Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[orangetruck]

FIY and definitely OT:
The vehicle driver on the set - who was driving the semi (opening) and later "Ennis's" pickup, indicated in an interview that both were shot on same stretch of road, just days apart.

Swear, the art doesn't come to an end in this film, does it guys?
It just loops around and around, picking up little by little.
Kind of ironic that of all walks of life the stoic rolls away with the love of his life in his little brown paper sac.
 

Only now not so much the stoic. 

[jackster]

. . . the the stoic rolls away with the love of his life in his little brown paper sac. . . .

If ya got nuthin, ya don't need nuthin' . . .

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[orangetruck]

If ya got nuthin, ya don't need nuthin' . . .

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

I never could keep a straight face when I heard him say that. 

[manhattangirl]

"I'm nothin'",  "I'm nowhere",  "You ain't got nothin' you don't need nothin'"   This sums up Ennis's life.   Is this why he held on to Jack, because their love was all he had?    For twenty years this love occupied his life, he adjusted the way he lived his life around this love for Jack.

But was it at the final confrontation did Ennis understood this or  was it when Alma, Jr. came to visit.  Realization and understanding, the summing up of one's life.   Ennis like all us at some point in our lives have to face the reality of how we lived our lives and be at peace with it.

[tpe]

Yin/yang works in quiet ways, I'd say.

I think the 20 year trip and its finale was confirmation of such twilight. Or perhaps it was a 39 year old trip.  :\'(

 - the dawn being the inarticulate shadows in one another. Each had hoped to find what they felt in the other. It took Ennis 20 years after this fact to find it. 

O piteous Hearts, changing till change be dead
In a tumultuous song':
And cover the pale blossoms of your breast
With your dim heavy hair,
And trouble with a sigh for all things longing for rest
The odorous twilight there.

(Yeats)

[jackster]

"I'm nothin'", "I'm nowhere", "You ain't got nothin' you don't need nothin'"  Is this why he held on to Jack, because their love was all he had? 

IMHO - Yup.

But was it at the final confrontation did Ennis understood this or was it when Alma, Jr. came to visit. 

Again, IMHO- He became enlightened in Jack's closet, hence his penetrating question to Jr. later - "Does he love you?" He knew what it was (and how important it was) by then, it's why he hung the shirts, a symbol of his (and Jack's) love - he had had sumthin'.

[tpe]

  tpe  -  the reason has escaped me but the memory lingers on...  "without recourse to rationalism" is a perfect way to describe their love: intensely felt but not discussed.  Their love endures and Ennis's ability to love and know what it is increases.  He grows enough that we can see it - when he sniffs Alma, Jr.'s sweater before hanging it in the closet (while she's still alive) it is a sign IMO that he has graduated to adulthood, leaving 9 yr old Ennis back in the past where he's belonged since before we met Ennis - and although he will live lonely (for now?  -  he can only go up) and his closet is still bigger than all outdoors (or at least all he can see out the window), the window does have something golden growing all the way to the horizon, and and he can see the wind still makes the grasses shift like waves on the ocean.  Something's still flowing.
  (I can't tell you how many times I looked out that window before I knew what I was seeing.  As many times I tried to assure myself that there was some hope, some future, until I found it - so it may not be "really" there, but even then, giving that golden horizon some meaning does take some of the sting out.  We are at least allowed to think that one of them endures in the light they created together.)
  As long as Ennis "lets a panel of the dream slide forward," Jack will never die.  As long as they are remembered, they will live on.


Just reading your posts tpe, orangetruck, it struck me -the film does open in darkness and evolve toward the full daylight of the ending...

Thanks, zephK.  For me, there is definitely a note of endurance in the ending, even as the shadows lengthen indefinitely. 

AS to your description of their love, I guess you propound here a challenge to the initial subject of this thread.  Perhaps it should not ask how Ennis and Jack saw in each other; rather, we should ask how Ennis and Jack felt for each other.  Because their understanding of each other was probably imperfect and irrational, it only made it all the more grounded on unuttered feeling.  In feeling, they "knew".  It is in the realm of feeling that they came to understand each other and see what they most admired in each other. 

[tpe]

Again, IMHO- He became enlightened in Jack's closet, hence his penetrating question to Jr. later - "Does he love you?" He knew what it was (and how important it was) by then, it's why he hung the shirts, a symbol of his (and Jack's) love - he had had sumthin'.

Yes, he had understood at last what he had, and clung to what was left...  Jack would have been so moved.

[orangetruck]

Again, IMHO- He became enlightened in Jack's closet, hence his penetrating question to Jr. later - "Does he love you?" He knew what it was (and how important it was) by then, it's why he hung the shirts, a symbol of his (and Jack's) love - he had had sumthin'.

Ditto.

[chameau]

If you don't mind Brokies, this is very interesting but for a while now this thread is going off topic. 

If you could please stick to the subject:  How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

Thank you! 

[aintfoolin]

If you don't mind Brokies, this is very interesting but for a while now this thread is going off topic. 

If you could please stick to the subject:  How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

Thank you! 

Thank you Cham.

[aintfoolin]

I was watching the scene today where Ennis returns to the camp after the bear incident. Jack is not a happy camper at Ennis's absence. He is worried of course but he reminded me of the wife waiting at the door with a rolling pin ready to clobber the husband who had stayed out to late drinking with the boys!   ( Ennis was pretty ornery himself at the moment) This scene to me shows how Jack felt about Ennis  in the early stages and imo, shows the first inklings of romantic feelings he had for Ennis. He wanted an explaination, but when he saw Ennis's injuries, his whole disposition changed. His nurturing side kicked in and he nursed the wounds which during  which * touch* was brought into play.
  Jack seemed unsure how Ennis was going to react to his touch, and as Ennis took the cloth from Jack, their fingers touch. This tender moment struck me as Jack establishing a "closeness"  to Ennis that I'd never seen up to this point. Then he gets a little closer by sitting on the same log with him, though hesitantly like he was'nt sure Ennis would accept him doing it.
The next scene Ennis shoots the deer, and Jack intoduces *touch* again though playfully shoving him and leaning in close to joke to Ennis about getting caught. This time Ennis touches back, Next they are shown sitting together chowing down on the elk on the same log together. Does any one else follow what to me is a sense of * closeness* and touching Ennis physically being established  on Jack's part.  Ennis becomes more comfortable with the closeness and never sat more than an arm's length away from Jack again.

[ksxks]

Nice post, aintfoolin.  This is indeed an important aspect to their getting close, that Ennis become comfortable with Jack's touch -- and yes, it is Jack doing the touching in the beginning.  Just casual touch became acceptable, and the sitting closer to each other.  So their eventually physical closeness didn't come out of nowhere.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

 In SNIT we see Ennis enter the tent, kneel down in front of Jack, but his eyes spell a hesitance. He is close but though it is subtle , Ennis inches closer and closer to Jack like he was gonna initiate the kiss, but could'nt quite bring himself to do it. By this time though, Jack had it figured and initiated the kiss himself. I melt every time I watch this, gawd it's SO romantic.

[tpe]

Nice post, aintfoolin.  This is indeed an important aspect to their getting close, that Ennis become comfortable with Jack's touch -- and yes, it is Jack doing the touching in the beginning.  Just casual touch became acceptable, and the sitting closer to each other.  So their eventually physical closeness didn't come out of nowhere.

kathy

Yes, this was most important. 

I should also note that in the FNIT, it was Jack who insisted on tactile contact.

[ksxks]

In SNIT we see Ennis enter the tent, kneel down in front of Jack, but his eyes spell a hesitance. He is close but though it is subtle , Ennis inches closer and closer to Jack like he was gonna initiate the kiss, but could'nt quite bring himself to do it. By this time though, Jack had it figured and initiated the kiss himself. I melt every time I watch this, gawd it's SO romantic.

Oh, I love how you describe this!  Very beautiful.  So true, how Ennis moves closer, closer, putting himself there so close and maybe wanting Jack to take the lead, but probably if Jack hadn't, I can almost picture Ennis initiating the kiss.  Romantic is right...

kathy

[myprivatejack]

Your posts are so romantic that I´m melting¡  IMO, as they become closer in mental and psychologically senses,they look for and like the phisycal proximity and,little by little,the contact.
They began by creating a great friendship because both of them needed the tenderness and affection they hardly had when children and they found a boy of their age who ,while listening to their problems,made come out to the surface the best of both of them-as if in Ennis´case,when he became more talkative with Jack that never before-.And when you give someone trust,affection and company,the closeness in every sense is more than probable.

[tpe]

Your posts are so romantic that I´m melting¡  IMO, as they become closer in mental and psychologically senses,they look for and like the phisycal proximity and,little by little,the contact.
They began by creating a great friendship because both of them needed the tenderness and affection they hardly had when children and they found a boy of their age who ,while listening to their problems,made come out to the surface the best of both of them-as if in Ennis´case,when he became more talkative with Jack that never before-.And when you give someone trust,affection and company,the closeness in every sense is more than probable.

Yes, I think a lot came before that first touch.    Sometimes, I think by the time this happened, how they saw each other was perhaps completely formed.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I think a lot came before that first touch.    Sometimes, I think by the time this happened, how they saw each other was perhaps completely formed.

Sorry,but my bad English laughs at me very often...;I don´t understand exactly what you mean in your post.Could you explain it to me,please?

[aintfoolin]

Yes, I think a lot came before that first touch.    Sometimes, I think by the time this happened, how they saw each other was perhaps completely formed.

Ennis must have remembered in the previous encounter or was aware that Jack wanted and tried to kiss him then. IMO opinion, kissing is a lot more intimate act. He must have had very strong feelings for Jack if he was willing, though hesitant to let go like this. Ennis seemed as if he felt really free. I imagine how suprised  Jack was, yet delighted. In FNIT, had enough *clues*  and insight into Ennis's secret desires and took the inititive, but in SNIT , it was Ennis who not only discovered  that Jack became a part of him that night and v/v  but explained it to Jack in SNIT in his own  shy sexy way. I felt lucky for Jack and I love watching their love unfold this way on both their part. MO

[tpe]

Ennis must have remembered in the previous encounter or was aware that Jack wanted and tried to kiss him then. IMO opinion, kissing is a lot more intimate act. He must have had very strong feelings for Jack if he was willing, though hesitant to let go like this. Ennis seemed as if he felt really free. I imagine how suprised  Jack was, yet delighted. In FNIT, had enough *clues*  and insight into Ennis's secret desires and took the inititive, but in SNIT , it was Ennis who not only discovered  that Jack became a part of him that night and v/v  but explained it to Jack in SNIT in his own  shy sexy way. I felt lucky for Jack and I love watching their love unfold this way on both their part. MO

Exactly, aintfoolin.  Perfectly said.  The fact that Ennis allowed this kiss then speaks volumes.

[aintfoolin]

tpe: I know I’m way off from what most people see here. But to me, if your 19, poor (in Ennis’s case dirt poor), and think yourself a heterosexual male I don’t think the first time you see another man outside the employment office where you’re going to get a job (probably the only job around) I don’t see that you're first thinkin’ “Man he’s hot, how can I get to know Him?”. Yeah, in the case of Jack, due to his “priors” he may have been thinking that somewhere along the line while waiting. But I don’t think it would have even occurred to Ennis, he’s to concerned with gettin’ a paying job so as to have something to eat and ‘course he’s thinking ‘bout Alma in November. IMHO what a lot of folks see as courtship at this early point I see as bravado and scoping out or bluffing the competition.

BUT, this quickly changes inside the trailer when they find out their gonna’ be companions NOT competitors. The glances inside the trailer begin to show that friendly “hmmm, check him out look”. That’s one of the things I love about BBM, it takes so many quick subtle turns like this, so many places where the story could have easily been entirely different except for fate. As soon as they knew they were gonna’ be mates then they started trying to prove they were worthy as you say with the stories in the bar and stuff.

jackster

I agree with every thing you say here , but don't you think that the way Jack * displayed* himself  that morning across the truck left a lasting impression on Ennis from th beginning? I mean this was not the usaal manner for a  guy to behave especially in Ennis's world at the time. These opening scenes still fascinate me with Jack almost openly preening  himself across the truck lke this?  As i think back to when I first saw this scene, I felt then that it was Jack who would initiate the first move in this thing. I was right. To me, this was a  very * inviting*  clue  from the competition, striking this pose early on.  What was Ennis really reading into when Jack did this as he took a peek from underneath that cowboy hat.!  No, I'm not Ennis, but  as a woman, if upon first seeing Jack or any other  guy who does this, I'd definitly read more into this burning stare and *open* interest in what I'm doing there than just another person, scoping out the competition for a job. With Ennis's limited  ( but latent) knowledge of homosexuality,  I think he secretly *went there* in his mind finding Jack sexually attractive , or is this just my imagination that ran wild? Just thinkin.

[lightnin flat]

     I think ennis saw jack as someone who would keep him safe even though ennis knew if they did get a ranch and live together he was worried that they wouldnt be safe ,but safe in the knowledge that if  ennis needed jack at any time he would be there for him.         
    I think jack saw ennis as someone who needed  to be taken care of and jack was going to be the one to do that given half the chance .To me jack saw vulnerability in ennis.

                                      But god did they love each other. 

[manhattangirl]

I agree with every thing you say here , but don't you think that the way Jack * displayed* himself  that morning across the truck left a lasting impression on Ennis from th beginning? I mean this was not the usaal manner for a  guy to behave especially in Ennis's world at the time. These opening scenes still fascinate me with Jack almost openly preening  himself across the truck lke this?  As i think back to when I first saw this scene, I felt then that it was Jack who would initiate the first move in this thing. I was right. To me, this was a  very * inviting*  clue  from the competition, striking this pose early on.  What was Ennis really reading into when Jack did this as he took a peek from underneath that cowboy hat.!  No, I'm not Ennis, but  as a woman, if upon first seeing Jack or any other  guy who does this, I'd definitly read more into this burning stare and *open* interest in what I'm doing there than just another person, scoping out the competition for a job. With Ennis's limited  ( but latent) knowledge of homosexuality,  I think he secretly *went there* in his mind finding Jack sexually attractive , or is this just my imagination that ran wild? Just thinkin.

Anitfoolin this makes sense to me:

The scene after leaving Aguirre's trailer on the way to the bar, Ennis did follow behind Jack.  Jack walking upright confident, Ennis with his has in pockets his head down.  To me Ennis seem to submit himself to Jack, at that moment.    As time on the mountain went by Jack's skills weren't at the level of his confidence was but Ennis didn't mind it, they began to compensate for the other.   Not only to survive up there, but to please each other, take care of each other. 

They found in each other what each man needed from the outside world and couldn't find.  Not knowing consciously, that's why leaving each other was so hard for both, sadness in Jack, physically ripping Ennis's insides. 

[jackster]

I agree with every thing you say here , but don't you think that the way Jack * displayed* himself  that morning across the truck left a lasting impression on Ennis from th beginning? I mean this was not the usaal manner for a  guy to behave especially in Ennis's world at the time. These opening scenes still fascinate me with Jack almost openly preening  himself across the truck lke this?  As i think back to when I first saw this scene, I felt then that it was Jack who would initiate the first move in this thing. I was right. To me, this was a  very * inviting*  clue  from the competition, striking this pose early on.  What was Ennis really reading into when Jack did this as he took a peek from underneath that cowboy hat.!  No, I'm not Ennis, but  as a woman, if upon first seeing Jack or any other  guy who does this, I'd definitly read more into this burning stare and *open* interest in what I'm doing there than just another person, scoping out the competition for a job. With Ennis's limited  ( but latent) knowledge of homosexuality,  I think he secretly *went there* in his mind finding Jack sexually attractive , or is this just my imagination that ran wild? Just thinkin.

Yes, there is truth to what you say here. It is a fine line between a man showing “bravado” and “preening” himself for display, they may be the same; a lot depends on the intended “receiver”. Power and sex / sex and power, a potent mix. Jack had been here before, knew Aguirre, knew what was awaiting him, so he was displaying the confidence that this familiarity allows. And being cocky Jack, he was gonna’ use this confidence to his advantage if he could and I think it shows, he wanted it to show. He felt he had the upper hand here (and for several days) believing Ennis was something of a “lightweight” re: his response to Ennis’s caution about the horse’s startle point, etc. Jack had “been around” rodeoing and such and felt himself pretty worldly compared to this local boy. To start with he had a truck, Ennis did not, a BIG leg up in ‘63. Not until he got to know Ennis did he realize (respect, and eventually love) the solid depth of this man.

This is a long way of say yes, I agree that the way Jack showed his cards leaning against the truck was meant to, and did, leave an impression on Ennis. But I think it was more Jack trying to say with body language “Hey, I’m hot shit here so don’t go trying to horn into my job here”. I think the intent was to bluff Ennis so as to get the better position if that was possible. In the teenage male world sex is an important part of almost everything you do so it overshadows almost everything, including posing while just hanging around waiting. But I can’t see a peek or even stare under the hat by another man as being seen as a sexual announcement in small town WY in ’63. IMO it’s too alien for the place and time. Now, that look to woman, yes definitely, but for a man it would be too risky (as Jack learned 20 yrs later).

Like so many parts of this film this one scene is so wonderfully crafted and acted I can watch it over and over and over to see all the little nuances in Jack’s face and eyes, in Ennis’s nervous toying with the paper sack. Wonderful every time.

[lamusica]

Kudos to jackster!

[aintfoolin]

 Jackster,

 Thanks for your interpretation from a male point of view.  To me it's very helpful.I have watched these scenes over and over for what as you describe, the nuances and expressions from both of them. I suppose people interpret lots of things differently in the film , seeing the action as we see fit, but in scenes such as this one and others too, it is good to recieve points of view from both genders. It shines more insight into how we as human beings see the inner workings of how they really saw each other. Again  :t)alot.

[jackster]

. . . I suppose people interpret lots of things differently in the film, seeing the action as we see fit, but in scenes such as this one and others too, it is good to recieve points of view from both genders. It shines more insight into how we as human beings see the inner workings of how they really saw each other. . . .

You bet. This, as you have well said here ain't, is to me one of the great depths of this great film. Its ability to "speak" several different languages at the same time. No instruction manual needed.

[ksxks]

Kudos to jackster!

Agreed, jackster.  An insightful look into those first moments.  I have never really seen that as sexual per se, Jack's posturing.  More like just what you said, the 1963 small town young men displaying what they saw as their place.

Manhattangirl, I also loved what you said, that it soon became clear what strengths and weaknesses each of them had, and they worked it out together perfectly.  Each enjoyed the other's traits.

kathy

[lancecowboy]

He absolutely was. And I think Ennis finally realized it too late, after Jack was gone and nothing could be done. But before that, he was locked in his own self-denial and fear. I don't think he even allowed himself to admit that what they had was love, classic romantic love. He clung to his "You know I ain't queer" mantra like a protective coat. And tried, I think, to mold his idea of Jack to fit that same frame. If he thought of Jack as gay, he'd have to entertain the possibility that he was gay too. And that was something he wasn't able to do.

I think he thought of Jack as his best friend. As the one person he felt like 'himself' with. As the one person he could be free with. And certainly he was drawn to Jack physically. But I don't think he allowed himself to acknowledge his love for Jack, even just to himself, in the same way that I think Jack knew how he felt about Ennis.

In spite of all that, he did make remarkable sacrifices to be with Jack. Quitting jobs and living a spartan lifestyle to be able to accomodate a regular meeting schedule. And more than that, living with the constant fear of people 'knowing' about him just by looking at him. He was fighting against a lifetime of conditioning and did the best he could.

As to Jack, I think he was just a more impulsive, follow the heart kind of person. He wanted a life with Ennis but accepted the conditions because he wanted whatever time they could have together. And I think, as evidenced by the post-divorce scene, that for a long time he thought that eventually that might happen. After the cold water got poured on that idea, he was just in too deep to walk away.

Either way, they sustained a loving relationship for 20 years. Even with all of their heartache and lost chances, that is one heck of an accomplishment.

FlwrChild, I love what you said here. Ennis and Jack were best friends drawn into the passion, and love that was a force of nature. Jack followed his heart, and if Ennis had, too, they would have lived happily ever after. But circumstance and social injustice made Ennis felt he could not accept it, following his heart. They both made sacrifices for 20 years to sustain this almost impossible relationship. How many long-distance romances do we know that last more than 2 or ten years, much less 20.

I don't think Jack wanted the romance to end, but he accepted the conditions that made it near impossible. He took Ennis' shirt because he wanted to remember that summer, not knowing if they'd be together again. He went back the next summer, hoping to see Ennis again, even put up with the potential (and real) ridicule from Aguirre to show his interest in Ennis. He sent the first postcard general delivery. He went to ten different people to find out where Ennis moved to after the divorce. He'd drive fourteen hours three four times a year, in the days when highways were not that great, and cars weren't all that comfortable (not o mention pickups). He was in deep that moment by the camp fire when Ennis spoke more words than in a year.

I think Jack needed someone who accepts him the way Ennis did, unlike his old man. To be accepted as openly as Ennis accepted Jack was a powerful potion for returning the feelings.