Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[Matt Nasty]

I find any scene in which Jack is rejected to be hard to swallow.  However, this may be because Jake G. is playing the part.  Were the actor some less appealing person, less handsome, less engaging, it might not be so bad, but, then, we wouldn't all love Jack as much as we do, and the impact of the whole movie may have been different.

I keep wondering what I would think or how I would feel had I read the short story first, then seen the movie.  I think there would be a difference.  I would still feel for Jack, but would I be devastated by that scene?  Hmmmmmm......

youre saying we wouldnt like jack if he was played by  less attractive actor. what does that say for the straight fans of the film

[babytammy7]

Yeah, it's all guessing the number of angels that'll fit on the head of pin, so your right - we're both right. I was never any good at the bar pick-up scene anyway, so I'm sure no expert here on what Jack did do or shoulda' done to score, or whether he was even trying to score. It just looks like that to me and the clowns reaction made me think he thought the same thing too. I probably should of mentioned that I was possibly influenced by an earlier movie script in which the guys at the pool table actually follow Jack outside and begin taunting him while he drives off. This was wisely in my opinion NOT included in the film.

Oh my, that would have been so cruel. Cyn also told me a few days ago that she read too that earlier scrip and in it there was a scene outside Aguirre trailer where some tough guy of Signal tried to beat Jack 'cause Aguirre told some men about Jack.

As I said to her, life, especially Jack's life, is hard enough without punches, and also he had enough people laughing at him, so as you I think that it was wisely not included in the film. My heart is so broken, I don't need more cruelty. Poor Jack, what a terrible life, always being hated, and still he kept being so kind and sweet. He was so special indeed. He never lost the faith in human beings.     

[Matt Nasty]

Oh my, that would have been so cruel. Cyn also told me a few days ago that she read too that earlier scrip and in it there was a scene outside Aguirre trailer where some tough guy of Signal tried to beat Jack 'cause Aguirre told some men about Jack.

As I said to her, life, especially Jack's life, is hard enough without punches, and also he had enough people laughing at him, so as you I think that it was wisely not included in the film. My heart is so broken, I don't need more cruelty. Poor Jack, what a terrible life, always being hated, and still he kept being so kind and sweet. He was so special indeed. He never lost the faith in human beings.     

your words are true babytammy i can say hand on heart that i too love jack not in the way ennis did but i admire him as an amazing person

[lamusica]

youre saying we wouldnt like jack if he was played by  less attractive actor. what does that say for the straight fans of the film

Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou.  Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do.  The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story.  I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him.  Sorry if this does not sit well with you.  Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.

[manhattangirl]

Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou.  Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do.  The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story.  I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him.  Sorry if this does not sit well with you.  Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.

lamusica,

You bring up a very good question,  AP made it a point in describing Jack as being kind of a homely guy,  which for me made the love story so endearing and so painful.  It was story of of two regular guys, almost overlooked in a crowd, but had a love so large,  so deep, so beautiful it when past looks, but what lie beneath, that need and love for each other where no such thing was expected.

Let's face it this a hollywood movie, of course they would have Heath and Jake play those roles two very handsome and attractive men,  yes talented actors, but what if they had actors closer to AP description, would we straight or gay believe in this love, could we think it even possible, plausible?

Or do we have to dig deeper in ourselves to think that such a thing could even be possible, and still feel what feel today?

This may be way off topic, but this question always intrigued me, what do  you guys think? 

[ksxks]

I hate that one, too, but then I realized that scene just played out in Ennis's mind.  There's no proof that it really happened.  So, I choose to think it didn't.  You can call that avoidance but it works for me!

Me, too, lamusica.  I have never truly watched that scene attentively -- don't know when I will.  But from the first, like you, I saw it as Ennis's worse nightmare, that that's what would have happened to Jack.  Not that it did happen.  Works for me, too.  Except at the same time, I want people who might be ignorant of such hatred of gays to have that thrown in their face, that those people would do that to Jack, just for who he was.

kathy

[ksxks]

    Hi, Jackster---I could see the pick-up take more credible, except it was so open.  Whatever Jack may or may not have done that was
seductive with Ennis, before FNIT, it was in a closed, safe, environment.  Even in the alley in Mexico, he knew where he was, and was not
flamboyant.  With Randall, he just kind of sat there....duh.....on his face, then, very, very careful.  So all these others point to a Jack, whatever
his sexuality, that knew it had to be hidden.
   Why was the scene included, then?  Perhaps to show how he didn't fit in with the code of the west.  Why, please, was the scene included
where the guy describes him as a "piss-ant"?  If you question the one, then why not the other?
  I guess both takes are a dead-even stand-off.  Yours is supportable, and I believe mine is, too.  Best deal would be to say neither are established,
at least not in the sense, for example, that Jack made the first move in FNIT.
  What really brings me to my own conclusion are the long years I spent at the neighborhood taverns.  Jack's behavior would not have been seen
as a come-on.  The clown's response would have marked him as...a jerk.
  Even so, I will look much closer the next time I see the DVD.  You are observant, and there's stuff I may have missed.
 

I agree that under just RL circumstances, Jack's actions in the bar are just regular guy/bar behavior, totally.  I know bars, too, and guys in bars do hook up just to sit there and drink and say a few words.  But because of its being an integral scene, or Ang Lee wouldn't have put it in, I think it is there to intimate an attempted come-on by Jack, to show the danger he could so easily put himself in.  The way the rodeo clown went over to his pals and they all looked over at Jack, and the way Jack made a hasty retreat -- seems to me that's a clear meaning of the scene.  Especially as they didn't keep in the scene of the garage guys with the tire-irons.

kathy

[babytammy7]

lamusica,

You bring up a very good question,  AP made it a point in describing Jack as being kind of a homely guy,  which for me made the love story so endearing and so painful.  It was story of of two regular guys, almost overlooked in a crowd, but had a love so large,  so deep, so beautiful it when past looks, but what lie beneath, that need and love for each other where no such thing was expected.

Let's face it this a hollywood movie, of course they would have Heath and Jake play those roles two very handsome and attractive men,  yes talented actors, but what if they had actors closer to AP description, would we straight or gay believe in this love, could we think it even possible, plausible?

Or do we have to dig deeper in ourselves to think that such a thing could even be possible, and still feel what feel today?

This may be way off topic, but this question always intrigued me, what do  you guys think? 

Hi MG!!

I started a thread long time ago asking the same questions as you!! If you want to give it a try there it is:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=11940.0

[tpe]

I find any scene in which Jack is rejected to be hard to swallow.  However, this may be because Jake G. is playing the part.  Were the actor some less appealing person, less handsome, less engaging, it might not be so bad, but, then, we wouldn't all love Jack as much as we do, and the impact of the whole movie may have been different.

I keep wondering what I would think or how I would feel had I read the short story first, then seen the movie.  I think there would be a difference.  I would still feel for Jack, but would I be devastated by that scene?  Hmmmmmm......

Hmmmm....   I must admit that what you say here seems to apply to me also -- at least subliminally.  Although Jake is pretty much invisible to me as Jack, I can't help but agree with you that his magnetism does have an unconscious pull over my reactions to certain scenes (especially those "difficult" ones), and I would be a liar if I say otherwise.

[tpe]

Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou.  Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do.  The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story.  I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him.  Sorry if this does not sit well with you.  Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.

OT: In fact, wasn't there a recent study published in all the major papers (e.g., the NY Times) a few days ago about straight men invariably checking out other men who are potentially attractive to wives, girlfriends, or any other woman they might be involved with?    The study notes further that men do have a strong sense of  connoisseurship and appreciation for masculine beauty.

 

[Matt Nasty]

Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou.  Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do.  The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story.  I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him.  Sorry if this does not sit well with you.  Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.

sorry for my previouse post to you it sounded harsher then intended  . but i understand what you mean now anyway lol sorry

[tpe]

OT: zankou1991, I hope I speak for lamusica and everyone else that no apologies are needed.  In these threads, you can share your thoughts freely.  People may not agree, but that is beside the point.  What we want here is an exchange of ideas, and all points of view, presenteld well enough, are most appreciated.

[lamusica]

sorry for my previouse post to you it sounded harsher then intended  . but i understand what you mean now anyway lol sorry

Ditto to what tpe says above.
Keep posting, zankou, and keep on being true to yourself.  That's what we do around here.

[Matt Nasty]

OT: zankou1991, I hope I speak for lamusica and everyone else that no apologies are needed.  In these threads, you can share your thoughts freely.  People may not agree, but that is beside the point.  What we want here is an exchange of ideas, and all points of view, presenteld well enough, are most appreciated.

thanks tpe and lamusica its good to know i can speak freely hear

[Emzan]

I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? )
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter

[Matt Nasty]

I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? )
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter

hmmmm thats intresting i felt a bit the oposite of that. i think alma junior was bitter to cassie because she felt her not good enough for her father. i think alma jr is one of the few characters who would have been happy for ennis if his relationship with jack became clear

[Emzan]

hmmmm thats intresting i felt a bit the oposite of that. i think alma junior was bitter to cassie because she felt her not good enough for her father. i think alma jr is one of the few characters who would have been happy for ennis if his relationship with jack became clear

yea maybe, I still don't like her

[Matt Nasty]

yea maybe, I still don't like her

lol i didnt expect you would lol

[manhattangirl]

Alma, Jr. like Jack wanted more from Ennis than he was able to give.  Towards the end he conceded two things, he acknowledge his love for Jack, and giving more of himself to his daughter, after all these were the only two people that truly loved him for himself.

[Emzan]

Alma, Jr. like Jack wanted more from Ennis than he was able to give.  Towards the end he conceded two things, he acknowledge his love for Jack, and giving more of himself to his daughter, after all these were the only two people that truly loved him for himself.

that's true

[Matt Nasty]

Alma, Jr. like Jack wanted more from Ennis than he was able to give.  Towards the end he conceded two things, he acknowledge his love for Jack, and giving more of himself to his daughter, after all these were the only two people that truly loved him for himself.

good one manhattangirl very insightful

[lamusica]

I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? )
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter

I think we have to remember that, in the scene with Cassie, Alma, Jr. is a teen-ager seeing a woman make  a play for her daddy.  She's still hurting from the divorce, even though it happened several years ago.  In her mind, her dad belonged only with her mother, and, by extension, with her and her sister as a complete family unit.  So, ANY other woman would have been seen as an interloper.  I think she just showed a little jealousie that children feel when anyone else seems to want to get close to one of her parents.  They're always seen as an outsider trying to insinuate themselves between the parent and the child.  I don't think there was anything mean in Alma, Jr.'s intent.
     Later, when Alma, Jr. comes to tell Ennis about her up-coming marriage, I agree with you, zankou.  I feel that, at that moment, now that she is old enough to know what true love is, she would have been the one person who would have understood his feelings for Jack and would have supported them.  She would love to have seen her daddy be happy.  I love this scene because it shows how close Ennis and his daughter really were, eventhough they did not see each other very often.  They just had a tight bond of love.

[Matt Nasty]

I think we have to remember that, in the scene with Cassie, Alma, Jr. is a teen-ager seeing a woman make  a play for her daddy.  She's still hurting from the divorce, even though it happened several years ago.  In her mind, her dad belonged only with her mother, and, by extension, with her and her sister as a complete family unit.  So, ANY other woman would have been seen as an interloper.  I think she just showed a little jealousie that children feel when anyone else seems to want to get close to one of her parents.  They're always seen as an outsider trying to insinuate themselves between the parent and the child.  I don't think there was anything mean in Alma, Jr.'s intent.
     Later, when Alma, Jr. comes to tell Ennis about her up-coming marriage, I agree with you, zankou.  I feel that, at that moment, now that she is old enough to know what true love is, she would have been the one person who would have understood his feelings for Jack and would have supported them.  She would love to have seen her daddy be happy.  I love this scene because it shows how close Ennis and his daughter really were, eventhough they did not see each other very often.  They just had a tight bond of love.

you add so much dimension to my words lol my posts are flat compared to your version of the same point 

[tpe]

I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? )
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter

Interesting.  I somehow felt that she knew more about her dad, and was sorry for Cassie for what she didn't know.  It's interesting how we see the same scene quite differently, no?

[Emzan]

Interesting.  I somehow felt that she knew more about her dad, and was sorry for Cassie for what she didn't know.  It's interesting how we see the same scene quite differently, no?

very interesting, maybe she knew more about her dad, but why didn't she say something?

[Matt Nasty]

very interesting, maybe she knew more about her dad, but why didn't she say something?

well ennis wasnt to open about it he may have been offended by it. also she maybe was fearful other people would find out like the people who killed jack

[tpe]

very interesting, maybe she knew more about her dad, but why didn't she say something?

But she did, didn't she?  "Maybe he's not the marrying kind..."

[Emzan]

But she did, didn't she?  "Maybe he's not the marrying kind..."

maybe, but I always thought the she said that because she didn't like cassie, I don't know....

[tpe]

maybe, but I always thought the she said that because she didn't like cassie, I don't know....

Well, the phrase is vague enough to support both interpretations.  Perhaps the pharse meant BOTH at the same time. 

[Emzan]

Well, the phrase is vague enough to support both interpretations.  Perhaps the pharse meant BOTH at the same time. 

maybe but we will never know...