Topic: was ennis gay ?

[jackster]

Hello Jackster.  For the record, I believe Ennis was gay.  You can't be gay and not be homosexual, IMO.

Thanks for the clarification Thomas. Can't say I agree about Ennis (I think maybe we discussed this once before) don't see him as even a little bit "gay" myself, but that's me. Curious what would be some feminine sensibilities that you feel Ennis exhibits in the gay scale? For the record I see Ennis as homosexual, in that he was attracted to and liked sex with Jack who was male. Seems to pretty much end there for me.

[tpe]

Thanks for the clarification Thomas. Can't say I agree about Ennis (I think maybe we discussed this once before) don't see him as even a little bit "gay" myself, but that's me. Curious what would be some feminine sensibilities that you feel Ennis exhibits in the gay scale? For the record I see Ennis as homosexual, in that he was attracted to and liked sex with Jack who was male. Seems to pretty much end there for me.

That's fine, Jackster.  I think a lot of straight people connected with Ennis because other than his love for Jack, he doesn't seem "gay" at all -- at least not the stereotype most people think.  This what makes him and Jack bridge the divide, I think.  And BBM is so full of this -- things so hard to classify.  Perhaps because that's how it is in real life.

 

[ksxks]

It has always been a point of discussion as to whether Ennis was attracted to any other man than Jack.  Given his repressed nature, we shall never know.  AS far as we can tell, it may have only been Jack.

I should mention that Annie Proulx herself had said that one of the starting points for her story was to see in real life an elderly ranch hand/cowboy look longingly at a group of young cowboys.  Her implication is that this was the image of the elder Ennis.  So at least to Proulx, Ennis was probably attracted to other men.

Unless he was just looking at the young men and dreaming of his youth with his "Jack," or the lack thereof.

I am still enjoying everything this thread brings up.  It's not some scientific question about the story and the movie that can be answered logically, since we each bring a different perspective to it.  And also, I like what you said, Thomas -- the question is as important or more important than the answer; and it is yet another way we learn about how we come together here on this forum.

I read with interest all your ideas, Tony.  Since the question will never be answered, just keep on talking about it.

kathy

[manhattangirl]

I only know one thing, in that first summer, Jack found a way to Ennis, that Alma apparently couldn't.   Ennis's life may looked conventional, but it really wasn't.  He lived it for one thing to be with Jack.  It wasn't that he was a failure, or felt like he was nothing, Oh, it came up in the final confrontation, but  his life was dedicated to one person.  Jack, overshadowing everything else in life, that's why the breakdown, Jack just didn't get it, and Ennis realized that Jack was his life.  Can anyone love another in just this way, and wonder who are?  Did Ennis ever questioned it?

[tpe]

Unless he was just looking at the young men and dreaming of his youth with his "Jack," or the lack thereof.

I am still enjoying everything this thread brings up.  It's not some scientific question about the story and the movie that can be answered logically, since we each bring a different perspective to it.  And also, I like what you said, Thomas -- the question is as important or more important than the answer; and it is yet another way we learn about how we come together here on this forum.

I read with interest all your ideas, Tony.  Since the question will never be answered, just keep on talking about it.

kathy

Thanks Kathy.  And it is true -- the young men may have simply reminded him of his younger self and Jack. 

[tpe]

I only know one thing, in that first summer, Jack found a way to Ennis, that Alma apparently couldn't.   Ennis's life may looked conventional, but it really wasn't.  He lived it for one thing to be with Jack.  It wasn't that he was a failure, or felt like he was nothing, Oh, it came up in the final confrontation, but  his life was dedicated to one person.  Jack, overshadowing everything else in life, that's why the breakdown, Jack just didn't get it, and Ennis realized that Jack was his life.  Can anyone love another in just this way, and wonder who are?  Did Ennis ever questioned it?

So much lay hidden underneath.

As to your last question, I suspect that Ennis must have compartmentalized the different aspects of his life, especially Jack.  But it is hard to think that deep inside, he didn't sometimes question who he was, and what his feelings for Jack must have somehow made him ask why it was so, even if it was only specific to Jack.

[Asali]

I only know one thing, in that first summer, Jack found a way to Ennis, that Alma apparently couldn't.   Ennis's life may looked conventional, but it really wasn't.  He lived it for one thing to be with Jack.  It wasn't that he was a failure, or felt like he was nothing, Oh, it came up in the final confrontation, but  his life was dedicated to one person.  Jack, overshadowing everything else in life, that's why the breakdown, Jack just didn't get it, and Ennis realized that Jack was his life.  Can anyone love another in just this way, and wonder who are?  Did Ennis ever questioned it?

Without a doubt Ennis would have questioned who he was and what was going on within himself, you could not have these feelings and not question yourself, as much he may have not wanted to admit anything to himself about his feelings and who he was, he would have realised how real these feelings were and that they were not going to disappear.

[lamusica]

Again, I think Ennis's great awakening was when he broke down in the shed after saying good-bye to Jack.  That's when he first realized he wasn't going to be able to just walk away and forget Jack.  He believed there was nothing he could do to change things.  Certainly, he wasn't willing to go off somewhere with Jack, but he knew in his guts that Jack would be in his mind forever.  That's why he was so upset.  He finally had an epiphany -- that he LOVED Jack -- and saw no way to follow-up on that love.  After all, he was engaged to Alma.
    I look at that scene as being the beginning of Ennis's emotional distress, almost depression.  He went through all the motions of living a life with Alma and the girls, but he was only partly there.  His heart was with Jack and he was gone!  When he showed up four years later, Ennis had a temporary sense of completeness.
    Yes, I think Ennis would have thought about all of this and wondered who and what his feelings for Jack really meant, but his sense of duty and responsibility kept him where he was in spite of his feelings.

[Asali]

Absolutely agree with your whole post lamusica.

[aintfoolin]

 I agree with lamusica's post too as well as MG's above. Does any one feel that Ennis may have had these tendencies alot earlier than he realized? Back in the days of Earl and Rich? Maybe this is why their tradgedy affected Ennis so deeply? Perhaps even then, he knew he was "different" in some way? He isolated himself from society as a way of coping with who he felt he was deep inside. That sense of not really belonging anywhere, but just going thru the motions of life doing what was expected of him.  Yes, he fell in love with Jack, but he had to be somewhat open to Jack's approach. If he was totally straight, could he do this? Say for instance , it was'nt Jack , but some one who processed Jack's attributes, some other guy OTHER than Jack in the same set of circumstances as his BBM experience? Could Ennis have still fell in love with him or was Jack just that perfect one for him? I don't know but .... Just curious.

[lamusica]

Personally, I don't think Ennis had any tendencies toward homosexuality when he was a child, but I DO think that his father taught him something when he took him to see the battered body of one of the two men who were "ranched up together".  Most children 10 years old or younger, in those days, were not aware that two men or two women could or would love each other physically.  These things were not talked about, and certainly weren't shown on tv or in movies in the 60's.  Most people didn't know what homosexuality was until they were in their teens, or at least that's when my schoolmates and I first became aware of the existence of same-sex love.  So, Ennis's father, by showing him the body, opened his mind to the possibility of two men being life-partners.
       In that sense, Ennis was at least, perhaps, more aware of the facts of life.  Not only did he know what homosexuality was, but that it was something to be shunned, and, as his father did, hated and eradicated.
      When he awoke to find Jack's hand on his c--k, after the initial surprise and fuzzy-headedness of being drunk and newly awakened, he didn't hesitate to give Jack what he was asking for.  Maybe he complied partly because of curiosity that was embedded by his father.  Just MHO.

[jackster]

Personally, I don't think Ennis had any tendencies toward homosexuality when he was a child, but I DO think that his father taught him something when he took him to see the battered body of one of the two men who were "ranched up together". 

I'm very much with you here lamusica, months ago I started a thread called Earl, Rich & the Garden of Eden where I tried to make this point, I started it by saying this . . .
Young Ennis was shown this brutal murder scene and was seemingly exposed to the nature of their relationship even before this ugly scene. “Dad would pass a remark when he seen them” he recalled 15 years later when revealing this scene to Jack (in the SS). So, he learned at a young age about men living together with men, whether good or bad, but he was made aware of it as a phenomena. Do you think that this early knowledge and understanding (as negative as it was) of men living together was critical to his later concept of this as even a possibility?

Like Adam in the Garden, Ennis was shown something, but then forewarned not to touch it. It can make it very tempting. If Ennis had not been shown this “lifestyle” do think he would have been more or less receptive to Jack FNIT? Would he have rebuffed Jacks’ first advance, or more importantly, not sought any type of emotional relationship with Jack as he initiated SNIT?

Ennis certainly was AC/DC but seemed to get more satisfaction (in several ways) from his relationship with Jack than with Alma or Cassie. But many men with similar feelings would’ve punched out Jack’s lights if he’d made a similar move FNIT. Ennis, after thinking it over came to a different conclusion SNIT. Why?

I think your absolutely right, Ennis's father planted the seeds, or at least watered them, by making such a big deal about E & R and this male relationship. It allowed Ennis to realize his feelings in way that he may never had achieved without this gruesome introduction, of course it also tied his inner self into an incredibly tight knot. A knot that only Jack Twist could then undo.

[Tony]

     Jackster, came across that thread of yours, some time back, and it was rich with possibilities, and many fulfilled.  Got me to thinking,
though, about the apparent lack of real love in Ennis' childhood.  His father was a creep, and sounds like he was disposable, by his brothers
and, I believe, sister.
    So then, the only exposure he had to real, overwhelming love was that shown and risked by Earl and Rich.  The sexuality, at his age, would not
have been completely understood.  So, am willing to risk saying this--Earl and Rich enabled Ennis' ability to love Jack emotionally, and tormented
him, as to the consequences sexually.  Enabled, and blocked.  It was a great thread, Jackster.

[jackster]

   . . . So then, the only exposure he had to real, overwhelming love was that shown and risked by Earl and Rich.  The sexuality, at his age, would not
have been completely understood.  So, am willing to risk saying this--Earl and Rich enabled Ennis' ability to love Jack emotionally, and tormented
him, as to the consequences sexually.  Enabled, and blocked.  . . .

I agree and of course you're right here, one of Ennis's earliest memories is of someone who died because of his love, no wonder he was as you say tormented. Don't know about his lack of childhood love however, remember in the Dozy Embrace he hums and recalls a saying by his mama as he embraces Jack. He must have some good memories to make that association during that expression of real love don'tcha think? As far as bro & sis go, they possibly had to fight to keep him from being taken to a foster home so there was maybe some love there too I feel. It woulda' been a tough time anyway you slice it. Maybe what his childhood lacked was continuity, stability, predictability. Maybe part of what made him so reluctant to commit with JT.

And, thanks for your praise Tony.

[lamusica]

Sorry I missed your initial thread, jackster, but you made the point well.  Again, I think our common age more or less helps us see things similarly; we both remember the 60's well, and their restrictions and victorian morals, just beginning to unravel on the cusp of the sexual revolution.  As you and Tony have said above, Earl and Rich did speak to Ennis -- awaken within the idea that two men could love one another to the point of dying to preserve their lifestyle.  I hadn't thought of that angle before this discussion.  Thanks to both of you.
        Also, like how you put it, Tony -- "Enabled and blocked"!  Wow!  That says it all.

[aintfoolin]

I agree and of course you're right here, one of Ennis's earliest memories is of someone who died because of his love, no wonder he was as you say tormented. Don't know about his lack of childhood love however, remember in the Dozy Embrace he hums and recalls a saying by his mama as he embraces Jack. He must have some good memories to make that association during that expression of real love don'tcha think? As far as bro & sis go, they possibly had to fight to keep him from being taken to a foster home so there was maybe some love there too I feel. It woulda' been a tough time anyway you slice it. Maybe what his childhood lacked was continuity, stability, predictability. Maybe part of what made him so reluctant to commit with JT.

And, thanks for your praise Tony.

Jackster's earlier thread is a great one, delving into the complex question of what or who was it that shaped and formed Ennis into who he was and/or who he thought he was. Very insightful.

The instability and unpredictability as Jackster said imo was indeed a big part of his  emotional growth. IMO both Tony's and Jackster's posts were wonderfully stated along with lamusica's input ., and  they raise even more questions. Earl and Rich did allow Ennis to form a possibility that two men can fall in love and  even go beyond the traditional thinking of the time and actually ranch up together. Ennis remembered them many years later , recalling vividly to Jack, their story. But now he is being called out by Jack, He has been chosen by Jack to love and with all his conflicts, he is choosing, somewhat to love back. In the film, we are shown pieces of his sexuality. On the one hand Ennis thinks of himself as straight, yet he has tendencies that point in a different direction. He also understands by way of Earl and Rich, what Jack is asking. What Jack wants and what that means.  He also knows how Earl and Rich were percieved in their community and in society as a whole. Earl lost his  life violently  in this attempt to defy society. This is the fate, according to his father that awaits men who happen to be gay. IMO, it is the ingrained fear of this that haunted Ennis's ability to show openly his love for Jack.

Was he gay? I don't know, but personally I feel that sexuality is multi-faceted. I don't feel it is a gay/staight  issue as sexuality has many branches attached. Some people fanatize about different forms , only in their mind , while labeling themselves either gay or straight, and some actually freely act upon them, exploring the many facets of sexuality. If one engages in homosexual acts, does that make them homosexual? ( The "whatever floats your boat sydrome") though this may or not be a true test of one's "true" orientation. For example Jack, who seemed to embrace his , engaged in sex with Lureen and fatherd a child, but he only sought out men during his " indiscreet moments"  when Ennis was'nt available. I feel he was searching for something that goes alot deeper, whatever it was, Ennis corvered that for him. Again, no one else was really gonna do.

 Ennis was doing both too, while identifying as a straight male. He fell in LOVE, which makes the difference imo. This went beyond just sexual acts. Jack became a necessity in Ennis's life, a part of Ennis. Did'nt feel complete without him.  He no doubt questioned his sexual ID, especially the scene where he's sitting on the log before SNIT.


  Concerning many people, not all,  catergorizing /lableing is almost a fine line when it comes to one's  sexuality. And what about bi-sexuality?, breifuly explored in earlier posts on the thread?  I don't feel one can really label Ennis, which goes to the complex nature of him just as in all individual humans, but Jack was definitly the key to unlocking him, in many ways.  Thought he said "I aint queer". By now all of us has an opinion on why he said it, as well as why Jack answered "me niether" .

I don't feel Ennis had a problem loving Jack when he is honest with himself, maybe even "outed" himself at certain points, he knew he loved him imo, but there was a fear of loving Jack, from deeply imbeded lessons that served as a warning in his mind. This, Jack could not change this imo , He could only can do so much to "prepare" Ennis,  offer him unconditional love, and  which at some point , Ennis himself is required  to DO something permanent about. It would require him to admit certain truths to himself. Jack's introduction of love to Ennis , brought home to him further, by his own daughter, and Cassie's "falling in love with fun"  presented him with a knowledge of those truths about himself and his love for Jack Twist. Fun? yes Jack was fun, but Jack's love was serious business as he found out.

I often wonder post-Jack, could Ennis ever love again? If he could, would it be man? or woman? or niether? Which  one would he gravitate toward  if givin the choice?, taking in the life's lessons  about loving  himself Jack taught him. This would be a true test of his "orientation" and very telling of Ennis if he hooked up with another man, post-Jack of course.
 Please excuse my long-winded passion and moments, but it's just ...My 5 cents. Thanks.

[Tony]

   Wow.  Aintfoolin--that was great.  Am very surprised that, after being dormant so long, the whole topic is producing so very much.  Maybe
people had time to think and develop new ideas.  Dunno, but this thread is rockin'....

[jackster]

Ditto Tony, GREAT post Ain'tfoolin.

I am continually amazed at how this short story and unpretentious film can ignite such intelligent and thought provoking discussions about that most basic, yet complex of human emotions, LOVE.

What was Ennis thinking while sitting on that log?
Am I queer?
Do I love Jack?
Does he hate me?
Does he love me?
What do I do?
What am I feeling?

How many gay men (and women) have struggled with these same questions and answers.

[Asali]

Was he gay? I don't know, but personally I feel that sexuality is multi-faceted. I don't feel it is a gay/staight  issue as sexuality has many branches attached.

 Ennis was doing both too, while identifying as a straight male. He fell in LOVE, which makes the difference imo. This went beyond just sexual acts. Jack became a necessity in Ennis's life, a part of Ennis. Did'nt feel complete without him.  He no doubt questioned his sexual ID, especially the scene where he's sitting on the log before SNIT.

I often wonder post-Jack, could Ennis ever love again? If he could, would it be man? or woman? or niether? Which  one would he gravitate toward  if givin the choice?, taking in the life's lessons  about loving  himself Jack taught him. This would be a true test of his "orientation" and very telling of Ennis if he hooked up with another man, post-Jack of course.
 

Brilliant post aintfoolin, I chose a couple of pieces from that. Absolutely agree about sexuality as being multi-faceted, so many branches for sure imo. It really would be interesting if Ennis was to fall in love again wether it would be male, female or just be lonely forever.

Ditto Tony, GREAT post Ain'tfoolin.

I am continually amazed at how this short story and unpretentious film can ignite such intelligent and thought provoking discussions about that most basic, yet complex of human emotions, LOVE.

What was Ennis thinking while sitting on that log? Am I queer?
Do I love Jack?
Does he hate me?
Does he love me?
What do I do?
What am I feeling?

How many gay men (and women) have struggled with these same questions and answers.

Many as well as 'straight' men and women or rather those that identified as being 'straight'.
Love the list, I believe all that would have been messing about in his mind, also 'WHY am I feeling this'.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks Tony and Jackster.

 So many have connected with this film. It has such personal appeal and has an important message. Many of us have been there or see their own lives touched by it and/or because of it. I may appear dormant Tony, but I am a major lurker at times. When I'm not posting as much , I'm lurking for sure.


Jackster,
 Ennis had at least a day to wrestle with the questions you listed ,while still up with the sheep. Then by the time he got down to camp he was still wieghing it all out as he on the log. Perhaps he had come to some terms  with himself over  how he felt about FNIT and was trying to get up the courage to show Jack he wanted more. He kept looking over at the opening of the tent where Jack clearly seen changing or something, but no doubt asking these very questions.

 I'd pay good money to know what he was thinking. We were'nt privy thru the film version as to what transpired, immediatly after he returned to camp, but when he finally "bellies up to the bar" it is one of the most romantic scenes ever produced.

 He knew a line was being crossed that night when he went in but he did go in. And lordy, what did he find when he got there? a half-naked Jack , surprised, but ready, willing and able to answer all his curiosities  without judgement. What's a poor guy like Ennis to do, pray tell? Bottom line ? He liked it. Alot. It felt right the first time and indeed better the second. Gay or not, he liked being with Jack In more ways than one I'm sure.  

[jackster]

. . . It really would be interesting if Ennis was to fall in love again wether it would be male, female or just be lonely forever.

This may sound really odd, but I can see Ennis truly loving his horse, brushing it, washing it, riding it, talking to it (little darlin'). Almost a surrogate for the departed Jack. Animals are so nonjudgmental I feel Ennis could really connect here and feel a real love.

Many as well as 'straight' men and women or rather those that identified as being 'straight'. . . .

Didn't mean to leave those folks out for sure, it is universal. For homosexuals this inner stirring and these questions about love also bring with them a tide of gut wrenching identity issues, i.e. Who am I? Is this really me? Why?

[Marge Innavera]

Personally, I don't think Ennis had any tendencies toward homosexuality when he was a child, but I DO think that his father taught him something when he took him to see the battered body of one of the two men who were "ranched up together".  Most children 10 years old or younger, in those days, were not aware that two men or two women could or would love each other physically.  These things were not talked about, and certainly weren't shown on tv or in movies in the 60's.  Most people didn't know what homosexuality was until they were in their teens, or at least that's when my schoolmates and I first became aware of the existence of same-sex love.  So, Ennis's father, by showing him the body, opened his mind to the possibility of two men being life-partners.

My view of that is that if he had no homosexual tendencies, it would have remained just that -- an understanding of a possibility.

I was a child in an era (1950s) when even heterosexual married couples slept in separate twin beds -- at least, that was the impression you got on TV in that era. But all the same, I showed -- and felt -- signs of being heterosexual when I was about five and got a crush on Tommy Reddig, the male lead in the original Lassie series. Tommy was deposed shortly after that when I got a crush on Elvis, and that was followed by a crush on the minister's son down the street, followed by a classroom sweetheart named George.... you get the picture. 

This was all at a time when I didn't even know where babies came from, and for several years after that I had the notion that conception was something that took place in the spirit world. But as young as five, I knew that there was something about boys that was interesting to me in a way that girls just weren't. I don't have any problem believing that a kid who's gay would have that same kind of pre-sexual awakening; IMO, the presence of Earl and Rich in the same community might have gotten a few wheels turning on the subconscious level.

[aintfoolin]

  I agree totally with you Marge,  I have shown my ignorance and asked gay friends , just out of curiosity, when they knew. Most of them answer when they were children. Even as far back as grade school. I myself had sexual fantasys as a  young child in the early 60's When "Leave it to Beaver" was a standard!! We may be shelterd as children from the different forms of sexuality by our parents and society, but it's personal."Age appropriate" discussions are often late comers, some of us already know it feels good by then , just thinking about some one we're attracted to. No instruction manuals needed.

 We may not even understand or be able to talk about it or clearly define it yet as children,  but I feel that basic knowledge of sexuality is indeed formed at a young age. When ya know, ya know. Therefore, I feel it's possible that Ennis knew of his "tendencies" early on, though he could never speak of it or explain them, I feel it at least interested him.

 Earl and Rich may have only confirmed possibilities for him, that what he suspected about himself was not out of the realm of possibility. Maybe he recognized a familiarity there, and equated his feelings with theirs, as much as he understood at the time.

 When he met Jack he knew by then that his feelings were not so farfetched. Brokeback simply provided him the right place, the right time, with the right person to explore this part of himself. Just a thought.

[Asali]

This may sound really odd, but I can see Ennis truly loving his horse, brushing it, washing it, riding it, talking to it (little darlin'). Almost a surrogate for the departed Jack. Animals are so nonjudgmental I feel Ennis could really connect here and feel a real love.

Oh yeah I am sure Ennis could connect with 'love' regardless.

Didn't mean to leave those folks out for sure, it is universal. For homosexuals this inner stirring and these questions about love also bring with them a tide of gut wrenching identity issues, i.e. Who am I? Is this really me? Why?

Yes its universal but I what I meant about the 'straight' questioning is ones such as Ennis who find themselves having to question their identity when they realise without warning or later than others that they have these feelings and this is where I think the many branches of sexuality fit in.

[lamusica]

My view of that is that if he had no homosexual tendencies, it would have remained just that -- an understanding of a possibility.

I was a child in an era (1950s) when even heterosexual married couples slept in separate twin beds -- at least, that was the impression you got on TV in that era. But all the same, I showed -- and felt -- signs of being heterosexual when I was about five and got a crush on Tommy Reddig, the male lead in the original Lassie series. Tommy was deposed shortly after that when I got a crush on Elvis, and that was followed by a crush on the minister's son down the street, followed by a classroom sweetheart named George.... you get the picture. 

This was all at a time when I didn't even know where babies came from, and for several years after that I had the notion that conception was something that took place in the spirit world. But as young as five, I knew that there was something about boys that was interesting to me in a way that girls just weren't. I don't have any problem believing that a kid who's gay would have that same kind of pre-sexual awakening; IMO, the presence of Earl and Rich in the same community might have gotten a few wheels turning on the subconscious level.

Hi, Marge, and welcome to the forum!
I think we're saying about the same thing.  We're definitely from the same era.  While I think you are saying Ennis may have had homosexual leanings as a child, I'm not denying that as a possibility at all.  It's just that I think, IF HE DIDN'T, seeing what became of Earl and Rich may have opened his mind to the possibility of man/man love.  I don't think the short story nor the film give us any real information on which was the case.  We just have to come up with the possibilities and settle for that in the face of no proof.

[myprivatejack]

Hi, Marge, and welcome to the forum!
I think we're saying about the same thing.  We're definitely from the same era.  While I think you are saying Ennis may have had homosexual leanings as a child, I'm not denying that as a possibility at all.  It's just that I think, IF HE DIDN'T, seeing what became of Earl and Rich may have opened his mind to the possibility of man/man love.  I don't think the short story nor the film give us any real information on which was the case.  We just have to come up with the possibilities and settle for that in the face of no proof.

I´m definitively against lebels in moral,sexual or emotional issues.But if we have to define Ennis as "gay", it´s more than possible that seeing Earl and Rich living together awakes his curiosity about other ways of living sexuality and affection.He wouldn´t know how to define "this thing",but surely he knew it was different and equal at the same time from what he had seen at home-two persons bound for love ties,like his parents,but with the particularity of being two men-.We´ve seen a lot of times before how what is forbidden provokes a desire to know more about this,to know why it´s not as logical and well-seen as the way of living we see at home,why we can´t do this or that...Surely Earl´s death was the beginning of the fears and homophobia that Ennis suffered all his life,but at the same time made him ask to himself what have been the reasons for such a punishment and,more or less consciously,made him feel an  attraction to this so forbidden behaviour.Probably,however,if BBM had not existed Ennis had ben living his "normal" life in a semi-slept state in this sense;but finding Jack,a person who gave him the affection and care he needed and didn´t have when child -beyond pure sexual attraction-made him awake from this sleep.The rest is story...

[lamusica]

Great post, Marge.  I guess we always have to take the bad with the good.  It was a good thing that Ennis was awakened to varying kinds of love, but a bad thing that it instilled such fear within him.  Again, a conundrum, like much of life.  Seeing Earl certainly affected Ennis throughout his life in his choices and his actions.  We never know how much we do affects chidlren, but this is a good example.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis spoke of Earl and Rich with a respect he must secretly harbored for them.  He understood what he and Jack had.   It was no suprise, he knew every time lay down with Jack what he was doing, who he was.   

He just didn't want to be another "Joke of the Town". 

[tpe]

Hi, Marge, and welcome to the forum!
I think we're saying about the same thing.  We're definitely from the same era.  While I think you are saying Ennis may have had homosexual leanings as a child, I'm not denying that as a possibility at all.  It's just that I think, IF HE DIDN'T, seeing what became of Earl and Rich may have opened his mind to the possibility of man/man love.  I don't think the short story nor the film give us any real information on which was the case.  We just have to come up with the possibilities and settle for that in the face of no proof.

Your comment about his possible reaction to what became of Earl and Rich intrigues me.  I also considered the possibility that this opened his mind, and if he had some subconscious affinity for this type of love, then it probably resulted in a very complex mixture of feelings upon seeing the fate of Earl.   Perhaps the trauma had more to do with the sudden realization about something within himself that suddenly came to the fore...

[tpe]

Ennis spoke of Earl and Rich with a respect he must secretly harbored for them.  He understood what he and Jack had.   It was no suprise, he knew every time lay down with Jack what he was doing, who he was.   

He just didn't want to be another "Joke of the Town". 

I do think that even as early as the FNIT, Ennis understood how he felt for Jack.  As to Earl and Rich, it was perhaps a mixture of respect and fear of what became of them -- a cautionary tale of sorts.  His respect was tempered by the knowledge that the love they shared relatively openly was not respected by society at large.