Author Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?  (Read 191134 times)

Offline Tony

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     Sometimes, it seems that many Brokies have reconstructed a whole new version to Ennis and Jack outside Aguirre's trailer:
Jack:  Hmmm..... this guy fits the bill for what I've been hankering for, and I'm a-gonna git him, whether he knows it or not.....
Ennis:  As a repressed homosexual, I've noticed Jack ain't that bad looking, but, things being what they are, me being shy and all, it'll take some doing
          before I get around to boinging him.
    In short, some number of Brokies see sexual love at first sight and suppose they should have gone behind the trailer, stripped down, and ravished each other.  You know who you are.  You're just not going to admit it.
   But in another thread, of Aintfoolin's, we've gone into Ennis being a loner, and have some agreement there.  Annie Proulx has Ennis riding off, very early, believing he'd finally found....a friend.  No sex mentioned.  There is some strong evidence that Ennis went from a deeply-needed friendship, to sex, and then to romantic love.  Jack, maybe, was sub-consciously toying with all three, very early (Annie does have him as inexperienced).
  So the areas we might explore are, the progression of one to the next, in each, and what was the FINAL mixture?  For instance, had Ennis internalized the final mixture of friendship love and romantic love, and left the sex a shabby but significant third, allowing him to survive on sex twice a year?  Was that a part of the problem?  In fact, did the love, for Ennis, greatly outrank the sex (desirable as that was)?
  And what about the "signals" given, before FNIT?  Come on ---were they ALL sexual? Tentatively probing?  Or was it just natural for Ennis to wash up off a bit, in distance, from a buddy?
  Usually, when my threads are bug-splat on the windshield, it's because the introduction was too messy, so, will try again:  Friendship was an unusually strong force for these two as --they had few friends.  Sex was something that Jack was able to broaden out past Ennis, as an independently existing need (sex with another male).  Romantic love, in the film, seemed to be fully born in SNIT, for both, but hidden somewhat, from fear.
These are 3 different categories: friendship, love, and sex.  How did they interweave, and, if imbalanced, was that part of the troubles?

manhattangirl

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 05:15 PM »
If I understand you correctly, Tony.  There was a progression from friendship to sex to love.  Both Ennis and Jack craved friendship.   Ennis living a life of set rules, after his parents death from his sister to brother to marriage, his life was pretty much lonely, and with a almost self imposed exile from displaying his emotion, but still  had a clear plan of what he was suppose to do.  Jack living with an abusive father and passive, but loving mother, pretty much bounce around the country, from herding jobs to rodeos, "..and he was crazy to be somewhere anywhere else than Lightning Flats."     Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other,  unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other.

And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them.  Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand.  And that's how we see it,  Jack started this whole thing.  But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand.  Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?   Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it.  Was he being seen as man,a complete man,  I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him.  This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely. 

I hope this kind of hitting on what you want.  I don't know?  But this is gonna be fun.

Tony another great thread thanks.

Offline Tony

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 06:21 PM »

And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them.  Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand.  And that's how we see it,  Jack started this whole thing.  But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand.  Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?   Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it.  Was he being seen as man,a complete man,  I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him.  This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely. 



    Of course, Manhattangirl, that's exactly where I wanted to go.  On this forum, 2 years later, we are still developing new information and insights, and I hope exploring friendship>sex>romantic love, as the start, and then the balances and imbalances  later, works as a means to try for more.
   I do believe my own reaction to FNIT was different from most other people's.  I saw Jack as having found the first real friend he'd ever had and wanting to lock that in and "compromise" Ennis, by sex.  ANY sex (because the type of sex wasn't immediately settled on).  And I saw Ennis as confused, and seeing his own loneliness exposed and saying, by shoving Jack into position:  "You want to end my loneliness?  This is the price."  Harsh.  Except, as it turned out, they both kinda sorta got lucky as Jack discovered he LIKED that particular price.
  I also see a triple hit: first real friendship; the sex...worked (FNIT), and romantic love roared out and over them (to use your words) in SNIT. One unexpected punch after another.
  As for the progression in each, individually, am not sure.  You mention when Jack wiped the blood off of Ennis' forehead.  And that tenderness looked to me like Jack had jumped from friendship to romantic love, before the sex.  That was a very tender scene, up close.
 But there still would be 3 separate categories through the years: friendship (riding through the streams), sex (always there, at every meeting up), and romantic love, breaking through, at times.  What was the mixture in each, I wonder?  Did Ennis tilt towards a sacred friendship, not trusting the other 2?
      
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 06:46 PM by Tony »

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 09:18 PM »
     Sometimes, it seems that many Brokies have reconstructed a whole new version to Ennis and Jack outside Aguirre's trailer:
Jack:  Hmmm..... this guy fits the bill for what I've been hankering for, and I'm a-gonna git him, whether he knows it or not.....
Ennis:  As a repressed homosexual, I've noticed Jack ain't that bad looking, but, things being what they are, me being shy and all, it'll take some doing
          before I get around to boinging him.
    In short, some number of Brokies see sexual love at first sight and suppose they should have gone behind the trailer, stripped down, and ravished each other.  You know who you are.  You're just not going to admit it.
   But in another thread, of Aintfoolin's, we've gone into Ennis being a loner, and have some agreement there.  Annie Proulx has Ennis riding off, very early, believing he'd finally found....a friend.  No sex mentioned.  There is some strong evidence that Ennis went from a deeply-needed friendship, to sex, and then to romantic love.  Jack, maybe, was sub-consciously toying with all three, very early (Annie does have him as inexperienced).
  So the areas we might explore are, the progression of one to the next, in each, and what was the FINAL mixture?  For instance, had Ennis internalized the final mixture of friendship love and romantic love, and left the sex a shabby but significant third, allowing him to survive on sex twice a year?  Was that a part of the problem?  In fact, did the love, for Ennis, greatly outrank the sex (desirable as that was)?
  And what about the "signals" given, before FNIT?  Come on ---were they ALL sexual? Tentatively probing?  Or was it just natural for Ennis to wash up off a bit, in distance, from a buddy?
  Usually, when my threads are bug-splat on the windshield, it's because the introduction was too messy, so, will try again:  Friendship was an unusually strong force for these two as --they had few friends.  Sex was something that Jack was able to broaden out past Ennis, as an independently existing need (sex with another male).  Romantic love, in the film, seemed to be fully born in SNIT, for both, but hidden somewhat, from fear.
These are 3 different categories: friendship, love, and sex.  How did they interweave, and, if imbalanced, was that part of the troubles?

Great post...Tony. Here's my quick response.

I agree with you that it was a progression, and may even go further to say that Ennis was not aware of where the progression was heading until his heart was in it, and he couldn't pull out, hence the punch on the Mountain.

Having said that you can see where I draw the line you asked for. By the way, before I draw 'em lines on the sand, I must confess that these are fuzzy line conceptual lines at best, and speculative non-existent imaginary lines at worst. By the way, I am speaking on behalf of Ennis. Someone with more intimate knowledge of Jack can do the other side.

Friendship - All through the summer of '63, seeded in the bar when Jack sympathized with Ennis' parents death, then grew with Jack's bravado at every turn, and come to full blossom in the fireside talk with that gorgeous smile.

Sex - First seed when Ennis got buck naked in front of Jack, washing everywhere, and escalated from there until FNIT, fully matured in SNIT

Romantic Love - seeded early after the bear incident, developed during SNIT, and took root during the hail storm, resented on the way down from the mountain, re-discovered in the reunion kiss, rekindled in the motel room, and full blossom diving into the lake buck naked.

Just my two cents worth on a worthy project.  <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 09:30 PM »
If I understand you correctly, Tony.  There was a progression from friendship to sex to love.  Both Ennis and Jack craved friendship.   Ennis living a life of set rules, after his parents death from his sister to brother to marriage, his life was pretty much lonely, and with a almost self imposed exile from displaying his emotion, but still  had a clear plan of what he was suppose to do.  Jack living with an abusive father and passive, but loving mother, pretty much bounce around the country, from herding jobs to rodeos, "..and he was crazy to be somewhere anywhere else than Lightning Flats."     Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other,  unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other.

And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them.  Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand.  And that's how we see it,  Jack started this whole thing.  But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand.  Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?   Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it.  Was he being seen as man,a complete man,  I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him.  This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely. 

I hope this kind of hitting on what you want.  I don't know?  But this is gonna be fun.

Tony another great thread thanks.

Hey, Manhattangirl, great posts elicite great responses. I love a few of your sentences in particular:

"Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other,  unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other."

"But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand.  Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?"

They were NOT expecting it, and love found them. I don't think Jack expected the end results, either. And you asked a question that has been in the back of my mind from the beginning, but never asked clearly. What gave Jack the courage to initiate FNIT?

« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 01:28 AM by lancecowboy »
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 09:36 PM »
    Of course, Manhattangirl, that's exactly where I wanted to go.  On this forum, 2 years later, we are still developing new information and insights, and I hope exploring friendship>sex>romantic love, as the start, and then the balances and imbalances  later, works as a means to try for more.
   I do believe my own reaction to FNIT was different from most other people's.  I saw Jack as having found the first real friend he'd ever had and wanting to lock that in and "compromise" Ennis, by sex.  ANY sex (because the type of sex wasn't immediately settled on).  And I saw Ennis as confused, and seeing his own loneliness exposed and saying, by shoving Jack into position:  "You want to end my loneliness?  This is the price."  Harsh.  Except, as it turned out, they both kinda sorta got lucky as Jack discovered he LIKED that particular price.
  I also see a triple hit: first real friendship; the sex...worked (FNIT), and romantic love roared out and over them (to use your words) in SNIT. One unexpected punch after another.
  As for the progression in each, individually, am not sure.  You mention when Jack wiped the blood off of Ennis' forehead.  And that tenderness looked to me like Jack had jumped from friendship to romantic love, before the sex.  That was a very tender scene, up close.
 But there still would be 3 separate categories through the years: friendship (riding through the streams), sex (always there, at every meeting up), and romantic love, breaking through, at times.  What was the mixture in each, I wonder?  Did Ennis tilt towards a sacred friendship, not trusting the other 2?
     

I love this. It gets better and better. I agree with everything you have been saying, and in the end, I think Ennis trusted the sacred friendship more than the sex and romantic love because friendship he understands and can wrap his head around it. Sex with a man was okay as long as he was top, and it's out in the middle of nowhere, every once in a while. Romantic love with a man...that just ain't going to happen. He punched Jack on the mountain because he was confused by those feelings. He ran down the steps and kissed Jack with passion because he let those feelings run free. He kept his distance all those 20 years, because he still couldn't put reins on them feelings, and didn't know what to do with them...Earl and Rich made it clear they could NOT live together, so what to do? It's after Cassie in the diner that he started to put 2 and 2 together and came up with the four letter word. ...

« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 01:29 AM by lancecowboy »
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 10:27 PM »
If I understand you correctly, Tony.  There was a progression from friendship to sex to love.  Both Ennis and Jack craved friendship.   Ennis living a life of set rules, after his parents death from his sister to brother to marriage, his life was pretty much lonely, and with a almost self imposed exile from displaying his emotion, but still  had a clear plan of what he was suppose to do.  Jack living with an abusive father and passive, but loving mother, pretty much bounce around the country, from herding jobs to rodeos, "..and he was crazy to be somewhere anywhere else than Lightning Flats."     Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other,  unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other.

And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them.  Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand.  And that's how we see it,  Jack started this whole thing.  But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand.  Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?   Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it.  Was he being seen as man,a complete man,  I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him.  This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely. 

I hope this kind of hitting on what you want.  I don't know?  But this is gonna be fun.

Tony another great thread thanks.

 Aother great unique thread from you Tony, MG is right It's gonna be fun.

 I like this. The three stages, friendship , love then sex. are just imo, the natural stages in a progessive relationship. Certain  basic essentials are established in each stage. MG. hit on certain events in the friendship stage in which trust , compatability, are established. Two strangers feeling each other out. They work well together as co-workers like a well oiled machine, each did their part to ensure the job hired for ,got done. Shows each other they are trustworthy, honorable people and a friendship is born through the commomnality of them both, two country boys, ranch stiffs, two deuces,  similar backgrounds, searching for work.

Love stage, I feel kinda snuck up on them. I don't think there was pinpointed moment when it actually happened. I think  Jack read alot into Ennis that day by the fire, Ennis telling Jack his history, but before that Jack had told his. Both their fathers had robbed them of pride and self-esteem, as children. Both knew shame and intolerance. Within their friendship, they found what had been lost  again, in each other. They were  soon drawn to each other like a magnet to steel., Ennis was eager to please, and Jack, concerned, caring, and had a nurturing quality about him.

Ennis had to wonder why it was Jack he felt able to open himself up to by his " that's the most I've said in a year". Jack had to wonder if he was the cause. Something was happening. Enjoyed being near one another, Jack blaming Aguirre for not letting them. Well Ennis fixes that situation for him by offering to switch jobs, now he can decide if their together more easily without having to explain that there was a growing physical attraction  and longing there and that went beyond friendship. I think he took matters into his own hands Jack, who was feeling it too did'nt discourage him.. . Jack never asked Ennis to remain in camp before FNIT, that decision was made by Ennis and Ennis alone.  I also feel secretly, he loved Jack's goofy harmonica playing and Jack secretly liked Ennis teasing him about it. Jack was'nt giving an inch but Ennis knew that mare did'nt just *get lucky*.  Their sense of each other grew into an awareness of a need for each other's company. Soon, Jack is singin, with Ennis giving him a *grand finale drum beat with stick, and engaged in this deep converstion about religion, who's a sinner and whose not, and they're both gonna be marching off to hell on judgement day, but there's just something in the way Ennis looks at Jack at the end of this scene that says to me...This is more than friendship, *I could love this man*.By this point I feel they both knew each one was who the other wanted and needed.

  Sex,  There was a longing there to express it in some way. Some way to show that their friendship and evolved into something else, alot deeper. Jack felt he had the remedy, but I mean ...what was Jack gonna say? Ennis, wanna do it?  Ennis , get in here and do me?  I know you want me?..nah  there was a situation goin on and he just did it,, and Ennis did'nt go running and screaming from the tent Why? Because his  first trusted friend  now wanted to be his lover.  A leap he was hesitant , but willing to take. Later, Ennis was content to "wring it out" with Jack in mind, while Jack needed the  real touch and feel of someone else...preferrably Ennis.

Jack was willing to try some form of sexual expression  ( FNIT)and  put his suspicions about Ennis to the test , he was right. They both had come a long way from that awkward handshake in front of Aguirre's trailor. SNIT was a confirmation of all that had come before... The moment when they both knew this was'nt not just friendship, but truly somethin else. Think they really, really, really enjoyed sex with each other. Anywhere on isolated Brokeback became fair game for them to express it. The distance between them later kept it new to them, this was'nt just about sex. It was about finding your partner for life, never ending friendship and trust, always comforting, always the same. My take, Thanx.

..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Tony

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2008, 11:01 AM »
    Dear Manhattangirl - sometimes it takes me 24 hours to register something completely, and that happened with your question about what gave Jack the courage to make the first move, in FNIT.  That is so pivotal a moment, it's worthy of its own thread, but Aintfoolin and Andrew have gone into it here, so, for now....I guess we ought to do some more there.  And am borrowing from their answers, partly.
   There is sexuality, some say, in just about every part of our thought patterns.  And that could include a straight male or female sizing up someone of their own gender as to physical attractiveness, as opposed to physical attraction, (and  there's a fine line there).  I don't see Ennis physically attracted to Jack, but, instead, bowled over, secretly and quietly, by an emerging friendship love, the likes of which he never thought to see.  But Jack?  Jack was sensual by nature.  And am not being critical by saying ---he was a born love-puppy.
  IMO, then, (and I apologize for armchair psychology), Ennis caught on sub-consciously to Jack's sensual nature and sent out those signals that I now have to admit were there.  I had to be dragged kicking and screaming into conceding this, but, yeah, Ennis ARRANGED the first night by getting stinking drunk and sleeping over.  Jack picked up the signals.  They were sleeping very close together, itself a beginning intimacy, if you think about it.  And all Jack did was take it up a few notches and pull Ennis' hand over.  Now here's a question...given that further intimacy, was it possible that they both could have slept on, semi-sexually?  Meaning, just hand contact?  Jack's first move was aggressive, but not THAT aggressive.  Ennis freaked, and from there came the show-down - do we do it or don't we?
 

Offline Tony

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2008, 11:16 AM »

Friendship - All through the summer of '63, seeded in the bar when Jack sympathized with Ennis' parents death, then grew with Jack's bravado at every turn, and come to full blossom in the fireside talk with that gorgeous smile.

Sex - First seed when Ennis got buck naked in front of Jack, washing everywhere, and escalated from there until FNIT, fully matured in SNIT

Romantic Love - seeded early after the bear incident, developed during SNIT, and took root during the hail storm, resented on the way down from the mountain, re-discovered in the reunion kiss, rekindled in the motel room, and full blossom diving into the lake buck naked.

    Dear Andrew - these careful step-by-step answers are always great.  By the way, it seems to me this whole subject of developing relationships is very much in your bailiwick, so please feel free to develop any aspect as you see fit.  As you said, the above were your first reactions, so I would hope you will go even further.  The interaction between friendship, sex, and romantic love were, if I recall, some of your first postings on this forum, so, it will be interesting to see how you see things now.  Myself, I do see Ennis putting the "sacred friendship" first, and you seemed OK with that.



Offline Tony

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2008, 11:32 AM »
 Hi- Aintfoolin - That was a tightly reasoned and well written post, above.  I've always thought, when you get to a final synopsis, you've really got the subject covered, and you were pretty quick in getting there this time.  Your usual expertise is Ennis, so I was a little surprised you are doing so well with Jack.  Especially when you go to his testing his suspicions about Ennis, when he made his move (if I've got that right).  There was a lot of back and forth before FNIT, and am wondering what fell in each category, friendship, sex, and love.  It was a very good post, and I'll need to re-read it a number of times.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 10:28 AM by Tony »

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2008, 04:01 PM »
Hey, Manhattangirl, great posts elicite great responses. I love a few of your sentences in particular:

"Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other,  unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other."

"But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand.  Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?"

They were NOT expecting it, and love found them. I don't think Jack expected the end results, either. And you asked a question that has been in the back of my mind from the beginning, but never asked clearly. What gave Jack the courage to initiate FNIT?



 Lance,
 I have been thinking maybe Jack was having one of those *nice dreams*  If you know what I mean. Having a warm Ennis laying close up on him did'nt hurt either. Sometimes when there is a strong attraction , perhaps thought upon right before sleep, he made have been in the semi-concious sleepy state of arousal already in a dream. Do you feel that maybe Jack was'nt even concious of what he was doing in FNIT?Jack may have  had this fantasy for a while before, and within this "nice dream *just reached over?  until Ennis jumped.

This may or may not blow my previous concept of Jack suspecting  Ennis's secret desires towards him out of the water but it's just another theory of how Jack ended up with his hand on Ennis , bringing it over to himself.  Ennis may have been just going about his regular routine of stripping down in front of a *buddy* to wash, but Jack seemed like he could barely keep it together. I have many thoughts and go back and forth on how Jack found the courage to do it, this is just one.

I always believed from the beginning that Jack , while inexperienced as Tony says A, Proux had him, was attracted to men and fantisized alot.  I can't help but feel when Ennis was stripping down saying stuff like "balls the size a apples" kinda fed into what was already a mindset in Jack. Obviously he was effected by Ennis's buck-naked in front of him. May not have even understood why, but he was definitly feeling something.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 10:10 PM »
Thanks for the kind words, Tony. I don't know if this is my "bailiwick" as you call it, but you have an amazing memory to recall that one of my first posts was regarding this whole transition from friendship through sex to love. In a way, the discussion here is pointing to a different sequence, where friendship is followed by the beginning of romantic feelings, culminating in FNIT, which then led to SNIT and further development of love.

I defer to Aintfoolin's thorough analysis of Jack's motivation and state of mind when initiating FNIT. I don't recall reading about this in the short story, and I am not sure if Annie Proulx mentioned it in her interviews. I can see valid support for both "subconscious" dreaming leading to action, and "conscious" testing the water. Jack is certainly attracted to Ennis from the beginning. Whether he would have done anything without Ennis' subtle signals is another story.

In the final analysis, I believe the movie is great precisely because it reflects reality so well, even in the ambiguity of the motivation behind the actions from Jack and Ennis. We all do things with fuzzy boundaries. There are not necessarily a fixed and clear reason for what we do. Perhaps Jack gained the courage from Ennis, and the whiskey, and he was conscious of his feelings, and wanted to test the waters. The Aristotelean logic of either-or does not always apply when it comes to human emotions and motivations. I tend to believe that all of the above had some weight in contributing to FNIT, and all that follows.

JMHO
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2008, 08:05 AM »
     Sometimes, it seems that many Brokies have reconstructed a whole new version to Ennis and Jack outside Aguirre's trailer:
Jack:  Hmmm..... this guy fits the bill for what I've been hankering for, and I'm a-gonna git him, whether he knows it or not.....
Ennis:  As a repressed homosexual, I've noticed Jack ain't that bad looking, but, things being what they are, me being shy and all, it'll take some doing
          before I get around to boinging him.
    In short, some number of Brokies see sexual love at first sight and suppose they should have gone behind the trailer, stripped down, and ravished each other.  You know who you are.  You're just not going to admit it.
   But in another thread, of Aintfoolin's, we've gone into Ennis being a loner, and have some agreement there.  Annie Proulx has Ennis riding off, very early, believing he'd finally found....a friend.  No sex mentioned.  There is some strong evidence that Ennis went from a deeply-needed friendship, to sex, and then to romantic love.  Jack, maybe, was sub-consciously toying with all three, very early (Annie does have him as inexperienced).
  So the areas we might explore are, the progression of one to the next, in each, and what was the FINAL mixture?  For instance, had Ennis internalized the final mixture of friendship love and romantic love, and left the sex a shabby but significant third, allowing him to survive on sex twice a year?  Was that a part of the problem?  In fact, did the love, for Ennis, greatly outrank the sex (desirable as that was)?
  And what about the "signals" given, before FNIT?  Come on ---were they ALL sexual? Tentatively probing?  Or was it just natural for Ennis to wash up off a bit, in distance, from a buddy?
  Usually, when my threads are bug-splat on the windshield, it's because the introduction was too messy, so, will try again:  Friendship was an unusually strong force for these two as --they had few friends.  Sex was something that Jack was able to broaden out past Ennis, as an independently existing need (sex with another male).  Romantic love, in the film, seemed to be fully born in SNIT, for both, but hidden somewhat, from fear.
These are 3 different categories: friendship, love, and sex.  How did they interweave, and, if imbalanced, was that part of the troubles?

I think that it was exactly in this progression: friendship --> then the first steps towards love --> then sex --> then a reaffrimation of love after a 4 year's separation.

I have always considered sex to be a manifestation of love, and this is why I say that some love was already present before FNIT. 

I think that their attraction to each other was instantaneous -- present at their first meeting but so vaguely inderstood by either of them.  Part of this attraction was of course sexual, even though it might have been subconscious and unrecognized during the start.  It was friendship and then love that clarified this attraction for both of them. 

It is difficult to separate these components cleanly.  As in every human relationship, there are traces of all of these early on.  I do not doubt that there was some degree of unacknowledged sexual attraction from the start.  But understanding this attraction only came about later through friendship and love.

 

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2008, 10:40 AM »
In a way, the discussion here is pointing to a different sequence, where friendship is followed by the beginning of romantic feelings, culminating in FNIT, which then led to SNIT and further development of love.



    Am not sure I follow this completely, as I don't see much love in FNIT.  Also, we may be missing a step, or category, friendship>friendship love. So I wonder if the progression might have been for Ennis, friendship>friendship love>sex> romantic love, and for Jack, a less organized progression, mixing and matching categories.  I know there doesn't have to be an organized step-by-step, but help me out, please, on the romantic feelings leading to FNIT.  Am unable to see that, so far.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2008, 10:50 AM »

I have always considered sex to be a manifestation of love, and this is why I say that some love was already present before FNIT. 


   Dear Thomas, - am sure some love was present before FNIT - no, certain.  But am a little puzzled.  Do you think sex is ALWAYS, in some way, a manifestation of love (as in the theory of libido)?  Or were you saying sex CAN be a manifestation of love? Am a little grumpy there as have seen too much sexuality in our culture which is clearly, just... sexual release of tensions and needs.
  I do understand the sense that, in the broadest terms, sex can convey, well, some kind of positive interest in the other person, the life-force, or libido, as opposed to the opposite, but am unsure if you think this is always the case.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 11:11 AM by Tony »

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 12:14 PM »
I think I understand what Tony is getting at, (and emphasize THINK).   The suddenness of the fnit the rawness of it may throw a lot of people off it's meaning.  So many people see it in different ways, and snit may seem like a "makeup" for slapping us in the face. 

Many can interpet that there was no "love" in what happen to the both of them that first night.  Just Jack seeing a possible sexual situation and taking advantage of it, and maybe shading our opinion of him, which sometimes I feel he was blamed for.

In Jack and Ennis's case, two men of the earth, born into a harsh and lonely life.  Found each other in just that way,  no hearts, no flowers, no violins playing in the background.  Raw desire, and the need to be loved, like the fire, the stream, and the beans, that kept them alive.  That first night might just be that manifestation of love.    We think it was devoid of love, of tenderness, because we don't see it.  It did something to them, because they had to be with each other again. 

JMO.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 01:25 PM »


In Jack and Ennis's case, two men of the earth, born into a harsh and lonely life.  Found each other in just that way,  no hearts, no flowers, no violins playing in the background.  Raw desire, and the need to be loved, like the fire, the stream, and the beans, that kept them alive.  That first night might just be that manifestation of love.    We think it was devoid of love, of tenderness, because we don't see it. 

    Yeah, this highlights the ruggedness of the 2 guys.  I can see we could underplay romantic feelings in FNIT because, as you say, MG, there were no flowers or violins.  And it was followed, and thereby undermined, by the more traditional romanticism of SNIT.  Maybe the visual contact, as they squared off, and the body language, before Ennis made his choice, contained the point Jack wanted conceded:  there's something between us, and it's serious. And it ain't sex but we can ratify it by sex.
  What IS male "romance", between rugged guys with limited experience of tenderness?  You are hitting on that, Manhattangirl, that they did not know the language of love until the following night.
  But am still sticking to my initial proposal, that friendship love and only friendship love, had developed before the sex, but since it was so deep, and they had no experience there, the sex was the transformer into yet another kind of love- romantic love.  And by friendship love, I mean that at its deepest possible level, co-equal to romantic love, in their case.  And yet concede an orderly progression in Ennis was not paralleled by an orderly progression in Jack.
Jack had twinges of romantic love already.
  At any rate, you are right - we should not suppose the lack of violins and flowers In FNIT, rules out romance.  They didn't know how to DO romance, yet, although it may certainly have been there.  Will need aspirins if I keep trying to track this.  It was fun, though, to remember what we may have forgot- Jack's first move wasn't all that radical.  All he did was force some closer snugglebunny.  Didn't strip down.  Looked like he may even have gone back to sleep
if Ennis hadn't of reacted so violently.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2008, 03:34 PM »
    Yeah, this highlights the ruggedness of the 2 guys.  I can see we could underplay romantic feelings in FNIT because, as you say, MG, there were no flowers or violins.  And it was followed, and thereby undermined, by the more traditional romanticism of SNIT.  Maybe the visual contact, as they squared off, and the body language, before Ennis made his choice, contained the point Jack wanted conceded:  there's something between us, and it's serious. And it ain't sex but we can ratify it by sex.
  What IS male "romance", between rugged guys with limited experience of tenderness?  You are hitting on that, Manhattangirl, that they did not know the language of love until the following night.
  But am still sticking to my initial proposal, that friendship love and only friendship love, had developed before the sex, but since it was so deep, and they had no experience there, the sex was the transformer into yet another kind of love- romantic love.  And by friendship love, I mean that at its deepest possible level, co-equal to romantic love, in their case.  And yet concede an orderly progression in Ennis was not paralleled by an orderly progression in Jack.
Jack had twinges of romantic love already.
  At any rate, you are right - we should not suppose the lack of violins and flowers In FNIT, rules out romance.  They didn't know how to DO romance, yet, although it may certainly have been there.  Will need aspirins if I keep trying to track this.  It was fun, though, to remember what we may have forgot- Jack's first move wasn't all that radical.  All he did was force some closer snugglebunny.  Didn't strip down.  Looked like he may even have gone back to sleep
if Ennis hadn't of reacted so violently.

 So maybe there there's a missing stage here, then, the stage where there is a  cherished love of the friendship itself, still platonic and not yet expressed by sex, which brings along with it the romantic notions of love. Yes, they grew to love each other as friends, companions ,but were not yet lovers. Not yet *in love*. I feel there is a difference there. Just a short space in between love of freindship  and romantic love., but enough to push them over the line into sexual expression of romantic love.Whew...

Yes, they were rugged guys , but guys who were'nt above showing tenderness, a willingness to bring pleasure to each other. Ennis pleasing jack by getting soup, switching jobs, etc... jack nurturing Ennis in the bear scene praising Ennis's shooting skills etc...making each other feel worthy of love in small gestures. It's what friends who love each other do, though in this case niether would define it as that or even being concious of what it was. They just felt that each needed a friend.

I also think that the isolation of the mountain helped also. Sorrounded by it's huge majestic setting, gave them a feeling of privacy, that they were two people allowed to let flow, undisturbed , what ever feelings they chose to express. in a world of their own. Without another soul around, they were totally dependent on each other. Even if one thought they were just two horny young cowboys on the mountain who simply wanted to *experiment* with same-sex notions, the mountain would have provided the perfect setting to do that. Of course the feelings went much deeper than that but just sayin...

I don't think either was really choosing to fall in love, just a natural progession occured. Don't feel anyone can really define or put into words when or why. It's almost like being asked to define love, what is it? A feeling? sex? Small gestures of caring ? They had/did all that, but we could ask jack and Ennis to define what thet felt? we would be very hardpressed to get an answer. Friendship/companionship , the love of that friendship, sex, and then romantic love, confirmed and expressed in SNIT when they both knew whatever they felt was real.

during the confrontation scene Jack goes to embrace Ennis and Ennis pushes him away, but Jack does'nt allow him to let go.?  thru his frustrated "damn you Ennis",This is a friend,  a testament to what was established years and years before. After all was said and done, he was not going to let go. A  true friend in love with a  true friend. Sex may have been compromised, and even love may have been questioned , trust , a little eroded, but the friendship they had established on the mountain lasted. IMHO.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

manhattangirl

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2008, 09:30 PM »
The first and formost thing that happened is that they allowed themselves to be men, and respected each other as men.  They was able to feel not "scrawny asses" as Aguirre dubbed them, but looked at each other with respect as men.  This feeling of respect was pointed out in the ss.  The friendship deepen as time went on, AintFoolin' pointed out this aspect, by all the things they did for each other.  The confidence one gave to the other, the praise, being non critical when Ennis loses the food, and Jack inability to shoot anything at all. 

Physical closeness was not alien thing to them anymore, they couldn't stay away from each other.  Ennis was spending more time in camp, to be near Jack.   Jack had Ennis talking, smiling, laughing, joking.  This loner, wasn't lonely anymore.  Acknowledgement of each other as men, the respect given to the other.The trust, confidence, caring, validation of the other's worth, and with that the feeling of desire?  Validating their worth as loving men, capable of loving, giving love showing love.  Validating the other's male sexuality, showing appreciation, and desire for it.   JMo.
 

  
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 09:38 PM by manhattangirl »

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2008, 11:21 PM »
    Am not sure I follow this completely, as I don't see much love in FNIT.  Also, we may be missing a step, or category, friendship>friendship love. So I wonder if the progression might have been for Ennis, friendship>friendship love>sex> romantic love, and for Jack, a less organized progression, mixing and matching categories.  I know there doesn't have to be an organized step-by-step, but help me out, please, on the romantic feelings leading to FNIT.  Am unable to see that, so far.

Hi, Tony, I did not imply that FNIT was loving, but rather, the "friendship love" that you speak of, for Ennis, is mixed up with romantic love for Jack. I think this is a very perceptive observation, that not every will interpret a situation the same way. Jack, being more open to romantic feelings towards men in general, and Ennis in particular would jump easily from filia (shoot the elk...etc) to eros (FNIT). The romantic love, I believe came later, although it started with Ennis meeting the bear and Jack took care of him and his wounds. I believe SNIT is the culmination of romantic love for both. After that night, the horse-play observed by Aquirre was the kind between lovers, not just friends.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2008, 11:27 PM »
The first and formost thing that happened is that they allowed themselves to be men, and respected each other as men.  They was able to feel not "scrawny asses" as Aguirre dubbed them, but looked at each other with respect as men.  This feeling of respect was pointed out in the ss.  The friendship deepen as time went on, AintFoolin' pointed out this aspect, by all the things they did for each other.  The confidence one gave to the other, the praise, being non critical when Ennis loses the food, and Jack inability to shoot anything at all. 

Physical closeness was not alien thing to them anymore, they couldn't stay away from each other.  Ennis was spending more time in camp, to be near Jack.   Jack had Ennis talking, smiling, laughing, joking.  This loner, wasn't lonely anymore.  Acknowledgement of each other as men, the respect given to the other.The trust, confidence, caring, validation of the other's worth, and with that the feeling of desire?  Validating their worth as loving men, capable of loving, giving love showing love. Validating the other's male sexuality, showing appreciation, and desire for it.   JMo.
 

I love this, manhattangirl. I think you hit on it 100%. From their respect for each other, validation as men, as cowboys, their love grew, first as friends, then with physical closeness, as lovers.  :clap:
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2008, 07:02 AM »
   Dear Thomas, - am sure some love was present before FNIT - no, certain.  But am a little puzzled.  Do you think sex is ALWAYS, in some way, a manifestation of love (as in the theory of libido)?  Or were you saying sex CAN be a manifestation of love? Am a little grumpy there as have seen too much sexuality in our culture which is clearly, just... sexual release of tensions and needs.
  I do understand the sense that, in the broadest terms, sex can convey, well, some kind of positive interest in the other person, the life-force, or libido, as opposed to the opposite, but am unsure if you think this is always the case.

Hello Tony.  Thank you for asking for clarification.  What I meant was that in my own perception, sex is a manifestation of love.  I certainly can't claim that sex is always a sign of love.  This is certainly NOT true in many many situations when sex is used for sensual gratification, and nothing more.

My percetion is based on the fact that they had developed a common friendship with each other, and such feelings certainly make it probable that their sexual yearnings were based on more than just sensual gratification.

 

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2008, 07:06 AM »
I think I understand what Tony is getting at, (and emphasize THINK).   The suddenness of the fnit the rawness of it may throw a lot of people off it's meaning.  So many people see it in different ways, and snit may seem like a "makeup" for slapping us in the face. 

Many can interpet that there was no "love" in what happen to the both of them that first night.  Just Jack seeing a possible sexual situation and taking advantage of it, and maybe shading our opinion of him, which sometimes I feel he was blamed for.

In Jack and Ennis's case, two men of the earth, born into a harsh and lonely life.  Found each other in just that way,  no hearts, no flowers, no violins playing in the background.  Raw desire, and the need to be loved, like the fire, the stream, and the beans, that kept them alive.  That first night might just be that manifestation of love.    We think it was devoid of love, of tenderness, because we don't see it.  It did something to them, because they had to be with each other again. 

JMO.

I do think that there was more of sexual urgency in FNIT rather than love.  But I do think that even at that point, they had developed feelings for each other that go deeper than just physical desire.  IT was, granted, imperfect and incomplely understood/acknowledged.  It is like the initial gropings of accidental lovers, I suppose...




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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2008, 07:06 AM »
I love this, manhattangirl. I think you hit on it 100%. From their respect for each other, validation as men, as cowboys, their love grew, first as friends, then with physical closeness, as lovers.  :clap:

I agree.


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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2008, 08:47 AM »
I love this, manhattangirl. I think you hit on it 100%. From their respect for each other, validation as men, as cowboys, their love grew, first as friends, then with physical closeness, as lovers.  :clap:

O, just to add a footnote: don't forget the isolation and whiskey helped along the feeling of friendship changing into romantic love and sex. I'm sure if this happened in Riverton or Lightning Flat, FNIT or SNIT would be very different.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2008, 12:29 PM »
O, just to add a footnote: don't forget the isolation and whiskey helped along the feeling of friendship changing into romantic love and sex. I'm sure if this happened in Riverton or Lightning Flat, FNIT or SNIT would be very different.
   Well, those 2 factors, isolation and whiskey sure didn't hurt, either in starting a friendship or, later, transforming things.  Am always struck, though, by how these two guys were almost designed for each other, and at the same time, how credible the developments were.
  I also notice we probably fell for them, for the same reasons they fell for each other.  Maybe we had our own progression, the first time we watched the movie, from considering them acceptable friends, to (for some) objects of at least light sexual interest, to our own romantic love for them.  Maybe the activating factors were even the same:
  - we didn't see any malice in either of them.  This is so very important because in our own real world, we are always having to look over our shoulders against people who have an ugly streak.  And it would have been the same for them.
  -we didn't feel threatened by them ---they had no agenda that would cause us to bristle or rub our fur the wrong way, and that was operative for them, too, particularly since, in the SS, Annie has them having conversations early on, where they showed nothing cantankerous and respected each others point of view
  -we did see faults, or imperfections, but these were non-threatening and fleshed out their humanity, and the same occurred with them.

     We could have been friends, then, up to a point, with either one, or both.  But Ennis, in particular, IMO, was near to empty, as far as anything to his life.  He wasn't a dreamer, like Jack, nor very lively.  He was just limping along when that freight train, Jack, hit. So the friendship love went into the sacred zone for him, and we hadn't caught up to this when the explosion of FNIT occurred, which may be why we were staggered at the suddenness.
   Might even say that, like the shirts, FNIT redefined everything seen before.  Ennis looking off at Jack on the mare with the low startle point. Almost drinking in....something, thoughtfully.  Jack watching Ennis at night, off in the distance, with the sheep.  Every smile seen, interpreted in a new way. And we saw it, but hadn't caught up to what it meant.  And neither did they, to any fullness.  New territory, friendship love, for two men basically rejected by most of the surrounding world.  The sex forced a confrontation (and Jack wanted that), and then, compromised, admission or ratification.
  The romantic love?  Looks to me like it was far more difficult territory than the previous 2 stages, and clearly more dangerous (you can adjust to a sacred friendship, and even a sexual fling, occurring at so young of an age), but you damn sure don't know what to do with the impossible- heartfelt, enduring, soul-meeting, romantic love.  So they kept being nibbled at by that force that would not go away.
  Am I going too far?  Their real troubles were never over the intensely ratifying friendship love.  And, whatever the practical, real-world troubles inherent in the sexual relationship, they, uh, still did it, even if always under the suffocating environment of homophobia.  The sex worked.  But the final stage...romantic love, was the obstacle.  It was to prove to be the most powerful force of all, and there they could find no resolution.
 I'll go ahead and say it.  Ennis' fears of being discovered, and his so-called repressed sexuality, were real, yes, but he used them to avoid confrontation with that third stage he couldn't handle:  romantic love.
  And off, to the side...remember Aguirre?  He adjusted to the sex he'd witnessed, grumped, and accepted it.  He would NEVER have accepted any romantic, eternal love as possible.  Ennis had trouble concealing just that....the final stage.  And he used the sexual issues, IMO, as a cover.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2008, 12:51 PM »
   That post I did was wordy, and ended with a viewpoint easily rejected by most.  To abbreviate, I do accept the Earl & Rich story as affecting Ennis, and do see the rural homophobia issue.  Am saying....he played it.  His primary struggle was not, IMO, about the sexual issues.  He'd come to terms with them and could have found a way to resolve the need for hooking up with Jack on a ranch.  Jack sensed this (after all, he'd slept with Ennis enough to know Ennis had resolved a lot of fears there) and so kept waiting.
  Ennis was past most of that.  It was the final stage, full romantic love, that was there, but, resolving that was the real wall he couldn't get over.  The other 2 stages were known to exist.  The third, he'd seen no evidence of anywhere, in that little world they lived in.

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2008, 12:09 AM »
   That post I did was wordy, and ended with a viewpoint easily rejected by most.  To abbreviate, I do accept the Earl & Rich story as affecting Ennis, and do see the rural homophobia issue.  Am saying....he played it.  His primary struggle was not, IMO, about the sexual issues.  He'd come to terms with them and could have found a way to resolve the need for hooking up with Jack on a ranch.  Jack sensed this (after all, he'd slept with Ennis enough to know Ennis had resolved a lot of fears there) and so kept waiting.
  Ennis was past most of that.  It was the final stage, full romantic love, that was there, but, resolving that was the real wall he couldn't get over.  The other 2 stages were known to exist.  The third, he'd seen no evidence of anywhere, in that little world they lived in.

Wordy or not, Tony, I love what you said about their friendship grew early, out of respect for each other, and a lack of malice. I agree 100%, and would add also that their friendship grew out of the common experience, working together. It's why buddies in war and on ships become life long friends. As you said, somethings sacred is formed in that bond.

I am with you concerning Ennis' inability to take the last step towards romantic love. I don't agree however, with respect to his fear, or playing, etc. I think his lonesome personality is simply incapable, unable to know what true love is. He sensed it with Jack for twenty years, and had no reins, did not understand, thinking it was just guys having fun. It was only when he saw Cassie's expression, and her statement, "Girls don't fall in love with fun." that he realized it was love, not sex, not just fun friendship, or even sacred friendship. It was deep soul connecting love. That's when he sent that postcard that got returned.  :\'(

To the man who never truly experienced being loved, in childhood, or even with Alma, he simply did not recognize true love when it was knocking on his fortress gate.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

manhattangirl

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2008, 01:40 AM »
   That post I did was wordy, and ended with a viewpoint easily rejected by most.  To abbreviate, I do accept the Earl & Rich story as affecting Ennis, and do see the rural homophobia issue.  Am saying....he played it.  His primary struggle was not, IMO, about the sexual issues.  He'd come to terms with them and could have found a way to resolve the need for hooking up with Jack on a ranch.  Jack sensed this (after all, he'd slept with Ennis enough to know Ennis had resolved a lot of fears there) and so kept waiting.
  Ennis was past most of that.  It was the final stage, full romantic love, that was there, but, resolving that was the real wall he couldn't get over.  The other 2 stages were known to exist.  The third, he'd seen no evidence of anywhere, in that little world they lived in.

What Tony is saying I wholeheartedly agree.   Ennis got past the idea of loving another man, (in my mind) when he was standing in Alma's kitchen.  He defended Jack, and in his way their love affair.  Now Ennis problem was Jack, and feelings for him, he doubts that Jack loved him in return, and the doubts that they could live together in peace, so Brokeback Mountain to Ennis was the only place they could.  I've wondered why he tacked that postcard of Brokeback next to the shirts. Like that cow and calf operation Jack dreamt of, Brokeback was that place for Ennis. 

Did I get it Tony?     

 

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Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2008, 01:45 AM »
   Dear Andrew - one of the neatest things about the interplay on this forum, is that it has caused insights, that hold up, that were not seen 2 years ago, and therefore greatly expand the appreciation of this film, in later viewings.  I would want to make a list, but would greatly fear omitting someone.
   Even so, 2 of yours have been:   1) the ratification given to Ennis' love by Jack's Mom, which is extremely important, and
                                                2) the theory that Ennis didn't understand the definition of what was hitting him until he heard Cassie's words in
                                                   the diner, which, IMO, is holding up
  So, in mentioning that 2nd major insight on your part, it was entirely relevant to this topic and how each category played its role.  You are right - Ennis couldn't understand or face up to the 3rd stage, romantic love, until that confrontation.  Many thanks.  Tony.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 02:18 AM by Tony »