Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[Tony]

  Hi- Manhattangirl - our posts got crossed.  Yes, I do think the fight with Alma was the point where he took his stand, and would not back down, but still have to say this was a prelude to understanding just what he was defending.  Which he finally understood in the diner.  Interesting, that a confrontation, with the 2 women in his life, forced him ever nearer to understanding what Jack really meant to him.  That point of yours needs to be tied to Andrew's.  The first, defending something, just what he didn't know.  The second, knowing.
   At any rate, your last post has to be added to the list, that list of insights which makes a later viewing of the film richer and more powerful.  Yes, oh wow,
yes, when he stood up to Alma, however defensive and convoluted that was, he was, for the first time, standing up to any part of the world outside of himself and Jack.  And further, it's strange, isn't it, that it was WOMEN he had to work this out with, isn't it?  Defending the relationship with Alma.  Understanding it, finally, with Cassie in the diner. And then, as Andrew has pointed out, accepting the quiet support, blessing, and understanding from yet a third woman....Jack's mom.  You ladies do get around in our lives, don't you?

[tpe]

*** 

 I'll go ahead and say it.  Ennis' fears of being discovered, and his so-called repressed sexuality, were real, yes, but he used them to avoid confrontation with that third stage he couldn't handle:  romantic love.
  And off, to the side...remember Aguirre?  He adjusted to the sex he'd witnessed, grumped, and accepted it.  He would NEVER have accepted any romantic, eternal love as possible.  Ennis had trouble concealing just that....the final stage.  And he used the sexual issues, IMO, as a cover.

I don't know, Tony.  I see your point and admit that it can't be ruled out, certainly.  But I don't know if Ennis was that calculating.  For me, his repressed sexuality and fears of being found out seemed to have dictated a lot of his decisions which later proved difficult to reverse -- the marriage with Alma, in particular. 

It is true that Jack embodies more of romantic love than Ennis did, but I don't know if he is incapable or even immune to it.  For me, his love for Jack was in an abstracted, perhaps idealized manner -- done sparingly up in the mountatins, away from the madding crowd, so to speak.  To have decided to live with Jack would have been the prosaic, down-to-earth alternative.  So it would seem to me that Ennis' fault has more to do with his inability to translate that "romantic" love into something more concrete, like a commitment, or a desire to make it integral to his life as a whole, and not just an escape.

[Tony]

   Dear Thomas- I think I understand your post, and I do agree that Ennis didn't fall into the category of "calculating".  I meant he used the other issues (Earl and Rich, etc.) sub-consciously, because he couldn't get to that understanding of himself as in love, romantically.
   Am prone to this kind of wondering (and maybe I should retreat from assertion to wondering) because of the unusual background I have, which colors my take on BBM.  I grew up in a ratty neighborhood with about 40 guys and hardly any females.  I live in a city with 40,000 extra men.  And regardless of whether Ennis WAS gay or not (different topic), he defined himself as straight.
  And what I saw, in my past, was a whole lot of friendship loves (no sex) and, yeah, a whole lot of boinging going on between supposedly straight guys.  This defies everybody else's experience and is harrumped at by both gays and straights as....not convenient for their formulas. But, more importantly, I DID notice the last barrier, almost never crossed, no- I'd say NEVER crossed, was...kissing, which implies romantic love.  Decades later, I still stumble across old buddies who, it turned out, were part of that mess.  And they all flipped it off and got on with their lives.
  Returning then, to Ennis.  He defined himself as straight.  I do know of friendship loves, no sex, that haunted some of my friends, they ran so deep.
But Ennis had gone past friendship love, adapted even to same gender sex (and rather handily, I might add), but he had kissed Jack, held him, nestled with him, stroked him tenderly, year after year after year.  And so, given what I have seen (which, granted, is unusual), I do not find it strange that his having broken the final barrier, kissing, and gone into romantic love, was the central torment and confusion,  not sex.  He'd made his peace with the sex long, long before.
  In that context, then, I wonder if he didn't push the Earl and Rich story and the surrounding environment, when he may have already been past that.
Aintfoolin once said there was no problem there that couldn't be solved by a shotgun and a few Rottweilers, and I think Ennis was as smart as Aintfoolin.  So I don't assert this, but I do wonder about it.  Whether he'd resolved the conflict with society, but not with the re-definition of himself required for admitting romantic love.  The re-definition Andrew suggests began in that diner with Cassie, and then prevailed, with Jack's Mom, during the visit to Lightning Flat.  I've wobbled back, from asserting, to wondering, Thomas, as I always try to see your point in leaving some room there, or on any other subject, for a better understanding.

[aintfoolin]

I don't know, Tony.  I see your point and admit that it can't be ruled out, certainly.  But I don't know if Ennis was that calculating.  For me, his repressed sexuality and fears of being found out seemed to have dictated a lot of his decisions which later proved difficult to reverse -- the marriage with Alma, in particular. 

It is true that Jack embodies more of romantic love than Ennis did, but I don't know if he is incapable or even immune to it.  For me, his love for Jack was in an abstracted, perhaps idealized manner -- done sparingly up in the mountatins, away from the madding crowd, so to speak.  To have decided to live with Jack would have been the prosaic, down-to-earth alternative.  So it would seem to me that Ennis' fault has more to do with his inability to translate that "romantic" love into something more concrete, like a commitment, or a desire to make it integral to his life as a whole, and not just an escape.

I agree with both points. I don't think he was calculating in the sense in thinking, * If I take this action, then this will be the results etc. ... don't really feel he thought this way, just went with the flow, but he could compartmentalize alot. We were'nt privy to his *courting* of Alma, or how he came to be engaged to her before he metJack or who actually proposed to who during that relationship, but we did see a kind of *courting* of  Jack on the mountain, reserved and subtle, but, vintage Ennis.

As Jack drew Ennis out, Ennis drew Jack in. Your right, tpe, Jack embodied more of *romantic love*,  and whatever he read into Ennis during their *courtship* on the Mountain involved that. He showed an openess and acceptance of it easier than Ennis, but Ennis knew and was very aware of which relationship he could be more open with to society and which one he had to conceal.

He could seperate the two relationships ,Alma, and Jack very clearly in his mind. The problem was not that he did'nt feel romantic love, just had problems showing it. He was stoic and a loner, but human.  Not some emotionless robot without feelings or heart. Yes, he could go with Alma to a church social or Cassie to a bar and dance, but in those social situations, he was still lonesome, and uncomfortable. You'll never hear him say " lets go to a dance" or anywhere else that involved socializing, but he was'nt immune as you say to romantic love without  really being concious of that fact, he felt it towards Jack.
 Yes, he liked doing it with women, but it's obvious who was the object of his desire when he "wrung it out" hundreds of times. Jack, not Alma. ...and that's alot of *wringing*. I feel the sex with Jack  and romantic notion of love went hand in hand for Ennis, no different from "straight" romances. Sex is  not seperate from romantic love , but merely a personal  expression of romantic love, but it varies from one individual to another in their minds what is considered love and the state of being *in love*. Roles come into play, how one sees themself in relation to the other.  One may have love for a friend and even have sex with them, but that does'nt mean one knows or recognizes it as being  "in love" .
 Jack and Ennis fell "in love" and that real true love was tested thru yrs of obstacles  ( their's were huge) , braved the storms of rejection, fear and intolerence from within and  from without, and still survived. To me , that is the standard by which love is proven, beyond  a shadow of a doubt. The confrontation scene, a passionate fight , not to break up, but to hold on.

Romantic love with Ennis, I feel is shown clearly during the reunion scene by the river where he's smiling, sending up a prayer of thanks to the heavens above that jack had retuned to his life ,  he was so relieved and relaxed and not a whiskey bottle in sight, but as soon as Jack suggested ranching up together, his demeanor changed totally. Fear, once again enters the picture. The best he can offer Jack is every once in a while , out in the middle of nowhere, but he did go on to say that his love for Jack, in so many words, was the one  love he could not pull the reins in on. Certainly he still had problems with it but to Jack, this was Ennis being  romantic and showing  romantic love for him ...as best as he knew how anyway, Really, had he taken a moment , and stopped being so dismissive( no way?) and fearful,, he'd have realized that Jack was giving him something to work with, maybe not perfection, but alot more than he had with his " life in Riverton".  After four yrs, he knew the comparison is crystal clear where his  sense of "romantic" love lies.  Ennis stated , in so many words,  finally that he can't help the feelings he had for him and only him. It showed the contrast between being "stuck with what I got, due to a mistake," in one relationship, ( Alma) and  "no reins  on love in the other. Stayed devoted to that romantic love for Jack by showing up to meet Jack and expressing that love through sex  for 20 yrs. it was clear he had  a deep *romantic love* for Jack that he did'nt have for Alma, or Cassie.Maybe jack could 'nt get Ennis to the point of living with him, opening the door of this "fortress" which is Ennis Del Mar, all the way, but that does'nt lessen the fact that Ennis loved and needed him in everyway possible. Though it was frustrating, I feel Jack knew this and took whatever he could get, which was more than either of them thought possible. My take, Thanx.

Tony, our posts will cross as I'm getting the *red-lined " review your post thingy, but here goes....Shot guns and Rottweilers can be be a wonderful thing when your life and love is being threatend, and who says Ennis and Jack don't have the right to defend themselves ....

[manhattangirl]

I don't know, Tony.  I see your point and admit that it can't be ruled out, certainly.  But I don't know if Ennis was that calculating.  For me, his repressed sexuality and fears of being found out seemed to have dictated a lot of his decisions which later proved difficult to reverse -- the marriage with Alma, in particular. 

It is true that Jack embodies more of romantic love than Ennis did, but I don't know if he is incapable or even immune to it.  For me, his love for Jack was in an abstracted, perhaps idealized manner -- done sparingly up in the mountatins, away from the madding crowd, so to speak.  To have decided to live with Jack would have been the prosaic, down-to-earth alternative.  So it would seem to me that Ennis' fault has more to do with his inability to translate that "romantic" love into something more concrete, like a commitment, or a desire to make it integral to his life as a whole, and not just an escape.

I tend to agree to some extent.  Romantic is what Ennis felt, its what he showed Jack, but in the confines of the Mountain.  I've wondered why he tacked the picture of Brokeback next to the shirts, I feel that it was the only place, in Ennis's mind where his love could exist.  He gave it freely to Jack on the mountain.  To speak of   going beyond the mountain, was inconceivable to him, an impossibility that he couldn't, wouldn't consider.

Brokeback Mountain was Ennis's shelter, like his mother's arms and her singing to him.   Jack look at Brokeback as place that stood between him and the "sweet life".  Everything they had was built on that Mountain.   But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to.  Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.

[tpe]

   Dear Thomas- I think I understand your post, and I do agree that Ennis didn't fall into the category of "calculating".  I meant he used the other issues (Earl and Rich, etc.) sub-consciously, because he couldn't get to that understanding of himself as in love, romantically.
   Am prone to this kind of wondering (and maybe I should retreat from assertion to wondering) because of the unusual background I have, which colors my take on BBM.  I grew up in a ratty neighborhood with about 40 guys and hardly any females.  I live in a city with 40,000 extra men.  And regardless of whether Ennis WAS gay or not (different topic), he defined himself as straight.
  And what I saw, in my past, was a whole lot of friendship loves (no sex) and, yeah, a whole lot of boinging going on between supposedly straight guys.  This defies everybody else's experience and is harrumped at by both gays and straights as....not convenient for their formulas. But, more importantly, I DID notice the last barrier, almost never crossed, no- I'd say NEVER crossed, was...kissing, which implies romantic love.  Decades later, I still stumble across old buddies who, it turned out, were part of that mess.  And they all flipped it off and got on with their lives.
  Returning then, to Ennis.  He defined himself as straight.  I do know of friendship loves, no sex, that haunted some of my friends, they ran so deep.
But Ennis had gone past friendship love, adapted even to same gender sex (and rather handily, I might add), but he had kissed Jack, held him, nestled with him, stroked him tenderly, year after year after year.  And so, given what I have seen (which, granted, is unusual), I do not find it strange that his having broken the final barrier, kissing, and gone into romantic love, was the central torment and confusion,  not sex.  He'd made his peace with the sex long, long before.
  In that context, then, I wonder if he didn't push the Earl and Rich story and the surrounding environment, when he may have already been past that.
Aintfoolin once said there was no problem there that couldn't be solved by a shotgun and a few Rottweilers, and I think Ennis was as smart as Aintfoolin.  So I don't assert this, but I do wonder about it.  Whether he'd resolved the conflict with society, but not with the re-definition of himself required for admitting romantic love.  The re-definition Andrew suggests began in that diner with Cassie, and then prevailed, with Jack's Mom, during the visit to Lightning Flat.  I've wobbled back, from asserting, to wondering, Thomas, as I always try to see your point in leaving some room there, or on any other subject, for a better understanding.

I see what you mean then: if he had gone that far, then why didn't he go the extra mile?  I agree that it was probably subconscious.   But I do think his fears were more of a concern when it came to live their love more openly, instead of just nurturing it in the middle of nowhere. 

[tpe]

I agree with both points. I don't think he was calculating in the sense in thinking, * If I take this action, then this will be the results etc. ... don't really feel he thought this way, just went with the flow, but he could compartmentalize alot. We were'nt privy to his *courting* of Alma, or how he came to be engaged to her before he metJack or who actually proposed to who during that relationship, but we did see a kind of *courting* of  Jack on the mountain, reserved and subtle, but, vintage Ennis.

As Jack drew Ennis out, Ennis drew Jack in. Your right, tpe, Jack embodied more of *romantic love*,  and whatever he read into Ennis during their *courtship* on the Mountain involved that. He showed an openess and acceptance of it easier than Ennis, but Ennis knew and was very aware of which relationship he could be more open with to society and which one he had to conceal.

He could seperate the two relationships ,Alma, and Jack very clearly in his mind. The problem was not that he did'nt feel romantic love, just had problems showing it. He was stoic and a loner, but human.  Not some emotionless robot without feelings or heart. Yes, he could go with Alma to a church social or Cassie to a bar and dance, but in those social situations, he was still lonesome, and uncomfortable. You'll never hear him say " lets go to a dance" or anywhere else that involved socializing, but he was'nt immune as you say to romantic love without  really being concious of that fact, he felt it towards Jack.
 Yes, he liked doing it with women, but it's obvious who was the object of his desire when he "wrung it out" hundreds of times. Jack, not Alma. ...and that's alot of *wringing*. I feel the sex with Jack  and romantic notion of love went hand in hand for Ennis, no different from "straight" romances. Sex is  not seperate from romantic love , but merely a personal  expression of romantic love, but it varies from one individual to another in their minds what is considered love and the state of being *in love*. Roles come into play, how one sees themself in relation to the other.  One may have love for a friend and even have sex with them, but that does'nt mean one knows or recognizes it as being  "in love" .
 Jack and Ennis fell "in love" and that real true love was tested thru yrs of obstacles  ( their's were huge) , braved the storms of rejection, fear and intolerence from within and  from without, and still survived. To me , that is the standard by which love is proven, beyond  a shadow of a doubt. The confrontation scene, a passionate fight , not to break up, but to hold on.

Romantic love with Ennis, I feel is shown clearly during the reunion scene by the river where he's smiling, sending up a prayer of thanks to the heavens above that jack had retuned to his life ,  he was so relieved and relaxed and not a whiskey bottle in sight, but as soon as Jack suggested ranching up together, his demeanor changed totally. Fear, once again enters the picture. The best he can offer Jack is every once in a while , out in the middle of nowhere, but he did go on to say that his love for Jack, in so many words, was the one  love he could not pull the reins in on. Certainly he still had problems with it but to Jack, this was Ennis being  romantic and showing  romantic love for him ...as best as he knew how anyway, Really, had he taken a moment , and stopped being so dismissive( no way?) and fearful,, he'd have realized that Jack was giving him something to work with, maybe not perfection, but alot more than he had with his " life in Riverton".  After four yrs, he knew the comparison is crystal clear where his  sense of "romantic" love lies.  Ennis stated , in so many words,  finally that he can't help the feelings he had for him and only him. It showed the contrast between being "stuck with what I got, due to a mistake," in one relationship, ( Alma) and  "no reins  on love in the other. Stayed devoted to that romantic love for Jack by showing up to meet Jack and expressing that love through sex  for 20 yrs. it was clear he had  a deep *romantic love* for Jack that he did'nt have for Alma, or Cassie.Maybe jack could 'nt get Ennis to the point of living with him, opening the door of this "fortress" which is Ennis Del Mar, all the way, but that does'nt lessen the fact that Ennis loved and needed him in everyway possible. Though it was frustrating, I feel Jack knew this and took whatever he could get, which was more than either of them thought possible. My take, Thanx.

Tony, our posts will cross as I'm getting the *red-lined " review your post thingy, but here goes....Shot guns and Rottweilers can be be a wonderful thing when your life and love is being threatend, and who says Ennis and Jack don't have the right to defend themselves ....

I do agree that for me, Ennis's love for Jack was a romantic love -- something seemingly unatainable in the real world, but something uniquely their own up in the Mountain.  In some ways, perhaps Ennis felt that he didn't need to show it. 

[tpe]

I tend to agree to some extent.  Romantic is what Ennis felt, its what he showed Jack, but in the confines of the Mountain.  I've wondered why he tacked the picture of Brokeback next to the shirts, I feel that it was the only place, in Ennis's mind where his love could exist.   He gave it freely to Jack on the mountain.  To speak of   going beyond the mountain, was inconceivable to him, an impossibility that he couldn't, wouldn't consider.

Brokeback Mountain was Ennis's shelter, like his mother's arms and her singing to him.    Jack look at Brokeback as place that stood between him and the "sweet life".  Everything they had was built on that Mountain.   But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to.  Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.

Perfect, MG.    This is so close to what I had in mind or what I had been trying to say.

[Tony]

Everything they had was built on that Mountain.   But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to.  Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.

     All this time, I had forgotten, mostly, Jack's asking for his ashes to be spread on that mountain.  I guess it was overshadowed by the shirts, and so I didn't let it sink in.  But, in some ways, the request was more powerful than the shirts, as Jack was defining his life by where he wanted his ashes to go.
Thanks for reminding me, MG.
  Meanwhile, although Ennis seemed to be having trouble with ratifying romantic love, which would force him to re-define himself, we might have over-done it just slightly, by seeing Jack as totally free of this problem.  He sure was far more open, and adjusted, than Ennis, but maybe he, too, feared the implications of romantic love.  Just as I've wondered if Ennis' wasn't hiding behind the Earl & Rich story, I wonder if Jack wasn't hiding behind the complaints they weren't working as companions (a ranch together), or having enough sex.  Again, he was way far ahead of Ennis, but that doesn't mean he was completely liberated.
The Jack hearing Randall's come-on, outside the Moose lodge, was not a man who registered things quickly as to their full implications.
   Jack was hungering for a full movement into a romantic love relationship, but just like Ennis, he didn't really have any role models or projections as to how that would fully unfold.  "Hi, honey, I'm home from the round-up", wasn't, IMO, there for either of them.
  They had become fluent in the language of friendship love, and the language of sexual expression, but neither seemed to find the grammar book easy for romantic love and were only able to convey that level of communication on rare events.

[lancecowboy]

I tend to agree to some extent.  Romantic is what Ennis felt, its what he showed Jack, but in the confines of the Mountain.  I've wondered why he tacked the picture of Brokeback next to the shirts, I feel that it was the only place, in Ennis's mind where his love could exist.  He gave it freely to Jack on the mountain. To speak of   going beyond the mountain, was inconceivable to him, an impossibility that he couldn't, wouldn't consider.

Brokeback Mountain was Ennis's shelter, like his mother's arms and her singing to him.   Jack look at Brokeback as place that stood between him and the "sweet life".  Everything they had was built on that Mountain.   But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to.  Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.

I was going to highlight on a few places, then realized the entire post is precious, manhattangirl.

Ennis definitely loved more freely on Brokeback Mountain compared to anywhere else. Jack was happy with that at first, but then got tired of "never enough" and said, "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain..." To Ennis, that was like saying heaven was all we've got. He felt hurt and dejected by this. Because his sense of love from Jack stems from their sharing a piece of heaven on earth.

I never thought about the significance of Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain. It makes sense that it is a concession to Ennis, that their relationship on Brokehback Mountain is his best memories and eternal.

I think Ennis tacked the picture of Brokeback Mountain on the door because he swears to Jack that he can and will carry out Jack's last wish. I think both motivations are present, not just one, or perhaps both stem from the same love for Jack.

Sorry if this is a bit scrambled but it was late and I was dozing as I typed. 

[Tony]

     Am very glad when someone picks up on something I missed, that enhances the meanings of different parts of the movie.  So, was grateful to be reminded by MG of the fact Jack wanted his ashes forever on Brokeback Mountain.
    I have to confess that I haven't seen the movie again, in over 7 months, because I wasn't up to the emotional impact, but when next I do, there's going to be so much more to many scenes, thanks to what I have read on this forum.  But now, Andrew has me zeroed in on the scene in the diner, with Cassie.  Am hoping I'm not mistaken, but that, as best as I can recall, followed their last meeting, which had produced a melt-down.
   Ennis was more miserable, there, IMO, than at any other time we see him, including the shirts scene (where there was off-setting, bittersweet understanding).  Andrew has it, and am in complete agreement, that there was the point Ennis was confronting the fact that "this thing, that comes over us..." wasn't sex, but love.  But that would be AFTER the moody conversation with Cassie.  What was he thinking about BEFORE?
  I don't think am over-doing this -- it really does look to me that Ennis was totally miserable, and even shell-shocked.  If this is true, could we then move away from the standard take, that Ennis would never change?  If it was as bad as it looked to me, he was hurting so much, Jack's complaints were very much on his mind.  I hope I haven't screwed up, in where the scene occurs.  But if it is as I recall,  IMO, he was so miserable, he WOULD move to the territory Jack wanted - romantic love and commitment.

    We have strong storms moving towards where I live, so, as usual, may lose the internet, but will get back later to see if anyone agrees.

[lancecowboy]

Wow, Tony. I am so glad you are leading this discussion, because the questions are so great. What WAS Ennis thinking when Cassie walked in with Carl?

Let's see:

1. As you said, he just broke up with Jack after the last meeting.
2. He just broke off with Cassie, not with so many words, but by typically Ennis-fashion, not returning her calls, and notes.
3. Sitting there by himself, as usual, eating contently apple pie, probably just had beans.

I conjecture that Ennis was not so much miserable at that point. I think he was more miserable just before meeting Cassie...sitting at the bar, drinking beer after beer... He was brooding at that point. At the diner, I think he was resigned...

Ennis was through with love...he was content with loneliness. He was through with Jack and Brokeback Mountain. He was through with Cassie and fitting in. He was through with Alma and pretending. He was going back to his old lonesome self, the one he knew so well. The one he feels most natural and comfortable with, since childhood.

Cassie with her usual emotional expressions, tears and all...woke up Ennis to the fact that sooner or later, he will have to face up to the joy he would be missing...girls don't fall in love with fun. It wasn't just the fun that he and Jack shared, but something more... And once this was reminded, he knew that it wasn't over between him and Jack. So he sent the postcard for the November meet.

Just my speculation here, that Ennis was thinking as he sat there enjoying his apple pie, that he didn't need nobody, when he had nobody...and he was about to close-up Fortress Ennis, perhaps forever. But destiny sent an angel in disguise, and blew up Fort Ennis...

JMHO

[welshwitch]

For me it was all there in embryo right from the first few moments outside Aguirre's trailer, the sort of situation where interest is aroused and attraction dimly felt. The rest is immanent (in the pantheistic sense), though not understood be Ennis and maybe only perceived by Jack. Love perhaps comes at once in the coup de foudre but isn't expressed or maybe even isn;t acknowledged at first.

[Tony]

For me it was all there in embryo right from the first few moments outside Aguirre's trailer, the sort of situation where interest is aroused and attraction dimly felt. or maybe even isn;t acknowledged at first.

    Dear Welshwitch - that is, it seems to me, exactly how the movie starts: they do have immediate interest, Jack, very much so, Ennis, registering but in denial.  Which brings to mind the question, can a person have an idealized projection of just who they WOULD be interested in?  We do know Jack wanted that rugged, but non-abusive, love-needy, shy cowboy, as that shows up in his life-story.  Ennis' body language was dead-on bullseye.  His reaction to Jack was one of thousands that were possible, but one that certainly fit the outlines of what Jack needed. There was much to that body-language.  And I really loved Jack's apparent response:  "I got a line on you, dude. You brushed me off....we'll just see about that...."  Almost a little smug, as he shaved himself in the truck, certain, already, he was what Ennis needed.  At that point, perhaps, a friend.
    For Ennis, could his idealized projection be:  someone somewhat lively (or, alive, as Ennis was near dead from emptiness), someone non-threatening, someone free of the cowboy "pose" of quiet disinterest, and someone who showed warmth and interest in him?
   Or, putting this another way, did they know what they were looking for (or maybe just needed, with no active sense of looking to find)?  I wouldn't say love at first sight, but I would say recognition at first sight, of the Other, the one needed.  And for Ennis, the one he could feel, at long last, comfortable with (I do see Ennis as uncomfortable with just about everyone else in his life, to some degree).  And for Jack, the rugged male who would not judge him or hurt him, as did his father.
  There is enough in the body language outside Aguirre's trailer to signal - some nerve had been struck in each one, that was waiting for that to possibly happen.

[Tony]

    Dear Andrew - Am glad you liked the question I asked, but, please be sure, am not leading the discussion.  Besides being too disorganized for that, I much prefer to react to the thinking of others.  Whenever I start a thread, I do like to nurse it along for a brief while, and then let it continue or die off depending on the interest of the other Brokies.  Thinking back, I don't remember ever leading, but rather, reacting, and....occasionally going off to Finland.  At any rate, as I said, if others don't take the lead, I prefer a thread I started just die off naturally, which is normal for any thread.
   Well, then, to your answer to the question of what Ennis was thinking before Cassie came in.  Please remember, I've thought your focus on these scenes, and your conclusions about Cassie transforming his thinking, were brave new territory and absolutely on target.
  But your take on his thinking before, that he was retreating into Fortress Ennis, although easily supported, isn't so easy for me (which is OK, as disagreement can be the spice to a great soup).  I really remember those scenes as his being miserable...in a constructive way.  Meaning, he wasn't retreating, he was, instead, miserable about how to move forward.  Jack had sort of given him notice- things weren't working out.  Ennis clearly was taking this seriously, and was miserable because he was paralyzed as to what to do.
  Your insight that Cassie led the way, however, holds up for either version.  Because he needed to know the definition of love, and that was what you pointed out as her pivotal role, in giving that definition. 
  We're only slightly differing.  I see him as more miserable because he knew he had to do something but didn't know what or how.  You see him as in
retreat, into that fortress, released by the run-in with Cassie.  Either way, I think he was willing to make some changes.....

[lancecowboy]

[...]  We're only slightly differing.  I see him as more miserable because he knew he had to do something but didn't know what or how.  You see him as in
retreat, into that fortress, released by the run-in with Cassie.  Either way, I think he was willing to make some changes.....

Perhaps my wording of "leading" was incorrect. I meant it not in the sense of "in-charge" but in the sense of asking questions that lead us into new territories.

I agree with you that Ennis was miserable at the diner, and also in the bar when Cassie jumped on him. The two bookends of their first and last meeting...Ennis miserable and lonely. I pointed out Ennis' retreat into Fortress Ennis not because that is what he wants to do, but it is what he knows how to do. This is the man who says, "If you can't fix it, then you gotta stand it." The man is accustomed to living a lonely life, although it would be the first time without Jack. But it would be the same as those many months between their infrequent meetings. Ennis can stand it, if he had to. Jack...never. I am grateful for Jackster's Willie Nelson's song lyrics...Ennis is the lonesome cowboy who is alone even with the ones he love.

I love what you said about their first meeting. Ennis is certainly interested in Jack, not necessarily in a sexual sense, and even then, it can be a number of many different ways, not necessarily the roll in the hay kind. Jack's attitude, as you pointed out, is remarkable and quite an eye opener for me. What you describe implies total conscious awareness of his own sexual attraction AND forethought of planning the subsequent events. I am not certain that is what was intended by Annie Proulx, or Ang Lee. However, I can see that can be what Jake interpreted, or Heath suggested, as Heath was also photographed in that pose. So it may be that Heath suggested this, and was adopted by Ang Lee as part of the story. It would make sense of a lot of the loose ends, i.e. FNIT, etc. It is exactly the kind of pose that Heath was good at, speaking volumes of emotional subtext with the minimum of body language.

I see Jack being the guy who wants to spotlight, and Ennis admired that. It is the seed of their friendship. Jack needed Ennis' admiration and attention. Ennis was willing to give it, as long as Jack was willing to respect Ennis as the better cowboy. "My daddy thought all rodeo cowboys are a bunch of f#$%ups...I tell you what...I think my daddy was right." Even jokingly, Ennis knew that Jack was all show, but he was the better cowboy.

Whether or not there was sexual tension in Ennis on that first day...is the question that...well...only Ennis can answer. I don't see it myself, but I am not that good at reading sexual signals.   

[manhattangirl]

Can I butt in guys.   Ennis was a loner, he was that all his life, except with Jack.   Now the scene after the final confrontation, when Ennis was in the diner, to looked to me as if he was fading away.  He gestures alone was a sign of man making effort at living,  even eating that piece of pie was looked hard for him to do. 

He was nothing without Jack, and maybe Cassie was a wake up call, that loving was about staying alive.   I don't think this made Ennis a "people person", but it might have made him more receptive to the idea that love was part of living. 

JMO

[Tony]

   Now the scene after the final confrontation, when Ennis was in the diner, to looked to me as if he was fading away.  He gestures alone was a sign of man making effort at living,  even eating that piece of pie was looked hard for him to do. 

 

   Manhattangirl, those words, "fading away", were the words I felt but could not find.   But there seem to be just slight, very slight differences in what that meant.  I fully agree, with you and Andrew, he was confronting the fact "this thing.." had a name: love, and that he could not be happy without Jack.
  But either it is because I want to see it, or because it is there, that fading away could well mean the dying of the old Ennis (no place left to go), and the levelling off of room for a new Ennis, someone who had no other choice but to eventually change, in order to keep Jack.  Change, for Ennis, would be fearful and depressing, but I think he saw that lay somewhere past the death of all his stubborn ways.
  Yeah, he's fading away, and very depressed.  No, I don't see that ending in retreat, unto himself.  All hinged on the next meeting.  Until then, the process was dying, then stabilizing, and then, as the next meeting approached, re-birth.  He just had to die a little, first, and that terrible process, IMO, was what we are seeing.  I do not see him staying in that stage, nor re-uniting with Jack without some concessions.  He loved Jack so much, though, some part of himself had to give way, or, if you will, fade away.  And that was painful.

[lancecowboy]

Can I butt in guys.   Ennis was a loner, he was that all his life, except with Jack.   Now the scene after the final confrontation, when Ennis was in the diner, to looked to me as if he was fading away.  He gestures alone was a sign of man making effort at living,  even eating that piece of pie was looked hard for him to do. 

He was nothing without Jack, and maybe Cassie was a wake up call, that loving was about staying alive.   I don't think this made Ennis a "people person", but it might have made him more receptive to the idea that love was part of living. 

JMO

You never butt in manhattangirl. You zero in with laser-guided precision surgical strikes. I have to watch the scene again to debate the subtly of whether Ennis is fading away or shutting himself up or being miserable finding a way to get back with Jack. I haven't seen this for a while, and there may be more to it that I realized.

However, having said that, I agree totally about Cassie being a wake up call to the guy ready to shut out the world, or perhaps, the guy not aware that there is a whole fascinating world outside of the handle around the coffee pot.  I love and concur with "love was part of living". In fact, I will go you one more than that, "loving is living." I think that's why we can sense the similarity between Cassie and Jack, they are both filled with love for Ennis, and alive with their love of living. Ennis is a lucky guy and didn't even know it. Fear can make a man dumb and blind.

[manhattangirl]

You never butt in manhattangirl. You zero in with laser-guided precision surgical strikes. I have to watch the scene again to debate the subtly of whether Ennis is fading away or shutting himself up or being miserable finding a way to get back with Jack. I haven't seen this for a while, and there may be more to it that I realized.

However, having said that, I agree totally about Cassie being a wake up call to the guy ready to shut out the world, or perhaps, the guy not aware that there is a whole fascinating world outside of the handle around the coffee pot.  I love and concur with "love was part of living". In fact, I will go you one more than that, "loving is living." I think that's why we can sense the similarity between Cassie and Jack, they are both filled with love for Ennis, and alive with their love of living. Ennis is a lucky guy and didn't even know it. Fear can make a man dumb and blind.

And remember Ennis reaction to both situations, Cassie with Carl, no reaction, Jack with anyone else, threats, this is where those signs in Ennis you have watch to understand him.  Ennis without knowing was telling more about himself, his love for Jack, even when he didn't understand it himself.  What pains me is that he didn't understand that it was love all along until the moment he was sitting with Alma, Jr.

[manhattangirl]

   Manhattangirl, those words, "fading away", were the words I felt but could not find.   But there seem to be just slight, very slight differences in what that meant.  I fully agree, with you and Andrew, he was confronting the fact "this thing.." had a name: love, and that he could not be happy without Jack.
  But either it is because I want to see it, or because it is there, that fading away could well mean the dying of the old Ennis (no place left to go), and the levelling off of room for a new Ennis, someone who had no other choice but to eventually change, in order to keep Jack.  Change, for Ennis, would be fearful and depressing, but I think he saw that lay somewhere past the death of all his stubborn ways.
  Yeah, he's fading away, and very depressed.  No, I don't see that ending in retreat, unto himself.  All hinged on the next meeting.  Until then, the process was dying, then stabilizing, and then, as the next meeting approached, re-birth.  He just had to die a little, first, and that terrible process, IMO, was what we are seeing.  I do not see him staying in that stage, nor re-uniting with Jack without some concessions.  He loved Jack so much, though, some part of himself had to give way, or, if you will, fade away.  And that was painful.

Ennis may have not been aware of what was going on with him.  But living in the way he insisted was saving his life was in fact killing whatever life he had in him.  The only time where he felt life was with Jack, but this ingrain, stubborn insistance on living as he did, was taking away any will to live.   

Alma, Jr. was the torch he needed to show him the way, what he was feeling was love.

JMO.

[tpe]

For me it was all there in embryo right from the first few moments outside Aguirre's trailer, the sort of situation where interest is aroused and attraction dimly felt. The rest is immanent (in the pantheistic sense), though not understood be Ennis and maybe only perceived by Jack. Love perhaps comes at once in the coup de foudre but isn't expressed or maybe even isn;t acknowledged at first.

Somehow, I think what you say here is very close to how it actually happens in most cases. 

[tpe]

He was nothing without Jack, and maybe Cassie was a wake up call, that loving was about staying alive.   I don't think this made Ennis a "people person", but it might have made him more receptive to the idea that love was part of living. 

JMO

However, having said that, I agree totally about Cassie being a wake up call to the guy ready to shut out the world, or perhaps, the guy not aware that there is a whole fascinating world outside of the handle around the coffee pot.  I love and concur with "love was part of living". In fact, I will go you one more than that, "loving is living." I think that's why we can sense the similarity between Cassie and Jack, they are both filled with love for Ennis, and alive with their love of living. Ennis is a lucky guy and didn't even know it. Fear can make a man dumb and blind.

If nothing, Jack's death (and/or Cassie's leaving him) taught Ennis to value life, and to acknowledge love as part of living it, as you say here.

[Tony]

    Well, what's a thread for, if you can't explore a little?  And it has occurred to me that on the subject of friendship, sex, and love, there's a simple, maybe simplistic approach I haven't seen anybody ever bother with and that is, who are you comfortable with?
   If you apply this approach to everybody, boy do you get whole new categories.  How about men who are straight but are basically uncomfortable with women?  Think of how many marriages are ensnarled because the husband wants to spend most of his free time with his buddies.  How about the ancient Greek/Roman model where, it was plausible for a male to have sex with women, but could only, comfortably, admire and love another man?
How about Oprah, and her contribution for making women feel comfortable....with each other?  This approach ends up with all new categories of who we are and how we live our lives.
   So, trying to apply this first, to Ennis:
      -on friendship, this is a little tricky.  Ennis blended in with other males very well, but seemed comfortable only with Jack, as the only male friend of his life.
     -on sex, he seemed easily comfortable with sex with women, uncomfortable with the thought of sex with males in general, but, past comfortability, went to heavy lust only with Jack.
     -on love, he was vaguely comfortable with Alma and Cassie, but not committed completely.  He was uncomfortable loving Jack but there was no way around that powerful force in his life.

  Going to Jack:
    -Jack was the reverse of Ennis on friendship.  He was comfortable with other males, but he didn't blend in.  Exact opposite of Ennis.
    -on sex, he was very comfortable with sex with ANYBODY.  Am sorry.  It's true.  I'll duck and run from the rotten tomatoes, but it's still true.
    -on love, he tried to be comfortable with Lureen, and it started off that way, but it's not impossible the failure of the marriage was that he never really loved her.

     Finally, at the start of the movie, we see Ennis uncomfortable with everybody, including himself.  Outside Aguirre's trailer.  He becomes fairly comfortable with Alma, extremely comfortable with his daughters, reasonably comfortable to the non-entity that was Monroe, but other than Jack, never really comfortable with anybody else, male or female.
   Strangely enough, at the end of the film, we find him extremely comfortable, alone, with himself, his own soul.  The Ennis putting numbers up on the mailbox is at peace with himself, a complete foil to the Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer, shifting his feet, looking down at the ground.  He continued to grieve, terribly, but strangely enough, was comfortable with himself.  Friendship, sex, and love, and the comfort derived from them, had, I think, healed his soul.
   That's all.  The approach of whom you are comfortable with re-arranges everybody into whole new categories, for friendship, sex, and love.  And maybe we aren't who we think we are until this is factored in.  Just rambling is all.  It's a slow Monday.  But try it on yourself and see does it show different results.  Who are you comfortable with, in those categories, and then, maybe go to Ennis and Jack a little differently. Doesn't hurt.

[tpe]

    Well, what's a thread for, if you can't explore a little?  And it has occurred to me that on the subject of friendship, sex, and love, there's a simple, maybe simplistic approach I haven't seen anybody ever bother with and that is, who are you comfortable with?
   If you apply this approach to everybody, boy do you get whole new categories.  How about men who are straight but are basically uncomfortable with women?  Think of how many marriages are ensnarled because the husband wants to spend most of his free time with his buddies.  How about the ancient Greek/Roman model where, it was plausible for a male to have sex with women, but could only, comfortably, admire and love another man?
How about Oprah, and her contribution for making women feel comfortable....with each other?  This approach ends up with all new categories of who we are and how we live our lives.
   So, trying to apply this first, to Ennis:
      -on friendship, this is a little tricky.  Ennis blended in with other males very well, but seemed comfortable only with Jack, as the only male friend of his life.
     -on sex, he seemed easily comfortable with sex with women, uncomfortable with the thought of sex with males in general, but, past comfortability, went to heavy lust only with Jack.
     -on love, he was vaguely comfortable with Alma and Cassie, but not committed completely.  He was uncomfortable loving Jack but there was no way around that powerful force in his life.
  Going to Jack:
    -Jack was the reverse of Ennis on friendship.  He was comfortable with other males, but he didn't blend in.  Exact opposite of Ennis.
    -on sex, he was very comfortable with sex with ANYBODY.  Am sorry.  It's true.  I'll duck and run from the rotten tomatoes, but it's still true.
    -on love, he tried to be comfortable with Lureen, and it started off that way, but it's not impossible the failure of the marriage was that he never really loved her.

     Finally, at the start of the movie, we see Ennis uncomfortable with everybody, including himself.  Outside Aguirre's trailer.  He becomes fairly comfortable with Alma, extremely comfortable with his daughters, reasonably comfortable to the non-entity that was Monroe, but other than Jack, never really comfortable with anybody else, male or female.
   Strangely enough, at the end of the film, we find him extremely comfortable, alone, with himself, his own soul.  The Ennis putting numbers up on the mailbox is at peace with himself, a complete foil to the Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer, shifting his feet, looking down at the ground.  He continued to grieve, terribly, but strangely enough, was comfortable with himself.  Friendship, sex, and love, and the comfort derived from them, had, I think, healed his soul.
   That's all.  The approach of whom you are comfortable with re-arranges everybody into whole new categories, for friendship, sex, and love.  And maybe we aren't who we think we are until this is factored in.  Just rambling is all.  It's a slow Monday.  But try it on yourself and see does it show different results.  Who are you comfortable with, in those categories, and then, maybe go to Ennis and Jack a little differently. Doesn't hurt.

Just to start the ball rolling on a discussion.  I want to comment on the points raised with Ennis.  Was he really comfortable with other men, and was he really comfortable with sex with women?  It would seem to me that he was not very comfortable with anybody -- man or woman, in either sex or in a relationship; I am excluding Jack, of course.  But it does seem to me that he really didn't have any friends or buddies to hang around with.  And as far as sex with women, his flipping Alma over does seem to indicate that he was not comfoprtable with the usual mode of heterosexual intercourse.  Granted, it may be his favorite form of contraception, but it still indicates a discomfort with the more usual modes of love-making.

[lancecowboy]

    Well, what's a thread for, if you can't explore a little?  And it has occurred to me that on the subject of friendship, sex, and love, there's a simple, maybe simplistic approach I haven't seen anybody ever bother with and that is, who are you comfortable with?
   If you apply this approach to everybody, boy do you get whole new categories.  How about men who are straight but are basically uncomfortable with women?  Think of how many marriages are ensnarled because the husband wants to spend most of his free time with his buddies.  How about the ancient Greek/Roman model where, it was plausible for a male to have sex with women, but could only, comfortably, admire and love another man?
How about Oprah, and her contribution for making women feel comfortable....with each other?  This approach ends up with all new categories of who we are and how we live our lives.
   So, trying to apply this first, to Ennis:
      -on friendship, this is a little tricky.  Ennis blended in with other males very well, but seemed comfortable only with Jack, as the only male friend of his life.
     -on sex, he seemed easily comfortable with sex with women, uncomfortable with the thought of sex with males in general, but, past comfortability, went to heavy lust only with Jack.
     -on love, he was vaguely comfortable with Alma and Cassie, but not committed completely.  He was uncomfortable loving Jack but there was no way around that powerful force in his life.

  Going to Jack:
    -Jack was the reverse of Ennis on friendship.  He was comfortable with other males, but he didn't blend in.  Exact opposite of Ennis.
    -on sex, he was very comfortable with sex with ANYBODY.  Am sorry.  It's true.  I'll duck and run from the rotten tomatoes, but it's still true.
    -on love, he tried to be comfortable with Lureen, and it started off that way, but it's not impossible the failure of the marriage was that he never really loved her.

     Finally, at the start of the movie, we see Ennis uncomfortable with everybody, including himself.  Outside Aguirre's trailer.  He becomes fairly comfortable with Alma, extremely comfortable with his daughters, reasonably comfortable to the non-entity that was Monroe, but other than Jack, never really comfortable with anybody else, male or female.
   Strangely enough, at the end of the film, we find him extremely comfortable, alone, with himself, his own soul.  The Ennis putting numbers up on the mailbox is at peace with himself, a complete foil to the Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer, shifting his feet, looking down at the ground.  He continued to grieve, terribly, but strangely enough, was comfortable with himself.  Friendship, sex, and love, and the comfort derived from them, had, I think, healed his soul.
   That's all.  The approach of whom you are comfortable with re-arranges everybody into whole new categories, for friendship, sex, and love.  And maybe we aren't who we think we are until this is factored in.  Just rambling is all.  It's a slow Monday.  But try it on yourself and see does it show different results.  Who are you comfortable with, in those categories, and then, maybe go to Ennis and Jack a little differently. Doesn't hurt.

Yet another thought provoking post, Tony. I love the whole concept of people who feel comfortable with people...isn't this how friendship begins? At the same time, I hesitate to generalize too much, because there are almost always exceptions to any generalization, including this one.

I agree that Ennis is the kind of person who would disappear in a crowd, blendingin to the background, but he is also able to make individual friends, like Don Wroe, who lend him the cabin, or even his best man at the wedding. So Ennis is not the total loner. But he keeps a respectful distance from all people, like all lonesome cowboys, except with Jack, who he lets in after SNIT. It's that pivotal night that changed everything for Ennis.

It also occurred to me that Ennis' relationships with women maybe colored by Heath's own relationship with women, so that Ennis in the movie was able to have deeper more meaningful relationships then Ennis in the short story, as Annie Proulx intended. Ennis was suppose to be a cowboy's cowboy, not a lady's man.

And in defense of Jack, (without throwing rocks or anything) I don't think he sleeps with just anyone, only people who reminded him of Ennis. He needed Ennis so bad, he NEEDED a substitute when he couldn't have the real deal. It's no excuse, I admit, but who am I to judge Jack? I wish I can feel half the love he has for Ennis - driving 14 hrs each way...for twenty years...

I think his relationship with Lureen was doomed from the beginning because Old Man Newsome was always butting in between them. He could not let go of his little girl, and she didn't have the heart or gut to tell him off. When Jack finally stood up to him, she was all smiles. I think they really loved each other, but perhaps the love with Ennis was just too overwhelming, and the drinking did not help. She really missed him when he died.

And your observation that Ennis became very comfortable with his own skin at the end of the movie is precisely my point from the beginning. I felt good with the ending because I felt Ennis accepting himself, his lot in life, and finally learned to treasure his memories with Jack. And the mailbox is his way of taking root, to be closer to his girls and Jack's Ma. I suppose, in the diner when Cassie walked in, he was NOT retreating into Fortress Ennis as I said earlier, but he was making camp, ready to live out the rest of his life alone, accepting fate, miserable as it was. That's probably why we saw different in the scene. You saw the misery; I saw the acceptance for loneliness. We are probably both right to some degree.

Thanks for the lead into uncharted territory.

[Tony]

     Andrew and Thomas, thanks for taking the subject seriously. "Comfortable" is so vapid a word, it's hard to imagine it could be a surgical probe, prying loose one personality trait from another, and yet....it works.  Or at least it does for me.
    I do think Ennis was uncomfortable with everybody, because he was uncomfortable with himself, but all of that only to a certain degree.  He looks comfortable with, but indifferent to other males, ending up uncomfortable with any REAL interaction. That's hopefully not a sloppy sentence but rather, carefully worded.  He certainly did blend in with other males and they accepted him, readily.
   Not so, Jack.  HE felt comfortable with other males, tentatively, but did not blend in, as he was invariably identified as too lively or not of the standard mold.

  As for sex, I still see Ennis comfortable with regular sex with women.  Someone expanded the film version, allowing for possible new meaning.  The SS has Ennis preferring rear entry.  Yet, reviewing the scene with Alma, she enticed him, she expected regular intercourse (and clearly, from her breathing acceleration, she had had much satisfaction, before), but, instead, he flips her over, and she did NOT expect that.  The only clue we are given is the perceptible, but subtle freeze-up in Ennis' face when she mentions his loneliness as a child.  It's visible.  He's altered.  Leaving a possible connection between FNIT and that scene:  you touch upon Ennis' loneliness, or challenge it, and that's his response-primitive.  In the film only.
  Finally, Andrew, it may be that you defend Jack's virtue out of loyalty and I undermine it, as I am a card-carrying, registered scaliwag.  But i still say he'd have sex with ANYBODY. The guy in the alley in Mexico, Randall, and even LaShawn, weren't particularly unattractive, but they really weren't as attractive as, say, Cassie, or Lureen.  Am sorry I see him as an equal-opportunity boinger, or seem to.  Maybe I should just say: love-puppy, available if you caught him at the right time.  Which would be.... morning, noon, and night.
  Again, the phrase "comfortable with" doesn't seem too promising, and yet, given the variations in any one personality, IMO, it's got some surprising results, when applied.

[tpe]

Well, I think about it sometimes, and I do feel that both of them (Ennis and Jack) didn't exactly bl;end in with other males.  Ennis was espceially confrontational in many of the scenes he had with other men (the man stopping by the alleyway, the trck driver that beat him, the bikers).  Even his attitude to Monroe was ambivalent -- not a single word exchanged in the Thanksgiving scene, if you recall.

As for Jack, one can say the same thing, except instead of being confrontational, he was more a subtle, if you get my drift.  He certainly connected with Randall, even though he failed with the rodeo clown.   His dealing with the elder Newsome were certainly not confrontational until the Thanksgiving scene, when he felt that he had no choice.  He was adept in signals, I guess.  One did feel that he was more of a ladies man, no? 

But I did feel that both of them had a distinct ambivalence and guardedness (e.g., that scene with Randall at the bench) that spoke of an unease with other human beings -- male or female.

[lancecowboy]

     [...]
    I do think Ennis was uncomfortable with everybody, because he was uncomfortable with himself, but all of that only to a certain degree.  He looks comfortable with, but indifferent to other males, ending up uncomfortable with any REAL interaction. That's hopefully not a sloppy sentence but rather, carefully worded.  He certainly did blend in with other males and they accepted him, readily.
   Not so, Jack.  HE felt comfortable with other males, tentatively, but did not blend in, as he was invariably identified as too lively or not of the standard mold.

  As for sex, I still see Ennis comfortable with regular sex with women.  Someone expanded the film version, allowing for possible new meaning.  The SS has Ennis preferring rear entry.  Yet, reviewing the scene with Alma, she enticed him, she expected regular intercourse (and clearly, from her breathing acceleration, she had had much satisfaction, before), but, instead, he flips her over, and she did NOT expect that.  The only clue we are given is the perceptible, but subtle freeze-up in Ennis' face when she mentions his loneliness as a child.  It's visible.  He's altered.  Leaving a possible connection between FNIT and that scene:  you touch upon Ennis' loneliness, or challenge it, and that's his response-primitive.  In the film only.
  Finally, Andrew, it may be that you defend Jack's virtue out of loyalty and I undermine it, as I am a card-carrying, registered scaliwag.  But i still say he'd have sex with ANYBODY. The guy in the alley in Mexico, Randall, and even LaShawn, weren't particularly unattractive, but they really weren't as attractive as, say, Cassie, or Lureen.  Am sorry I see him as an equal-opportunity boinger, or seem to.  Maybe I should just say: love-puppy, available if you caught him at the right time. Which would be.... morning, noon, and night.
  Again, the phrase "comfortable with" doesn't seem too promising, and yet, given the variations in any one personality, IMO, it's got some surprising results, when applied.

Tony, I think you got Ennis and Jack pegged exactly right when it comes to comfort level. I can related to Ennis precisely because that's me...uncomfortable with myself, which translates to uncomfortable with everyone else...which translates to content with lonesome living. Thanks to many months of transformation and evolution, I am more comfortable with myself, and with others, but there are still long ways to go, as with Ennis in the final scenes.

I don't know if it is loyalty or just benefit of the doubt. I like what you say about love-sick puppy because in a way, Jack is love-sick for Ennis. But I don't think he would jump into bed with just anyone. First of all, he did NOT go with Lashawn. It was Randall. And secondly, of the three people who Jack hooked up with, or tried to hook up with: 1) rodeo clown - this was after the split, and four years later...and the guy does look a lot like Ennis from behind, 2) Mexican - tall, and masculine, and not bad looking, so what more is there to do...a cowboy hat and you have an Ennis substitute, 3) Randall - again tall, masculine, and even educated. I think that last bit was the most attractive to Jack because by this time, twenty years of Jack-bashing from old man Newsome was really tiring. He needed to feel that he was loveable by someone with credentials.

I am not saying any of it was justified. I am only saying I understand the love-sick puppy feeling because I've been there. And I wish Jack never went there, and stayed faithful to Ennis. In fact, I believe I mentioned months ago, that the three scenes of Jack chatting up these three fellas are the three scenes that I dislike the most.

Anyhow, I think you got Jack and Ennis figured out, in terms of their comfort level with other people, and even with themselves. Ennis was not loved as a child and so felt uncomfortable with anyone, not even with himself. Jack was loved by Jack's Ma so he has that much going for his self-confidence and self-image, but he was also pissed on by men in general, and the Old Man in particular, so he was always expecting other men to do the same. In a way, it is why Ennis can get alone with other men better than Jack. Ennis had a good relationship with his dad, even though the guy never showed any love.

[tpe]

I am not saying any of it was justified. I am only saying I understand the love-sick puppy feeling because I've been there. And I wish Jack never went there, and stayed faithful to Ennis. In fact, I believe I mentioned months ago, that the three scenes of Jack chatting up these three fellas are the three scenes that I dislike the most.

They are uncomfortable.  But they do show a striking difference between Ennis and Jack.  Both of them needed companionship deep down.  But Jack actively sought companionship while Ennis was content to "stand" the life of a loner, even though he desired otherwise.  I think he married Alma out of a sense of "duty" to society -- one was expected to marry as one broke out on one's own.  After this failed marriage, he gave out very few concessions, even to Jack.  Not that he didn't want Jack's companionship -- he just thought that it was too good to grab with both hands.

You are of course familiar with the central tenet of Shaun in "Shelter" -- if you don't take, how will you ever get what you desire?