First of all I know that they loved very deeply, Did Ennis see Jack as a gay male? What was it about this love that kept Jack coming back to Ennis for 20 years without a commitment? Did'nt he start to feel used by Ennis at SOME point? Aside from the physical part.was Ennis an addictive challange for Jack? He ( Ennis) could not admit himself gay but how did he really think of Jack.? Jack made no secret to Ennis about what he preferred sexually from the start. How could Ennis justify his own denial. to himself? Yeah I understand the fear of harm and everything but there has to be more to it on a personal level for both of them. with verbal communication lacking, Jack argued with Ennis about "not wanting " to share a life together. Personally I think Ennis did want it but for some reason he would not. An abuse of power maybe? Why in the world , knowing what Jack wanted and craved so much ,would Ennis deny him a permanant life? IMO Ennis should have been willing to sacrifice one last time in order to prove the ultimate test of love to one so truly deserving of it. Jack. He was so worth a shot .
And I suppose, even if they misunderstood each other, there was kind of a sweet purity to the fact that they weren't particularly analytical and that to each other they were just Jack and Ennis.
Yes, I understand that they were "just Jack and Ennis" but Ennis withheld something inside himself that was almost essential to Jack's happiness and that was the acknowledgement that they were the same. Ennis's " I ain't queer ' attitude was unacceptable . If Jack expected to live with Ennis, Ennis would have to come to terms with this "thing" as he put it if this relationship was going to grow.These feelings were'nt going away any time soon so he might as well just accept them, but that's easier said than done. the question is could Ennis do it? He would be required to look deep within and see himself on an equal plane with Jack and that's a very high standard for Ennis to acheive. Self-denial would defintly no longer sit well with Jack. He would need to know that Ennis fully accepted who he was. To deny himself was to deny Jack.
"This thing" is an odd expression too, in that it makes it sound as though the feeling betweeen them is a separate entity, a sort of third in a triangle, and that third is dangerous and destructive. Ennis clearly doesn't want to see his feelings as part of him, and almost appears to be taking the attitude that Jack's aren't a part of Jack either. There are the two of them then this alien thing which affects them both but has to be fought against, presumably by each of them. It never seems to occur to him, or if it does he never acknowledges it, that Jack accepts what he never can and doesn;t see it as anything separate from himself.
Jack had to understand Ennis in order to accept this nothing short of shame about what they were doing too. When he told Jack that they could meet "out in the middle of nowhere" every once in a while is very telling, but he played on Jack's emotions and longing when he attached "aint no reins on this one" to the statement. Jack was so wanting to be with Ennis that he accepted this as Ennis being unable to control what he felt after 4 long years, and I beleive that this is actually what it was imo, but he soon found out that Ennis himself WAS the reins on the relationship. It was Ennis's own conflicts within that pulled those reins in each time Jack asked more from him. Soon it became a false hope to Jack and he could no longer deny to himself that Ennis was not going to move forward with him. He gave Ennis all kinds of clues as to what his state of mind was at that last meeting asking Ennis " after all this time you never found nobody else to marry? and then " telling Ennis about the ranch foreman's wife on the side, and finally " I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". To me these are all clues to Ennis that Jack was feeling "lost" and he was relaying to Ennis that these were things to show he was tired of the status quo and ""drifting "away time just waiting. When Ennis moved back the date of the next meeting,Jack had to feel that Ennis was'nt "getting it" and explained it to him finally in a language that Ennis could understand. When he did that, He saw Ennis breakdown, raw and uncensored. He drove Ennis to his breaking point.
I'm only talking from Ennis's view point. Could it be that it wasn't only what happened to Earl and Rich, that stayed with Ennis, but the fact that he equated Earl and Rich, to him and Jack. Remember how Ennis remembered them, "They were the joke of the town, but they were tough old birds", He remembered them, he remembered what was said of them. In other words, "I am them, they are me". Does this make sense? It goes to the fact of how Ennis identified himself. Why didn't Jack remember this, and tried to reach Ennis "we are not them, they are not us".
"This thing" is an odd expression too, in that it makes it sound as though the feeling betweeen them is a separate entity, a sort of third in a triangle, and that third is dangerous and destructive. Ennis clearly doesn't want to see his feelings as part of him, and almost appears to be taking the attitude that Jack's aren't a part of Jack either. There are the two of them then this alien thing which affects them both but has to be fought against, presumably by each of them. It never seems to occur to him, or if it does he never acknowledges it, that Jack accepts what he never can and doesn;t see it as anything separate from himself.
That "I'm not you" remark says a lot about how they haven't, in Jack's opinion, grown together. Though they may have grown
old(er), they've grown old(er) separately. Now Jack is pointing out, if he hasn't seen it before, which I think he must have done, that they aren't one and the same, as lovers often claim to be, not two halves of one whole but two separate and different people.Ennis never sees, or thinks, either, that Rich and Earl may have had many years together, and might have been glad they'd had them despite how it all ended. Ironically Jack and Ennis ended up in exactly the same way, but without having had the years together.
Jack's point of view, the "dozy embrace" is what he and Ennis were. You can say what you will about Jack, but from that point on he viewed themselves being that, till his death. That is what he wanted back. That what was his "sweet life". Ennis was the only obstacle in the way of that life. Jack was exhausted, tire of the battle. "You're too much for me." Jack finally admitted after 20 years to himself , he couldn't fight against Ennis unwillingness anymore.
I agree wholeheartely with you both! the dozy embrace Ennis was the evidence, the proof if you will for Jack that somewhere deep inside the was a part of Ennis that was free to love without conditions. To love them. A truly "no reins on this one" Ennis. He had seen it,felt it too.This says to me had he lived he would hadve tried to find that Ennis again. He was in there somwhere hiding.in fear...but he was there ..waiting for Jack to find him again.
Is there a time established for this lovley scene? I often wonder why Jack was so "dozy". Sleeping on his feet? One guess. This seems to be the one time that I see Ennis completely relaxed and comfortable with Jack and him as a couple. His love for Jack and "comfort zone" Ennis is in here stands out . no wonder This moment came back to Jack as Ennis drove away in that last meeting. This is the Ennis that Jack fell in love with,so caring and supportive.It also shows the contrast that the toll of Ennis's fears took on them both at the end.
I liken it to a newly divorced couple who thinks back on the happeier times in the marriage. In lots of ways their relationship was like a marriage and 20 years is a long time . The sex was good, but indeed it is all the other things: companionship, comfort,and just the familiarity that sustains the relationship. Jack understood Ennis's fears and lived with his faults as married couples do . How many straight couples break up bacause one party cannot commit due to fear of being tied down to one person etc? Ennis was not afraid of being tied down by Jack in the same sense but the hurt and pain is not any less for Jack. He needed answers from Ennis, hopfully ones he wanted to hear , that Ennis was say finally say yes to a partnership and a sweet life together. Sadly it was not to be.
If Ennis had also remembered the Dozy Embrace as something special, perhaps they would have seen eye to eye... Perhaps he would have understood Jack at last.
Maybe Ennis will remember it when he dreams of Jack.
The shirts themselves were a key to Jack.
He stole Ennis's shirt after the fight the last day on Brokeback.
He kept it during the four years they weren't together.
Of course Jack had his demons too. Remember, for all that these shirts meant to him he kept them up in Lightning Flat, "hidden" in the back corner of his boyhood closet. He keep them where all his other childhood dreams were stored, away from his "everyday" life with Lurleen and Bobby. It was like a fantasy life that he never realized, as one's childhood toys and dreams often represent.
jackster
I may be OT here, but I don't really think so. Forgive me if I am. But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such. They were friends. They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another. Granted, they acted out these feelings in very different ways.
However, I do NOT like the new forum banner for this exact reason. It does not stay true to Ennis and Jack's view of one another. (I'm not a fan of manips in any form, really, so that may be why I have reacted so strongly to this banner.) Jack would not have looked at Ennis as he is in this manip, in my opinion, and he was NOT Ennis's little darling like Alma was. I find this banner disturbing and untrue to their real relationship. As I said, this is just my opinion, but I felt I had to say it.
Ennis was a walking contradiction. He never reconciled himself to idea of Jack, being a man, him loving him, his raw sexual need for him, and above all his inability to let him go, but keeping him at a distance he could handle. How in the heck did they keep from killing each other?
Of course Jack had his demons too. Remember, for all that these shirts meant to him he kept them up in Lightning Flat, "hidden" in the back corner of his boyhood closet. He keep them where all his other childhood dreams were stored, away from his "everyday" life with Lurleen and Bobby. It was like a fantasy life that he never realized, as one's childhood toys and dreams often represent.
jackster
I may be OT here, but I don't really think so. Forgive me if I am. But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such. They were friends. They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another. Granted, they acted out these feelings in very different ways.
However, I do NOT like the new forum banner for this exact reason. It does not stay true to Ennis and Jack's view of one another. (I'm not a fan of manips in any form, really, so that may be why I have reacted so strongly to this banner.) Jack would not have looked at Ennis as he is in this manip, in my opinion, and he was NOT Ennis's little darling like Alma was. I find this banner disturbing and untrue to their real relationship. As I said, this is just my opinion, but I felt I had to say it.
But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such. They were friends. They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another.
When Jack first spoted Ennis, he seemed to realize that this was someone who was like himself yet very different in many ways too. When he took a few steps torward Ennis as if he was gonna say something to Ennis, stared, then walked away back to his truck (then stuck that seductive pose against the truck), I felt he was interested in Ennis. Another telling example of Jack's * preference*My take on this first Jack/Ennis interaction has always been a bit different than most. Like you, I think they saw themselves as pretty much equals, but because of this I've always seen Jack's first reaction to Ennis as one of a competitor, "Shit! Another guy beat me here for this f**kin' job!" I feel he was pissed 'cause he didn't get there first and Ennis had "staked out" the territory by the door so as to be the first in line. How was he (or Ennis) to know there were two jobs? I can even see Jack thinkin' (while slouching against his truck) maybe he sould take off and try and find something else. To me their furtive glances were checking each other out primarily as job competitors and not so much as sex objects. 'Course they were horny teenagers so that's always in the hormonal mix. I think when Jack came out of the trailer and he knew they BOTH had jobs he was much relived, and even more excited to know he was going to be spending the summer with this hunk up on the mountain. Hence, let's go get drunk! Just MHO
Well, Jack did make it out of LF where Ennis never left WY. This is not doubt part of Ennis's problems remaining a closed person . It was only his sense of responsibility as a man after the prospect of getting married did he hitch a ride to Signal to find work to support himself and his wife. Jack, being on the rodeo curcuit for awhile saw the world differently due to apparent social interactions with many people, some no doubt from other surrounding areas and maybe other states too. I suppose this contributed to Jack's more open personality . In his travels he must have met many different people. Having a vehicle also gave him an advantage allowing him to travel. Fate intervening, they met seeking the job at Agurirre's trialor.When Jack first spooted Ennis, he seemed to realize that this was someone who was like himself yet very different in many ways too. When he took a few steps torward Ennis as if he was gonna say something to Ennis, stared, then walked away back to his truck( then stuck that seductive pose against the truck) , I felt he was interested in Ennis . Another telling example of Jack's * preference* But Ennis's body language told Jack that Ennis maybe was not.It was Jack's careful insight into Ennis's closed, shy manner that allowed him access into this *wounded* soul of Ennis gaining freindship and trust. I still wonder though how Ennis really saw Jack? Did he see Jack as *queer* in his mind ? Apparently he had some idea of what that meant evidenced by his statement after FNIT. And it was Jack who made the first physical move. He grew to love Jack deeply yet denied he was the same. It's complicated.
My take on this first Jack/Ennis interaction has always been a bit different than most. Like you, I think they saw themselves as pretty much equals, but because of this I've always seen Jack's first reaction to Ennis as one of a competitor, "Shit! Another guy beat me here for this f**kin' job!" I feel he was pissed 'cause he didn't get there first and Ennis had "staked out" the territory by the door so as to be the first in line. How was he (or Ennis) to know there were two jobs? I can even see Jack thinkin' (while slouching against his truck) maybe he sould take off and try and find something else. To me their furtive glances were checking each other out primarily as job competitors and not so much as sex objects. 'Course they were horny teenagers so that's always in the hormonal mix. I think when Jack came out of the trailer and he knew they BOTH had jobs he was much relived, and even more excited to know he was going to be spending the summer with this hunk up on the mountain. Hence, let's go get drunk! Just MHO
jackster
I had thought it similar to an awkward "courtship" . . . They sought to prove that each was worthy of the other.
tpe: I know I’m way off from what most people see here. But to me, if your 19, poor (in Ennis’s case dirt poor), and think yourself a heterosexual male I don’t think the first time you see another man outside the employment office where you’re going to get a job (probably the only job around) I don’t see that you're first thinkin’ “Man he’s hot, how can I get to know Him?”. Yeah, in the case of Jack, due to his “priors” he may have been thinking that somewhere along the line while waiting. But I don’t think it would have even occurred to Ennis, he’s to concerned with gettin’ a paying job so as to have something to eat and ‘course he’s thinking ‘bout Alma in November. IMHO what a lot of folks see as courtship at this early point I see as bravado and scoping out or bluffing the competition.
BUT, this quickly changes inside the trailer when they find out their gonna’ be companions NOT competitors. The glances inside the trailer begin to show that friendly “hmmm, check him out look”. That’s one of the things I love about BBM, it takes so many quick subtle turns like this, so many places where the story could have easily been entirely different except for fate. As soon as they knew they were gonna’ be mates then they started trying to prove they were worthy as you say with the stories in the bar and stuff.
jackster
I feel on Ennis's part it might have been both. He wanted and needed the job, but I continue to beleive Ennis's homosexual tendencies were as Webster's dictionary describes as *latent* , present, but not visualized or actualized . I beleive they were there. Along with competition for the job, I think that Ennis was struck by Jack's openess. He knew at a young age what "gay" was, unfortunatley it was shown to him as something negative and *bad* and therefore, buried this part of his sexuality, but when he saw Jack, I feel he saw himself attracted from the beginning. I think he recognized the reaction in some relation to what Earl and Ray must have felt, his only example known to him about the subject. He dared not let on to Jack that he was gay in any way or had feelings bureid inside for another man, but I think he sensed it when he saw Jack. Instead he allowed himself to be led through a process by Jack into a freindship, which grew into a trusted companionship and ultimatly a emotional and physical realization of those *latent* feelings.IMO.
I may be OT here, but I don't really think so. Forgive me if I am. But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such. They were friends. They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another. Granted, they acted out these feelings in very different ways.
However, I do NOT like the new forum banner for this exact reason. It does not stay true to Ennis and Jack's view of one another. (I'm not a fan of manips in any form, really, so that may be why I have reacted so strongly to this banner.) Jack would not have looked at Ennis as he is in this manip, in my opinion, and he was NOT Ennis's little darling like Alma was. I find this banner disturbing and untrue to their real relationship. As I said, this is just my opinion, but I felt I had to say it.
Here again, the difference between the SS and the film is critical to our interpretations of how much Ennis loved Jack and whether or not he admitted it to himself. . . . So, to flesh out Ennis (for me), I have to think of him as Annie wrote him . . . . Ennis would not have grieved as he did had he not loved Jack enormously . . . I find it hard to think that Jack could have completely left Ennis.
Here again, the difference between the SS and the film is critical to our interpretations of how much Ennis loved Jack and whether or not he admitted it to himself. In the SS, I think it is much clearer that Ennis did own up to having feelings for Jack ( motel scene), but the film leaves us high and dry on that point. So, to flesh out Ennis ( for me), I have to think of him as Annie wrote him. While Ennis did not act or react to love in the same way as Jack, he did love Jack and Jack knew it. It was Jack who, although he loved Ennis, did not find it too difficult to go with other men. Ennis would not have grieved as he did had he not loved Jack enormously. Could Ennis have ever completely cut himself off from Jack? I don't think so. So, I find it hard to think that Jack could have completely left Ennis. Just MHO.
Jack knew he loved Ennis but Ennis was never ready to admit it to himself until it was too late... IMO. :-\\
He loved Jack, Jack was the only person he really loved. You have to look at what happened in his life, the events in his life to see that Jack was it for him. Everything in Ennis's life centered around Jack. The very sad part is that he couldn't reconcile himself to it, until it was too late.
tpe:
All your comments below are right on the money IMHO. To me one of the things that makes this film so endearing is its ability to show these two men as "equals", but at the same time so very different from each other. This is what can (sometimes) make a deep, longlasting relationship work. And how we should often look at one another too, different but equal.
Because the two men are so different, all of us can relate to some degree with at least one of them, or parts of them. I think this is what elevates this story into literature. It is timeless and universal ( note the brokies from all over the world, of all ages).
I think the threads about which guy you prefer show us a lot about ourselves. While we love them both, one usually resonates more with us than the other. I'm sure that's because we see elements of ourselves or someone we love in the preferred man.
We KNOW who each of them preferred -- each other. They saw each other as their "other half". While Jack got mad at Ennis's stubborn refusal to meet him halfway, he still loved Ennis, and while Ennis hated that Jack went to Mexico ( and I'm sure he knew he went with other men often), he still loved Jack.
The element of time(20 years) in this *marriage* between Jack and Ennis is very telling in the way they felt about each other too. They experienced everything and anything any *normal* couple goes through. They met at 19 and grew into maturity together. The only factors missing was they did not live together while doing it. The fights, the love, the trials of love were all there though. If Ennis had committed to Jack in a permanent sense , this would have been complete as any married couple who have had 20 years together knows. They had the love, strong enough to sustain a long term marriage from both parts Ennis just could not get past childhood fears to make this thing work. That's the only problem. I think he wanted to, just did'nt know how.
Ennis just could not get past childhood fears to make this thing work. That's the only problem. I think he wanted to, just did'nt know how.
Certainly, they did not have the everyday routine that *married* couples do . as they were not living day to day together due to Ennis's problem committing to Jack in co-habitation, A house sharing sense . But they had the basics. A love in which to build on, wanted desperatly to be together A personal understanding of each other.. And a very itimate knowledge of each other sexually. An emotional bond was there. Those few months on Brokeback, where they did have a routine were part of their bonding process It proved that they were good together. Compatible to work together and accomplish something. With Jack's business sense and Ennis love of animals, (particlarly horses would have suited them just fine. ) Jack was willing to give his *normal* marriage up for Ennis and Ennis did survive Alma ,came to some personal terms with himself afterwards. They would not be able to do these things if the love was'nt deep on both parts. Deep enough to sustain a whole life together. Jack saw enough to ask Ennis to be a partner . Unfortunately Ennis did'nt know how to break free of his fears.I don't blame Ennis so much as I blame a closed minded society. Fools who can't just live and let live. Then and now.
“No more BEANS!” Is this is the first indication of the partnership? A simple request and subsequent compliance between two individuals that begins to show the building of a relationship. This and the later partnership examples up on Brokeback was enough to make each of them believe it could work between them on a deeper level. They saw in each other a partner in the broad sense of the word before the love grabbed at them. It seems Ennis just couldn’t take it much beyond that in his head “Two men livin’ together, no way”.
“No more BEANS!” Is this is the first indication of the partnership? A simple request and subsequent compliance between two individuals that begins to show the building of a relationship. This and the later partnership examples up on Brokeback was enough to make each of them believe it could work between them on a deeper level. They saw in each other a partner in the broad sense of the word before the love grabbed at them. It seems Ennis just couldn’t take it much beyond that in his head “Two men livin’ together, no way”.
My question is: What happened to their relationship between coming down off the mountain and the reunion?
I tend to agree with you, aintfoolin. Ennis's reaction when he saw Jack went WAAAAY beyond Jack's fondest hopes. He now knew that what HE was feeling was being reciprocated. Eventhough Ennis never says "I Love You", he does inimate it from time to time, and acts on it, also.
What Happened? Great Question . . . . . To paraphrase Ennis:
"I come across a broken heart is whut happen’d."
Jack was drivin’ grooves across Texas, foolin’ around a bit here an’ there an’ bein’ his happy go lucky self, an’ gettin’ married. We get no indication (in the SS or film) that he gave a second thought to Ennis until the PC four years later. He may have thought about Ennis, but it’s not spelled out anywhere. I think he's written Ennis off as a lost cause and was totally taken by the ferocity of the reunion.
I like doin’ it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin’ it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin’ about you.
Ennis, on the other hand got married, yeah, but never let the idea of Jack slip from his head, like you said he was crazy about him. And knew he shouldn't a let him outta' his sights. He knew what he wanted and who he liked, and man, did it ever show up when they met again after four years. I don’t think he ever strayed much from that simple conclusion. Jack for all his later love and devotion to Ennis, never let that stop his eye from roving around here and there. Ennis never considered another man (or woman) from what we’re led to believe. He was as faithful as a dog, if limited in his scope. And like a dying dog who can't figure out how to turn on a simple faucet to get a drink, Ennis can't figure out how to make a life with Jack.
Again the beauty of AP’s writing shines here – Whatda’ ya want – An eager, hell bent Jack ready for anything, even a little action on the side, or, A steady, faithful Ennis, unwilling to go out on a limb, but never straying from his true love. What a great, if impossible choice! Of course you want both – but you can’t have it!
jackster
He knew what he wanted, but was too passive to act directly on how he felt.
Jack was drivin’ grooves across Texas, foolin’ around a bit here an’ there an’ bein’ his happy go lucky self, an’ gettin’ married. We get no indication (in the SS or film) that he gave a second thought to Ennis until the PC four years later. He may have thought about Ennis, but it’s not spelled out anywhere. I think he's written Ennis off as a lost cause and was totally taken by the ferocity of the reunion.
jackster
I agree with all you say here except Ennis being too passive. Based on the simple SS quote that "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spendin" I have to assume that it wasn't that he was was too passive, he just didn't (couldn't) see it. It was beyond his comprehension that two men could live together succesfully. Like Earl 'n Rich, they'd be dead, period. He wasn't able to get beyond that. IMHO if Ennis had been able to see this life as a plusible one, he'd a done it - the hell with everybody else. I think his early experience was that it wouldn't work no matter whut.
jackster
No disrespect intended, jackster, but I think there is evidence that Jack thought about Ennis before the reunion. He went back to Aquirre's trailor the following summer looking for work and asked if Ennis had been there.
I agree with all you say here except Ennis being too passive. Based on the simple SS quote that "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spendin" I have to assume that it wasn't that he was was too passive, he just didn't (couldn't) see it. It was beyond his comprehension that two men could live together succesfully. Like Earl 'n Rich, they'd be dead, period. He wasn't able to get beyond that. IMHO if Ennis had been able to see this life as a plausible one, he'd a done it - the hell with everybody else. I think his early experience was that it wouldn't work no matter whut.
jackster
Your absolutely right lamusica, I forgot all about that question in the trailer, he was still dreaming about him. Thanks for setting me straight here. O0
I wonder why he didn't go lookin' for Ennis then instead of lighting out for Texas? Was he threatened by Aguirre's comment and that maybe other folks around knew about him from last summer? Did it take three more years for that fear to recede? Just wondering.
jackster
Sometimes it takes some time to realize what you're really missing in life. In this case, they were both missing the same thing -- each other.
I think that Manhattan Girl makes a good point here. It was hard for him to find his place in Lureen's family, and he needed Ennis. He had had enough of people who didn't respect him, so went looking for the one man who did. To me, that answers the question about why, after four years, Jack finally got active. Ennis, on the other hand, was prime for the picking. He was just going through the motions ( husband, father, hard-worker), so he was ready when Jack came looking for him. Sometimes it takes some time to realize what you're really missing in life. In this case, they were both missing the same thing -- each other.
Very well said lamusica.
jackster
This is true. They were missing each other and were in each other's thoughts during the 4 year separation. In the motel scene Ennis explained that he thought the "Army had got him" and / or that Jack was still pissed off about the punch. Ennis never thought he'd see Jack again. Maybe even thought he'd been killed in the war.
In any case he was resigned to making a living and taking care of his family. It's obvious that he still preferred Jack over the life he had. The SS alludes to this. should never have let Jack out of his sight. He still could not get his head around the fact that Jack loved him without conditions, it was too good to be true. To him there were consecquences to be paid for loving him back since he was taught against the very thing that he desired as a grown man. If he allowed himself to freely love Jack, bad things were gonna happen to them....But..Even his wife or the birth of 2 dearly loved daugters could not extinguish this fire inside. Brokeback did "get them good" as Jack acknowledged. Jack was his "lil dariln" as the SS said, putting Jack in the category with the most beloved and precious loves of his life: his girls and his horses. The use of this endearment is telling in the way Ennis felt about Jack. Jack had to know Ennis loved him but had conflicts inside himself.
Both had tears in their eyes at that final meeting, both acknowledge the pain the other was going through, but felt they couldn't do anything about it. that's the amazingly crazy aspect of it.
Again, having read the SS yesterday ( for the ????? time), Annie's lines that "nothing changed" after Jack and Ennis fought in the final scene has convinced me that both men were going to continue their very unsatisfactory relationship with little or no change. That doesn't mean they hadn't become more aware of the pain they have caused one another, but maybe that's just part of living and loving, too. No one comes up to their lover's expectations 100%. There's got to be some compromising going on or the relationship couldn't last 20 years. Just MHO, but I think this, too, points to Jack and Ennis recognizing their complementary relationship to one another. They are two parts of a whole, eventhough they may be with other people from time to time and live very separate lives most of the time.
Just MHO, but I think this, too, points to Jack and Ennis recognizing their complementary relationship to one another. They are two parts of a whole.Much agreed here lamusica and well said.
Much agreed here lamusica and well said.
IMHO one of Annie’s inspirations is the complex balance she creates in the SS. So much of modern American life is focused on finding whose at fault when things go wrong or don’t work out. I think she shows rather beautifully that sometimes things just go wrong and it can’t be blamed on any person or event. Especially when it involves complicated constructs like people’s lives and loves. These two guys were pretty good for each other given a time and a place when the choices were pretty limited, and they both did achieve a bit of painful self-realization of who they were.
One difference I have in interpreting her simple phrases “Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” and “they torqued things almost to where they had been” – to me this indicates a slight movement (the direction isn’t specified) but some movement. These are kind of contradictory, but I’m optimistic enough to think of it as an advancement in understanding their relationship if not a sea-change. Ennis’s “heart shot” (in the film his admittance that he couldn’t stand it any longer) is, IMHO a sign of progress.
These are both excellent posts jackster and tpe . very insightful! Indeed their love was mirrored in each other. Jack loved Ennis . Ennis loved Jack. This is the undisputed fact of the matter, but I think there is one thing they did'nt realize and that is love is never a cut and dried thing. In love there is a series of comprimises when an impass emerges.. Ennis could not see that a a little give and take in a relationship is essential to it's well being.He does not respond well to forced emotional matters. The things Jack said in that last meeting had to be said wether Ennis liked it or not. Jack could no longer "stand it" and neither could Ennis. The time had come to start "fixing it" With a love this strong, there is no "standing " anything other than coming to some sort of comprimise and a coming to terms with this "thing" as Ennis puts it. Jack had comprimised for 20 years, going along with what Ennis needed . Communication was lacking due to both their fears. Ive often thought that if perhaps Jack would have *backed off* and let Ennis come to him on his own, just like he did in SNIT, it would have been on his own terms after he has analyzed the whole thing as he often does. After the reunion scene, there was no doubt how Ennis felt about Jack. The love was there and it would not be easy for Ennis loose Jack again judging from the way he welcomed Jack back into his life and what he said about never letting him out of his sight. I think Jack should have tested Ennis's love for him by letting Ennis *stew* or chill out for a while. In time, either way the peices fell , Jack would have gotten an answer to his complicated dilemma. Jack could not change Ennis That is something Ennis had to do on his own. He did it once, maybe he'll do it again.
Well said, jackster and tpe.
Aintfoolin, you hit the nail on the head. If only Jack had waited for Ennis to make a move in the later years. What would have happened? Would ENnis have finally jumped in his pickup and headed for Texas? Would he have just felt rejected by Jack and not tried to make contact. This is an intriguing dilemna to consider.
Perhaps Ennis felt pressured into making a life-altering change in his way of life. A totally different lifestyle that he both feared and felt ashamed of within himself. Maybe this explains his need to be separated from Jack especially after the reunion, and then the divorce incident. He knew what Jack wanted and Jack probably brought up his plans for him and Ennis putting Ennis in a constant state of anxiety every time they met. Perhaps Jack should,ve backed off a little, let Ennis come to him. But on the other hand , 20 years is a long time. The man is stubborn and set in his ways . Change did not sit very well with him and Jack was being very patient with him, until the last time. This was IMO the ultimate pressure ,reality contained in Jack's words that rained down on him. He knew Jack was right all along, but now he knows that Jack has been unfaithful due to his own refusal to face facts and change his ways since the reunion and Jack had called him on it. Jack was finding other outlets for sexual gratification other than him. I think he saw Jack slipping away from him and this scared the crap out of him. Jack forced Ennis to take a good, hard look at the situation he kept him in. He had to feel caged in.( A short leash) , needing Ennis in every sense of the word, yet Ennis was making Jack wait and wait / and or do it his way or he would become violent over * all them things he did'nt know* , but Jack did not fear the threat like Ennis thought he would. He was a man with needs in his own right. Jack was no longer going to put up with the status quo and he forced Ennis to see that , and that he was going to find what he needed with or without him. Jack finally had the upper hand and called Ennis's bluff. Ennis got the upper hand right back by telling Jack to "let him be" or did he? Jack did'nt know how to " quit* Ennis right then because he loved him so deeply ,but he was on his way to finding out how ... Randall was already in the mix. in my opinion.
It seems that a lot of discussion recently is focused on Jack's really wanting this relationship to work and Ennis's unwillingness to go along. To me that's part of the story, but Jack didn't show much creativity here either IMHO. If Lureen's ol' man was willing to pay him off to get lost, why didn't he? Take the money Jack n' head north to Wyomin', set up shop outside Riverton somewheres and be closer to Ennis. At least make gettin' together easier, even if it still was "way the hell out in the middle a' nowhere". Maybe try and work something out nearby, he had the ability to do it (so we're lead to believe). Poor Ennis had to quit his jobs sometimes just to get time off and see Jack, he started with nuthin' (and ended with nuthin'), at least Jack had two parents with a ranch even if it wasn't much. It seems Jack had a lot more options than Ennis but he didn't really utilize 'em much, except the ability to get away and drive north. Yeah, Ennis said "two guys livin' together - no way" but shoot, he didn't say you had ta' be 1200 miles away. Even 50 or 100 miles woulda' worked on weekends and holidays. Ennis was obstinate, but when the spirit moved him he went with flow pretty damn well - FNIT, SNIT, Reunion, Jack had to know this and appreciate it.
Jack moving closer I feel would only aggravate Ennis's dread further don't you think?
This connects with my post about Ennis wanting it to be this way:
Had Jack moved closer to Ennis, it is still no gaurantee that Ennis would move in with him. Yes,jackster , he would be closer to Ennis but Ennis was paranoid in Riverton that people knew everything. Jack moving closer I feel would only aggravate Ennis's dread further don't you think? The distance and isolation worked for Ennis though he missed Jack somethin awful, but the status quo was within Ennis's comfort zone, enough that Ennis could still function. He could'nt have Jack showing up on his job etc. out of the blue requiring him to expain the relationship. Eventually in Ennis's paranoia, some one would be on to the whole arrangement and he'd have to explain Jack. With Jack's state of mind at this point he'd get careless and give the whole thing away. He no longer wanted to hide who he was. Ennis did.
I guess we're jus' gonna see it different. I don't see that Ennis "wanted" it this way, I just don't think Ennis understood any other way, "I don't wanna' be dead". - I think with a bit more illustration from Jack as to how this could work, and turn out better than Earl n' Rich, Ennis might have bought into it. Jack was workin' against a big pile of Ennis's childhood memories (hangups we'd call 'em) and a very vivid demonstration of how it would likely turn out. I'm just sayin' I don't think Jack used all the tools available to him to turn Ennis around.
I'm not saying I would do something like this, but I know some people who play dirty in relationships and who would have forced Ennis's hand. Jack could have just conveniently forgotten one of the mountain meetings with Ennis. What would Ennis have done? If Ennis really thought Jack could forget him or ignore him, what would his next step have been? I think Ennis always thought Jack would be there on Ennis's terms, so why change? There was no reason to change if you can get what you want without changing.
I agree with this. Jack did not use all the weapons in his ar**nal to convince Ennis to see it his way . This last post is one example. Perhaps Jack should have not shown up just to *test* Ennis , to see what response he he'd get from Ennis. The question is : could Jack do this though,? or would his fear of loosing Ennis weigh so heavily on him that he just could'nt stay away or not have the communication with him? I think this may have worked, as Ennis did call Jack's house after his death. he apparently had Jack's home phone no. I think He'd have called at least to find out if Jack was safe. Since a pattern had been established with Jack, then not showing up would fill Ennis with a sense of fear. He'd call first, and this would be the time for Jack to explain to Ennis that he was not going to play this game anymore. Was not going to drive one more mile to meet him , only to be rejected . I think one of two things would result from this. 1. Ennis would totally withdraw, or he'd give in to Jack. Either way Jack could move on with his life....with Ennis or with Randall. Sadly we'll never know. He deserved so much better than the status quo.
I think it's true that too some degree familiarity had bred if not contempt then at least a false sense of security. Each of them saw the other as a permanent part of their life and relied without much thought on the other turning up for their regular, if infrequent, meetings, the trouble was that Jack saw those as a prelude to something better and didn;t see ennis as not looking at the situation in the same way. I don't think he reallly saw quite how deep Ennis's fears went, possibly because Ennis gives the impression of being in control of himself and the situation, right up until the last scene. Equally I don;t think Ennis saw Jack as so desperately needing him as Jack evidently did - or at least he wanted to see Jack as accepting the status quo because for Ennis that was all that was possible.
Certainly right.tpe. This confrontation should have happened aways back say shortly after the reunion scene. When Ennis told Jack "aint no reins on this one" I think this is when Ennis knew he was in love with Jack . At this point Jack should have gotten a little firmer about Ennis's intentions toward him and the relationship. Confront Ennis about what they both knew was true. Call this damn bluff, this wall Ennis hid behind. L Explain to him that they were not Earl and Ray ,Laid it all out then, what he expected, what he could deal with and what he would'nt deal with. They WERE the perfect match for each other and they both knew and in Ennis's case , he might take flight for awhile , but I beleive he would return back home to Jack;s sheltering arms where he knows he belongs. Ennis was vulnerable to this at that time. Ennis had already acknowledged that Alma was not his best, first choice, Jack was. This pattern of meeting out in the woods, away from society had not been established yet. Perhaps Jack should have let Ennis know he was worth more than that. Could have been financially set if he chose to too. Jack had the options other than waiting 20 years for Ennis to wake up and take a wiff of the roses while all along stuck in a marriage to Lureen that had reached "do it over the phone" level. I'm sure they enjoyed the time they had together though those years, but for Jack it had to be like living an unfulfilled deam of a lifetime.Too much left unsaid, to much left undone. :( :c)
That was the one time I thought Jack should have punched Ennis. I think I would have. He was really being a little s**t towards Jack that day at the river's edge.
I really think about how it could have been had Jack been more confrontational. Perhaps he would have succeeded in making Ennis see it his way: take the risk for the sake of happiness in love. But it was not meant to be. As perfect they were for each other, they were perhaps too well matched. If things were put at an imbalance early on, perhaps they would have seen the beauty of what they had between the two of them.
That was the one time I thought Jack should have punched Ennis. I think I would have. He was really being a little s**t towards Jack that day at the river's edge.
I believe so too tpe. Though maybe not “confrontational” but mutually supportive is maybe the phrase I would use. Like in the scene after the divorce, to drive all the way there and then just turn around and leave. Huh? Why not say, “OK I’ll wait in Lander (far enough away to not raise suspicions) and come back Tuesday when the girls are back at Alma’s”. Or something else, anything that would be a benefit to both of ‘em.
This scene shows me that these two guys were really very much alike in some respects, Jack’s just sayin’ “Alright, I’ll see you next month” and taking off in a huff with a broken heart, and Ennis shuffling around and not being able to offer one word of encouragement to a guy who just spent 15 hrs drivin’ to see you. I wanted to say, come on guys, work it out; it’s not brain surgery here. After going to all this effort you’d think between 'em they’d be able to come up with a plan, but neither seemed capable of a creative thought! Like two rams butting heads sometimes. IMHO.
jackster
IMHO:
It wasn't until the confrontation, and Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you." that's the dam in Ennis that broke. We've seen time and time what was going with between the two, Jack's trying over the years to convince Ennis to build a life with him, Jack said it perfectly that final day, he found his voice and if Ennis would kill him or quit him was chance Jack took. And what provoke this whole thing, Jack felt Ennis was pushing further away.
What was real motive for Ennis doing this, after a night of sefl-confession, intimate moment between them, older men now, supposedly secure in their love for one another, why in heck did Ennis think he could jerk Jack around one more time. It's like saying to Jack, "What's going in my life, will always be paramount to your needs." Using the same premise he uses years earlier after the reunion, there is something greater than you. Come on, Ennis did it because Ennis felt he could do it. Of all people to one who loyal and loving.
Losing Alma, his indifference towards Cassie will never impact him as much as losing Jack, but Jack was suppose to understand when Ennis makes a demand thats it, and what Jack's feeling, what Jack need, and his wishes have to be defferred because Ennis needs out weighs Jack.
Ennis need for control was slipping, when he realized that Jack was thinking, wishing there was a way he could get away from him. Why do you think he wrote him, to find out he was still coming in November? Just the idea of Jack not coming must have crossed his mind. We all know fate took care of that.
It was always fear with Ennis I'll give you that, but its also control. When you have fears you must have control.
Fear comes from not being sure of anything. It's only natural to try to grasp something real to hang onto. Anorexics reject food to prove they have power over their hunger urges. Gamblers gamble to attempt to prove they have control over their money and their desire for risk-taking. So, Ennis pushes Jack's buttons to prove he has some sort of control over him. This may be what's at the root of Ennis's issues. I hadn't thought of it that way before your post, manhattangirl, but it does make a sort of twisted sense, especially in someone like Ennis who really doesn't know himself very well. I don't think he sits around self-analyzing.
Very good points. :)
Just a quick comment on some of the references made to who had the power, or control, in this relationship. It is usually percieved that Ennis did, and in many ways I would agree. But I have been in a relationship where both parties thought the other had the power. And when you believe you don't have that power, then to a certain extent it's true. It was in Ennis's power to grant what Jack wanted/needed, Jack couldn't make him do it. But Ennis was a prisoner of his own perceptions and therefore not just unwilling but unable to make those things happen. Because he genuinely believed that he had no power or control at all.
As to what each thought of the other in regard to power in the relationship, Jack probably had a better sense of what he was up against (namely Ennis's fears and confusion). Ennis, I think, didn't feel that he was up against Jack in a power struggle, so much as he was up against the whole universe.
Ennis was trapped in a room that was only locked in his mind. But even though the door was unlocked all the time, as long as he believed it was locked, he would never be able to open it.
Ennis was trapped in a room that was only locked in his mind. But even though the door was unlocked all the time, as long as he believed it was locked, he would never be able to open it.
That "I'm not you" remark says a lot about how they haven't, in Jack's opinion, grown together. Though they may have grown
old(er), they've grown old(er) separately. Now Jack is pointing out, if he hasn't seen it before, which I think he must have done, that they aren't one and the same, as lovers often claim to be, not two halves of one whole but two separate and different people.Ennis never sees, or thinks, either, that Rich and Earl may have had many years together, and might have been glad they'd had them despite how it all ended. Ironically Jack and Ennis ended up in exactly the same way, but without having had the years together.
And remember, Jack had worked the mountain before that previous summer so he probably felt he had the advantage although Aquirre chided him about the dead sheep. I think Jack was taken by suprise to see this gourgeous guy standin there. This was his competition for the job I agree but do you think that Jack would just let Ennis walk away ,never getting to know who this guy was if Ennis got the job over him? I don't think so. Luckily there were 2 jobs to Jack's delight I'm sure.
Then I guess it is fair to say that (in many ways) Ennis viewed himself and Jack through the lense of this society, and Jack sought to view their relationship outside of it...
This a great post MG and I totally agree. The "absence makes the heart grow fonder" is fine....for a while. After enough years have past one tends to tire of postcards, letters, and phone calls. I've personally lived this existence and that's all it really is ...an existence, not really living. Nothing replaced real time with Ennis for Jack. He wanted more time with the one he loved. Just time. to touch, and feel and visiualize Ennis . I cannot imagine Jack's half life for 20 years. that's a long, long time to wait for some one to come around. His cheating in this case is now understandable with all the temptation he must've experienced. He rode" more than bulls* during the separations but not because he wanted to, but because he had no other choice. Ennis was'nt taking care of business where he should have. By not agreeing to make time with Jack, he is part responsible for Jack's infidelities. There's no way around it. He left Jack dangerously vulnerable sexually as well as mentally, emotionally and open to physical bodily harm. Had he been with Jack, he might have kept Jack from the attack of the tire irons. ( If that's what really happened,I'm not sure), but in any case Ennis had it backwards .Being WITH Jack made them safer, not separation. MHO
Perhaps Ennis needed to realize that this love had become a part of him. He was running from himself in actuality. I think he saw himself loosing a certain control of himself, saw Jack as a threat to that control. He is one who has always been able to control every aspect of his emotional being. Every time he came near Jack physically , he saw what he loved and despised at the same time. He needed to just let go and allow these two aspects of himself to blend , the good and the bad to come together so that he could feel whole. He did'nt have to loose himself for there are more than one side to everybody. Stop trying to control where the peices fell and just go where ever the love led him and still remain just Ennis . Jack could have worked with that I beleive. It's that ol' *force of nature" tugging at him .There had to be that little voice is his head had to tell him that there was a void without Jack in his life. He only got and gave peices ,or little tastes of freedom when he and Jack went on these trips into the mountains. IMO there was 3 entities in this relationship Jack, Ennis and the consuming fear. It was Jack's competition for Ennis's soul as if it had a life of it's own. A competitor more powerful than Alma, jobs, etc. ever was ,yet on an equal plane in it's battle with Jack's love for Ennis. The real enemy in this thing . Jack saw it, fought against it, gave his best shot against it for 20 years. Ennis in a way fought to keep it safely wrapped up in his sense of right and wrong. Guilt towards his God givin right to love. This is the thing that kept Jack from breaking completely through the wall and reaching Ennis the way he wanted to. In the last confrontation Jack finally called it out, forcing Ennis to break down in an emotional, realistic way exorcising this fear to the surface . Jack was saying * you and you alone hold the key to both our happiness , so get over yourself and get on with it, This forced responsibility onto Ennis and showed that he was'nt just a passive participant in the affair, but in fact it was he himself who held all the cards. Jack's " your too much for me Ennis" showing his frustration at how something so clearly defined to him was so hard for the one he loved and wanted so much to see. Ennis himself was saying he could no longer stand what he had forced Jack to do. Stand it. Control totally lost , his own philosophy toward life came home to roost. ( You gotta stand it Jack) When Jack saw it, he saw Ennis's vulnerabilities exposed and Jack's nurturing, comforting embrace as he broke down showed a deep unconditional love for Ennis. My humble opinion.
Yep. Ennis felt he had to follow the rules. Jack was always into making up new ones.
kathy
These are such excellent posts. I feel an even deeper understanding of Ennis and Jack and wht transpired between them.
You know what occurs to me, reading all of these posts? That all of you people are very healthy psychologically and emotionally, and should have the most healthy of relationships. Or else we have learned valuable lessons from Ennis and Jack that will serve us well in all our future things with people -- friendship or love. Most of all, of course, to understand what we ourselves are doing, how we are living in our worlds.
kathy
Did Jack view Ennis as more of a conformist? LIkewise, did Ennis think Jack was too much of a rebel?
Did Jack view Ennis as more of a conformist? LIkewise, did Ennis think Jack was too much of a rebel?
I sometimes think Jack is a rebel, but now I am leaning more toward thinking of him as naive. I don't think he really thinks he falls under the rules. He seems to have none of the fear Ennis has about being openly gay, or living with another guy. But I don't think he wants to do that simply to fly in the face of tradition or to break the rules. I think he just doesn't realize or doesn't believe that anything will happen to him. Then the great irony to that is that that is EXACTLy how and why he is killed. This is just so sad, but I have known people who do not understand their place in the world, and I think Jack might be one of them. He's not like that through any wrong-doing -- he's just not aware, even though Ennis tries to get him to understand the precariousness of their situation should "this thing" flare up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I think that Ennis was charmed by Jack's outgoing nature. Ennis was a very deprived child, Mom and Dad dead when he was 14; lived with his older brother (17) and sister (no age given) with no stated outside support for these three orphans. They didn't have a lot of money, he didn't have a whole lot of fun, and given the remoteness of the ranches where he lived, you know there wasn't a lot of hanging together with anyone after school. He had to drive an hour to get there! Ennis hadn't met that many people in his life (due to his remote location - a small town on the edge of the least populated state, which is still some huge acreage) and he certainly had never met anybody as funny, creative and talkative as Jack. Jack, OTOH, looked at Ennis as the big butch can-do guy: Kill an elk, take over the "herder's" job for him, make decisions like sticking through separating the sheep, etc. Jack, fun; Ennis the anchor. (Not for nothing there's an anchor lamp on the wall over Jack's bed.) IMHO.
I find it interesting to wqtch Jack's face the first time he tells Ennis they should live together and is refused and then when they are in bed in the motel and, again, Ennis refuses. Then -- in their last scene together, when Jack says "We could have had it all". There seem to be subtle changes. The first time, Jack is hurt, it seems to me. The second time, he is plain old frustrated, and the last time he is madder than hell. He has evolved in some ways. He still has the same answer to their dilemna, but reacts differently when Ennis puts the damper on his ideas.
So let see what are they? we're married, Rich and Earl, Let's convince Alma you and Lureen adopt the girls, child support, how many was that? Did I forget any? And if Jack would have lived, we'd still be counting. Who could blame Jack for getting angry.
And if you're in love you can't help yourself, even when you see the other person involved not as you once did but as flawed and unreasonable. Both of them kept coming back, because they had something together that neither had alone, but in the end the excuses and the pressure became too much to stand. In that last scene they were more honest about their own needs and wants, and their reaction to the other, than they had been before, and as a result saw ach other differently after years of re-enacting, or trying to, that first summer in an attempt to do what shakespeare said you couldnt - call back yesterday.
And in the film, the "dozy embrace", speaks directly to what WW, was speaking of, the reaching back for something, but never verbalized, as Jack watched Ennis drive off for the last time.
Jack was indeed "reaching back " into tje past to try and recapture a mood, a feeling that once was. And what a remembrance it was for him. It is a tradgedy that this Ennis in the dozy embrace is the one Jack knows is capable of being at *peace *with himself and what was going on at that moment between them. It was a sweet moment in contrast with the reality of the Ennis in that last meeting. There was still possibilties and an innocent hope during that time, as we can clearly see the love displayed openly in both their eyes. So close but yet so far. Jack had always feared loosing Ennis if he demanded anything, due to a low startle point. Ennis's reaction to this confrontation must have confirmed this fact for Jack as Ennis drove away.Apparently though despite Mexico,"all them things he did'nt know " and "the rest" of Jack's secrets did'nt stop Ennis from wanting to meet Jack again at Pine Creek, He loved him and was'nt ready to let Jack go yet evidenced by the postcard he sent asking to meet him again . By then it was too late.... I just hate that Jack had to die when he did because personally I think Ennis was gonna make a big decision to agree to live with Jack. Jack was'nt gonna keep up the status quo and Ennis obviously could'nt live without him.
It may also be true that Ennis had always been the strong silent one, only when he broke down in front of Jack did Jack fully realise the toll the relationship was taking on Ennis as well as on himself.
But nevertheless Ennis drove away.
It didn't have to be that way. IMO.
I suspect that Jack understood the deeper fears behind all of Ennis's "excuses" over the years. Not that Ennis's reasons were invalid -- they were probably quite realistic. But Jack did seem to see through them and understood that in the end, Ennis was capable of overriding them IF ONLY he were to conquer his own fears.
I think this was what kept Jack going, in spite of all the frustration...
This was a case where Jack's understanding of Ennis only caused him greater suffering.
I could well be wrong, but it seems to me that Ennis denies Jack only one thing in their entire time together, and that's them living together. Who could blame him? He know what happens to two men who "ranch up" together - one of them gets killed by his neighbors, from out of the blue. And that's not just killed, but sadistically tortured, pulled around from the back of a pickup truck by his "maleness" until it's pulled off! And this had to have been done by his churchgoing, otherwise normal, friendly neighbors, and he thinks his Dad was in on it! That's horrifying to me, and I'm way beyond 9 years old. I wonder if Earl was still alive when his nose came off his face? That would put a crimp in any man's plans to live with the man he loves. I think he denied Jack what Jack wanted most because he could see no way to live together and keep them both alive and whole. IMO he didn't live with Jack the better to protect him.
its obvious that jack loved ennis, and i think ennis loved jack just as much maybe more. jack was in more danger without ennis, because he went looking for what he needed. if they had been together jack wouldn't have had to go look for it somewhere else, and they could have protected each other. i think that if ennis dad hadnt done what he did then maybe things would have been different, i think they should have been together because they deserved happiness and besides if something did happen to one of them at least there wouldn't be any regrets they would have had that sweet life.
"Tis better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all. " I beleive this and I agree that they were much more safer together. Jack's death, I believe was a result of being out there alone and not with Ennis living his dream. Had Ennis been with Jack, he would not have stood by and let this awful death occur like it did. I doubt that Ennis would have allowed Jack to end up out in the middle of nowhere with 3 or 4 huge guys after what he'd seen as a child. I really would hope that this was one (if the main regret) that Ennis had. That he could've been there to save him. Jack's love for Ennis was teaching Ennis that first understanding the obstacles and problems they had. It is a long process working through them all, in this case but I find it ironic that even after his knowledge of Jack's Mexico daliances, Ennis still sent the postcard, wanting to meet Jack again at Pine Creek. Surely he knew after what Jack had said at that last meeting would make the status quo obsolete. Personally, I think Ennis was gonna cave in ( with some conditions of course) but acceptable to Jack. Perhaps Ennis realized that at least these " tough old birds" as he puts it , had what seems to be a long life together before Earl was murderd. there is a remedy for homophobes kicking their door down in the middle of the night. It's called a shotgun. Everyone has the God givin right to defend themselves against bodily harm. Ray and Earl were older than these two, and most likely got caught off guard. I think Ennis was still just a work in progress, but he was learning. As far as I'm concerned Ennis showed his true colors in the reunion scene. He had been there, done that ,as far as his realization of not having Jack around with him. He knows how much he missed him and wanted him. I don't believe Ennis would've made the same mistake twice. He just could'nt stand the status quo anymore. Neither coud Jack. My thoughts.
But this is the common trap many of us still fall into, no? Out of fear, we resign ourself to living half-lives.
There are worse things than death. The fate of Earl and Rich is indeed fearful, but perhaps we, like Ennis, forget that they at least were able to live life as they wanted to. Perhaps they were better off than Ennis and Jack. Both Earl and Rich and Ennis and Jack had similar fates in the end (i.e., the cruel death of one and the bleak loneliness of the other), but I would think that at least Earl and Rich got to live a life of love.
Perhaps so, but remember Ennis was only 9 when his Dad took him to get a good look at a human being who was tortured and then left, dead or dying, outside on the ground like garbage, and this was someone known to little Ennis, a local farmer he'd at least seen in town. He knew Earl well enough to recognize him and know his name. That's a trauma that will definitely shut down some on-ramps to the freeway of life for you, even as an adult.
From what I saw of the movie (so many times I have no idea how many), they had lots of love to share most of the time they were together. Jack just didn't want to be with Ennis for just a few weeks a year. They could have moved, except for Ennis's kids - he didn't want to leave them. (Even though he stopped seeing them regularly after Thanksgiving, he knew they'd come around, or at least that's what we're told he thinks.)
Both being raised in such a homophobic society, they couldn't help being homophobic themselves, and as such didn't even have the words to discuss their own situation with one another.
Ennis was not a thinking man and never became one during the course of the movie. I agree that, to Ennis, thinking was wasting time. . . . Not once in the ss or the movie does Ennis ever mention what COULD HAVE BEEN.
But, do you think he really was going to change in some way -- follow some sort of dream into the future?
You know, I absolutely understand what you're saying, except for one major thing: I don't think that Ennis had any choice in the matter. I mean, I sincerely doubt he sat down, ever, and said is there a way we could be better off? That trauma was so severe that it actually limited the growth of his personality, to the extent that he didn't like "thinking," or at least what he meant by "thinking" - "You're a real 'thinker,' Jack Twist," is said as if it were an accusation. The real trauma of this horror deprived him, in many ways, from developing past certain ideas he held as a 9 yr old.
If you doubt this, the next time you watch, listen carefully to his conversation with Cassie in the bus terminal. He has made up his mind by this point, in fact made it up the night before the fight, that he was going to dump her. Just look at the expression on his face that night as he looks at Jack - he has openly got it for Jack from that moment on, and Jack doesn't get it! (Remember, these guys started out each agreeing that "I ain't queer." That's the 'contract' that let them continue to have sex on the Mountain, and they believed each other's lie, and it's that lie that stays in their way for 20 years.)
"Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," is a revelation to Ennis and the death knell for any further doings with Cassie, and this is why he is such a mess, poking around those poor little apples from his pie: he has already come to grips with his and Jack's reality and is anxious about seeing Jack again {the postcard has been sent} before Cassie comes into the terminal. This is the reason he hasn't been contacting her the way she wanted - "You must a got all them notes...,"and the reason he looks so anguished and confused - he really isn't sure how Jack will take this revelation. But his answers to her pain are not the answers of an understanding adult, or even of a weaselly adult, but just imagine a kid saying them - they fit a kid's way of responding to a scolding. Even when he tries to take some of the blame for her pain, "I probably wasn't much fun anyway, was I?" it's a kid's answer, and is also why he is so totally floored when she says, "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun." This is the first moment in his life when he finally understands that love isn't just the fun that he has with Jack, it's his pain,and it's Jack's pain, and the knowledge that Jack still tries to comfort him in his pain, too. You can practically see him understanding this, looking into the future where he can tell Jack he loves him. This is why Cassie is actually so vitally important in the film - she is the first (and only) person in his life who gives him any clue as to what love is. This is also why I doubled up with that gut punch of "deceased" in the very next scene - Ennis finally knows, but doesn't get the chance to say. :\'(
Yeah, I guess I do. I see the "shrine" (or memorial) of shirts and postcard he erected in his closet as the indicator of this. People all over the world build shrines generally in recognition of something larger than themselves. An idea or supernatural spirit that moves them or guides them. They are most frequently just small and personal. For Ennis to erect this simple, but totally non-utilitarian, construct, is to me evidence he's started on his own journey of self-discovery.
No, it's not going to be earthshaking, he's not moving to Denver or some other major shift in his material life, but I do think he's made a shift in his spiritual life. This is what Jack showed him and left with him."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."
Jack speaks to him about the past and, I believe, the future in guiding him and his decisions. He's still Ennis, and will always be Ennis, living what many of us would see as a bleak life, but he's not the same, he sees the world through new eyes. I feel one of the reasons we see Ennis cry so many times is to show his inner self struggling to get out of his hard shell. It's there, he just won't let it show itself. In this shrine he lets it out, it's still in his closet, but it's out from inside him now and he can begin to grow.There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe.
He's trying.
Interesting thought, zephK. Personally, I had thought that Ennis already had some idea before the confrontation scene with Jack that it would be for the best that he disentangle himself from Cassie. The image of Alma and his failed marriage loomed large. But then again, some members had noted that the scene at the grayhound station may have most likely occurred sometime after the final confrontation, so it is also possible that the last meeting with Jack solidified Ennis's resolve to break all intimacy with Cassie.
Look at Ennis's eyes in campfire light right after Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it." I can see the door marked "Cassie" being shut, locked and the key pitched down the mountain. They are so close, in this one moment after 16 years of 2 or 3 "fishing trips" a year, to identifying each other honestly, at last, as lovers. They are so very near happiness, so close...
At the last campfire, Jack asks Ennis how come he hasn't got a woman yet. Ennis talks a little bit about Cassie, effectively introducing her to Jack while saying that he does see this girl, but is really not interested in her. Ennis then asks Jack about his ongoing relationship with Lureen. Jack says he might as well phone their sex life in, and in the next breath tells Ennis that it doesn't matter because Ennis is the one he misses most in his life.
Look at Ennis's eyes in campfire light right after Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it." I can see the door marked "Cassie" being shut, locked and the key pitched down the mountain. They are so close, in this one moment after 16 years of 2 or 3 "fishing trips" a year, to identifying each other honestly, at last, as lovers. They are so very near happiness, so close... :\'(
The thing in this scene that really gets to me though is that after all their time together, Jack can't even say, "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," he feels that it's necessary to soften the the impact of revealing his deep feelings for Ennis by qualifying it with, "Sometimes."
Yep, even at this stage, Jack is still fearful of loosing Ennis at this point. It's not just "sometimes" it's every time he goes back to Texas. Back to his *half life with Lureen and Randall. The look on Jack's face as they pack up once again to end the trip tells the story. Then Ennis adds insult to injury with the November business. Jack's frustration takes a turn for the worse and Ennis knows it. His Jack is not happy to say the least. Watch Ennis's manner when Jack slams the truck door. Then he goes on to try to appease Jack somehow with promises of huntings trips and Don Wroes's cabin etc... Jack mumbles it's time he wants, just a little more time, thats all. Jack obviously is no longer buying the money aspects as Ennis tries to excuse his lack of quality time with Jack. Ennis never just thinks that with Jack, it's not about money it's about them. Money can be gotten later as Jack's life plan would make it possible for Ennis to never have to worry about working for someone else ever again.
See now, ya learn something everyday - I never considered that Ennis was talking to Jack about money as anything other than why he couldn't be there in August. I truly cannot conceive of any reason other than that Ennis worked for the same ranch owner (Stoutamire) for a longer time than he had any others and was becoming useful there. I'd actually supposed he'd been with Stoutamire long enough to have ambled his way at least a little ways up the "food chain" there, and might even be making a little more cash than he'd become used to.
Ennis has given up his life - jobs he could quit just to go off into the wilderness with Jack, where he really wanted to be but was sure either one of them (or both) would be killed if they were ever discovered. The fears and paranoia given him by his father over "Earl" would be enough to stymie me, for sure. (This is what: "I am nothin', I got nothin' "mean to me - Ennis gave up his life or Jack.)
See now, ya learn something everyday - I never considered that Ennis was talking to Jack about money as anything other than why he couldn't be there in August. I truly cannot conceive of any reason other than that Ennis worked for the same ranch owner (Stoutamire) for a longer time than he had any others and was becoming useful there. I'd actually supposed he'd been with Stoutamire long enough to have ambled his way at least a little ways up the "food chain" there, and might even be making a little more cash than he'd become used to.
Ennis has given up his life - jobs he could quit just to go off into the wilderness with Jack, where he really wanted to be but was sure either one of them (or both) would be killed if they were ever discovered. The fears and paranoia given him by his father over "Earl" would be enough to stymie me, for sure. (This is what: "I am nothin', I got nothin' "mean to me - Ennis gave up his life for Jack.)
Ironically, of course, had they been in more regular or constant contact, the situation would have been recognised as intolerable much earlier. It was at least partly because they saw one another rarely, in a sort of holiday mood, with the other as an occasional break from a life they disliked, that the thing lasted for nearly twenty years. You have to admit that they saw each other as not having the disadvantages you see when you live with someone and in a situation where the most important thing was their relationship, its problems and pleasures. Not a lot like RL.
Yes, but to what result? Believe me, I have a pretty intimate knowledge of this type of situation. And the question is, if that type of confrontation had happened earlier in their relationship, would it have broken them up? Or would it have allowed them the chance to work through whatever their issues were and make their relationship stronger? Would being together on a daily basis and through the mundane chores of 'regular life' have eroded the power of their connection or given them the time together for longer stretches that you need to work through your differences and establish your common ground?
I, of course, am a romantic, so I like to think that Jack and Ennis would have weathered whatever life threw at them. If they ever got to a time and place where Ennis was able to aknowledge their relationship at least to himself and Jack, if not the rest of the world.
So are you saying that if Jack and Ennis had met more often, Their differences would have come to the surface and they find after awhile they could'nt stand each other? What exactlly is it, What kept Jack coming back to meet Ennis for 20 years? I suppoe Jack at some part started to compartmentalize his life right? By that I mean He got what he needed from each of the people in his life,, got something from Lureen, Ennis, Randall all his lovers, he never divorced Lureen. so she had to be important to him in many ways.
From Ennis , he got sexual gratification and acceptance on an personal/ emotional level. He was Jack's ideal but other factors got in the way, Randall represented the stability he sought as he got older. If he could have found someone with all the same qualities/belief system he had, in one person, instead of 3 seperate ones. he would have perfection ,...real life just isn't like that.
20 years is very a long long time Almost a life time.. familiarity? They're just used to each other ? therefore the comfort zone with each oher was there? I imagine Jack saying " F-ck it I aint goin no more" " I'll find somebody else who loves me for who I really am and aint ashamed of me."
If Ennis could have therapy ,his assignment should be a long long look in the mirror everyday and saying over and over " I'm gay, and I love Jack Twist so many times that he's able to say it to J ack'd face. Could Ennis do it though? Say it to himself? Or is he really to far gone? Sadly it took Jack's death to convince him of Jack's real love for him, maybe Ennis asked himself after Jack's death, if his fears were worth loosing the one he loved forever. Just a few thoughts
I myself wouldn't focus so much on the "getting sick of each other" through familiarity, though I totally know that's true, as WW said so eloquently, ala the plumber, etc. I like to think that had they seen each other more often, the situation would have been pushed, one way or the other. I think with their strong love, and as men together in new territory (without the gay support we have these days) they would have wanted it to work and would have worked on it even more.
And aintfoolin, yes, I often thought that also about Ennis: what if he had had "therapy." It wouldn't have happened, not back then, but if it had... Jack had to be his therapist -- help him own his true self -- and he didn't really do an excellent job of it.
kathy
Yes, but to what result? Believe me, I have a pretty intimate knowledge of this type of situation. And the question is, if that type of confrontation had happened earlier in their relationship, would it have broken them up? Or would it have allowed them the chance to work through whatever their issues were and make their relationship stronger? Would being together on a daily basis and through the mundane chores of 'regular life' have eroded the power of their connection or given them the time together for longer stretches that you need to work through your differences and establish your common ground?
I, of course, am a romantic, so I like to think that Jack and Ennis would have weathered whatever life threw at them. If they ever got to a time and place where Ennis was able to aknowledge their relationship at least to himself and Jack, if not the rest of the world.
I too think that I am a romantic, although I can't help to think that I go for the darker side of romanticism many times.
For me, they understood each other implicitly -- without recourse to rationalism. In this regard, their love was romantic. Wether one thinks this love saved them or destroyed them, one can't help but feeling that even in death, Jack understood, and Ennis -- though beaten -- would make that love endure.
Interesting, what exactly do you mean? I feel I'm drawn similarly to it, if we're on the same wavelength. There's something about the melancholia of romanticism or love or continuity that presents a certain shelter for me. It's like having not exactly a reality check but a pit stop to wherever love is taking us, to remind us we're humans that hurt and may continue over holes in the blueprint because we're not alone.
So many people wince at the dark side of things and do everything to avoid it, but I feel it's because they're without the big picture in mind.
Just a cent of my two.
^f^
I do think we are talking about the same thing here, orangetruck. The depth of night is also beautiful, no?
I can't help but feel that Ennis and Jack did somehow understand that they lived and loved on borrowed time -- especially in Jack's last speech to Ennis and in the last scene with Ennis, where we get a feeling that certain things have passed, never to return.
I love the fact that so many things about Ennis and Jack in the movie are in shadows. This left unsaid. The low light of autumn. The inevitability of decay. I feel that Ennis and Jack understood these things, and that it made their love all the more poigniant.
Excellent.
This reminds me of that stunningly dim, minimal conversation they'd cast out over the mountains after FNIT. Not just the lighting but also the mood encouraging twilight, some place even more outcast than the Brokeback Mountain itself. To me it seemed to be so silently alarming, yet so intimate and romantic.
^f^
In BBM, twilight and dawn become confused, no?
For me, Ennis and Jack understood each other only in the half-light. They did not see or understand everything they saw in each other. It is in these moments that one falls in love with shadows. But sometimes, one mistakes twilight for dawn. After the summer of 63, I believe that it was one long embracing twilight.
Ennis and Jack are perhaps best understood by lovers of the night.
I too think that I am a romantic, although I can't help to think that I go for the darker side of romanticism many times.
For me, they understood each other implicitly -- without recourse to rationalism. In this regard, their love was romantic. whether one thinks this love saved them or destroyed them, one can't help but feeling that even in death, Jack understood, and Ennis -- though beaten -- would make that love endure.
tpe - the reason has escaped me but the memory lingers on... "without recourse to rationalism" is a perfect way to describe their love: intensely felt but not discussed. Their love endures and Ennis's ability to love and know what it is increases. He grows enough that we can see it - when he sniffs Alma, Jr.'s sweater before hanging it in the closet (while she's still alive) it is a sign IMO that he has graduated to adulthood, leaving 9 yr old Ennis back in the past where he's belonged since before we met Ennis - and although he will live lonely (for now? - he can only go up) and his closet is still bigger than all outdoors (or at least all he can see out the window), the window does have something golden growing all the way to the horizon, and and he can see the wind still makes the grasses shift like waves on the ocean. Something's still flowing.
(I can't tell you how many times I looked out that window before I knew what I was seeing. As many times I tried to assure myself that there was some hope, some future, until I found it - so it may not be "really" there, but even then, giving that golden horizon some meaning does take some of the sting out. We are at least allowed to think that one of them endures in the light they created together.)
As long as Ennis "lets a panel of the dream slide forward," Jack will never die. As long as they are remembered, they will live on.
Just reading your posts tpe, orangetruck, it struck me -the film does open in darkness and evlove toward the full daylight of the ending...
These posts are all wonderful insights - what was Ang doing here?
Opening shot: Dawn, POV - the outdoors of the Great Plains, we are looking through the window into the truck cab, Ennis inside opening the door to get out.
Closing shot: (20 yrs later) Late afternoon, POV - the indoors of the small trailer, Ennis closing the closet door, looking out the window at the bleak Great Plains.
These posts are all wonderful insights - what was Ang doing here?
Opening shot: Dawn, POV - the outdoors of the Great Plains, we are looking through the window into the truck cab, Ennis inside opening the door to get out.
Closing shot: (20 yrs later) Late afternoon, POV - the indoors of the small trailer, Ennis closing the closet door, looking out the window at the bleak Great Plains.
Nice.
I've been very intrigued that the movie starts running along the dim Great Plains, the headlight grabbing our attention.
And towards the end, on his way back to his trailer, Ennis is found on what looks like the same road, the same business of headlight and darkness.
It really kind of beats me up, it's so hauntingly beautiful, deep. :-\\
When Ennis arrives in the tractor-trailer, he's riding from right to left, carrying a paper sack with all his worldly belongings; when he drives away from Lightning Flats, he's riding left to right across the screen, carrying the two shirts (his life) in a paper sack.
FIY and definitely OT:
The vehicle driver on the set - who was driving the semi (opening) and later "Ennis's" pickup, indicated in an interview that both were shot on same stretch of road, just days apart.
. . . the the stoic rolls away with the love of his life in his little brown paper sac. . . .
If ya got nuthin, ya don't need nuthin' . . .
:\'( :\'( :\'(
Yin/yang works in quiet ways, I'd say.
I think the 20 year trip and its finale was confirmation of such twilight. Or perhaps it was a 39 year old trip. :\'(
- the dawn being the inarticulate shadows in one another. Each had hoped to find what they felt in the other. It took Ennis 20 years after this fact to find it. :-\\
"I'm nothin'", "I'm nowhere", "You ain't got nothin' you don't need nothin'" Is this why he held on to Jack, because their love was all he had?
But was it at the final confrontation did Ennis understood this or was it when Alma, Jr. came to visit.
tpe - the reason has escaped me but the memory lingers on... "without recourse to rationalism" is a perfect way to describe their love: intensely felt but not discussed. Their love endures and Ennis's ability to love and know what it is increases. He grows enough that we can see it - when he sniffs Alma, Jr.'s sweater before hanging it in the closet (while she's still alive) it is a sign IMO that he has graduated to adulthood, leaving 9 yr old Ennis back in the past where he's belonged since before we met Ennis - and although he will live lonely (for now? - he can only go up) and his closet is still bigger than all outdoors (or at least all he can see out the window), the window does have something golden growing all the way to the horizon, and and he can see the wind still makes the grasses shift like waves on the ocean. Something's still flowing.
(I can't tell you how many times I looked out that window before I knew what I was seeing. As many times I tried to assure myself that there was some hope, some future, until I found it - so it may not be "really" there, but even then, giving that golden horizon some meaning does take some of the sting out. We are at least allowed to think that one of them endures in the light they created together.)
As long as Ennis "lets a panel of the dream slide forward," Jack will never die. As long as they are remembered, they will live on.
Just reading your posts tpe, orangetruck, it struck me -the film does open in darkness and evolve toward the full daylight of the ending...
Again, IMHO- He became enlightened in Jack's closet, hence his penetrating question to Jr. later - "Does he love you?" He knew what it was (and how important it was) by then, it's why he hung the shirts, a symbol of his (and Jack's) love - he had had sumthin'.
Again, IMHO- He became enlightened in Jack's closet, hence his penetrating question to Jr. later - "Does he love you?" He knew what it was (and how important it was) by then, it's why he hung the shirts, a symbol of his (and Jack's) love - he had had sumthin'.
If you don't mind Brokies, this is very interesting but for a while now this thread is going off topic. :s)
If you could please stick to the subject: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?
Thank you! ;)
Nice post, aintfoolin. This is indeed an important aspect to their getting close, that Ennis become comfortable with Jack's touch -- and yes, it is Jack doing the touching in the beginning. Just casual touch became acceptable, and the sitting closer to each other. So their eventually physical closeness didn't come out of nowhere.
kathy
In SNIT we see Ennis enter the tent, kneel down in front of Jack, but his eyes spell a hesitance. He is close but though it is subtle , Ennis inches closer and closer to Jack like he was gonna initiate the kiss, but could'nt quite bring himself to do it. By this time though, Jack had it figured and initiated the kiss himself. I melt every time I watch this, gawd it's SO romantic.
Your posts are so romantic that I´m melting¡ :t) ^-^ IMO, as they become closer in mental and psychologically senses,they look for and like the phisycal proximity and,little by little,the contact. :f)
They began by creating a great friendship because both of them needed the tenderness and affection they hardly had when children and they found a boy of their age who ,while listening to their problems,made come out to the surface the best of both of them-as if in Ennis´case,when he became more talkative with Jack that never before-.And when you give someone trust,affection and company,the closeness in every sense is more than probable.
Yes, I think a lot came before that first touch. :) Sometimes, I think by the time this happened, how they saw each other was perhaps completely formed.Sorry,but my bad English laughs at me very often...;I don´t understand exactly what you mean in your post.Could you explain it to me,please?
Yes, I think a lot came before that first touch. :) Sometimes, I think by the time this happened, how they saw each other was perhaps completely formed.
Ennis must have remembered in the previous encounter or was aware that Jack wanted and tried to kiss him then. IMO opinion, kissing is a lot more intimate act. He must have had very strong feelings for Jack if he was willing, though hesitant to let go like this. Ennis seemed as if he felt really free. I imagine how suprised Jack was, yet delighted. In FNIT, had enough *clues* and insight into Ennis's secret desires and took the inititive, but in SNIT , it was Ennis who not only discovered that Jack became a part of him that night and v/v but explained it to Jack in SNIT in his own shy sexy way. I felt lucky for Jack and I love watching their love unfold this way on both their part. MO
tpe: I know I’m way off from what most people see here. But to me, if your 19, poor (in Ennis’s case dirt poor), and think yourself a heterosexual male I don’t think the first time you see another man outside the employment office where you’re going to get a job (probably the only job around) I don’t see that you're first thinkin’ “Man he’s hot, how can I get to know Him?”. Yeah, in the case of Jack, due to his “priors” he may have been thinking that somewhere along the line while waiting. But I don’t think it would have even occurred to Ennis, he’s to concerned with gettin’ a paying job so as to have something to eat and ‘course he’s thinking ‘bout Alma in November. IMHO what a lot of folks see as courtship at this early point I see as bravado and scoping out or bluffing the competition.
BUT, this quickly changes inside the trailer when they find out their gonna’ be companions NOT competitors. The glances inside the trailer begin to show that friendly “hmmm, check him out look”. That’s one of the things I love about BBM, it takes so many quick subtle turns like this, so many places where the story could have easily been entirely different except for fate. As soon as they knew they were gonna’ be mates then they started trying to prove they were worthy as you say with the stories in the bar and stuff.
jackster
I agree with every thing you say here , but don't you think that the way Jack * displayed* himself that morning across the truck left a lasting impression on Ennis from th beginning? I mean this was not the usaal manner for a guy to behave especially in Ennis's world at the time. These opening scenes still fascinate me with Jack almost openly preening himself across the truck lke this? As i think back to when I first saw this scene, I felt then that it was Jack who would initiate the first move in this thing. I was right. To me, this was a very * inviting* clue from the competition, striking this pose early on. What was Ennis really reading into when Jack did this as he took a peek from underneath that cowboy hat.! No, I'm not Ennis, but as a woman, if upon first seeing Jack or any other guy who does this, I'd definitly read more into this burning stare and *open* interest in what I'm doing there than just another person, scoping out the competition for a job. With Ennis's limited ( but latent) knowledge of homosexuality, I think he secretly *went there* in his mind finding Jack sexually attractive , or is this just my imagination that ran wild? Just thinkin.
I agree with every thing you say here , but don't you think that the way Jack * displayed* himself that morning across the truck left a lasting impression on Ennis from th beginning? I mean this was not the usaal manner for a guy to behave especially in Ennis's world at the time. These opening scenes still fascinate me with Jack almost openly preening himself across the truck lke this? As i think back to when I first saw this scene, I felt then that it was Jack who would initiate the first move in this thing. I was right. To me, this was a very * inviting* clue from the competition, striking this pose early on. What was Ennis really reading into when Jack did this as he took a peek from underneath that cowboy hat.! No, I'm not Ennis, but as a woman, if upon first seeing Jack or any other guy who does this, I'd definitly read more into this burning stare and *open* interest in what I'm doing there than just another person, scoping out the competition for a job. With Ennis's limited ( but latent) knowledge of homosexuality, I think he secretly *went there* in his mind finding Jack sexually attractive , or is this just my imagination that ran wild? Just thinkin.
. . . I suppose people interpret lots of things differently in the film, seeing the action as we see fit, but in scenes such as this one and others too, it is good to recieve points of view from both genders. It shines more insight into how we as human beings see the inner workings of how they really saw each other. . . .
Kudos to jackster!
He absolutely was. And I think Ennis finally realized it too late, after Jack was gone and nothing could be done. But before that, he was locked in his own self-denial and fear. I don't think he even allowed himself to admit that what they had was love, classic romantic love. He clung to his "You know I ain't queer" mantra like a protective coat. And tried, I think, to mold his idea of Jack to fit that same frame. If he thought of Jack as gay, he'd have to entertain the possibility that he was gay too. And that was something he wasn't able to do.FlwrChild, I love what you said here. Ennis and Jack were best friends drawn into the passion, and love that was a force of nature. Jack followed his heart, and if Ennis had, too, they would have lived happily ever after. But circumstance and social injustice made Ennis felt he could not accept it, following his heart. They both made sacrifices for 20 years to sustain this almost impossible relationship. How many long-distance romances do we know that last more than 2 or ten years, much less 20.
I think he thought of Jack as his best friend. As the one person he felt like 'himself' with. As the one person he could be free with. And certainly he was drawn to Jack physically. But I don't think he allowed himself to acknowledge his love for Jack, even just to himself, in the same way that I think Jack knew how he felt about Ennis.
In spite of all that, he did make remarkable sacrifices to be with Jack. Quitting jobs and living a spartan lifestyle to be able to accomodate a regular meeting schedule. And more than that, living with the constant fear of people 'knowing' about him just by looking at him. He was fighting against a lifetime of conditioning and did the best he could.
As to Jack, I think he was just a more impulsive, follow the heart kind of person. He wanted a life with Ennis but accepted the conditions because he wanted whatever time they could have together. And I think, as evidenced by the post-divorce scene, that for a long time he thought that eventually that might happen. After the cold water got poured on that idea, he was just in too deep to walk away.
Either way, they sustained a loving relationship for 20 years. Even with all of their heartache and lost chances, that is one heck of an accomplishment.
Ennis was a realist, Jack a dreamer, it was pointed out when they were together and Jack angry told Ennis he wanted to live his miserable life. I don't think it escape them at all at what kind of life they both were living.You always go right to the heart of it, manhattengirl! Ennis the practical dependable guy and Jack the dreamer - together they made dreams come true, and Jack would gladly leave everything to be with Ennis. Ennis only found real joy when he was with Jack.
Ennis love for Jack goes so deeply, he felt he was committed to him, and living his solitary life, but he knew it was impossible for them to have a life. Jack love him the same way, his commitment was his heart, his soul, but not necessarily his body, "I'm not you" he told Ennis. in spite of his wife, his comfortable life, even Randall in the background. He would have gladly gave all of it up for Ennis without hesitation.
They knew how they felt about each other, but knew how far one would go for the other, and that's the heartbreaking thing about it. How far would one go for the other do you think?
I've always thought that it was mostly lonliness that brought these two guys together ( along with circumstance). Neither had a strong tie to a family, nor lots of friends and associates. The jobs they went after were lonely, as was the job on BBM. Although Ennis had Alma waiting at home, he was willing to leave her to look for work which kept him away from her. And, although Jack had a mom and dad, they lived such a bleak, isolated life, he was willing to go on the rodeo circuit and take odd jobs to pay his entrance fees. So, I think both men were used to being solitary, making decisions for themselves about their own lives, and not asking help from anyone.I am totally onboard with you lamusica, except for Ennis love for Jack.
Keeping that in mind, then, this togetherness into which they were thrust in the BBM job was something they were not necessarily used to, but something they grew to like. I think they first came to be friends -- they teased each other, drank together, laughed and talked. They became very much at ease with one another. This, of course, paved the way for Jack to make his overture.
As the years passed, I think their friendship deepened, as did their passion for one another, even after the newness wore off. It was always good for them (SS). They became each other's habit -- comfortable, but contained within the various mountain ranges they explored. Jack loved Ennis and would have traveled around the world to get to him. Ennis, in my opinion, needed Jack's affection and love enough that he sometimes reciprocated. Deep down, Ennis was the needy one, and Jack met his needs. Jack made Ennis's life worth living, which is something Alma couldn't do. But, did Ennis love as much as Jack??? IMO, it wasn't untiil Ennis found the shirts that he really understood what love was and how much Jack loved him. Then, Ennis acccepted the fact that he did, indeed, LOVE Jack.
I'm only talking from Ennis's view point. Could it be that it wasn't only what happened to Earl and Rich, that stayed with Ennis, but the fact that he equated Earl and Rich, to him and Jack. Remember how Ennis remembered them, "They were the joke of the town, but they were tough old birds", He remembered them, he remembered what was said of them. In other words, "I am them, they are me". Does this make sense? It goes to the fact of how Ennis identified himself. Why didn't Jack remember this, and tried to reach Ennis "we are not them, they are not us".You are so right, manhattangirl! I think both Ennis and Jack identified with those guys in Ennis' memories. I will always have the image of Jack reaching out to caress Ennis' ear, as after he asked, "And you saw this!" Then Ennis replied, "My old man...Heck, as far as I know, he could've done the job himself." Jack's own issues with his old man must have made him identified with these Earl and Rich, dealing with his own fears probably made it hard for him to tell Ennis "We are not them."
The shirts themselves were a key to Jack. He stole Ennis's shirt after the fight the last day on Brokeback. He kept them during the four years they weren't together. He had them when he went searching for Ennis, and kept them all the years after the reunion. He bonded himself to Ennis all his life. When it wasn't physical it was spiritual. I believe he had no intentions of Ennis ever seeing them, nor do I think Jack believe Ennis would ever understand the meaning of it.
Ennis's "one shot thing" mentality, forced Jack in many ways to go underground with what he wanted to tell Ennis, until the final confrontation, and even then he only told so much.
Ennis was a walking contradiction. He never reconciled himself to idea of Jack, being a man, him loving him, his raw sexual need for him, and above all his inability to let him go, but keeping him at a distance he could handle. How in the heck did they keep from killing each other?
I agree, Jack definitly had his fears. Fears of loosing Ennis if he came on too strong, but I have to disagree on the statement above that Jack never intended Ennis to find the or ever know he had taken the shirt and kept it all through the years.Thanks, aintfooling, for pointing out Jack's fear. I think you are right that Jack is afraid of losing Ennis if he were to come on too strong. That's why he always prefaced his confession of "can hardly stand it" or "I redlined all the the way here" with some joking remark. He wanted Ennis to feel at ease, as two best buddies, and not two queers.
If by some miracle, Jack lived and managed to convice Ennis to join him in LF, I feel Jack would have eventually shown Ennis the shirts or Ennis would have discovered after a period of time.
The manner in which he had them displayed, his over top Ennis's would have the same affect on Ennis , even more so if Jack had lived. Mrs. Twist knew about them, I think Jack had shown them to her and discussed the implication of them and how they related to him and Ennis. Why they were there, why they were hidden away in this manner. Why Mrs. Twist did not dispose of them after her son's death. No, she knew what they meant, and why they were there hanging in Jack's closet since "63".
Ennis never made it to LF hile Jack was still alive, but when he did arrive , it was she who came outside to greet him. It was Ennis who came, not Lareen or Randall. She finally gets to meet Ennis Del Mar, The love of her son's life, welcomed him into her home, PROMPTED Ennis to Jack's room with a clue to Ennis that "everything remains as Jack desired them to be" "Jack would have liked it that way". The relationship between she and Ennis has been widely discussed on the forum, but it is my belief that this was engineered by the two people who knew why Ennis would travel there now, when he never did before. My humble opinion.
Thanks for your post, L. Cowboy , you always enlighten me to new ways of looking at these events . I've not looked at it this way, that Mrs. Twist just put 2and2 together concerning Jack's relationship with Ennis. In fact it's more probable in this way. I feel Jack felt very close to his moms, talking about her to Ennis in the *waterwalking scene" . Think he adored her. Mothers do have a unique * insight* into their children. No different in this case imo.Thanks, aintfooling, we enlighten each other, isn't that what love suppose to do? :^^)
Jack's parents knew of Ennis's existence so Jack had discussed him with them in some fashion, maybe just as a friend who was coming to help out on the ranch, according to OMT, but Mrs. Twist figured there was more to this over the years.
It was Lureen who told Ennis where half the ashes were, and he came specifically to ask for them and carry out Jack's wishes. My personal feeling is that she did'nt know Ennis would come up , maybe secretly hoped he would having an intuitive suspicion that this is Jack's *friend*. In any case she treated him with dignity and respect.
He did'nt get the ashes , but left with a new understanding of Jack's love for him, and a very precious gift in the form of the shirts, and last, but not least, an invitation to come back and see her again. Having lost his own mother at a young age , Ennis had to feel he had gained through this visit ,a special connection to Jack in her, a confidant as well as something that he so badly needed and missed...A surrogate mom, and who better than Jack's mom. She understood without judgement.
Yes,Lance,the ending of the tale you promised us to write some day,¿didn´t you? ^^) Well,I haven´t read this thread completely,but I found all the posts very interesting(thanks,aintfoolin).I only want to add that for me Ennis and Jack see each other like the affection and the help they didin´t have as it´d correspond in their childhood.They were and see each other like the ying and the yang,the opposite but at the same time complement of the other. Boyish as he was at 63,Jack found a relax in Ennis way of being and an occasion of learning what his own father had denied him-surely because,right,he knew about his homosexuality-.And Ennis found someone who allowed him to open himself,to be more talkative,to live life more and better...And,simply,and no matter how many problems and even,dissapointments they found in the other,they saw each other as THE REAL LOVE OF THEIR LIFE.
Yes,Lance,the ending of the tale you promised us to write some day,¿didn´t you? ^^) Well,I haven´t read this thread completely,but I found all the posts very interesting(thanks,aintfoolin).I only want to add that for me Ennis and Jack see each other like the affection and the help they didin´t have as it´d correspond in their childhood.They were and see each other like the ying and the yang,the opposite but at the same time complement of the other. Boyish as he was at 63,Jack found a relax in Ennis way of being and an occasion of learning what his own father had denied him-surely because,right,he knew about his homosexuality-.And Ennis found someone who allowed him to open himself,to be more talkative,to live life more and better...And,simply,and no matter how many problems and even,dissapointments they found in the other,they saw each other as THE REAL LOVE OF THEIR LIFE.
And,simply,and no matter how many problems and even,dissapointments they found in the other,they saw each other as THE REAL LOVE OF THEIR LIFE.
Thanks lancecowboy2007, aintfoolin, and MPJ. :)
However they saw each other, there is no question in my mind that they responded to genuine love. It colored the way they looked at each other, and smoothed away all faults and disappointments. It is not really an illusion, because I really think every person is different to each of his/her acquaintances, although the person is one and the same.
Love is kind and compassionate. Mrs. Twist saw in Ennis what Jack saw, a man filled with love for his son. With love in our eyes, we see the best in the ones we love, their potential, not their shortcomings. Our love for them fill in what needs filling in. They stand taller, walk straighter, and speak more openly, no matter what their reality really. Jack put up with Ennis for twenty years because he saw the potential that Ennis can be, one day. Ennis loved Jack on the mountain, even with all his screw ups, because he saw the man filled with strength, emotionally, and loyalty.
I think, in a way, this forum sees each person at the best the person can be, not where we stand this moment. It is the same love between Jack and Ennis that we share. Seeing the best in each other - what the future will bring, overlooking the faults in each other and in ourselves - letting the past slide, and be strong in the present. Even the faults that we have, are endearing in our own eccentric ways, like Jack's harmonica playing which Ennis makes fun of, but loves because it means Jack is there. Even the faults are delicious in love.
I think your last sentence pretty much encapsulates the core of how I feel about how Ennis and Jack see each other. And yes, it is the same in theis forum. :)8) I am pretty proud of that line. It just came out all by itself. :*(
That's just another definition of loving someone, isn't it? You see flaws but they are unimportant compared with the fact that this is the person you need to be with, the person with whom you want to share a life.
Another important question is how did they see themselves and how that relates to what they needed from each other. If they completed each other. what was it that they got from each other that made them a complete person? I understand what Ennis needed from Jack as he was less complete as a person imo but what did Jack get from Ennis? He loved him. Clearly he was the one pushing the relationship forward.
What would be the the result if Jack, due to his frustration just said " I aint meetin you no more" "I aint puttin myself out there no longer because you hurt me" I imagine he had these thoughts in moments of frustration. He was wishing to find a way to quit Ennis toward the end, but in reality, was'nt he wishing to find an outcome to all this in the end? Could he really quit? Was his thoughts of the dozy embrace proof that he never could after all was said and done?
Personally, I feel Jack would have met Ennis at Pine Creek despite his fustration , Did he still have hope? After 20 years I think he still had hope, but things could never be the status quo after the confrontation. So far Ennis had givin up a marriage, and dumped Cassie. Was this preparation on his part to finally commit to Jack. or at last compromise in some fashion? To do this Ennis would have to accept that he and Jack were of the same sexual orientation I still wonder if Ennis could go there..If only Jack had lived....
Of course, when we love somebody we tend to lessen their defects,we see them as little faults or lacks that never affect our global qualification of them;we tend to smooth the problems these defects could create because it´s also a way to maintain them by our side.This is what Ennis and Jack did during their relationship;even if they saw the difficulties that didn´t allow them to be together,they put their best to see only the kind side of their situation to enjoy the little time they had for each other.Really,they didn´t see a man who always put a wall between them and their wishes or another man who looked in prostitutes for what couldn´t find as often as he wanted to;above all,they saw LOVE WHEN THEY SAW EACH OTHER.That´s all.
***
Personally, I feel Jack would have met Ennis at Pine Creek despite his fustration , Did he still have hope? After 20 years I think he still had hope, but things could never be the status quo after the confrontation. So far Ennis had givin up a marriage, and dumped Cassie. Was this preparation on his part to finally commit to Jack. or at last compromise in some fashion? To do this Ennis would have to accept that he and Jack were of the same sexual orientation I still wonder if Ennis could go there..If only Jack had lived....
I have thought more often that he had indeed lost hope, although some residual portion may have clung to him -- enough to make him NOT shut Ennis out of his life. Perhaps his thinking of moving with Randall was one last desperate attempt to bring matters to a head...
I don't think Jack lost hope with Ennis, not after twenty years. He was frustrated, yes. He was desperate, yes. He was frightened that the years are slipping by, "never enough time", yes. But IMO, Jack was deeply in love with Ennis, and would go back to Ennis if he was ever asked. Pine Creek absolutely. Lightning Flat or any other little ranch you bet.
Problem was, Ennis told Jack in their last meeting that he couldn't stand it any more. Jack would NEVER do anything deliberately to hurt Ennis. That's true love. If Jack thought their meeting together was hurting Ennis, Jack would sacrifice it for Ennis' sake, just as Ennis' sacrificed his own happiness to be with Jack to avoid the fate he feared. When Jack proposed, like this always, to Ennis, IMO, there was a tremendous struggle in Ennis, that's why he moved closer to Jack, almost like jumping up and wanting to hug him, but his fears won out in the end, and sat, with back to Jack, facing the fire, reminiscing the traumatic memory.
What Jack and Ennis had was true love. No little things could change that. It took something big, like social injustice and hatred to end it.
Moving in with Randall was just Jack's way of dealing with his own loneliness, and I think the stoical Ennis learned to manage loneliness much better than the impulsive Jack. Just my opinion.
Sorry lance, I should have specified what I meant by "losing hope." I have been so used to saying it this way; what I meant was that Jack would have lost hope in sharing a sweet life with Ennis -- certainly not losing hope (i.e., love) with Ennis. I do think that Jack never stopped loving Ennis, even though his hope of making his dream a reality may have faded.Thanks, tpe, appreciate your explaining it to a newbie. I think you are right. It hadn't occur to me until yesterday that as Jack grows evidently older, he must be feeling the pressure of the years slipping by, the sweat life in Lightning Flat must be such a burden weighing him down every time he visits. The mean old Mr Twist probably nail him with questions about how Ennis never got to visit once in twenty years, or when is he going to fix up the ranch.
Thanks, tpe, appreciate your explaining it to a newbie. I think you are right. It hadn't occur to me until yesterday that as Jack grows evidently older, he must be feeling the pressure of the years slipping by, the sweat life in Lightning Flat must be such a burden weighing him down every time he visits. The mean old Mr Twist probably nail him with questions about how Ennis never got to visit once in twenty years, or when is he going to fix up the ranch.
It may be, and I am speculating, that Jack asked Randall to go to Lightning Flat, was bluntly refused and Randall may have simply refused to see Jack again. Desperate now for the sweet life, Jack might have (in his mid-life crisis) ventured to the rodeo circuit trying to find a young version of Ennis, to start the sweet life he dreamed of, and never got. Maybe that's how he got murdered. The young cowboy he tried to pick up got together with some friends and killed him, or beat him up, and left him for dead. When men are desperate for love and companions, they make fatal mistakes.
yes, we should not forget that Jack was always talking about bringing Ennis back to LF, presumably years before Randall entered the picture. And we should note that it never happened. So we cannot be sure whether this is the same with his desire to bring Randall back to LF.
For Jack, it was always the stuff of dreams that seemed to give him the impetus to live. In a way, I think that is why I love him.
I adore Jack as well, but it is Ennis that I truly identify with, and perhaps love. Almost everyone who knows Jack seem to think his dreams are exactly that, only dreams where blue birds sing next to a whiskey spring, and dreams that often don't come to reality. That's why he and Ennis are soul-mates, together the dreamer rely on the builder to make their common dreams come true. The problem comes when Ennis doesn't buy-in on Jack's schemes. I think Jack failed to sell the most important dream in his life to Ennis. That's the tragedy in Jack's life. Ennis' tragedy was his inability to communicate, to open to the life that he loves and yearns for, with Jack, until too late.
In a way, Ennis is the ground-pounder seeing only what's in front of him, content with his limited travel range, content with a life that's colorless, steady, changeless, monotonous. Routine is what drives Ennis. Jack is the only excitement that makes him truly happy.
On the other hand, Jack is the dreamer seeing all the potentialities, but never stick with anything long enough to make them real, fulfilling their potential. After all the years of failing, and his father-in-law needling him, Jack must feel insecure, which breeds more failure. I find it interesting that right after he met Laureen and she smiled at him appreciatively, he managed to win the bull-ride, after failing for a long time. He said he only made $2000 the year he met her. It says a lot about his state of mind. Ennis is the solid rock that gives him security, a strong foundation, a home, the confidence in himself and their future.
There is no question in my mind that the two are meant to be together. Yes, I know they are fictional characters, but they are also so real, to me...and all the people who in this forum.
I suppose that if you have a sense of your own failings, you may perceive that the other person lacks them and that may be one of the things that pulls you together, much as the space in a receptor is the binding site for a protein molecule.Hi, welshwitch, I love this analogy/metaphor. When the other person does not have the failings we perceive in ourselves, we see them as perfect, in spite of all their faults. Our own failings are always magnified within our own mind, and are minute in the minds of our loved ones by comparison.
Hi, welshwitch, I love this analogy/metaphor. When the other person does not have the failings we perceive in ourselves, we see them as perfect, in spite of all their faults. Our own failings are always magnified within our own mind, and are minute in the minds of our loved ones by comparison.
In fact, as your analogy/metaphor suggests, it is the failings that give our loved ones opportunities to show us their strengths, as Ennis filled the needs for Jack, so Jack also filled the needs for Ennis. A perfect match because of the imperfections.
I love this forum! <^( :^^)
You also have a beautiful way of saying it, lance. Thank you. :)It's my pleasure. :)
When BM was screened on free TV for the first time in the UK a few weeks ago, there was a write up in the most widely read TV guide - The RadioTimes. In this article, the author states that Jake has been quoted as saying that Ennis and Jack are not gay, and criticises him for this. I am sure that I have seen interviews where Jake quite clearly talks about the characters as being gay, and feel really irritated by the authors comments. Does anyone know if Jake ever said this?
The closest I can think of at the moment where Jake came close to saying anything about the gayness of the characters is in the About Film interview. Here is the pertinent passage:
AboutFilm: You said you thought about whether Heath could pull it off. Did you ever question yourself, and what did you question in yourself?
Gyllenhaal: I always had an argument with Ang—not an argument, but he was always like, “Jack has had more experiences with guys before, and he's more gay of the two of them.” And I was like, “Wow, am I really going to be able to be the one who brings [Heath] into this, and comforts him somehow?” I'm just as skeptical of it also, so how am I going to emotionally go there? Like their scene in the tent where I'm like, “Come in here.” I know what I'm doing, but I have no idea what I'm doing with this, you know what I mean? I'm the one who initiates these sexual encounters—which to me was totally foreign. It's like, “How do you do this? Does it look right?” And, yeah, I consider it a real movement towards something to go to a place where you're like, “Oh, this is about intimacy between two people.” You're going to have to put [the other stuff] out of your mind, and I had doubts from the beginning whether that was going to work. I think it surprises people when I say, “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.” People are like, “What's that mean?” And I'm like, “I don't really know. I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved.”
http://www.aboutfilm.com/movies/b/brokebackmountain/gyllenhaal.htm
Thanks, Thomas, this article and Ang Lee's are so honest and revealing. :\'(
Thanks, Thomas, this article and Ang Lee's are so honest and revealing. :\'(
I only rented the dvd after the awards to see what all the talk was about. Could'nt tell much from the trailor either, needless to say I was hooked on this film. My teenage daughter kept wanting me to rent this movie called "Donnie Darko" cuz some guy named Jake Gyllenhaal was in it. no idea who he was. ::) &*&
What Jake says is absolutley true. Brokeback is bigger than any of us.
OT: From BBM to DD -- two movies where Jake's characters don't exactly end up "well". ;)
Back to the original topic -- when he said that it was bigger than any of us, I tend to think he meant that questions like the character's sexual orientation are perhaps impossible to pin down with any certainty, because leach person will see things through the lens of his/her own unique experience. Life is richer than any single experience, ironically.
Thanks aintfoolin. Gyllenhaal may not know it, but his inability to pin down his own feelings/thoughts about the matter is shared by many of us. The honesty of his response and the use of the word "servicing" ssimply hows that the actor can go beyond his/her own personal limitations in order to bring something universal to life. That's the magic of great acting.
Your right again. I think I read something a while back that neither of these actors expected the film to become as big as it did. That fact that it won SO many awards speaks to the volume of the many perspectives of people from all walks of life, the kind of film where you either love it or hate it. I been in video stores and listened to a variety of opinions within earshot while scanning the shelves. Some say they'd never watch it , some say how much they loved it, but one thing for sure , nobody said " Hmmm, I never heard of it" It opened alot of eyes. Changed alot of people's lives.
Absolutely. Just as each of their personal experiences colored how they interpreted each other's behaviors and words.
Which is precisely why we're so drawn to it, I think. Well said Thomas. :)
It makes sense. Both of them did give each other a sense of completeness -- it is not unnatural that such an attraction is partly driven by them being so different in temperament, and that such a complementarity can be attractive and fulfilling to either of them.
I think that essentially,each one of them see the other like someone who gave them something...I mean,for Ennis,Jack was somebody who gave him the strength to be himself-even by doing an eternal struggle with himself too-and the feeling of having someone who cares for him just like he was.And for Jack,Ennis was somebody who gave him something to fight for and the feeling of having someone who loved him also just like he was.And I think too that both things were very important for two uprooted country boys who haven't got the love and cares they needed;one for feeling himself alone from a very early age,the other for feeling himself depicted from a very early age...I don't know if this makes sense, ~)
And some degree of incongruence gives a relationship added depth. A relationship without conflict and misunderstanding is not a relationship. Perhaps we shouldn't wonder too much how could they have endured the separation and misunderstandings of the nearly 20 years of knowing each other. They would have probably have endured much worse for less...
In the end, what they see in each other is indeed a part of themselves that has been missing...
O.K.-I just watched it again today and was fine until that last post. :(
Jack's love pursued Ennis from Brokeback "63" until we see him passionately fighting to save it in the confrontation scene. Yes , imo within his stinging words to Ennis , he fought for Ennis's love with as much passion as he hated the reasons why he had to say them. I think Jack knew Ennis loved him, sensed it, but I don't think he felt it , because Ennis could not accept a part of himself .... the part Jack needed to complete the puzzle permenatly. To settle for less with Lureen is one thing, to settle for less from the love of his life is another.
It was only the loss of having Jack that finally showed Ennis the depth of Jack's love,within the shirts Jack spoke again. It was only then did he allow himself to feel what Jack had felt since "63". It was then that he felt sad for Jack not ever finding the happiness he pursued, but even sadder that maybe.he and he alone could have changed the outcome. ..Just some thoughts and questions I have sometime. Thanx.
Jack's love pursued Ennis from Brokeback "63" until we see him passionately fighting to save it in the confrontation scene. Yes , imo within his stinging words to Ennis , he fought for Ennis's love with as much passion as he hated the reasons why he had to say them. I think Jack knew Ennis loved him, sensed it, but I don't think he felt it , because Ennis could not accept a part of himself .... the part Jack needed to complete the puzzle permenatly. To settle for less with Lureen is one thing, to settle for less from the love of his life is another.
It was only the loss of having Jack that finally showed Ennis the depth of Jack's love,within the shirts Jack spoke again. It was only then did he allow himself to feel what Jack had felt since "63". It was then that he felt sad for Jack not ever finding the happiness he pursued, but even sadder that maybe.he and he alone could have changed the outcome. ..Just some thoughts and questions I have sometime. Thanx.
Likewise, I think that Ennis understood that it was Jack he loved above all things, but fear made him make up excuses to put some distance between Jack and himself. This is very familiar to a lot of use, I would think: we put up walls between ourselves and those we love because sometimes, we cannot deal with the strength of that love. It is perverse, but part of human nature.I also think this,Thomas,and that he understood it so well that this is the root of all their misfortunes;if Ennis wasn't so afraid of what he was able to feel for another man,and wasn't so conscious of it,everything had been in another and easier way...What's more,I've arrived to believe that he even hated Jack sometimes for what he made him feel,for being the reason of his inner struggle.As a matter of fact,they say that love is very close to hate,no?.
I also think this,Thomas,and that he understood it so well that this is the root of all their misfortunes;if Ennis wasn't so afraid of what he was able to feel for another man,and wasn't so conscious of it,everything had been in another and easier way...What's more,I've arrived to believe that he even hated Jack sometimes for what he made him feel,for being the reason of his inner struggle.As a matter of fact,they say that love is very close to hate,no?.
I think such a hate is in the intrinsic nature of loving someone -- and I hope I don't come out as being paradoxial or obscure when I say this. I think you understand exactly what I mean. We commonly refer to this dynamic as "love-hate, but I think it is deeper than that. That is because love always challenges us in ways that bring us outside of our comfort zones, and hunman nature often makes us rebel against this.
And isn't this the most important thing in a love relationship? Trying to get outside of oneself to be as addapted as possible to the other way of being;if not in being similar,in understanding and respecting it.
It is the test and testament of true love. Love must leave the self and dwell unconditionally in the other, if it is truly love. Love of oneself is not true love.
It is the test and testament of true love. Love must leave the self and dwell unconditionally in the other, if it is truly love. Love of oneself is not true love.
Very well said tpe. Thank you for those words.The other important consideration is of those like Ennis who cannot recognize true love due to tramatic life events. It is important also to know how to accept true love when it finds you. Can one be blamed if one has never been shown true love or felt it? How can one love another if they don't have love of self?
I was wondering about this question for a while, how did they see each other. On the surface, Jack knew Ennis was struggling but proud, Ennis knew Jack was doing well with his griping about inflation.
But both knew deep down inside that they were the same broke ass kids of twenty year ago, that fell in love with each other. And maybe that where lays the problem, they really never did go beyond that, the fears youth, couldn't compete with years of living, knowing something of life and each other.
They were still on Brokeback, and always will be.
Yup. They’d seen near perfection in a solitary, magical world, through their youthful eyes.
There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.
After this how could anything seem it’s equal. Alone together, with the ability to construct their own fantasy world, nothing would ever, could ever, match the moment up on Brokeback.
I agree with you, friend. And I don't know why but what you said made me cry.They live all those 20 years up in BBM, even if they never returned to Brokeback...That's why I get sad when I watch that first part in the film, because I know that was the best moment in their lives and I know they'll never have it again...From now on, sadness, hurt, fears, even if they shared beautiful moments of joy and love during their fishing trips; but, for me, it was never the same.
I asked a question on another site. I was wondering if anyone feels that Jack or Ennis was stronger. I think that Jack was the stronger of the two. Just for his putting up with alot of Ennis's insecurities. Maybe if Ennis had been willing to give a little more. Maybe even try living with Jack for a short while, if it works then fine, if not then so be it.
The love that they had for each other is unbeleivable. Did anyone ever notice when Ennis is in the stream in the begining of the film. I think this is when Ennis knew he had some kind of feelings for Jack. He may not have known what it is, but he put enough into finding out. By the time of SNIT they both knew they were in it for the long haul.
Thanks
StephenZ
I feel like Ennis had the strength to suffer -- if that can be called strength. And Jack had the strength to wait -- though again, it's debatable whether "putting up" with something can be called strength. Patience, certainly.
But I do think Jack's strength shows in his willingness to let Ennis be, to prod him only in such a way as to not spook him entirely. His love certainly was strong... And come to think of it, he also had the strength to suffer -- if that can be called strength.
kathy
Thankls orangetruck.
It is fair to say that Ennis and jack saw each other imperfectly. But their imperfect understanding of the other didn't stop them from realizing that the other made himself more complete/perfect.
Thankls orangetruck.
It is fair to say that Ennis and jack saw each other imperfectly. But their imperfect understanding of the other didn't stop them from realizing that the other made himself more complete/perfect.
Thanks MPJ amd Tammy. :)
If, on one hand, they thought themselves perfect, there would have probably interpreted any difference between them as an imperfection on the part of the other. And yet, if each of them thought of themselves as imperfect and the other perfect, then they would have been intimidated to reach out, and perhaps would not have allowed the rlationship to go forard -- an idol always being too remote to make a lover. But because both of them saw tthemselves as imperfect and realized that one completed the other, we see a mutual and natural need spring forth between them. This accounts for the naturalness of their attraction to each other. There is no mistaking this to be other than a MUTUAL attraction. Both saw that the other was within reach, and they needed to reach out.
Thanks MPJ amd Tammy. :)
If, on one hand, they thought themselves perfect, there would have probably interpreted any difference between them as an imperfection on the part of the other. And yet, if each of them thought of themselves as imperfect and the other perfect, then they would have been intimidated to reach out, and perhaps would not have allowed the rlationship to go forard -- an idol always being too remote to make a lover. But because both of them saw tthemselves as imperfect and realized that one completed the other, we see a mutual and natural need spring forth between them. This accounts for the naturalness of their attraction to each other. There is no mistaking this to be other than a MUTUAL attraction. Both saw that the other was within reach, and they needed to reach out.
Thanks orangetruck. :)
We see more because we are all imperfect. It's not always a bad thing -- especially in the case of Ennis and Jack.
If, on one hand, they thought themselves perfect, there would have probably interpreted any difference between them as an imperfection on the part of the other. And yet, if each of them thought of themselves as imperfect and the other perfect, then they would have been intimidated to reach out, and perhaps would not have allowed the rlationship to go forard -- an idol always being too remote to make a lover. But because both of them saw tthemselves as imperfect and realized that one completed the other, we see a mutual and natural need spring forth between them. This accounts for the naturalness of their attraction to each other. There is no mistaking this to be other than a MUTUAL attraction. Both saw that the other was within reach, and they needed to reach out.
I'm way late in catching up here, but I love these most recent posts. ^f^
Yes I think you made your point well, Loreen. :)
Because the short story decribes both characters very differently from the way that Jake and Heath look (they were much plainer men in the original SS), I would be inclined to think that it was less about their physical appeal than the way they fit together, both as friends and as lovers. They each found a companion who respected him, someone they felt comfortable with at work as well as in play. And of course, I realize that just because AP's story describes them as somewhat plain, that doesn't mean they weren't attracted to each other superficially as well. My guess is each man thought the other was very attractive. I'm just inclined to think that wasn't the first thing that sparked the relationship.
Now that you ask the question though, it makes me think that I'd love to be able to hear their thoughts and how they saw each other in that way. You've got me thinking now. :)
I am not sure if my question is for opening a new thread, but I'll just post it here as the title of this thread fits, even if the author's explanation about the question "How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?2 is not what I have in mind.
So, I want to ask - did Ennis and Jack notice each other appearance features? How did they see each other in that sense? Did Ennis think that Jack's eyes were beautiful, or Jack that Ennis's smile is adorable and so on ....
They were very attractive young man, but mostly attached to each other because of some mental compatibility and physical attraction. They loved each other scent, strenght, jokes and a lot of little things that made them one soul.
But the beautiful things about their appearances - were those important to the other side or they just did not notice it?
Do you think that's important at all?
Hope I made my point... ^f^
. . . . more than the physical aspect of their relationship was the underlying emotional bond between them, the one that binds the reticent, fearful, duty-minded, lonely Ennis to the bravado, risk-taking, dreaming Jack. The non-physical aspect of their relationship makes the physical aspect the icing on the cake, so to speak. It is also why Ennis never found another man to love, because there was never another Jack. . . .
Just my two cents, for what's it worth.
I am not sure if my question is for opening a new thread, but I'll just post it here as the title of this thread fits, even if the author's explanation about the question "How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?2 is not what I have in mind.
So, I want to ask - did Ennis and Jack notice each other appearance features? How did they see each other in that sense? Did Ennis think that Jack's eyes were beautiful, or Jack that Ennis's smile is adorable and so on ....
They were very attractive young man, but mostly attached to each other because of some mental compatibility and physical attraction. They loved each other scent, strenght, jokes and a lot of little things that made them one soul.
But the beautiful things about their appearances - were those important to the other side or they just did not notice it?
Do you think that's important at all?
Hope I made my point... ^f^
I always wondered this too. The physical attraction between them. I feel it was just a part of the package as a whole. The icing on the cake. it does'nt hurt that they were both gorgeous, but one can be physically attractive yet be a total ass. I feel it was mutual, deep need for acceptance and understanding that allowed the relatonship to grow. Whatever ailed them, they found the cure in each other which went way beyond physical appearence. Completion in a much deeper sense. MO.