Author Topic: Randall (Read 227189 times)

aintfoolin · « **Reply #30 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 12:07 PM »

I suppose your right.

tpe · « **Reply #31 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 12:13 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 07, 2006, 12:07 PM

I suppose your right.

I don't think there is really a wrong here. Sure, Jack was more sex-driven. But we can all relate to that. We feel the same pain and the need for release.

Thanks aintfoolin for bringing this up.

frances · « **Reply #32 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 12:40 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 07, 2006, 11:57 AM

I suspect his case is more common in real life than with Ennis. .[/b]

You're definitely right!

tpe · « **Reply #33 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 12:52 PM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 07, 2006, 12:40 PM

Quote from: tpe on Jul 07, 2006, 11:57 AM

I suspect his case is more common in real life than with Ennis. .[/b]

You're definitely right!

Why is it always easier to give in than it is to resist? Did Jack even try to resist? From the look on his face when Randall "proposed" the fishing trip to him, I would say: yes. To me, he had Ennis in mind at that moment. He was hesitating on what to do. To me, he somehow felt that in many ways, he was Ennis's, body and soul -- something that could be easily given away. And yet, I think he did give in to his desires inevitably.

What is the demarcation line? What balance played between faithfulness and betrayal? For Randall was no anonymous Mexican husler that signified a threat to his love for Ennis. Perhaps he initially approached this without any serious intention of getting emotionally involved. But Jack's oblique confession to Ennis in their last meeting about an affair with the "ranch neighbor's wife" certainly tells us that his involvement with Randall was beginning to rankle him inside.

The complexity of Jack's character is beautiful to contemplate. The relationship with Randall is but one glittering facet in this flawed gem.

browneyes · « **Reply #34 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 12:53 PM »

Tpe. I totally doubt Jack took Randall up to see his parents. I think he was just mentioning Randall to his Dad out of anger (right after the final meeting with Ennis). His Dad says it like Jack was just talking about another fella not that the actual guy ever came. According to Jack's dad he said Jack is gonna "split up with his wife". If Randall ever came to the parents house. I think his dad would say something like "they're both gonna split up with their wives". Maybe Randall wasn't even aware Jack told his parents that he was planning to move up their with him.

tpe · « **Reply #35 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 12:59 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 12:53 PM

Tpe. I totally doubt Jack took Randall up to see his parents. I think he was just mentioning Randall to his Dad out of anger (right after the final meeting with Ennis). His Dad says it like Jack was just talking about another fella not that the actual guy ever came. According to Jack's dad he said Jack is gonna "split up with his wife". If Randall ever came to the parents house. I think his dad would say something like "they're both gonna split up with their wives". Maybe Randall wasn't even aware Jack told his parents that.

I agree. I do think he never brought Randall to Lightning Flat. Randall may not have been aware of Jack's family history.

But whether the intent was there or not -- this remains ambiguous.

For me, this is the beauty of Jack's character. He is very close to what we think of as "life".

browneyes · « **Reply #36 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:02 PM »

I am so sorry tpe. I thought u wrote that Jack brought Randall up to meet his parents, it was actually aintfoolin . I'm sorry.

Well, aintfoolin! I don't think Jack ever brought up Randall to his parents house.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #37 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:04 PM »

Can I just say I don't really like Randall??

frances · « **Reply #38 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:05 PM »

Quote from: Esme on Jul 07, 2006, 01:04 PM

Can I just say I don't really like Randall??

Who does?

tpe · « **Reply #39 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:07 PM »

Quote from: Esme on Jul 07, 2006, 01:04 PM

Can I just say I don't really like Randall??

But you must be dragged into the quagmire of discussing him.

Joking aside, I can't tell exactly how or what I feel about the character. He is shadowy to me...

browneyes · « **Reply #40 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:12 PM »

I just hate how he came on to Jack and how Jack was interested. It's just like "JACK, what about Ennis?". But I guess at the same time Ennis started something with Cassie. Jack knows he's gay, so he wants to have sex with a guy. Ennis thinks he is straight, so he will get a girl[Cassie].

tpe · « **Reply #41 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:19 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 01:12 PM

I just hate how he came on to Jack and how Jack was interested. It's just like "JACK, what about Ennis?". But I guess at the same time Ennis started something with Cassie. Jack knows he's gay, so he wants to have sex with a guy. Ennis thinks he is straight, so he will get a girl[Cassie].

But the case of Cassie really isn't the same, no? It seemed to me that both Ennis and Jack did not feel threatened by relationships between their lover and other women. Had Ennis taken up with another man, I am sure it would have set Jack on fire... Whether Ennis was capable of doing this or not touches on a discussion of sexuality, which is conveniently located in another thread...

Thanks browneyes.

browneyes · « **Reply #42 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:24 PM »

You're right. I guess thats why I get mad at Jack for having a relationship with another guy instead of getting mad at Ennis. It just makes me upset whether Randall and Jack were just f**k buddies or if their were feelings (even though I doubt it). I just read in cosmopolitan about how guys can have a sexual partner/relationship for years and not have any emotional feelings for them.

tpe · « **Reply #43 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:44 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 01:24 PM

You're right. I guess thats why I get mad at Jack for having a relationship with another guy instead of getting mad at Ennis. It just makes me upset whether Randall and Jack were just f**k buddies or if their were feelings (even though I doubt it). I just read in cosmopolitan about how guys can have a sexual partner/relationship for years and not have any emotional feelings for them.

To be sure, there seem to be relationships driven less by emotions than by sexual needs. It upsets me too, to contemplate even the possibility of Jack feeling for Randall on a more deeper level. But the mere fact that we are both upset by this tells us a lot of how much their love has become a part of us. True Art can do this...

browneyes · « **Reply #44 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:52 PM »

I totally agree. But whether he had feelings for Randall or not, the fact that he kept the shirts tells us everything we need to know. After the last meeting with Ennis, Jack was probably angry and disappointed. If it was me i probably would've burned those shirts. But Jack was so in love with Ennis, he kept the shirts. I think Jack probably realized he couldn't have a life with Randall because: 1) He wouldn't be happy and 2) He would've still seen Ennis every chance he got. The only time Ennis and Jack were even close to happy was when they were together, and the only time they were truly happy was on Brokeback.

tpe · « **Reply #45 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 01:57 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 01:52 PM

The only time Ennis and Jack were even close to happy was when they were together, and the only time they were truly happy was on Brokeback.

This is the faith I keep, in beauty and in sadness. I cannot prove, nor can I fathom. I only know that this I see.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #46 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:05 PM »

Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?

browneyes · « **Reply #47 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:10 PM »

In the screenplay it says it was '81. However it's probably incorrect. In the short story it was May of '83. Which is spring. Thats why I believe Jack told his Dad about the other fella, out of anger right after the meeting with Ennis. Because Jack's Dad said "this spring". Which is wy I think he told the parents about Randall out of anger. I don't think he went all the way back to Texas, got Randall, went all the way back to Wyoming, and said "Dad this is another fella...", and then he went all the way back to Texas (and eventually died)

tpe · « **Reply #48 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:14 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 07, 2006, 02:05 PM

Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?

This is a tricky question.

If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it is most likely that:

1. The last meeting took place in the fall of 1981.

2. Jack came back in the spring of 1982 to Lightning Flat to inform his parents of his intention to divorce Lureen and move back with Randall.

3. Jack died sometime early summer of 1982.

4. Ennis's visit to Lightning Flat occured in the fall of 1982.

tpe · « **Reply #49 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:26 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 07, 2006, 02:14 PM

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 07, 2006, 02:05 PM
Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?

This is a tricky question.

If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it is most likely that:

1. The last meeting took place in the fall of 1981.

2. Jack came back in the spring of 1982 to Lightning Flat to inform his parents of his intention to divorce Lureen and move back with Randall.

3. Jack died sometime early summer of 1982.

4. Ennis's visit to Lightning Flat occured in the fall of 1982.

I have always been puzzled with Jake Gyllenhaal's comment in an interview about Jack bringing Randall back to Lightning Flat with him. From the final cut of the movie, it is clear that Randall never got to Lightning Flat. Was Gyllenhaal perhaps privy to a cut scene from the movie that actually showed Randall going up with Jack to Lightning Flat? Perhaps the "accident" intruded along the way? Pure speculation on my part...

Mélanos · « **Reply #50 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:39 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 07, 2006, 02:14 PM

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 07, 2006, 02:05 PM
Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?

This is a tricky question.

If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it is most likely that:

1. The last meeting took place in the fall of 1981.

2. Jack came back in the spring of 1982 to Lightning Flat to inform his parents of his intention to divorce Lureen and move back with Randall.

3. Jack died sometime early summer of 1982.

4. Ennis's visit to Lightning Flat occured in the fall of 1982.

Sorry to disagree, tpe, it seems to me that the last meeting took place in may 81 (just before the promised august) and the visit at Lightning Flat went immediatly after (Jack told Ennis of his purpose)...
Time line is a "goddamn b** of a unsatisfactory thing" in the screenplay, so we may have not to bother about it.

Jack did not spent 4 years with that shadow of Randall. We must keep to the film, and the film only: remember what we see, the face of Jack, full of sadness, Jack is dying without Ennis! Immediatly after that is the last camp and that is what matter. The path of time is not realistic in this movie! Jack is trying to hook Ennis and Ennis is so proud to talk about Cassie "look, I'm no queer" So Jack tell him what he want to hear "look, me neither" and immediatly after the TRUTH, sometimes, I miss you so bad... Randall has nothing to do with that. Who speaks of Randall, that is John Twist who is pure hatred and he does it to wound Ennis, he tried to destroy!

browneyes · « **Reply #51 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:44 PM »

So Melanos. You don't think Jack was with Randall at all? However, I think the date of thier last meeting was May of '83. Like the short story.

tpe · « **Reply #52 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:52 PM »

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 07, 2006, 02:39 PM

[Sorry to disagree, tpe, it seems to me that the last meeting took place in may 81 (just before the promised august) and the visit at Lightning Flat went immediatly after (Jack told Ennis of his purpose)...
Time line is a "goddamn b** of a unsatisfactory thing" in the screenplay, so we may have not to bother about it.

Jack did not spent 4 years with that shadow of Randall. We must keep to the film, and the film only: remember what we see, the face of Jack, full of sadness, Jack is dying without Ennis! Immediatly after that is the last camp and that is what matter. The path of time is not realistic in this movie! Jack is trying to hook Ennis and Ennis is so proud to talk about Cassie "look, I'm no queer" So Jack tell him what he want to hear "look, me neither" and immediatly after the TRUTH, sometimes, I miss you so bad... Randall has nothing to do with that. Who speaks of Randall, that is John Twist who is pure hatred and he does it to wound Ennis, he tried to destroy!

Mélanos, there is a thread where this entire problem has been discussed with some hand-wringing!

The screenplay says that Jack's death occured in 1982 and that the last meeting in 1981. If Jack died in 1982, then the projected November meeting could not have been in November of 1981. The projected meeting will then be November of 1982.

Since snow was mentioned in the last meeting, there are only 2 possibilities:

1. spring of 1981

2. fall of 1981

If the projected meeting is set for November of 1982, then fall of 1981 would be the most likely and reasonable date for the last meeting. This still gives a WHOLE YEAR between the last meeting and the projected meeting...

I also believe that Jack tried to keep his affair with Randall in check -- perhaps even trying to avoid it for most of the intervening years.

And yes, the dates are problematic. But we can arrive at one reasonable scenario for the screenplay dates, and this is discussed in the thread dealing with the timeline of the last scenes.

I throw up my hands in despair!

welshwitch · « **Reply #53 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:54 PM »

I think their last meeting was in May; as his cover story was always that he was going to see his parents, I assume Jack went on to Lightning Flat and full of rage, frustration, misery, told his parents that he might be going to leave Lureen and might be bringing another rancher up with him to work the ranch, the two not necessarily too clearly connected.

AS far as Randall goes, there is a point when, if you're involved in an intensely physical affair, your sensitivities are much greater than normal and it sems almost impossible to exist without some physical connection with someone; maybe Jack's in that state and Randall happens to be convenient. I think Jack is evidently more highly sexed than Ennis anyway - Ennis seems to be intensely physically involved with Jack when Jack's there, but able to shut off his need for him when he's not.

browneyes · « **Reply #54 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 02:56 PM »

"I also believe that Jack tried to keep his affair with Randall in check -- perhaps even trying to avoid it for most of the intervening years"

what does that mean, sorry.

tpe · « **Reply #55 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 03:03 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 02:56 PM

"I also believe that Jack tried to keep his affair with Randall in check -- perhaps even trying to avoid it for most of the intervening years"

what does that mean, sorry.

That he consciously made an effort to avoid going with Randall on these fishing trips.

I wouild have preferred NEVER, but from Jack's oblique confession, it seemed that he did by then go out with Randall...

browneyes · « **Reply #56 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 03:07 PM »

I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".

tpe · « **Reply #57 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 03:11 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 03:07 PM

I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".

browneyes , I am not really sure about the "I want sex" part of it. It seemed to me that he had a blank stare, and I had always interpreted this look as an indication that he was thinking about Ennis.

There is one other look that approximates this look in the Randall scene: the first dance with Lureen. Here, in the midst of the dance with Lureen, he is thinking of Ennis -- at least this is my interpretation...

Rønnaug · « **Reply #58 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 03:12 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 03:07 PM

I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".

Or rather... Randal says "I want someone to f*uck" and Jack thinking "oh my" imo

Rønnaug · « **Reply #59 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 03:13 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 07, 2006, 03:11 PM

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 07, 2006, 03:07 PM
I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".

browneyes , I am not really sure about the "I want sex" part of it. It seemed to me that he had a blank stare, and I had always interpreted this look as an indication that he was thinking about Ennis.

There is one other look that approximates this look in the Randall scene: the first dance with Lureen. Here, in the midst of the dance with Lureen, he is thinking of Ennis -- at least this is my interpretation...

I agree tpe...