Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[aintfoolin]

Jack's love did live on in his dreams but when he woke, the pain of the realization that  he could've have Jack with him alive and well had to fill him with devastation.  Ennis had to live with the fact that it was he and he alone who kept Jack from ultimate happiness by not at least trying to disspell his fears . He learned to late that Jack loved him without conditions and left the shirts to show that. By leaving the shirts showed that he respcted Ennis's fears that in case anything ever happened to him, (tireirons) Ennis would know that Jack's was " tuned in" to Ennis's fears and was listening to him In other words Jack had all bases covered for Ennis. The shirts spoke volumes about Jack's love that he left them there for Ennis and in cooperation with his moms they conspired to prove Jack's love even after his death.. I can't imagine the guilt Ennis felt not to mention the loss and pain. So sad.

[manhattangirl]

The shirts themselves were a key to Jack.  He stole Ennis's shirt after the fight the last day on Brokeback.  He kept them during the four years they weren't together.  He had them when he went searching for Ennis, and kept them all the years after the reunion.  He bonded himself to Ennis all his life.   When it wasn't physical it was spiritual.  I believe he had no intentions of Ennis ever seeing them, nor do I think Jack believe Ennis would ever understand the meaning of it. 

Ennis's "one shot thing" mentality, forced Jack in many ways to go underground with what he wanted to tell Ennis, until the final confrontation, and even then he only told so much.

Ennis was a walking contradiction.  He never reconciled himself to idea of Jack, being a man, him loving him, his raw sexual need for him, and above all his inability to let him go, but keeping him at a distance he could handle.  How in the heck did they keep from killing each other?   

[jackster]

The shirts themselves were a key to Jack. 
He stole Ennis's shirt after the fight the last day on Brokeback. 
He kept it during the four years they weren't together.

Of course Jack had his demons too. Remember, for all that these shirts meant to him he kept them up in Lightning Flat, "hidden" in the back corner of his boyhood closet. He keep them where all his other childhood dreams were stored, away from his "everyday" life with Lurleen and Bobby. It was like a fantasy life that he never realized, as one's childhood toys and dreams often represent.

jackster

[manhattangirl]

Of course Jack had his demons too. Remember, for all that these shirts meant to him he kept them up in Lightning Flat, "hidden" in the back corner of his boyhood closet. He keep them where all his other childhood dreams were stored, away from his "everyday" life with Lurleen and Bobby. It was like a fantasy life that he never realized, as one's childhood toys and dreams often represent.

jackster

His childhood dreams?   In what life do you think Jack were playing "let's pretend", Ennis or Lureen?  He kept the shirts in place where only his mother, knew it's meaning.  A place where the real Jack lived, remember his wife or child never been there.  His life outside of LF the fantasy.   Jack fell in love with someone who also was living in his own "Let's pretend" world, but fought tooth and nail to stay in it.    After his death what was the only real thing between them, beside their love? 

[lamusica]

I may be OT here, but I don't really think so.  Forgive me if I am.  But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such.  They were friends.  They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another.  Granted, they acted out these feelings in very different ways.
However, I do NOT like the new forum banner for this exact reason.  It does not stay true to Ennis and Jack's view of one another.  (I'm not a fan of manips in any form, really, so that may be why I have reacted so strongly to this banner.)  Jack would not have looked at Ennis as he is in this manip, in my opinion, and he was NOT Ennis's little darling like Alma was.  I find this banner disturbing and untrue to their real relationship.  As I said, this is just my opinion, but I felt I had to say it.

[manhattangirl]

I may be OT here, but I don't really think so.  Forgive me if I am.  But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such.  They were friends.  They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another.  Granted, they acted out these feelings in very different ways.
However, I do NOT like the new forum banner for this exact reason.  It does not stay true to Ennis and Jack's view of one another.  (I'm not a fan of manips in any form, really, so that may be why I have reacted so strongly to this banner.)  Jack would not have looked at Ennis as he is in this manip, in my opinion, and he was NOT Ennis's little darling like Alma was.  I find this banner disturbing and untrue to their real relationship.  As I said, this is just my opinion, but I felt I had to say it.

IMO:

I may be OT too, but I really don't like this new banner.  I too believe this not how they looked at each other. 

[manhattangirl]

This is OT, but thank you for the banner change.  I love this one. 

[tpe]

Ennis was a walking contradiction.  He never reconciled himself to idea of Jack, being a man, him loving him, his raw sexual need for him, and above all his inability to let him go, but keeping him at a distance he could handle.  How in the heck did they keep from killing each other?   

I think Ennis saw Jack in a similar way he saw himself: his innate homophobia hated himself and Jack for being and feeling the way they were.  But I think he did love Jack in spite of this because it affirmed a core element in Ennis's nature.  Jack was like a mirror to Ennis.  Through Jack, Ennis got to know himself better. 

[tpe]

Of course Jack had his demons too. Remember, for all that these shirts meant to him he kept them up in Lightning Flat, "hidden" in the back corner of his boyhood closet. He keep them where all his other childhood dreams were stored, away from his "everyday" life with Lurleen and Bobby. It was like a fantasy life that he never realized, as one's childhood toys and dreams often represent.

jackster

This is a wonderful observation, jackster.  Tahnk you so much for sharing this with us.

[tpe]

I may be OT here, but I don't really think so.  Forgive me if I am.  But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such.  They were friends.  They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another.  Granted, they acted out these feelings in very different ways.
However, I do NOT like the new forum banner for this exact reason.  It does not stay true to Ennis and Jack's view of one another.  (I'm not a fan of manips in any form, really, so that may be why I have reacted so strongly to this banner.)  Jack would not have looked at Ennis as he is in this manip, in my opinion, and he was NOT Ennis's little darling like Alma was.  I find this banner disturbing and untrue to their real relationship.  As I said, this is just my opinion, but I felt I had to say it.

I guess I missed the banner change this weekend...

IN any case, I appreciate your voicing your opinion lamusica.  And it was NOT OT: you said this in a way that tied it to the discussion of how Ennis and Jack viewed each other. Your objection was clearly based on how you viewed their relationship.

[lamusica]

I hope I didn't offend whoever created the previous banner, but it's the only banner that ever affected me either way.  All the others were interesting , and some were beautiful.  The newest one is great.

[welshwitch]

Sometimes I think it's true that if you love someone you don't really see tham at all - they just are. Then hearing what someone else says about them or seeing them in an unfamiliar situation, can give you a jolt. But Jack and Ennis rarely saw each other outside their usual limits, and perhaps went on seeing one another as they always had, right up to that last scene together.

[jackster]

But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such.  They were friends.  They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another.

I agree very much lamusica, I would only also add RESPECTED one another. Just goin' back to the first paragraph of the SS:
"They were raised on small, poor ranches in opposite corners of the state, . . . . both high school drop out country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough mannered, rough spoken, inured to the stoic life."

Pair a' duces goin' nowhere. My feeling was that they both had that view of their collective life situations. Jack was "desperate to be anywhere but Lightning Flat" so he was more driven to get out, I never felt that Ennis didn't like where he was, - he just didn't much like who he was.

jackster

[aintfoolin]

Well, Jack did make it out of LF where Ennis never left WY. This is not doubt part of Ennis's problems remaining a closed person . It was only his sense of responsibility as a man after the prospect of getting married did he hitch a ride to Signal to find work to support himself and his wife. Jack, being on the rodeo curcuit for awhile saw the world differently due to apparent social interactions with many people, some no doubt from other surrounding areas and maybe other states too. I suppose this contributed to Jack's  more open personality . In his travels he must have met many different people. Having a vehicle also gave him an advantage allowing him to travel. Fate intervening, they met seeking the job at Agurirre's trialor.When Jack first spooted Ennis, he seemed to realize that this was someone who was like himself yet very different in many ways too. When he took a few steps torward  Ennis as if he was gonna say something to Ennis, stared, then walked away back to his truck( then stuck that seductive pose against the truck) , I felt he was interested in Ennis . Another telling example of Jack's * preference*  But Ennis's body language told Jack that Ennis maybe was not.It was Jack's careful insight into Ennis's closed, shy manner that allowed him access into this *wounded* soul of Ennis gaining freindship and trust. I still wonder though how Ennis really saw Jack? Did he see Jack as *queer* in his mind ? Apparently he had some idea of what that meant evidenced by his statement after FNIT. And it was Jack who made the first physical move. He grew to love Jack deeply yet denied he was the same. It's complicated.

[jackster]

When Jack first spoted Ennis, he seemed to realize that this was someone who was like himself yet very different in many ways too. When he took a few steps torward Ennis as if he was gonna say something to Ennis, stared, then walked away back to his truck (then stuck that seductive pose against the truck), I felt he was interested in Ennis. Another telling example of Jack's * preference* 

My take on this first Jack/Ennis interaction has always been a bit different than most. Like you, I think they saw themselves as pretty much equals, but because of this I've always seen Jack's first reaction to Ennis as one of a competitor, "Shit! Another guy beat me here for this f**kin' job!" I feel he was pissed 'cause he didn't get there first and Ennis had "staked out" the territory by the door so as to be the first in line. How was he (or Ennis) to know there were two jobs? I can even see Jack thinkin' (while slouching against his truck) maybe he sould take off and try and find something else. To me their furtive glances were checking each other out primarily as job competitors and not so much as sex objects. 'Course they were horny teenagers so that's always in the hormonal mix. I think when Jack came out of the trailer and he knew they BOTH had jobs he was much relived, and even more excited to know he was going to be spending the summer with this hunk up on the mountain. Hence, let's go get drunk! Just MHO

jackster

[aintfoolin]

And remember, Jack had worked the mountain before that previous summer so he probably  felt he had the advantage although Aquirre chided him about the dead sheep. I think Jack was taken by suprise to see this gourgeous guy standin there. This was his competition for the job I agree but do you think that Jack would just let  Ennis walk away ,never getting to know who this guy was if Ennis got the job over him? I don't think so. Luckily there were 2 jobs to Jack's delight I'm sure.

[tpe]

Well, Jack did make it out of LF where Ennis never left WY. This is not doubt part of Ennis's problems remaining a closed person . It was only his sense of responsibility as a man after the prospect of getting married did he hitch a ride to Signal to find work to support himself and his wife. Jack, being on the rodeo curcuit for awhile saw the world differently due to apparent social interactions with many people, some no doubt from other surrounding areas and maybe other states too. I suppose this contributed to Jack's  more open personality . In his travels he must have met many different people. Having a vehicle also gave him an advantage allowing him to travel. Fate intervening, they met seeking the job at Agurirre's trialor.When Jack first spooted Ennis, he seemed to realize that this was someone who was like himself yet very different in many ways too. When he took a few steps torward  Ennis as if he was gonna say something to Ennis, stared, then walked away back to his truck( then stuck that seductive pose against the truck) , I felt he was interested in Ennis . Another telling example of Jack's * preference*  But Ennis's body language told Jack that Ennis maybe was not.It was Jack's careful insight into Ennis's closed, shy manner that allowed him access into this *wounded* soul of Ennis gaining freindship and trust. I still wonder though how Ennis really saw Jack? Did he see Jack as *queer* in his mind ? Apparently he had some idea of what that meant evidenced by his statement after FNIT. And it was Jack who made the first physical move. He grew to love Jack deeply yet denied he was the same. It's complicated.

This reminds me of the old thread of what made Jack love Ennis.

I agree that Jack had special insight into Ennis's brokenness.  Perhaps in a way, Jack also shared a similar brokenness.  Jack of course reacted differently -- he was always the rider as much as Ennis was an island.  But I think Jack did see in Ennis a person in need of healing, and it is tribute to his gentle nature that although broken himself, he sought to mend the two by the presence and appreciation of the other.

[tpe]

My take on this first Jack/Ennis interaction has always been a bit different than most. Like you, I think they saw themselves as pretty much equals, but because of this I've always seen Jack's first reaction to Ennis as one of a competitor, "Shit! Another guy beat me here for this f**kin' job!" I feel he was pissed 'cause he didn't get there first and Ennis had "staked out" the territory by the door so as to be the first in line. How was he (or Ennis) to know there were two jobs? I can even see Jack thinkin' (while slouching against his truck) maybe he sould take off and try and find something else. To me their furtive glances were checking each other out primarily as job competitors and not so much as sex objects. 'Course they were horny teenagers so that's always in the hormonal mix. I think when Jack came out of the trailer and he knew they BOTH had jobs he was much relived, and even more excited to know he was going to be spending the summer with this hunk up on the mountain. Hence, let's go get drunk! Just MHO

jackster

Interesting point of view jackster.  I admit that I didn't see it as competitive in the beginning.  I had thought it similar to an awkward "courtship".  But courtship is certainly a manifestation of some competition, I guess.  They sought to prove that each was worthy of the other.

[jackster]

I had thought it similar to an awkward "courtship" . . . They sought to prove that each was worthy of the other.

tpe: I know I’m way off from what most people see here. But to me, if your 19, poor (in Ennis’s case dirt poor), and think yourself a heterosexual male I don’t think the first time you see another man outside the employment office where you’re going to get a job (probably the only job around) I don’t see that you're first thinkin’ “Man he’s hot, how can I get to know Him?”. Yeah, in the case of Jack, due to his “priors” he may have been thinking that somewhere along the line while waiting. But I don’t think it would have even occurred to Ennis, he’s to concerned with gettin’ a paying job so as to have something to eat and ‘course he’s thinking ‘bout Alma in November. IMHO what a lot of folks see as courtship at this early point I see as bravado and scoping out or bluffing the competition.

BUT, this quickly changes inside the trailer when they find out their gonna’ be companions NOT competitors. The glances inside the trailer begin to show that friendly “hmmm, check him out look”. That’s one of the things I love about BBM, it takes so many quick subtle turns like this, so many places where the story could have easily been entirely different except for fate. As soon as they knew they were gonna’ be mates then they started trying to prove they were worthy as you say with the stories in the bar and stuff.

jackster

[aintfoolin]

I feel on Ennis's part it might have been both. He wanted and needed the job, but I continue to beleive Ennis's homosexual tendencies were as Webster's dictionary describes as *latent* , present, but not visualized or actualized . I beleive they were there. Along with competition for the job, I think that Ennis was struck by Jack's openess. He knew at a young age what "gay" was, unfortunatley it was shown to him as something negative and *bad* and therefore, buried this part of his sexuality, but when he saw Jack, I feel he saw himself attracted from the beginning. I think he recognized the reaction in some relation to what Earl and Ray must have felt, his only example known to him about the subject. He dared not let on to Jack that he was gay in any way or had feelings bureid inside for another man, but I think he sensed it  when he saw  Jack. Instead he allowed himself to be led  through a process by Jack into a freindship, which grew into a trusted companionship  and ultimatly a emotional and physical realization of those *latent* feelings.IMO.

[tpe]

tpe: I know I’m way off from what most people see here. But to me, if your 19, poor (in Ennis’s case dirt poor), and think yourself a heterosexual male I don’t think the first time you see another man outside the employment office where you’re going to get a job (probably the only job around) I don’t see that you're first thinkin’ “Man he’s hot, how can I get to know Him?”. Yeah, in the case of Jack, due to his “priors” he may have been thinking that somewhere along the line while waiting. But I don’t think it would have even occurred to Ennis, he’s to concerned with gettin’ a paying job so as to have something to eat and ‘course he’s thinking ‘bout Alma in November. IMHO what a lot of folks see as courtship at this early point I see as bravado and scoping out or bluffing the competition.

BUT, this quickly changes inside the trailer when they find out their gonna’ be companions NOT competitors. The glances inside the trailer begin to show that friendly “hmmm, check him out look”. That’s one of the things I love about BBM, it takes so many quick subtle turns like this, so many places where the story could have easily been entirely different except for fate. As soon as they knew they were gonna’ be mates then they started trying to prove they were worthy as you say with the stories in the bar and stuff.

jackster

What you say is certainly plausible, at least for Ennis, outside the trailer.   I would think that Ennis's unsocial behavior was natural enough under those circumstances.  But I still can't help thinking that there must have been some ill-understood attraction even then.  Ennis's look was far from hostile.  If anything, it can be described as coy.  Lonely people are apt to hide their need to connect, and I suspect that this was partly at play when Ennis first met Jack outside the trailer.

 

[tpe]

I feel on Ennis's part it might have been both. He wanted and needed the job, but I continue to beleive Ennis's homosexual tendencies were as Webster's dictionary describes as *latent* , present, but not visualized or actualized . I beleive they were there. Along with competition for the job, I think that Ennis was struck by Jack's openess. He knew at a young age what "gay" was, unfortunatley it was shown to him as something negative and *bad* and therefore, buried this part of his sexuality, but when he saw Jack, I feel he saw himself attracted from the beginning. I think he recognized the reaction in some relation to what Earl and Ray must have felt, his only example known to him about the subject. He dared not let on to Jack that he was gay in any way or had feelings bureid inside for another man, but I think he sensed it  when he saw  Jack. Instead he allowed himself to be led  through a process by Jack into a freindship, which grew into a trusted companionship  and ultimatly a emotional and physical realization of those *latent* feelings.IMO.

This is a nice way of putting it, aintfoolin.  And you found the right word: "latent" attraction.  This is what I meant when I referred to an ill-understood attraction.

[chameau]

I may be OT here, but I don't really think so.  Forgive me if I am.  But I think Jack and Ennis were equals and saw each other as such.  They were friends.  They liked one another,as well as desired and loved one another.  Granted, they acted out these feelings in very different ways.
However, I do NOT like the new forum banner for this exact reason.  It does not stay true to Ennis and Jack's view of one another.  (I'm not a fan of manips in any form, really, so that may be why I have reacted so strongly to this banner.)  Jack would not have looked at Ennis as he is in this manip, in my opinion, and he was NOT Ennis's little darling like Alma was.  I find this banner disturbing and untrue to their real relationship.  As I said, this is just my opinion, but I felt I had to say it.

Jack knew he loved Ennis but Ennis was never ready to admit it to himself until it was too late... IMO. 

OT about the banner some members complained about it,  and it was decided to go back to the previous one.  The reactions were the same as yours lamusica.  thanks for the feedback and end of OT.

[lamusica]

Here again, the difference between the SS and the film is critical to our interpretations of how much Ennis loved Jack and whether or not he admitted it to himself.  In the SS, I think it is much clearer that Ennis did own up to having feelings for Jack ( motel scene), but the film leaves us high and dry on that point.  So, to flesh out Ennis ( for me), I have to think of him as Annie wrote him.  While Ennis did not act or react to love in the same way as Jack, he did love Jack and Jack knew it.  It was Jack who, although he loved Ennis, did not find it too difficult to go with other men.  Ennis  would not have grieved as he did had he not loved Jack enormously.  Could Ennis have ever completely cut himself off from Jack?  I don't think so.  So, I find it hard to think that Jack could have completely left Ennis.  Just MHO.

[manhattangirl]

In the film, for me, you have to watch Ennis's actions and reactions.   From the first summer to the time he got the  returned postcard.  Ennis was a character you had to read the signs, a little more than listen to his words, I may not be clear.   

You see him open up to Jack in little ways, ways you have to watch for despite of his declaration of not being "queer".  Being stunted emotionally by his father, the lost of his parent, being shove from sister to brother, and  finally alone, no one ask him about how he felt, what he wanted, so he kept quiet.   

He loved Jack, Jack was the only person he really loved.   You have to look at what happened in his life, the events in his life to see that Jack was it for him.  Everything in Ennis's  life centered around Jack.    The very sad part is that he couldn't reconcile himself  to it, until it was too late. 

[jackster]

Here again, the difference between the SS and the film is critical to our interpretations of how much Ennis loved Jack and whether or not he admitted it to himself. . . . So, to flesh out Ennis (for me), I have to think of him as Annie wrote him . . . . Ennis  would not have grieved as he did had he not loved Jack enormously . . . I find it hard to think that Jack could have completely left Ennis.

lamusica - I think you've really laid it out very succinctly here. The SS vs. Film portrayals create a bit of conflict when trying to see Ennis as the same person. And I agree completely that Ennis (in both cases) was a one man, man.

jackster

[tpe]

Here again, the difference between the SS and the film is critical to our interpretations of how much Ennis loved Jack and whether or not he admitted it to himself.  In the SS, I think it is much clearer that Ennis did own up to having feelings for Jack ( motel scene), but the film leaves us high and dry on that point.  So, to flesh out Ennis ( for me), I have to think of him as Annie wrote him.  While Ennis did not act or react to love in the same way as Jack, he did love Jack and Jack knew it.  It was Jack who, although he loved Ennis, did not find it too difficult to go with other men.  Ennis  would not have grieved as he did had he not loved Jack enormously.  Could Ennis have ever completely cut himself off from Jack?  I don't think so.  So, I find it hard to think that Jack could have completely left Ennis.  Just MHO.

Yes, the short story does make this more explicit: that Ennis did love Jack and that Jack knew it.  For example, if we had not known the ss, then the full significance of the Dozy Embrace would have escaped us.  Perhaps in that nearly wordless scene, we come closest to seeing and understanding how each connected with the other, in a way that was closest to their natures.  I would like to think that this scene embodies how they really saw each other deep down.

[tpe]

Jack knew he loved Ennis but Ennis was never ready to admit it to himself until it was too late... IMO. 

Ennnis faithfulness compensated for his doubts.  I really think Jack understood this and appreciated it.  "I'm not like you..."  Jack may have had a hard time with Ennis, but he did see through all his troubles and recognized that in this one thing, he could never match him.

[tpe]

He loved Jack, Jack was the only person he really loved.   You have to look at what happened in his life, the events in his life to see that Jack was it for him.  Everything in Ennis's  life centered around Jack.    The very sad part is that he couldn't reconcile himself  to it, until it was too late. 

Did Jack see this?  Did he appreciate it?  IMO, Jack did see and appreciate that Ennis's love for him.  I think this was what kept him going through the nearly 20 years of frustration.

[jackster]

tpe:
All your comments below are right on the money IMHO. To me one of the things that makes this film so endearing is its ability to show these two men as "equals", but at the same time so very different from each other. This is what can (sometimes) make a deep, longlasting relationship work. And how we should often look at one another too, different but equal.