Topic: Significane of Ennis entering the Tent *Spoiler*

[vedrana]

He married Alma because he probably felt that he had to follow his brither's footsteps and that marriage was something one did as part of becoming a man.

In the case of Jack and the beginning of SNIT, he probably faced his feelings and desires for the very first time -- a sort of coming of age process on a very different level.

I believe that it isn't only the brother, but the whole society and the tradition. Nowadays is more acceptable to live out of the marriage, but back then 1963, in Wyoming... nope! I doubt that he ever questioned the decision to live within the marriage with Alma. Maybe not even when Jack came back in 1967....

Sometimes I have a feeling that for Ennis it would have took much much more that one little step to give up the society rules and to become a pioneer in the way of life he chose for himself.

[myprivatejack]

Yes,surely for Ennis marrying Alma was a further step in his "learning trip" to becoming a man;what's more,a man well seen for the society,following its rules and traditions doubtless.And more surely still,when entering the tent in SNIT this was the further step in his another and deepest "learning trip";the one of becoming himself and being accepted for himself too.Unluckily,this last was an endless trip...

[vedrana]

Yes,surely for Ennis marrying Alma was a further step in his "learning trip" to becoming a man;what's more,a man well seen for the society,following its rules and traditions doubtless.And more surely still,when entering the tent in SNIT this was the further step in his another and deepest "learning trip";the one of becoming himself and being accepted for himself too.Unluckily,this last was an endless trip...

I like this! 

This is just the way it was...

[tpe]

As we were discussing recently before losing many of the most recent posts, I think that we were debating whether or not Ennis was consicously or subsconsciously thinking about the ramifications if he enetered the tent -- in the context of society at large, but more so in the context of his own fears and prejudices...

I believe that MPJ pretty much agreed with this and that loreen had a different view...

[vedrana]

As we were discussing recently before losing many of the most recent posts, I think that we were debating whether or not Ennis was consicously or subsconsciously thinking about the ramifications if he enetered the tent -- in the context of society at large, but more so in the context of his own fears and prejudices...

I believe that MPJ pretty much agreed with this and that loreen had a different view...

Uh, that loreen - always have some different view!  ^^)

 
 
Well, yup! I thought that Ennis had the whole day after FNIT to think what happened between them and how "wrong" it is and how it's not socially acceptable. During the mountainside scene he stated that what they have is a one shot thing and that he wasn't a queer. In a way he agreed that they'll go on, and that it means nothing in the terms of his sexual preferences. IMO the most (if not all) of his social fears ended right there.

Also I believe that if he had any fears and prejudice before entering the tent, after entering he had none! The wish and his feelings for Jack were too strong in that moment.

Thanks tpe for reviving all these great threads which I was afraid to jump into. It is most difficult to start, later would be easier.

[myprivatejack]

As we were discussing recently before losing many of the most recent posts, I think that we were debating whether or not Ennis was consicously or subsconsciously thinking about the ramifications if he enetered the tent -- in the context of society at large, but more so in the context of his own fears and prejudices...

I believe that MPJ pretty much agreed with this and that loreen had a different view...

Yes,that's right,Thomas¡ I agreed more or less in that Ennis before SNIT was the man afraid of the society rules and the consequences of breaking them who thinks over it all day long;the same than in FNIT was the man who released himself from these rules and consequences,even if for a little moment.In both cases,he had struggled with himself and with what these rules meant in the environment he has been raised;for this reason,the fact of entering into the tent is a kind of break these rules because in this struggle his feelings won...
Ennis entering into the tent is like Ennis entering into a new world and accepting other rules;but I also remembered that you and me had agreed in that this struggle kept on existing even already into the tent.The way he backs down before Jack's kiss means that he wasn't still prepared in that moment for a greater level of intimacy,in a more romantic way,than the simple sexual intercourse.And that,although these doubts lasted during a little time,the rest of his life was a great doubt in itself...

[tpe]

Uh, that loreen - always have some different view!  ^^)

 
 
Well, yup! I thought that Ennis had the whole day after FNIT to think what happened between them and how "wrong" it is and how it's not socially acceptable. During the mountainside scene he stated that what they have is a one shot thing and that he wasn't a queer. In a way he agreed that they'll go on, and that it means nothing in the terms of his sexual preferences. IMO the most (if not all) of his social fears ended right there.

Also I believe that if he had any fears and prejudice before entering the tent, after entering he had none! The wish and his feelings for Jack were too strong in that moment.

Thanks tpe for reviving all these great threads which I was afraid to jump into. It is most difficult to start, later would be easier.

For me, of course, I think that the doubts and hesitations continued even after he entered the tent.  But the significance of entering the tent (to me) was that he put himself in Jack;s hands, in spite of those fears and doubts. 

[tpe]

Yes,that's right,Thomas¡ I agreed more or less in that Ennis before SNIT was the man afraid of the society rules and the consequences of breaking them who thinks over it all day long;the same than in FNIT was the man who released himself from these rules and consequences,even if for a little moment.In both cases,he had struggled with himself and with what these rules meant in the environment he has been raised;for this reason,the fact of entering into the tent is a kind of break these rules because in this struggle his feelings won...
Ennis entering into the tent is like Ennis entering into a new world and accepting other rules;but I also remembered that you and me had agreed in that this struggle kept on existing even already into the tent.The way he backs down before Jack's kiss means that he wasn't still prepared in that moment for a greater level of intimacy,in a more romantic way,than the simple sexual intercourse.And that,although these doubts lasted during a little time,the rest of his life was a great doubt in itself...

Yes, this is what I had said in the above post.    I believe that you can see the tension on Ennis's face and actions even as he put himself in Jack's arms.  IN fact, I think Jack sensed it, and that was the reason why he was very comforting and considerate to Ennis even after he entered the tent.

[vedrana]

For me, of course, I think that the doubts and hesitations continued even after he entered the tent.  But the significance of entering the tent (to me) was that he put himself in Jack;s hands, in spite of those fears and doubts. 

Lovely put! Coz Ennis was symbolically and literally in Jack's hands.

[atalley]

LOVE this scene!!!  I can see the pic in my "mind's eye".

[tpe]

It's certainly one of the most beautiful and revealing moments in the movie.

[vedrana]

Eniss also refused to enter the tent before FNIT at first, but in the dawn, he finally entered, coz it was too cold. Did he refuse ONLY because he was drunk and lazy to get up, or he sensed something about Jack and was a bit afraid/cautious. 

[tpe]

Eniss alsiorefused to enter the tent before FNIT at first, but in the dawn, he finally entered, coz it was too cold. Did he refuse ONLY because he was drunk and lazy to get up, or he sensed something about Jack and was a bit afraid/cautious. 

The difference of course is that in FNIT, he was "forced" by the cold.  IN SNIT, it was more deliberate.

[vedrana]

The difference of course is that in FNIT, he was "forced" by the cold.  IN SNIT, it was more deliberate.

I understand! My point was more about his refusal to enter before FNIT. Why he refused? Because he was lazy to lift up his bu**ock or, because he already sensed something about Jack and was afraid to enter the tent in a way!

[tpe]

I understand! My point was more about his refusal to enter before FNIT. Why he refused? Because he was lazy to lift up his bu**ock or, because he already sensed something about Jack and was afraid to enter the tent in a way!

I think he refused becuase he sort of knew that he was attracted to Jack, and wanted to make sure that nothing happened. 

[vedrana]

I think he refused becuase he sort of knew that he was attracted to Jack, and wanted to make sure that nothing happened. 

My thoughts exactly! And even he was drunk, he was aware that something was going on between them. He probably even didn't know what was it, but he felt endangered.   

[jesseanne21]

My thoughts exactly! And even he was drunk, he was aware that something was going on between them. He probably even didn't know what was it, but he felt endangered.   

I agree with you Loreen.  In the short story, it states, 'both slept in the tent that first night' [on BBM].  But after getting to know Jack, Ennis, even though he was totally drunk, would not go into that tent with Jack until he was nearly frozen.

[tpe]

I agree with you Loreen.  In the short story, it states, 'both slept in the tent that first night' [on BBM].  But after getting to know Jack, Ennis, even though he was totally drunk, would not go into that tent with Jack until he was nearly frozen.

Exactly.  By FNIT, Ennis knew that he was attractwed to Jack.  In FNIT, there was kind of gut-reaction that kicked in -- making him act cautiously...  As if he was not in total control of himself.

But SNIT was perhaps a step up.  At that point, Ennis knew that they had done things.  It was now a kind of caution that knew where things were headed.  And in this regard, Ennis knew that he had some degree of control/responsibility over what was to happen next.

[traveller]

 
He was afraid not of Jack but of himself. Good for him that he got frozen and "had" to enter?

[vedrana]

Exactly.  By FNIT, Ennis knew that he was attractwed to Jack.  In FNIT, there was kind of gut-reaction that kicked in -- making him act cautiously...  As if he was not in total control of himself.

But SNIT was perhaps a step up.  At that point, Ennis knew that they had done things.  It was now a kind of caution that knew where things were headed.  And in this regard, Ennis knew that he had some degree of control/responsibility over what was to happen next.

Maybe he didn't exactly "know", coz Ennis didn't know many things for real, he mostly sensed things. So the same was in FNIT where he sensed something between them and decide to stay away until completely frozen.

In FNIT Jack's invitation was pretty simple and plain, but he covered his intentions there. In SNIT, Jack invited him without words in the more subtle way, but the invitation was more than obvious. And Ennis accepted also in more subtle way, but in his case also, things were pretty much obvious. He entered  by his own will, accepting the invitation of Jack's naked torso and showing how much he really wanted Jack. So much so that all the other hold backs were forgotten in that moment of desire.

[vedrana]

He was afraid not of Jack but of himself. Good for him that he got frozen and "had" to enter?

Maybe not of himself, but of the growing feeling inside of him, which he couldn't explain nor completely accepted.

[myprivatejack]

Maybe not of himself, but of the growing feeling inside of him, which he couldn't explain nor completely accepted.

I think he was afraid of everything;of himself,for the point he was able to arrive in some feelings he clearly rejected,on the other side.Of the growing feelings inside of him,because he knew that he couldn't control them the way he had had all his life controlled up to that moment.And even of Jack,because he was the way to discover and grow these feelings up.

[vedrana]

I think he was afraid of everything;of himself,for the point he was able to arrive in some feelings he clearly rejected,on the other side.Of the growing feelings inside of him,because he knew that he couldn't control them the way he had had all his life controlled up to that moment.And even of Jack,because he was the way to discover and grow these feelings up.

I am prone to accept your explanation. It makes sense. Ennis was frightened by everything, and the funny thing was that he was aware of it, even so drunk that he couldn't stand up! That shows how this feeling existed inside of him for a while, and that he was adjusting his behavior according to it.

Once he was "concurred" by his own desire, he just give in, and that was the moment of entering the tent in SNIT:

[holyfool]

                       - the poor guy realized that he just wanted more and the some,  that is all.

[tpe]

He was afraid not of Jack but of himself. Good for him that he got frozen and "had" to enter?

Yes.  And I think what you say here applies to both FNIT and SNIT.

[tpe]

Maybe he didn't exactly "know", coz Ennis didn't know many things for real, he mostly sensed things. So the same was in FNIT where he sensed something between them and decide to stay away until completely frozen.

In FNIT Jack's invitation was pretty simple and plain, but he covered his intentions there. In SNIT, Jack invited him without words in the more subtle way, but the invitation was more than obvious. And Ennis accepted also in more subtle way, but in his case also, things were pretty much obvious. He entered  by his own will, accepting the invitation of Jack's naked torso and showing how much he really wanted Jack. So much so that all the other hold backs were forgotten in that moment of desire.

I would tend to think that by SNIT, he knew that he was attracted to Jack, but didn't articulate it in terms of a definite plan of action.  And I do think that "sensing" is the same as "knowing", or being aware of it.

In SNIT, the person who made the choice was really Ennis -- by the simple act of entering the tent.  But beyond thisd act, jack had to help Ennis out, if you know what I mean.  Ennis still had a lot of inhibitions...

[tpe]

                       - the poor guy realized that he just wanted more and the some,  that is all.

He's like the proverbial bear falling into the tub of honey. 

[holyfool]

      tpe, - you are right!, delmar had a taste ( yum!, yum!)  and he wanted more of the honey cone.

[vedrana]

I would tend to think that by SNIT, he knew that he was attracted to Jack, but didn't articulate it in terms of a definite plan of action.  And I do think that "sensing" is the same as "knowing", or being aware of it.

In SNIT, the person who made the choice was really Ennis -- by the simple act of entering the tent.  But beyond thisd act, jack had to help Ennis out, if you know what I mean.  Ennis still had a lot of inhibitions...

When it comes to Ennis, I can't really say how much he really knew. I think that "sensing" and "knowing" is not the same ... that is- if my dictionary is accurate enough. I think that we can have some feeling about someone or something, but not to be exactly sure, not to have the clear picture about it. Only an innuendo in our heart and soul. To know something, we have to perceive all the facts and put them in the whole picture... well as long as it's possible when it comes to feelings.

[tpe]

      tpe, - you are right!, delmar had a taste ( yum!, yum!)  and he wanted more of the honey cone.

I love how you say "yum!, yum!".