first, but it's human nature to wanr, need to be loved.

And this is probably one reason we are so drawn to the boys. They may not realize what they have but we do.

[welshwitch]

And we know how rare, and how improbable, it is. whichis why it's tragic - that they throw away, for all sorts of reasons, something everyone would like to have.

[FlwrChild]

Exactly welshwitch! And upon reflection, my post probably should have read:

They may not realize what they have (or how to nurture and protect it), but we do.

[MississaugaRed]

And we know how rare, and how improbable, it is. whichis why it's tragic - that they throw away, for all sorts of reasons, something everyone would like to have.

Exactly welshwitch! And upon reflection, my post probably should have read:

They may not realize what they have (or how to nurture and protect it), but we do.

ww & FlwrChld ....     

[tpe]

Yes, wonderful exchange.

Pix by Twisted

[MississaugaRed]

tpe ... thank you (& twisted) for that picture!      

Kisses aside ... the times I feel their love for each other the most intensely is when they are forehead to forehead like that ...

OT,  but even in FNIT the most passionate moment to me is when they are kneeling, face to face, hands holding each other heads and necks, foreheads pressed together ... more intense than what follows even ...  they shut the rest of the world out in those moments.   

[FlwrChild]

tpe ... thank you (& twisted) for that picture!      

Kisses aside ... the times I feel their love for each other the most intensely is when they are forehead to forehead like that ...

OT,  but even in FNIT the most passionate moment to me is when they are kneeling, face to face, hands holding each other heads and necks, foreheads pressed together ... more intense than what follows even ...  they shut the rest of the world out in those moments.   

I agree MissRed. Those are some of the best moments! It's so intimate....

[MississaugaRed]

I agree MissRed. Those are some of the best moments! It's so intimate....

That's it, exactly!!!       Thank you, Lady Fleur!   

I love that moment ... that's the spark that never died ... 

[tpe]

I do think the scenes of the 4 years were very effective cinematic devices that prepare us for the reunion scene.  All the scenes were very episodical, like small vigniettes that build up the tension right before the embrace and kiss.  Some people may find all the scense during the 4 years boring.  But it carefully builds our anticipation for for that scene when they are reunited.

[MississaugaRed]

So true, tpe. And I've personally never found the 4 year interlude boring ... rather, sad and lonely and yearning.  Necessary to build the sense of loss and the contast between what they had together and what they settled for apart.

The wating (for them and for us) is what makes that reunion explosive.

Jack and Ennis kept the flame between them dampened down for those four years, but it was smothering inside them the whole time.  Seeing each other again was like a rush of fresh air into an oxygen-starved fire ... it flash burned!

[tpe]

So true, tpe. And I've personally never found the 4 year interlude boring ... rather, sad and lonely and yearning.  Necessary to build the sense of loss and the contast between what they had together and what they settled for apart.

The wating (for them and for us) is what makes that reunion explosive.

Jack and Ennis kept the flame between them dampened down for those four years, but it was smothering inside them the whole time.  Seeing each other again was like a rush of fresh air into an oxygen-starved fire ... it flash burned!

Ang Lee certainly did not hurry the interveneing scenes during the 4 years, no?  Quite amazing how much tension you can build from seemingly prosaic scenes.   

Yes, the renion is like lighting a match in an hydrogen-filled room.

[Rosie]

Hello MississaugaRed.  I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew.  Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment. 

That quote above has got me rushing to my dvd to watch that again. Thanks tpe 
I love this thread today, so interesting. The insights by everyone and oh! the lovely pictures!   (That forhead to forhead stuff they do, I wonder if Ang Lee or the boys themselves decided on it?)  Ummm......
And I've never found the 4 year interlude boring either, for the same reasons MississaugaRed says  - it was necessary to show their rather sad time
apart compared to the power of their joy at the reunion. Ennis was so overcome with emotion at seeing Jack he didn't waste time worrying that Jack knew then...     A hydrogen explosion indeed!

[tpe]

That quote above has got me rushing to my dvd to watch that again. Thanks tpe 
I love this thread today, so interesting. The insights by everyone and oh! the lovely pictures!   (That forhead to forhead stuff they do, I wonder if Ang Lee or the boys themselves decided on it?)  Ummm......
And I've never found the 4 year interlude boring either, for the same reasons MississaugaRed says  - it was necessary to show their rather sad time apart compared to the power of their joy at the reunion. Ennis was so overcome with emotion at seeing Jack he didn't waste time worrying that Jack knew then...     A hydrogen explosion indeed!

Hi Rosie.  I suspect that Heath and Jake decided on how to do the kiss scene.  THis is because Jake had said that Ang Lee did not really tell them things explicitly.  But the way Heath and Jake did it was spectacular.  It felt more than real.

Compare and contrast.  I think your above comment is close to the heart of why the 4 years was a necessary part of the journey.

[MississaugaRed]

That quote above has got me rushing to my dvd to watch that again. Thanks tpe 
I love this thread today, so interesting. The insights by everyone and oh! the lovely pictures!   (That forhead to forhead stuff they do, I wonder if Ang Lee or the boys themselves decided on it?)  Ummm......
And I've never found the 4 year interlude boring either, for the same reasons MississaugaRed says  - it was necessary to show their rather sad time apart compared to the power of their joy at the reunion. Ennis was so overcome with emotion at seeing Jack he didn't waste time worrying that Jack knew then...     A hydrogen explosion indeed!

Hi Rosie.  I suspect that Heath and Jake decided on how to do the kiss scene.  THis is because Jake had said that Ang Lee did not really tell them things explicitly.  But the way Heath and Jake did it was spectacular.  It felt more than real.

Compare and contrast.  I think your above comment is close to the heart of why the 4 years was a necessary part of the journey.

Same goes, Rosie! 

The 4 years had to also justify the men they had become, compared to the boys they had been on Brokeback.  It was necessary to show the ways life had beaten them down, or built them up, or just plain transmuted them through the passage of time.

[tpe]

Hi Rosie.  I suspect that Heath and Jake decided on how to do the kiss scene.  THis is because Jake had said that Ang Lee did not really tell them things explicitly.  But the way Heath and Jake did it was spectacular.  It felt more than real.

Compare and contrast.  I think your above comment is close to the heart of why the 4 years was a necessary part of the journey.

Same goes, Rosie! 

The 4 years had to also justify the men they had become, compared to the boys they had been on Brokeback.  It was necessary to show the ways life had beaten them down, or built them up, or just plain transmuted them through the passage of time.

I love this imagery.  Thanks.

[welshwitch]

And how love transmutes them when they are together - alchemy.

[ksxks]

The violence of the punch is mirrored in the violence of the reunion kiss.

This is wonderful idea, tpe.

Also, I want to say about the punch, to remember that a punch between two such physical men such as this is just not a huge deal.  They probably both grew up fist-fighting.  Totally unlike if, say, Ennis had punched Alma.  That would be the end of it -- divorce court sooner rather than later -- unless, of course, she was the kind to put up with it because she couldn't make a life on her own yet, and the other reasons women stay with battering husbands.  But in any event, both Ennis and Jack were aware of where that punch came from.

kathy

[ksxks]

I like the direction you're going, tpe!  Did Ennis think that Jack knew, or didn't he??  Your conclusion absolutely makes sense, too.   Isn't it great how similar roads can lead us to slightly different places?  And odds are, next time I view BBM, I may be inclined to see it your way. 

BBM is never the same to me twice, becasue each time I find I'm colouring it with various combinations of hues I've picked up from ej posters.  Keeps it fresh, and I love that.   

That really is a beautiful thing about BBM and ennisjack.com and all the rest.  We get to view it with different eyes each time after all this discussion, and bring those different seeings back here, and then back to viewing the movie again, and it just keeps building on itself...

kathy

[ksxks]

Hello MississaugaRed.  I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew.  Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment. 

Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time.  That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.

More lovely, insightful stuff, tpe.  And all of you.  I love your first paragraph above, that Jack's tenderness and compassion made it obvious to Ennis that Jack could see right through him and knew how he felt.  I just love, love, love this Jack, his tenderness and compassion.  Such a beautiful man, for this and all the other reasons.

This makes me visualize the lassooing scene itself, the whole scene before Ennis punches him, starting with Jack looking at him up on the hill and taking his lasso off the horse.  I would just fall into that man's arms and cry my heart out if I were in Ennis's place...after tumbling down the hillside wrestling...  You know it would have excited them at the same time, at first anyway, at least I think -- and that probably added to Ennis's frustration.  He loved Jack emotionally and sexually, and it was just too much for him, and that huge welling up came out in his fists.

Just another little minor moment:  I love how the punch threw Ennis off balance himself, and he had to lean his hand on Jack's back to stand upright again.

And another:  backing up toward the beginning of the scene, I love Jack's laughing when he first tripped Ennis with the lasso and Ennis started reeling him in and then they started wrestling.  It was fun and funny at first.  We'll have to really study this sequence to see the exact moment it stopped being funny.

But mostly I love Jack's "Ennis...Ennis," holding onto him, trying to help him after his nose is bloodied.

kathy

[FlwrChild]

Kathy, what a beautiful summary! I too love Jack in this scene. And poor Ennis. Oh how often I say that. And as to the fight , I mentioned before somewhere the wrestling scene from right after SNIT, which had a very different ending. I think your take on this one is spot on. As to the exact moment it went off-course, I'm not sure. Dang, I might have to watch it again! I will say this though. The whole thing was beautifully choreogaphed.

[CrimsonSky]

The fight on the hillside is one of the scenes that really gets me,my heart just breaks for both of them :\'(  It's hard to say at when exactly it all goes wrong, but there's a point where they're suddenly not laughing anymore,but they're sort of grunting instead,Jack is on top of Ennis, and Ennis looks like he's trying to push Jack off. Maybe that was the moment when Ennis was becoming aroused, and it suddenly hit him how he felt about Jack,emotionally, physically, the lot, how was he going to cope now he had to leave him, and how could he go back to "real life", after every thing he'd felt and discovered with Jack? He's feeling scared, frustrated, angry, and in so much pain, and he lets it all out the only way he knows how, with his fists I sometimes wonder if Ennis actually wanted Jack to hit him at first, if he wanted to feel physical pain hoping it might ease the emotional pain he was feeling...and maybe he wanted an excuse to hit Jack, to make Jack feel the same pain, not to hurt Jack, but to make him realise how much he (Ennis) is suffering...I also feel that Ennis in a way blames Jack for making him feel that way about him,like in their final scene "It's cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this" :\'(  Ahdunno, I'm rambling here... :-[ It's just weird the way I feel more sorry for Ennis than Jack here, even though Jack's my...I hate to use the word "favourite" with these two, cause it's not the right word, but I can't think what is right now...and I know from personal experience some of what Jack's going through there, but it's Ennis who really really makes me feel for him, even more than Jack

Back to the motel scene, I agree that Ennis mentions it as a sort of apology, and also he can't hide his relirf that obviously Jack wasn't sore about it, and so maybe he understood what the reasons were for the punch.