Great idea- odds and ends that don't need a whole thread!!! How about the confrontation scene, their last time together----
looks like they spliced two takes together, to make the full argument. And Alma. jr. having silver hair as a child. And what WAS
Ennis address, that he was pasting on the mailbox of his trailer at the end (can't see my DVD again just right now), and why all the
flies in other scenes- no bug spray? Great idea---the knick-knacks we all can't forget, but don't know where to put.
The fly on ennis.s right cheek when he is standing face to face with jack in the confrontation scene.
After the FNIT in the morning jack comes out of the tent that is the only time throughout the whole film that jack HAS NOT got his shirt tucked in his jeans. hmm
Yes, I remember some discussion about thees two!
I also remember talking about the speck on Ennis's cheek -- the speck that "fell" to his shirt collar when he threatened Jack and pushed him in that scene. We were debating whether it was a fly or a speck of dust. I do think it was a fly.
LF, there are one or two old threads here that deal with all the little details about the film. Do take a look at those. I'll post the links here later, for easier reference.
I was fascinated by their creative refridgerating after shooting the elk. The steaks were displayed on the old makeshift rack. I guess it was cold enough up there for this to work, but for how long?
I got kind of nervous when Jack is leading the sheep along that REALLY high jagged cliff . I thought a sheep would walk right off into the ravine below.!!
And lastly, How much salt DID Ennis put on that steak he was cooking for Jack?!!! Jeez.
Hanging the meat out as they did after shooting the elk is the Native American way. It does not have to be cold. It can be smoked if you want. It just needs to be sliced rather thin, so it will dry quickly. The meat will dry ( cure) and then can be kept stored for quite awhile. Nowadays, with our hypersensitivity to germs and spoilage, I doubt many people still cure their meat in this fashion, but it was the way of the Indians and served them well.
Another thing i noticed at the reunion scene how dirty jacks nails were and he wasnt doing a dirty job was he ?
And how clean ennis,s nails were and he was working on a ranch so you would expect his to be dirty.
Ennis really spruced up for the occasion. The only other time he was all decked out was his wedding. Jack may have looked a little scruffy, after all he "Redlined all the way, couldn't get here fast enough."
Jerky's OK as long as you have a strong set of teeth!
I couldn;t work out what was beoing cooked in the frying pan at some points - potatoes once certainly and of course there were the beans in the cans but what else did they have?
Another thing i noticed at the reunion scene how dirty jacks nails were and he wasnt doing a dirty job was he ?
And how clean ennis,s nails were and he was working on a ranch so you would expect his to be dirty.
When ennis got divorced it was 1975 and he had to pay one hundred and twenty five dollars each child that seems rather a lot for all those years ago doesnt it . I am not sure though as i dont live in the U.S perhaps its not to much i dont know?
I believe it's decided according to income. That's only $250 dollars a month. If Ennis works a month doing ranch work in 1975, this is not unreasonable. These things are worked out between the two parties and their lawyers.alot of times.
Some of these ranches paid once a month at the time , is my understanding. So maybe he was getting paid in lump sum . It was the court order to pay $125 dollars per child, but in terms of years he could pay a great deal of money, as the girls were still young. Ennis seems a very private individual who takes such matters personally was in tears at the impersonal way the whole thing was handled concerning his loss, but I think he knew it was for the best. He was in love with Jack.
Ennis could have challenged this amount in court I think,, after Alma married Monroe, but I cannot see Ennis doing this. He loved and felt responsible for his girls.
It just seemed rather a lot for 32 years ago yea i know they go by what you earn your are right ennis wouldnt shirk his responsibilitys he thought to much of his daughters. I didnt know if ranch money was well paid or not.
Ennis’s Ear
Did ya’ ever notice how, in the motel scene close-up of Jack with Ennis’s head lying on his shoulder and we’re in so close all we see is Jack's face and the side of Ennis’s head, his ear and hair. A really “tight” shot. When Jack first lies “. . . I didn’t know we was gonna get into this again . . . “ then fesses up about redlining it to see Ennis and jokes: “Couldn’t get here fast enough” – Ennis’s ear makes a little move, just like ears do when someone smiles. You can imagine Ennis smiling at Jack’s simple confession of his passion and eagerness to see Ennis in this “post coital” exchange. One of those very little things that showed how into it Heath was with the scene, and how confident Ang was that just an ear could say more than words.
Ennis could have challenged this amount in court I think,, after Alma married Monroe, but I cannot see Ennis doing this. He loved and felt responsible for his girls.
Hello everyone. For your enjoyment, check out the threads under the section "All the Little Things" in
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1504.msg21865#msg21865
:)
Thank you tpe i have looked through that list before but so many to look at. :t)
You're most welcome, LF.
OT: More is better than less. :) Many things mentioned here are new to me...
I know how much you love jack/jake.
Did you notice in the confrontation scene when ennis went up to jack and pushed him jacks second to top shirt button was done up when the camera pulled away it was undone then when the camera went back to jack it was done up again .that just goes to prove who my eyes are on all the time. ::)
Truthfully, I have not noticed this. :) LF, perhaps one day, I can get to let you see this very shirt.
Did anyone catch the way Jenny checked Jack out in the divorce scene? I think she was smitten!
Did anyone catch the way Jenny checked Jack out in the divorce scene? I think she was smitten! Alma Jr. just seemed very curious, but I feel Jenny had *other thoughts*. ;) :)Hmmm. Jack signaled his arrival by beeping his horn, they had to turn to see who it was and see the *almost kiss* Jack was gonna plant on Ennis.
Jack's jewelry in the reunion scene. Was Alma aware that Jack had money?I continue to be fascinated with the Jack/Alma dynamic. Ennis made it seem that Jack was just a fishin buddy who liked to get drunk and get wild, when she met Jack, her perception of him must have been a surprise. He was totally gorgeous which I feel contributed to her being so stunned. Probably pictured him quite differently.
Alma asks for smokes, but I never saw her take a drag off any cigarettes. btw, did anyone notice her slip showing in this scene? Great detail. Just a few thoughts and observations.
That would be great as long as i could wear it for five minutes? ;)
OT: others have, so why not? :)
In the confrontation scene that word QUIT was said 3 times
'Course don't forget the critical first use of the word . . . . remember?
"Quit your hammerin' and get over here!!"
:) :) :)
In the confrontation scene that word QUIT was said 3 times
when ennis said i just used to quit the job
when ennis said i cant quit this one and i cant get the time off either
And the final one from jack i wish i knew how to quit you. :\'(
I don't think it is stretching it to say that QUIT, or rather, DON'T QUIT is a subtheme of the whole story. They could have quit after the time on BBM. They could have quit before or right after the reunion. They could have quit when both got married. Over the next twenty years, they could have quit at any time ----- but they didn't. Thus the subtitle: Love is a Force of Nature. Nothing can stand in the face of a natural disaster -- even love. The marriages faltered; the relationship between the two men continued on and on through good times and bad, until death did them part -- death is a force of nature. What a compelling story!
Yes, I had wondered if this mirrored something about how the two of them were edging towards a break-up. With Ennis, I can't help but feel he was setting things up to be that way. With Jack, it was probably the final realization that things were not to change...
tpe, you could be right but i dont want to think of them breaking up but yes i think you are probaly right :\'(
Same here LF. When I watched this scene in Maryland, I couldn't help thinking that they were groping towards some precipice -- almost willing it to happen. It was probably the furthest they pushed each other outside of their comforst zones. If there is any comfort in all this, we saw that in spite of all the heartache, both managed to back away from the precipice in this emotionally-chraged scene.
Yes and as we know they had planned to meet up again thank god.
But perhaps Jack would not have gone? I hate to think of what could have happened. In a sense, death proved merciful to their love.
But perhaps Jack would not have gone? I hate to think of what could have happened. In a sense, death proved merciful to their love.
I don't think quitting was ever a true option for either of them, but I always have the words of the book in my head as well as what I heard them say. This force of nature was stronger than that, it would not allow the quitting. Jack would have been there in November, only one thing could stop him and my heart says it was far far from being an act of mercy, his death. He would have gone. There was still hope till he breathed till more.
Jack indeed might have been there, even if he would have moved with Randal to LF.
His death was certainly not an act of mercy. But I think it is possible that death would preserve the memory of things in their prime, as heroes of old sought an early death in exchange for remembrance.
I can't imagine Jack really bringing anyone to his daddy's, maybe that was always dreaming. It's so important that annie let us know that never happened.
Do you mean for us, if we believe the affair was over from the movie, that it would have been better for us to remember them as being in the affair? I can't say since I don't believe the affair could have ever been over, but I would be interested to know if others might think that. I know it wasn't for Ennis, I mean knowing jack was dead. That man couldn't have been more destroyed, so sad it actually still makes my gut fist up.
jessi
I can't imagine Jack really bringing anyone to his daddy's, maybe that was always dreaming. It's so important that annie let us know that never happened.
Do you mean for us, if we believe the affair was over from the movie, that it would have been better for us to remember them as being in the affair? I can't say since I don't believe the affair could have ever been over, but I would be interested to know if others might think that. I know it wasn't for Ennis, I mean knowing jack was dead. That man couldn't have been more destroyed, so sad it actually still makes my gut fist up.
jessi
I hate the thought of jack taking randell up to L.F . I know in the confrontation scene it looked like things might be coming to a head with jack and ennis but i dont honestly believe for one minute jack would of quit no matter how bad things got he just could,nt do it.I know it looked like jack couldnt take anymore but to quit and never see ennis again no way.
Hello LF. As I had said before, Jack moving on with Randall does not mean that the love is dead. This happens all the time in real life, when our relationships with our great loves become untenable, and we try to move on, but never forget. Such I believe is the case of Jack. I would tend to believe Gyllenhaal's opinion that he could have moved on, but I don't think it meant that the love was dead.
What is that saying if you cant be with the one you love ,love the one your with.No matter where jack or ennis went or who they ended up with the love they had for each other would never of died. But i just cant see them not seeing each other ever again i know it happens in real life and you just havto move on . It is jack the one i see not being able to move on not so much ennis although jack appeared to be moving on so we were lead to believe with randall.
Honestly, it is hard for me also to think that they would never see each other again. That is why Jack's death was such a blow. But I do recognize that death itself can be a powerful resolution.
If only the story ended differently but if it did we wouldnt be having this conversation doesnt matter how long we discuss this we will never have a answer will we .But in our minds we can end the story how we want cant we.
I don't mind the tragic ending, LF. In fact, I love the story all the more because of it. But I recognize that for many of us, this is not the case.
Sorry if I am now slightly off topic here! :)
Hello Jessi. I think it is better to refer to their love as being intact, even though they may have moved on. From the words of Jack's dad, Proulx implies that it was Jack's intention to move with Randall to LF. But yes, I don't think it ever became a reality, although the movie may have suggested more in some of the deleted scenes.
It can be argued that it was better for Jack to have died before he could have acted on his intention to move with Randall. Although you have said that you cannot imagine this to be so, the possibility is indeed there. What could have happened after that is hard to imagine. Ennis of course implied that he could "kill" Jack if he ever found out about things "he didn't know", but could he really have harmed Jack had he found out about Randall? And then again, would Jack have been content to lose Ennis and build a life with Randall?
All such possibilities, whether we believe it or not, become moot because of jack's death. The answer is: we will never know. In that sense, the memory of Jack is intact, even though it closed the door on Ennis forever.
I think I made the mistake of reading her words before seeing the movie and saw it somewhat different because of that. That love Jack had, the love that held and drove him for all those years is one few ever experience, it's hard to for me to compare jack to anyone I know or even read about, who has loved and moved on. It would have destroyed him, living in that shadow, missing those arms even if just one more time. I think the bringing Randall to his daddy's place, even bringing Ennis there, was just his wishful dreaming. He knew he could never live with a man there, not and his daddy around. Jack was tired, facing mid life, cornered by his own spirit and will. If he had tried a life with another man it would have been brief and hurt the other one. There was some hope before he died, that made his death even more tragic, at least in the book. Take away the OS and we are led places she didn't take us and it's surely easier to believe he was murdered. The rest, more open and we are suppose to see it each through our own eyes.
However, of course I do not think that move was ever intended, and if happened short lived, but even if he did, even if he did what I think was impossible, end the affair (and if that didn't lesson the love, push it way out of the way he'd surely lost his mind or killed himself, so the love couldn't say as it was), but ennis think he was alive and finding some peace I don't understand how it could be better for him to have died than lived. And he was still young, to live gave him many options next year or five years from now, him calling it quits could have changed Ennis, anything could happen, wide open. He died, Ennis is a shell liviing on dreams, he can't come to terms with all he's done, he can't move on with any real kind of life. Jack's ended and all his dreams and will and wonder and ability to love back did to (except in this story I'm writing, lol).
Please forgive this long rambling post, I'm not usually so passionate. Actually been told all my life what a downer and unromantic person I am.
Also new to forums, feel free to move or delete this long piece of fluff, lol, if it isn't where it should be. Hm, that might be just back in my head.
jessi
Thanks jessi for sharing this. Why move or delete it?
If one rules out the possibility of Jack moving on to someone else, then yes, death would have been a blow. If one considers it possible that Jack would have felt Ennis for another man, then perhaps jack's death would have been "kinder" to Ennis -- if such a determination of relative weights is even possible.
We speak so often of death lifting a burden as much as we speak of death as cutting life at its prime. For Jack, perhaps it was respite, if not for Ennis. But in the case of Ennis (as in most survivors), it is never easy to carry on under the slightest shadow of doubt. However he understood Jack's inevitable intentions, death was not easy to take in. He suffered either way. But the suffering may have been tempered by the fact that it made him realize how much Jack had loved him, and how much he himself was lost without Jack.
There are worse things in life than death itself. To have loved and to have had the knowledge of being loved is certainly onen thing that touches the meaning of what it means to live.
I agree, and oh yes there are things far worse than death, but Jack was young, so young and could have had so so much ahead of him. Ennis loved him enough to either accept his moving on and trying to find peaceful life or Ennis would have tried to do something about it, either way I think he loved him far too much for death to be a blessing. Kinder? after Jack died kindness was pretty much out of the picture. He knew Jack loved him and wanted him, only him and if someone else came in his life it would have to do with needing someone because Ennis wouldn't (which i itself, Jack quitting him, been the catalyst to put ennis into motion). Ennis knew how just thinking on this was torture for Jack, Jack wanted one thing and that was ennis. He might find someone else to make life bearable, but loving them would never be part of the equation, and the new relationship would probably be doomed from the get go. Death took that precious life and left Ennis destroyed by what was, could have been and most of all, he had lost the love of his life. And he still had to still let things be to wake and function each day. No, kind doesn't ring true to me. J He'd want that man he so loved to live with or without him, in my opinion. Death can be kind, but this one, no no no. Jack deserved a change.
Ever notice how when talking about their tragic lives I start rambling and blubbering, lol.
jessi
That's because it moves you, as it moves us.
What about the jewelry that Jack and Lureen wore throughout the movie.
A lot of silver and turquoise, I assume -- typicla of much of the jewelry in the Southwest. What were the blue stones that Lureen wore in her last scene, speaking with Ennis on the phone? Were they some form of blue garnet or tourmaline? They didn't look like sapphires...
Sorry tpe cant help you on that .
But i did notice lureens nails how tacky they looked and they were obviously false when she was talking to ennis on the phone.
She looked drawn and tired, mentioned he was only 39. I think she truly loved him, even if it could never really be, no way no how she could ever have been who he should have for her. She also looks bitter, maybe about him leaving her, normal reaction, maybe about what never was. She's not a young women anymore. I think Lureen had every right to be bitter. Can't blame any of them, they were all so real, so human. Seems Alma did much better, came out better.
My only regret on my number of post nearing 200 is I'll be an Alma. I don't dislike her, but I don't at all like her either.
jessi
I have said this before, but what's up with Jack and the color blue. I assumed this was his blue tent in the last scene? Had to have the blue parka, blue jeans, blue shirt. It was his fav color I suppose. He wore the color well, brought out those beautiful blue eyes .
Lureen seemed to morph by the end of the film. My sis used the expression, Look, the sun sprouted legs! Her big blond do in the later scenes was so different than when we first saw her. Still wonder why Jack married her. She was brash and bordered on arrogance in the scene with LaShawn and Randall. " husbands don't ever wanna dance with their wives" why is that Jack? ( with the little nudge) . yeah, jack why is that? Did she know more than she let on? Yeah , she was beautiful and rich, but she does'nt really fit Jack imo. Don't feel the connection at all. Jack wanted Ennis, went after Jimbo, apparently took Randall up on the offer, then back to Ennis. Did he really love her? except for Ennis I see Jack looking for love in all the wrong places when they just sort of drifted together. Where is the foundation for love here? I saw a lot of lust, but that's different from being in love with somebody. obviously, she was concerned with " appearences" . Needless to say, I did'nt like her character much, but respect A. Hathaway's portayal of her as an excellent actress. My observation.
The beautiful blue eyes may just be those of Jake rather than Jack! :)
Alma I think is made deliberately dowdy and unattractive, partly to show the relative poverty she and Ennis live in, the backwater where they live and their lack of concern with appearances.
Lureeen with her hair,clothes.jewellery - each one worse than the other IMO - shows the relative affluence of her life and I think also her concern with the materialistic, the impression she makes on observers and her shallowness of character. She and Alma are opposite ends of the same continuum.
I have said this before, but what's up with Jack and the color blue. I assumed this was his blue tent in the last scene? Had to have the blue parka, blue jeans, blue shirt. It was his fav color I suppose. He wore the color well, brought out those beautiful blue eyes .
Lureen seemed to morph by the end of the film. My sis used the expression, Look, the sun sprouted legs! Her big blond do in the later scenes was so different than when we first saw her. Still wonder why Jack married her. She was brash and bordered on arrogance in the scene with LaShawn and Randall. " husbands don't ever wanna dance with their wives" why is that Jack? ( with the little nudge) . yeah, jack why is that? Did she know more than she let on? Yeah , she was beautiful and rich, but she does'nt really fit Jack imo. Don't feel the connection at all. Jack wanted Ennis, went after Jimbo, apparently took Randall up on the offer, then back to Ennis. Did he really love her? except for Ennis I see Jack looking for love in all the wrong places when they just sort of drifted together. Where is the foundation for love here? I saw a lot of lust, but that's different from being in love with somebody. obviously, she was concerned with " appearences" . Needless to say, I did'nt like her character much, but respect A. Hathaway's portayal of her as an excellent actress. My observation.
Lureeen with her hair,clothes.jewellery - each one worse than the other IMO - shows the relative affluence of her life and I think also her concern with the materialistic, the impression she makes on observers and her shallowness of character. She and Alma are opposite ends of the same continuum.
Maybe it´s a nonsense,but,have you noticed in the farewell scene after leaving BBM the way Ennis looks at Jack?I mean,when this says that perhaps he´ll come back to BBM next year,his eyes seems to pray Ennis:-"Please,stay with me...". :\'( In this moment,Ennis,who has been avoiding look at him at the eye- surely for avoiding also to remain catched in their beauty-takes one or two glances all along Jack´s body...As he wants to have a complete reminder of this body he loves so much. <^( More :\'(
Oh,Jessi,be romantic,please¡ :) I know his vision problem because of the punch,but eyes could have a lot of strenght,and more still eyes like Jack/Jake´s :*( Yes,he seems to take a picture,and all this makes a very sad scene.I love it,however.
In the story he had trouble looking at him in the eye because of the bruise from his punch too. He takes last looks like taking a picture, yeah, I noticed that. Killer scene.
jessi
Oh,Jessi,be romantic,please¡ :) I know his vision problem because of the punch,but eyes could have a lot of strenght,and more still eyes like Jack/Jake´s :*( Yes,he seems to take a picture,and all this makes a very sad scene.I love it,however.
These line of passages from the film intrigue me greatly.
This is a bitch of an unsatisfactory situation, you used ta come away easy, now it's like seeing the pope"
"Jack, I gotta work, In the beginning I just quit the job, You forget what it's like bein broke all the time"I can't quit this one.
It was hard enough gettin this time"
What I see is Ennis trying to reason with Jack about his financial situation, and how he cannot just pick up at a moment's notice and spend more time with Jack whenever he wanted. Is he saying Jack has changed since he has married money? Seems to be standing up to Jack in contrast to when they were on BBM, and Jack bitched , Ennis simply took actions to "fix" the problems. But not this time. Why? Is this just another percieved "excuse" to distance himself from Jack.? Or is he justified and legit? And what about Jack? I know he's disappointed about the date change, but Ennis must make a living right? What changed from " in the beginning"? when Ennis just quit jobs to be with Jack?
I think it functions at both. There is more than a grain of truth to what Ennis said -- he was older now, and it was no longer easy to find work, especially if he had to compete with the younger ones. But I think it was also a way of distancing himself.Things are seen in a rather different way when one is young and nobody depends on your economic support than when you´re older,with problems for this age and lack of job skills and with children to maintain,you right O0.But I think it´s in this scene where we can see better not only this lack of a real communication we´ve spoken about sometimes,but also a kind of shellfishness on the part of both of them.Ennis doesn´t understand that Jack is arriving at a point of his life in which he wants ANSWERS,doesn´t want to wait more for a dream´s doing he´s seeing more and more far,as you tpe say.And this doesn´t understand that Ennis is arriving,on his side,at another point of his life in which all the economical and working questions I´ve indicated before are more dramatically outstanding,because Jack´s better social level avoid him to worry about them... %(
I don't think it was just the date change that bothered Jack. It was clear that things were changing for a long time -- perhaps greater reticence on Ennis's part over the years made it more and more difficult for him to remain silent.
The difference then and now is of course age. Both of them are older know, perhaps more entrenched in some ways, but less stable in others. For Jack, I do think he felt that time to live the dream was slipping -- that was his primary concern, and not money or work. He was ready to leave Lureen and the comfort of that life for a more austere life up at LF. It is telling.
I should imagine another reason ennis could,nt just quit the jobs was because
he had child support to pay each month.
Things are seen in a rather different way when one is young and nobody depends on your economic support than when you´re older,with problems for this age and lack of job skills and with children to maintain,you right O0.But I think it´s in this scene where we can see better not only this lack of a real communication we´ve spoken about sometimes,but also a kind of shellfishness on the part of both of them.Ennis doesn´t understand that Jack is arriving at a point of his life in which he wants ANSWERS,doesn´t want to wait more for a dream´s doing he´s seeing more and more far,as you tpe say.And this doesn´t understand that Ennis is arriving,on his side,at another point of his life in which all the economical and working questions I´ve indicated before are more dramatically outstanding,because Jack´s better social level avoid him to worry about them... %(
But there´s something that intrigues me in your post,tpe,and it´s what I´ve put in bold;can you explain,please,why do you think Ennis´s phrase is also a way of distancing himself?Do you really think he wanted to get away from his lover?For tiredness,for fear,for not liking so much how Jack has changed in last times?Jack is at the point of giving up really-IMO since the scene near the river in which Ennis answer was quite cinic even...-,but what about Ennis?Does he want to leave their relationship at that point,although later he realises he wants to see Jack again by sending him the last card?.I wonder.Can you explain the reasons?. :t)
Yes, he was certainly more constrained, although I sometimes felt that he used his family obligations as an excuse. I have in mind here the post-divorce meeting when he sent Jack away.
Hello MPJ!I suppose I´ve understand,although sometimes it´s rather difficult for me because I can´t manage myself very well still in English... ~) Yes,he was catched between his duties-family,job,social pressures,etc-and the love he had for Jack.Indeed,a rather loud burden to lift by himself...Maybe unconsciously he was forcing Jack to arrive to this point of giving up.Do I understand or... *^)
I do have this feeling that there was a part of Ennis -- voluntary or involuntary -- that tried to pull away. When we say that Ennis is conflicted, we assume that there are forces pulling him apart -- in both ways.
My feeling is that as Ennis got older, perhaps his fears and isolation were getting the better of him. As you said, he was not as care-free and as confident as he was back in 63. And perhaps there was the involuntary (?) pull to create some distance between himself and the love that had, afterall, caused him so much internal agony as much as it gave him joy.
It's not that he wanted Jack to go away. It's just that there was a part of him that yearned for the burden inside him to be lifted, as a person trapped in a cave years for the storm to end.
Most of us can understand this, I think. Sometimes, we do things in spite of ourselves. We recognize the pull of certain things, even as we recognize that we sometimes years for what opposes it.
Let me start this way. Does this make sense to you?
I suppose I´ve understand,although sometimes it´s rather difficult for me because I can´t manage myself very well still in English... ~) Yes,he was catched between his duties-family,job,social pressures,etc-and the love he had for Jack.Indeed,a rather loud burden to lift by himself...Maybe unconsciously he was forcing Jack to arrive to this point of giving up.Do I understand or... *^)
you did very well in English. And wow do I disagree. I also do not think either was being selfish, anymore than they had been since 1963. they knew each other, knew the way it was and all this just had not been said. Ennis had promised jack a long visit in August and Jack had cut his heart out the night at the campfire, and in the book that wasn't the night before either probably so Ennis had even more time to think on this. I think Ennis was getting in a tighter box here, wouldn't be long before the childsupport would be over, getting old and harder to tramp all over the place, perhaps even worrying about more people coming in contact with them in the wild. The one thing he did not want was to lose Jack, never see him again yet the way things were going couldn't last, but again, jack walking away forever was not what he was going for. Of course he sent that post card, and I believe only one thing would have kept jack from being there. Maybe something would have happened then to change the course, maybe not, it is a space, but not him being there.Well,I was only saying that both of them didin´t understand-or aren´t able to fulfill-the other needs,they seem to be too catched in "their own loop" to put themselves in the other´s place sometimes.Is not this a kind of shellfishness?Yes,we´re shellfish when we love somebody and,at the same time,we´re able to do the greatest sacrifices...It´s in the human nature,I guess ^^) or #).They are our heroes,but even the heroes have their faults,and not for this we love them less-not me...- <^(
jessi
Thanks LF, MPJ, and jessi.
For me, in particular, I love them specifically for their faults, and I can sympathize even with a conflicted Ennis, in the sense that everyone has been there: when we feel that we want and don't want something at the same time.
My own feeling is that Ennis was never simple, as much as Jack was not simple. The same way that Jack loved Ennis even though he played around with other men, Ennis loved Jack even though there was something in him that struggled against loving another man.
I think both of them are very human.
I don't know if anybody is simple. Jack's love for Ennis was all consuming. The small amount of sex with other men had to be heartbreaking for him, and he explained why it happened at all. Maybe till that point ennis didn't know, or didn't have to admit, how bad it got for Jack, bad enough that sometimes he actually sought out someone else, but that had no bearing on his love for Ennis. Jack understood Ennis, knew why he didn't give in to happiness, but must have been torture to try and accept, knowing it didn't have to be that way. Ennis' love for Jack was absolute, timeless, and life defining. They were human in complicated times, personal histories, circumstance... gentle souls and intelligent minds... they were good men who loved each other, so much that even all that was against them couldn't prevail; it could keep from having the sweet life, could keep them tormented, but couldn't allow them to let go.
I had the same impression. Did you notice that Jack's face as he entered the dark alley in Juarez didn't exactly look happy? There was determination, yes, but he seemed like someone who was wishing to forget, and not exactly someone who was in search of pleasure...
Jack was getting back at Ennis and slamming his fist emotionally into a windshield.
Something that caught my eye was that it seems (at least to me) like the only time we see Ennis truly happy is when he is standing on the landing at the reunion and later when he is smiling up at the stars. In both scenes we see Ennis with his guard down. When he is smiling down at Jack just before he runs down the stairs he looks so happy. Later, when he is sending up that little prayer, I love that little smile of joy on his face.
Hi tpe! I like the embrace as well and wish like everyone else that we could have seen more of this type of thing from Ennis. There are times when he reminds so much of someone I used to know that it is scary, and then there are times he reminds me of myself at various times in life. But I guess we can all relate to these two fellows in one way or another!
Something that caught my eye was that it seems (at least to me) like the only time we see Ennis truly happy is when he is standing on the landing at the reunion and later when he is smiling up at the stars. In both scenes we see Ennis with his guard down. When he is smiling down at Jack just before he runs down the stairs he looks so happy. Later, when he is sending up that little prayer, I love that little smile of joy on his face.
The morning of the confrontation, the scene starts out with both of them behind the back of Ennis's horse trailor, no doubt settling thm in for the ride home, but I see Ennis wiping his mouth before he picks up Jack's saddle, A sloppy goodbye kiss from Jack?....
btw, I don't recall Jack owning a horse of his own, and he owns a saddle? Anyway the horses saw and heard it all did'nt they? Best seat in the house, like a fly on the wall so to speak.
I also see a rifle and various other items belonging to Jack, but no fishing pole. Hey Lureen, guess what! Did'nt she have a clue? And later on, " Husbands don't ever wanna to dance with their wives", "Why is that Jack"? I hear a suspicious taunt, but maybe I'm wrong. Hmmmm telling? Just a few observations of mine. Thanks.
The morning of the confrontation, the scene starts out with both of them behind the back of Ennis's horse trailor, no doubt settling thm in for the ride home, but I see Ennis wiping his mouth before he picks up Jack's saddle, A sloppy goodbye kiss from Jack?....
btw, I don't recall Jack owning a horse of his own, and he owns a saddle? Anyway the horses saw and heard it all did'nt they? Best seat in the house, like a fly on the wall so to speak.
I also see a rifle and various other items belonging to Jack, but no fishing pole. Hey Lureen, guess what! Did'nt she have a clue? And later on, " Husbands don't ever wanna to dance with their wives", "Why is that Jack"? I hear a suspicious taunt, but maybe I'm wrong. Hmmmm telling? Just a few observations of mine. Thanks.
Well, when Ennis called Lureen after Jack's death, she said that she knew who he was, Jack's fishing or hunting buddy!!! Because they used to hunt too!! Well, fishing and hunting, and "fishing and hunting", you know.... >:D
The morning of the confrontation, the scene starts out with both of them behind the back of Ennis's horse trailor, no doubt settling thm in for the ride home, but I see Ennis wiping his mouth before he picks up Jack's saddle, A sloppy goodbye kiss from Jack?....
btw, I don't recall Jack owning a horse of his own, and he owns a saddle? Anyway the horses saw and heard it all did'nt they? Best seat in the house, like a fly on the wall so to speak.
I also see a rifle and various other items belonging to Jack, but no fishing pole. Hey Lureen, guess what! Did'nt she have a clue? And later on, " Husbands don't ever wanna to dance with their wives", "Why is that Jack"? I hear a suspicious taunt, but maybe I'm wrong. Hmmmm telling? Just a few observations of mine. Thanks.
This is something that has baffled me.
When Aguirre came into camp to inform Jack that his uncle was sick, was'nt Ennis suppose to be "pasturing the woolies" somewhere else? and was Jack's uncle really sick? or was this a "clever attempt by Aguirre to find out what was goin on up there? I mean in light of what he'd seen....????
I don't think Aguirre would make up a story to go visit. He can come and go anytime. Thing is, he made a point with Jack, with the binoculars, like it says in the short story, that he can see what goes on up there in the mountain, and he wanted Jack, at least, to know that he knows what's going on. And the fact is, Jack knew that Aguirre knew, but didn't tell anything to Ennis. Is that friendship, or just protecting his own couple of high-altitude fu@$s a couple atimes a year? No matter what, I think true friendship speaks honestly. Jack isn't perfect, but he loves Ennis, and love can forgives a lot. Ennis can forgive Jack just about anything, even Mexico.
Tpe,
Aguirre stated that he wanted the camper tender one place and the herder pasturing the sheep someplace else. Maybe I'm wrong but they appear to be in camp together, though Ennis is doing his job at that moment.. What time of day is it when this occurs? Looks to me like Aguirre spied on them having their love/wrestle fest that morning, Did Jack leave camp with Ennis later that morning? or did Ennis never leave Jack? I'm confused I guess. I am assuming it is still the day following SNIT and Ennis spent the whole night in camp with Jack. If you have another take on this , I'd be grateful, please inform? Thanks.
The sheep, beans, coyotes, and snowfall weren't important anymore, Ennis slept every night with Jack, awoke with him every morning, then it's over so suddenly. The one human being in his whole life he connected with, and he was being taken away so soon. How powerless he must have felt with Jack driving off, and there was nothing he could do about it, but fall on his knees and retch.
The pain of loss, was so unbearable, and how human.
Hello aintfoolin. I don't think they were in camp together at that point. Aguirre was pointing his binoculars way up on Brokeback mountain, where Ennis was pasturing the sheep. IT's the same distance when Ennis looks up the mountain at Jack early in the movie -- Jack is a small speck to him from the camp site. Yes, I think Aguirre spied on them that morning and probably reached Jack later that day; by then, Ennis had already left to go to the sheep high up on Brokeback. And yes, I think he did spend the night with Jack, against Aguirre's instructions.
Thanks Tpe for setting the record straight, to me the way the scene is presented , Ennis seems closer.
L Cowboy, sorry for your past experience concerning your loss, I'm glad you find solace within the movie and this forum. Amazing! You and MG have a gift of extrordinary insight. A wonderful way of word expression, I learn something every time you post. Thanks.
Ennis was seemingly powerless, but in reality he was not without choices. He made the one he thought best at the time imo. The passer-by who stopped to observe Ennis in the alley, out of concern was the recipient of Ennis's anger, anger at who? Jack? himself? or just the whole damn situation?Apparently, when he feels powerless, he punches things, or someone. I doubt he felt the physical pain of punching a brick wall, but the emotional impact of pain and loss ,loosing Jack was so overwhelming for him.In my opinion he could've used a punching bag. :( :c)Great acting on Ledgers's part here. Just an observation.
Ennis was seemingly powerless, but in reality he was not without choices. He made the one he thought best at the time imo. The passer-by who stopped to observe Ennis in the alley, out of concern was the recipient of Ennis's anger, anger at who? Jack? himself? or just the whole damn situation?Apparently, when he feels powerless, he punches things, or someone. I doubt he felt the physical pain of punching a brick wall, but the emotional impact of pain and loss ,loosing Jack was so overwhelming for him.In my opinion he could've used a punching bag. :( :c)Great acting on Ledgers's part here. Just an observation.
The sheep, beans, coyotes, and snowfall weren't important anymore, Ennis slept every night with Jack, awoke with him every morning, then it's over so suddenly. The one human being in his whole life he connected with, and he was being taken away so soon. How powerless he must have felt with Jack driving off, and there was nothing he could do about it, but fall on his knees and retch.
The pain of loss, was so unbearable, and how human.
I think it was more of hate towards himself -- for allowing himself to get into all this, for falling in love. Incidentally, the scenes from the parting of Ennis and Jack to the marriage scene was the one selected for BBM in Ang Lee's moderated discussion at the Times Center in NYC.
I think here lies the big difference between Ennis and Jack: Ennis really felt that he didn't have that many choices, but Jack was oblivious to niceties and wanted only to push the envelope, in spite of all the probable consequences. Jack was perhaps too reckless, and Ennis was perhaps to conservative.
I agree Tpe, Ennis said within the story that it took him about a year to realize that he should never have let Jack out of his sights. Well what changed then? A year? How about him knowing pre- Jack driving off that day in "63"?
Obviously he knew then the mistake he was making. his choices regrettable, Why not keep in touch? So for the next 3 years Ennis thought about Jack every time he looked at a mountain or his horses, and wished he had him back in his life but he was stuck with what he had.
How ever he felt about Alma at the time, I feel he knew it did'nt compare to the way Jack made him feel. Ennis was sending Jack mixed messages imo ( the drive off scene, the reunion scene, and the divorce scenes for examples of leading Jack on)and in a way I feel it was insulting to Jack's emotions to be told that a year later, when he's married Alma and has a small child , all of a sudden it dons on him that he should have never let Jack go? hmmmm. Is it all about Ennis here? Seems so, but Jack has feelings too.
We can speculate forever on what choices he should have made but he had them. Only a year later, he compares what he had with Jack to what he has with Alma. and Jack obviously wins out evidenced by Ennis's behavior 3 years after the "great realization" in the reunion scene.
Of course he sent up a prayer of thanks, thanking the one above and his lucky stars that he was getting a second chance with Jack. Though he still could not commit fully the way Jack wanted, never again was Jack missing from his life on any long term basis like four years again.
I know I sound cynical /critical of Ennis's rationalizing,, but alot of people were hurt by the choices Ennis did make...., himself included .......Meanwhile, Jack is searching for what has alluded him. Some one who relates and understands him. Could'nt find it it in the rodeo clown and settles for Lureen, repeating Ennis's mistake. His own fears coming into play regarding a challenge to Ennis's choices. They liked and cared for these women, but I doubt either one of them fell deeply in love with their wives. Both their hearts where already spoken for in "63". Anything and anyone could never measure up . I love Ennis, but Jack deserved better. My observations. :t)
I agree Tpe, Ennis said within the story that it took him about a year to realize that he should never have let Jack out of his sights. Well what changed then? A year? How about him knowing pre- Jack driving off that day in "63"?
Obviously he knew then the mistake he was making. his choices regrettable, Why not keep in touch? So for the next 3 years Ennis thought about Jack every time he looked at a mountain or his horses, and wished he had him back in his life but he was stuck with what he had.
How ever he felt about Alma at the time, I feel he knew it did'nt compare to the way Jack made him feel. Ennis was sending Jack mixed messages imo ( the drive off scene, the reunion scene, and the divorce scenes for examples of leading Jack on)and in a way I feel it was insulting to Jack's emotions to be told that a year later, when he's married Alma and has a small child , all of a sudden it dons on him that he should have never let Jack go? hmmmm. Is it all about Ennis here? Seems so, but Jack has feelings too.
We can speculate forever on what choices he should have made but he had them. Only a year later, he compares what he had with Jack to what he has with Alma. and Jack obviously wins out evidenced by Ennis's behavior 3 years after the "great realization" in the reunion scene.
Of course he sent up a prayer of thanks, thanking the one above and his lucky stars that he was getting a second chance with Jack. Though he still could not commit fully the way Jack wanted, never again was Jack missing from his life on any long term basis like four years again.
I know I sound cynical /critical of Ennis's rationalizing,, but alot of people were hurt by the choices Ennis did make...., himself included .......Meanwhile, Jack is searching for what has alluded him. Some one who relates and understands him. Could'nt find it it in the rodeo clown and settles for Lureen, repeating Ennis's mistake. His own fears coming into play regarding a challenge to Ennis's choices. They liked and cared for these women, but I doubt either one of them fell deeply in love with their wives. Both their hearts where already spoken for in "63". Anything and anyone could never measure up . I love Ennis, but Jack deserved better. My observations. :t)
I don't how to explain what I'm thinking, so please bare with me. Ennis always for me anyway went by the five senses, more so than thinking too much about how he felt. FNIT was pure sexual desire he was aroused, so took Jack, that night. The SNIT, he really felt Jack, he touched him, wanted to get lost in the scent of Jack, he closed his eyes, and let the senses take over, he succumb totally to touch, to smell, to desire.
And it was that way in the final scene of the movie, when Alma left her sweater he folded so neatly, and brought it to his nose, to remember almost that "yes" she was there. When he open the closet to put it away, he had to touch Jack's shirt, button that top button, and adjust the post card.
Ennis couldn't sit down and in a "Dr. Phil" moment discuss what was going with him, it wasn't happening. When it got too much for him to deal with it was in violence he reacted, the punch he gave Jack that final day, he didn't want leave him, he was aroused by their play fighting, remember it was Ennis who took it a step further, Jack was trying calm him down when the knee to nose happened and Ennis started bleeding, the shove he in the final confrontation, when in threatening Jack, he couldn't deal with idea of Jack giving himself to some else but him. The Thanksgiving with Alma, the reality of his best kept secret was revealed, but the fact that she knew didn't bothered him, but the fact she attacked his lover angered him.
His understanding of Jack's love for him was in the shirts, something he could hold feel, and finally understand. And I'll bet, Jack knew Ennis better than anyone else, he had be shown love.
I don't if this make any sense at all, but it's alway been in my head.
I agree Tpe, Ennis said within the story that it took him about a year to realize that he should never have let Jack out of his sights. Well what changed then? A year? How about him knowing pre- Jack driving off that day in "63"?
Obviously he knew then the mistake he was making. his choices regrettable, Why not keep in touch? So for the next 3 years Ennis thought about Jack every time he looked at a mountain or his horses, and wished he had him back in his life but he was stuck with what he had.
How ever he felt about Alma at the time, I feel he knew it did'nt compare to the way Jack made him feel. Ennis was sending Jack mixed messages imo ( the drive off scene, the reunion scene, and the divorce scenes for examples of leading Jack on)and in a way I feel it was insulting to Jack's emotions to be told that a year later, when he's married Alma and has a small child , all of a sudden it dons on him that he should have never let Jack go? hmmmm. Is it all about Ennis here? Seems so, but Jack has feelings too.
We can speculate forever on what choices he should have made but he had them. Only a year later, he compares what he had with Jack to what he has with Alma. and Jack obviously wins out evidenced by Ennis's behavior 3 years after the "great realization" in the reunion scene.
Of course he sent up a prayer of thanks, thanking the one above and his lucky stars that he was getting a second chance with Jack. Though he still could not commit fully the way Jack wanted, never again was Jack missing from his life on any long term basis like four years again.
I know I sound cynical /critical of Ennis's rationalizing,, but alot of people were hurt by the choices Ennis did make...., himself included .......Meanwhile, Jack is searching for what has alluded him. Some one who relates and understands him. Could'nt find it it in the rodeo clown and settles for Lureen, repeating Ennis's mistake. His own fears coming into play regarding a challenge to Ennis's choices. They liked and cared for these women, but I doubt either one of them fell deeply in love with their wives. Both their hearts where already spoken for in "63". Anything and anyone could never measure up . I love Ennis, but Jack deserved better. My observations. :t)
I am not defending Ennis because I love the character, and the role portrayed by Heath Ledger.
I am only making observations in my humble opinion to present an alternative viewpoint.
First of all, in the summer of '63, Ennis was not prepared to do anything more than stay in touch with Jack. Cowboys simply do that in those days in rural Wyoming. It is unfair to judge Ennis with our standards of today. Circumstances are different. Ennis does not think as fast as Jack, which is why the two complements each other so well. All Ennis knew was the scene of Earl that his father showed him, as far as he knew, the father (the man he idolized) could have done the job. In the short story, Ennis also mentioned that if his father walked in on them in the motel room, he'd probably go get his tire iron.
Secondly, I agree that Ennis should have postponed the wedding. But again, in the social customs of the time, Ennis tried to buried his feelings in the prayer to be "delivered from evil, and led not into temptation." This scene in the movie is so poignant for me, and it is also why it is my least favorite part of the movie. It was the beginning of the tragedy. If Ennis postponed the wedding, to work Brokeback another year, as an excuse to save more money, he might have met up with Jack again and worked things out. As it were, his haste to get hitched with Alma led to the lies he had to tell, the ...
Finally, Ennis never gave Jack any mixed message. It was clear from the beginning that Ennis only wanted a one shot deal, only wanted the fun of being cowboys with Jack. Even Jack was surprised at the intensity of the reunion. Ennis certainly must have been shocked..."there ain't no reins on this one". As far as Ennis is concerned, the rules were clear and the boundaries set, which is why Jack is always hesitant to propose anything more than just Brokeback Mountain. He knew the response from Ennis and after a while, he doesn't want to get shot down any more.
The love that Jack had for Ennis, even when insulted and heartbroken, was always forgiving and loving. It is this force of nature that transformed Ennis in the end, when he discovered how constant and faithful Jack was to him, even unto the end, well, almost. The immovable object was moved by the force of nature. Without Ennis' stubborn resistance, the movie would not be as meaningful, and Jack's love would not be held up as so admirable. Ennis and Jack are what they are. Neither can be any different without the movie being very different.
And I agree, also, that the wives deserved better. They were also the victims of society's oppressive custom of marrying off young people just for the sake of marriage and procreation. Truth is, they were the most victimized of the couples, although they were also with power in the movie, Alma by having the truth, and taking a stand while Lureen by having money. In both cases, they did not act like victims, because they were able to stand up for themselves.
Ennis and Jack were also able to eventually stand up for their love for each other. Jack through the shirts he left behind, with his mother's acceptance and acknowledgement; Ennis through the love of his daughter(s) and his memory of Jack and Brokeback Mountain.
Interesting points here, lance. I don't know if I agree, but you do raise interesting points here.
As far as Ennis was concerned, I am not even sure if he knew where all the set boundaries lay. And here lies the problem of seeing that he didn't send mixed signals. For if the boundaries were set, he would have been more careful to keep the worlds of Jack and Alma completely apart, the way Jack did with Lureen. Granted, Alma had unfortunately spied on Ennis and Jack early on during the reunion, but his later total disregard of keeping things hidden from her speaks that he didn't really respect his own preconcieved boundaries.
Well, what you say nevertheless points to the fact that the case of Ennis is never simple. I don't think he really knew what he wanted, up until it was too late.
I think there are two separate reasons for Ennis' behavior.
There is the conscious awareness of boundaries, which is what prompted all the accusations of paranoia of keeping things secret.
The is the unconscious need and love for Jack, which made Ennis dizzy and excited and totally ill-equipped to lie to Alma, which he was never good at in the first place. Fact is, when Jack comes to Ennis' house, it's harder to lie about it. And Jack, after all, is better at convincing people of his dreams. No offense intended.
So, it is not a matter of Ennis misleading Jack, who after all said and done, was the one who sent the postcard, the one who drove fourteen hours redlining to Riverton, the one who insists on more. Jack could choose at anytime to move on. What is admirable about his love for Ennis is that despite never enough time, never enough...he held on, for twenty years. I could also relate to Jack in that respect, because I was in a relationship that I held on for a long time when I should have let go. It is not easy to do, to held on or to let go. Either choice is difficult, and neither is desirable. But in the end, I let go for my own sake. It was selfish, but also self-preservation because the other person was doing drugs, and would not change. At some point, there has to be boundaries. As Dr. Phil says, there are deal-breakers in a relationship. Drugs, emotional or physical abuse, ... Ennis was not doing any of that. If anything, and I know I will get flak for this, Jack was the one who introduced alcohol, and pot into the relationship. Anyway, I am letting my bias show here. To me, Ennis is always the voiceless man who needed, yearned for love and affection, hiding behind walls, leaning against walls like wanting to disappear into them. He wasn't giving mixed signals. He was confused. It took the force of nature to shine light into has fortress, to bring the man out from behind the walls, to free his soul from the chains and bonds that kept him alone all those years.
I think there are two separate reasons for Ennis' behavior.
There is the conscious awareness of boundaries, which is what prompted all the accusations of paranoia of keeping things secret.
The is the unconscious need and love for Jack, which made Ennis dizzy and excited and totally ill-equipped to lie to Alma, which he was never good at in the first place. Fact is, when Jack comes to Ennis' house, it's harder to lie about it. And Jack, after all, is better at convincing people of his dreams. No offense intended.
So, it is not a matter of Ennis misleading Jack, who after all said and done, was the one who sent the postcard, the one who drove fourteen hours redlining to Riverton, the one who insists on more. Jack could choose at anytime to move on. What is admirable about his love for Ennis is that despite never enough time, never enough...he held on, for twenty years. I could also relate to Jack in that respect, because I was in a relationship that I held on for a long time when I should have let go. It is not easy to do, to held on or to let go. Either choice is difficult, and neither is desirable. But in the end, I let go for my own sake. It was selfish, but also self-preservation because the other person was doing drugs, and would not change. At some point, there has to be boundaries. As Dr. Phil says, there are deal-breakers in a relationship. Drugs, emotional or physical abuse, ... Ennis was not doing any of that. If anything, and I know I will get flak for this, Jack was the one who introduced alcohol, and pot into the relationship. Anyway, I am letting my bias show here. To me, Ennis is always the voiceless man who needed, yearned for love and affection, hiding behind walls, leaning against walls like wanting to disappear into them. He wasn't giving mixed signals. He was confused. It took the force of nature to shine light into has fortress, to bring the man out from behind the walls, to free his soul from the chains and bonds that kept him alone all those years.
I see within those boundaries there was a consious awareness of his actions also. His actions were of such that he knew how to swing this thing not only to his favor by laying down the rules of where they will meet and when. He was the one with the excuses, his fam, his jobs, though some of these where legit, but like MG said Jack knew Ennis well ALMOST had him figured but he basically knew Ennis's thought processes, him being the only witness to Ennis "transformation" on BBM. his actions suggestive only , but he said and did enough to let Ennis know what the deal was. Jack loved him. He knew that whatever confusion or conflict Ennis found himself in, he was the key, and the one who for the moments they were together Ennis could let go and be himself....Ennis knew it too, imo. but take the reunion scene for instance and there are others though this being one of the most obvious.
From the moment Alma informs him that a postcard from Jack had arrived. He is faced with the choice of answering or not answering. He immediatley and conciously lies to Alma. He answers "you bet. Those two little words to Jack says {"Yes I want to see you.}" {" I welcome you."} , the reception he got ,lead Jack to believe that there was going to more in the future. maybe he was'nt saying it verbally but Jack's hopes are up by the actions. The divorce scene, Ennis informs Jack , not the opposite, again leading Jack to believe one thing, and lets him down. He enjoys being with Jack, sexual aspects included but, it went much deeper for Ennis than that, as long as the affair is in secret. Then there's the talk following the motel scene by the river where Jack makes a proposition to ranch up with him. Willing to leave his marriage behind? Ennis had to know that Jack meant serious business. Knew what Jack was suggesting and all that entails. This he was not ready to do. To be defy society and his fears live his true feelings.
This did not lessen his need or desire for Jack, but I still feel he was making consious choices to conceal the affair in order to continue seeing Jack. Yeah, he said there was no reins on this one, but that is imo regarding his undeniable feelings he had and not seeing them dissipating any time soon, a lesson being learned after 4 years. His conflict benefitted from the "arrangment, not Jack's desire. Everytime they made love there is a concious decision made on both parts. I did'nt see him hesitant about meeting Jack either,in fact the opposite. regardless of how Alma percieved him. In the Thanksgiving scene it is not "how often" he saw Jack that mattered to Alma, it was the what and why Ennis was meeting Jack what it meant. When pressed further he defends himself and Jack, thus defending the relationship.
But through out the film Ennis makes many concious choices , those decicions may stem from confusion at times, but not of the fact that he loved Jack, but the how, where, when he was gonna deal with it in the face of a closed minded society.
Not saying that Ennis took any action with malice in mind , but I do feel he was concious of most of his decisions, with a "that's the way it's gotta be" attitude. Jack simply lived on hope that someday Ennis would see it his way. Major rationalization and denial imo. More observations.
This exchange is great, thanks for sharing with us. "Slipping", I love that. Ennis to me, slipping into reality. Ennis only became alive when Jack was there, knowing he was going to be there. No matter how Alma tried to rein him in she couldn't. It was not so much as avoiding Alma and Jack getting to know each other, it was that Ennis didn't want to share Jack with anyone, not even Alma.
Jack was his, and his alone. That's what so weird about Ennis, even knowing Jack might have had something going on with the "Ranch foreman's wife", he if got shot he would have deserved it. This is after his own divorce, Alma letting Ennis know about him and Jack, and the subject of Cassie, which we know then Ennis had no interest in, after all. Ennis always had way of letting Jack know he belonged to him. Why do you think Jack accused of keeping him on that short leash, there's ways of knowing that this is someone would not commit totally, but not letting you go totally either, Jack felt this. If Jack would have let slipped that Randall was in the picture, Ennis would have killed on the spot. Mexico was hard for Ennis to handle, what in the heck do you think Ennis would do if he found that Jack had another lover. This is not nice, this doesn't play in what we might like to think of Ennis, but sex, love, passion makes us do, say things we not might think ourselves capable of. And this is relationship, that one partner felt he sacrificed his whole life for this one person, and look what he does to me. This kind of passion, fear, love, anger, frustration could run through us all, we hurt we want someone else to hurt.
Jack was smarter than that. He knew what he Ennis could deal with, and when to pull back. Ennis had only one real love in his life, his first and only love . The thought of letting Jack go never and would have entered his mind. It was only when he thought Jack could quit him is when he brokedown. Jack was his existence, the center of his life.
Yeah, this is great. It's getting past the honeymoon phase of Brokeback Mountain when it is not just romance any more, but real.
Yes, I caught the little hesitation on Jack's part, just before he said Ranchers' wife. He almost wanted to say, Truth is, I found this other man... Kill him on the spot? That's pretty harsh, but certainly angry...and Ennis can be very ugly when he is angry.
Yup, what you said, and I bolded in red. It's Ennis to the core, and Jack knew it, and loved it. Ennis may have Jack on a short leash, but Jack had Ennis by the gonads, too. And they both knew this about each other. Who had the power in this relationship?
I got this idea from the donnie darko thread someone said they wanted to make a observation but it wasnt worth starting a new thread.cant remember who said it .
So i thought it might be a idea to do that here something you observed in the film but doesnt warrant a whole new thread . What do you all think?
I have quite a few but i will start with three.
Have you noticed how jack and ennis have progressed from sitting on logs in 1963 and 1967
to folding chairs at their last meeting
The fly on ennis.s right cheek when he is standing face to face with jack in the confrontation scene.
After the FNIT in the morning jack comes out of the tent that is the only time throughout the whole film that jack HAS NOT got his shirt tucked in his jeans. hmm
Jack doing laundry in the nude...except for his boots.
Ennis telling Alma "we might not get back tonight" "We get to drinkin and talkin an all" ...never occured to Ennis, Alma might question * this is gonna take all night? Where?
Ennis has killed two cyote by the time Jack meets him in the pasture after FNIT and has them displayed on some kind of a pole A warning to other predators? or perhaps Ennis felt it symbolic of ones who would do him and Jack harm, after inspecting the dead sheep following FNIT.Maybe he thought of Earl and Rich.
Ennis always has the mule, Jack is always the lead horse.
Those wonderful dogs.
Just a few observations I've pondered over.
Wonderful, AF. As for the final one -- I suppose you look at this metaphorically, and not just because Ennis was responsible for the baggage train.
Hey Thomas, that's REAL!!! I mean, yeah Ennis was the stubborn one and Jack lead the relationship, but Ennis REALLY had the mule in all the scenes up in BBM where the mule showed, and Jack was always the first wherever they were going to go, he had the lead horse!!
Amazing post AF!! I never noticed what you said about the coyotes!! (t) (t) (t)
Thank you so much!!
Thanks tpe and Baby Tammy, your right, the mule had nothing on Ennis. ;) :c)The baggage carrier, in more ways than one. Once he made his mind up about something, he did'nt budge.I agree with all what you've said,boys¡As regards to this definition of "the baggage carrier",could we say that Ennis,as the mules themselves,always was carrying a burden-a baggage-with him?The one of his fears,doubts and denials? ???
Thanks Tammy and AF. Yes, I agree that it is much more than that. On the walk to the bar, for instance, we see Ennis walking behind Jack, and in the famous (production) pic of both of them on horseback (probably from the scene with the Chilean shepherds), we see Jack leaning forward, and Ennis set back...
I agree with all what you've said,boys¡As regards to this definition of "the baggage carrier",could we say that Ennis,as the mules themselves,always was carrying a burden-a baggage-with him?The one of his fears,doubts and denials? ???
And this also can be a metaphor,as it has been already told,for their sexual relationships and the role each one of them used to play in it.
The horses on Brokeback saw and heard everything.
I love the scenes with Ennis and the basque. A hesitent Ennis hands the supply list to the basque probably hoping the basque did'nt remember him saying he did'nt eat soup or at least not say anything. Of course the basques's first words were " I thought you did'nt eat soup?". Ennis knows he's doing it for Jack.The basque dosen't.
I might be wrong, but I thought the guy was to bring light hearted humor. Also, this let us know that Ennis was doing everything in his power to make Jack happy. I kinda' liked him. ;)
Interesting POV, atalley. I admit that I never really thought of it this way. I did love the character, but I somehow read it to be more surly, more unsympathetic...
hmmm well I find myself concentrating on Ennis (who can blame me)? but I kind of find this scene cute from start to finish how Ennis acts. It's a scene that makes me smile :) I'll try to watch the other guy more next time to form my opinion on him :*(
I feel the basque was just doing his job as an employee of Aguirre's. I don't see contempt with him warning Ennis that Aguirre will "have your ass" if Ennis let the sheep stray or telling Ennis that the soup boxes were harder to pack. Maybe Ennis did'nt get the "spuds" or the powdered milk, but he did get a smile from the basque. I think he liked Ennis, and would have gotten him the soup like Ennis wanted. MO.
The horses they used on Brokeback look like the same horses Ennis owned later on. Hmmmm. :s)
Did Ennis ever get his own lighter, or borrowed Jack's all summer? Maybe cigarettes, and matches came in supply with the whiskey, what a boss Aguirre was!. :cr)
Jack had all the *extra* blankets. Enough to make pillows etc... :) ;)
Jack was crappy with the can opener, but excellent with the lasso.
In the scene where Ennis is asking Jack if he ever went some place and people looked at him like they knew? (knew what?) Wasn't this Ennis' round about way of admitting his homosexuality? That entire scene to me seemed like Ennis was trying to come out but didn't know how.
I share your view here. I've always felt in this one scene Ennis is finally trying to open up to Jack about being queer, trying to verbally punch out his emotions here. You know how hard this musta' been for Ennis to talk about something like this. Unfortunately, just like what happened years earlier up on BBM when they were forced to break-up camp (He's cuttin' us out a whole months pay), Jack completely misses Ennis's expressed inner turmoil here and provides a work-a-day, logical response. And, just like years earlier, Ennis angrily interprets Jack's response as light and frivolous. The similarities in these two scenes is striking to me.
Very interesting thread.
It took me many viewing after some time to notice the brand of the tractor
I thought it is interesting.
I share your view here. I've always felt in this one scene Ennis is finally trying to open up to Jack about being queer, trying to verbally punch out his emotions here. You know how hard this musta' been for Ennis to talk about something like this. Unfortunately, just like what happened years earlier up on BBM when they were forced to break-up camp (He's cuttin' us out a whole months pay), Jack completely misses Ennis's expressed inner turmoil here and provides a work-a-day, logical response. And, just like years earlier, Ennis angrily interprets Jack's response as light and frivolous. The similarities in these two scenes is striking to me.
You are so right, Ennis was in the only way he could was reaching out to Jack, in both cases Jack wasn't able to read Ennis well enough to recognize the signs. Some how, I may be wrong, but they really weren't able to get a real beat on each other's emotional state seeing it as something else from their own point of view, could this be because of scarcity of time they had with each other?
You are so right, Ennis was in the only way he could was reaching out to Jack, in both cases Jack wasn't able to read Ennis well enough to recognize the signs. Some how, I may be wrong, but they really weren't able to get a real beat on each other's emotional state seeing it as something else from their own point of view, could this be because of scarcity of time they had with each other?Maybe it wasn't so much the lack of time but more the era of the time Ennis and Jack were brought up in. This was when men were supposed to be the strong silent types when it came to feelings and they had difficulty expressing anything of a personal nature, just kept alot inside, and this caused the miscommunication. It was looked on I think as a form of weakness to admit these things, you just took it like a man and kept quiet for the most part. And heaven forbid you ever let someone see you cry, that made you a sissy, less of a man.
Maybe it wasn't so much the lack of time but more the era of the time Ennis and Jack were brought up in. This was when men were supposed to be the strong silent types when it came to feelings and they had difficulty expressing anything of a personal nature, just kept alot inside, and this caused the miscommunication. It was looked on I think as a form of weakness to admit these things, you just took it like a man and kept quiet for the most part. And heaven forbid you ever let someone see you cry, that made you a sissy, less of a man.
RimasworldYeah, we have still have some of those gary cooper type cowboys here too. I still can't believe Jack was so obtuse he let what Ennis said go over his head. I mean he wasn't dumb but I think he had that mindset like Ennis of hey I'm a man and not a "queer". We know things were not "normal" between him and Lureen but he felt the need to say they were. Maybe it was all those years of walking on eggshells around Ennis, but here imo Ennis was trying to finally open the door about sexual preference. To me it seems sometimes Jack was more closed off about his feelings. Again, products of their era.
Just wanted to say.
Those attitudes are alive and well still today. Least wheres I'm from.
You can shed a tear when your horse dies but dont you dare cry over your daddy's passin.
I enjoy your discussion on Ennis here. Yep Jackster you hit the nail on the head. Jacks response sent Ennis into himself again slammin the door closed.
"If you want to live your miserable life go right ahead."
I'm wondering, maybe you answer this for me. Ennis showed more of his vulnerability to Jack than he did with either Alma or Cassie. Jack at times I feel you had did quite get understand Ennis and his inner turmoil, that Jack was acting more like a "guy" in the sense you almost have to hit over the head to make him understand, (I know I'm gonna get crucified on that one), but sometimes it happens.
Ennis let his guard down, felt he could ask those questions of Jack, like "you ever get the feeling they know", but Jack just didn't get it.
I'm wondering, maybe you answer this for me. Ennis showed more of his vulnerability to Jack than he did with either Alma or Cassie. Jack at times I feel you had did quite get understand Ennis and his inner turmoil, that Jack was acting more like a "guy" in the sense you almost have to hit over the head to make him understand, (I know I'm gonna get crucified on that one), but sometimes it happens.
Ennis let his guard down, felt he could ask those questions of Jack, like "you ever get the feeling they know", but Jack just didn't get it.
Cry baby...Macho stud
What movie we talkin about again?
I never thought of Jack as a macho stud or a girlyman.
I certainly never thought of Ennis as a crybaby.
I think something went over my head and I need some wings to catch it.
I always thought they leveled each other out. Together made a whole.
the ebb and flow of relationship.
One is strong at certain times the other is weak. Then the other will have a bad time of it and the other step up.
Maybe I need another trip up that mountain.
"You been to Mexico?"
I always thought they leveled each other out. Together made a whole.
the ebb and flow of relationship.
One is strong at certain times the other is weak. Then the other will have a bad time of it and the other step up.
I don't know if there is such a thing as the perfect relationship.
I mean how would you ever get to the hot make ups!
Theres sometin to be said for a good fight every once in a while. I think it can convey passion as well as get your point across.
Like Ennis I tend to hold things in to long then it comes out as anger.
"Them things i don't know...all them things I don't know."
I don't know if there is such a thing as the perfect relationship.
I mean how would you ever get to the hot make ups!
Theres sometin to be said for a good fight every once in a while. I think it can convey passion as well as get your point across.
Like Ennis I tend to hold things in to long then it comes out as anger.
"Them things i don't know...all them things I don't know."
A perfect relationship is not about always agreeing with each other, and not having differences of opinions.
I think so.
Like the sweetest, pain. The double edge sword. Cant have it one way without the other. Yin/Yang. Good/Evil....someone stop me.
Like ...the good times wouldn't be so good if you didn't have the bad times to compare em too.
Maybe thats why God put us here. In light of eternity we will have known the evil of going our own way. Heaven is much sweeter knowing what hell was/is like. That his way, was best after all.
Just a thought. thanks tpe...
A "perfect" relationship is one that is not perfect. I know this sound paradoxical, but do you get what I mean here?
Joy cannot be cherished without having first plumbed the depths of despair.
Thanks Ranchand1.
Yup. It's what Dr. Phil called creative friction.... the differences in opinions that generates creativity, that lifts both up to a higher plane. Life is paradoxical, so I think what you said must be truth ... Truth.
Wow, this is beautifully said, tpe. O0 It reminds me of Aaron watching Julie's music video...and hearing the last phrase...to remember you...a watch of gold...and a kiss in snow. Then to find Chris in the restaurant... :\'( <^(
I know I posted this in the Ennis Del Mar pics thread, but I'd like to post it here too because I think that "this" is really interesting and unique and I wish I could get an answer from some of you about what that pillow means. I can't stop think about that since I found it. It gives me so many goosebumps every time I see it.
I quote myself, sorry. ^f^(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapu.mabul.org%2Fup%2Fapu%2F2008%2F08%2F13%2Fimg-212924bsws0.jpg&hash=3f29d39c28c4b7d3328e8faa5ee5b1871f6ee12a) (http://mabul.org/)
Have you noticed THOSE PILLOWS? One grey and the other one white? The grey one seems to be the one Ennis used every night because it's grey from using it so much, and it's all wrinkle and wasted......But the pure white one is immaculate, clean and without wrinkles......So it's obvious that Ennis didn't use it....
But then, why Ennis slept with two pillows? I know that some people do that, but they use BOTH pillows......but it seems to me that Ennis didn't ever touch that pillow, and still he had it with him, in his bed.....
Is that pillow for his Jack? :\'( :\'( :\'( What that pristine pillow means?
I wish someone of the brokies met Diana O. had asked her about this.
So I was driving around before and Jack's voice popped into my head. It's a stray thought so I wasn't sure where to post it. I heard him saying "You know, I'm commutin' four hours a day" and it hit me that he was "complaining" (maybe lamenting is the right word) about the distance and the travel he had to do to get to camp (and see Ennis ;) ) and yet this same man later drove hundreds of miles and countless hours to see Ennis. Then my mind flashed to that scene where he is looking towards camp and can see the fire and how they were only an hour apart and that seemed like too great a distance back in '63 and it just hit all over again how impossible it must've been to be so damn far apart after the mountain which is why, without complaint greater distances were traveled.
I hadn't really put the two together before LJN. But you're right. Those small inconveniences riled Jack on the mountain. He complained about all the little things that summer (just to blow the steam off, imo) but then he put up with so many bigger obstacles so stoically for all those years without ever complaining. Until the final confrontation. :-\\ Just goes to show how important Ennis was to him and that to Jack he was worth all of those miles and all that heartache.
I think Jack wasn't particularly trying to hide his true motives, no? Perhaps he wanted it this way so as to give a broader hint to Ennis -- and my feeling is that Ennis invariably took the bait (whther or not he did this deliberately.)
I agree Thomas!! That's why when Ennis said that he could go with the ship if Jack didn't want to do it anymore, Jack said that they BOTH should stay at camp. Jack was being obvious. He wanted both of them together all time!!
1. Ennis was copying Jack's address onto his "you bet" postcard using a small piece of wrinkled paper with Jack's address on it....not from Jack's postcard.
2. What does "special delivery" imply?
3. Ironically, Alma goes from doing laundry on an old washboard to living above a laundromat.
1. Ennis was copying Jack's address onto his "you bet" postcard using a small piece of wrinkled paper with Jack's address on it....not from Jack's postcard.
2. What does "special delivery" imply?
3. Ironically, Alma goes from doing laundry on an old washboard to living above a laundromat.
Wonderful observations: 1 and 3. I was not vareful enough to notice 1 until you mentioned it here. And as for 3: what an irony!
I didn't notice either before; maybe did Ennis want to "own" more properly Jack's address? I mean,hidding it from Alma's sight,having it as something "more of him",more personal...
I didn't notice either before; maybe did Ennis want to "own" more properly Jack's address? I mean,hidding it from Alma's sight,having it as something "more of him",more personal...
Yup. It's what Dr. Phil called creative friction.... the differences in opinions that generates creativity, that lifts both up to a higher plane. Life is paradoxical, so I think what you said must be truth ... Truth.wow..well said...opposites attract....
Did anyone else think that Lureen said "in his hat"? Also, after "What the hell happened Ennis?" it sounded like Ennis said "beer" instead of bear. (My husband even asked about that one). :c);D ;D ;D ;D
I can understand the accent , but why would Jack keep his friends' addresses in his hat? LOL!
!. Neither was invited, nor attended the other's wedding.
2. Ennis has Thanksgiving dinner with his pregnant ex-wife and her new husband...very cozy...until he goes ballistic on Alma threateniing to make her and Monroe "eat the f*&#kin floor" defending Jack's honor.
3. Excuses to wives:...
Lureen : " Why can't your friend come down here to Texas and fish?
Jack:, " The Bighorn Mts. aint in Texas, besides, I don't think his truck can make it down here..." (believable)
Alma: Your friend can't come up for a cup of coffee?
Ennis: "He's from Texas". ( unbelievable). ;D
4. Cliff jumping in the nude? WOW! 8) :*( 8) Crazy in love.
Yep, Jack could definitely make up better excuses but poor dear Ennis who had trouble putting any feelings into words was almost laughable trying to put something over on Alma. For sure.. crazy in love our Ennis was.
Some of the previous posts show that certain lines in the movie are difficult to understand. Using subtitles from the DVD helped me a lot! (However, some of the subtitles were most definitely incorrect--ie., middle-aged Jack mentioned Childress, and the subtitle showed Rutters!?)
Could NOT understand what Jack said to Ennis after he shot the elk. The subtitle clarified this, and I paraphrase: "Better git to it! Don't want Game and Fish to catch us with no elk!"
I observed this on another thread: Ennis is shirtless and about to "warsh everything (he) can reach." On a pile of logs in the background are Ennis' coat, shirt, and a clean pair of jeans! Yea! Love the way Jack and Ennis bathed, washed clothes and shaved daily--to make themselves even more tantalizing! :P
. . . Ennis ALWAYS gives the whiskey bottle a little shake before he takes a drink...even when he's upset in the bear scene.
Aintfoolin' - I noticed this too, long ago, does it from the bear scene all the way through to the last campfire with the bottle of Old Rose. Always wondered if this was just a little quirk of Heath's or if it was something he did on purpose, carrying it through all the shooting like he did. Guess I like to believe the latter, he was so dedicated and true in his character portrayal. I feel he thought up this little habit himself, maybe he'd noticed some friend or family member do this, and he decided to use it as a way to show character continuity, and Ennis's unchanging structure, over the twenty year period. JMHO
Ennis left the window to Jack's room open when he left Lightning Flat. I'm sure there some kind of symbolism here? or maybe he simply forgot to close it in light of the emotional overload when he found the shirts.And also the closet door was opened already (I'm sure by Jack's mother) If she hadn't done that, Ennis might not have even looked in there.
Ennis left the window to Jack's room open when he left Lightning Flat. I'm sure there some kind of symbolism here? or maybe he simply forgot to close it in light of the emotional overload when he found the shirts.
And also the closet door was opened already (I'm sure by Jack's mother) If she hadn't done that, Ennis might not have even looked in there.Until you mentioned this rimasworld I'd never focused on the fact that the closet door was already open. In the SS the closet has only a "faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room" - you're right, it seems Mrs. Twist would have had to left it open for a purpose.
I also felt that there was some symbolism to this -- intended or unintended. He opened the window to let the air in that he can breathe better. To leave it that way, one has the sense that someone still inhabits the empty room.
Until you mentioned this rimasworld I'd never focused on the fact that the closet door was already open. In the SS the closet has only a "faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room" - you're right, it seems Mrs. Twist would have had to left it open for a purpose.
Regarding the window, again the SS says the room was "tiny and hot" so I guess opening the window would be important, but in a more mystical view it has been pointed out that maybe Ennis left the window open so that Jack's spirit could escape and follow him (and the shirts) home. To me this is reinforced by the final view we get of Ennis leaving the house, he looks back and up at Jack's open window. Almost as one would look at a dog to try and it to follow you.
Until you mentioned this rimasworld I'd never focused on the fact that the closet door was already open. In the SS the closet has only a "faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room" - you're right, it seems Mrs. Twist would have had to left it open for a purpose.
Regarding the window, again the SS says the room was "tiny and hot" so I guess opening the window would be important, but in a more mystical view it has been pointed out that maybe Ennis left the window open so that Jack's spirit could escape and follow him (and the shirts) home. To me this is reinforced by the final view we get of Ennis leaving the house, he looks back and up at Jack's open window. Almost as one would look at a dog to try and coax it to follow you.
. . . . It's as though he wanted Jack to know he was there, he had finally came to LF for him. . .Don't forget Jack ashes (at least half of 'em) were there, somewhere, though it's not clear where.
Don't forget Jack ashes (at least half of 'em) were there, somewhere, though it's not clear where.
Alma & her purse
I'm wondering why after seeing Ennis & Jack kissing she picks up her purse and kind of fumbles around in it and then slings it over her shoulder as if getting ready to go out some where? I know she asked Ennis about cigs but maybe she had plans to go with them wherever that might be?
I have always thought that maybe she wanted to pretend she was doing her normal life . . .I concur exactly with your thoughts MPJ. And as an interesting aside, it has been said that when filming her scene Michelle, who was then pretty involved with Heath, ask Heath and Jake to stand off screen and "make believe" they were making-out :d) so that she would be able to rightly express the feeling she might have felt in this circumstance. Very convincing in all regards I'd say.
I concur exactly with your thoughts MPJ. And as an interesting aside, it has been said that when filming her scene Michelle, who was then pretty involved with Heath, ask Heath and Jake to stand off screen and "make believe" they were making-out :d) so that she would be able to rightly express the feeling she might have felt in this circumstance. Very convincing in all regards I'd say.
This is a great idea! Thankyou so much! ^f^Yes mimi I agree, although Ennis was quiet it was like that old saying Still Waters Run Deep. I think he was so full of emotions that he kept bottled inside of himself but like a loose cannon when it got to be too much for him. I think he was a lot more emotional than Jack, we see him cry and tear up a lot in the film. He also lets his anger out with his fists a few times including pounding the wall when he's so overcome with parting with Jack the first time. And when Alma confronts him in the kitchen many years later he almost loses it and punches her but I think her screaming for Monroe caused Ennis to run out. That was a very emotional scene and Heath & Michelle were excellent in it. Anyway I guess I'm rambling too :i but Ennis was so complex and every time I watch him there seems like more to figure out.
I thought it was worth noting how the tent they sleep in whenever Ennis and Jack go camping becomes more modern each time, similar to the logs to folding chairs pogression, as mentioned O0
Also, when I first saw Brokeback I got the impression that Ennis was in a way more collected and more emotionally stable than Jack, which sounds so incorrect but it was just a first impression ^-^
The I started to notice that although Jack was wild and crazy and an emotional rollercoaster, he was always comforting Ennis. It was always Jack who was reassuring the incredibly insecure Ennis. nd the funny thing was that whenever herd Jack whisper "It's okay, you're alright, etc." to Ennis, I felt as though he was comforting me. it was like he was that angel's voice telling me that everything will be okay in a wrld we both know is burning to the ground and breaking at the seams.
thanks for listening, although i know i tend to ramble... :-\\
(:* rdx that's an amazing feat of engineering to reconstruct 'em two scenes from three different languages and subtitles.
I hope your madness subsides. :c) It must have taken a lot of play/replay to get 'em lines down.
Interesting translation of "King of the Road", I wonder if there is any good translation of that phrase, being poetic and from a song.
Nuestros amigos que hablan castellano / español, por favor O0
;D :8 (:* rdx...that's funny. True enough. They sure got more than a smidgen of rhythm between them. O0 Though Ennis wouldn't appreciate that. %^% ^*) "All that rhythm can get you killed, Jack." Sure enough, it was the tire iron. :(
;D ;D ;D Very good ¡ Thanks,rdx.Yes,it's sure that "the husbands" got an enourmous sense of rhythm...of a concrete rhythm,at least ¡ ^-^
Yup, some observation "once in a while".. :s)
It has been bothering me a little bit since the first couple of viewings: what is Lashawn exactly saying 'about the rhythm' in this scene?
. . .
"Our husbands ain’t the least bit interested in dancin’. They ain’t got a smidgen a’ rhythm between ‘em."
Don't know 'bout Randle, but compared to the other offerings at this benefit, it would seem that Jack Twist was demonstratin' plenty a' rhythm.
O0
"You can kiss the bride, and if you don't I will."Always makes me think of whut it'd be like in the "bizzarro world"
"You can kiss the groom, and if you don't I will"
And speakin' of kissin' - tell me this ain't whut Jack's thinkin' right now:
And a' course much later, they're both thinkin':
Wicked BBS, do you mean this very thread? Hope so.Thus, I'm gonna repeat my question - can anyone besides me and Loreen - hear Jack saying 'Come' before kissing Ennis in SNIT? It wasn't before yesterday that I heard it.
Yes, "Come 'ere" as tpe put it here (http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=6154.msg1023706#msg1023706).It took me thousands of times to hear 'Come'ere", I wonder how many times it will take for me to here 'lie back' (:*
As far as I know, it doesn't show on (any) subtitles.
Just for your information & technocratic observations :i :
the subtitles in this scene on the North American DVD(s) [undoubtedly the most realiable source] are as follows:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.sn2.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pYNRbTPYRdCfsjBrXO-ZnJFEn58EBCdWfTUcLsjXDR9Nk3oG3Z2jPXHDhUh8QFZKH7-Ei0HKc8jIWxNKV8c7NNB7g4aEOZ1cF%2Fsnit_I.jpg&hash=20cde67b94f35fbd2a69970d91b4ebe394b769de)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.sn2.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p_d0sxbzJ0Eersij1Lqk_DLaH8ydiVYWl6wFIMljW9X1zmiTeigX6MT9NuBDS4gj5OSa2OGehkTKpOkqNW387tW95QyKe7IEy%2Fsnit_II.jpg&hash=952d9a987a40ce5848392e3d44cd49295b79711c)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.sn2.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p_d0sxbzJ0EegjT2OyVlt4yo-5SIjvZ8gZ68dpEW1VB9sQZnS2PBkiBiuJOJYvEZnT5COeyAD0eYvC66zOKHARbY6fo7LCUm1%2Fsnit_III.jpg&hash=f9bd9bb5f9b64a2acf5bdb8b56c242d909f4c131)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.sn2.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pXbIMNPtpHUTAcEiJAjiIZK0l5JfFXqqGxYk33CresmNjbS9gFcoRehLYDvu1bPe3PWLel3NMnUqopYlAn_luor-XtDQeeEgl%2Fsnit_IV.jpg&hash=230819d44774ce4bb3ff048764d9e08342e87944)
The subtitle lines are placed on the speaker's side. On the Blu-ray they are centered.
I, a non-native-speaker, must say that I do need to 'stretch my imagination' a little bit to hear Jack saying "Lie back. Come on".
He was wearing it when they were sitting down, cos you see him smoking, so I don't get it :-\\
You're right, Kitty, it is odd. As you point out, he's wearing the ring at the dinner table, not wearing it on the dance floor and then is wearing it again when he's chatting with Randall outside.
I've just checked the Call Sheets to see if they provide any clues - for instance, was the scene shot over two days - but they don't. Shooting of the interior scene took up part of one day - Wednesday, July 28, 2004, to be exact - so there would be no reason for Jake G. to take off the ring during the shooting of this scene. The exterior scene of Jack and Randall was shot the following day but by then the ring is back on. So I have no ready explanation for the mystery of the disappearing and reappearing ring.
Understandably, to utilize David Harbour's (Randall) availability, the sneering mechanics scene which shows Jack and Randall pulling out of the gas station in opposite directions, was shot on the same day as the dance scene.
I was watching the movie last night, and during the FNIT I swear I could hear Jack saying F**k me (t)
Oh the hardship ::) :P
I feel so sorry for you ::) :P
The Water Walking Jesus scene...you know how Ennis asks about the Pentecost, and Jack says he thinks "fellas like you and me march off to hell"?
Well I didn't know what the Pentecost was, so I looked it up, and I found this:
http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/pentecost.htm (http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/pentecost.htm)
Jack's interpretation seems way off...was he just trying to create an opening, to test Ennis, see what kind of reaction he got? (Let's face it, he got a good one ;))
I'm sorry but...half of that went over my head {b} ;D
Okay, when Ennis pulls Jack's jeans down and spits into his hand and, well ya know :PAbsolutely. I hear that too.
you hear him gasp, then Jack gasps, then Ennis gasps again and then I think Jack says F**k, then Ennis gasps again and Jack says "me", I'm sure it's there (^)
Absolutely. I hear that too.
I was in danger of drowning in my own drool ;D :d)
Oh MY.... Kiiiiittyyyy ;D
:i :i :i
Once again, utterly useless information; which magazine is Aguirre reading the next summer?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.sn2.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pliKytqWSOKrLN-jF5P6tVIifY2ZR1Sht0uMG_ReE7x15G7BwJacPVyN-SIeRB7haquamc7zy_d9Z4FsU_M2kXRzPw_s2aYNC%2Fprogressive.png&hash=2c43d1d32a55c821436f3869535f0a0c61869e08)
The Progressive Herder? #)
:i :i :i
Once again, utterly useless information; which magazine is Aguirre reading the next summer?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.sn2.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pliKytqWSOKrLN-jF5P6tVIifY2ZR1Sht0uMG_ReE7x15G7BwJacPVyN-SIeRB7haquamc7zy_d9Z4FsU_M2kXRzPw_s2aYNC%2Fprogressive.png&hash=2c43d1d32a55c821436f3869535f0a0c61869e08)
The Progressive Herder? #)
Okay, I found this...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F25.jpg&hash=371e3733cac83da9d0e3c3ae2bea9b700d4942f0)
This is definitely from 1963, when he first meets Jack and Ennis, and he appears to be wearing both rings :s)
Here's a question...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F001fyt09&hash=c77a54762b8338bc143daa8c9e960f9d65c6bf8c)
That truck on the far right...would it happen to be Jack's red truck? :*(
Kitty, it certainly looks like it!
In his book (page 140) "On Brokeback Mountain" Eric Patterson states that the 'placement' of the truck illustrates (Ennis's) fear: they have rented the room farthest from the motel office.
Know what I was thinking?Thansk kitty! O0
I think that the deleted scene with the hippies takes place in the same fishing trip as the deleted rifle scene (you're late/look what I brought). Jack wears his black hat in the scene in the movie, and in the script of the hippies scene it says that Jack's black hat ends up in the river and floats away. The next time we see Jack with a black hat, I think is the Texas charity dinner, and it's a Texan style, a completely different hat. I think the you're late/look what I brought scene, the rifle scene and the hippies scene all took place in the same fishing trip. They were obviously there for a few days or maybe a week, so the hippies scene could maybe be the day after they meet up? They would have a change of shirt with them, right? I know Jack wears a purple shirt at first, maybe the hippies scene is the next day, since he now wears a green shirt? :s)