Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[shellyd]

... the guy who was not scared of tire irons like Ennis was....

Aw, don't you think that's being a little harsh on Ennis?  Jack and Ennis each suffered different kinds of childhood trauma.  Jack wasn't taken out to an irrigation ditch at the age of nine to see the mutilated and decomposing body of a gay man who had been beaten by a tire iron.  So, naturally he wouldn't have the same issues with tire irons as Ennis would.  Besides, I think Ennis's issues were much more complex than simply being "scared" of tire irons.  He wasn't simply some coward afraid of being beaten up.  His fears were more internal  -  he had been taught that being "queer" meant that he was "bad" and that was something to be ashamed of and so he could not accept that about himself.  Being raised the way he was and seeing the things he saw, that's completely understandable. 

I agree that Jack was strong and brave and tough.  But I also think that point can be made without putting Ennis down.   

[lancecowboy]

Boy o boy, what Pandora's box did we open up here? Firstly, loreen, you misunderstood my sentence about mustache, etc. It was rhetorical, pointing out to tpe the irony of the foremost Jack loving fan calling Jack too soft/feminine to be the iconic cowboy. I put those words in quotes, to emphasize that I was quoting tpe, in his usage, not of my own meaning or intention. You can read Tammy's post, who understood, and reacted as I did, but said so more beautifully and,  shall we say, emotionally?

I won't dwell on the stereotypical ideas of masculine and feminine, although one can argue the archetype of male and female in the collective consciousness put cowboys, especially the iconic strong silent stoic cowboys in the extreme end of the masculine spectrum, while the rodeo cowboys, with flair and show, drawing attention to themselves, and Jack's exhibiting empathy and tenderness in SNIT, after the bear incident, would put him closer to the feminine end, but I wouldn't move him much further than a tiny bit.

Returning to the topic of fear of love and the iconic cowboy, and tpe's idea of subversion, it occurred to me that if Ennis is the embodiment, the epitome of the iconic cowboy, then it is hardly likely that he was also subverting the iconic cowboy, or himself.

I looked up the word "subvert" in order to be certain that I understood it correctly:

1.   to overthrow (something established or existing).
2.   to cause the downfall, ruin, or destruction of.
3.   to undermine the principles of; corrupt.
Origin: 1325–75; ME subverten < L subvertere to overthrow, equiv. to sub- sub- + vertere to turn 
Related forms: sub⋅vert⋅er, noun
Synonyms: 1. upset, disrupt, undermine, overturn, sabotage.

I don't think Ennis overthrew the concept of the iconic cowboy, but rather, extended it to change the world's understanding of the icon. Instead of the romantic idealized cowboy without feelings, Ennis, as Heath portrayed him, took on the human dimensions, and made real with feelings and emotions. This "hidden" dimension was not new, but always there, but repressed and/or suppressed by the cowboy and/or society.

As Annie Proulx said herself concerning the origin of the Brokeback Mountain story, she was inspired by observing these old bachelor cowboys in a rural western bar, looking at the young cowboys playing pool. Then there are those real life stories from letters of people to Annie Proulx after they watched Brokeback Mountain, and told her that they were watching themselves on the screen, of their own cowboy experiences, or someone they knew.

I agree with you that Brokeback Mountain and Jack subverted the old idea of the iconic cowboy, but because Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, I rather think that he simply showed us the hidden dimension that we didn't know about. The old iconic cowboy was still true, but incomplete with a hidden side, the side that Heath in his genius showed to us, through Ennis.

And to bring it right back to fear of love, it was not only the homophobia that Ennis was hiding, it was also his fear of love and being loved that he hid all 'em years, ever since that first time in SNIT when he loved being held by Jack, when he loved holding Jack, when he sat in front of the fire, fighting the desire to experience love with his fear of love. Out there on the mountain in the middle of nowhere, his desire won, but sooner or later, his fear returns.

Only at the end, when it was too late, when there was no more need to fear, when his one true love was forever denied him, that he could embrace the love that he feared. Ennis could love only in the dreams, in memories, without the real love of his life to be there. Even sharing the love that he still had, with Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr, it was a love at a distance, not sharing it in his trailer, up close and personal. That is still the iconic cowboy, riding off into the sunset alone, into the distance.

[vedrana]

Aw, don't you think that's being a little harsh on Ennis?  Jack and Ennis each suffered different kinds of childhood trauma.  Jack wasn't taken out to an irrigation ditch at the age of nine to see the mutilated and decomposing body of a gay man who had been beaten by a tire iron.  So, naturally he wouldn't have the same issues with tire irons as Ennis would.  Besides, I think Ennis's issues were much more complex than simply being "scared" of tire irons.  He wasn't simply some coward afraid of being beaten up.  His fears were more internal  -  he had been taught that being "queer" meant that he was "bad" and that was something to be ashamed of and so he could not accept that about himself.  Being raised the way he was and seeing the things he saw, that's completely understandable. 

I agree that Jack was strong and brave and tough.  But I also think that point can be made without putting Ennis down.   

Ennis lover,   !

I have to admit that as much as I try - I will never be able to completely understand Ennis. I don't think that Tammy was putting him down - she just wanted to point out how brave Jack was! And he WAS brave!

And Ennis showed a certain cowardice... weather we want to admit that or not. No one can oppose though the theory of his childhood trauma!  That is so terrible thing for a young boy to go through and certainly left a scar in his mind and soul.

 

[vedrana]

Boy o boy, what Pandora's box did we open up here? Firstly, loreen, you misunderstood my sentence about mustache, etc. It was rhetorical, pointing out to tpe the irony of the foremost Jack loving fan calling Jack too soft/feminine to be the iconic cowboy. I put those words in quotes, to emphasize that I was quoting tpe, in his usage, not of my own meaning or intention.

I think that I understood...

Returning to the topic of fear of love and the iconic cowboy, and tpe's idea of subversion, it occurred to me that if Ennis is the embodiment, the epitome of the iconic cowboy, then it is hardly likely that he was also subverting the iconic cowboy, or himself.

***
I don't think Ennis overthrew the concept of the iconic cowboy, but rather, extended it to change the world's understanding of the icon. Instead of the romantic idealized cowboy without feelings, Ennis, as Heath portrayed him, took on the human dimensions, and made real with feelings and emotions. This "hidden" dimension was not new, but always there, but repressed and/or suppressed by the cowboy and/or society.

As Annie Proulx said herself concerning the origin of the Brokeback Mountain story, she was inspired by observing these old bachelor cowboys in a rural western bar, looking at the young cowboys playing pool. Then there are those real life stories from letters of people to Annie Proulx after they watched Brokeback Mountain, and told her that they were watching themselves on the screen, of their own cowboy experiences, or someone they knew.

I agree with you that Brokeback Mountain and Jack subverted the old idea of the iconic cowboy, but because Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, I rather think that he simply showed us the hidden dimension that we didn't know about. The old iconic cowboy was still true, but incomplete with a hidden side, the side that Heath in his genius showed to us, through Ennis.

And to bring it right back to fear of love, it was not only the homophobia that Ennis was hiding, it was also his fear of love and being loved that he hid all 'em years, ever since that first time in SNIT when he loved being held by Jack, when he loved holding Jack, when he sat in front of the fire, fighting the desire to experience love with his fear of love. Out there on the mountain in the middle of nowhere, his desire won, but sooner or later, his fear returns.

Only at the end, when it was too late, when there was no more need to fear, when his one true love was forever denied him, that he could embrace the love that he feared. Ennis could love only in the dreams, in memories, without the real love of his life to be there. Even sharing the love that he still had, with Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr, it was a love at a distance, not sharing it in his trailer, up close and personal. That is still the iconic cowboy, riding off into the sunset alone, into the distance.

I think that this is the truth - we had one cemented idea on the iconic cowboy, but Ennis just showed us that there was much more to it. And Jack was the one who made him open and who provoke that in the iconic cowboy. Makes sense! 

The bold part is lovely!

[jackster]

Boy o boy, what Pandora's box did we open up here? . . .

Masculine/Feminine – Ennis/Jack – oh boy, if that ain't the third rail of all Brokeback discussions don't know whut is. Ain't goin’ there, ain't gonna touch it. Certain death. We're all differn’t, and it's all good.
 
I got a mustache, it grows everyday, but I cut it off. Must be some sort of masochist, huh? We see Jack shaving his off in the opening scene, (right after his first eyefull of Ennis, he got the hot’s?) then later Ennis is shaving his off in front a’ Jack just before takin’ off his pants. Some hidden language here about being open to homo love? Ennis never does let his grow in, Jack finally does let his. What's it all mean, huh? Wanna’ start sumthin?
 

And to bring it right back to fear of love, it was not only the homophobia that Ennis was hiding, it was also his fear of love and being loved that he hid all 'em years,

Anyway, yup, fear of love. Seems as you say ol’ pal, it was Ennis's “fear of love and being loved” that was the root of the problem IMHO. I'd only add – Ennis's fear of, or maybe his inability to understand and recognise, his own deep love for Jack.

Love is a force of nature. Man against nature. Man in nature. Cowboys.

[vedrana]

Masculine/Feminine – Ennis/Jack – oh boy, if that ain't the third rail of all Brokeback discussions don't know whut is. Ain't goin’ there, ain't gonna touch it. Certain death. We're all differn’t, and it's all good.
 
I got a mustache, it grows everyday, but I cut it off. Must be some sort of masochist, huh? We see Jack shaving his off in the opening scene, (right after his first eyefull of Ennis, he got the hot’s?) then later Ennis is shaving his off in front a’ Jack just before takin’ off his pants. Some hidden language here about being open to homo love? Ennis never does let his grow in, Jack finally does let his. What's it all mean, huh? Wanna’ start sumthin?
 

 

Anyway, yup, fear of love. Seems as you say ol’ pal, it was Ennis's “fear of love and being loved” that was the root of the problem IMHO. I'd only add – Ennis's fear of, or maybe his inability to understand and recognise, his own deep love for Jack.

Love is a force of nature. Man against nature. Man in nature. Cowboys.

Good as always jackster!

To add: maybe it was also a fear of the belonging to someone, a fear to belonging to somewhere... a solitary couldn't accept that. Too near, too confusing, too caged... just too much!

[shellyd]

Ennis lover,   !

I have to admit that as much as I try - I will never be able to completely understand Ennis. I don't think that Tammy was putting him down - she just wanted to point out how brave Jack was! And he WAS brave!

And Ennis showed a certain cowardice... weather we want to admit that or not. No one can oppose though the theory of his childhood trauma!  That is so terrible thing for a young boy to go through and certainly left a scar in his mind and soul.

 

   I'm confused.  Did I say something funny?  Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"?  I'm not either.  I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl."   I understand them both and I sympathize with them both.  I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no?  I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters. 

I already said I thought Jack was brave.  Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that?  Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis?  Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition?  I don't understand that. 

[tpe]

you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"?  With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?

Sorry, it just struck me as funny/ironic.  But yes, Jack is more sympathetic/empathetic, like with little dogs and little lambs and little children (like Bobby), and also as a salesman. Great salesmen have to be empathetic to customer needs and wants without them verbalizing them. That's why Jack was the best combine salesman they got.

Jack was more the urban cowboy, while Ennis was the iconic cowboy.  Just my two cents worth.

We can agree to disagree on the finer point of who was doing subverting (Jack) and who was the subverted (Ennis). In a sense, this is like the top/bottom discussion. We don't have to agree on it. Art allows personal interpretation up to a point, which enriches it, rather than reduces it.

Thanks for the subversion concept in any case.

Perhaps those were not the right words to use.    What I had in mind was something more about yin/yang.    Even their favored colors suggest such a comparison.  I imagine Jack's colors as akin to the moon and the night.  It is a softer and more emotive element that I am noting here...

[tpe]

Jesus!!  I thought the same when I read Thomas post!!! 

Sorry Thomas, but I so completely disagree with you this time, babe. Jack was very emotional and sure he was a sweet guy when young, but Jack was a VERY strong man to stand all that pain during those 20 years and that hell that was his childhood.....Also he was very brave!! A bull rider, the guy who was not scared of tire irons like Ennis was, the guy who never cried in front of Ennis or was "weak" and romantic with him. Jack was not soft, just tender and understanding and he comforted Ennis when Ennis was the "soft" emotional one in the confrontation scene. Jack was mad and furious during that scene, but not soft, not even once; remember that he didn't even blink when Ennis told him that all the things Jack did could get him killed.....
That's about soft....About feminine.....THOMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Why did you said that? I just can't believe it!! Jack feminine? He was not any of that at 19, but sure he was all the opposite to feminine when he was 39!!! He looked/was manly and talked, walked and acted all man and all cowboy!!!!

There are million of straight men than are like Jack, and millions of straight women that are like Ennis and act like a stoic cowboy. Not fair to call feminine to someone who is not afraid to show what they are feeling, someone who is not ashamed of being in love.

Thomas....you deserve a spanking for this!!!   

Again, I see that my choice of words was not good, as it caused total confusion!     Note that I put "feminine" in quotes here.  It doesn't suggest that Jack is a pansy.  It suggest that he embodies the softer element in yin/yang.  But even this would probably cause more confusion, so that I will say it now that what I want to highlight here is Jack's soft/yielding qualities that make him so empathetic and sympathetic.

It should not be understood in a sexual/sexist POV.

 

 

[tpe]

I see that you put "feminine" and "soft" in the quotation marks, so I suppose that you mean -  >>regarded as "feminine"/"soft"<<.

Exactly. 

Both Ennis and Jack really have a feminine and a masculine side: Ennis is faithful (feminine), Jack is promiscuous (masculine), Ennis doesn't want to settle down with him (masculine), Jack wants home for 2 of them (feminine), Jack opposes LD and took the leading man role in the house (masculine), Ennis romantically waits for his only love - Jack (feminine), Jack always takes initiative (masculine), and Ennis follows (feminine), Jack drives 14 hours one way (masculine) and the princess Ennis is waiting in his home (feminine)....

Jack is also soft, but only in the positive meaning of that word - understanding, benevolent, comforting, caring. But his softness is not always good  - it cost him maybe even the "sweet life", coz he never showed a firm stand, a blackmailing attitude towards Ennis and his fears, to make him accept the offer for the common life. Still it is a very appealing part of his nature.   His opened expression of feelings is also soft and more feminine, but I don't take that as a label or as something negative.

So I think that "feminine"/"soft" is not a bad thing to say about Jack, coz part of his characteristics can really imply this estimation, (as well as Ennis's).

Very good points here.  Yes, one certainly can't generalize regarding this.  You are right to note that both DO EMBODY different aspects, and not just one.

[tpe]

Ennis lover,   !

I have to admit that as much as I try - I will never be able to completely understand Ennis. I don't think that Tammy was putting him down - she just wanted to point out how brave Jack was! And he WAS brave!

And Ennis showed a certain cowardice... weather we want to admit that or not. No one can oppose though the theory of his childhood trauma!  That is so terrible thing for a young boy to go through and certainly left a scar in his mind and soul.

 

  I'm confused.  Did I say something funny?  Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"?  I'm not either.  I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl."   I understand them both and I sympathize with them both.  I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no?  I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters. 

I already said I thought Jack was brave.  Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that?  Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis?  Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition?  I don't understand that. 

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here.  But to be sure, shellyd points out rightly that we don't necessarily have to be for one or the other specifically.

On the subject of the "fear of love", it is certanly something that we see embodied in Ennis in the scene under consideration.  My original point was that Jack's empathetic or "soft" qualities allowed him to reach out to Ennis at that critical moment.  I think Ennis understood this, but didn't know how to respond, and his violent reaction speaks of his confusion, and not just his deep fears.

[vedrana]

  I'm confused.  Did I say something funny?  Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"?  I'm not either.  I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl."   I understand them both and I sympathize with them both.  I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no?  I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters. 

I already said I thought Jack was brave.  Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that?  Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis?  Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition?  I don't understand that. 

It was more cute than funny  !

It is my opinion that Ennis was a coward in a certain situations and up to a level, but to remember Jack's fear when it comes to Ennis' rejection, IMO is also a form of cowardice.

Anyway, I agree that we're not supposed to confront two of them, but we can compare them, coz I believe that even some of us love e.g. Jack more  - than Ennis is also in our heart as deep as it was in Jack's heart. We can not love Jack without Ennis and vice versa. They were so opposite to each other, but at the same time so compatible, that we are trying to find that magic formula that kept them together for so long time.

Am I too OT??

[vedrana]

 

It is impossible to cook a lunch and to post a reply! Until I finished - tpe was all over the thread! 

Now I have to check your posts again! 

 

[tpe]

It is impossible to cook a lunch and to post a reply! Until I finished - tpe was all over the thread! 

Now I have to check your posts again! 

 

OT: that's OK.  You can respond in your own time... 

[babytammy7]

Aw, don't you think that's being a little harsh on Ennis?  Jack and Ennis each suffered different kinds of childhood trauma.  Jack wasn't taken out to an irrigation ditch at the age of nine to see the mutilated and decomposing body of a gay man who had been beaten by a tire iron.  So, naturally he wouldn't have the same issues with tire irons as Ennis would.  Besides, I think Ennis's issues were much more complex than simply being "scared" of tire irons.  He wasn't simply some coward afraid of being beaten up.  His fears were more internal  -  he had been taught that being "queer" meant that he was "bad" and that was something to be ashamed of and so he could not accept that about himself.  Being raised the way he was and seeing the things he saw, that's completely understandable. 

I agree that Jack was strong and brave and tough.  But I also think that point can be made without putting Ennis down.   

  I'm confused.  Did I say something funny?  Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"?  I'm not either.  I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl."   I understand them both and I sympathize with them both.  I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no?  I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters. 

I already said I thought Jack was brave.  Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that?  Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis?  Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition?  I don't understand that. 

Jesus, where did you get I was putting Ennis down? I love both of our boys and I am very fierce and protective about them. People here know me enough to know that I’ve NEVER said a bad word about Ennis or about Jack, and I tent to get wild when someone says that one of our boys is better than the other. Poor Loreen here knows what was my reaction when she said that Ennis suffered more than Jack (sorry Loreen, babe  ), because I think about our boys with the same respect and admiration and DEVOTION.
My intention was not to say that Jack was brave by saying that Ennis was not. But I needed to make a comparison there because my fellows brokies were “comparing” Jack “feminine” side to Ennis manly side. So yeah, a comparison was needed. I tried to show that if Jack being caring and understanding means that he’s “feminine”, then Ennis being afraid of tire irons means that he’s feminine too. I was not saying that Ennis was a coward, I was not saying that Jack was braver. I was trying to say that they both were strong and real men, but also that they both had fears, weak points and a softer side. I was just putting an example by comparing two sides of the SAME coin: if Jack was soft because he begged Ennis to live with him or because he was more emotional and chatty type than Ennis, then Ennis was soft too because he was afraid of things that Jack was not. That’s all. I was trying to said that it’s ok that our boys had a softer side and it didn’t mean that they were feminine. I didn’t say anything bad about Ennis, didn’t try to. Only tried to show that our two boys have a more tender side and a “cowboy macho” side and that both were different and that just like we respect Ennis fears we have to respect Jack’s emotional side. I was asking for identical respect and for objectivity and not trying to put Ennis down. I didn’t say that Ennis was afraid of tire irons in a harsh pejorative way. I mean, I was not judgging him, and if you read my post again you’ll see I didn’t say that being afraid of tire irons was something bad or weak or horrible or wrong. I was just stating an objective fact, a reality: Ennis was afraid of tire irons, the same way that it’s a fact that Jack wanted to live with Ennis or that he had sex with other men. I was not saying what was right or wrong. I was just trying to show that both our boys personalities were not black or white but all the colors in between.

I’ve NEVER pit or tried to pit them against each other in some kind of competition, not here, not at LJ, not any forum, and I ask you, please, to not say that about me, because I’ve had very passionate words with fellows brokies just because I can’t stand people who put our boys in a kinda competition. And yeah, I couldn’t make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis: 1. because of what I said above. 2. because we are discussing about both men, Ennis and Jack, we are talking about them both, so I needed to talk about both, and Thomas was comparing Jack’s feminine side and Ennis manly side, so I needed Ennis there too to make the comparison the other way around, to show that they both had two sides, soft and strong, just like every human being. 3. because maybe I can’t express myself like I wish, or maybe because I don’t speak English and I have not a way with words, so I couldn’t find a better way to say what I was trying to say.

I am truly sorry if I said something that offended you.  But you also was unfair saying I was harsh on Ennis. Please, go and read other threads and then come back and re read my post. I am sure you won’t think anymore that I was harsh, the way I talk about both our boys, my boys. You write about what I meant, without knowing if I love Ennis or not, without knowing what I was thinking or feeling, without knowing if maybe I can’t write things right because I don’t speak English. You just judged me...funny because you were asking not to judge Ennis and you did the same with me.

[lancecowboy]

goodness gracious  I knew a Pandora's box got opened, but a whole page worth of posts in half a day.  There's no reins on this one.

Firstly, no worries, loreen, it's easy to jump to conclusion in the heat of the moment reading something so near and dear to us, and my rhetorical tendencies don't help none.

Secondly, Tammy baby  you didn't call Ennis a coward, you simply say Jack wasn't afraid of the tire iron, the symbol of social oppression, and true enough Ennis internalized that oppression into homophobia, in fact, perhaps because it resonates so much with his own innate fear of love.

And, shellyd  to the discussion. Feel free to jump in, and please don't take offense or too personal our discussion. We are all friends discussing what we love.

tpe,  you started all this  I like the ying/yang comparison because it's true enough, I think. I understood what you meant, in terms of "more feminine than Ennis" but even that is unsatisfactory, as you said, the word "feminine" simple carries so much connotation in our deep seated prejudice of what a man and woman should be. In a sense, this relates to our preconception of the iconic cowboy's embodiment of masculinity without any feminine traits, hence the supposedly lack of feelings and emotions and love, or at least feeling emotions with a masculine twang. I like the sun/moon metaphor, but Ennis is also a receiver reflecting the love that Jack threw out at him from the beginning, so I can't say Jack is the moon, either. All in all, I'd say the two are like two shirts fitting one inside the other. They both have an outside and an inside, and they both can be the top/bottom...but I won't go there.  Just saying, it's all.

Last but not least, Jackster, bud. 

[...]
Anyway, yup, fear of love. Seems as you say ol’ pal, it was Ennis's “fear of love and being loved” that was the root of the problem IMHO. I'd only add – Ennis's fear of, or maybe his inability to understand and recognise, his own deep love for Jack.

Love is a force of nature. Man against nature. Man in nature. Cowboys.

Love that red part. Love. Cowboys. Nature. 

[shellyd]

Good grief.  I guess I made a mistake in posting, but I'll try to make amends and explain and then I'm going to back out slowly and carefully. 

Tammy, I thought my post was polite, direct and civil.  I never personally attacked you or anyone else. All I said was that I thought pointing out that Ennis was "scared of tire irons" was a "little harsh" and I still do because the comparison doesn't make sense to me no matter how you've explained it, and as I tried to explain in my original post - I don't think that the "tire irons" themselves were Ennis's real fear and I know that's not the common perception, but it's mine. It's like comparing apples to oranges to say that Jack didn't have a fear of tire irons.  And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that it's necessary to make comparisons between them when trying to "defend" one or the other in any case.  I didn't think your post in defense of Jack's toughness and bravery, etc. was enhanced at all by mentioning Ennis and the tire irons.  That's my opinion and I don't think I was rude in expressing it.  I'm very sorry you felt personally attacked.  That is never my intention.    Saying that I thought it was "a little harsh" is NOT the same as I saying I don't believe you love Ennis.  You didn't say anything to offend me - and I'm not sure where you got that impression from my post.  I didn't say anything about being personally offended - I thought I was making a pretty objective statement about Ennis and the source of his trauma and resulting issues and how both Jack and Ennis are very complex.  That's not the same as being personally offended.

I also think you're confusing my response to your post and my response to Loreen's post.  You quoted both of my responses and replied to both.  I never said that you called a Ennis a coward or that you pitted them against each other.  But Loreen did indeed call Ennis a coward and I did respond to HER post.  She also made the assumption, I guess based on her own feelings or maybe on a general tendency that she's seen, that I favored one character over the other.  I don't.   I know a lot of people do and that's fine, it's a visceral reaction and there's nothing wrong with that. 

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here.  But to be sure, shellyd points out rightly that we don't necessarily have to be for one or the other specifically.

Thank you for understanding this.  I know it's very common for people to point out that they are "a Jack girl" or an "Ennis girl" (or Jack boy or Ennis boy), and as I said, there's nothing wrong with that.  But I do think that when someone is more emotionally invested in one character or the other or identifies more strongly with one character or another, that they might not be as objective as they could be in viewing the story and their actions.  It doesn't mean they don't love both of them, but when you have a favorite anything it's almost impossible to view things without that entering into it, as much as we might try. 

And, shellyd  to the discussion. Feel free to jump in, and please don't take offense or too personal our discussion. We are all friends discussing what we love.

Thank you, lancecowboy.  I wasn't offended and I didn't take it personally, but I think I've offended others and they did take it personally and I'm sorry for that, so I think, as I said, I'll back out slowly now!  I guess I like to look at the story a little differently, maybe NOT as emotionally, and that might be the problem. 

Anyways, sorry for all the misunderstandings. 

[lancecowboy]

[...]
Thank you for understanding this.  I know it's very common for people to point out that they are "a Jack girl" or an "Ennis girl" (or Jack boy or Ennis boy), and as I said, there's nothing wrong with that.  But I do think that when someone is more emotionally invested in one character or the other or identifies more strongly with one character or another, that they might not be as objective as they could be in viewing the story and their actions.  It doesn't mean they don't love both of them, but when you have a favorite anything it's almost impossible to view things without that entering into it, as much as we might try. 

Thank you, lancecowboy.  I wasn't offended and I didn't take it personally, but I think I've offended others and they did take it personally and I'm sorry for that, so I think, as I said, I'll back out slowly now!  I guess I like to look at the story a little differently, maybe NOT as emotionally, and that might be the problem. 

Anyways, sorry for all the misunderstandings. 

No worries, shellyd  You explain things real well. I won't quote all of it, but I like what you said about our own perceptions enter into how we see things. It's so true. I try to be objective and put myself outside of my Ennis bias, but very often, especially when I first watched Brokeback Mountain over a year and half ago, I saw the movie and everything through Ennis' point of view, and added my own prejudices from my own personal experiences. It's human nature and it took me a long time to get over it, and also tested a lot of understanding patience from the people in this forum, for which I am always grateful.

I hope you will continue to post, and more often. Your objectivity has a lot to contribute to the discussion. It would be poorer without you. 

But back to topic, with regard to the tire iron, you say that it is not possible to compare Ennis' fear of the tire iron with Jack's bravery etc. I think in a way, the tire iron is a symbol of society's homophobia, and Jack was indeed braver than Ennis, standing up to oppression, whether in the form of violence, or Aquierre's ridicule (verbal or just implied) and the ostracism of his peers and old man Newsome. Ennis knuckled under the weight of the oppression in his youthful past, and welcomed Jack's bravado. I think the source of Jack's courage comes from his Ma, her compassion and unconditional love, which Ennis had a taste of in the kitchen when he visited Lightning Flat. The same love that gave Jack courage to be his own man, without apology to the world, was the catalyst that gave Ennis the courage to accept the love offered, and embrace it, to overcome the fear of love that plagued him all his life. So, yes, I think the tire iron is very relevant, not as a physical instrument of violence, but as a symbolic instrument of oppression, intimidation, fear and self-loathing internalized by Ennis. Brokeback Mountain the love story is about Jack's courage facing it, and Ennis' liberation from it.

Just my take.

[vedrana]

On the subject of the "fear of love", it is certanly something that we see embodied in Ennis in the scene under consideration.  My original point was that Jack's empathetic or "soft" qualities allowed him to reach out to Ennis at that critical moment.  I think Ennis understood this, but didn't know how to respond, and his violent reaction speaks of his confusion, and not just his deep fears.

I think that things are very complex (as shellyd said) - confusion, fear, sadness for leaving Brokeback... so many feelings were in Ennis. he couldn't deal with them and he just explode in the moment when Jack was offering his love and comfort ... Damn! 

[vedrana]

tpe,  you started all this  I like the ying/yang comparison because it's true enough, I think. I understood what you meant, in terms of "more feminine than Ennis" but even that is unsatisfactory, as you said, the word "feminine" simple carries so much connotation in our deep seated prejudice of what a man and woman should be. In a sense, this relates to our preconception of the iconic cowboy's embodiment of masculinity without any feminine traits, hence the supposedly lack of feelings and emotions and love, or at least feeling emotions with a masculine twang. I like the sun/moon metaphor, but Ennis is also a receiver reflecting the love that Jack threw out at him from the beginning, so I can't say Jack is the moon, either. All in all, I'd say the two are like two shirts fitting one inside the other. They both have an outside and an inside, and they both can be the top/bottom...but I won't go there.  Just saying, it's all.

Lance, first the bad news : Maybe we should be less prejudicial to understand the word "feminine" which I believed can be applied to both of them. Believe it or not - "feminine" is not bad at all.... I can tell you that! ... even when it comes to our cowboys! 

Then - a good news: Looove the green part! 

[vedrana]

I also think you're confusing my response to your post and my response to Loreen's post.  You quoted both of my responses and replied to both.  I never said that you called a Ennis a coward or that you pitted them against each other.  But Loreen did indeed call Ennis a coward and I did respond to HER post.  She also made the assumption, I guess based on her own feelings or maybe on a general tendency that she's seen, that I favored one character over the other.  I don't.   I know a lot of people do and that's fine, it's a visceral reaction and there's nothing wrong with that. 

Shellyd  !

Yup, I was sure that you're Ennis's lover, but you made it clear the you love both equaly. There are a lots of us who are more attached to one of them, but as I said - we can not love one without loving the other. It would be like cutting the branch of the tree. They belong together - in their lives and in our hearts. I am sure that all of us here think the same.

And please, don't be sorry for posting - it is good to have more opinions! 

Anyway, I hope to see ya around!

[vedrana]

I hope you will continue to post, and more often. Your objectivity has a lot to contribute to the discussion. It would be poorer without you. 

I agree! 

But back to topic, with regard to the tire iron, you say that it is not possible to compare Ennis' fear of the tire iron with Jack's bravery etc. I think in a way, the tire iron is a symbol of society's homophobia, and Jack was indeed braver than Ennis, standing up to oppression, whether in the form of violence, or Aquierre's ridicule (verbal or just implied) and the ostracism of his peers and old man Newsome. Ennis knuckled under the weight of the oppression in his youthful past, and welcomed Jack's bravado. I think the source of Jack's courage comes from his Ma, her compassion and unconditional love, which Ennis had a taste of in the kitchen when he visited Lightning Flat. The same love that gave Jack courage to be his own man, without apology to the world, was the catalyst that gave Ennis the courage to accept the love offered, and embrace it, to overcome the fear of love that plagued him all his life. So, yes, I think the tire iron is very relevant, not as a physical instrument of violence, but as a symbolic instrument of oppression, intimidation, fear and self-loathing internalized by Ennis. Brokeback Mountain the love story is about Jack's courage facing it, and Ennis' liberation from it.

Just my take.

Sometimes I forgot how good your posts can be! 

[vedrana]

 Poor Loreen here knows what was my reaction when she said that Ennis suffered more than Jack (sorry Loreen, babe  ), because I think about our boys with the same respect and admiration and DEVOTION.
 

 

Uh , I forgot to say - it's OK!

I take all our posts as an expression of admiration for BBM! Otherwise we won't be here! 

[lancecowboy]

  Loreen, you misunderstood my point about the connotations of the word feminine. I did not say that they are "BAD" connotations, just meanings of the word, interpretation that we associate with the word, as tpe suggested, soft, empathetic, emotional. The are not BAD at all. In fact, it is exactly my point, that Heath embraced those words in his portrayal of Ennis at the last few scenes, extending the iconic cowboy to be not just the masculine stoic strong silent suffering stereotype, but the more human, more humane, more feeling, more loving, more understanding of self and others, more aware of the emotions within and of others. That's why I disagree with tpe's assertion that Ennis subverted the iconic cowboy. My assertion is that Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, and the embodiment of all that we associate with it, including the hidden dimensions that are "feminine" traditionally, but now, as anyone who has seen Brokeback Mountain and understand its implications cannot deny, the iconic cowboy is a fuller personification of real humanity, a side that is even more admirable than the old western cowboys who were less developed, character-wise.

I hope that clarifies my meaning.  And thank you for the kind words. I will have to write more often, so you will NEVER forget how well I write.   

[vedrana]

Loreen, you misunderstood my point about the connotations of the word feminine. I did not say that they are "BAD" connotations, just meanings of the word, interpretation that we associate with the word, as tpe suggested, soft, empathetic, emotional. The are not BAD at all. In fact, it is exactly my point, that Heath embraced those words in his portrayal of Ennis at the last few scenes, extending the iconic cowboy to be not just the masculine stoic strong silent suffering stereotype, but the more human, more humane, more feeling, more loving, more understanding of self and others, more aware of the emotions within and of others. That's why I disagree with tpe's assertion that Ennis subverted the iconic cowboy. My assertion is that Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, and the embodiment of all that we associate with it, including the hidden dimensions that are "feminine" traditionally, but now, as anyone who has seen Brokeback Mountain and understand its implications cannot deny, the iconic cowboy is a fuller personification of real humanity, a side that is even more admirable than the old western cowboys who were less developed, character-wise.

I hope that clarifies my meaning.  And thank you for the kind words. I will have to write more often, so you will NEVER forget how well I write.   

Yup! That clarifies it.

And, yup! Please write more! You funny Lance! 

[atalley]

I have been thinking about your subversion concept, tpe, and here is what I think.

In a sense, Jack and Ennis are the ying and yang of the cowboy stereotype: Jack, the rodeo cowboy who thrives in the limelight, who is the life of the party, the best salesman, and Ennis, the quiet devoted hard working solitary figure who knows what to do and how to do all things around the ranch, fixing the engine, pitching the tent, shooting the elk, cooking and protecting the sheep. That's what makes them perfect together, not competing with each other, but respectful of the other.

To me, Brokeback Mountain and Jack are definitely subversive of the iconic cowboy, but Ennis was the iconic cowboy that was subverted. He was the solitary figure content with nothing and beans. Jack was the rodeo cowboy more interested in belt buckles than doing the work around the camp. Jack was the one who wanted more than a few high attitude f@#$ks a few times a year. Jack was the one whose love kept their relationship going for twenty years. As far as Ennis was concerned, they could have left it on Brokeback that summer, and he would've been just fine with Alma and the girls...not passionately happy pawing the white from the moon, perhaps, but fine nonetheless. It was because of Jack, that he was like that, with nothing, a nobody without him, brooding in the bar alone, drinking beer after beer, like any iconic cowboy would. That's what the short story led to, the lonely Ennis living in an empty run down trailer.

I think it was Heath's genius to transform that miserable figure from the short story to the radiant symbol of an iconic cowboy made human, extending the strength and silence to embrace the frailty and sentiments of a man capable of love. So the answer to my earlier question, whether fear of love is innate to the iconic cowboy, is affirmative, but Heath's genius changed that, and made it possible to be a solitary self-reliant cowboy, with feelings. That's why Brokeback Mountain resonates with so many, and why Heath deserved an Academy Award for his performance. It was ground-breaking not because of the gay issue, but because of the fundamental American mystique of the cowboy and love. The fearlessness of Heath drove out the fear of love in the cowboy.

Heath turned a subverted cowboy into a new hero, for me.

  Andrew...I think you know Ennis much better than you admit.  I'm ready to read your next Fanfic whenever you're ready to  "mull it over" & put it into words!

[atalley]

Shellyd  !

Yup, I was sure that you're Ennis's lover, but you made it clear the you love both equaly. There are a lots of us who are more attached to one of them, but as I said - we can not love one without loving the other. It would be like cutting the branch of the tree. They belong together - in their lives and in our hearts. I am sure that all of us here think the same.

And please, don't be sorry for posting - it is good to have more opinions! 

Anyway, I hope to see ya around!

Thanks Loreen!  Good post..."they belong together-in their lives & in our hearts..."

[tpe]

tpe,  you started all this  I like the ying/yang comparison because it's true enough, I think. I understood what you meant, in terms of "more feminine than Ennis" but even that is unsatisfactory, as you said, the word "feminine" simple carries so much connotation in our deep seated prejudice of what a man and woman should be. In a sense, this relates to our preconception of the iconic cowboy's embodiment of masculinity without any feminine traits, hence the supposedly lack of feelings and emotions and love, or at least feeling emotions with a masculine twang. I like the sun/moon metaphor, but Ennis is also a receiver reflecting the love that Jack threw out at him from the beginning, so I can't say Jack is the moon, either. All in all, I'd say the two are like two shirts fitting one inside the other. They both have an outside and an inside, and they both can be the top/bottom...but I won't go there.  Just saying, it's all.

I am very contrite.     

But I admit that the contrats did occur to me early on, and their respective colors and shades seem to lend support to this view, don't you think?

Yes, unfortunately, terms are perhaps too loaded for many of us.  I should try to find a more objective term that is not too obscure. 

But going back to the fight scene, I find it interesting that Ennis was totally not in "control" of himself -- in marked contrast to his normal/usual self.  (The other great exception is of course the Reunion kiss.)  Jack certainly seemed more in control of himself, although he didn't try to dismiss Ennis's feelings and tried his best to cheer his friend up.   In this, we see again see Jack in a "softer" light, as much as we see Ennis in a more intense, "explosive" one...

 

[babytammy7]

Huh, I think I disagree here…

Ennis can seem to be a very stoic, silent, in control cowboy, but for me he’s a ticking time-bomb. We don’t only see him lose control in the confrontation scene or in the reunion scene. He also lost control in the Thanksgiving scene (with Alma and then the truck driver), FNIT and in the fireworks scene. He’s very passionate and impulsive and I think that’s his real nature, but he was taught to hide his feelings and real self, and that’s why he looked like a typical cowboy but I never bought that. Ennis is able to show the greatest tenderness, and also he’s fierce when showing love, and I don’t think that a typical cowboy man could display such a rainbow of feelings.

Also, you say that Jack was in control here, but I can’t see it. Jack is always kind with Ennis, even when Ennis is shooting his plane out of the sky. I mean, Ennis said not to the sweet life in the reunion scene and Jack caressed Ennis ear. Ennis sent him away in the divorce scene and Jack didn’t bitch, didn’t fight, didn’t complain or say a bad word. There he was in control till he started to cry....
Even after Ennis punched him up on Brokeback Jack was calm, in self control.....understanding. Then, when Ennis mocked him about moving to Texas, Jack stormed away and didn’t complain much.

But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.

For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.

This view of our cowboys is also new for me....I started to feel like this one month ago....and still I have to explore this more deeply....I don't even know if this make sense...and I know you all don't share this idea with me....

[lancecowboy]

Huh, I think I disagree here…

Ennis can seem to be a very stoic, silent, in control cowboy, but for me he’s a ticking time-bomb. We don’t only see him lose control in the confrontation scene or in the reunion scene. He also lost control in the Thanksgiving scene (with Alma and then the truck driver), FNIT and in the fireworks scene. He’s very passionate and impulsive and I think that’s his real nature, but he was taught to hide his feelings and real self, and that’s why he looked like a typical cowboy but I never bought that. Ennis is able to show the greatest tenderness, and also he’s fierce in love, and I don’t think that a typical cowboy man could display such a rainbow of feelings.

Very interesting thoughts, Tammy. On the one hand, I agree with you that Ennis is passion suppressed beneath a layer of stoicism, and finds opportunities to erupt, either in anger or in love; on the other hand, I think the question here is whether a "typical cowboy" or the "iconic cowboy" has these fierce rainbow of feelings. My contention is that they do, and the suppression is realistic, and Heath made Ennis the real typical cowboy in spite of our prejudices of what real cowboys should be, and in the cases of people with PBS, changed those prejudices.

Also, you say that Jack was in control here, but I can’t see it. Jack is always kind with Ennis, even when Ennis is shooting his plane out of the sky. I mean, Ennis said not to the sweet life in the reunion scene and Jack caressed Ennis ear. Ennis sent him away in the divorce scene and Jack didn’t bitch, didn’t fight, didn’t complain or say a bad word. There he was in control till he started to cry....
Even after Ennis punched him up on Brokeback Jack was calm, in self control.....understanding. Then, when Ennis mocked him about moving to Texas, Jack stormed away and didn’t complain much.

But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.

For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.

Beautifully said, Tammy. Ennis and Jack also evolved at different times in the film, as you said, after the divorce, the riverside moving to Texas discussion, etc. It is why I don't agree with tpe's male/female split of the two. Ennis and Jack really are soul mates with no distinctions between the maleness and femaleness of either. They are one role then another, switching constantly.  When we impose outside world standards to them individually, they fall apart. Together without the world, they are just one living breathing couple.

This view of our cowboys is also new for me....I started to feel like this one month ago....and still I have to explore this more deeply....I don't even know if this make sense...and I know you all don't share this idea with me....

Thanks for sharing Tammy.  It's beautiful.