Author Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion (Read 95740 times)

WyMe · « **Reply #90 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 11:16 AM »

This defiant statement comes from his being older, more experienced and knowing he can get what he wants other than from Ennis. It also comes, I think, from his secure financial position and his belief that he is safe enough in his everyday life. And it's the thing that makesm e think he's ready to give up on Ennis at least as far as the sweet life is concerned - he first went to Mexico after the divorce scene, but he's kept it quiet for years - now he either thinks if Ennis knows he'll realise how desperate he is or just doesn't care how knowing will affect Ennis.

I also think it was born out of Ennis bringing up this issue about his sexuality. In earlier days, he would have denied it or played along. In the last meeting, it feels like he has had enough...

So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?

tpe · « **Reply #91 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 11:53 AM »

Quote from: WyMe on Aug 21, 2006, 11:16 AM

So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?

Ahhh, that's a good question. It has been discussed in a number of thread (i.e., those dealing with the last meeting and whether Jack gave up on Ennis).

I would like to think that he would not be able to pass up a meeting with Ennis. But the other possibility (that he would not) is just as likely...

aimi15 · « **Reply #92 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 12:06 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 21, 2006, 11:53 AM

Quote from: WyMe on Aug 21, 2006, 11:16 AM
So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?

Ahhh, that's a good question. It has been discussed in a number of thread (i.e., those dealing with the last meeting and whether Jack gave up on Ennis).

I would like to think that he would not be able to pass up a meeting with Ennis. But the other possibility (that he would not) is just as likely...

Hmm, it is interesting. The romantic in me would love to think nothing would have kept him away, but the truth is he kept going back and getting hurt. Maybe that last argument was the final straw? :\'( Hate to think that tho.

WyMe · « **Reply #93 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 01:24 PM »

So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?

Ahhh, that's a good question. It has been discussed in a number of thread (i.e., those dealing with the last meeting and whether Jack gave up on Ennis).

I would like to think that he would not be able to pass up a meeting with Ennis. But the other possibility (that he would not) is just as likely...

Sorry to be going over old stuff, but I only saw the film for the first time 10 days ago. It is the most affecting film I've seen for a long, long time. How Heath Ledger didn't get Best Actor, I don't know....

tpe · « **Reply #94 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 02:11 PM »

Quote from: WyMe on Aug 21, 2006, 01:24 PM

So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?

Ahhh, that's a good question. It has been discussed in a number of thread (i.e., those dealing with the last meeting and whether Jack gave up on Ennis).

I would like to think that he would not be able to pass up a meeting with Ennis. But the other possibility (that he would not) is just as likely...

Sorry to be going over old stuff, but I only saw the film for the first time 10 days ago. It is the most affecting film I've seen for a long, long time. How Heath Ledger didn't get Best Actor, I don't know....

WyMe, I didn't mean to discourage you for asking this. I don't think this was ever resolved in any case... It is a good question, certainly worth revisiting.

WyMe · « **Reply #95 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 03:14 PM »

WyMe, I didn't mean to discourage you for asking this. I don't think this was ever resolved in any case... It is a good question, certainly worth revisiting.

:-) I just wished I'd seen the film when it first came out (although blubbing in the cinema might have been embarrassing!). Trying to catch up with what I've missed on these dicussion groups.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #96 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 03:19 PM »

Sorry if OT but welcome WyMe!
Hope you enjoy the process. We love to hear anything you have to say.

amtamburo · « **Reply #97 on:** Aug 21, 2006, 06:23 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 21, 2006, 07:37 AM

amtamburo, did you not also post an interesting opinion about whether or not Ennis was gay?

Whether I agree or not agree with all your conclusions, there is no doubt in my mind that you had thought about these topics very carefully. For this I thank you.

Yes I did. I have thought about this a lot... I think mostly because the story has caused me to explore myself on these levels and in doing so I found myself examining Jack and Ennis.

The things I stated in my posts are only my thoughts and feelings... I don't expect anyone to agree with me nor do I want to change anyone else's opinion. Just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

Btw... when i commented on Jack not having changed... I was talking about while they were on the mountain in 1963 during their initial "courting" of each other...

tpe · « **Reply #98 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 07:50 AM »

Quote from: amtamburo on Aug 21, 2006, 06:23 PM

Quote from: tpe on Aug 21, 2006, 07:37 AM
amtamburo, did you not also post an interesting opinion about whether or not Ennis was gay?

Whether I agree or not agree with all your conclusions, there is no doubt in my mind that you had thought about these topics very carefully. For this I thank you.

Yes I did. I have thought about this a lot... I think mostly because the story has caused me to explore myself on these levels and in doing so I found myself examining Jack and Ennis.

The things I stated in my posts are only my thoughts and feelings... I don't expect anyone to agree with me nor do I want to change anyone else's opinion. Just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

Btw... when i commented on Jack not having changed... I was talking about while they were on the mountain in 1963 during their initial "courting" of each other...

Yes, I don't think the point of these discussions is to change anyone's mind. It always helps to get different points of view. It helps clarify what we believe and do not believe. In a lot of these instances where we compare and contrast, it is really very personal.

welshwitch · « **Reply #99 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 10:17 AM »

Do you know one of the reasons I love Jack is because he doesn't apparently analyze himself - he just is what he is and doesn't care. I doubt if it ever crosses his mind to work out what he is or whether he should be whatever it is - he just goes ahead and does it. Paradoxically though he seems the more intelligent of the two, he strikes me as less self-analytical than Ennis.

tpe · « **Reply #100 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 10:26 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 22, 2006, 10:17 AM

Do you know one of the reasons I love Jack is because he doesn't apparently analyze himself - he just is what he is and doesn't care. I doubt if it ever crosses his mind to work out what he is or whether he should be whatever it is - he just goes ahead and does it. Paradoxically though he seems the more intelligent of the two, he strikes me as less self-analytical than Ennis.

I do think Jack is more accepting of himself and his desires. It he would have been more analytical, perhaps we would not have been as accepting.

welshwitch · « **Reply #101 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 10:30 AM »

Just as much as the tag line of the movie says of love, Jack seems to me to be a force of nature.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #102 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 10:54 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 22, 2006, 10:30 AM

Just as much as the tag line of the movie says of love, Jack seems to me to be a force of nature.

Welshwitch - I thought that, too!

FlwrChild · « **Reply #103 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 11:48 AM »

I love this sentiment! Thanks welshwitch.

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #104 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 12:48 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 22, 2006, 10:30 AM

Just as much as the tag line of the movie says of love, Jack seems to me to be a force of nature.

Yes, thank you, welshwitch .. have to agree with FlwrChld & Jesseanne21 ... very much love that sentiment.

Jack (and his sexuality) as a force of nature ... and Ennis fighting both his own nature and the force of Jack's. I also liked very much what you and tpe had said earlier ... about Jack not being as analytical as Ennis. Jack seemed to find some peace in accepting himself, his self-analysis, whenever it may have occurred, must have been resolved early on with less conflict than Ennis felt. Which was a good thing, since he was dealing with Ennis's denial forever.

Do you think it was especially difficult for Jack ??... after finding his own self-acceptance of his sexuality, always being faced with Ennis's lack thereof ... ??

welshwitch · « **Reply #105 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 03:21 PM »

I think if you're not particularly introverted or self-aware or analytical and just accept yourself as you are, it's difficult to see why someone else isn't the same. Jack evidently doesn't find any problem in accepting himself as he is; i should think that eventually, once all the excuses have been exhausted - got to work to feed the familt, got to get back to my wife, etc., Jack must have become increasingly impatient with Ennis's constant rebuffs. It's difficult to see that what are not problems or obstacles to you are to someone else the size of Everest.

Somewhere at some deep level i wonder if Jack in acknowledging his own sexuality didn't eventually find Ennis's denial of his own some sort of unspoken criticism. Perhaps that's what led Jack to feel, once he got over his tears, defiant or even defiled after the post-divorce scene so that he made the Mexico trip in a sort of "Oh, well,if that's all you think I'm worth then I may as well be like that" frame of mind. In that case Randall would be the more acceptable face of gayness, and on the outside at least a better Ennis-substitute than some Mexican hustler;unlike Ennis too Randall gave every sign of wanting to be involved with Jack and recognising him as like himself, which is a sort of validation he didn't get from Ennis.

Maybe this is too convoluted but it seems psychologically plausible to me.

welshwitch · « **Reply #106 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 03:31 PM »

If I were to pursue that thought, I'd also say that if you were Jack, always the initiator, the one who re-started it all, the one who always came running when he was allowed to and went away when he was sent off, the one who arrived early and waited impatiently, the one who spent his whole life metaphorically waiiting for the phone to ring, then during the meeting had the most amazing sex - the ss talks of "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings" but the putup with seeing your partner repeatedly walk away back to a life that seemed so limited and unrewarding, preferring that to you, not ready to accept all you wanted to give - then it wouldn't be human not to wonder about where your sexuality had led you and whether you were really as worthless as you were sometimes made to feel.

Been there, done that, have the scars to prove it.

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #107 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 03:40 PM »

Wow ... and wow ...

I'm completely blown away by your last two posts, Welshwitch ... I feel like I came to the table for a light snack, and found a whole banquet... thank you!!!!! That was just so .... amazing ...

much to think about, much to ponder ...

ksxks · « **Reply #108 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 04:44 PM »

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Aug 22, 2006, 03:40 PM

Wow ... and wow ...

I'm completely blown away by your last two posts, Welshwitch ... I feel like I came to the table for a light snack, and found a whole banquet... thank you!!!!! That was just so .... amazing ... much to think about, much to ponder ...

I agree, WW. I'm thinking...I'm feeling...

You do have Jack down -- you obviously know from whence you speak.

kathy

welshwitch · « **Reply #109 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 04:44 PM »

That came from a deep dark corner inside me, one where i rarely go. Relates to my distant past and my more recent one too- Jack interests me precisely because of these resonances, because he's accepted what he is without apparent question then been gradually made to see that the man he loves is questioning what he himself is and by implication also not just questioning what Jack is but the whole basis of all the assumptions he never really realized he'd made, the relationships he's made and why he's made them.

If he ever consciously analyzed himself later, was forced into it by Ennis's attitude, he must also have looked at his relationship with Lureen and seen that in a whole different way too - or himself. And the way he then perceived himself, filtered through what he may think Ennis's view is, might be devastating.Suddenly seeing yourself as someone you think loves you sees you and finding it's not waht you assumed it was is frighteningl and can be immensely destructive. And it's worse for Jack because Ennis is so uncommunicative for most of their time together then all he gets from him at the end is the dreadful " boys like you" and the accusation"It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this."

It's so destructive as to be almost unbearable. There's a sense in which after that Jack had nowhere to go so that his death becomes appropriate.

ksxks · « **Reply #110 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 04:49 PM »

Ww, you are ripping my guts out, hand over hand, with this. This is so tragic, that through Ennis's refusal to own himself, Jack's own beautiful free spirit -- the force of nature that it is -- dies...

kathy

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #111 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 04:55 PM »

Just when I thought I couldn't find new reasons to shed tears for our boys, you two do this. :\'(

kathy, welshwitch, the dimensions you're adding are priceless ...

welshwitch · « **Reply #112 on:** Aug 22, 2006, 05:07 PM »

And if you're ever forced to question yourself in this way, later you can never forget it - it's always there inside you like a gremlin waiting to pop up. You can never put back exactly as it was your vision of what there was or what you are - nearly, maybe, but not entirely. After that there's always the crack in the golden bowl, or, as Leontes says,
There may be in the cup
A spider steep'd, and one may drink, depart,
And yet partake no venom ( for his knowledge
Is not infected): but if one present
The abhorr'd ingredient to his eye, make known
How he hath drunk, he cracks his gorge, his sides,
With violent hefts. I have drunk, and seen the spider.
By their last confrontation, if not before, Jack has seen the spider.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #113 on:** Aug 23, 2006, 10:28 AM »

:\'( :\'( :\'(

Thanks for sharing gals! Beautiful but devastating!

tpe · « **Reply #114 on:** Aug 23, 2006, 02:01 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 22, 2006, 05:07 PM

And if you're ever forced to question yourself in this way, later you can never forget it - it's always there inside you like a gremlin waiting to pop up. You can never put back exactly as it was your vision of what there was or what you are - nearly, maybe, but not entirely. After that there's always the crack in the golden bowl, or, as Leontes says,
There may be in the cup
A spider steep'd, and one may drink, depart,
And yet partake no venom ( for his knowledge
Is not infected): but if one present
The abhorr'd ingredient to his eye, make known
How he hath drunk, he cracks his gorge, his sides,
With violent hefts. I have drunk, and seen the spider.
By their last confrontation, if not before, Jack has seen the spider.

Like him who day by day unto his draught
Of delicate poison adds him one drop more
Till he may drink unharmed the death of ten,
Even so, inured to beauty, who have quaffed
Each hour more deeply than the hour before,
I drink -- and live -- what has destroyed some men.

Rosie · « **Reply #115 on:** Aug 23, 2006, 02:16 PM »

Wow, wonderful posts everyone. Nothing to add of my own. Just pondering your words and thoughts. Thinking of our boy Jack. :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #116 on:** Aug 23, 2006, 02:18 PM »

Quote from: Rosie on Aug 23, 2006, 02:16 PM

Wow, wonderful posts everyone. Nothing to add of my own. Just pondering your words and thoughts. Thinking of our boy Jack. :\'(

I do believe that Jack treasured a love that would have killed lesser men. Whatever his sexuality, I do believe that this is true.

josh_bob · « **Reply #117 on:** Aug 23, 2006, 02:47 PM »

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 28, 2006, 10:08 AM

Quote from: lamusica on Jul 27, 2006, 07:09 PM
Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?

I don't think Jack was afraid as such. I think when he denies that he's queer to Ennis, he is holding back, knowing that if he tells Ennis the truth then there's every chance that Ennis will stop their physical relationship from continuing. I think he's already pretty sure about what he wants and needs, but he knows that Ennis isn't. Ennis states catagorically that he's not queer so intead of risking everything, Jack agrees with him, letting Ennis think that this really is a one shot thing, between two very good friends, with nothing more to it than that.

Once back in the real world, Jack tries to pick up other men (Jimbo the rodeo clown) but fails and so, when Lureen comes on to him, he allows it to happen, wanting some sort of physical connection with another person, even if it's not what he really needs (there is, of course, the added attraction of LD Newsome's money - but that's a whole 'nother discussion!)

After he reunites with Ennis, I'm guessing that he probably had no real physical relationship with Lureen - this, I think, is shown when he only gives her a perfunctory kiss when he's leaving to go off on a trip with Ennis. If there was something more in their relationship, it surely would have shown when he was leaving for a week?

And then, of course, we know that he starts to become more sexually active with men after Ennis' divorce - by which time I think he has realised that Ennis isn't going to change, so there's no reason to hide his sexuality any more - no more risk of frightening Ennis off, because Ennis is already frightened enough.

Of course, he even ends up admitting it to Ennis....which, I think, is the final confirmation that he's always been "that way".

Just my 2p worth, mind....

Bravo! i absolutely agree with this. This the best reason I have read, and I couldnt have said it better myself! Good Job!!!! Kudos to you!

tpe · « **Reply #118 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 03:59 PM »

Bumping this up for easier reference...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #119 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 04:24 PM »

We know that Ennis could'nt admit that he was gay, but how exactly did he see Jack? Did he think of Jack as gay? If he thought of Jack as homosexual, then how would he justify his own love for him and his paticipation in the relationship without admitting his own gayness? This was much deeper than just sex. I think it's MAJOR denial . In other words, how does Ennis define Jack's sexuality? It seems there's a major contradiction. I think Jack was definitly gay as he only sought out men and the only woman he got involved with was Lureen...but she sought him out. Not the other way around.

Author Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion (Read 95740 times)

aimi15