Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?
Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?
Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?
I don't think Jack was afraid as such. I think when he denies that he's queer to Ennis, he is holding back, knowing that if he tells Ennis the truth then there's every chance that Ennis will stop their physical relationship from continuing. I think he's already pretty sure about what he wants and needs, but he knows that Ennis isn't. Ennis states catagorically that he's not queer so intead of risking everything, Jack agrees with him, letting Ennis think that this really is a one shot thing, between two very good friends, with nothing more to it than that.
Once back in the real world, Jack tries to pick up other men (Jimbo the rodeo clown) but fails and so, when Lureen comes on to him, he allows it to happen, wanting some sort of physical connection with another person, even if it's not what he really needs (there is, of course, the added attraction of LD Newsome's money - but that's a whole 'nother discussion!)
After he reunites with Ennis, I'm guessing that he probably had no real physical relationship with Lureen - this, I think, is shown when he only gives her a perfunctory kiss when he's leaving to go off on a trip with Ennis. If there was something more in their relationship, it surely would have shown when he was leaving for a week?
And then, of course, we know that he starts to become more sexually active with men after Ennis' divorce - by which time I think he has realised that Ennis isn't going to change, so there's no reason to hide his sexuality any more - no more risk of frightening Ennis off, because Ennis is already frightened enough.
Of course, he even ends up admitting it to Ennis....which, I think, is the final confirmation that he's always been "that way".
Just my 2p worth, mind....
Is Jack gay? Bi?
All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither." The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion :\'(
Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?
I don't think Jack was afraid as such. I think when he denies that he's queer to Ennis, he is holding back, knowing that if he tells Ennis the truth then there's every chance that Ennis will stop their physical relationship from continuing. I think he's already pretty sure about what he wants and needs, but he knows that Ennis isn't. Ennis states catagorically that he's not queer so intead of risking everything, Jack agrees with him, letting Ennis think that this really is a one shot thing, between two very good friends, with nothing more to it than that.
All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither." The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion :\'(
All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither." The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion :'(
Yeah :'( To me, I always thought that was one of the moments where we, as the audience, discovered Jack really was gay. He has this look on his face... he knows he's gay, but maybe he hasn't fully accepted it yet? Or these feelings for Ennis are feelings he's never had for a man before (Or anyone for that matter) and it's hitting him like a ton of bricks.
It's like he's trying to make Ennis feel better when he says "Me either".... he's not gay either, don't worry, this can be a one shot thing... (Even though Jack doesn't really want it to be that way)
I don't know, just my thoughts!
I agree with you! I've always thought that Ennis wasn't his first sexual encounter with another man, and Jack knows that he likes men, but with Ennis I think he realizes that he has other feelings too. Falling in Love. So maybe he is realizing that he may well be gay when he is saying 'me neither'.
Whenever we see Jack make the first move in the movie or make a choice about what he wants by himself, it is always a man. Lureen came on to him. In the last scene of them together Jack tells Ennis that he don't hardly never get something he needs - not something he wants. That to me more or less says it.
Jack is obviously capable of sleeping with a woman, he did father Bobby, but I think that in his ideal world he would rather be with a man.
I agree with you! I've always thought that Ennis wasn't his first sexual encounter with another man, and Jack knows that he likes men, but with Ennis I think he realizes that he has other feelings too. Falling in Love. So maybe he is realizing that he may well be gay when he is saying 'me neither'.
Whenever we see Jack make the first move in the movie or make a choice about what he wants by himself, it is always a man. Lureen came on to him. In the last scene of them together Jack tells Ennis that he don't hardly never get something he needs - not something he wants. That to me more or less says it.
Jack is obviously capable of sleeping with a woman, he did father Bobby, but I think that in his ideal world he would rather be with a man.
Excellent point, Rosie. Jack does tell Ennis he "needs" to be with another man when he says he needs something he don't hardly never gets. Jack, to me, is saying this is something that's a part of him, part of his being, and part of his essence. A fairly strong indication that his preference is toward men. I hope this is not OT, but it seems to be relevant in this discussion about Jack's sexuality: I read the People Magazine article about N'Sync's Lance Bass coming out. In it, Lance says how he had been in relationships with women, even loved women, but realized that he would never be satisfied in a relationship with a woman. Lance also says he knew his entire life he was gay but hid it. I imagine Jack would feel the same way, if asked. He knew he was gay his entire life, tried to be with women (even loved Lureen?), but he knew he couldn't be satisfied with women.
At the risk of being shot down in flames here, I think it's much the same for straight people too. It's quite possible to love someone and to feel sexually attracted to someone else - admittedly this isn't the same sort of conflict but it's real. That's like what Jack finds, IMo; he can be attracted to or find satisfaction with another man, and even with Lureen, but it's only Ennis he loves so it's only with him that he can find satisfaction in a physical,emotional and (wrong word but I can't think of the right one) intellectual sense. When your heart and your head and you body agree, then you've found the one, as he does in Ennis.
tpe, thanks for opening the thread. I was away for the weekend, full day of work yesterday. And all of you are so much further on, than I am. ^o Oh well, such is life. And my two cents on the issue is: Jack was gay in a sense that Ennis was not, because he knew about his urges, his wishes, his love and his sexuality. He was a more "aware" person and definitely more aware of being "different". The big question is: would he ever have been capable of talking about it openly? With anybody? Knowing about oneself and facing that knowledge are not always the same thing...
monicita
Yes, I think given time ( which he wasn't) Jack would have been mor open with himself and the world in general. You just have to look at some of the stories on this forum and elsewhere to see that people of Jack's generation have been able to come out now that society, or parts of it at least, are less hostile. Jack knoew who and what he was, knew that he both wanted and needed Ennis, knew that he was gay and would, I think, have adopted the word as it came into use.
Yes, I think given time ( which he wasn't) Jack would have been mor open with himself and the world in general. You just have to look at some of the stories on this forum and elsewhere to see that people of Jack's generation have been able to come out now that society, or parts of it at least, are less hostile. Jack knoew who and what he was, knew that he both wanted and needed Ennis, knew that he was gay and would, I think, have adopted the word as it came into use.
In a certain sense, Jack's openness to his sexuality was stunted by his love for Ennis. I am sure if weighed heavily in Jack's mind: that Ennis would accept him if that essential part of his nature remained unsaid. "Yes, I've been to Mexico. Is there a f*cking problem?" is a watershed, in a very real sense. He had reached the end of his rope.
Yes, I think given time ( which he wasn't) Jack would have been mor open with himself and the world in general. You just have to look at some of the stories on this forum and elsewhere to see that people of Jack's generation have been able to come out now that society, or parts of it at least, are less hostile. Jack knoew who and what he was, knew that he both wanted and needed Ennis, knew that he was gay and would, I think, have adopted the word as it came into use.
In a certain sense, Jack's openness to his sexuality was stunted by his love for Ennis. I am sure if weighed heavily in Jack's mind: that Ennis would accept him if that essential part of his nature remained unsaid. "Yes, I've been to Mexico. Is there a f*cking problem?" is a watershed, in a very real sense. He had reached the end of his rope.
Now that I think about it, the "Hell, yes I've been to Mexico. Is there a f*cking problem" line, isn't that Jack's declaration (finally) to Ennis that "Yep, I'm gay." Ennis knows there's no hiding it now; he tells Jack that Mexico is for "boys like you," hence, men who are gay. BTW, did anyone just want Jack to say to Ennis at this point: "Boys like me? What the hell does that make you? You f**k me every chance you get and have for 20 years." I just thought that Jack should've called him on this.
OT: TPE, did you say that in that deleted scene with Randall, Jack & the mechanics that Randall and Jack were kissing? Say it ain't so---I thought they were just hugging.
If this is a discussion of Jack's sexuallity, I would like to know when or if someone's sexuality --even a fictional characters's-- ever not be a topic of discussion... :'( :'(
Does it really matter or does caring about who someone is attracted really help us as a people?
What if the tire iron wielders didn't discuss no care about Jack's sexuality, would that make for a less interesting story?
A better question might be... why is sexuality still a topic of discussion (outside of the two people involved or course!) and what can we do to get over it??
De gustibus non disputandum est.
There you are, tpe, some Latin for you.
I rather wish some of the human race would act by the above - it would lead to a more peaceful world.
tpe,
I would say that the drive towards procreation may be inherent in nature, but human sexuality is not "natural" at all (at least not now and not for many hundreds of years). It is part of society and as such, endlessly changeable and changing all the time. When we look at Jack and Ennis, we can see that they have no real vocabulary to talk about their sexuality. Had they lived under different circumstances and in a different society, things would necessarily have been very different. Jack and Ennis on the East Coast? Or in San Francisco? Wouldn't have been the same. And their sexuality would have been inconceivably different as well. Hey, what about a new fanpic: Jack isn't really dead, he just decided to go off and live in San Francisco, because he couldn't stand the humdrum life he was leading.
monicita
De gustibus non disputandum est.
There you are, tpe, some Latin for you.
I rather wish some of the human race would act by the above - it would lead to a more peaceful world.
De gustibus non disputandum est.
There you are, tpe, some Latin for you.
I rather wish some of the human race would act by the above - it would lead to a more peaceful world.
Perhaps if they understood latin or if people translated it for them they would live by it. Is that a possibility?
Thanks welshwitch. I wpuld even daresay that sexuality is as much taste as it is inherent in human nature. I think a common error is to equate sexuality exclusively with procreation. If that were the case, then I might as well say that the culinary arts might as well have not progressed beyond picking and eating berries.
Thanks welshwitch. I wpuld even daresay that sexuality is as much taste as it is inherent in human nature. I think a common error is to equate sexuality exclusively with procreation. If that were the case, then I might as well say that the culinary arts might as well have not progressed beyond picking and eating berries.
A person's sexual orientation is a tiny part of them as a human being. They spend a very tiny portion of their lives in bed having sex with someone else. And to say that a person's sexual orientation is a "taste" is simply preposterous. A "taste" implies a choice. My sexual orientation truly was not a choice. Why would anyone choose a lifestyle so ridiculed and hated by so many who like to assign labels and to put those labels and their occupants into neat little cubbyholes?
Jack and Ennis' sexual orientation doesn't matter one bit in the grand scheme of things. The fact they loved each other does. Would the movie have been different if they were both straight? Would it have been different if they were both gay? Or would it have been different if one was gay and the other straight? I don't think so. The movie wasn't about their sexual orientation. It was about two men who fell in love, albeit one much later than the other.
HOWEVER, the movie WAS about putting labels on people and how putting labels on people can be deadly and can destroy a person's life. If people didn't put labels on others Rich and Earl would have lived out their lives and Ennis would not have been subjected to the horror he was. And if people didn't put labels on others and Ennis had not seen Earl dead because of labels, he and Jack just might have gone off and had that sweet life together.
And by the way, how did the town's people know Earl and Rich were queer and were having sex? Did they do it in the streets? Did they go around town telling everyone they saw? Earl and Rich could have been two guys running a ranch together and could have been perfectly straight. But the town's people put a label on them and one died because of that label.
No, I don't want people to label me by the color of my skin or who I sleep with. I want to be judged by what is in my heart and my character. There is only one person who has the right to label me and that is me.
And as for eating berries, well, I just have no idea how that can be equated to a person's sexual orientation but, let me say this; if you were eating berries, I would have found a way to enjoy my steaks and chops.
Thanks welshwitch. I wpuld even daresay that sexuality is as much taste as it is inherent in human nature. I think a common error is to equate sexuality exclusively with procreation. If that were the case, then I might as well say that the culinary arts might as well have not progressed beyond picking and eating berries.
A person's sexual orientation is a tiny part of them as a human being. They spend a very tiny portion of their lives in bed having sex with someone else. And to say that a person's sexual orientation is a "taste" is simply preposterous. A "taste" implies a choice. My sexual orientation truly was not a choice. Why would anyone choose a lifestyle so ridiculed and hated by so many who like to assign labels and to put those labels and their occupants into neat little cubbyholes?
Jack and Ennis' sexual orientation doesn't matter one bit in the grand scheme of things. The fact they loved each other does. Would the movie have been different if they were both straight? Would it have been different if they were both gay? Or would it have been different if one was gay and the other straight? I don't think so. The movie wasn't about their sexual orientation. It was about two men who fell in love, albeit one much later than the other.
HOWEVER, the movie WAS about putting labels on people and how putting labels on people can be deadly and can destroy a person's life. If people didn't put labels on others Rich and Earl would have lived out their lives and Ennis would not have been subjected to the horror he was. And if people didn't put labels on others and Ennis had not seen Earl dead because of labels, he and Jack just might have gone off and had that sweet life together.
And by the way, how did the town's people know Earl and Rich were queer and were having sex? Did they do it in the streets? Did they go around town telling everyone they saw? Earl and Rich could have been two guys running a ranch together and could have been perfectly straight. But the town's people put a label on them and one died because of that label.
No, I don't want people to label me by the color of my skin or who I sleep with. I want to be judged by what is in my heart and my character. There is only one person who has the right to label me and that is me.
And as for eating berries, well, I just have no idea how that can be equated to a person's sexual orientation but, let me say this; if you were eating berries, I would have found a way to enjoy my steaks and chops.
I do beg to disagree. When we talk about taste, we talk about sensations. We can interpret sensations any way we want or CHOOSE to want, but we CANNOT DENY sensations. To say that sensations imply a choice is to say that we can choose to have no feeling.
Sexual orientation is greater than just what you do in bed. It defines what appeals to us, our sense of physical and spiritual aesthetics. It is NOT a tiny part of myself. It informs my sense of beauty, my sense of pleasure, my sense of life. It defines how and who you love. By this single virtue, it should be treasured above many other things that purport to define us as human beings.
This can easily turn into a pissing match and I definitely do not want that. But, I disagree with you.
You say that sensation can not be denied and I will agree to a point. We can choose to ignore sensations. Millions of people do it every day. Millions of people have arthritis so bad they are in constant pain, yet they choose to ignore it and continue with their daily chores. The sensation can not be denied but the choice can be made to ignore it.
You say that sensation can not be denied and I will agree to a point. We can choose to ignore sensations. Millions of people do it every day. Millions of people have arthritis so bad they are in constant pain, yet they choose to ignore it and continue with their daily chores. The sensation can not be denied but the choice can be made to ignore it.
What I said was this:
We can interpret sensations any way we want or CHOOSE to want, but we CANNOT DENY sensations.
Observe that just because one wants to ignore constant pain DOES NOT MEAN that the sensation DOES NOT EXIST. To deny is not the same as to ignore.
Sensation is first and foremost a mental faculty that responds to stimuli. You cannot deny a mental process unless you are brain-dead.
So to say Jack is gay isn't derogatory ( accepting for a moment that it's true, as some people don't) and doesn't imply any sort of value judgement unless and until you know that the person making the statement hates gays - or for that matter loves them. Of course we label people by what they say and do, and we may be wrong, but fallibility is part of the human condition, as is the desire to classify and simplify. Unfortunately any simplification or classification is a blunt instrument.
As far as labels are concerned, I was telling someone about the forum the other day and said that on it there were people fromall over the world, some were middle-aged and some were young, some weren't native speakers of English, some were male, some female, some straight, some gay. The reaction to this was entirely neutral interest - these are all labels just as, if I could see everyone, I might have said that some were tall/dark/brown-eyed, etc.
It seems the posts have veered off topic, but I was questioning the interest of discussing Jack's sexuality. Jack may or may not be gay. O.k. now what? How will help anything to agree whether he was or not?
......... Actually I think we could all live together in a giant tent. That is, if stacp and noreins would quiet down, goin' on about Ennis and Jack's reunion kiss and all...
Discussing issues and ideas is one thing, and, that, I never intended to question... of course not. In fact, it should be encouraged and rightly so. But the whole 'is he gay, is he not?' like so often happens with celebrities, which, in somewhat weird way, Jack is, doesn't seem productive.. can even be sometimes downright vicious and petty. Jack even summed it up pretty nicely I think : "Ain't nobodys business but ours.' and I think we all agree with that, right?
one of my favorites quotes:
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."
Eleanor Roosevelt (1884 - 1962)
please know that I am in no way calling anyone in here 'small minds' The love,wisdom, encouragement, strength and insights I have found from people on here warms my heart everyday and gives hope of a better human kind. That was just one of my favorite quotes. Actually I think we could all live together in a giant tent. That is, if stacp and noreins would quiet down, goin' on about Ennis and Jack's reunion kiss and all... ;D ;D ;D
Thanks-Cherrycake
Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols.
Discussing issues and ideas is one thing, and, that, I never intended to question... of course not. In fact, it should be encouraged and rightly so. But the whole 'is he gay, is he not?' like so often happens with celebrities, which, in somewhat weird way, Jack is, doesn't seem productive.. can even be sometimes downright vicious and petty. Jack even summed it up pretty nicely I think : "Ain't nobodys business but ours.' and I think we all agree with that, right?
one of my favorites quotes:
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."
Eleanor Roosevelt (1884 - 1962)
please know that I am in no way calling anyone in here 'small minds' The love,wisdom, encouragement, strength and insights I have found from people on here warms my heart everyday and gives hope of a better human kind. That was just one of my favorite quotes. Actually I think we could all live together in a giant tent. That is, if stacp and noreins would quiet down, goin' on about Ennis and Jack's reunion kiss and all... ;D ;D ;D
Thanks-Cherrycake
Thanks Cheerycake.
The problem that invariably invades every discussion like this is that it intrinsically involves people. Jack's sexuality is, of course, a fictitious sexuality, which means that discussing whether or not he is gay necessarily means discussing what each of us think what constitutes gayness.
Real people of course use labels all the time as reference points to more complex ideas. The depth in which a label is imbued depends on the individual. Simple minds imbue a label with simplistic back-or-white concepts. Thoughtful people imbue labels with thoughtful insights into a whole world of ideas that every human concept embodies.
Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols.
What is a label?
What is a symbol?
A label/symbol can be a caricature, if the mind so wills it.
Mercifully, human nature invariably thirsts for greater meaning. We are never content to accept life at face-value. We continue to ask questions. We care not, in the final analysis, whether some get answered or not.
Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols.
Thomas. how can you say such a thing? Of course labels can be avoided. I showed you that in my example of your boss introducing a new employee to you. In my first example he avoided labeling you completely. Why? Because it was not relevant to the introduction.
Jack's and Ennis' sexuality is not relevant to the movie. I will repeat the question; if Jack and Ennis were straight, would the movie have changed? If Jack and Ennis were gay, would it have changed the movie? If one was gay and one was straight, would it have changed the movie? The movie wasn't about who was gay and who was straight. The movie was about two young men who unexpectedly fall in love.
Labels must be avoided at all costs.
You and I have known each other for 2 years. We work together. We have been out socially together. We have talked about gay things together.
One day you and a friend are downtown shopping. Here I come down the street toward you. I stop to say hello. You introduce me to your friend. Do you say George I would like you to meet my gay friend Bill? Of course not. While we are talking on the street you realize that I just might be interested in dating Bill and I am doing everything in my power to make you aware of it without coming right out and saying it. We part. You tell Bill you think I was interested in him. He asks, is he gay? Do you say, Yes, I have known him for two years now. Or do you say, Well, I don't really know. We have never been to bed together. The second reply avoids the label and is the only true answer you can give. By giving the second answer you are leaving it up to Bill and I to label ourselves to each other if we wish to. Bill and I meet and after some time we decide to share a house together.
Five years after we move in you are at work and you have to tell Betty, a co-employee, that you have to leave early because you have to buy an anniversary present for a party you are going to tonight. Betty asks whose anniversary. You say your friends George and Bill. Betty asks Are they gay? What answer can you give? What answer do you give? Well, the only true answer you can give is to say, I don't know. All you know is we are best friends and have been sharing a house together for five years today and that we are having a party. Have you ever see us in bed? No. Once again you have avoided the label.
We have become so accustomed to labeling everything and everyone that it seems like labeling can not be avoided, but it can. All we can say for sure are the facts that we know personally. And even if Bill or I come to you and tell you of our bedroom activities, you have no first hand knowledge of them so you should, and can, avoid using hearsay to label us.
But, we as humans love to tell the juiciest gossip and probably will never avoid labels completely, but we should try. Labels can hurt people.
So what are the facts of this movie as regards Jack Twist? Jack Twist loved Ennis del Mar. What are we going to do now Jack asks in the motel. We can get a little cow and calf operation together. And sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it. These show us that Jack loved Ennis. Do they show that Jack is gay? No they do not. These two men formed a special and deep bond together. Just because Jack liked to receive anal intercourse does not make him gay. We all know straight men who love the sensation of anal intercourse and that does not make them gay.
What is the most that can be said of Jack Twist's sexuality? Well, his best friend was Ennis del Mar, they had a special and deep friendship and they both denied being gay. Other than that, I don't know nor do I care what Jack's sexuality is. It is not relevant to the movie.
[ *o) TPE, I'm sorry, but your post made no sense. why quote Cherry if you go off on your own tangent? Not to attack, but I kinda expected more from you.
Words have no intrinsic value - rather like coins or notes really. What matters is the significance or value put on them by those who use them. You can turn almost anything into an insult by your tone of voice or facial expression or body language. "Gay" isn't pejorative unles the user intends it to be so.
Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols.
Thomas. how can you say such a thing? Of course labels can be avoided. I showed you that in my example of your boss introducing a new employee to you. In my first example he avoided labeling you completely. Why? Because it was not relevant to the introduction.
Jack's and Ennis' sexuality is not relevant to the movie. I will repeat the question; if Jack and Ennis were straight, would the movie have changed? If Jack and Ennis were gay, would it have changed the movie? If one was gay and one was straight, would it have changed the movie? The movie wasn't about who was gay and who was straight. The movie was about two young men who unexpectedly fall in love.
Labels must be avoided at all costs.
You and I have known each other for 2 years. We work together. We have been out socially together. We have talked about gay things together.
One day you and a friend are downtown shopping. Here I come down the street toward you. I stop to say hello. You introduce me to your friend. Do you say George I would like you to meet my gay friend Bill? Of course not. While we are talking on the street you realize that I just might be interested in dating Bill and I am doing everything in my power to make you aware of it without coming right out and saying it. We part. You tell Bill you think I was interested in him. He asks, is he gay? Do you say, Yes, I have known him for two years now. Or do you say, Well, I don't really know. We have never been to bed together. The second reply avoids the label and is the only true answer you can give. By giving the second answer you are leaving it up to Bill and I to label ourselves to each other if we wish to. Bill and I meet and after some time we decide to share a house together.
Five years after we move in you are at work and you have to tell Betty, a co-employee, that you have to leave early because you have to buy an anniversary present for a party you are going to tonight. Betty asks whose anniversary. You say your friends George and Bill. Betty asks Are they gay? What answer can you give? What answer do you give? Well, the only true answer you can give is to say, I don't know. All you know is we are best friends and have been sharing a house together for five years today and that we are having a party. Have you ever see us in bed? No. Once again you have avoided the label.
We have become so accustomed to labeling everything and everyone that it seems like labeling can not be avoided, but it can. All we can say for sure are the facts that we know personally. And even if Bill or I come to you and tell you of our bedroom activities, you have no first hand knowledge of them so you should, and can, avoid using hearsay to label us.
But, we as humans love to tell the juiciest gossip and probably will never avoid labels completely, but we should try. Labels can hurt people.
So what are the facts of this movie as regards Jack Twist? Jack Twist loved Ennis del Mar. What are we going to do now Jack asks in the motel. We can get a little cow and calf operation together. And sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it. These show us that Jack loved Ennis. Do they show that Jack is gay? No they do not. These two men formed a special and deep bond together. Just because Jack liked to receive anal intercourse does not make him gay. We all know straight men who love the sensation of anal intercourse and that does not make them gay.
What is the most that can be said of Jack Twist's sexuality? Well, his best friend was Ennis del Mar, they had a special and deep friendship and they both denied being gay. Other than that, I don't know nor do I care what Jack's sexuality is. It is not relevant to the movie.
Thanks Patriot1. We shall differ on the subject of labels, which is alright.
As for myself, personally, I never shy away from introducing myself and my friends as gay if the context is appropriate.
I am proud of the label.
But Thomas, what on earth does that have to do with you saying that labels can not be avoided? I clearly showed that they can be avoided.
And, if you ever introduced me as your gay friend George I would be highly offended. I do not flaunt my sexual orientation and rub people's noses in it and I surely do not expect you to do it for me. If I want someone to know I am gay I know how to do it, believe me I know how. :8
Do you go around introducing your heterosexual friends as, this is my heterosexual friend George? No, I don't think so. So why do it to a person who is gay? The label can be avoided. I also am proud of who I am but it is up to me to tell people, not others. The guy you are introducing me to might be an ugly old troll like me and I would prefer to avoid any potential embarrassment. ;D
I agree with the above posts; though I tend to think that Jack isn't as concerned with labelling himself as we are. He's attracted to Ennis; he goes after him and Ennis responds. Jimbo doesn't, Randall (presumably, but we're only guessing here) does. Jack must be aware that showing openly what he is would be dangerous; I wonder what he'd be like if he were a young man now? It's clearly easier now to think, if not talk, about being gay and realise that you are than it would have been in the sixties. If you're afraid and need to hide and deny what you are, that has a distorting effect in all sorts of ways.
However. that's a very English perspective; I think things have changed less in the US than they have here.
I agree - had they been brought up in a less censorious society or period, their lives might have been very different. It's hard to separate character from upbringing - it's the old nature/nurture dispute. Jack I think would certainly given his nature have been out and proud of it in a different time and place. Ennis I'm not so sure about.
I wonder if they had met today, over 40 years on, how different it would be. My feeling is that nowadays it is so much easier to be "out" (ok maybe not in rural America - but at least it's talked about) that they wouldn't have been so surprised at the feelings developing between them even as 19 year olds. It may have made their relationship easier but possibly less special? Did having to keep it secret intensify the passion?
(Sorry I'm not very good at articulating what I mean - was it stronger because it was secret?)
OT: TPE, did you say that in that deleted scene with Randall, Jack & the mechanics that Randall and Jack were kissing? Say it ain't so---I thought they were just hugging.
OT: TPE, did you say that in that deleted scene with Randall, Jack & the mechanics that Randall and Jack were kissing? Say it ain't so---I thought they were just hugging.
If this is a discussion of Jack's sexuallity, I would like to know when or if someone's sexuality --even a fictional characters's-- ever not be a topic of discussion... :\'( :\'(
Does it really matter or does caring about who someone is attracted to really help us as a people?
What if the tire iron wielders didn't discuss nor care about Jack's sexuality, would that make for a less interesting story?
A better question might be... why is sexuality still a topic of discussion (outside of the two people involved or course!) and what can we do to get over it??
...
The problem that invariably invades every discussion like this is that it intrinsically involves people. Jack's sexuality is, of course, a fictitious sexuality, which means that discussing whether or not he is gay necessarily means discussing what each of us think what constitutes gayness.
...
The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.
It sounds like the FNIT was the first physical intimacy Ennis had ever known of any sort. I get the impression he had never been close to anyone, not even his mother (not withstanding his dozy embrace recollection of what she'd said). In the ss he only has a drink and a chat with Jack and he thinks "he'd never had such a good time". In the film his little chat, explaining the situation with his siblings, was "the most he'd spoke in a year". Did he fall in love with Jack because he was the first person he could talk to, or did he talk to Jack because he was falling in love with him?
...
The problem that invariably invades every discussion like this is that it intrinsically involves people. Jack's sexuality is, of course, a fictitious sexuality, which means that discussing whether or not he is gay necessarily means discussing what each of us think what constitutes gayness.
...
I would think that's what we're discussing here -- not whether gay or straight is good or bad or whether labels are good or bad (though that is an interesting and important discussion also), but what "gay" means to each of us. Using Jack and Ennis and their behavior as we read it as a reference, what does that tell us about ourselves? I like the discussion of "gayness" without getting sidetracked, yet we can't separate who we are from everything about society that makes us that way or that sees us a certain way...and I have no point except that it's a complex issue -- and discussing it is totally a good thing and can only make the world a better place.
kathy
An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality
Introduction and Disclaimer: Like a great many others, I have become an obsessive fan of Brokeback Mountain. As such, I have spent a great deal of time thinking about the movie, and its main characters, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist.
During the course of all of this thinking, I came to a few conclusions and formed a few thoughts on Ennis and Jack. Of course, these are only my thoughts and opinions, so that means that they are not by any means canon or exact. I am not Anne Proulx, so I don’t know exactly what goes on in the minds of these guys. (I do occasionally wish I was though… then I could say, “I was only joking… Jack didn’t die and he and Ennis are living happily together in Truckee, CA! That would have been a much happier ending… don’t you think? :P) Some of you may recognize parts of this… some of it was written, by me, in a post on a previous thread and has been expanded on here.
Anyway, the following are my assessments in regards to Jack and his feelings about his relationship with Ennis, and what I feel is the answer to the question that many people have asked. Was Jack gay, how did he know that Ennis would be receptive to him, and did he plan/arrange their first sexual encounter?
First off, let’s cover the question of how Jack knew Ennis would be receptive.
Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis, though in my feeling unknowingly, did in fact put that vibe out there!
The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.
So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the fact that there was a possible "Drunk out of my mind" escape route available. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and hopefully keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.
The next question is, did Jack plan ahead of time for things to happen that night. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile we quickly observe after he settles in (though whether this was scripted or simply a smile on Jake’s part is unclear) but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.
Finally, the last question… was Jack gay? This is a sticky one. For a long time my thought was no, however, the more I think about it the more I think that he was. My reasons for this are somewhat simple.
Jack is obviously attracted to Ennis from the first moment he see him, and unlike Ennis, I believe that Jack was well aware of that attraction. He never tries to hide it from Ennis either, and in some ways, though he does not come right out and say anything directly, he is not very subtle about it either. The looks he gives him, the things that he says, the way he smiles at him, all of there things strongly speak the words “I want you!”
In the movie it doesn’t say so, and it doesn’t indicate it in the short story until after their four year reunion that he had been with others, but I believe that Jack had had some previous experience with men before he met Ennis. Anne Proulx, in an interview states this as well.
However, the biggest indicators to me that he was gay come after their time together on the mountain. After they part, he goes to Texas to rodeo. While there, before he meets Lureen, we observe him hitting on a rodeo clown. We know he goes to Mexico after the divorce rejection, and though it doesn’t say so, we can assume that this is probably not the first or the last time he did so. He had an affair with Randall that, presumably lasted several years, and he clearly states to Ennis during their last meeting that he can’t make it on “a couple of high altitude f***s” a year. This is the best indicator to me that he is gay… obviously he not only desires sew with men, but it seems that is the only kind of sex that he finds satisfying. To me that speaks of a gay man.
The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.
It sounds like the FNIT was the first physical intimacy Ennis had ever known of any sort. I get the impression he had never been close to anyone, not even his mother (not withstanding his dozy embrace recollection of what she'd said). In the ss he only has a drink and a chat with Jack and he thinks "he'd never had such a good time". In the film his little chat, explaining the situation with his siblings, was "the most he'd spoke in a year". Did he fall in love with Jack because he was the first person he could talk to, or did he talk to Jack because he was falling in love with him?
This defiant statement comes from his being older, more experienced and knowing he can get what he wants other than from Ennis. It also comes, I think, from his secure financial position and his belief that he is safe enough in his everyday life. And it's the thing that makesm e think he's ready to give up on Ennis at least as far as the sweet life is concerned - he first went to Mexico after the divorce scene, but he's kept it quiet for years - now he either thinks if Ennis knows he'll realise how desperate he is or just doesn't care how knowing will affect Ennis.
So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?
Hmm, it is interesting. The romantic in me would love to think nothing would have kept him away, but the truth is he kept going back and getting hurt. Maybe that last argument was the final straw? :\'( Hate to think that tho.So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?
Ahhh, that's a good question. It has been discussed in a number of thread (i.e., those dealing with the last meeting and whether Jack gave up on Ennis).
I would like to think that he would not be able to pass up a meeting with Ennis. But the other possibility (that he would not) is just as likely...
So, if he hadn't died would he have met Ennis that November?
Ahhh, that's a good question. It has been discussed in a number of thread (i.e., those dealing with the last meeting and whether Jack gave up on Ennis).
I would like to think that he would not be able to pass up a meeting with Ennis. But the other possibility (that he would not) is just as likely...
Sorry to be going over old stuff, but I only saw the film for the first time 10 days ago. It is the most affecting film I've seen for a long, long time. How Heath Ledger didn't get Best Actor, I don't know....
amtamburo, did you not also post an interesting opinion about whether or not Ennis was gay?
Whether I agree or not agree with all your conclusions, there is no doubt in my mind that you had thought about these topics very carefully. For this I thank you.
amtamburo, did you not also post an interesting opinion about whether or not Ennis was gay?
Whether I agree or not agree with all your conclusions, there is no doubt in my mind that you had thought about these topics very carefully. For this I thank you.
Yes I did. I have thought about this a lot... I think mostly because the story has caused me to explore myself on these levels and in doing so I found myself examining Jack and Ennis.
The things I stated in my posts are only my thoughts and feelings... I don't expect anyone to agree with me nor do I want to change anyone else's opinion. Just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.
Btw... when i commented on Jack not having changed... I was talking about while they were on the mountain in 1963 during their initial "courting" of each other...
Do you know one of the reasons I love Jack is because he doesn't apparently analyze himself - he just is what he is and doesn't care. I doubt if it ever crosses his mind to work out what he is or whether he should be whatever it is - he just goes ahead and does it. Paradoxically though he seems the more intelligent of the two, he strikes me as less self-analytical than Ennis.
Just as much as the tag line of the movie says of love, Jack seems to me to be a force of nature.
Just as much as the tag line of the movie says of love, Jack seems to me to be a force of nature.Yes, thank you, welshwitch .. have to agree with FlwrChld & Jesseanne21 ... very much love that sentiment. ^f^
Wow ... and wow ...
I'm completely blown away by your last two posts, Welshwitch ... I feel like I came to the table for a light snack, and found a whole banquet... thank you!!!!! That was just so .... amazing ... :) much to think about, much to ponder ...
And if you're ever forced to question yourself in this way, later you can never forget it - it's always there inside you like a gremlin waiting to pop up. You can never put back exactly as it was your vision of what there was or what you are - nearly, maybe, but not entirely. After that there's always the crack in the golden bowl, or, as Leontes says,
There may be in the cup
A spider steep'd, and one may drink, depart,
And yet partake no venom ( for his knowledge
Is not infected): but if one present
The abhorr'd ingredient to his eye, make known
How he hath drunk, he cracks his gorge, his sides,
With violent hefts. I have drunk, and seen the spider.
By their last confrontation, if not before, Jack has seen the spider.
Wow, wonderful posts everyone. Nothing to add of my own. Just pondering your words and thoughts. Thinking of our boy Jack. :\'(
Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?
I don't think Jack was afraid as such. I think when he denies that he's queer to Ennis, he is holding back, knowing that if he tells Ennis the truth then there's every chance that Ennis will stop their physical relationship from continuing. I think he's already pretty sure about what he wants and needs, but he knows that Ennis isn't. Ennis states catagorically that he's not queer so intead of risking everything, Jack agrees with him, letting Ennis think that this really is a one shot thing, between two very good friends, with nothing more to it than that.
Once back in the real world, Jack tries to pick up other men (Jimbo the rodeo clown) but fails and so, when Lureen comes on to him, he allows it to happen, wanting some sort of physical connection with another person, even if it's not what he really needs (there is, of course, the added attraction of LD Newsome's money - but that's a whole 'nother discussion!)
After he reunites with Ennis, I'm guessing that he probably had no real physical relationship with Lureen - this, I think, is shown when he only gives her a perfunctory kiss when he's leaving to go off on a trip with Ennis. If there was something more in their relationship, it surely would have shown when he was leaving for a week?
And then, of course, we know that he starts to become more sexually active with men after Ennis' divorce - by which time I think he has realised that Ennis isn't going to change, so there's no reason to hide his sexuality any more - no more risk of frightening Ennis off, because Ennis is already frightened enough.
Of course, he even ends up admitting it to Ennis....which, I think, is the final confirmation that he's always been "that way".
Just my 2p worth, mind....
If that was the case, then how could they keep going the way they were? Jack had his own issues, but he was growing in spite of them and slowly from Ennis. Jack was more accepting of his sexuality. And you're right he lay it out to Ennis in the final confrontation, remember how he told Ennis that once or twice a year wasn't enough for him, and the line about the "short leash", struck me to the heart. Is that how he really felt, we all knew that, but he finally saw it.
I don't see any way Jack could have come back in November, if had lived. He loved Ennis, but it was too painful to go through the same game with him.
I respectfully disagree with your last statements. Had he lived he'd showed up at Pine Creek ,armed with an ultimatum if Ennis was'nt talkin right. After this confrontation, Jack would'nt have missed this meeting for the world imo. This was a long battle for a deep passionate love. 20 years of hope on Jack's part. It was probably the meeting that would,ve made or broke the relationship. he would get an answer from Ennis wether he would sh-t or get off the pot in this meeting. At this point they both knew the game is over. Jack knows Ennis will have something VERY important to say. He had forced Ennis's hand in that confrntation. Inlight of Jack's honest,truthful, yet painful words spoken in their last meeting, Ennis has had plenty of time to think. It was major decision time and Jack was'nt about to miss hearing Ennis's reaction to those words ,wether or not it was what he wanted to hear so that he could take the next steps into his future with or without Ennis. He forced
Ennis to make a major choice and it was essential that he hear it face to face. He'da showed. Always, in my humble opinion.
aintfoolin,
if that was the case, then it would have gone like that till both died a natural death, Jacks pleading and Ennis refusal. Ennis's girl would have been grown, so him working to pay child support would no longer be valid. What would have been his new excuse?
Jack was at that point, like you said sh-t or get off the pot. What would have been different if they would have met in November, that's the $64,000. question. I think Jack would still watching Ennis drive off again, looking forward to the next meeting, like always.
Going by the ss dates, Alma Jr would have been 18 in Sept 1982 and "Jenny", as the movie calls her, sometime in 1984. thus by Nov '83 Ennis would have been free of half his child support payments and withing sight of the end of the others. At least then he couldn't claim those as preventing him from leaving to be with Jack. Since he saw the gilrs infrequently at best, he could easily have seen them at the same sort of intervals wherever he was living, and of course they are mobile - Alms Jr has access to a car.
So it comes down to what he wanted to do, and by the next Novemeber, if he was still hanging back, Jack had only two options, to give him an ultimatum knowing he would refuse to comply or go on as he had done for so long. And Ennis must have had some idea of this, so to me it seems that what he couldn't do was abandon his idea of himself as the macho man, husband, father, etc., and admit that what he wanted was another man. Clearly by putting Jack into a category ("boys like you") from which he excludes himself he is still denying, even after so long, his essential nature. In which case he's not going to change if he hasn't now.
I don't think he'd necessarily stop loving Jack, just wouldn't be prepared to admit publicly that he did and move himslef into the same category as Jack.
tpe, darling, you are so right!
This whole thing is about Jack's sexuality, not about Ennis. In my opinion, Jack took an important step when he started talking to his parents about bringing Randall to their place (yes, yes, I know, some of us really hate to think of that!). He decided to give his life and his sexuality an new direction. Why his sexuality? Because he decided to try to live his dream with somebody who, if not openly gay, was very upfront about wanting to have sex with Jack (the scene on the bench after the dance). What I am asking myself is: Would it have worked any better with Randall? Would Randall have given up his old life to be with Jack? Maybe Jack was reenacting something here: his rejection. Did he pick people he knew would reject him on some level? And was that because he was afraid of his own sexuality in some way?
monicita
IMO;
To me Jack was certain about his sexuality, he had no questions, he didn't spend his time pondering about it, he didn't take to his sick bed or look for divine guidance. Jack was gay, Jack was gay before he met Ennis. His parents knew he was gay, or at least his mother knew. Remember Lureen never met his parents, that should tell something right there, after almost twenty years of marrigage, (give me a break? ) But he would have bought Ennis to them, unfortunately it was after his death did Ennis finally meet them, and maybe he would have brought Randall to "meet the parents " (perish the thought). If it hadn't been Ennis refusal to have a "Real good life", Jack and Ennis would have built their house on L.F. and lived happily ever after.
Yes, I believe Jack was gay (and knew it) and that Ennis was too (but was never able to accept it).
And either way, in a better world, they might have had a good life together.
I've only just joined this and haven't read all of the discussion, but I just wrote an entry under "Is Ennis gay?" It could have fit in this column. Further to what I wrote there: In the '60s, Mexican males were less hung-up about being labled "queer" and it was relatively common for them to play around with other guys - with or without pay - and still feel macho and attracted to women. Americans often joked of this and that would explain Ennis' comment "I've heard... in Mexico". The concept of fixated "gayness" is relatively recent and first appears in Anglo-American society within the past century. As for Jimbo, I believe that Lary McMurtry took this brief scene from another of Annie's short stories which describes the loneliness of the itinerant bull-rider. Jack is from Wyoming (an economically poor state) in wealthy, clique-ish Texas riding bulls; an occupation of outsiders short of money. His approach to Jimbo - in my mind, and perhaps in Jack's - could be simply an attempt to find acceptance with a local who is part of a group. Jimbo rejects him as a tainted outsider and resumes his place among the calf-ropers; the Club. The barman suggests to Jack that he take up calf-roping if he wants to become socially acceptible. This scenario is expressed in Annie Proulx's other stories without necessarily any "gay" element. But Jack's return to Ennis could have been fueled by his need for the one person who truly accepted and admired him. I think that was the intention of the Jimbo scene. Lachlan
One question that had remained in my mind was how long did his intimacy with Lureen last. One side tells me that it could not have lasted after Lureen became entirely consumed with business. Still, did he consciously shy away from such an intimacy, or was he just left with mo choice?
We seem to have wandered on to Ennis here!.
But I agree that Jack was aware of his own sexual impulses in a way Ennis wasn't, and acted on them. However, part of the problem here is that we're dealing with characters ( not just Jack) who are not intellectual, analytical, introverted, though Jack is more self-aware than Ennis. But I don;t think Jack has come to thionk of him,slef as gay or indeed as anything in particular. I think he just knows what he wants and goes after it, without mentally categorizing it.
Look to the wife for answers to that question. Lureen's appearance changed over the years, her hair got blonder, she wore more make up and jewelry, she was holding on to what she think is womanhood. She was emphasizing her femininity, holding on to it. Remember she was the sexually aggressive one in the beginning, Jack went for the ride. But, what if she noticed how the sexual dynamics in their marriage worked, how many times she waited for him to take her, reach out to her, but didn't. Believe me it works on the mind, and the imagine of yourself.
.
I couldn't agree more. Jack did not spend time obsessing about his sexuality or gave it much thought if any. I also agree he wouldn't labelled himself one way or the other.
But don't you know what is interesting? That Alma, Ennis, Aguirre, all came up with terms and phrase when it came to Jack. "Jack Nasty" and "boys like you" "stemming the rose", (I think was the term).
Alma saw Jack as a direct cause for the destruction of her marriage to Ennis, Ennis saw Jack as a direct threat in, in spite of his whelming love and need for him, obtaining his idea of a conventional life. Aguirre just represents society and how it felt about homosexuality. And Jack unknowingly became the centerpiece of these three people's fears, anger, and misunderstanding.
Jack was the only one without issues, he wanted Ennis, it's was as simple as that to him.
^^I totally agree, Thomas. Jack was not conflicted emotionally; he felt what he felt, and that's all. That's one of the (many) things I love about the character.
As I've said before, unlike us these are not analytical people - they have limited inner or intellectual lives, and that's particularly true of Jack, I think. He feels and acts on his feelings without any great desire to analyze how and why.
This quote was highly disconcerting at first. Until I gave it further thought,then realised you could apply it in the context of an established and nurturing relationship.....WHEW !!!
Is Jack gay? Bi?
All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither." The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion :\'(
that part made me so mad because we live in a world where people can't admit what they really feel, even when this took place. Jack had to lie to get what he loved because people are insensitive. It breaks my heart everytime i watch it. :-\\
I feel this is where Jack's fear is most obvious. He did'nt want to loose Ennis after the porgress he had made with him up to that point. He had gotten Ennis to at least acknowlege that he may have some feelings , in the realm of his own. But Jack knew even after FNIT that Ennis was not exactly ready to march in the gay pride parades just yet. Far from it. He had to think fast and deny who he was, or risk loosing Ennis. Ennis was clear with his denial, " I anit queer". This statement spoke volumes to Jack,told him alot about Ennis;s state of mind. Was'nt gonna foolishly get into lectures or forceful prodding with him about it. This would only put Ennis on the defensive, although he had the sense that Ennis was in deep denial. It was only after SNIT when Jack saw the real vulnerability of Ennis. He had heiped paved the way for this very withdrawn , emotionally * beaten down* cowboy to find enough courage to explore further, a part of his sexuality that mirrored his own. It's a sad commentary on society then and now that disallows people to be themselves with out fear of harm or rejection....My 2 cents
Jack's intuitions almost always matched the truth. The second tent scene shows that Jack wasn't fooled by Ennis's « I ain't queer » ; he waited for Ennis, and Ennis showed up in the tent.
Later, however, for example after Ennis's divorce, Jack was too far ahead of Ennis, who still wasn't ready to live with Jack. But I think that until his dying breath, Jack knew how much Ennis loved him.
SNIT was Ennis's choice, he was sober, he walked to the tent, his hat off his head in his hand, kneeling in front of Jack. He wanted Jack again, the awkward kiss, and Jack's gentle reassurances. Jack knew how important this passage in Ennis's life was. Jack wisely let Ennis feel the experience, touch him, get lost in him, and then guide him. The emotional and physical need for Jack was there for Ennis, it was only the years of mental conditioning was the wall Jack couldn't breakthrough.
I believe that Jack's sexuality though never outwardly declared was alway an unspoken reality. Ennis's sexuality was a shouted denial of who he really was. My 2 cents.
Do you think, Thomas, that Jack had not been sexual with a man before? When you spoke of this being the first time we see him comfortable with his desires. I don't know if I think Jack had been sexual with men before or not, but in this instance, this summer, with Ennis, he knew he had to take the lead. And his desires certainly seemed to have taken the lead over any hesitations he might have in his mind, so that he could take the lead with Ennis. Both of them seemed to realize how it had to be that night, as opposed to FNIT.
kathy
I had meant the statement to apply to his dealings with Ennis, specifically, but your question got me to think of this even more. Surely, any sexual encounters Jack had during previous summers must not have made a lasting connection weith him. They were probably purely driven more by physical gratification. And in many such cases, we tend to be less comfortable when we contemplate of a deeper connection. (the "I'm just in it for the fun" attitude, with no strings attached.) Do you know what I am referring to here? Some poeple have a fear of commitment precisely because they do not really feel comfortable with a relationship on a much deeper level...
Perhaps this comment belongs more under the thread "When did they fall in love?", but it fits in with this thread, too. As you pointed out, tpe, the men who came before Ennis were just physical gratification to Jack. I really believe the FNIT is similar to those experiences -- fast, furious, rough, satisfying, but physical only. I think it wasn't until the SNIT that Jack takes the experience WAAAAYYY past the physical. He is tender, slow, coaxing, but not forceful. He opens himself up to rejection; he leaves it up to Ennis whether or not he comes to Jack's tent. This is the scene where, I believe, Jack falls in love. He no longer wants an occasional f**k. He wants some feeling from ENnis because he has those feelings FOR Ennis. I don't think Jack ever felt like that about anyone, including Randall in the future. (I think the SNIT opened the door to love for Ennis, but he wasn't there yet. I don't believe ENnis fell in love until four years later when he finally realized what his physical actions meant when he got sick while walking down the road away from Jack after they left BBM. Once ENnis realized why he was so angry and hurt so much, I think he figured out that he really loved this man and wanted him. Therefore, when Jack re-emerges, Ennis is ready for love.)
Yes, I certainly know what you mean, that "love" would have been much more difficult for both of them than "sex." I mean, men have always had sex with each other (and with other things besides women), but it's not that difficult for them to deny that it has any meaning but a necessary gratification or relief of frustration. These two...oh...so beautiful, the SNIT -- they moved on to something much more precious than just sex.
Okay, this is definitely a big generalization, but we all know what is said about men and sex vs. women and sex -- that it is a much more purely physical act for men, but for women, it is tied in with our whole beings and maybe even the well-being of the world. So we could say (on the subject of why women love men-in-love) that we love men, love Ennis and Jack, sharing sex in a "woman's way," sex with a whole heartful of emotion attached. When they crossed that line they became lovers in the most wonderful sense of the word.
kathy
Perhaps this comment belongs more under the thread "When did they fall in love?", but it fits in with this thread, too.I'll second kathy's praise here lamusica, all beautifully said. As for Ennis I’ve always interpreted his line from SS motel scene as him admitting when he knew he fell in love:
Right, jackster. I was thinking he realized the real cause of his cramps a few years later. Forgot the exact words. But, we see it the same way. It was that physical experience of real pain that showed his mental ( emotional) pain. He had just never experienced anything like that before, so didn't recognize it for what it was for a year. I found that gut-wrenching scene to be one of the most poignant and meaningful scenes in the movie. I think the viewers knew what was causing the cramps, even if Ennis didn't.
Kathy,
I loved your post. Its a question I had, but couldn't really put into words. Even after the FNIT, I think both were at most vulnerable in their lives. From the start, the friendship and close bonding that brings got all tied-up in the sex, a almost natural progression which was specific to these two men. One recognize in the other that there was no other way to go but the physical, and the meaning of that kind of bonding. Now for some it's almost like the question what came first the chicken or the egg. Was it emotional or the physical, or was all tied up on that FNIT, they knew that this was how it was going to be between them from that night on.
At the reunion, Ennis lay in Jack's arm, protected, wanted. Jack held on to Ennis possessively, knowing that he wasn't letting him get away again. Emotionally open to one another, sexually needing each other specifically, notwithstanding who they been with since or before, or after. Your statement of a man's physical, and women's emotional view of sex is so tied up with them, it evidence that we see our own vulnerability in them. Is that why it's so heartbreakingly disturbing and so beautiful to some of us?
I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither." The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion.
Perhaps this comment belongs more under the thread "When did they fall in love?", but it fits in with this thread, too. As you pointed out, tpe, the men who came before Ennis were just physical gratification to Jack. I really believe the FNIT is similar to those experiences -- fast, furious, rough, satisfying, but physical only. I think it wasn't until the SNIT that Jack takes the experience WAAAAYYY past the physical. He is tender, slow, coaxing, but not forceful. He opens himself up to rejection; he leaves it up to Ennis whether or not he comes to Jack's tent. This is the scene where, I believe, Jack falls in love. He no longer wants an occasional f**k. He wants some feeling from ENnis because he has those feelings FOR Ennis. I don't think Jack ever felt like that about anyone, including Randall in the future. (I think the SNIT opened the door to love for Ennis, but he wasn't there yet. I don't believe ENnis fell in love until four years later when he finally realized what his physical actions meant when he got sick while walking down the road away from Jack after they left BBM. Once ENnis realized why he was so angry and hurt so much, I think he figured out that he really loved this man and wanted him. Therefore, when Jack re-emerges, Ennis is ready for love.)
Yes, I certainly know what you mean, that "love" would have been much more difficult for both of them than "sex." I mean, men have always had sex with each other (and with other things besides women), but it's not that difficult for them to deny that it has any meaning but a necessary gratification or relief of frustration. These two...oh...so beautiful, the SNIT -- they moved on to something much more precious than just sex.
Okay, this is definitely a big generalization, but we all know what is said about men and sex vs. women and sex -- that it is a much more purely physical act for men, but for women, it is tied in with our whole beings and maybe even the well-being of the world. So we could say (on the subject of why women love men-in-love) that we love men, love Ennis and Jack, sharing sex in a "woman's way," sex with a whole heartful of emotion attached. When they crossed that line they became lovers in the most wonderful sense of the word.
kathy
Is that why it's so heartbreakingly disturbing and so beautiful to some of us?
Jackster, you, too -- lovely words. It fills me with...something rich and deep, and a little sad, and a little hopeful, to read all of this, this discussion of trying to understand this beautiful love we get to look at and learn from.
kathy
“I ain’t queer . . . . me neither”.
This quote and it’s significance in terms of personal denial has been mentioned several times here and in other threads . . . .
IMHO I don’t think that either Ennis or Jack truly did think they were “queer” when this phase is uttered in ’63 – their shared sex notwithstanding. So to me this isn’t truly a denial. This is 1963, rural Wyoming. I’m no gay historian, but I think both guy’s would’ve thought a queer was someone who was effeminate, a nancy, or a dozen other adjectives used to describe non-masculine men who were considered queer in those parts (and many others) in those days - and for some time to come.
Again to me, it doesn’t seem that Ennis or Jack looked on either themselves or each other that way during their summer on Brokeback. I sense they both felt they were predominantly heterosexual, and that ruled out being considered “a queer”. I think of all the butch sailors in port cities who “allowed” themselves to be picked up by men for sex, I doubt many considered themselves “queer” either. One of the marvels of the modern gay pride movement has been to turn “queer” into a term many use today (40+ yrs later) with bravado to describe themselves. How and when Jack’s and Ennis’s view of this may have changed over the years is an interesting question to me. By the reunion kiss in '67, and then by '83, after 20 years of their relationship, did they think they were “queer” then? Or was there another term they would use to describe each other – “Tough old birds” ^-^?. . . Is this one of the things that made Ennis finally breakdown with his crushing defeat of “I can’t stand this anymore Jack”? He saw himself as a "queer"?
jackster
But this thread is about Jack's sexuality -- and it does seem that he was just easier with his propensities all his life, for whatever reasons. He could have been traumatized by his father, but he seemed to be one of those people who have a belief in himself -- so he left home and sought to find himself, secure at least in himself if not in how other people were around him.
kathy
Whatever defines a man's being gay -- and we could discuss that until the sheep go home -- I'm thinking Jack does seem to have that in him, because of this: the kind of life he wanted depended on his having a man, having Ennis, as a partner. He obviously wanted that sweet life where they would share equally, have an "operation" together. Not the kind of life he would have -- did have -- with a woman.
It might have been different for both Jack and Ennis if they were flat-out rejecting the totally "traditional" nuclear family mode -- if the constraints of that traditional masculine role were in part what drove their desires to share life with a man rather than with a woman. But Lureen worked, as opposed to Jack being the sole breadwinner. So he could have had a more "modern" relationship with her (and even having sex so freely before marriage was a sign of the modern times) but that was not what he wanted. Something deeper drove his yearning for Ennis, and that could be said to be the complex psychoemotional thing that is "gay." And he found in Ennis that key that unlocked his whole heart and self.
(In the 60's we can see this change was beginning. Young women of my generation, as Alma and Lureen were, for the most part had every intention of working and having some kind of life other than what most of our mothers had had, which was staying home with kids. This was both a blessing and a curse to (straight) men of the times -- it should have been seen as giving more freedom, but it was also seen as a challenge to their place on top.)
As to Ennis, his thing is so much more complicated than Jack's. In his case, Alma going to work was not seen as a relationship with an "equal," but as his being a failure at providing for his family. And that only wounded his fragile ego even more -- as if he wasn't already defensive enough at even the tinest thought that anyone might know who he really is.
Actually, this approach is kind of "politicizing" being gay, whereas in truth, it's generally not about options, rejecting the straight man's role -- it's just deeper, a more intrinsic emotional thing. (But in the case of lesbians, it often is about rejecting a role and choosing another option.)
So let's see...the bottom line is...Jack is gay. Until further notice. ::)
kathy
But all this begs the question, why in heck did he stayed married to Lureen He had an opportunity to be bought off, but Ennis is the one with the divorce, Jack died married, how ironic is that?
I totally agree. Jack's happiness depended first and foremost on Ennis. A man. When Ennis was'nt available Jack sought out men for sex. He was gay. Although in the movie Jack did'nt have or seek out women, but it is evident just by women on these threads that Jack could have many if he so chose. I mean the man just has what women desire. But there is no doubt what he needed. ( " something he hardly ever got"). It was more than than sex to him though. He also wanted a real loving partnership that involves co-habitation in a lifelong sense. He felt that strongly about it. He would,ve left Lureen at the drop of a hat if Ennis had agreeed to this. It's who he was body and soul.My 2 cents
But all this begs the question, why in heck did he stayed married to Lureen He had an opportunity to be bought off, but Ennis is the one with the divorce, Jack died married, how ironic is that?
O.K. I hope I don't offend anyone . . .
Jack was married into a wealthy family who had a respectable position (more or less) in the community. Considering that this was (70's or 80's) back in the day when divorce was still (sort of) frowned upon, I think there would have been more "talk" from the community and Lureen's family if they where to get a divorce.
Ennis on the other hand was living in a much poorer state and (how do I put this) probably wasn't thought as highly by wealthy folks. In short, it makes me think that, the wealthier people might have expected that from someone who was as poor and depressed as Ennis.
I hope that made some sort of sense.
He stayed with Lureen partly because that was what Ennis expected him to do, I think.Huh? Sorry, tpe you've lost me here. Can you enlighten me on this? :-\\
Huh? Sorry, tpe you've lost me here. Can you enlighten me on this? :-\\
jackster
Sorry jackster, I should have elaborated.
Thanks tpe, I understand now. My take on that was that once HE was divorced it was probably OK for Jack too. ;).
jackster
Why didn't Jack without Ennis knowing, do you think, leave Lureen? Start his life over and just went to Ennis and told him after it was said and done?
It continues for me be so amazing how the slightest shift in the lives of these men, who rarely so each other but a few times a year, was intertwined and could and did cause tension between them.
Ennis's call, yes, Ennis's control. Jack didn't stand a chance with him.
After the fnit, and Ennis approached Jack "this is a one shot thing we got going on here" Ennis wanted him again. in order to do this, he lay out the ground rules, right from the start. Jack must have been overjoyed, instead of raising that 30/30 and blowing his brains out, (which I think for a minute he thought it would happen, this just a passing thought I had, I'm weird that way), Ennis was acknowledging that what happened was real, and will happen again, the fact that Ennis warned him, Jack from that moment on was trying to relate to him that what they had was real, and could last. That second night was crucial for Jack. It proved that Ennis indeed wanted him, but awaken something so deep in Ennis which in turn he tried to deny.
In most cases Love and Sexuality are bound together, but to deny love and deny sexuality at the same time, but being ruled by both leads to a life Ennis was living and Jack was fighting against. Does this make any sense?
I, for one, certainly agree with all of that. I think that Ang Lee deliberately devised the scene of the day after FNIT - with the images of the dead sheep, Ennis'' obvious tension, Jack's shivering while washing the shirts, and the eerie music as they finally meet on the mountainside; not facing one another, Ennis with his rifle in hand - as a means of worrying the viewer that something violent might happen. Therefore the finish of that scene (with the change of music from tense to comforting) make the SNIT all the more relieving.
I feel Jack was such a human character. His sexuality as is like most people depends not only just sex, but something much deeper. He was able to receive whatever Ennis defined as love. He felt something alot deeper than physical aspects, and I feel on this plane he and Ennis were the most equal. In SNIT Ennis appararently felt something deep and soulstirring with Jack. Yes, they had sex, but I feel one must go back a step. Ennis sitting on that log contemplating going in and Jack inside must have been a moment of confusing thoughts for both. Jack had laid a "foundation " for Ennis to either accept or reject. Showed Ennis who he himself was ,( a brave move) and what he wanted from Ennis which was to show Ennis that he had embraced his homosexuality and desired Ennis to do the same. Jack's whole sexuality defined , is what Ennis fell in love with. It is the whole person Ennis went into that tent to join with. Jack first became a friend, gained Ennis's trust, a feat within itself, slowly and with patience drew Ennis to him in a way Ennis had never experienced before. All done in his own sensual way and Ennis found himself no longer able to deny Jack, Another man . IMO Jack did'nt really deny anything concerning what he wanted after FNIT and I think Ennis was pleasantly suprised though he tried unsuccessfully to deny what he felt. Jack somehow (not forced) created the dynamics , The driving force behind Ennis's life-altering experience of falling in love, really in love for the 1rst time. He knew, he never let anyone define him. sexually. He defined himself first. just as a person. Ennis saw, he liked , he followed. In that way, Jack won.IMHO.
Certainly it does seem easier to identify with Jack's situation since he is the one most feel was "wronged " but personally I indentify more with Ennis. I cannot relate to him in this situation in the film but I can relate to his personality traits in many ways. I understand how he got there. To me Jack has an inner strength that is envied. I admire his stamina and patience in dealing with this man., a wounded soul, Out of love to try to get Ennis to feel he can love himself for who he truly is , but unfortunatly Ennis's problems go deeper than he is able to comprehend. He can love Ennis but he cannot "mold" him into what or who he wants. Jack is indeed more open and accepting of himself and his sexuality than Ennis ever was. I think this is part of what drew Ennis to Jack. In a way I think Jack's charming ability to get *close' to people without much effort impressed Ennis greatly. No one had gotten that close enough to Ennis. because Ennis would'nt allow it. Only Jack broke through the wall as no one had before although he himself was *feeling* his own way through and living on assumptions at times. And I will include Alma here. It is Jack he looked to for completion. I think along with Jack and Ennis being physically attracted to each other as well as sexually, there was so much more there to be explored. Thanks.
Jack's sexuality is also problematic, but I find it much easier to empathize with it, not just because he epitomizes someone being "wronged"; rather, I think there is a level of acceptance in the way he nurtutes his love and the conflict that it embroils him in. He is not a thinker. He is of course a dreamer. But he is also someone who has a way of quietly accepting things, even as he struggles with his own uncertainties.
His a dream deferred.
Alot of us identify with Ennis's childhood traumas. When you grow up in a family where the father is super strict and has total and complete control , the children are forced to give up certain freedoms. perhaps this explains the withdrawn quiet, personality, and yes it makes you want to just give him a hug. I have always beleived that we all are a products of our envirement. I think as children and in Ennis's case , the parent/parents instill in the kids THEIR basic values. Not necessaily the child's. Standards are set. Beleifs are instilled and fear is ingrained to make it real to the child. In Ennis's case I feel he was *beaten down* mentally, emotionally, and probably pyhsically to follow rules and learned not to question them. I beleive he lost himself in that . It was ingrained in him that men like Jack are dealt with only in a violent way and had Ennis never met Jack and had the experience he had with him Ennis would have remained ( And yes, I'll say this ...a homophobe just like his father. Unfortunatly these teachings are passed down through generations . The loss of his father at that early age, may have been a blessing as well as a tradgedy in the sense that his father was no longer around to continue his process of turning Ennis into a carbon copy of himself, totally full of hate and bitterness. But..., enough damage had already been done , Ennis wanted to please Jack. He wanted to be "good" as his father threatened him to be. ( do not form any opinions for yourself , Just do and think as I do attitude ) . Thought it right to be submissive to society and go with what his father taught and showed him. well...his father was just wrong but Ennis carried all this fear into adulthood, He learned to hate gays from his dad. And he learned to fear the unfamiliar. Perhaps had he been shown that Earl and Ray were just two people who were in love, his own relationship with long-suffering Jack would not have been so fraught with Guilt and shame for loving who he wanted to love. He was shamed and unhappy as a child.In Jack's case, he was rejected by his father over and over," can't please my old man no how" His handling of rejection from Ennis was hard to take as it was from his father and it had to hurt, ( why don't you love and want me/) or the age old (What's wrong with ME? ) , but he continued to meet him whenever Ennis said. I think part of it was Jack's insatiable need to be accepted and loved. He never gave up trying to find answers though which is what I admire most in Jack . His determination to find love never waiverd .He was a dreamer but within them were goals that proved elusive. When he was at the end of his rope in that last confrontation, maybe a part of him , the part his father rejected was reaching out .Wanting a complete , protected life with Ennis comes into focus even more . With Ennis , his dream love ,could make it possible for him never be rejected again... So perhaps the traumas, these two suffered as children by the fathers made their connection stronger than they both realized. These two found each other , but did they really find themselves? :s) :s)They seemed to find what was missing finally..in each other. Does this make any sense? These thoughts are only MHO.
Maybe Ennis didn't remember much about his parents' relationship, but Jack had his in front of him whenever he was at home. Clearly John Twist had a pretty unemotional, uncommunicative relationship with his wife; possibly Jack reproduced that in his marriage to Lureen, with sex just there as a means of producing a child, and passion found elsewhere.
Jack never eliminated his father out his life, he went back to him. He couldn't please him, and he knew it, but he tried non the less. But how does this play in sexuality? Aren't we always trying to please our parents in one way or another, no matter if we are straight or gay. This dynamic doesn't determine one's sexual orientation, or am I wrong.
It is said that we are attracted to some aspect of parents in our lovers, is that the case with Jack? Ennis kept a lot of himself closed, but giving just enough to Jack to keep him coming back. "I can't please him no way", Jack said of his father, Jack did all he could to please Ennis, it still wasn't enough.
True, and I wonder too if Jack sought something out that he yearned but never fully found in his father. And Ennis provided it: unconditional love?
i think i would have to agree with tpe that jack spent his life looking for what his father never gave him, unconditional love. when he found that with ennis he didn't want to let it go.
Unconditional love? I don't know about that. Jack even during this long affair, still went outside of the relationship. Seeking something, his frustration, his longing still wasn't appeased or met. That "short leash" comment, was that just a dig at Ennis or was it how it really felt? That comment always bothered me, it implied that there was always limits that Ennis put on Jack, anyway, that's how it seemed to me. And Randall, in the background was in play, why would Randall even be in the picture?
If Ennis's love was unconditional, why didn't Jack feel it, know it, or even understand it? What was the disconnect between Jack and Ennis?
The day when Jack showed up at Ennis's after Ennis wrote of his divorce and Jack mistakenly went to him. This showed to me, anyway, that even Ennis's love for Jack, did have boundaries, and that only when he could handle it and control it. Ennis wasn't mentally ready for Jack to be there, it was uncomfortable, he was with daughters. Ennis saw Jack as a threat to the image he always wanted to project to the outside world. Was Ennis afraid of himself and that "thing" that lived inside him. Jack couldn't be there, he had to go, "next month like we planned", he tells Jack. It wasn't the right time, or the condition.
I feel jack was looking for acceptance too which he found in Ennis . Ennis did'nt expect nor want a Perfect partner in Jack He loved him just the way way he was . Goofy , charming and very engaging. These are traits opposite his father, but were just Jack being Jack. I think this is what drew Ennis to Jack and vice-verse. Both fathers robbed their sons of the freedom to just be. When they met on BBM, there was that sense of freedom to be themselves and to discover and be discovered by each other like they'd never known before. Almost like being born over again. A new life or beginning, so different from their miserable ,stifled and abusive childhoods. Jack's dad rejected his efforts to please him. Ennis's dad sounds like he just totally overwhelmed his son with fear, leaving Ennis with low confidence , an inability to find himself , and very little self esteem Both probably suffered at the hands of school peers , teachers, and other asscociates. When they were together on BBM, the slow, easy approach they took grew into a comfortable , accepting friendship first till Jack got an inkling that Ennis was open for more. then love. Jack not only got the response from Ennis he wanted and needed , but found himself in the position of the one being pleased BY Ennis in many ways and all he had to do was just be Jack. His dad never gave him that and he wanted to keep it. My opinion.
Hello manhattangirl. Perhaps I confused you a little. I was referring to Jack wanting unconditional love from his father. I am in the opinion that Jack was constantly striving to please his father -- to no avail -- and he perhaps felt less of a man because of it.
I never got that feeling Jack felt any less of a man, he did want the acceptance by his father of his manhood, but all boys want that from their father's. I don't know if you're implying because of this that it contributed to his sexuality or not? yes I'm confused.
This opens the subject of what Jack and Ennis experience each from their fathers and kind of men they eventually became. Is due the experience each from their fathers. Both men were violent and brutal men. Jack was abused by his father, Ennis father might have taken a part in murder, which he proudly displayed the murdered corpse to his nine year old son.
These experience alone can shape one's perception and value of human life, and maybe how they see themselves and the world outside.
The question I have, is what made Jack and Ennis the men they were, and why they clung to something that made whole human beings more so together than when they were apart, and the deep love they had for each other, and did their love have conditions or not?