Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[lancecowboy]

You also have a beautiful way of saying it, lance.  Thank you. 

It's my pleasure.

[desperatehousewife]

When BM was screened on free TV for the first time in the UK a few weeks ago, there was a write up in the most widely read TV guide - The RadioTimes.  In this article, the author states that Jake has been quoted as saying that Ennis and Jack are not gay, and criticises him for this.  I am sure that I have seen interviews where Jake quite clearly talks about the characters as being gay, and feel really irritated by the authors comments.  Does anyone know if Jake ever said this?

[chameau]

You might find some answers here   But I don't recall Jake ever said this.

[tpe]

When BM was screened on free TV for the first time in the UK a few weeks ago, there was a write up in the most widely read TV guide - The RadioTimes.  In this article, the author states that Jake has been quoted as saying that Ennis and Jack are not gay, and criticises him for this.  I am sure that I have seen interviews where Jake quite clearly talks about the characters as being gay, and feel really irritated by the authors comments.  Does anyone know if Jake ever said this?

The closest I can think of at the moment where Jake came close to saying anything about the gayness of the characters is in the About Film interview.  Here is the pertinent passage:

AboutFilm: You said you thought about whether Heath could pull it off. Did you ever question yourself, and what did you question in yourself?

Gyllenhaal: I always had an argument with Ang—not an argument, but he was always like, “Jack has had more experiences with guys before, and he's more gay of the two of them.” And I was like, “Wow, am I really going to be able to be the one who brings [Heath] into this, and comforts him somehow?” I'm just as skeptical of it also, so how am I going to emotionally go there? Like their scene in the tent where I'm like, “Come in here.” I know what I'm doing, but I have no idea what I'm doing with this, you know what I mean? I'm the one who initiates these sexual encounters—which to me was totally foreign. It's like, “How do you do this? Does it look right?” And, yeah, I consider it a real movement towards something to go to a place where you're like, “Oh, this is about intimacy between two people.” You're going to have to put [the other stuff] out of your mind, and I had doubts from the beginning whether that was going to work. I think it surprises people when I say, “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.” People are like, “What's that mean?” And I'm like, “I don't really know. I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved.”


http://www.aboutfilm.com/movies/b/brokebackmountain/gyllenhaal.htm

[lancecowboy]

The closest I can think of at the moment where Jake came close to saying anything about the gayness of the characters is in the About Film interview.  Here is the pertinent passage:

AboutFilm: You said you thought about whether Heath could pull it off. Did you ever question yourself, and what did you question in yourself?

Gyllenhaal: I always had an argument with Ang—not an argument, but he was always like, “Jack has had more experiences with guys before, and he's more gay of the two of them.” And I was like, “Wow, am I really going to be able to be the one who brings [Heath] into this, and comforts him somehow?” I'm just as skeptical of it also, so how am I going to emotionally go there? Like their scene in the tent where I'm like, “Come in here.” I know what I'm doing, but I have no idea what I'm doing with this, you know what I mean? I'm the one who initiates these sexual encounters—which to me was totally foreign. It's like, “How do you do this? Does it look right?” And, yeah, I consider it a real movement towards something to go to a place where you're like, “Oh, this is about intimacy between two people.” You're going to have to put [the other stuff] out of your mind, and I had doubts from the beginning whether that was going to work. I think it surprises people when I say, “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.” People are like, “What's that mean?” And I'm like, “I don't really know. I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved.”


http://www.aboutfilm.com/movies/b/brokebackmountain/gyllenhaal.htm

Thanks, Thomas, this article and Ang Lee's are so honest and revealing.  :\'(

[tpe]

Thanks, Thomas, this article and Ang Lee's are so honest and revealing.  :\'(

Thanks lance.  I love these BBM interviews.  And you are right: their honesty takes us aback, even now after so many years...

I just love this passage:

People are like, “What's that mean?” And I'm like, “I don't really know. I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved.”

It hits the truth straight to the heart.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks, Thomas, this article and Ang Lee's are so honest and revealing.  :\'(

 I only rented the dvd after the awards to see what all the talk was about.  Could'nt tell much from the trailor either, needless to say I was hooked on this film.   My teenage  daughter kept wanting me to rent this movie called "Donnie Darko" cuz some guy named Jake Gyllenhaal was in it. no idea who he was. 
 What Jake says is absolutley true. Brokeback is bigger than any of us.

[tpe]

I only rented the dvd after the awards to see what all the talk was about.  Could'nt tell much from the trailor either, needless to say I was hooked on this film.   My teenage  daughter kept wanting me to rent this movie called "Donnie Darko" cuz some guy named Jake Gyllenhaal was in it. no idea who he was. 
 What Jake says is absolutley true. Brokeback is bigger than any of us.

OT: From BBM to DD -- two movies where Jake's characters don't exactly end up "well". 

Back to the original topic -- when he said that it was bigger than any of us, I tend to think he meant that questions like the character's sexual orientation are perhaps impossible to pin down with any certainty, because leach person will see things through the lens of his/her own unique experience.  Life is richer than any single experience, ironically.

[aintfoolin]

OT: From BBM to DD -- two movies where Jake's characters don't exactly end up "well". 

Back to the original topic -- when he said that it was bigger than any of us, I tend to think he meant that questions like the character's sexual orientation are perhaps impossible to pin down with any certainty, because leach person will see things through the lens of his/her own unique experience.  Life is richer than any single experience, ironically.

 Very well said tpe, as always, you interpret things so well. Thanx.

[tpe]

Thanks aintfoolin.  Gyllenhaal may not know it, but his inability to pin down his own feelings/thoughts about the matter is shared by many of us.  The honesty of his response and the use of the word "servicing" ssimply hows that the actor can go beyond his/her own personal limitations in order to bring something universal to life.  That's the magic of great acting.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks aintfoolin.  Gyllenhaal may not know it, but his inability to pin down his own feelings/thoughts about the matter is shared by many of us.  The honesty of his response and the use of the word "servicing" ssimply hows that the actor can go beyond his/her own personal limitations in order to bring something universal to life.  That's the magic of great acting.

 Your right again. I think I read something a while back that neither of these actors expected the film to become as big as it did. That fact that it won SO many awards speaks to the volume of the many perspectives of people from all walks of life, the kind of film where you either love it or hate it. I been in video stores and listened to a variety of opinions within earshot  while scanning the shelves. Some say they'd never watch it , some say how much they loved it, but one thing for sure , nobody said " Hmmm, I never heard of it" It opened alot of eyes. Changed alot of people's lives.

[tpe]

 Your right again. I think I read something a while back that neither of these actors expected the film to become as big as it did. That fact that it won SO many awards speaks to the volume of the many perspectives of people from all walks of life, the kind of film where you either love it or hate it. I been in video stores and listened to a variety of opinions within earshot  while scanning the shelves. Some say they'd never watch it , some say how much they loved it, but one thing for sure , nobody said " Hmmm, I never heard of it" It opened alot of eyes. Changed alot of people's lives.

I certainly think that people who watch it get to see things in a different light. 

However we choose to interpret how Ennis and Jack saw each other, we recognize that although the theme is universal, the viewpoint is always subjective.  We love or hate things depending on where we stand as human beings.  It colors the way we see how Ennis and Jack interacted with each other.

[FlwrChild]

Absolutely. Just as each of their personal experiences colored how they interpreted each other's behaviors and words.

[tpe]

Absolutely. Just as each of their personal experiences colored how they interpreted each other's behaviors and words.

In BBM, Art almost perfectly mirrors life, IMO.

[FlwrChild]

Which is precisely why we're so drawn to it, I think. Well said Thomas.

[tpe]

Which is precisely why we're so drawn to it, I think. Well said Thomas.

Thanks FlrwChild.  Yes: for me, this explains a great deal of the affinity we have for BBM.

[myprivatejack]

I think that essentially,each one of them see the other like someone who gave them something...I mean,for Ennis,Jack was somebody who gave him the strength to be himself-even by doing an eternal struggle with himself too-and the feeling of having someone who cares for him just like he was.And for Jack,Ennis was somebody who gave him something to fight for and the feeling of having someone who loved him also just like he was.And I think too that both things were very important for two uprooted country boys who haven't got the love and cares they needed;one for feeling himself alone from a very early age,the other for feeling himself depicted from a very early age...I don't know if this makes sense,

[tpe]

It makes sense.  Both of them did give each other a sense of completeness -- it is not unnatural that such an attraction is partly driven by them being so different in temperament, and that such a complementarity can be attractive and fulfilling to either of them.

[myprivatejack]

It makes sense.  Both of them did give each other a sense of completeness -- it is not unnatural that such an attraction is partly driven by them being so different in temperament, and that such a complementarity can be attractive and fulfilling to either of them.

But being so different makes them also complementary,because each of them has what lacks in the other.Yin-yang totally...

[tpe]

And some degree of incongruence gives a relationship added depth.  A relationship without conflict and misunderstanding is not a relationship.  Perhaps we shouldn't wonder too much how could they have endured the separation and misunderstandings of the nearly 20 years of knowing each other.  They would have probably have endured much worse for less...

In the end, what they see in each other is indeed a part of themselves that has been missing...

[atalley]

O.K.-I just watched it again today and was fine until that last post.

[aintfoolin]

Jack has always pursued Ennis. Always the initiator. Never the other way around. Even over time, it was Jack who came to Ennis. I understand Ennis having fear, or even shame , but when he and Jack were together , Ennis participated in the relationship on every level....until it was time for Jack to initiate contact again. It's open for speculation of course, but I never saw Ennis pursue Jack. Ennis dictated under what circumstances they would meet. and Jack let him have it that way.

Many I've spoken with  assume that had Ennis and Jack lived in a different time, ..let's say current times, that Ennis would ranch up with Jack  even allow himself to be out, maybe marry Jack,, but I have doubts. It was who Ennis felt he was, how he identified himself ( "I aint queer") is what  would limit him. If Ennis could not bring himself to accept that he loved another man, then how would he define himself or his role in the relationship? Was Jack just a convenient secret once or twice a year, or was Ennis  "in love"? There's no doubt in my mind  that Jack was "in love", but , was loving Jack, another man, so foreign to Ennis that he had no  idea how to recpricate Jack's love?  Enough that Jack never had to wonder?...or wander?  Even after 20 yrs?.

Jack's love  pursued Ennis from Brokeback "63" until we see him passionately fighting to save it in the confrontation scene.  Yes , imo within his stinging words to Ennis , he fought for Ennis's love with as much  passion as he hated the reasons why he had to say them. I think Jack knew Ennis loved him, sensed it, but I don't think he felt it , because Ennis could not accept a part of himself .... the part Jack needed to complete the puzzle permenatly. To settle for less with Lureen is one thing, to settle for less from the love of his life is another.
It was only the loss of having Jack that finally showed Ennis the depth of Jack's  love,within the shirts Jack spoke again. It was only then did he allow himself to feel what Jack had felt since "63".  It was then that he felt sad for Jack not ever finding the happiness he pursued, but even sadder that  maybe.he and he alone could have changed the outcome. ..Just some thoughts and questions I have sometime. Thanx.

[FlwrChild]

I think that essentially,each one of them see the other like someone who gave them something...I mean,for Ennis,Jack was somebody who gave him the strength to be himself-even by doing an eternal struggle with himself too-and the feeling of having someone who cares for him just like he was.And for Jack,Ennis was somebody who gave him something to fight for and the feeling of having someone who loved him also just like he was.And I think too that both things were very important for two uprooted country boys who haven't got the love and cares they needed;one for feeling himself alone from a very early age,the other for feeling himself depicted from a very early age...I don't know if this makes sense,

This is beautiful. It makes perfect sense.

And some degree of incongruence gives a relationship added depth.  A relationship without conflict and misunderstanding is not a relationship.  Perhaps we shouldn't wonder too much how could they have endured the separation and misunderstandings of the nearly 20 years of knowing each other.  They would have probably have endured much worse for less...

In the end, what they see in each other is indeed a part of themselves that has been missing...

Oh Thomas...sigh. I agree.

O.K.-I just watched it again today and was fine until that last post.

 

[atalley]

Jack's love  pursued Ennis from Brokeback "63" until we see him passionately fighting to save it in the confrontation scene.  Yes , imo within his stinging words to Ennis , he fought for Ennis's love with as much  passion as he hated the reasons why he had to say them. I think Jack knew Ennis loved him, sensed it, but I don't think he felt it , because Ennis could not accept a part of himself .... the part Jack needed to complete the puzzle permenatly. To settle for less with Lureen is one thing, to settle for less from the love of his life is another.
It was only the loss of having Jack that finally showed Ennis the depth of Jack's  love,within the shirts Jack spoke again. It was only then did he allow himself to feel what Jack had felt since "63".  It was then that he felt sad for Jack not ever finding the happiness he pursued, but even sadder that  maybe.he and he alone could have changed the outcome. ..Just some thoughts and questions I have sometime. Thanx.

Very good post AintFoolin.  I was just thinkin' about how slow he walked in the trailer and how sad and alone he looked.  But...no one could take away his dreams.

[FlwrChild]

aintfoolin, you’re absolutely right about Jack being the pursuer, making the effort to keep the connection alive.

I do think in a different time, Ennis might have agreed to that sweet life with Jack. All of those things that you pointed out in him were in large part a product of what his father taught him at such an early age, and that in turn was a product of the attitudes of the times. Who knows what they might have been allowed to have if the time and place when they met had been different?

And I agree with atalley. I loved this:

Jack's love  pursued Ennis from Brokeback "63" until we see him passionately fighting to save it in the confrontation scene.  Yes , imo within his stinging words to Ennis , he fought for Ennis's love with as much  passion as he hated the reasons why he had to say them. I think Jack knew Ennis loved him, sensed it, but I don't think he felt it , because Ennis could not accept a part of himself .... the part Jack needed to complete the puzzle permenatly. To settle for less with Lureen is one thing, to settle for less from the love of his life is another.
It was only the loss of having Jack that finally showed Ennis the depth of Jack's  love,within the shirts Jack spoke again. It was only then did he allow himself to feel what Jack had felt since "63".  It was then that he felt sad for Jack not ever finding the happiness he pursued, but even sadder that  maybe.he and he alone could have changed the outcome. ..Just some thoughts and questions I have sometime. Thanx.

So in that respect, I think Jack knew all along that Ennis was the love of his life (though I doubt he would have put it that way). And before Jack’s death and the shirts, I think Ennis would have said that Jack was his best friend and maybe even the best (as well as the worst) thing in himself, but would never admit to more, even to himself. But after, in his heart, I believe that he knew also that Jack was indeed the love of his life as well.

[tpe]

Likewise, I think that Ennis understood that it was Jack he loved above all things, but fear made him make up excuses to put some distance between Jack and himself.  This is very familiar to a lot of use, I would think: we put up walls between ourselves and those we love because sometimes, we cannot deal with the strength of that love.  It is perverse, but part of human nature.

[myprivatejack]

Likewise, I think that Ennis understood that it was Jack he loved above all things, but fear made him make up excuses to put some distance between Jack and himself.  This is very familiar to a lot of use, I would think: we put up walls between ourselves and those we love because sometimes, we cannot deal with the strength of that love.  It is perverse, but part of human nature.

I also think this,Thomas,and that he understood it so well that this is the root of all their misfortunes;if Ennis wasn't so afraid of what he was able to feel for another man,and wasn't so conscious of it,everything had been in another and easier way...What's more,I've arrived to believe that he even hated Jack sometimes for what he made him feel,for being the reason of his inner struggle.As a matter of fact,they say that love is very close to hate,no?.

[tpe]

I also think this,Thomas,and that he understood it so well that this is the root of all their misfortunes;if Ennis wasn't so afraid of what he was able to feel for another man,and wasn't so conscious of it,everything had been in another and easier way...What's more,I've arrived to believe that he even hated Jack sometimes for what he made him feel,for being the reason of his inner struggle.As a matter of fact,they say that love is very close to hate,no?.

I think such a hate is in the intrinsic nature of loving someone -- and I hope I don't come out as being paradoxial or obscure when I say this.  I think you understand exactly what I mean.  We commonly refer to this dynamic as "love-hate, but I think it is deeper than that.  That is because love always challenges us in ways that bring us outside of our comfort zones, and hunman nature often makes us rebel against this.

[myprivatejack]

I think such a hate is in the intrinsic nature of loving someone -- and I hope I don't come out as being paradoxial or obscure when I say this.  I think you understand exactly what I mean.  We commonly refer to this dynamic as "love-hate, but I think it is deeper than that.  That is because love always challenges us in ways that bring us outside of our comfort zones, and hunman nature often makes us rebel against this.

Yes,I've understand it perfectly and I only can but agree with you...

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ.

How they saw each other wasn't maybe the most important thing.  I think what was more important was that they knew that they were very different, and that both were willing to go outside of themselves if only to connect with the other.