Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on Mar 10, 2006, 12:26 PM
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Which is the greater sorrow?
For Ennis to have realized in the end the meaning of a lost opportunity/life with Jack?
Or for Jack to have died with the inner resignation that he and Ennis would share a sweet life together?
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That's a really hard question. Erm I reckon Ennis to have realized in the end the meaning of a lost opportunity/life with Jack because he had to live all those years mourning for him and knowing he had lost him and regretting it so much. Basically the fact that he had to live the rest of his life without his soulmate in it, and knowing that they could have been together if Ennis had allowed it. Writing this is making me cry dammit :'( Lauren x
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awww Lauren you made me cry :'( :'( :'( :'(. I agree I believe Jack always knew that Ennis loved him, the soul always knows the truth when it hears it/feels it so I would say Ennis being without Jack for the rest of his life is the most sorrow. Man, just the thought of him being without his soulmate, the person he's loved for such a large portion of his life is just heartbreaking.
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Yes, I agree that Ennis perhaps ended up with the harder lot -- living a life of regret. But Jack's sorrow and frustration must have been so unbearable... True, a hard question to decide...
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This topic is too sad! I'm sorry I made you cry AnaisStefanie! I agree with what you said :) tpe what do you think? Lauren x
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aww it's okay lauren, i cry just thinking about it. man, i just can't imagine being without a person i loved like that. just...man...it has to be the hardest thing ever. Never being able to touch them for the remander of your lifetime, must be so hard. when i think of this, i think of what was said in the book where Jack starts coming to Ennis in his dreams.
xxAnais
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I can't wait to read the book, it should be here in 3-5 days apparantly! *hugs* i've been getting upset a lot more recently and it sucks. The scene where Ennis has tears in his eyes as he's looking at the shirts. God that gets me so bad :'( it even get's my mum upset and she hasnt even seen the film! I've told her enough about it though lol. I agree, it must be so hard for Ennis to have lost the most special person in the world to him. I keep thinking of scenes I dont wanna be thinking about! I wish I could stop crying! Damn Ennis, why didn't he stay with the guy he loved?! :'( Lauren x
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Thanks balchy28 and AnaisStefanie.
You won't believe how much sleep I have lost thinking about this question. Thinking about it can bring a rock to tears.
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Which is the greater sorrow?
Having a love you know you will never have, or realizing a love too late to fulfill? Each is a heavy cross to bear.
Jack needed more, but endured with his "infidelities." He died resigned to the fact that it would not be "just like this, always." How sad to realize that you will never have your true love.
Ennis perhaps thought he could endure with infrequent meetings, but in the end was left to live with nothing but the memory and possibly regrets. His inaction was in part to protect them both from what he feared the most, the consequences of being found out. And yet in the end, this is exactly the fate he believes has befallen Jack. Twenty years wasted...
I don't think one is the greater, each is the greatest possible sorrow for themselves.
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Which is the greater sorrow?
Having a love you know you will never have, or realizing a love too late to fulfill? Each is a heavy cross to bear.
Jack needed more, but endured with his "infidelities." He died resigned to the fact that it would not be "just like this, always." How sad to realize that you will never have your true love.
Ennis perhaps thought he could endure with infrequent meetings, but in the end was left to live with nothing but the memory and possibly regrets. His inaction was in part to protect them both from what he feared the most, the consequences of being found out. And yet in the end, this is exactly the fate he believes has befallen Jack. Twenty years wasted...
I don't think one is the greater, each is the greatest possible sorrow for themselves.
Yes, perhaps they are opposite sides of the same coin.
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Which is the greater sorrow?
Having a love you know you will never have, or realizing a love too late to fulfill? Each is a heavy cross to bear.
Jack needed more, but endured with his "infidelities." He died resigned to the fact that it would not be "just like this, always." How sad to realize that you will never have your true love.
Ennis perhaps thought he could endure with infrequent meetings, but in the end was left to live with nothing but the memory and possibly regrets. His inaction was in part to protect them both from what he feared the most, the consequences of being found out. And yet in the end, this is exactly the fate he believes has befallen Jack. Twenty years wasted...
NOT JUST 20 YRS WASTED --- BUT ALSO IS LIVING HALF A LIFE REALLY LIVING??? HIS FEAR STOPPED THEM BEING HAPPY --- JACK'S LOSS HITS ME HARDEST BECAUSE OF HIM BEING OPEN TO TAKING THE RISK. I COULD NEVER HAVE KEPT TAKING THE NO'S FROM ENNIS. IT'S EASY TO SAY BUT A SHORT TIME OF REALLY LIVING ( WHICH COULD HAVE GONE ON ) OR A LIFETIME OF LIVING 2/3 WEEKS A YEAR ---- NO CONTEST.
BUT I KNOW ENNIS REALLY DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE --- BUT I COULD SHAKE HIM.
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To me, its 20 years wasted only because of Jack's death.
Ennis was willing to live with what little they had, but in the end wound up having nothing.
Jack wanted more than they had, but was not able to get it.
If the reverse happened, meaning Ennis died rather than Jack, the tragedy is not as great. Ennis was "content" with the relationship and would have died content. Jack needed more from the relationship, and with Ennis' death would still have been wanting.
"Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
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I believe Jack died knowing that Ennis loved him although they did not "live" together...they lived together in each others' hearts. What they shared was amazing even though Jack could not seem to get enough. I think Ennis wanted more but allowed his fears to control his actions. It is common for widows and widowers to die prematurely when they were so deeply in love with their partner. I believe that if Ennis never pursued another intimate relationship that he would suffer a broken heart from his loss of Jack. They were not just lovers, they were soul mates...their connection went beyond the limits of time and space. These words bring tears to my eyes. Ennis had his dreams after Jack died. A big part of Ennis died when Jack died. I am certain more than ever that I don't want to make the same decisions as Ennis. I want to live life to its fullest. Hang on everyone...I am redlining it to life! Anyone want to join me?
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I believe Jack died knowing that Ennis loved him although they did not "live" together...they lived together in each others' hearts. What they shared was amazing even though Jack could not seem to get enough. I think Ennis wanted more but allowed his fears to control his actions. It is common for widows and widowers to die prematurely when they were so deeply in love with their partner. I believe that if Ennis never pursued another intimate relationship that he would suffer a broken heart from his loss of Jack. They were not just lovers, they were soul mates...their connection went beyond the limits of time and space. These words bring tears to my eyes. Ennis had his dreams after Jack died. A big part of Ennis died when Jack died. I am certain more than ever that I don't want to make the same decisions as Ennis. I want to live life to its fullest. Hang on everyone...I am redlining it to life! Anyone want to join me?
Thanks drbill for this point of view.
As for living life to its fullest, I had thought that I was on a downward slope of always being perpetually jaded. BBM changed that.
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aww it's okay lauren, i cry just thinking about it. man, i just can't imagine being without a person i loved like that. just...man...it has to be the hardest thing ever. Never being able to touch them for the remander of your lifetime, must be so hard. when i think of this, i think of what was said in the book where Jack starts coming to Ennis in his dreams.
xxAnais
I really liked that Jack started coming to Ennis in his dreams. It wasn't consicouzs thought on Ennis' part. I took some comfort in that because, even though it was only in a dream Ennis could still get some joy from it, even though upon waking there would probably be sorrow to realize it was only a dream.
"And he would wake sometimes in grief,sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."
Sniff....
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Jack's death is the greater sorrow, because Ennis is at least physically alive. Many here have faced challenges as big as Ennis', and they prevail. There is hope and opportunity until the day that you draw your last breathe.
Ennis is tough and no quitter. He was lucky to have had a GREAT LOVE, and in the end, I think he knew it. We can never know what happens to him, but I choose to think he finds at least some satisfaction as the years pass and Jack's death is less of an open wound.
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Oh for goodness sake :'( :'( :'( *Goes tissue hunting*
I'll post later.
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Here - take my tissue. I've composed myself enough to answer.
:'( Almost
Although I have to agree that the sorrow is indeed the worst possible for each one of them - Ennis forever unable to say to Jack what he might eventually have been able to say, and Jack forever unable to have what he might one day have made real claim for..., I think Ennis is in a better place because he can reconcile his life, learn from his mistakes, take a small step toward growth as a human being. Jack cannot resolve anything because his choices were made for him by the evil people who killed him. He died, alone, unable to touch his love, unable to complete his life, or even live out his years as Ennis will, contemplating how to be a better person.
CRAP! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( I need the tissue back NOW!
-btb
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In terms of sorrow caused by lost love, I think Ennis had a greater cross to bare. Jack died knowing that Ennis loved him, even though his love was not on Jack's terms. Jack could honestly look himself in the mirror and know that he had done everything he could to make the relationship work.
Ennis on the other hand has to live with the knowledge that he was the reason that they were not together. It was noone's fault but his own. That is a terrible burden. Also, he is the one still alive, still suffering.
I think Jack's greatest suffering was his actual murder. I don't know, if anyone here has been the victim of a violent crime, but let me tell you it is very hard to look true evil in the eye. We all like to believe in the goodness in people's souls. To leave this earth at the hands of such ignorance and hatred is a horrific thing. Jack's belief in mankind will never be restored. :( :( Nancy
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this is what comes of people who listen to what the world expects of them and denied themselves what their hearts tells them! that to follow one's true calling from the heart no matter the outcome it couldn't never as bad than in being slaughtered by the world in being who they say you oughta be
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this is what comes of people who listen to what the world expects of them and denied themselves what their hearts tells them! that to follow one's true calling from the heart no matter the outcome it couldn't never as bad than in being slaughtered by the world in being who they say you oughta be
So true, frenchcda.
But you now make me think of another question: which is the greater tragedy? To deny the heart by reason of the world's condemnation? Or to be forced by the world to be what you are not?
Heart and the world. Ideally, each one reaches out to the other. We have a long way to go to attain the ideal...
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Which is the greater sorrow?
For Ennis to have realized in the end the meaning of a lost opportunity/life with Jack?
Or for Jack to have died with the inner resignation that he and Ennis would share a sweet life together?
Great question and many great responses. As you put it, tpe, they are the opposite side of the same coin. I do think the regret is a greater sorrow. At least Jack has tried.
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When he was alive, Jack had the greater sorrow because the reality of their relationship did not live up to his dreams. His sorrow while intense was shorter lived. After Jack's death, Ennis had the greater sorrow because he was unable to bring Jack's dreams to reality, had he chosen to. Ennis' sorrow would be more enduring, just think he would be in his early 60's now.
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well, their separation at the end is equally sorrowful for each of them...but when we take a step forward, according to my beliefs, Jaack has paid his dues already....he's free of his sorrow, pain, and debts on earth. But for Ennis, his remaining days will eat at him until there's no more...until that day...when they are both re-united in another life.... :'(
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I am unsure if, after death, Jack will be able to continue pondering such complex matters. Jack's life was filled with sadness and longing. Ennis's felt longing and sadness but was not in touch with it in the same way as Jack. Jack had more awareness of the psychological issues at play.
Do I not remember Jack having received a degree from an important American university? Whereas Ennis only was able to achieve a year of high school from coins in a can.
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Do I not remember Jack having received a degree from an important American university?
If you are referring to Gyllenhaal, I think he did not finish his studies at Columbia in NYC because his parents gave in and made him pursue an acting career without finishing his degree (in Eastern Philosophy/Religions I believe). If I am wrong here, I would gladly stand corrected...
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IMO the greater sorrow is for Ennis because he loved Jack and after finding the two shirts, after knowing that Jack had talked to his parents about Ennis and said to them he was going to take him to the ranch to live together(I mean Jack's parents were not stupid , they surely knew what their relationship was about), Ennis realised how much Jack loved him. But Jack has left forever and he will have to live the rest of his life keeping the same secret (his love for a man) and besides not having the opportunity of seeing that love again (which were the best moments in his existence, the ones he shared with Jack. He's gone... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I hope you understand me. It's difficult to express all my thoughts in English. Sorry :-[
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This is a hard question to answer. It was just tragic for both of them. After my first viewing my thoughts were all about Ennis. Ennis having to live with nothing but those shirts, memories and regrets. How tormenting the "what if's" must be for him. I'd picture him staring at those shirts, talking to them, holding them and just dying a little more each time.
During the next few viewings I identified with Jack's side of the relationship a lot. I know what it is to be the "idea person" and to be shut out and turned down. To express yourself and not get that in return holding on to "Maybe one day"; "Maybe this will be the time it happens". It kills you slowly. I know Jack went with other men, but he wanted Ennis. If his love wasn't deep and true he wouldn't have driven all that way year after year- it wasn't just for a coupla high altitude f's.
I agree that Jack knew Ennis loved him. Jack died without realizing his dream. Ennis has regrets, sorrow and dreams to contend with being the survivng partner. They both lived a half of a life instead of that sweet life and that in itself is tragic.
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But you now make me think of another question: which is the greater tragedy? To deny the heart by reason of the world's condemnation? Or to be forced by the world to be what you are not?
Heart and the world. Ideally, each one reaches out to the other. We have a long way to go to attain the ideal...
TPE: answer is the greater tragedy is the one we have come to bear in our hearts, it matters no more what the world plunders on us or for me the fact is that I can't undo the past and the consequences I now live with have become my tragedy, yet despite my griefs and losses, I have come to be thankfull and in return in feeling an immense gratitude for what the ignorance of others have come to influence my life, for without all their misery I would have never learned what compassion, love and forgiveness is!
Life gives you the chance to seek oneself trough experiences bad and good, the goal is to have the ability to gain awareness and hope that at the end it all was worthed, I know that trough the words I read here and trough the eyes of loneliness and strangers it makes sense in my life.
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I think you are correct Frenchcda. I think the greatest tragedy is when we choose to suffer at the hands of the world rather than taking a chance of loving another. Living life with "if" instead of "when" leads to a path of unhappiness. What is the saying, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." This is why I want to give without reservation, to love thoroughly, to receive openly and when life is over...think back about these times with bittersweet emotions...remembering all of the wonderful people I have met and come to love and feeling sad for the loves we have lost along the way. I will always look back on this adventure with joy and encouragement...knowing I will never be alone in this great big world...since I will always be surrounded by the love of those I have come to know here.
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I think you are correct Frenchcda. I think the greatest tragedy is when we choose to suffer at the hands of the world rather than taking a chance of loving another. Living life with "if" instead of "when" leads to a path of unhappiness. What is the saying, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." This is why I want to give without reservation, love thoroughly, receive openly and when life is over...think back about these times with bittersweet emotions...remembering all of the wonderful people I have met and come to love and feeling sad for the loves we have lost along the way. I will always look back on this adventure with joy and encouragement...knowing I will never be alone in this great big world...since I will always be surrounded by the love of those I have come to know here.
My ex's favorite phrase has always been, "If only." It's one of the reasons I finally left him. We have to accept the decisions we make in life and move on with them no matter how hard or wrong they may be. Ennis ultimately has the greater sorrow because he is still alive and can ponder the life he has and the life he could have had. There is a very strong part of me that believes that Ennis moves on. We all have to move forward. To remain static is to die and I just won't let myself believe that all Ennis can look forward to is a sad lonely death.
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BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present
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Oh, such a wonderful question! It brings tears to my eyes...
Soooooooooo difficult to find an answer!
But ok, here's my 2 cents: (you might not all agree with me though...)
I think that while both of them suffer immensely, I think that ultimately (if you HAVE to make a choice!), that Jack got the "short-end-of the-stick"...
You see: Up until Jack's death, they were both living "half-lives", that's true. That's a given.
Sorrowful, and heartbreaking for both.
But:
Jack dies not knowing the FULL extent of Ennis' love for him. (Hell, I wonder if Ennis himself knew that at that point in time...!) Ennis was always so "closed"...he never let his feelings show except in tiny doses...I'm sure that Jack must have wondered about so many things concerning Ennis' love for him...
While:
Ennis, at the end, finally realizes how much Jack loved him...(finds the shirts, had that awful conversation with Jack's dad which reveals to him just how much Jack had always loved him...)
So, approaching from this viewpoint, I tend to think that Ennis ended up with just that little "more" than Jack did...
And doesn't the movie end with that small sparkle of "hope" for Ennis? Ennis finally learns (the hard way) that he has to make some changes in his life/behavior in order for him to find true happiness? (That whole last scene with daughter Alma Jr.?)
That could mean that...if he wants to...or is capable of doing so...there might still be a future ahead... Maybe not one (as fulfilling or as complete as) with Jack anymore, but...(?)
For Jack, it all ends so abruptly...so dramatically. No chance at all to resolve anything... He dies young. :'(
Maybe I'm wrong. I don't really know...
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Maybe I'm wrong. I don't really know...
I don't think there is a right answer. We all have our own personal answers, buried deep inside.
Thanks.
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BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present
frenchcda
I tried to write you an email but realized it was better to respond here. My life, like yours is as lonely as Ennis. I have never felt so abandoned and adrift in my life. But no one and nothing is going to throw a lifeline to me. I don't have an Alma Jr like Ennis. In the movie and perhaps even in the story I see Alma Jr as a lifeline, one Ennis will grab onto. Well, if no one is gonna throw me a lifeline then I'm gonna have to find my own. I refuse to believe that I will die lonely and loveless even if that is the way I eventually do die. You said the word, "Hope," as long as we hope then it can be. Give up hope and you give up everything. Peace and hope to you friend.
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In addiition to the many fine observations so far, I felt the depth of Ennis' sorrow is heightened by the guilt he might bear in thinking that he was the cause of Jack's death. If Ennis had found a way to better embrace their relationship, Jack may not have sought out the other man Jack's father reveals to Ennis. I've thought that one of the many things Ennis might 'swear' to Jack at the finale would be 'if I knew your death/murder was a possibility of my reticence, things would have been different'.
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In addiition to the many fine observations so far, I felt the depth of Ennis' sorrow is heightened by the guilt he might bear in thinking that he was the cause of Jack's death. If Ennis had found a way to better embrace their relationship, Jack may not have sought out the other man Jack's father reveals to Ennis. I've thought that one of the many things Ennis might 'swear' to Jack at the finale would be 'if I knew your death/murder was a possibility of my reticence, things would have been different'.
I agree completely.
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BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present
frenchcda
I tried to write you an email but realized it was better to respond here. My life, like yours is as lonely as Ennis. I have never felt so abandoned and adrift in my life. But no one and nothing is going to throw a lifeline to me. I don't have an Alma Jr like Ennis. In the movie and perhaps even in the story I see Alma Jr as a lifeline, one Ennis will grab onto. Well, if no one is gonna throw me a lifeline then I'm gonna have to find my own. I refuse to believe that I will die lonely and loveless even if that is the way I eventually do die. You said the word, "Hope," as long as we hope then it can be. Give up hope and you give up everything. Peace and hope to you friend.
frenchcda and BBBOY, I am moved by the thoughts and feelings you share with us. Any word of consolation and assurance I can give will fall short and will only sound hollow -- this I am certain. But I can express my appreciation to both of you.
At this stage in my life, I am a little like Ennis before Jack's death (emotionally speaking, that is) -- always on the side of caution and so guarded as far as emotions go. This story has made me question whether I am really in control of myself.
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BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present
frenchcda
I tried to write you an email but realized it was better to respond here. My life, like yours is as lonely as Ennis. I have never felt so abandoned and adrift in my life. But no one and nothing is going to throw a lifeline to me. I don't have an Alma Jr like Ennis. In the movie and perhaps even in the story I see Alma Jr as a lifeline, one Ennis will grab onto. Well, if no one is gonna throw me a lifeline then I'm gonna have to find my own. I refuse to believe that I will die lonely and loveless even if that is the way I eventually do die. You said the word, "Hope," as long as we hope then it can be. Give up hope and you give up everything. Peace and hope to you friend.
frenchcda and BBBOY, I am moved by the thoughts and feelings you share with us. Any word of consolation and assurance I can give will fall short and will only sound hollow -- this I am certain. But I can express my appreciation to both of you.
At this stage in my life, I am a little like Ennis before Jack's death (emotionally speaking, that is) -- always on the side of caution and so guarded as far as emotions go. This story has made me question whether I am really in control of myself.
Please all, hold on to your hopes. I identified so much with Ennis in the second scene where he collapses, because I know at one time (and for quite some time) I felt that I felt I was nothing and nowhere. This scene made me relive those emotions. I actually felt again like the hollow shell that Ennis had become, so afraid to let any part of me show. There is hope. Today I am a happily married woman with two wonderful kids, who fulfill my life to no end. PLEASE DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE. Happiness may be right around the corner or sometimes right under our nose, if we just open ourselves up to the possibility.
I do not know anyone's circumstance and do not mean to sound trite, but my brother gave up hope and took his own life. If only he could have seen in the mirror what the rest of the world saw. And from all your exchanges and wonderful insights, I see that you are all intelligient, thoughtful and loving individuals who have much to give this world.
I do not mean to insinuate that anyone here is suicidal. I only want you to continue to have hope. I'm sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry to ramble. - Nancy
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I am deeply moved by this thread. Nancy, no need to apologize: I can feel that you really care about frenchcda and bbboy. Even though I do think that sometimes it is necessary to be able to let out your hopelessness, and to be understood and accepted. So, frenchcda and bbboy, I don't know if this helps, but I am here to read and to listen. And to think about what you have written.
For me, life waxes and wanes in cycles. And sometimes there are specific causes that start a new cycle. bbm seems to have started a new cycle for so many people (me included). Maybe Jacks death started something new for Ennis, as somebody already suggested. That is what I would want to believe. It gives him the chance to rethink his life. I also believe that Jack finally let go of Ennis during their last meeting (during the flashback). He loved him enough to let him go when he saw how Ennis was hurting inside. What am I trying to say? I think both of them, Jack when he managed to let go, Ennis, when he finally realized how much he loved Jack, were confronted with a great sorrow, but sorrow can be a healer of souls, can break you open and make you find new meaning and new life. In the end, I agree that the greatest sorrow (for us as bbm viewers) is probably that Jack will never have the possibility of starting a new cycle of life.
Peace,
Mona
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I have always felt that Ennis' situation was more tragic. Just like what others said before me, Jack has "paid his dues". But for Ennis, it is just the beginning. After the movie ended, I felt that Ennis had regrets in him, and it brings me sadness beyond compare. I don't know how I will be able to live in that condition...So that's why I think Ennis' situation was more tragic :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Ennis's could be considerd more tragic because he lived.
Jack's could be considered more tragic because he died.
Oh, had both lived or died together, it would have been more bearable.
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Dearest tpe,
I think I understand what you mean: It might have been more bearable for them and for us. But then, had Ennis died with Jack, would he ever have had the chance to realise he truly loved him? It is even clearer in the short story: What was before his finding the shirts, he himself would never have called love. But what came after was a life that he made a shrine to his love for Jack. I think this shows beautifully that life can always give you something more, even though it may be shot through with almost unbearable pain. Would it really have been better for Ennis to have died without really knowing what love was? Would it be better for anybody? Knowledge can be exquisitely painful, but Ennis has become a more complete human being through the experience of Jack's death and though that will not stop him hurting dreadfully, it is worth not having died, I pray and hope.
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True, mona.
In a sense, this was Ennis's saving grace: the knowledge that he was intensely loved. No matter what happened to Ennis after that, this knowledge would cling to him. By this alone, his life was not for nought.
And yet, with this beautiful realization comes the guilt and the horror of realizing that he could no longer make amends and respond to that love. He had ample opportunity and realized all too late.
Which is the greater horror: to die without knowing love's fulfilment, or to live with the curse of being unable to act on it? Both are too hard to contemplate. One is a lonely death; the other, a living hell.
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Oh tpe, how hard you are on us, making us face such realities. And I'm not going to shrink from them. You are right: what you describe may turn out a living hell. But then, is the last scene of the movie so unforgiving? Does it really show a living hell in store for Ennis? No redemption possible? I think this might be the reason why the whole wedding announcement was put in (which is not in the short story): to show that Ennis was capable of change, even though it might have been a tiny inkling of change only. He is going to the wedding, he cares about love in relationships. Might that be a way out of the living hell? The acknowledgement that Jack's death is changing his own life, which, incidentally might have been an even greater hell before Jack's death, before he could acknowledge love. And in the short story I also get the feeling of a redemptive strain, his dreams, his Jack-dreamworld, where he keeps going throughout the rest of his life. Not much of a life, I grant you that, but still: to have loved, to have been loved, beyond all measure and to know it, that is something...
mona
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Again, you are right, mona. The last scenes are not totally devoid of hope. And there is comfort in the knowledge of a deep love -- enough of it to spill out in one's dealings with others.
And true, Ennis did have daughters that love him. They are his support in case he may be in need of it in the future.
In this sense, the living is perhaps better off than the dead. With the quick, there is the possibility of healing and redemption. For the dead, there is no such consolation.
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You all need to stop saying such sad things, i can't bear it anymore! ~)
I didn't know that the wedding scene has this much meaning, I can't wait to watch it again later when i get me hand on it.
*o) but what happen to Francine/Jenny? All they ever talk about is Jr in the movie.
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Sorry alph.
It is sad, but it is so beautiful.
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Very tough question. Ennis was enduring pure hell on earth after losing Jack, all of which could have been avoided at several points in time had he just let himself dare to be with Jack in a day-to day relationship. so that everyday awarenes for the would be a great sorrow to bear. as far as being greater than Jack's? I think equal. as Jack died knowing he could never give all the love he had inside to Ennis the one he truly loved and the one who needed it the most.
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True, mona.
In a sense, this was Ennis's saving grace: the knowledge that he was intensely loved. No matter what happened to Ennis after that, this knowledge would cling to him. By this alone, his life was not for nought.
And yet, with this beautiful realization comes the guilt and the horror of realizing that he could no longer make amends and respond to that love. He had ample opportunity and realized all too late.
Which is the greater horror: to die without knowing love's fulfilment, or to live with the curse of being unable to act on it? Both are too hard to contemplate. One is a lonely death; the other, a living hell.
tpe, this is a truly beautiful set of statements that have brought tears to my eyes. It's a bittersweet thing, on the one hand there being the thought that Ennis has the comfort of Jack's endearing love to take him over the long years ahead, but on the flip side knowing he lost the oppurtunity to live out that love whilst Jack was still alive. Heartbreaking. I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? :-\\
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I think they are both equally painful, but when I think of Jack, I think of this.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh112%2FFroglet125%2Fbbbbm01.gif&hash=926d68b34e50965f87b6efaf43b545aca66aa7c0)
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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Very tough question. Ennis was enduring pure hell on earth after losing Jack, all of which could have been avoided at several points in time had he just let himself dare to be with Jack in a day-to day relationship. so that everyday awarenes for the would be a great sorrow to bear. as far as being greater than Jack's? I think equal. as Jack died knowing he could never give all the love he had inside to Ennis the one he truly loved and the one who needed it the most.
It can be so tough to way one against the other. I would not like to face either fate.
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tpe, this is a truly beautiful set of statements that have brought tears to my eyes. It's a bittersweet thing, on the one hand there being the thought that Ennis has the comfort of Jack's endearing love to take him over the long years ahead, but on the flip side knowing he lost the oppurtunity to live out that love whilst Jack was still alive. Heartbreaking. I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? :-\\
Thank you, bella muerte.
I sometimes try to soften the blow of Jack's fate by thinking that Jack must have known that Ennis loved him. How could he not have known? But this is counterbalanaced by the realization that even if he knew that he was loved, he went to the grave perhaps not knowing how much he was loved. When hope falters as in the case of Jack, even the knowledge of love revealed is bittersweet. One has to have hope in order to sustain a dream of love.
IMO, both of them would never go back to Brokeback Mountain. It is the Lost Ideal. It is the Dream of Love.
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I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? :-\\
IMO, both of them would never go back to Brokeback Mountain. It is the Lost Ideal. It is the Dream of Love.
I think that Ennis may not go back to Brokeback Mountain anymore, it is just too painful in my opinion. It is just like what tpe said, it's Paradise Lost. :-\\
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To me, its 20 years wasted only because of Jack's death.
Ennis was willing to live with what little they had, but in the end wound up having nothing.
Jack wanted more than they had, but was not able to get it.
If the reverse happened, meaning Ennis died rather than Jack, the tragedy is not as great. Ennis was "content" with the relationship and would have died content. Jack needed more from the relationship, and with Ennis' death would still have been wanting.
"Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
I have to disagree, I think Jack would have died inside could he never touch, hold, feel, laugh with, cry with Ennis if Ennis was the one who died. Remember that Jack missed him so bad that he could barely stand it when they were apart. Jack had to give the love inside to Ennis, being ubable to, his life would serve have no purpose. I don't think Ennis was content with his relationship, I think he was just "standing
it".
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tpe, this is a truly beautiful set of statements that have brought tears to my eyes. It's a bittersweet thing, on the one hand there being the thought that Ennis has the comfort of Jack's endearing love to take him over the long years ahead, but on the flip side knowing he lost the oppurtunity to live out that love whilst Jack was still alive. Heartbreaking. I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? :-\\
Thank you, bella muerte.
I sometimes try to soften the blow of Jack's fate by thinking that Jack must have known that Ennis loved him. How could he not have known? But this is counterbalanaced by the realization that even if he knew that he was loved, he went to the grave perhaps not knowing how much he was loved. When hope falters as in the case of Jack, even the knowledge of love revealed is bittersweet. One has to have hope in order to sustain a dream of love.
IMO, both of them would never go back to Brokeback Mountain. It is the Lost Ideal. It is the Dream of Love.
Yes, i suppose Ennis had more of a symbol of the love they shared by taking over ownership of the pair of shirts - surely knowing they had meant so much to Jack would mean more to Ennis than having to make a pilgramage back to the mountain. He had the reminder of the mountain on the postcard he bought too...it's too sad.
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The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jacks sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, hed thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jacks own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.
Proulx -- Brokeback Mountain
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The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jacks sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, hed thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jacks own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.
Proulx -- Brokeback Mountain
Yes. :\'(
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:\'(
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the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. :\'( God that whole passage gets me everytime.
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the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. :\'( God that whole passage gets me everytime.
You just had to bring that up didn't you? :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Thanks, love ya.
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I reread the story yesterday while I was waiting for the kitchen floor to dry. I read, "Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames.", and I was lost. Cried the whole time I was reading.
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I reread the story yesterday while I was waiting for the kitchen floor to dry. I read, "Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames.", and I was lost. Cried the whole time I was reading.
You know, I have always likened that trailer to a tomb. Jack lies buried in the grieving plain. And in a way, the same can be said about Ennis.
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Buried, buried alive. That's what they come to. That's why it works as a tragedy, because one of one's reactions at the end is "What a waste" or maybe Othello's "the pity of it".
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Buried, buried alive.
The dead, and the dead in spirit.
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:\'( You guys are killing me. That reminds me of something you posted a while back Thomas- the tire iron killed the both of them (paraphrasing) Ennis is the living dead.
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I am sorry, LJN, but it is hard to put it any other way.
I go back and forth between spiritual death and redemption. I do think Jack's death redeemed Ennis in a deep way. But his death also spelled a real end to Ennis's inner life. Can one be spiritually dead and redeemed at the same time? This may seem like a conundrum.
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In my POV, Jack's being dead is merely the removal of temptation to Ennis --- IF Ennis is still convinced his relationship with Jack is a bad thing. There's nothing to tell us that Ennis has ever had a change in heart. He still is his father's son and still has his father's teachings in his head. When Jack dies, amid all the sorrow this causes Ennis, there is still a relief that the relationship is over. Maybe he won't be marching off to hell. That's the only possible redemption Ennis might see.
Religiously speaking, is there true redemption in the absence of the occasion of sin? Or is true redemption in the renunciation of the sin?
(I'm saying "sin" only because that is what Ennis has been taught about homosexual activity.)
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I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread before....
It's difficult for me to single out the greater of two sorrows....Jack's unfulfilled dream of a sweet life with Ennis or Ennis having to live without the one person who truly made him happy. Although the nature of their relationship was a source of struggle for Ennis, it was clear that Jack meant more to Ennis than he wanted to admit.
Despite Ennis's inner struggle and fears regarding their relationship, he cherished the time he and Jack spent together. Jack wasn't just his lover. Jack was someone Ennis with whom could feel comfortable being himself. We don't know that Ennis ever opened up himself in the same way to anyone else. For me, Jack's death appears to seal Ennis in an emotional coffin. Death or the meeting of a new soul mate would be the only means of freeing Ennis for eventual happiness.
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I would like to point to the last scene with Alma Jr in the movie, when Ennis looks longingly out that lonely window of his trailor and asks Alma if Kurt loves her. He seems to be caring on a dialog with a ghost (Jack?) then shakes his head and mumbles yeah. Then his whole demeanor changes and he agrees to attend Alma's wedding and shares a drink with her. I think this is when he accepts his own vulnerability and lose and when those terrible walls he has built begin to crumble. I am a pollyanna, I admit it. Even with Jack gone I want to see Ennis find some kind of happiness sometime in his life.
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Which was the greater sorrow? That's hard , I think that you have to go to Ennis's guilt factors. He had issues. Did he let the guilt and shame he felt while Jack was still alive , preventing him from fully committing to Jack and denying him a real life... blind him to what could have been ? While Jack was still alive, Ennis figured he always had more time to come to his senses, but after Jack's unexpected death he had to feel responsible for it to a large degree. He was the only one who knew Jack's true desires and hopes. Therfore I think the greater sorrow is having to live with the fact that only if he'd tried harder to be with Jack more Maybe he'd be still alive, Now that Jack is gone he has no hope of even telling Jack face to face that he was sorry or make amends.This realization must have devastated Ennis with guilt...If only. 2 cents.
I bet he would have given anything for one last chance. To see him one more time.
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True, aintfoolin. Ennis had a lot of regrets, I'm sure, and had to feel guilt over denying Jack's dearest wishes.
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In my POV, Jack's being dead is merely the removal of temptation to Ennis --- IF Ennis is still convinced his relationship with Jack is a bad thing. There's nothing to tell us that Ennis has ever had a change in heart. He still is his father's son and still has his father's teachings in his head. When Jack dies, amid all the sorrow this causes Ennis, there is still a relief that the relationship is over. Maybe he won't be marching off to hell. That's the only possible redemption Ennis might see.
Religiously speaking, is there true redemption in the absence of the occasion of sin? Or is true redemption in the renunciation of the sin?
(I'm saying "sin" only because that is what Ennis has been taught about homosexual activity.)
I do think there was not that much relief in the end for Ennis. His tears -- even after 2 years of mourning -- attest to the pain that was still lodged deep in his heart. THe short story is much more explicit -- when it tells us that Ennis continues to have eortic dreams about Jack. I think that is pretty much a manifestation of "sin".
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I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread before....
It's difficult for me to single out the greater of two sorrows....Jack's unfulfilled dream of a sweet life with Ennis or Ennis having to live without the one person who truly made him happy. Although the nature of their relationship was a source of struggle for Ennis, it was clear that Jack meant more to Ennis than he wanted to admit.
Despite Ennis's inner struggle and fears regarding their relationship, he cherished the time he and Jack spent together. Jack wasn't just his lover. Jack was someone Ennis with whom could feel comfortable being himself. We don't know that Ennis ever opened up himself in the same way to anyone else. For me, Jack's death appears to seal Ennis in an emotional coffin. Death or the meeting of a new soul mate would be the only means of freeing Ennis for eventual happiness.
Yes, there indeed seems to be a finality in Ennis's fate -- a finality that was dictated by Jack's death. If Ennis did intend to remain faithful forever, then I would think that death would be his only recourse.
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I agree with tpe here that Ennis did not find releif for his "sins" after Jack's death. I choose to think that only after Jack's death did Ennis truly beleive the awareness of his love for Jack was'nt a sin after all. He became aware that this was a part of him, like an arm or a leg was missing and could barely function without it.
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I agree with tpe here that Ennis did not find releif for his "sins" after Jack's death. I choose to think that only after Jack's death did Ennis truly beleive the awareness of his love for Jack was'nt a sin after all. He became aware that this was a part of him, like an arm or a leg was missing and could barely function without it.
I think all of us have experienced some degree of regret, but not many of us probably had experienced it in the context of love and missed opportunity.
Yes, I do think regret woke Ennis up the depth of his love for Jack. It was only when he lost Jack did he come to realize and FEEL what was deep inside his heart. I cam imagine it to be both mortifying and unbearably painful.
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Hi,
Ennis was emotionally closed up when he met Jack. Jack, ignited in him something so deep he couldn't recognize it himself. Jack was his lifeline to the world, but Jack represented his fear of the world, Ennis was caught up. Ennis said to Jack "Its because of you I'm this way" What way? That line always gets to me, and when he tells jack how he can't take this anymore, what, what can't he take. Being the way he is? Loving Jack???
After all that, Ennis was still looking to be with him, waiting to meet in November. Why? What for? Then the post card came back deceased. The sorrow for me is, Jack's faith in Ennis, His love for him, and the hope that he'll go with him to Lighting Flats, then dying on a lonely road fixing a flat. That's how Jack spent the twenty years on the road looking, hoping Ennis will relent and leave with him.
There are so many aspects to this story. It's so good to have a place where I read your thoughts and express my own.
thank you
Manhattangirl
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Hi,
Ennis was emotionally closed up when he met Jack. Jack, ignited in him something so deep he couldn't recognize it himself. Jack was his lifeline to the world, but Jack represented his fear of the world, Ennis was caught up. Ennis said to Jack "Its because of you I'm this way" What way? That line always gets to me, and when he tells jack how he can't take this anymore, what, what can't he take. Being the way he is? Loving Jack???
After all that, Ennis was still looking to be with him, waiting to meet in November. Why? What for? Then the post card came back deceased. The sorrow for me is, Jack's faith in Ennis, His love for him, and the hope that he'll go with him to Lighting Flats, then dying on a lonely road fixing a flat. That's how Jack spent the twenty years on the road looking, hoping Ennis will relent and leave with him.
There are so many aspects to this story. It's so good to have a place where I read your thoughts and express my own.
thank you
Manhattangirl
Very good points, manhattangirl.
"I'm this way because of you." I think he means he's nowhere because he quit each job just to be with Jack & never realized his dream of owning a ranch. Also, Jack made him so upset because of "them other things" he come to know. This & "I can't stand it anymore Jack." - to me mean he can't stand knowing about "them other things" - Mexico - I don't think he meant he couldn't stand the relationship anymore (although it sounds that way) because he wrote to meet Jack in November. Was this the only postcard that Ennis sent? That's the only one I remember.
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Hi,
Ennis was emotionally closed up when he met Jack. Jack, ignited in him something so deep he couldn't recognize it himself. Jack was his lifeline to the world, but Jack represented his fear of the world, Ennis was caught up. Ennis said to Jack "Its because of you I'm this way" What way? That line always gets to me, and when he tells jack how he can't take this anymore, what, what can't he take. Being the way he is? Loving Jack???
After all that, Ennis was still looking to be with him, waiting to meet in November. Why? What for? Then the post card came back deceased. The sorrow for me is, Jack's faith in Ennis, His love for him, and the hope that he'll go with him to Lighting Flats, then dying on a lonely road fixing a flat. That's how Jack spent the twenty years on the road looking, hoping Ennis will relent and leave with him.
There are so many aspects to this story. It's so good to have a place where I read your thoughts and express my own.
thank you
Manhattangirl
Yes, the bitterness of Jack's end is not death -- but death without seeing his hopes realized. And yet, his love for Ennis was probably his sole comfort and companion at the moment of his death. We can seek consolation in that thought.
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Very good points, manhattangirl.
"I'm this way because of you." I think he means he's nowhere because he quit each job just to be with Jack & never realized his dream of owning a ranch. Also, Jack made him so upset because of "them other things" he come to know. This & "I can't stand it anymore Jack." - to me mean he can't stand knowing about "them other things" - Mexico - I don't think he meant he couldn't stand the relationship anymore (although it sounds that way) because he wrote to meet Jack in November. Was this the only postcard that Ennis sent? That's the only one I remember.
OT: Ennis also sent the postcard about the divorce.
The irony of it all was that Ennis couldn't see a way out when one way that presented itself long ago was to go with Jack and share a life. It is indeed ironic that he never wnated to "own" Jack, and yet he could not stand the thought of Jack beinmg with another man. Ennis is indeed very complex -- very human.
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OT: Ennis also sent the postcard about the divorce.
The irony of it all was that Ennis couldn't see a way out when one way that presented itself long ago was to go with Jack and share a life. It is indeed ironic that he never wanted to "own" Jack, and yet he could not stand the thought of Jack beinmg with another man. Ennis is indeed very complex -- very human.
thanks, tpe - I'd forgotten about that postcard. To start a life with Jack wasn't a way out for Ennis - it only meant trouble. Yes, he really let his feelings out when Jack said he'd been to Mexico - didn't want to go start a life with him, but certainly didn't want him to have any other man.
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thanks, tpe - I'd forgotten about that postcard. To start a life with Jack wasn't a way out for Ennis - it only meant trouble. Yes, he really let his feelings out when Jack said he'd been to Mexico - didn't want to go start a life with him, but certainly didn't want him to have any other man.
And we certainly shouldn't be too harsh with Ennis. Many of us can relate to this: fear of commitment, coupled with an unwillingness to let go.
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And we certainly shouldn't be too harsh with Ennis. Many of us can relate to this: fear of commitment, coupled with an unwillingness to let go.
I don't mean to be harsh on Ennis. I completely understand why he did what he did (or didn't do), especially in light of the Earl & Rich thingy. How traumatic that was for a child. I'm not sure he had a fear of commitment, but he did have a fear of publicly showing his feelings for a man, and as you say, unwilling to let go. He loved Jack too much.
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Ennis saw no way out as you stated above. Great posts. Ennis's statement " I can't stand this anymore Jack " was a statement said in desperation. Jack had just got done giving him what for, and laying down some hard truthful words to em. and he knew it was all true. Jack wanted , needed , and deserved more time together. Unable or unwilling to face a culture and closed minded society, Ennis is saying to Jack that although he loves him deeply , he was no longer strong enough to make the sacrifices he's made to be in the kind of relationship Jack wanted. He said to Jack " you forget what it's like bein broke all the time".The secrecy, quitting jobs, the fear, guilt and shame, and the complicated juggling of his life to be with Jack was taking it's toll on him. ..Yet he could not commit to a permanent life with him either. He loved Jack. Ennis knew he was'nt doing right by Jack and he knew that Jack knew it too. Jack let him have it , but to Ennis it was the ultimate painful truth in this "tug of war for" his soul...and he could'nt stand bein "nowhere "because of it. I think they needed a compromise.
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I don't mean to be harsh on Ennis. I completely understand why he did what he did (or didn't do), especially in light of the Earl & Rich thingy. How traumatic that was for a child. I'm not sure he had a fear of commitment, but he did have a fear of publicly showing his feelings for a man, and as you say, unwilling to let go. He loved Jack too much.
I know you didn't. Sorry if I implied that you did. My opening line in the previous post was part rhetorical device. :) I just found it interesting that most of us, to a lesser degree, harbor similar issues about not wanting to commit and yet not wanting to let go. Human beings like to have the best of both worlds.
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Ennis saw no way out as you stated above. Great posts. Ennis's statement " I can't stand this anymore Jack " was a statement said in desperation. Jack had just got done giving him what for, and laying down some hard truthful words to em. and he knew it was all true. Jack wanted , needed , and deserved more time together. Unable or unwilling to face a culture and closed minded society, Ennis is saying to Jack that although he loves him deeply , he was no longer strong enough to make the sacrifices he's made to be in the kind of relationship Jack wanted. He said to Jack " you forget what it's like bein broke all the time".The secrecy, quitting jobs, the fear, guilt and shame, and the complicated juggling of his life to be with Jack was taking it's toll on him. ..Yet he could not commit to a permanent life with him either. He loved Jack. Ennis knew he was'nt doing right by Jack and he knew that Jack knew it too. Jack let him have it , but to Ennis it was the ultimate painful truth in this "tug of war for" his soul...and he could'nt stand bein "nowhere "because of it. I think they needed a compromise.
Beautifully said, aintfoolin. I think Jack realized how much Ennis also suffered when he said "I can't stand this anymore Jack". I think Jack was genuinely surprised and moved. Jack probably recognized that Ennis suffered WITH him, and that at least he was his EQUAL in suffering...
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Ennis saw no way out as you stated above. Great posts. Ennis's statement " I can't stand this anymore Jack " was a statement said in desperation. Jack had just got done giving him what for, and laying down some hard truthful words to em. and he knew it was all true. Jack wanted , needed , and deserved more time together. Unable or unwilling to face a culture and closed minded society, Ennis is saying to Jack that although he loves him deeply , he was no longer strong enough to make the sacrifices he's made to be in the kind of relationship Jack wanted. He said to Jack " you forget what it's like bein broke all the time".The secrecy, quitting jobs, the fear, guilt and shame, and the complicated juggling of his life to be with Jack was taking it's toll on him. ..Yet he could not commit to a permanent life with him either. He loved Jack. Ennis knew he was'nt doing right by Jack and he knew that Jack knew it too. Jack let him have it , but to Ennis it was the ultimate painful truth in this "tug of war for" his soul...and he could'nt stand bein "nowhere "because of it. I think they needed a compromise.
:\'( That was beautifully stated aintfoolin
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Just found this thread and to answer the original questions, it's the one who lives on that will bare the burden. To me, both situations were an unspeakable pain. Character wise, I feel more sorry for Jack than Ennis because Jack was willing to do all the things on Ennis' term. As for the situation, I felt that Ennis' situation is of a greater sorrow than Jack's. Jack may have a sad life but death sort of put him out of his misery. :\'( Ennis, on the other hand, has to live the rest of his life knowing he failed Jack. It's not much of a living really when half your soul is gone. It's just an empty existence until time reunites him with Jack again.
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I think some of us do feel that because Ennis had the chance and blew it, we are more inclined to sympathize with him less in the end. As JT said, Jack was willing to do things on Ennis's terms, and we can all sympathize with what Jack went through because of this.
But as many here have said, Ennis's realization of all this coming too late made him suffer all the more in the end. And he had the rest of his life to contemplate what he had lost: a lifetime of opportunity wasted. He would not have suffered as much had he not come to this realization after the death of Jack.
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It probably wouldn't be as sad if Ennis didn't find the two shirts. It's the realization of the depth of Jack's love that makes him suffer more, IMO. He threw away his whole life it seems like.
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It probably wouldn't be as sad if Ennis didn't find the two shirts. It's the realization of the depth of Jack's love that makes him suffer more, IMO. He threw away his whole life it seems like.
I think he did feel that his life was over, in a sense. But yes, the recovery of the shirts ironically made it worse... But he must have thought that it was a blessing that he discovered and got to keep the shirts.
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What we feel is worst for him I think is different from what Ennis himself felt. I think you're right in that for Ennis, those two shirt will no doubt help him throught some tough times, but as a viewer, I think they may induce some powerful regrets at times. Still, for Ennis, I think the benefit of finding the shirts far outweighs the negative effect they may bring, even if it makes the situation much more sorrowful for the viewers.
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What we feel is worst for him I think is different from what Ennis himself felt. I think you're right in that for Ennis, those two shirt will no doubt help him throught some tough times, but as a viewer, I think they may induce some powerful regrets at times. Still, for Ennis, I think the benefit of finding the shirts far outweighs the negative effect they may bring, even if it makes the situation much more sorrowful for the viewers.
I am sure Ennis looked at the shirts with a feeling of nostalgia, love, and regret. It was a complex mix of emotions that mirrored the conflicting dreams he had at the end of the story.
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I think before answering that one would have to ask - from who's point of view - if ours than it could go either way depending on maybe your feeling for one or the other - from their point of view - I'd have to say it would be Ennis's sorrow - it lives on until he dies - but I liked what Alexander said and agree, I think Jack knew that Ennis loved him.
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I think before answering that one would have to ask - from who's point of view - if ours than it could go either way depending on maybe your feeling for one or the other - from their point of view - I'd have to say it would be Ennis's sorrow - it lives on until he dies - but I liked what Alexander said and agree, I think Jack knew that Ennis loved him.
I do think Jack knew in his heart that Ennis loved him. But Jack did realize when remembering the Dozy Embrace that that love perhaps did not go further than THAT. It is such a bittersweet thing: to die never to have known the perfection of love.
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They both were equally involved, so the sorrow was as intense for both of them, I do understand that. But it hurts more to see how Ennis' life got even lonlier, and the regret he had to live with everyday. At least Jack was put out of his suffering in wanting, even if it was by death. :\'( But that's just me..
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They both were equally involved, so the sorrow was as intense for both of them, I do understand that. But it hurts more to see how Ennis' life got even lonlier, and the regret he had to live with everyday. At least Jack was put out of his suffering in wanting, even if it was by death. :\'( But that's just me..
But to look at Jack for a moment, it must have been infinitely sad for him to realize at the moment of death that a lifelong dream will remain unfulfilled.
There is a finality to it that he must have confronted in the last few seconds of his life. If Jack was indeed killed with a tire iron, I think the sadness of his last living moments would have equaled the sadness of many lifetimes combined.
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:\'( :\'( :\'( TPE
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:\'( :\'( :\'( TPE
Either situation is too sad to contemplate. I go back and forth.
In the Buddhist sense, Jack would have suffered greatly because he died without setting loose his bonds that tie us to this world.
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:\'( :\'( :\'( TPE
What she said. :\'(
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But to look at Jack for a moment, it must have been infinitely sad for him to realize at the moment of death that a lifelong dream will remain unfulfilled.
There is a finality to it that he must have confronted in the last few seconds of his life. If Jack was indeed killed with a tire iron, I think the sadness of his last living moments would have equaled the sadness of many lifetimes combined.
What hurts me the most about that scene is when that guy slams his foot into Jack's crotch. >:( :\'(
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What hurts me the most about that scene is when that guy slams his foot into Jack's crotch. >:( :\'(
To die without dignity is akin to a thousand deaths.
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To die on the road. Isn't that a sort of ironic. He spent the last twenty years of his life on the road. Poor Jack F@#in Twist.
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To die on the road. Isn't that a sort of ironic. He spent the last twenty years of his life on the road. Poor Jack F@#in Twist.
A very interesting observation. He did live out his love and sorrows on the road. In a sense, it was a journey that never really reached its destination.
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Very interesting observation MG.
Thomas once again :\'( I heard the song Alway by Bon Jovi the other day and it reminded of your post here on 2/5- especially this line: And I know when I die, you'll be on my mind And I'll love you - Always :\'(
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Very interesting observation MG.
Thomas once again :\'( I heard the song Alway by Bon Jovi the other day and it reminded of your post here on 2/5- especially this line: And I know when I die, you'll be on my mind And I'll love you - Always :\'(
:\'(
I think it IS so hard to die the way Jack did (if he did indeed die this way). It's not really the manner of the presumed death, but more because he died with a void in his heart.
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The more I come to understand Jack, the more saddness I tend to feel for him. His entire life consisted of one rejection after another.His father,his father-in-law,his wife.Men in his community,his rodeo peers,school falculty. Then ultimately. Sadly. The object of his affection.....Ennis.
Some say he got what he deserved from his wife. Fact is,she was slowly losing respect for him because the men in the communty were dissing Jack in her presense.
What bothers me the most is when I understand how much Jack surrendered of himself. I am amazed there was anything remaining in him to keep on going. He completely emptied himself of all self-respect and dignity for want of love.
The scene by the lake ,smoking weed and drinking Old Rose with Ennis.........Utterly crushed me.
Here he was in the very presense of his soulmate.An individual who supposingly loved him more then anyone else in the world.His desires just within his grasp, yet ,in reality, it couldn't possibly have been more distant. BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO DENY WHO HE WAS....... to the one person in the entire world who knew him well.Yearned to be with him.Made sacrifices for him.So by all logical reasoning should have accepted him......... Unconditionally.
What a huge contradiction !!!
His tortured heart had to be stressed to the limit. Strangling at the seams as if in the grip of a slowly tightented garrote . Insisting emphatically,deperately,he make an attempt to reach out to Ennis, Cry out his love AND pain for attempting to bear a load which must have been an agonizing burden. RELIEF RELIEF RELIEF !!!
Still......He listened without protesting.
Suffered silently as Ennis spoke of putting the blocks to another woman. Then,the clincher. The mask of denial. The very mask which Ennis bore manifested itself upon Jack's face. He became to Ennis what he surmised Ennis wished him to be. Said he had a "thing going with the wife of a rancher"
Thus,Jack became an aberration to himself.
His heart wouldn't speak of its torment though because his love for Ennis was more compelling. There must have been one last glimmer of hope remaining.So,breaking through the resistance of a finger in the dike, it managed a small leak "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it"
Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a tsunami and brought him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.
Very beautiful post, HiAltShag. Very beautiful and sad. I felt the same as you did: I was moved by his abject surrender to Ennis. And we can only share his anguish when the dam finally breaks. Your metaphor of the Tsunami is very apt. It engulfs Ennis, but at the same time, it wastes itself away. Most especially at that point when he was breaking, he was suffering all the more. His anger directed at Ennis also hurt him -- we should not forget that.
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Beautiful post Hialtshag :\'(
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The more I come to understand Jack, the more saddness I tend to feel for him. His entire life consisted of one rejection after another.His father,his father-in-law,his wife.Men in his community,his rodeo peers,school falculty. Then ultimately. Sadly. The object of his affection.....Ennis.
Some say he got what he deserved from his wife. Fact is,she was slowly losing respect for him because the men in the communty were dissing Jack in her presense.
What bothers me the most is when I understand how much Jack surrendered of himself. I am amazed there was anything remaining in him to keep on going. He completely emptied himself of all self-respect and dignity for want of love.
The scene by the lake ,smoking weed and drinking Old Rose with Ennis.........Utterly crushed me.
Here he was in the very presense of his soulmate.An individual who supposingly loved him more then anyone else in the world.His desires just within his grasp, yet ,in reality, it couldn't possibly have been more distant. BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO DENY WHO HE WAS....... to the one person in the entire world who knew him well.Yearned to be with him.Made sacrifices for him.So by all logical reasoning should have accepted him......... Unconditionally.
What a huge contradiction !!!
His tortured heart had to be stressed to the limit. Strangling at the seams as if in the grip of a slowly tightented garrote . Insisting emphatically,deperately,he make an attempt to reach out to Ennis, Cry out his love AND pain for attempting to bear a load which must have been an agonizing burden. RELIEF RELIEF RELIEF !!!
Still......He listened without protesting.
Suffered silently as Ennis spoke of putting the blocks to another woman. Then,the clincher. The mask of denial. The very mask which Ennis bore manifested itself upon Jack's face. He became to Ennis what he surmised Ennis wished him to be. Said he had a "thing going with the wife of a rancher"
Thus,Jack became an aberration to himself.
His heart wouldn't speak of its torment though because his love for Ennis was more compelling. There must have been one last glimmer of hope remaining.So,breaking through the resistance of a finger in the dike, it managed a small leak "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it"
Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a crushing tsunami. Sent him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.
The most beautiful thing I've read about Jack. Jack is my hero. He suffered the world that Ennis try to hide from, he suffered at the hands of Ennis's constant hunger for him, and the rejection that comes after, and yet the love still flowed from him to Ennis. To me Jack was love.
Thank you HiAltShag
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The more I come to understand Jack, the more saddness I tend to feel for him. His entire life consisted of one rejection after another.His father,his father-in-law,his wife.Men in his community,his rodeo peers,school falculty. Then ultimately. Sadly. The object of his affection.....Ennis.
Some say he got what he deserved from his wife. Fact is,she was slowly losing respect for him because the men in the communty were dissing Jack in her presense.
What bothers me the most is when I understand how much Jack surrendered of himself. I am amazed there was anything remaining in him to keep on going. He completely emptied himself of all self-respect and dignity for want of love.
The scene by the lake ,smoking weed and drinking Old Rose with Ennis.........Utterly crushed me.
Here he was in the very presense of his soulmate.An individual who supposingly loved him more then anyone else in the world.His desires just within his grasp, yet ,in reality, it couldn't possibly have been more distant. BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO DENY WHO HE WAS....... to the one person in the entire world who knew him well.Yearned to be with him.Made sacrifices for him.So by all logical reasoning should have accepted him......... Unconditionally.
What a huge contradiction !!!
His tortured heart had to be stressed to the limit. Strangling at the seams as if in the grip of a slowly tightented garrote . Insisting emphatically,deperately,he make an attempt to reach out to Ennis, Cry out his love AND pain for attempting to bear a load which must have been an agonizing burden. RELIEF RELIEF RELIEF !!!
Still......He listened without protesting.
Suffered silently as Ennis spoke of putting the blocks to another woman. Then,the clincher. The mask of denial. The very mask which Ennis bore manifested itself upon Jack's face. He became to Ennis what he surmised Ennis wished him to be. Said he had a "thing going with the wife of a rancher"
Thus,Jack became an aberration to himself.
His heart wouldn't speak of its torment though because his love for Ennis was more compelling. There must have been one last glimmer of hope remaining.So,breaking through the resistance of a finger in the dike, it managed a small leak "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it"
Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a crushing tsunami. Sent him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.
Very beautifully said, HiAlt. Such a heart-wrenching life! :\'( :\'(
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Well said again Hialtshag. :) I completely agree about relating to Jack- I'm a Jack with a bit of Ennis in me.
We carry within ourselves the essential characteristics of both characters. So when we cry for Jack and Ennis......We also cry for ourselves. beautifully stated.
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Ennis and Jack are our Yin and Yang alter ego's.
We carry within ourselves the essential characteristics of both characters. So when we cry for Jack and Ennis......We also cry for ourselves.
This is so true. We feel their distinct tug and pull inside each and every one of us...
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Actually I'm not a sir but a Ms. Nasty :-* We have the benefit of being outsiders looking in on their relationship and seeing what could be different for them. We relate to one or both because we are projecting our own experiences into their relationship. They both carried an emptiness inside of them.
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We have the benefit of being outsiders looking in on their relationship and seeing what could be different for them. We relate to one or both because we are projecting our own experiences into their relationship. They both carried an emptiness inside of them.
And yet they are ready receptacles by which we have come to recognize better our own individual experiences. That is why their sorrows speak strongly to each of us. Even our choice of which sorrow is the greater mirrors our own sorrows and how we have come to live by/with them.
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I think we all agree that both men had their share of sorrows. Which, do you think, handled his sorrow better? Personally, I think it was Jack. He seemed to be much more resiilient. He could pick himself up and get on with things. When Ennis wouldn't go off with him ( after the divorce scene), Jack drove on to Mexico, saddened, of course, but determined. When he went back to Aguirre the next summer to see if Ennis had come for work, he left and continued rodeoing. I'm not saying he was happy, but he got on with life. Ennis, on the other hand, seemed to just do the minimum to keep himself and his family alive. He met his obligations, but joy? I don't think there was any real joy in his life, and certainly no ambition or goals. I see Jack as a much stronger person in the long run, although Ennis comes off as the stronger in the early days.
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I think we all agree that both men had their share of sorrows. Which, do you think, handled his sorrow better? Personally, I think it was Jack. He seemed to be much more resiilient. He could pick himself up and get on with things. When Ennis wouldn't go off with him ( after the divorce scene), Jack drove on to Mexico, saddened, of course, but determined. When he went back to Aguirre the next summer to see if Ennis had come for work, he left and continued rodeoing. I'm not saying he was happy, but he got on with life. Ennis, on the other hand, seemed to just do the minimum to keep himself and his family alive. He met his obligations, but joy? I don't think there was any real joy in his life, and certainly no ambition or goals. I see Jack as a much stronger person in the long run, although Ennis comes off as the stronger in the early days.
I certainly think Jack was more deliberate and decisive in handling his sorrows. But most of all, he understood how things stood in the greater scheme of things.
The most beautiful example of this is perhaps the part of the short story dealing with the Dozy embrace. In that remembrance, there was no hate, and there were certainly no regrets. Only an abiding sadness and an acceptance of things as they were. Such was the way he handled his love for Ennis and the associated suffering this entailed. I think the reason for this was that he accepted Ennis as who he is -- in a way that Ennis never really matched while Jack was alive.
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I think we all agree that both men had their share of sorrows. Which, do you think, handled his sorrow better? Personally, I think it was Jack. He seemed to be much more resiilient. He could pick himself up and get on with things. When Ennis wouldn't go off with him ( after the divorce scene), Jack drove on to Mexico, saddened, of course, but determined. When he went back to Aguirre the next summer to see if Ennis had come for work, he left and continued rodeoing. I'm not saying he was happy, but he got on with life. Ennis, on the other hand, seemed to just do the minimum to keep himself and his family alive. He met his obligations, but joy? I don't think there was any real joy in his life, and certainly no ambition or goals. I see Jack as a much stronger person in the long run, although Ennis comes off as the stronger in the early days.
Beautiful!
Jack knew instinctively what was eating at Ennis. And if you remember the last line in ss, of the "dozy embrace", "Let be, Let be",
it reminded me of the Beatles song, "Let it Be".
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I certainly think Jack was more deliberate and decisive in handling his sorrows. But most of all, he understood how things stood in the greater scheme of things.
The most beautiful example of this is perhaps the part of the short story dealing with the Dozy embrace. In that remembrance, there was no hate, and there were certainly no regrets. Only an abiding sadness and an acceptance of things as they were. Such was the way he handled his love for Ennis and the associated suffering this entailed. I think the reason for this was that he accepted Ennis as who he is -- in a way that Ennis never really matched while Jack was alive.
Oh God here I go again :\'(
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The most beautiful thing I've read about Jack. Jack is my hero. He suffered the world that Ennis try to hide from, he suffered at the hands of Ennis's constant hunger for him, and the rejection that comes after, and yet the love still flowed from him to Ennis. To me Jack was love.
Thank you HiAltShag
OMG. Yeah, what she said. Those were beautiful posts. And I'm a Jack girl through and through so you've got me :\'(
Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a crushing tsunami. Sent him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.
This was heartbreakingly beautiful, as was the entire post. And so spot on. Also:
We carry within ourselves the essential characteristics of both characters. So when we cry for Jack and Ennis......We also cry for ourselves.
Yep.
And manhattangirl, I agree: Jack is love.
I think during the years they were together, Jack suffered more because he was so aware of and in tuned to his feelings. Ennis buried feelings and denied himself a lot so he wasn't forced to feel it the same way. Until Jack died. And I feel for him because he denied that love for all those years while it was right there available to him. And didn't understand it until it was gone. And then he had to live with not only that loss but the knowledge that he had given the chance away all along.
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Thanks FlwrChild:
In the ss and the film, Jack was the one that hit Ennis with a dose of reality, like in the final confrontation. Isn't it "queer" that Jack was the only one that could make Ennis emotionally and physically react. When he wasn't with Jack, what a sad and lonely existance he lived. Just my thoughts.
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The one thing which strikes me the most awe-inspiring is when someone has the capability to love another enough to step aside and let go.Even when your heart may be breaking and every fiber of your emotional being is putting up a desparate struggle against your more reliable inner guidance systems capacity, to shift through past experiance and tell you exactly what is best.
The greater the love, the greater the hardship in letting go. The greater the struggle, the greater the sorrow; and yet -- ironically -- the love goes deeper.
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Jack had suffered all his life cos a lots of reasons, but Ennis, not wanting the "sweet life" with him was his biggest sorrow. Ennis also wasn't a fortune child, since he lost his parents, but realising how deep Jack's love was, how strong his wish for a "sweet life" was, and having no opportunity to give his love back to Jack was his biggest sorrow.
IMO both Jack and Ennis suffered, but above the sorrow, Ennis also knew that HE was the main culprit for their lost chances and who had denied himself and Jack a real happiness and a "sweet life". This cognition was an additional burden for Ennis, so I believe that in the end he suffered more than Jack. Moreover, Jack always had a little bit of hope in him. Ennis had no opportunity for hope -Jack was already dead! :\'(
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I was looking for HiAltShag's original post, but cannot find it. I think he/she said everything perfectly. Would love to hear more of your insights on all of BBM.
I feel that Ennis had the greater sorrow; to know of Jack's perfect love, but to know that it's too late.
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I agree, the closet scene shows it all, Ennis realizing of Jack's love and admitting he loved Jack but it's too late.
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I think that both of them suffered a great sorrow during half their lives,but with some little differences:Jack suffered for not getting his dreams,the suffering for the not obtention.Ennis suffered for not being able to do these Jack's dreams as his also,the suffering for the not liberation.And of course,speaking in terms of time's passing,Ennis remained at the end with the greatest sorrow of all; the sorrow of what it could have been and that he had avoided to obtain,to really "be".
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I think that both of them suffered a great sorrow during half their lives,but with some little differences:Jack suffered for not getting his dreams,the suffering for the not obtention.Ennis suffered for not being able to do these Jack's dreams as his also,the suffering for the not liberation.And of course,speaking in terms of time's passing,Ennis remained at the end with the greatest sorrow of all; the sorrow of what it could have been and that he had avoided to obtain,to really "be".
You're right here. Ennis suffered together with Jack, both for the same reason - their love, and both for not being able to have a sweet life. But Ennis continued to suffer and his pain was deepened for the definite loss of their dreams, for which he almost certainly felt guilty. :(
When he holds empty scentless shirts I always see Jack in them , so sprightly, so fresh, provocative, the last day on Brokeback. And I deeply feel for both of them. One young man who died so sensessly and the other who lost the only person he was in love with. :\'(
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It's really hard to quantitatively measure one sorrow against another.
To die or to live in sorrow -- one can't be sure which one is harder. At least in death, you have some peace. But at least in life, you have some hope.
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It's really hard to quantitatively measure one sorrow against another.
To die or to live in sorrow -- one can't be sure which one is harder. At least in death, you have some peace. But at least in life, you have some hope.
There's a reasoning in your POV, but speaking of their relationship, Ennis has no hope left - Jack died! That is hopeless. If we want to give Ennis another chance for love, then it would be like you say.
... I don't know. It is just that his loss is much bigger than any hope and new relationship could bring to him. Even I adore Jack, but I think Ennis is the one who will pay a higer price in the terms of suffering.
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There's a reasoning in your POV, but speaking of their relationship, Ennis has no hope left - Jack died! That is hopeless. If we want to give Ennis another chance for love, then it would be like you say.
... I don't know. It is just that his loss is much bigger than any hope and new relationship could bring to him. Even I adore Jack, but I think Ennis is the one who will pay a higer price in the terms of suffering.
But he had the hope given by love. His love for Jack lives in his renewed love for his daughter. That is more than enough reason to live.
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But he had the hope given by love. His love for Jack lives in his renewed love for his daughter. That is more than enough reason to live.
This is one point where I differ from many other Brokies. I just don't see it. Ennis' girls were there before and he took care of them in his own way. Maybe he's gonna be a better father now, or spend more time with Mrs. twist, or recognize his love for Jack and treasure it... he can do ALL of this things, but the main reason, main feeling, the man who was his spritus movens, his love, his reason for living, man who changed him and who could make him crazy and horny(sorry) and everything - IS GONE FOREVER! I see no hope, even I have to admit that Ennis is coping very well -cos he can't change it, so he'd stand it. But I only see the enormous lost... OMG, PBS is attacking. I am :\'( :\'( :\'(... sorry!
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This is one point where I differ from many other Brokies. I just don't see it. Ennis' girls were there before and he took care of them in his own way. Maybe he's gonna be a better father now, or spend more time with Mrs. twist, or recognize his love for Jack and treasure it... he can do ALL of this things, but the main reason, main feeling, the man who was his spritus movens, his love, his reason for living, man who changed him and who could make him crazy and horny(sorry) and everything - IS GONE FOREVER! I see no hope, even I have to admit that Ennis is coping very well -cos he can't change it, so he'd stand it. But I only see the enormous lost... OMG, PBS is attacking. I am :\'( :\'( :\'(... sorry!
But he never gave them the true love they deserved. He always found work a convenient excuse to live apart from them. The fact that he was willing to give up his work to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding signals a significant shift that was only possible because of Jack's love. I think that that in itself is a certain sign of hope.
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But he never gave them the true love they deserved. He always found work a convenient excuse to live apart from them. The fact that he was willing to give up his work to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding signals a significant shift that was only possible because of Jack's love. I think that that in itself is a certain sign of hope.
I am not saying that you're wrong tpe! :) It is just me!It is just this story which found the way to each one's most sensible place! :(
In fact when you say it in this way, I can see it too - even without Jack, Ennis has a reason to live- and to live much better then before. But in my mind there's always a mixture of SS and the movie. And SS didn't give us any hope. In fact he was forced to live with his daughter cos he lost his job and had no place to stay. Poor Ennis and my dear Jack! :\'(
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It's really hard to quantitatively measure one sorrow against another.
To die or to live in sorrow -- one can't be sure which one is harder. At least in death, you have some peace. But at least in life, you have some hope.
But he had the hope given by love. His love for Jack lives in his renewed love for his daughter. That is more than enough reason to live.
I agree and I disagree at the same time...Yes,it's true,Ennis "learned" somehow what is love by means of the memory of his love for Jack and this was re born in his love for Jr.But having to live with the unbearable sorrow of not having anymore the root,reason and cause of this love,it's a too hard burden to stand during all a life.
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I agree and I disagree at the same time...Yes,it's true,Ennis "learned" somehow what is love by means of the memory of his love for Jack and this was re born in his love for Jr.But having to live with the unbearable sorrow of not having anymore the root,reason and cause of this love,it's a too hard burden to stand during all a life.
This is my point exactly! :\'(
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I like to think that because he came to realize the great love that Jack had for him; that he found a reason to live each day in honor of Jack. I do believe that he went back to BBM & LF, although I hate that he didn't get to take any of Jack's ashes to BB.
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I like to think that because he came to realize the great love that Jack had for him; that he found a reason to live each day in honor of Jack. I do believe that he went back to BBM & LF, although I hate that he didn't get to take any of Jack's ashes to BB.
Thank you,Anita; I love your point here Ą :) Living feeling this love in him and also living by learning of past mistakes-for example,being closer to his daughter from that moment onwards-is a beautiful way of honor Jack.Even if the sorrow's burden kept being inside him the rest of his life... :\'(
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I am not saying that you're wrong tpe! :) It is just me!It is just this story which found the way to each one's most sensible place! :(
In fact when you say it in this way, I can see it too - even without Jack, Ennis has a reason to live- and to live much better then before. But in my mind there's always a mixture of SS and the movie. And SS didn't give us any hope. In fact he was forced to live with his daughter cos he lost his job and had no place to stay. Poor Ennis and my dear Jack! :\'(
Yes, I admit that the ss is darker in this regard.
But looking at it in the light of the movie, there is certainly an edge of hope in the end -- a possibility of living a life more perfectly, because one no longer fears to love.
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I agree and I disagree at the same time...Yes,it's true,Ennis "learned" somehow what is love by means of the memory of his love for Jack and this was re born in his love for Jr.But having to live with the unbearable sorrow of not having anymore the root,reason and cause of this love,it's a too hard burden to stand during all a life.
But this is exactly my point: because of that sorrow, he has finally learned to love and not be afraid to show it. For just that, all the sorrow in the world is worth bearing.
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I like to think that because he came to realize the great love that Jack had for him; that he found a reason to live each day in honor of Jack. I do believe that he went back to BBM & LF, although I hate that he didn't get to take any of Jack's ashes to BB.
And it is more than reason enough...
Had Ennis ended up entirely alone in the end, it would have been pointless. But he had his daughters, and he and they would benefit from this newfound capacity.
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Even if we agree with Ennis' hope in the end, Ennis' sorrow still surpases Jack's IMO. That supposable hope can not heal his sorrow, his yearning for his lover, his immense regret for loosing Jack and for refusing "sweet life" so many times.
I don't mitigate Jack's pain as I feel that character much more than I feel Ennis, but at the end - Ennis was the one who was paying the price. With interest rate too!
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Even if we agree with Ennis' hope in the end, Ennis' sorrow still surpases Jack's IMO. That supposable hope can not heal his sorrow, his yearning for his lover, his immense regret for loosing Jack and for refusing "sweet life" so many times.
I don't mitigate Jack's pain as I feel that character much more than I feel Ennis, but at the end - Ennis was the one who was paying the price. With interest rate too!
I guess for me: so long as there is hope, no sorrow is too great to bear. And since Jack died without really realizing such hope, then his is possibly the greater sorrow -- death made sure that there was to be no reprieve.
Debatable, of course...
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I guess for me: so long as there is hope, no sorrow is too great to bear. And since Jack died without really realizing such hope, then his is possibly the greater sorrow -- death made sure that there was to be no reprieve.
Debatable, of course...
:) OK, this is also one thing where we agree to disagree! ::)
I love Jack more, but I sympathise with Ennis more. Jack agreed to Ennis' terms of maintaining their relationship. He was sad, he became bitter, he suffered, but he had hope. He died with that hope. (I think that in his dying moment it was Ennis on his mind.) :\'(
Ennis is alone, knowing that Jack died sad and bitter, and maybe he even suspects that Jack wanted to move on. Ennis is alone, without a job, in the shaky trailer, with nothing but memories and regrets of what could have be if he was brave to make only one step more. And what is his hope? His capability to admit that he had loved and he had been loved, but successfully scr**ed it up? ??? I don't see it! Cos Ennis' destiny is the saddest part of BBM - wheather it's SS or the movie.
IMO, of course! :)
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:) OK, this is also one thing where we agree to disagree! ::)
I love Jack more, but I sympathise with Ennis more. Jack agreed to Ennis' terms of maintaining their relationship. He was sad, he became bitter, he suffered, but he had hope. He died with that hope. (I think that in his dying moment it was Ennis on his mind.) :\'(
Ennis is alone, knowing that Jack died sad and bitter, and maybe he even suspects that Jack wanted to move on. Ennis is alone, without a job, in the shaky trailer, with nothing but memories and regrets of what could have be if he was brave to make only one step more. And what is his hope? His capability to admit that he had loved and he had been loved, but successfully scr**ed it up? ??? I don't see it! Cos Ennis' destiny is the saddest part of BBM - wheather it's SS or the movie.
IMO, of course! :)
That's fine. :)
But as far as the sweet life with Ennis was concerned, I think Jack had given up. In this important aspect, there was no hope prior to his death.
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That's fine. :)
But as far as the sweet life with Ennis was concerned, I think Jack had given up. In this important aspect, there was no hope prior to his death.
Had Jack really given up? I don't know. It is one aspect I am not comfortable with, but it could be possible. Even so, the hope was not dead, cos Ennis was alive.
I somehow believe that as long as someone lives, there's hope. It's only the death which can destroy the last piece of hope. That's what happened when Jack died.
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Had Jack really given up? I don't know. It is one aspect I am not comfortable with, but it could be possible. Even so, the hope was not dead, cos Ennis was alive.
I somehow believe that as long as someone lives, there's hope. It's only the death which can destroy the last piece of hope. That's what happened when Jack died.
He had given up hope, but not love. Again, I base this on the "Let be, let be" quote from AP. I interpreted this as a sign of moving on when it came to the sweet life.
AS for hope and death, I believe that hope (as with love) goes beyond death. Incidentally, I also think that this is at the heart of people's ideas of an afterlife -- that faith, hope, and love conquer death.
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He had given up hope, but not love. Again, I base this on the "Let be, let be" quote from AP. I interpreted this as a sign of moving on when it came to the sweet life.
AS for hope and death, I believe that hope (as with love) goes beyond death. Incidentally, I also think that this is at the heart of people's ideas of an afterlife -- that faith, hope, and love conquer death.
Uh! We are really distant here... %&) We just see it from the different angles, (like that phantom photo :) )!
If nothing else, Ennis would suffer much longer than Jack! :(
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Both of them suffered for half their life the impossibility of really being themselves;the difference is that Jack found the end of this suffering in death and,somehow,Ennis found it in life,as a kind of penitence.
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Both of them suffered for half their life the impossibility of really being themselves;the difference is that Jack found the end of this suffering in death and,somehow,Ennis found it in life,as a kind of penitence.
Hm... this is not a bad approach to the problem! And who knows? Maybe Jack's soul is still suffering until waiting for Ennis' soul! :\'(
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Yes,indeed they were two suffering souls,until the moment they could meet again; each one of them in a different world... :\'(
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Oh my gosh, all of these POV have merit to me. They all capture different angles of the love and loss that both men experienced.
To me, during the time that he lived, Jack had the deeper sorrow. He knew that what he felt was love and as much as he may have known that Ennis loved him, he also saw that Ennis would never take the leap to make a life with him and had to live with the scraps of the sweet life that he was always able to see for them in his mind's eye. Ennis, on the other hand, had built his life on the theory that what couldn't be fixed had to be stood and in keeping with this idea created a wall around himself that allowed him to avoid facing those deeper feelings and acknowledging them. There are pains that you can get so used to you almost don't even feel them anymore. You develop a numb barrier to the pain. Ennis kept his head down for so many years that except for the times he spent with Jack, he never even allowed himself to contemplate any other possibilities.
Once Jack was gone and Ennis' heart was burst open with the discovery of the shirts, his became the greater sorrow. Because Jack is finally at peace, whatever he may have felt in life, and Ennis has to endure without him, knowing at last what their love was all about and knowing that every chance he had to do anything about it has passed. He has learned valuable lessons and is applying them to his relationship with his children, which is in itself a gift, but side by side with the nourishment his heart gets from knowing how deeply he was loved is the regret and loss that can never fully dissipate as long as he is alive.
And that is why I'm somewhere between the people who think he was happy at the end of BBM and the people who think he was miserable. I think that he was damned to walk the line between the two for the rest of his life because the knowledge of the love brings at the same time the happiness and the devastation that he can't help feeling when he thinks about Jack.
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If I agree that Jack suffered knowing how much he loved Ennis, but Ennis would never accept their sweet life together, then Ennis must've suffered even more knowing that Jack loved him, but it was just him - Ennis who refuse that love in a way.
My point is that Jack was miserable for having Ennis's love, but not him as near as he wanted and not often as he wanted. And the very same, if not worse was happening to Ennis - he had love, he was the one responsible for rejecting that love, and he knows that all the chances are gone. Both of them are in the situation where they see love, but at the same time no positive outcome. And why would he feel any happiness now? I don't see that middle line - I see him sad, lonely, but strong as he always was, finding some virtual comfort (like we here on the forum) in his dreams and in Jack's shirt.
Besides that, I still think that my Jack had the hope all his life. Ennis was denied that hope in the end, but Jack definitely had it. Otherwise, he'd have given up long ago.
MHO of course.... ???
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You give good opinions. Keep sharing them. ^f^
I think we probably see these characters in very similar ways. My perceprion of their sorrow or suffering is just a little different in that I think it's a bit of a sliding scale. I agree that once he realizes what he had and what he lost, Ennis carries the greater burden. Not the least because he has to carry it alone and for longer. Jack's burden was only carried for 20 years, Ennis' will continue for as long as he's alive.
During those 20 years though, I can't help feeling that Jack's sorrow was a little deeper, just because his understanding of his own love for Ennis (and what it meant to be denied the life they could have had) was deeper. Ennis never allowed himself to even imagine that a life together was possible. Jack not only believed it, I think he could see it in his mind's own eye, practically taste the possibilities every time he met up with Ennis. Especially after the divorce when he flew so quickly to Wyoming to start that life he thought was finally upon them. To have so much love and try so hard to give it to someone who, for all that they care about you, can't quite find a way to meet you in the middle can tear at your heart one piece at a time, believe me.
Nevertheless, from the moment Ennis receives that postcard on, he will have to carry the suffering for both of them. And that is indeed a heavy burden, especially when he must bear it alone without even the reprieve of the occasional weekend in the mountains to stoke the love he suffers for.
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You give good opinions. Keep sharing them. ^f^
I think we probably see these characters in very similar ways. My perceprion of their sorrow or suffering is just a little different in that I think it's a bit of a sliding scale. I agree that once he realizes what he had and what he lost, Ennis carries the greater burden. Not the least because he has to carry it alone and for longer. Jack's burden was only carried for 20 years, Ennis' will continue for as long as he's alive.
During those 20 years though, I can't help feeling that Jack's sorrow was a little deeper, just because his understanding of his own love for Ennis (and what it meant to be denied the life they could have had) was deeper. Ennis never allowed himself to even imagine that a life together was possible. Jack not only believed it, I think he could see it in his mind's own eye, practically taste the possibilities every time he met up with Ennis. Especially after the divorce when he flew so quickly to Wyoming to start that life he thought was finally upon them. To have so much love and try so hard to give it to someone who, for all that they care about you, can't quite find a way to meet you in the middle can tear at your heart one piece at a time, believe me.
Nevertheless, from the moment Ennis receives that postcard on, he will have to carry the suffering for both of them. And that is indeed a heavy burden, especially when he must bear it alone without even the reprieve of the occasional weekend in the mountains to stoke the love he suffers for.
Thanks FC!
This bold part made me believe that Jack's sorrow was really huge, and as you said -possibly bigger that Eniss's. And you put it as beautifully as always. :)
Still we mustn't forget Ennis's "I can't stand this any more Jack!" Those words speak volume, coz they show how he was just standing something he believed he couldn't fix for 20 long years, and it WAS hard for him. He suffered also a big deal!
It is Jack's cognition, his awareness how close they were to the most beautiful dream and his inability to make it real, for no good reason except of long inherited fear in Ennis, made Jack's sorrow unbearable indeed, still all this doesn't exclude his hope I think.
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I still wonder atwehich is the greater sorrow: to survie knowing the full extent of the other's love, but realizing it too late... or to die knowing you were loved to a point, but never really knowing that the love ran deeper.
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Either one is heartbreaking to think on.
And loreen, I agree about Jack's hope. I don't think it was ever extinguished.
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I still wonder atwehich is the greater sorrow: to survie knowing the full extent of the other's love, but realizing it too late... or to die knowing you were loved to a point, but never really knowing that the love ran deeper.
Great points,Thomas,Barb and Loreen and all of you are right in your own explanations IMO.The main point is that it's difficult to choose who could have suffered the most,because human feelings can't be described,or measured,or compared:only FELT...
But I would like to see things from Ennis point of view or situation,because if it's hard to ask and receive always a "no" as an answer,I wouldn't say that it's littler sorrow to say "no" with mind and mouth when your heart wants to shout"yes".And maybe isn't this what did happen to Ennis during all their relationship?... :-\\
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The main point is that it's difficult to choose who could have suffered the most,because human feelings can't be described,or measured,or compared:only FELT...
Well put. I think that's exactly the key.
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You give good opinions. Keep sharing them. ^f^
I think we probably see these characters in very similar ways. My perceprion of their sorrow or suffering is just a little different in that I think it's a bit of a sliding scale. I agree that once he realizes what he had and what he lost, Ennis carries the greater burden. Not the least because he has to carry it alone and for longer. Jack's burden was only carried for 20 years, Ennis' will continue for as long as he's alive.
During those 20 years though, I can't help feeling that Jack's sorrow was a little deeper, just because his understanding of his own love for Ennis (and what it meant to be denied the life they could have had) was deeper. Ennis never allowed himself to even imagine that a life together was possible. Jack not only believed it, I think he could see it in his mind's own eye, practically taste the possibilities every time he met up with Ennis. Especially after the divorce when he flew so quickly to Wyoming to start that life he thought was finally upon them. To have so much love and try so hard to give it to someone who, for all that they care about you, can't quite find a way to meet you in the middle can tear at your heart one piece at a time, believe me.
Nevertheless, from the moment Ennis receives that postcard on, he will have to carry the suffering for both of them. And that is indeed a heavy burden, especially when he must bear it alone without even the reprieve of the occasional weekend in the mountains to stoke the love he suffers for.
Very good post!
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Thank you. :^^)
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Wow, you all constantly amaze me. I just found this, and it's a great question.
I agree with all the different points of views here, ::) but here is my own take on the sorrow.
It is true that Jack suffered greatly for the love unrequited, the sweet life so close he could taste it, every once in a while every year, but never for long, never enough, going on for twenty years.
It is also true that Ennis suffered a lot to find the love of his life and embraced it, only to have it snatched away in an instant, reading that postcard, and to know the depth of that love, regretting every moment for the past twenty years when he could have said yes, and said no. If walking away from Jack that one summer in '63 was enough to make him keel over in the alley, losing Jack must have been all the harder, in the closet, knowing what they could have shared.
I really don't know which one is greater, but it seems to me Jack's suffering was more pure with little joy. And even the joy they shared only led to more sorrow with each parting.
On the other hand, Ennis suffered for another twenty to thirty years afterwards, knowing exactly what Jack suffered in his love unrequited, and his own love lost. And the only joy for Ennis was the knowledge of the depth of the love Jack felt for him all those years. Again, his joy is also his sorrow, the deeper that he was loved, the greater the loss and the sorrow.
I really cannot say which sorrow is greater, but I can relate to Ennis more, and so I feel his sorrow greater, not because it is, but because it feels so to me.
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Wow, you all constantly amaze me. I just found this, and it's a great question.
I agree with all the different points of views here, ::) but here is my own take on the sorrow.
It is true that Jack suffered greatly for the love unrequited, the sweet life so close he could taste it, every once in a while every year, but never for long, never enough, going on for twenty years.
It is also true that Ennis suffered a lot to find the love of his life and embraced it, only to have it snatched away in an instant, reading that postcard, and to know the depth of that love, regretting every moment for the past twenty years when he could have said yes, and said no. If walking away from Jack that one summer in '63 was enough to make him keel over in the alley, losing Jack must have been all the harder, in the closet, knowing what they could have shared.
I really don't know which one is greater, but it seems to me Jack's suffering was more pure with little joy. And even the joy they shared only led to more sorrow with each parting.
On the other hand, Ennis suffered for another twenty to thirty years afterwards, knowing exactly what Jack suffered in his love unrequited, and his own love lost. And the only joy for Ennis was the knowledge of the depth of the love Jack felt for him all those years. Again, his joy is also his sorrow, the deeper that he was loved, the greater the loss and the sorrow.
I really cannot say which sorrow is greater, but I can relate to Ennis more, and so I feel his sorrow greater, not because it is, but because it feels so to me.
I already wrote a while ago that I also think so - even (unlike you) I love Jack more, I think that Ennis was the one who was condemned to a lifetime pain and suffered much more.
Jack did and tried all to persuade Ennis to be with him. His words: "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it!" were cutting my heart like a sharp knife in the worst stage of my PSB. He suffered a big deal, that's for sure.
It is impossible to accurately compare their pain during the time Jack was alive... it can be either way...I can't say for sure :s)
I agree on everything you said about Ennis's pain (especially the bold part). When I look things through myself and if I put myself in Ennis's shoes, I know that I would've felt so great sorrow that I wouldn't be able to survive - being aware of 20 years of my stubbornness, be aware of Jack's pain and love, and that all the chances are gone, and that I'll never be able to say "sorry"... I think that only Ennis's stoicism could surpass this awful situation and make him find a way to endure - with the help of shirts and dreams.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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Either one is heartbreaking to think on.
And loreen, I agree about Jack's hope. I don't think it was ever extinguished.
Great points,Thomas,Barb and Loreen and all of you are right in your own explanations IMO.The main point is that it's difficult to choose who could have suffered the most,because human feelings can't be described,or measured,or compared:only FELT...
But I would like to see things from Ennis point of view or situation,because if it's hard to ask and receive always a "no" as an answer,I wouldn't say that it's littler sorrow to say "no" with mind and mouth when your heart wants to shout"yes".And maybe isn't this what did happen to Ennis during all their relationship?... :-\\
Wow, you all constantly amaze me. I just found this, and it's a great question.
I agree with all the different points of views here, ::) but here is my own take on the sorrow.
It is true that Jack suffered greatly for the love unrequited, the sweet life so close he could taste it, every once in a while every year, but never for long, never enough, going on for twenty years.
It is also true that Ennis suffered a lot to find the love of his life and embraced it, only to have it snatched away in an instant, reading that postcard, and to know the depth of that love, regretting every moment for the past twenty years when he could have said yes, and said no. If walking away from Jack that one summer in '63 was enough to make him keel over in the alley, losing Jack must have been all the harder, in the closet, knowing what they could have shared.
I really don't know which one is greater, but it seems to me Jack's suffering was more pure with little joy. And even the joy they shared only led to more sorrow with each parting.
On the other hand, Ennis suffered for another twenty to thirty years afterwards, knowing exactly what Jack suffered in his love unrequited, and his own love lost. And the only joy for Ennis was the knowledge of the depth of the love Jack felt for him all those years. Again, his joy is also his sorrow, the deeper that he was loved, the greater the loss and the sorrow.
I really cannot say which sorrow is greater, but I can relate to Ennis more, and so I feel his sorrow greater, not because it is, but because it feels so to me.
It's been so many years after the movie came out, and I still have a heard time answring this question!
Perhaps it is not a fair question to ask? Perhaps both are so different and so painful, in their own unique way?
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I already wrote a while ago that I also think so - even (unlike you) I love Jack more, I think that Ennis was the one who was condemned to a lifetime pain and suffered much more.
Jack did and tried all to persuade Ennis to be with him. His words: "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it!" were cutting my heart like a sharp knife in the worst stage of my PSB. He suffered a big deal, that's for sure.
It is impossible to accurately compare their pain during the time Jack was alive... it can be either way...I can't say for sure :s)
I agree on everything you said about Ennis's pain (especially the bold part). When I look things through myself and if I put myself in Ennis's shoes, I know that I would've felt so great sorrow that I wouldn't be able to survive - being aware of 20 years of my stubbornness, be aware of Jack's pain and love, and that all the chances are gone, and that I'll never be able to say "sorry"... I think that only Ennis's stoicism could surpass this awful situation and make him find a way to endure - with the help of shirts and dreams.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
In a way, I know what you mean. Besides, death has a certain comfort, in the sense that it lifts us out of mundane pain. In the case of Jack, perhaps a life without Ennis was not worth living. So then with Ennis: a life without Jack was pain without the comfort of death.
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It's been so many years after the movie came out, and I still have a heard time answring this question!
Perhaps it is not a fair question to ask? Perhaps both are so different and so painful, in their own unique way?
In a way, I know what you mean. Besides, death has a certain comfort, in the sense that it lifts us out of mundane pain. In the case of Jack, perhaps a life without Ennis was not worth living. So then with Ennis: a life without Jack was pain without the comfort of death.
I couldn't agree with you more. That sums it up perfectly.
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It's been so many years after the movie came out, and I still have a heard time answring this question!
Perhaps it is not a fair question to ask? Perhaps both are so different and so painful, in their own unique way?
Yeah, it's not a fair question to ask, it's not fair for our boys. Everyone carry a cross the exact size they can hold. For every human being their sorrows and problems are the biggest one. No one can meassure the deep of the sadness except the one who suffer it. We see little kids dying in pain and still sometimes they seem stronger than that rough tough man who cries like baby because he lost his job. We are so different and we suffer in such an unique way that its impossible to know who was more devastated, Ennis or Jack. Maybe you feel that it was Ennis or even Jack, but maybe they were stronger than you...I mean, someone people cry and shiver when they see a needle, so had Ennis had a blood test, theyd think that Ennis had suffered the most...But other people laugh at those things and have not problems with needles, so for them Ennis had not suffered a bit. See? We can NOT know who suffered the most, not even if we were able to live the same as they did, because we are not Ennis and Jack, and they are not us, we have different feelings, even if we agree in things and have the same POV about life. So its only Ennis who knows if hes really afraid or not of needles and, if he is, if hell be able to overcome the fear and not, if it's a big deal or not.
Everyone lives sad experiences in very different ways. You see in funerals people like Aguirre crying, and sweet people like Cassie or Junior being cold and quiet, when everybody should expect the contrary. No one can know what Ennis and Jack felt inside. No one can put themselves in their shoes, because no human being can feel like the other one does. We can empathize but it doesnt mean that we have the capacity to feel and to know what those other people feel inside. I think that many of us have been in situations where a person say to another Oh, Im so sorry, Ive gone through the same, I know how you feel, and then the other person replies angrily No, you dont have idea of how I feel, even if those two people have gone through the same pain...because we are unique individuals with different characteristics and perceptions.
Its not fair for Jack to say that it was Ennis who suffered the most. Its not fair for Ennis to say that it was Jack. You can relate to Ennis or to Jack but it doesnt give you the key to really know how much they were suffering. I mean, Im a Jacks girl so I might say that Jack suffered the most, at least in life, only because I relate to him and I think I know him well. Yeah, if I were Jack Id have suffered a lot, but if I were Jack in the divorce scene Id have been mad at Ennis and maybe too much hurt to see him again. Ah, but Jack, oh Jack, he was not mad, just extremely sad and hurting, and still he kept seeing Ennis. Thats a proof that no matter how much I can relate to one of the boys, I dont know what he was really feeling inside, what made him act in a way or another, the same way no one can read a mind. Human beings are a deep ocean of mystery, very complex and labyrinthine. If it was really possible to read us and decide what is the degree of our suffering, then psychologists, philosophers and psychiatrists wouldnt exist.
How can someone meassure objectively something that is the most subjective thing ever? How can you honestly sit in front of you computer and dare to say which human being in pain suffered more than the other? Pain, sadness are not like sugar or wine. You cant meassure it or divide it in litres or pounds. And for me, just for me, trying to do it seems so totally unfair.
Again, who suffers the most? The kid who is being tortured or his mother who is forced to see it? Not fair to ask that. Not fair.
Jack suffered too much and maybe he was able to see that. Ennis suffered too much and again maybe he was able to see that. But something tells me that they both didnt think that they suffered more than the other one, and they certainly thought that what they had was worth the pain. Sure theyd do it all over again. For me, Jacks pain is about so much more than a broken dream and the ghost of a sweet life. And for me Ennis pain is sure about much more than the impossibilty to do now what he didnt want/couldnt do when Jack lived.
The only thing I know is that Ennis and Jack suffered way too much than what Id be able to stand.
In a way, I know what you mean. Besides, death has a certain comfort, in the sense that it lifts us out of mundane pain. In the case of Jack, perhaps a life without Ennis was not worth living. So then with Ennis: a life without Jack was pain without the comfort of death.
This gave me shivers. :\'( :\'( :\'( So true, Thomas. Thank you so much.
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Tammy, that's just beautiful. :\'( :ghug:
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Tammy,very right and fair words... ^f^ I repeat that it's difficult to measure,because human feelings are not something measurable in weight or lenght as some tangible objects.We could say that dying without having reached one's main wish being alive is the same that keep on being alive without having reached this same wish and without the opportunity of reaching it anymore until one's own death.what a difference this makes?...
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In a way, I know what you mean. Besides, death has a certain comfort, in the sense that it lifts us out of mundane pain. In the case of Jack, perhaps a life without Ennis was not worth living. So then with Ennis: a life without Jack was pain without the comfort of death.
Wow...that hurts, but is so true! :\'(
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Yeah, it's not a fair question to ask, it's not fair for our boys. Everyone carry a cross the exact size they can hold. For every human being their sorrows and problems are the biggest one. No one can meassure the deep of the sadness except the one who suffer it. We see little kids dying in pain and still sometimes they seem stronger than that rough tough man who cries like baby because he lost his job. We are so different and we suffer in such an unique way that it’s impossible to know who was more devastated, Ennis or Jack. Maybe you feel that it was Ennis or even Jack, but maybe they were stronger than you...I mean, someone people cry and shiver when they see a needle, so had Ennis had a blood test, they’d think that Ennis had suffered the most...But other people laugh at those things and have not problems with needles, so for them Ennis had not suffered a bit. See? We can NOT know who suffered the most, not even if we were able to live the same as they did, because we are not Ennis and Jack, and they are not us, we have different feelings, even if we agree in things and have the same POV about life. So it’s only Ennis who knows if he’s really afraid or not of needles and, if he is, if he’ll be able to overcome the fear and not, if it's a big deal or not.
Everyone lives sad experiences in very different ways. You see in funerals people like Aguirre crying, and sweet people like Cassie or Junior being cold and quiet, when everybody should expect the contrary. No one can know what Ennis and Jack felt inside. No one can put themselves in their shoes, because no human being can feel like the other one does. We can empathize but it doesn’t mean that we have the capacity to feel and to know what those other people feel inside. I think that many of us have been in situations where a person say to another “Oh, I’m so sorry, I’ve gone through the same, I know how you feel”, and then the other person replies angrily “No, you don’t have idea of how I feel”, even if those two people have gone through the same pain...because we are unique individuals with different characteristics and perceptions.
It’s not fair for Jack to say that it was Ennis who suffered the most. It’s not fair for Ennis to say that it was Jack. You can relate to Ennis or to Jack but it doesn’t give you the key to really know how much they were suffering. I mean, I’m a Jack’s girl so I might say that Jack suffered the most, at least in life, only because I relate to him and I think I “know” him well. Yeah, if I were Jack I’d have suffered a lot, but if I were Jack in the divorce scene I’d have been mad at Ennis and maybe too much hurt to see him again. Ah, but Jack, oh Jack, he was not mad, just extremely sad and hurting, and still he kept seeing Ennis. That’s a proof that no matter how much I can relate to one of the boys, I don’t know what he was really feeling inside, what made him act in a way or another, the same way no one can read a mind. Human beings are a deep ocean of mystery, very complex and labyrinthine. If it was really possible to read us and decide what is the degree of our suffering, then psychologists, philosophers and psychiatrists wouldn’t exist.
How can someone meassure objectively something that is the most subjective thing ever? How can you honestly sit in front of you computer and dare to say which human being in pain suffered more than the other? Pain, sadness are not like sugar or wine. You can’t meassure it or divide it in litres or pounds. And for me, just for me, trying to do it seems so totally unfair.
Again, who suffers the most? The kid who is being tortured or his mother who is forced to see it? Not fair to ask that. Not fair.
Jack suffered too much and maybe he was able to see that. Ennis suffered too much and again maybe he was able to see that. But something tells me that they both didn’t think that they suffered more than the other one, and they certainly thought that what they had was worth the pain. Sure they’d do it all over again. For me, Jack’s pain is about so much more than a broken dream and the ghost of a sweet life. And for me Ennis pain is sure about much more than the impossibilty to do now what he didn’t want/couldn’t do when Jack lived.
The only thing I know is that Ennis and Jack suffered way too much than what I’d be able to stand.
This gave me shivers. :\'( :\'( :\'( So true, Thomas. Thank you so much.
Hi babe! ^f^
As much as I agree with you in some points, I'd like to add a few words here.
Your main point of the post is very true - every human being has it's special, different way of understanding this reality -its happiness, pain, love, desires.... everything. The same was with our boys.
Now about the other things:
When you talk about needles - it is the fear, not the suffer. This could be compared up to the point, but not completely. Coz one can suffer for only a while, until the needle is out, but one can suffer a lifetime and the pain of loving someone is never out.
About crying in the funeral - I have seen many people actually acting in the funeral, and people really hurt kept silent and had no obvious sign of suffer. So, maybe Aguirre is just acting (as a figure of speech).
I still don't think that the question is not fair. This question reflect our opinion as many others where we agreed or disagreed with others. I have seen a thread in other forum: "Who love who more?" People were talking about their feelings and about their opinion and that was just fine. On ennisjack forum this question is discussed under (IMO) a little better title: "Whose love speak to you more?" That means that we, the members can express our opinion and feelings for our boys and whose love we found more deep and genuine. And that's fine with me too. We all speak through our experience and our POV.
In my mind the same way is here - we expressed our opinion through ourselves, and there's no right or wrong answer.
Like you, I also said that it is not easy to decide whose pain was greater during their lives, and that is because they were so different as characters, their mistakes, their wishes, background and all was very different. So was their love AND so was their suffering.
Still, I expressed my opinion when I said that "if I was in Ennis's shoes", I would feel devastated all my life for not being able for 20 years to open my heart completely and spare myself and my only love the pain.
I love Jack, I adore Jack, but the thing that hurt me the most was Ennis's life from the moment he found the shirts when his brown eyes opened wide and the cognition of 20 years old truth entered his lonely heart. For me, that was the ultimate pain of all - to be guilty for losing everything and not be able to retrieve a tiny part of that loss. Even not be able to say to the person, who was tortured so many years - "I am sorry". That's why (IMHO) Ennis suffered more, ... well at least longer.
We all put ourselves in their shoes and then we see what would be the toughest for us. That's a fair discussion. For me the worst thing would be to lose everything and to be responsible in a way for that. It is only Ennis's stoicism that made him survive and to go on in the shaky trailer, 2 blooded shirts and vivid dreams about Jack.
Jack died! My dearest Jack died, but believing in God and believing that crossing the line of this reality we find the absolute peace, I can say that he's placid now, waiting patiently to the other half of his soul, Ennis, to complete him!
I hope that you understand my point, even if you don't agree! ;)
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Thanks Tammy and loreen. Thanks everyone.
In a way, we each approach this qustion in the light of how we view death and redemption. Can there be redemption after death? Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?
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Thanks Tammy and loreen. Thanks everyone.
In a way, we each approach this qustion in the light of how we view death and redemption. Can there be redemption after death? Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?
%&) I just wrote this long post and now you're giving me more job to do. ;D
And I will do it gladly, but later! :c)
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Dear Loreen, I wont come to this thread again, because it makes me feel tremendously sad, but since you quoted my post I have to answer you before leave. ^f^
Sorry if my needles metaphor was not ok, but its difficult for a not English speaker to express complicate ideas. It was not my intention to compare the pain of a needle with the pain of losing someone, but to show how our POVs change about Ennis blood test if we are afraid of needles or not. I mean, how you can judge a fact depending on how it affects you, which is not objective at all.
About crying in the funeral, you just confirmed what I was trying to say...You dont know my Aguirre, the person of my example, and still you say that maybe he was acting...How do you know that? Are you him? Only because Aguirre is homophobic it means that he has not feelings and is unable to cry in an funeral for someone he loved? And I was not saying that those silent Junior or Cassie didnt feel pain, but trying to illustrate how we can not read people and their suffering because of their reactions and behavior.
I cant believe that people really think that they know who loved the most. Or even whose love spoke the most....Are they Ennis? Are they Jack? NO!! So then, how can they know what was Jack or Ennis feeling inside? They can talk based on their own experiences, but their experiences and POV's are not the same as our boys. Our boys are not us, they are unique individuals, as we all are, so its so unfair to try and affirm that someone loved the most when you are not that person. Oh yeah, you can base your opinion on things our boys did....but most of time we dont act how we are really feeling (the funeral metaphor again..), so someone can say that Jack loved the most because he drove 14 hours when he received the postcard about Ennis divorce, and Ennis sent him away and still he kept seeing Ennis. And Ennis was so hard in that scene...not even offering a glass of water to Jack. BUT then it was Jack who slept with other men and not Ennis who was faithful all his life, so people would say that it was Ennis who loved the most. Thats so wrong. People doesnt know what Jack and Ennis were feeling inside to act like that. People who hate lovers being unfaithful surely cant understand Jack and why he needed Mexico and Randall. I hate when people is unfaithful, and still I dont judge Jack, because I am NOT him, so I don NOT know what kind of hell he went through all those years.
I think you said here what I was trying to explain: We all speak through our experience and our POV. Yeah, thats the key. We speak based on our experiences and POVs, and thats why we can NOT say who suffered the most or who loved the most. Our POVs are not absolute truths, our POVs are not what Ennis and Jack felt inside, we are NOT Ennis and Jack, and our experiences can be similar but not the same, because I am not a cowboy, living 40 years ago in a rural area of WY, totally in love with a man called Ennis or Jack. So no matter how much my experiences are akin to theirs, itll never be the same situation or experience or life or feeling. Ill never be Jack or Ennis so I can not really know what they were feeling.
Again you said it here:
Still, I expressed my opinion when I said that "if I was in Ennis's shoes", I would feel devastated all my life for not being able for 20 years to open my heart completely and spare myself and my only love the pain.
If you were in Ennis shoes. But as I said in my post if you were in Ennis shoes, if you were in that situation youd still be Loreen, not Ennis, so you can not know what he felt in that moment. You say that YOUd feel devastated, and thats the point, babe: YOUd feel this or that way, but you are not Ennis.
For me, FOR ME only, its so unfair for Jack and his 20 years of suffering to say that Ennis suffered the most. And, of course, vice versa. :-\\ :-\\ How can we meassure the hurt? Jacks suffering was about so much more than a broken dream. Only he knew the depth of his pain.
You say that Jack died but now is in peace waiting for Ennis...How do you know that? Again its only based on your experiences and beliefs, because youre a Catholic woman, just like me, but there are lots of brokies here (Keren, Koolkat, etc) who dont believe in God, so for them Jack wasted his life and now there is not another chance to live with Ennis or to rest in peace....See? If you believe in God, Jack is ok waiting for Ennis so then Ennis suffered the most, but if you dont believe in God, then Ennis is the only one ok (even if hes suffering the hell in earth) because hes still alive. It all changes depending on what we believe in, and thats not objective, thats NOT the truth, its only our version, what wed feel in that situation. But never the reality, never what our boys really felt.
Do you know that in another thread people said that Ennis felt, now that Jack was dead, liberated in a way and in peace, because he now knew that Jack loved him but he had not to deal with quitting jobs and lies and the fear? I strongly disagree with that, but it shows how no one can know how much Ennis (or Jack) suffered, how it all depends on our vision of things; the death, for example...And our POV's and opinions are NOT absolute truths, so for me it's unfair with someone says "this man loved or suffered the most". Are we that person to really know what he felt? Not even Ennis knew what they had was love till he found the shirts, so if that person didn't know how he really felt, then how can we know it? That makes not sense.
Damn...sorry for the rambling...I know I have not right to be this hard, and I know that everyone can say what they want here and everywhere. I respect everyone POV, thats for sure. And sure I wont bother anyone here again, because I wont read this thread again. Makes me mad, makes me cry. :-\\ :-\\ When I left the theater all those times I saw BBM in 2006 I never thought not even for a moment that one of our boys suffered or loved more than the other one. Im a Jacks girl, and still Ive always said that Ennis loved and suffered as much as him. For me they both suffered with the same intensity and loved with the same strength. Its only that their pain was different, just like it was their way of expressing love. I asked in my previous post who suffered the most: The kid who is being tortured or his mother who is forced to see it? For me they both suffered way too much to be able to stand it, but they pain were absolutely different, just like Ennis and Jacks pain, just different and unique.
I think that if our boys could speak they'd ask us who we think we are to judge their pain and suffering....I almost can hear Ennis saying that we have not right to do that. It's so Ennis. Like he said to Alma..."you don't know nothing about it". :\'( :\'( :\'(
Annie P, said that Jack dying and Ennis living alone was the only way BBM could end, Ennisd never say yes to the sweet life and Jackd never leave Ennis....so the only way they both could find an exit, the only way the story could end was with Jack dead and Ennis living his life with dreams of Jack. Maybe Annie thought that it was the best for our boys, so theyd stop hurting. So maybe there is not greatest sorrow there, just the only way things could end. I dont know. I feel so sad now.... :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Tammy,very right and fair words... ^f^ I repeat that it's difficult to measure,because human feelings are not something measurable in weight or lenght as some tangible objects.We could say that dying without having reached one's main wish being alive is the same that keep on being alive without having reached this same wish and without the opportunity of reaching it anymore until one's own death.what a difference this makes?...
Thank you, Ali. You're so right "what difference it makes?"... :\'( :\'(
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Thanks Tammy and loreen. Thanks everyone.
In a way, we each approach this qustion in the light of how we view death and redemption. Can there be redemption after death? Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?
This reminds me of Tony's thread on redemption and love.
This may be off topic, but in a sense, the last scene of Ennis, facing the closet with tears in his eyes, touching the two shirts reverently, and stroking the postcard with his thumb tenderly, saying "Jack, I swear." represents to me the covenant of redemption, to always remember, to do his best to take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback, like he wanted. Does it have to be a life of pain? I don't think so. I think it was a life of misery and pain in the shortstory, leading to the prologue where Ennis in his fifties and sixties living in poverty and for the moments with Jack in his dreams. But in the movie, we saw another side of that life, though still in poverty in material things, but rich in joy of love from his children and probably also in his relationship with Jack's Ma. Ennis was drinking less and smiling more.
I think the redemption comes in the form of living up to the full potential of love, not just the one-shot romantic love, but love in all manners. I cannot imagine that Ennis, the pragmatic intelligent man that Heath portrayed, would fall into a self-pitying spiral of miserable existence. The sorrow of his lost love would only spur him on to hold on to the love he still has. The pain of missed opportunities would only remind him to seize the day and live life to the fullest. As much as Ennis tended to live in the past, reliving those horrible images when he was nine years old, Ennis was also a practical man who lived in the present, for the moment, planning for the future. That's what he and Jack did together on Brokeback, forgetting the past, the cold world, and lived in the moment. Given the chance, I am sure Ennis would embrace the joy of life with both hands and hold on for as long as he could ride it.
Just my two cents worth.
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I love your belief in Ennis's journey of transformation.
Thank you, Lance.
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loreen, Tammy, and lance -- thanks again for your wonderful thoughts. It is heard to react at the moment here -- an embarassment of riches, I would say.
Only -- Tammy, I am sorry that this thread pains you too much. This was never the intention.
And lance -- I tend to agree with you, especially with the second paragraph. "The sorrow of his lost love would only spur him on to hold on to the love he still has. " -- most certainly, redemption goes beyond any pain of personal loss.
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Indeed this is not an easy topic to revisit just by its very nature. Tammy, big :ghug: to you and to all. We are all of course here because our hearts were so impacted by both their enormous love and their enormous loss. And much like Ennis as he moves on with the rest of his life, often we can't look at one without looking at the other.
I completely agree that no one can actually determine whose was the greater sorrow, but I find the discussion enriching because it offers so many insights into how all of us look at life in general as well as relate to the characters specifically, based on our own life experience.
Andrew, as you know I tend to look at the end of the story (both SS and the movie) a little differently. I agree that Ennis has received and embraced a wonderful gift, and that he can find comfort in the knowledge of Jack's love. I also believe that he probably opened his eyes to the love available to him right there in his children and made the effort to be a better father to them. Still, at the end of the day he sits in a lonely trailer fingering the only thing left of the love of his life, which he never allowed himself to fully hold onto until it was too late, and waits for the dreams that will come and determine how he feels throughout the next day. This obviously colors my perceptions of how much he is or isn't suffering after Jack dies. Just as the things in Jack that remind me of things in me color my perceptions of how much Jack suffered while he was alive. And my religious beliefs color my thoughts about each of their eventual fates.
Thank you all so much for sharing your thoughts and your feelings about this topic. It has certainly given me the opportunity to look at a lot of issues from a lot of angles. :ghug:
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:ghug: Tammy FlwrChild Everyone :ghug:
It was made clear to me early on that I see the movie's ending differently, and I think it has to do with the personality of Ennis, of me.
I recently found a wonderful documentary of Dick Proenneke's time in Alaska, alone, in a cabin, living with the one thing he loved, nature, the wilderness, the animals he loved. He was happy. He lived there for thirty years until he was 80 years old.
People see Ennis living alone in his trailer and say he is miserable. I see Ennis living with his two shirts, close to his daughters, communicating with the most important woman in Jack's life, and say he is happy.
Is the glass half full, or half empty?
It is certain half of something. Because Jack isn't there.
There's no reins on this one. And I love this place just the same. :c) ^f^
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Andrew,your posts are always wisely written,and in this sense,your theory of the glass half full or half empty illustrates very well this.We can declare that Ennis could be something very similar to be "happy" because he has managed to live with his memories of the past and with some new ways of being learned from these past experiences.Even we could say that he has found a new mother,somebody who cares for him,in Jack's Ma figure and that he has learn to be closer to his daughters.They say that no past's experiences can be really useful if we aren't able to learn from them in our present times.And Ennis did,paying a great and painful bill for learn,but he did...
Nevertheless,the basis of all this,of this possibility of changing his life and begin from zero-as we say here-,comes from a tragic and irremediable situation;the death of the person he has loved the most in his life.Can we really replace the possible reality of having been happy,of having been HIMSELF,for the fact of having two shirts as an indelible souvenir of this now impossible reality?Can we really replace all the moments they had could live together and that he mainly denied,for the fact of being closer to his daughters,as a substitutive for this person?Can we really replace all the beautiful souvenirs he has now,of these lived moments,of what has been,for the bitter reality of remembering what could have been and never was,and never will be?.Maybe I see the bottle half empty,but it's a poor remains,IMO.
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Well, IMO (and this is in a way a reply to Baby Tammy) if we withdraw this thread, we could do it with dozens of others too. Coz in most of them (which regards the movie itself) we give our opinion on things. Some can be wrong (e.g. if I said that Jack never loved Ennis ^*() ), but most of them are not right or wrong. I give my opinion about their pain and suffer, and I know they both suffered, and I know that there's no measuring instrument to measure the pain.
This topic is different from others only because we discussed their pain. In another we're measuring their love - "Whose love speak to you more?". We just give our opinion, we dissect the scenes, quotes and all. In the thread "we gotta stick this out" we are talking about what Ennis thought and did Jack feel guilty in that moment etc.... but again it is what we think - and we are not Ennis or Jack. And we love them both!
In discussion here, I changed my mind about some meaning in the movie many times - sometimes by myself but mostly coz the influence of other members. It is the journey, and I tend to believe that we're all still away from the end.
And maybe there's a huge open space between my opinion and the reality that existed in those 20 years of most beautiful love. I don't know, but I'm ready to explore it. :c)
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And maybe there's a huge open space between my opinion and the reality that existed in those 20 years of most beautiful love. I don't know, but I'm ready to explore it. :c)
That's beautifully said. ^f^
I agree completely. This is what we are here for, after all. And I admit that there are some threads and discussions that I don't visit because it is just too hard for me to address some of the aspects of their journey or some of the opinions expressed about it where I prefer to hold onto my own. This is why I'm so glad that we have the variety of threads we have. There is truly something for everyone and room to roam through the threads that speak the most to each of us. :ghug:
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Thanks Tammy and loreen. Thanks everyone.
In a way, we each approach this qustion in the light of how we view death and redemption. Can there be redemption after death? Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?
I think that Jack was doing things he really believed in all his life. He had many sins, he suffered coz/for those sins, but he was an honest, open person who lived with all his heart, who treated others in his best way, who, regardless of his sins was a really good man. I think that he's gone in peace. Redemption is possible, but not so long... And I don't think that he was a saint, I just see him as a person who had no doubts about his deeds and who avoid hurting others... or I am subjective again when it comes to Jack Twist? Don't know! :s)
Ennis's life in the trailer was a kind of redemption for not being brave to live full life with the only one he loved. Now he's doomed to live the full life bravely, but without Jack. That kind of life is like the food without salt - no taste!
I agree here with MPJ - he lived a poor substitute for life.
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That's beautifully said. ^f^
I agree completely. This is what we are here for, after all. And I admit that there are some threads and discussions that I don't visit because it is just too hard for me to address some of the aspects of their journey or some of the opinions expressed about it where I prefer to hold onto my own. This is why I'm so glad that we have the variety of threads we have. There is truly something for everyone and room to roam through the threads that speak the most to each of us. :ghug:
Thanks FC! ^f^
I understand you, coz after posting twice today in this thread, I am also on the edge of crying... OK, over the edge now :\'( ...This all talking about their pain shook me hard. And I also avoid some threads, for the same reason as you do - coz I don't see my stand in them.
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Andrew,your posts are always wisely written,and in this sense,your theory of the glass half full or half empty illustrates very well this.We can declare that Ennis could be something very similar to be "happy" because he has managed to live with his memories of the past and with some new ways of being learned from these past experiences.Even we could say that he has found a new mother,somebody who cares for him,in Jack's Ma figure and that he has learn to be closer to his daughters.They say that no past's experiences can be really useful if we aren't able to learn from them in our present times.And Ennis did,paying a great and painful bill for learn,but he did...
Nevertheless,the basis of all this,of this possibility of changing his life and begin from zero-as we say here-,comes from a tragic and irremediable situation;the death of the person he has loved the most in his life.Can we really replace the possible reality of having been happy,of having been HIMSELF,for the fact of having two shirts as an indelible souvenir of this now impossible reality?Can we really replace all the moments they had could live together and that he mainly denied,for the fact of being closer to his daughters,as a substitutive for this person?Can we really replace all the beautiful souvenirs he has now,of these lived moments,of what has been,for the bitter reality of remembering what could have been and never was,and never will be?.Maybe I see the bottle half empty,but it's a poor remains,IMO.
Alicia, you are too kind to me. I am far from wise.
As I said, whatever Ennis had, no matter what joy he found with the two shirts, it was only half of something when missing Jack.
I did not say Ennis had great joy. In fact, I feel his sorrow all the more, for the joy that he lost.
I felt an immediate connection with the quote from Kahlil Gibran when I heard it, and it applies here as well.
"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain."
I said the sorrows of Ennis and Jack are not comparable because they are apples and oranges. They are fundamentally different in their nature.
Ennis' joy is found in knowing he was loved, deeply and for so long, all this time, while he was always yearning for love without knowing it, in that stoic independent cowboy spirit. The joy and the sorrow are mixed together in that supreme moment when he discovered the shirts. They are inseparable. It was the genius of Heath to convey so much emotion, so much abstract understanding of the human spirit in that one moment reaching out to the sleeve of the shirt as he discovered the two shirts with his own blood stain still on them.
Jack's joy is found in the love they shared when they were together, but his sorrow is never having enough.
Ennis' love lost was compensated with love found, though in the opposite order to bring happiness.
Jack's love denied was compensated with the hope of perhaps, one day. This was shattered each time they parted, and especially after the last confrontation, and he watched Ennis driving off.
Ennis' sorrow and Jack's sorrow are like two needles in different orientation. One lasts a lifetime with a numbing pain under the skin, while the other is a deep stabbing pain that stuck momentary but leaves lasting scars. Once Jack died, the stabbing pain may have gone away, but it lived on in Ennis' guilt and regret.
As I said, we can look at the life of Ennis as half full or half empty at any moment. The sorrow is found when focusing on the emptiness; the joy is found when focusing on the fullness of what was, what is, and what will be. And no matter how we look at it, it was a half life, missing Jack.
Half empty or half full, it is love denied all because of bigotry and fear.
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I think that Jack was doing things he really believed in all his life. He had many sins, he suffered coz/for those sins, but he was an honest, open person who lived with all his heart, who treated others in his best way, who, regardless of his sins was a really good man. I think that he's gone in peace. Redemption is possible, but not so long... And I don't think that he was a saint, I just see him as a person who had no doubts about his deeds and who avoid hurting others... or I am subjective again when it comes to Jack Twist? Don't know! :s)
Ennis's life in the trailer was a kind of redemption for not being brave to live full life with the only one he loved. Now he's doomed to live the full life bravely, but without Jack. That kind of life is like the food without salt - no taste!
I agree here with MPJ - he lived a poor substitute for life.
I don't see Jack as having done anything that needed redemption. Perhaps the sin you speak of refers to going to Mexico, or being unfaithful to Lureen, but these are both based on his love for Ennis, a force of nature that cannot be denied. And when denied, the irresistible force found outlets in other ways.
The redemption that was spoken, in Tony's thread a year or so ago, that I was referring to, was for Ennis to change the life that he had, living in fear and in denial, to a life that was open and caring. It was still the simple life...when you got nothing you need nothing.
But it is not a matter of a life without taste, but a hand as it was dealt. If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it. At 39, divorced from Alma with alimony and child support, Ennis had his hands full. Losing Jack was the wake up call that made him take better care of what he had left. It was clear as night and day to see the joy in him from the moment he came downstairs holding those two shirts stepping into the kitchen. It was like watching a man who was just rescued from the depth of drowning in sorrow, a man who just found a new purpose in life.
As I said, I see the ending of the movie very differently, as the discussion that someone else (Branch?) raised earlier indicated. The prologue in the shortstory is not the ending of Brokeback Mountain for me. It's Heath's masterful perfect scene in the movie, living in Jack's dream, and not living in it, holding on to what was, while holding on in real life.
Kinda like what we do here. And we come and go for as long as we need it, as long as we can stand it.
There ain't no reins on this one.
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Alicia, you are too kind to me. I am far from wise.
As I said, whatever Ennis had, no matter what joy he found with the two shirts, it was only half of something when missing Jack.
I did not say Ennis had great joy. In fact, I feel his sorrow all the more, for the joy that he lost.
I felt an immediate connection with the quote from Kahlil Gibran when I heard it, and it applies here as well.
"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain."
I said the sorrows of Ennis and Jack are not comparable because they are apples and oranges. They are fundamentally different in their nature.
Ennis' joy is found in knowing he was loved, deeply and for so long, all this time, while he was always yearning for love without knowing it, in that stoic independent cowboy spirit. The joy and the sorrow are mixed together in that supreme moment when he discovered the shirts. They are inseparable. It was the genius of Heath to convey so much emotion, so much abstract understanding of the human spirit in that one moment reaching out to the sleeve of the shirt as he discovered the two shirts with his own blood stain still on them.
Jack's joy is found in the love they shared when they were together, but his sorrow is never having enough.
Ennis' love lost was compensated with love found, though in the opposite order to bring happiness.
Jack's love denied was compensated with the hope of perhaps, one day. This was shattered each time they parted, and especially after the last confrontation, and he watched Ennis driving off.
Ennis' sorrow and Jack's sorrow are like two needles in different orientation. One lasts a lifetime with a numbing pain under the skin, while the other is a deep stabbing pain that stuck momentary but leaves lasting scars. Once Jack died, the stabbing pain may have gone away, but it lived on in Ennis' guilt and regret.
As I said, we can look at the life of Ennis as half full or half empty at any moment. The sorrow is found when focusing on the emptiness; the joy is found when focusing on the fullness of what was, what is, and what will be. And no matter how we look at it, it was a half life, missing Jack.
Half empty or half full, it is love denied all because of bigotry and fear.
Great post, Lance! :^^)
As we don't quite agree on the end of the movie, I don't accept 100% of it, but enough to like your words as a whole! ^f^
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I don't see Jack as having done anything that needed redemption. Perhaps the sin you speak of refers to going to Mexico, or being unfaithful to Lureen, but these are both based on his love for Ennis, a force of nature that cannot be denied. And when denied, the irresistible force found outlets in other ways.
The redemption that was spoken, in Tony's thread a year or so ago, that I was referring to, was for Ennis to change the life that he had, living in fear and in denial, to a life that was open and caring. It was still the simple life...when you got nothing you need nothing.
But it is not a matter of a life without taste, but a hand as it was dealt. If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it. At 39, divorced from Alma with alimony and child support, Ennis had his hands full. Losing Jack was the wake up call that made him take better care of what he had left. It was clear as night and day to see the joy in him from the moment he came downstairs holding those two shirts stepping into the kitchen. It was like watching a man who was just rescued from the depth of drowning in sorrow, a man who just found a new purpose in life.
As I said, I see the ending of the movie very differently, as the discussion that someone else (Branch?) raised earlier indicated. The prologue in the shortstory is not the ending of Brokeback Mountain for me. It's Heath's masterful perfect scene in the movie, living in Jack's dream, and not living in it, holding on to what was, while holding on in real life.
Kinda like what we do here. And we come and go for as long as we need it, as long as we can stand it.
There ain't no reins on this one.
It is a strange thing that I have a completely different ideas on few things, yet I understand your opinion (not only accept it).
Well, about redemption: I was answering to tpe's question- "Can there be redemption after death? Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?"
I believe that (and I may be wrong) tpe was referring to Ennis's and Jack's existence after Jack's death. IMO Ennis was going through the redemption through the life without Jack and Jack in the other reality maybe too.... I wouldn't automatically excluded a stage of redemption for Jack('s soul), but not as near long as for Ennis in the trailer...
When Ennis found the shirts... well it is a definite killer for me :\'( :\'( :\'( , and absolutely something for him to hold on to, but still, I see no joy in his eyes. In fact, SS even doesn't express sorrow int the last part - more emptiness and meaningless. In the movie I see a deep sorrow for not be able to retrieve 5 minutes of what he had and let go ....
Yup Lance - as long as he/we can stand it! :c)
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It is a strange thing that I have a completely different ideas on few things, yet I understand your opinion (not only accept it).
Well, about redemption: I was answering to tpe's question- "Can there be redemption after death? Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?"
I believe that (and I may be wrong) tpe was referring to Ennis's and Jack's existence after Jack's death. IMO Ennis was going through the redemption through the life without Jack and Jack in the other reality maybe too.... I wouldn't automatically excluded a stage of redemption for Jack('s soul), but not as near long as for Ennis in the trailer...
When Ennis found the shirts... well it is a definite killer for me :\'( :\'( :\'( , and absolutely something for him to hold on to, but still, I see no joy in his eyes. In fact, SS even doesn't express sorrow int the last part - more emptiness and meaningless. In the movie I see a deep sorrow for not be able to retrieve 5 minutes of what he had and let go ....
Yup Lance - as long as he/we can stand it! :c)
Right. I see the misunderstanding. You were not speaking of Jack's sin before his death, but his soul's redemption after he died. I misunderstood you.
As Tammy said, this thread is deeply personal and can brings the great sorrows and tears. I only participate occasionally to release PBS, especially this last month, with Heath's 30th birthday anniversary. These last couple posts brought back the first days after watching Brokeback Mountain, and the first months here, dealing deep into the nuance and meaning of every scene. It's amazing how much power there is in the short moments on the screen.
I think I will be joining Tammy to leave off at this point. :t) for sharing the joy and the sorrow! I love this place. <^(
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Right. I see the misunderstanding. You were not speaking of Jack's sin before his death, but his soul's redemption after he died. I misunderstood you.
As Tammy said, this thread is deeply personal and can brings the great sorrows and tears. I only participate occasionally to release PBS, especially this last month, with Heath's 30th birthday anniversary. These last couple posts brought back the first days after watching Brokeback Mountain, and the first months here, dealing deep into the nuance and meaning of every scene. It's amazing how much power there is in the short moments on the screen.
I think I will be joining Tammy to leave off at this point. :t) for sharing the joy and the sorrow! I love this place. <^(
Well, I guess I see ya around then! ;)
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Well, I guess I see ya around then! ;)
Ya, if the army don't get me. :c)
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As I said, we can look at the life of Ennis as half full or half empty at any moment. The sorrow is found when focusing on the emptiness; the joy is found when focusing on the fullness of what was, what is, and what will be. And no matter how we look at it, it was a half life, missing Jack.
Half empty or half full, it is love denied all because of bigotry and fear.
I can't add anything else,but feeling admired for the way you express your ideas,really admired... ^f^ Of course,everything depends on where we focus our perceptions;as everything in life has two faces,sometimes even the most painful events.And in Ennis case,at least he had the comfort of knowing that he had been completely,desperately,madly loved...even if he had lost it,he had these souvenirs,more than this:the security that it was real in his life.Even if,as you say,their loved was denied because of bigotry and fear...
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Ya, if the army don't get me. :c)
;D ;D ;D I didn't expect this, but it sounds (t) (t) (t)!
:^^)
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Thanks Tammy and loreen. Thanks everyone.
In a way, we each approach this qustion in the light of how we view death and redemption. Can there be redemption after death? Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?
You provoke very interesting and motional discussions ^f^
I was trying to answer your question and I realize that I can't. I think the reason is I never thought of Ennis's and Jack's misery as of something being subject to redemption. Maybe it's the question of my understanding of redemption which for me is always connected with guilt, sin, necessary of repentance, asking for absolution and only then with peace.
If you ask if there is chance for peace after realizing all my failures , my answer would be yes but I would never connect this with redemption only with forgiving myself and willingness to open my heart in spite of terrible pain, what IMO Ennis did.
Your question of redemption (by me understood as and willingness to continue my journey into the happiness) after death is more difficult because it touches our religion beliefs. I'm the lucky to believe that death is the beginning of another life
so for me the "redemption" after death is not only possible but even inevitable. I wish Jack's "redemption" would be only waiting patiently for Ennis and their eternal sweet life.
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You provoke very interesting and motional discussions ^f^
I was trying to answer your question and I realize that I can't. I think the reason is I never thought of Ennis's and Jack's misery as of something being subject to redemption. Maybe it's the question of my understanding of redemption which for me is always connected with guilt, sin, necessary of repentance, asking for absolution and only then with peace.
If you ask if there is chance for peace after realizing all my failures , my answer would be yes but I would never connect this with redemption only with forgiving myself and willingness to open my heart in spite of terrible pain, what IMO Ennis did.
Your question of redemption (by me understood as and willingness to continue my journey into the happiness) after death is more difficult because it touches our religion beliefs. I'm the lucky to believe that death is the beginning of another life
so for me the "redemption" after death is not only possible but even inevitable. I wish Jack's "redemption" would be only waiting patiently for Ennis and their eternal sweet life.
:ghug: traveler :ghug: you deserve to be happy. You can forgive yourself, which is what Ennis did, knowing that every day they met, Jack forgave him and continued to love him. It was his own fear that kept him from the sweet life, not Jack being sore after that punch, not Jack being sore after he refused the sweet life by the river that night, not Jack being sore after all the times he said no.
The redemption of love for Ennis was to live up to what he could have done, and never let a moment of loving, of opportunity to love slip by without at least trying. That's what Jack did.
:ghug: traveler :ghug: What Brokeback Mountain says, is that we all have our chance for happiness and we deserve it. And it's nobody's business but ours. ^f^
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:ghug: traveler :ghug: you deserve to be happy. You can forgive yourself, which is what Ennis did, knowing that every day they met, Jack forgave him and continued to love him. It was his own fear that kept him from the sweet life, not Jack being sore after that punch, not Jack being sore after he refused the sweet life by the river that night, not Jack being sore after all the times he said no.
The redemption of love for Ennis was to live up to what he could have done, and never let a moment of loving, of opportunity to love slip by without at least trying. That's what Jack did.
:ghug: traveler :ghug: What Brokeback Mountain says, is that we all have our chance for happiness and we deserve it. And it's nobody's business but ours. ^f^
Your posts are always like the light sparkles - extremely inspiring insights, the more so because they seem to result from your own experiences and your intentional focusing on the brightness. Thank you for being here, Dear Lance.
Reading your post I realized that your theory of "half full, half empty" connects with (self) forgiving and fear. Half full: Ennis's life after Jack' death would not be the torture if he forgives himself missing the chance to have sweet life with Jack and making him suffer so much. Half empty (maybe even empty at all): living in fear no matter which fears we think about. Ennis's fear that kept him from sweet life with Jack :\'( :\'( like you said.
Wishing all of us always know how to forgive ourselves, I ask all Gods of the world to support us in overcoming our fears.
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Your posts are always like the light sparkles - extremely inspiring insights, the more so because they seem to result from your own experiences and your intentional focusing on the brightness. Thank you for being here, Dear Lance.
Reading your post I realized that your theory of "half full, half empty" connects with (self) forgiving and fear. Half full: Ennis's life after Jack' death would not be the torture if he forgives himself missing the chance to have sweet life with Jack and making him suffer so much. Half empty (maybe even empty at all): living in fear no matter which fears we think about. Ennis's fear that kept him from sweet life with Jack :\'( :\'( like you said.
Wishing all of us always know how to forgive ourselves, I ask all Gods of the world to support us in overcoming our fears.
Thank you for your kind words, traveler. I am inspired by your posts as well because as fellow travelers on this road, your stories resonate at some level with mine. It is why we are here, for Brokeback Mountain, because it is the fire that lit the way. I found a beacon to follow and am merely re-telling the same tale that helped me. Indeed I try my hardest to focus on the light, and follow the path but there are difficult times, and being here makes it easier. ^f^
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There are difficult times on my path as well. Sometimes I hate all my pain, failures and misfortunes but sometimes I am able to accept them as the stage in my journey. Looking around, thinking of my relations and people I know, I see that these of them who are able to stand up after being broken or devastated are somehow more human that those who have always had sweet or easy life. This knowledge helps to decrease a little bit my sorrow for Ennis and Jack, at least sometimes.
I would say they both have the strange power over me. It's like I am somehow connected with them, their love and their pain. Maybe that is why I try so hard to find the light in their story.
Sorry for *o) if it's the case :)
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There are difficult times on my path as well. Sometimes I hate all my pain, failures and misfortunes but sometimes I am able to accept them as the stage in my journey. Looking around, thinking of my relations and people I know, I see that these of them who are able to stand up after being broken or devastated are somehow more human that those who have always had sweet or easy life. This knowledge helps to decrease a little bit my sorrow for Ennis and Jack, at least sometimes.
I would say they both have the strange power over me. It's like I am somehow connected with them, their love and their pain. Maybe that is why I try so hard to find the light in their story.
Sorry for *o) if it's the case :)
Not sure if you have Christian background or not, but here are three of my favorite songs that your statement above reminded me of them:
Michael Card's Known by the Scar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hnCT4yx0TM
Garth Brooks
The Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6BU3kucDMo&feature=related
Standing Outside the Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itHMtPSgiTk&feature=related
I have a few others of the same theme but can't recall them off the top.
:ghug: here's to all those who pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and move on again. :cr)
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There are difficult times on my path as well. Sometimes I hate all my pain, failures and misfortunes but sometimes I am able to accept them as the stage in my journey. Looking around, thinking of my relations and people I know, I see that these of them who are able to stand up after being broken or devastated are somehow more human that those who have always had sweet or easy life. This knowledge helps to decrease a little bit my sorrow for Ennis and Jack, at least sometimes.
I would say they both have the strange power over me. It's like I am somehow connected with them, their love and their pain. Maybe that is why I try so hard to find the light in their story.
Sorry for *o) if it's the case :)
This is so true. I guess that we can not recognize and respect something we've never tasted - if someone never knew the pain, than he's immune to the sympathy for others' pain. But that person can also never experience the joy - coz have nothing to compare it with. We know the joy, only because we know the pain, right?
I believe that the pain, both of our boys have tasted during the separation over the years, made their infrequent meetings more joyful and truly happy. So much so that they even didn't want to singe them with the talking about the life they've left behind for a short while. :(
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:ghug: Tammy FlwrChild Everyone :ghug:
It was made clear to me early on that I see the movie's ending differently, and I think it has to do with the personality of Ennis, of me.
I recently found a wonderful documentary of Dick Proenneke's time in Alaska, alone, in a cabin, living with the one thing he loved, nature, the wilderness, the animals he loved. He was happy. He lived there for thirty years until he was 80 years old.
People see Ennis living alone in his trailer and say he is miserable. I see Ennis living with his two shirts, close to his daughters, communicating with the most important woman in Jack's life, and say he is happy.
Is the glass half full, or half empty?
It is certain half of something. Because Jack isn't there.
There's no reins on this one. And I love this place just the same. :c) ^f^
The analogy is quite apt.
And yes, I see as much hope in the ending as there is sadness.
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Well, IMO (and this is in a way a reply to Baby Tammy) if we withdraw this thread, we could do it with dozens of others too. Coz in most of them (which regards the movie itself) we give our opinion on things. Some can be wrong (e.g. if I said that Jack never loved Ennis ^*() ), but most of them are not right or wrong. I give my opinion about their pain and suffer, and I know they both suffered, and I know that there's no measuring instrument to measure the pain.
This topic is different from others only because we discussed their pain. In another we're measuring their love - "Whose love speak to you more?". We just give our opinion, we dissect the scenes, quotes and all. In the thread "we gotta stick this out" we are talking about what Ennis thought and did Jack feel guilty in that moment etc.... but again it is what we think - and we are not Ennis or Jack. And we love them both!
In discussion here, I changed my mind about some meaning in the movie many times - sometimes by myself but mostly coz the influence of other members. It is the journey, and I tend to believe that we're all still away from the end.
And maybe there's a huge open space between my opinion and the reality that existed in those 20 years of most beautiful love. I don't know, but I'm ready to explore it. :c)
And like that other thread, this tells you more about ourselves and how we view pain, brokenness, and the human condition -- as much as how much we empathize about certain aspects of it and live with them even in our own lives.
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I think that Jack was doing things he really believed in all his life. He had many sins, he suffered coz/for those sins, but he was an honest, open person who lived with all his heart, who treated others in his best way, who, regardless of his sins was a really good man. I think that he's gone in peace. Redemption is possible, but not so long... And I don't think that he was a saint, I just see him as a person who had no doubts about his deeds and who avoid hurting others... or I am subjective again when it comes to Jack Twist? Don't know! :s)
Ennis's life in the trailer was a kind of redemption for not being brave to live full life with the only one he loved. Now he's doomed to live the full life bravely, but without Jack. That kind of life is like the food without salt - no taste!
I agree here with MPJ - he lived a poor substitute for life.
But so long as one gets another chance to love those who mean so much to you (i.e., his daughters), it was not so bad, no? It's Jack's legacy of love to Ennis, I think -- even if jack's love was imperfect. That's the miracle of it all.
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You provoke very interesting and motional discussions ^f^
I was trying to answer your question and I realize that I can't. I think the reason is I never thought of Ennis's and Jack's misery as of something being subject to redemption. Maybe it's the question of my understanding of redemption which for me is always connected with guilt, sin, necessary of repentance, asking for absolution and only then with peace.
If you ask if there is chance for peace after realizing all my failures , my answer would be yes but I would never connect this with redemption only with forgiving myself and willingness to open my heart in spite of terrible pain, what IMO Ennis did.
Your question of redemption (by me understood as and willingness to continue my journey into the happiness) after death is more difficult because it touches our religion beliefs. I'm the lucky to believe that death is the beginning of another life
so for me the "redemption" after death is not only possible but even inevitable. I wish Jack's "redemption" would be only waiting patiently for Ennis and their eternal sweet life.
You understood correctly, traveller. And yes, it is more difficult to answer because they tough on matters that humnas have been asking for ages and continue to search for answers. I too bleiev in an afterlife, but even if I didn't, I think that redemption in this life is possible -- even if imperfect. To live the good life does not necessarily equate to living a life of happiness. But in many cases, it it through pain and suffering that we achive some measure of peace and meaning in life -- if not complete happiness.
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But so long as one gets another chance to love those who mean so much to you (i.e., his daughters), it was not so bad, no? It's Jack's legacy of love to Ennis, I think -- even if jack's love was imperfect. That's the miracle of it all.
Well, IMO Jack's love was perfect! Maybe too perfect for the imperfect environment they were living at. Is this too romantic or too subjective, I don't know! But Jack really loved Ennis with the pure immense love.
Still, I see no miracle in the end. Not that I'm not trying, it is just that I can't. For me - almost all's lost! :(
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And like that other thread, this tells you more about ourselves and how we view pain, brokenness, and the human condition -- as much as how much we empathize about certain aspects of it and live with them even in our own lives.
I agree with this! And lovely put, BTW! :)
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Well, IMO Jack's love was perfect! Maybe too perfect for the imperfect environment they were living at. Is this too romantic or too subjective, I don't know! But Jack really loved Ennis with the pure immense love.
Still, I see no miracle in the end. Not that I'm not trying, it is just that I can't. For me - almost all's lost! :(
Well, I wouldn't say that it was perfect. But I think it was very gentle. To love gently is a difficult thing to do. In trying to "measure" the greater sorrow, we should also take into acount the measure of "forgiveness" or understanding. In this regard, I think Jack's was exemplary, although it can be argued whether this gave him any great consolation. With the DE in mind, I think that it did, and therefore, perhaps his measure of sorrow was tempered by that gentleness.
I agree with this! And lovely put, BTW! :)
Thanks, loreen. :)
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Not sure if you have Christian background or not, but here are three of my favorite songs that your statement above reminded me of them:
Michael Card's Known by the Scar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hnCT4yx0TM
Garth Brooks
The Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6BU3kucDMo&feature=related
Standing Outside the Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itHMtPSgiTk&feature=related
I have a few others of the same theme but can't recall them off the top.
:ghug: here's to all those who pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and move on again. :cr)
BBM time is for me time to discover and revalue so many things about myself. I've never thought the country music may be motional and give so possitive message. Thank you, Lance ^f^
In regard to my Christian beackground, I certainly have some because I was born in catholic family but I only feel good looking for God in every single moment of joy, beauty and awareness than in any official religion.
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You understood correctly, traveller. And yes, it is more difficult to answer because they tough on matters that humnas have been asking for ages and continue to search for answers. I too bleiev in an afterlife, but even if I didn't, I think that redemption in this life is possible -- even if imperfect. To live the good life does not necessarily equate to living a life of happiness. But in many cases, it it through pain and suffering that we achive some measure of peace and meaning in life -- if not complete happiness.
It must be so difficult to know/believe death is the real end. From all my heart I hope Ennis did believe in afterlife (such a nice and convenient word, thanks:-))
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This is so true. I guess that we can not recognize and respect something we've never tasted - if someone never knew the pain, than he's immune to the sympathy for others' pain. But that person can also never experience the joy - coz have nothing to compare it with. We know the joy, only because we know the pain, right?
I believe that the pain, both of our boys have tasted during the separation over the years, made their infrequent meetings more joyful and truly happy. So much so that they even didn't want to singe them with the talking about the life they've left behind for a short while. :(
I absolutely agree with you : there is no real empathy, joy and maybe even true love without experiencing pain and sorrow ^f^
And what you said about Ennis an Jack, IMO tells us o lot about their commitment, respect and love. 20 years is a lot of time. So many years of separation. The things between Ennis and Jack could easy go in opposite direction, the separation is often such a strong impulse to get closed and permanently angry.
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Well, I wouldn't say that it was perfect. But I think it was very gentle. To love gently is a difficult thing to do. In trying to "measure" the greater sorrow, we should also take into acount the measure of "forgiveness" or understanding. In this regard, I think Jack's was exemplary, although it can be argued whether this gave him any great consolation. With the DE in mind, I think that it did, and therefore, perhaps his measure of sorrow was tempered by that gentleness.
:s) Why do you think that Jack's love wasn't perfect? He was willing to do anything, to leave his own child (and wife), to go wherever Ennis would him to, he was patient, understanding... what more should've he done to have perfect love for Ennis? :s)
As much as in this world anything could be perfect, I think that his love was.
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It must be so difficult to know/believe death is the real end. From all my heart I hope Ennis did believe in afterlife (such a nice and convenient word, thanks:-))
At the very least, Ennis in the end must have believed that Jack lives on -- under his (i.e., Ennis's) very skin.
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:s) Why do you think that Jack's love wasn't perfect? He was willing to do anything, to leave his own child (and wife), to go wherever Ennis would him to, he was patient, understanding... what more should've he done to have perfect love for Ennis? :s)
As much as in this world anything could be perfect, I think that his love was.
Well, no mortal love is perfect. ;)
But for Jack specifically -- he didn't have enough faith in Ennis's love for him. And reciprocally, he felt that Ennis held back a part of himself, and he (i.e., Jack) somehow must have gotten the idea that even their love for each other had limits (i.e., read Proulx's passage on the Dozy Embrace.)
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I tend to agree with Thomas in that Jack's love wasn't perfect completely;firstly,for something so logical as to say that any human love is perfect,because any human being is neither...But also because,even if he had a lot of qualities we look for in any lover,he was as lack of real communication as Ennis was in another sense,maybe.As we have already said in other threads,his fear for losing Ennis avoid him to put things clearer enough many years before FC;for fear and,as Thomas says,maybe he wasn't too confident in Ennis love for him,maybe he wasn't too aware of the feelings his lover had for him.Maybe he wasn't so sure of himself as he seemed to be,and his fears made him loose Ennis little by little in some sense,thinking that saying his wishes in loud voice would make him run away...
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Well, no mortal love is perfect. ;)
But for Jack specifically -- he didn't have enough faith in Ennis's love for him. And reciprocally, he felt that Ennis held back a part of himself, and he (i.e., Jack) somehow must have gotten the idea that even their love for each other had limits (i.e., read Proulx's passage on the Dozy Embrace.)
I tend to agree with Thomas in that Jack's love wasn't perfect completely;firstly,for something so logical as to say that any human love is perfect,because any human being is neither...But also because,even if he had a lot of qualities we look for in any lover,he was as lack of real communication as Ennis was in another sense,maybe.As we have already said in other threads,his fear for losing Ennis avoid him to put things clearer enough many years before FC;for fear and,as Thomas says,maybe he wasn't too confident in Ennis love for him,maybe he wasn't too aware of the feelings his lover had for him.Maybe he wasn't so sure of himself as he seemed to be,and his fears made him loose Ennis little by little in some sense,thinking that saying his wishes in loud voice would make him run away...
OK, no mortal love is perfect, that's right. But in the terms of that I see no faults in Jack's love.
He was afraid of losing Ennis. Is that a sign of an imperfection? Why it should be? Maybe he loved Ennis so much that he just couldn't bear to lose him.
Not to be confident in Ennis's love is a sign of an imperfection? Why should it it be? The pureness of his love was not a guaranty that Ennis's fears wouldn't overcome his love towards Jack.
For me these things are not the indicators of the imperfect love, but of human fear, of insecurity he felt in himself.
The limits were only the unfortunate circumstances in which this love took place and time. No other limits for Jack.
Jack was driving 14 hours to see Ennis after getting a note that he's divorced. After being rejected, he was ready to meet him the next month.... how much love and understanding anyone can have to be able to endure that. I am sure not many of us!
He comforted Ennis many times when he needed a comfort himself. Always with a deep understanding for him (Ennis).
He was ready to leave everything and everyone for Ennis. Without a second thought!
I can't see how his love could be more perfect.
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I had some thoughts on this myself but I'm not sure I could say it any better than loreen. I agree with that wholeheartedly. :c)
More later if I can dust off my brain long enough to formulate a response. ::)
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I had some thoughts on this myself but I'm not sure I could say it any better than loreen. I agree with that wholeheartedly. :c)
More later if I can dust off my brain long enough to formulate a response. ::)
Thanks for your kind words, but I'm sure you can formulate the respond much better than me! :)
And I ain't foolin'! :c)
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OK, no mortal love is perfect, that's right. But in the terms of that I see no faults in Jack's love.
He was afraid of losing Ennis. Is that a sign of an imperfection? Why it should be? Maybe he loved Ennis so much that he just couldn't bear to lose him.
Not to be confident in Ennis's love is a sign of an imperfection? Why should it it be? The pureness of his love was not a guaranty that Ennis's fears wouldn't overcome his love towards Jack.
For me these things are not the indicators of the imperfect love, but of human fear, of insecurity he felt in himself.
The limits were only the unfortunate circumstances in which this love took place and time. No other limits for Jack.
Jack was driving 14 hours to see Ennis after getting a note that he's divorced. After being rejected, he was ready to meet him the next month.... how much love and understanding anyone can have to be able to endure that. I am sure not many of us!
He comforted Ennis many times when he needed a comfort himself. Always with a deep understanding for him (Ennis).
He was ready to leave everything and everyone for Ennis. Without a second thought!
I can't see how his love could be more perfect.
You're the best Jack's defender,LoreenĄ :clap: No,all what you comment is not an imperfection for itself-maybe to love somebody madly and unconditionally is so?-,but what was imperfect-more or less-is the way he managed with these qualities of his love for Ennis.When I have said that he was afraid of losing him and that maybe he wasn't too aware of the greatness of his partner's love for him,I'm not saying that this is imperfect. %( I'm saying that he had an unbearable lack of communication with Ennis to treat precisely these subjects,he waited too many years to talk about them until his explosion in FC.I don't know if this can't be called "an imperfection",but yes a fault,a mistake...
And,oh,come onĄ...Ennis and Jack weren't any Gods or any supermen;they were just two human beings,with all that this word means.It's to say,they were imperfect,they had some faults and mistakes,THEY WERE HUMANS.It's for this same reason that we can see ourselves reflected in them,that we can feel their tragedy as ours; we feel them so close to us because they are just like any of us-including the negative parts-.JMHO.
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This is my take on Jack's love for Ennis:
First, I do think that he had faith in Ennis' love, even when Ennis couldn't admit to himself that that was what it was. His faith kept him going back for 20 years, despite the 'rejections', despite the fact that even between themselves they couldn't name what they meant to each other, and despite a sense of diminishing importance in Ennis' life. He kept the faith for both of them, holding their love in a special place inside just in case Ennis ever decided to come looking for it there.
And second, as to the communication issue, I've always said that I thought Jack understood very well how far he could tread with Ennis. His fears of pushing Ennis too far weren't an imperfection and his willingness to maintain the silence, keeping his feelings to himself, were born of the lessons he learned on those occasions when he did try to communicate more openly with Ennis. Each attempt to do so was met with a clear message of "Don't go there" or "I can't look at that too closely."
- "I ain't queer" elicits the necessary "Me neither" so as not to trigger Ennis' low startle point.
- "You gonna do this again next summer?" gets "Maybe not. I'm getting married." (this following the punch that was precipitated by Ennis's inability to handle Jack's attempt at comforting him - much too intimate a gesture for him to handle in that moment)
- "It could be like this..." gets him "I told you. It ain't gonna be like that."
- The divorce scene speaks for itself. :\'(
- "Maybe you should move" gets him mocked and belittled.
- And "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is met with a heartbreaking silence.
I really don't think that Jack can be faulted for the lack of communication in their relationship. Each time he ventured to bring some open honesty to what he/they were feeling, Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't willing to go there. And the risk that Ennis would get spooked and pull out of the relationship altogether was a very real one to Jack. I think he did what he needed to do for the sake of the relationship (and admittedly I bring some of my own personal baggage to that impression so I acknowledge this is why I feel so strongly about that point).
Did he do everything right? No, but I don't think that I would call that a mistake. And as mpj says, they were human with all the strengths and weaknesses that entails. And this is most definitely why we relate so strongly to their feelings and what they go through. :ghug:
This is also why, as much as I too am willing to speculate about it, I also agree that we can't possibly compare their levels of sorrow against each other. Because at the end of the day, the gulf between them, both in life and in death, caused both of them more sorrow than I would ever wish on anyone.
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You're the best Jack's defender,LoreenĄ :clap: No,all what you comment is not an imperfection for itself-maybe to love somebody madly and unconditionally is so?-,but what was imperfect-more or less-is the way he managed with these qualities of his love for Ennis.When I have said that he was afraid of losing him and that maybe he wasn't too aware of the greatness of his partner's love for him,I'm not saying that this is imperfect. %( I'm saying that he had an unbearable lack of communication with Ennis to treat precisely these subjects,he waited too many years to talk about them until his explosion in FC.I don't know if this can't be called "an imperfection",but yes a fault,a mistake...
And,oh,come onĄ...Ennis and Jack weren't any Gods or any supermen;they were just two human beings,with all that this word means.It's to say,they were imperfect,they had some faults and mistakes,THEY WERE HUMANS.It's for this same reason that we can see ourselves reflected in them,that we can feel their tragedy as ours; we feel them so close to us because they are just like any of us-including the negative parts-.JMHO.
Babe, you know that I love Jack Twist so much so that I can't resent him anything.... <^( (t)
I am not saying that HE was perfect. If he really was, then he'd be able to make Ennis do anything. But Jack was human with all his personal imperfections. Still, he had a deep, pure, devoted and endless love for his Ennis. That's my stand here.
He did the best he could, and if he had known how to do better, I'm sure that he would've not saved any effort to do that. He would've done just anything that could make Ennis to stay with him forever. But he himself was human and he did many mistakes. These mistakes unfortunately had a direct impact on their relationship, but they didn't come from the imperfection of his love, but from the human imperfection per se.
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This is my take on Jack's love for Ennis:
First, I do think that he had faith in Ennis' love, even when Ennis couldn't admit to himself that that was what it was. His faith kept him going back for 20 years, despite the 'rejections', despite the fact that even between themselves they couldn't name what they meant to each other, and despite a sense of diminishing importance in Ennis' life. He kept the faith for both of them, holding their love in a special place inside just in case Ennis ever decided to come looking for it there.
And second, as to the communication issue, I've always said that I thought Jack understood very well how far he could tread with Ennis. His fears of pushing Ennis too far weren't an imperfection and his willingness to maintain the silence, keeping his feelings to himself, were born of the lessons he learned on those occasions when he did try to communicate more openly with Ennis. Each attempt to do so was met with a clear message of "Don't go there" or "I can't look at that too closely."
- "I ain't queer" elicits the necessary "Me neither" so as not to trigger Ennis' low startle point.
- "You gonna do this again next summer?" gets "Maybe not. I'm getting married." (this following the punch that was precipitated by Ennis's inability to handle Jack's attempt at comforting him - much too intimate a gesture for him to handle in that moment)
- "It could be like this..." gets him "I told you. It ain't gonna be like that."
- The divorce scene speaks for itself. :\'(
- "Maybe you should move" gets him mocked and belittled.
- And "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is met with a heartbreaking silence.
I really don't think that Jack can be faulted for the lack of communication in their relationship. Each time he ventured to bring some open honesty to what he/they were feeling, Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't willing to go there. And the risk that Ennis would get spooked and pull out of the relationship altogether was a very real one to Jack. I think he did what he needed to do for the sake of the relationship (and admittedly I bring some of my own personal baggage to that impression so I acknowledge this is why I feel so strongly about that point).
Did he do everything right? No, but I don't think that I would call that a mistake. And as mpj says, they were human with all the strengths and weaknesses that entails. And this is most definitely why we relate so strongly to their feelings and what they go through. :ghug:
This is also why, as much as I too am willing to speculate about it, I also agree that we can't possibly compare their levels of sorrow against each other. Because at the end of the day, the gulf between them, both in life and in death, caused both of them more sorrow than I would ever wish on anyone.
Well, as I predicted: this is such a beautiful post. ^f^
I just want to explain my words about Jack not having the confidence in Ennis's love: he knew that Ennis loved him in his way. But the fear in Ennis was to strong that Jack always remained in the secured terrain, never moved from it. Did he have to be a little more persistent? Maybe so! But even knowing that Ennis loved him (and after the reunion kiss who could suspect that love at all?), he didn't know when Ennis's love would be beaten by his fears and suppressed comprehension about their relationship. He wasn't confident what would prevail in Ennis in the certain moment.... if you can understand my words? :s)
I believe that Jack had his chances during 20 years of "fishing" to make Ennis change his mind. Also, he should've never show so openly how he cared, coz that frightened stiffed Ennis even more, but obviously Jack also had his fears, not the same as Ennis, but with the same result - of destroying the chances for two of them.
As for their suffering I agree that during life they both suffered a lot in a different way as both of them were completely different persons, opposite I can say. Still, although I love Jack, I think that in the end Ennis got an extra, an earthly punishment for the rest of his life.
Jack (in the Brokeback Heaven) and Ennis on the Earth both know that they'll come together again, but Jack in peace, and Ennis in pain.... so the only part about the differences in their grief, I really have a firm stand on, is the part after Jack's death. Ennis payed his price then!
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Well, as I predicted: this is such a beautiful post. ^f^
I just want to explain my words about Jack not having the confidence in Ennis's love: he knew that Ennis loved him in his way. But the fear in Ennis was to strong that Jack always remained in the secured terrain, never moved from it. Did he have to be a little more persistent? Maybe so! But even knowing that Ennis loved him (and after the reunion kiss who could suspect that love at all?), he didn't know when Ennis's love would be beaten by his fears and suppressed comprehension about their relationship. He wasn't confident what would prevail in Ennis in the certain moment.... if you can understand my words? :s)
I believe that Jack had his chances during 20 years of "fishing" to make Ennis change his mind. Also, he should've never show so openly how he cared, coz that frightened stiffed Ennis even more, but obviously Jack also had his fears, not the same as Ennis, but with the same result - of destroying the chances for two of them.
As for their suffering I agree that during life they both suffered a lot in a different way as both of them were completely different persons, opposite I can say. Still, although I love Jack, I think that in the end Ennis got an extra, an earthly punishment for the rest of his life. Jack (in the Brokeback Heaven) and Ennis on the Earth both know that they'll come together again, but Jack in peace, and Ennis in pain.... so the only part about the differences in their grief, I really have a firm stand on, is the part after Jack's death. Ennis payed his price then!
Oh, that is all so well said! Especially the bolded parts. ^f^
I'm not sure about Jack having other opportunities to change Ennis's mind. Or rather, I agree that there were opportunities but it's a difficult tightrope to walk between 'he had opportunities to change Ennis's mind' and "he should've never show so openly how he cared." That's not a lot to work with. And of course we'll never know if his patience all those years might have paid off someday, if Ennis might have finally come around, because they never had the chance to let their future play out. :-\\ And for the faith in Ennis part, I guess what I meant was that it wasn't so much that he didn't have faith in Ennis' love, it was more that he knew what Ennis was capable of at that time. Again, this hits a little too close to home for me to be objective.
In any case, these bolded parts speak so perfectly of how I see our boys. Thank you. :^^)
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Oh, that is all so well said! Especially the bolded parts. ^f^
I'm not sure about Jack having other opportunities to change Ennis's mind. Or rather, I agree that there were opportunities but it's a difficult tightrope to walk between 'he had opportunities to change Ennis's mind' and "he should've never show so openly how he cared." That's not a lot to work with. And of course we'll never know if his patience all those years might have paid off someday, if Ennis might have finally come around, because they never had the chance to let their future play out. :-\\ And for the faith in Ennis part, I guess what I meant was that it wasn't so much that he didn't have faith in Ennis' love, it was more that he knew what Ennis was capable of at that time. Again, this hits a little too close to home for me to be objective.
In any case, these bolded parts speak so perfectly of how I see our boys. Thank you. :^^)
Hi dear and thanks! :^^)
Just to explain about Jack's chances during 20 years... Well, it is a long time and I always try to calculate how many times they have met, how much (little) happiness they have shared... to go a little OT now - even Ennis's words in FC about them spending time in Don Wroe's cabin made my hurt heart suffer a little less for knowing that they at least one had a cozy, warm place to spend time together and somehow gave me a hope that during those years they had many many many beautiful moments together... OK, my computer is soaking now! :\'( :\'( :\'(
So, in that light.. we don't know all the situations they had been through, so we don't know all the chances Jack had and maybe all times when Ennis was a bit softer than in awful divorce scene ( :s) was he ever softer I wonder?)... those moments not known to us, Jack could've taken and made a progress with that stubborn Ennis! but he didn't! Unfortunately for both of them! :(
Finally, none of us can be objective when it comes to our love for Ennis and Jack, I think! :i
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Aww c'mere. :ghug:
Like you, I believe that they must have shared many beautiful moments over the years. Otherwise their time together wouldn't be worth making such efforts and sacrifices for. And you make a good point that we only see a tiny piece of their time together. Who knows what chances or moments to make changes might have come their way? I guess in the midst of our sorrow for them, we always have to remember the unique and beautiful love they had as well. :ghug:
And no, we'll never be objective in our love for Ennis and Jack, will we? :c)
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It took me a while to read though all the wonderful posts here from yesterday. Thanks all. :^^)
I think that for me, the greater sorrow is not necessarily proportional to the greater love. In fact, most of the time, we love a person most of all because of his imperfections. I think this is not just true with the love of Jack for Ennis. It is very true with Ennis's final realization of his love for Jack. Many people miss this point, I think. Ennis came to love and treasure the memory of Jack after death NOT IN SPITE of Jack's imperfection, but BECAUSE of it. Ennis had not really realized until then how much Jack had also suffered.
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Aww c'mere. :ghug:
Like you, I believe that they must have shared many beautiful moments over the years. Otherwise their time together wouldn't be worth making such efforts and sacrifices for. And you make a good point that we only see a tiny piece of their time together. Who knows what chances or moments to make changes might have come their way? I guess in the midst of our sorrow for them, we always have to remember the unique and beautiful love they had as well. :ghug:
And no, we'll never be objective in our love for Ennis and Jack, will we? :c)
It is just the greatness of that love that made our sorrow so difficult to bear. :(
After my first PBS I feel like a former alcoholic - I take one day at the time, coz I never know when their sorrow is going to strike again, and what will cause it.
Nope, no objectivity! As much as we're not objective when it comes to our children, the same is with Ennis and jack. Coz they as well are the very part of us! :ghug:
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It took me a while to read though all the wonderful posts here from yesterday. Thanks all. :^^)
I think that for me, the greater sorrow is not necessarily proportional to the greater love. In fact, most of the time, we love a person most of all because of his imperfections. I think this is not just true with the love of Jack for Ennis. It is very true with Ennis's final realization of his love for Jack. Many people miss this point, I think. Ennis came to love and treasure the memory of Jack after death NOT IN SPITE of Jack's imperfection, but BECAUSE of it. Ennis had not really realized until then how much Jack had also suffered.
Maybe not necessarily but almost always... I think. Coz why should you suffer for love if you don't really, deeply, truly love?
Hm... about imperfections that we love, I guess it is just the imperfections that can also make us hate the one who we loved!
I assume that your point is that Jack understood Ennis's suffer while he was alive, but it took the LF scene for Ennis to accept the truth about Jack's love and suffer? If so, I can agree with this. Still, as I said once, I believe that Ennis had started to open his eyes during FC, then during the conversation with Lureen, when he found out that Jack wanted to be buried on Brokeback and when he for the first time openly spoke put about their herding sheep, and the final strike and absolute clearness in his heart came with the shirts in Jack's room ... :\'(
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Maybe not necessarily but almost always... I think. Coz why should you suffer for love if you don't really, deeply, truly love?
Because true love usually entails sacrifices. You have to die a bit before you say that you can truly say that you are in love.
Hm... about imperfections that we love, I guess it is just the imperfections that can also make us hate the one who we loved!
I assume that your point is that Jack understood Ennis's suffer while he was alive, but it took the LF scene for Ennis to accept the truth about Jack's love and suffer? If so, I can agree with this. Still, as I said once, I believe that Ennis had started to open his eyes during FC, then during the conversation with Lureen, when he found out that Jack wanted to be buried on Brokeback and when he for the first time openly spoke put about their herding sheep, and the final strike and absolute clearness in his heart came with the shirts in Jack's room ... :\'(
I tend to think the other way -- that people who are too much alike and who seemingly look too perfect in their relationship are usually the ones to watch out for. It's like faith -- you have to keep on questioning it; the day you stop questioning, you have stopped believing.
Sorrow can also be a constructive force, and I think that this was the case with Ennis after Jack died. As for Jack, I think his remembering the DE the last time he met Ennis seems to suggest that the sorrow was also tempered. He knew that he didn't love Ennis all those years in vain.
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Because true love usually entails sacrifices. You have to die a bit before you say that you can truly say that you are in love.
I tend to think the other way -- that people who are too much alike and who seemingly look too perfect in their relationship are usually the ones to watch out for. It's like faith -- you have to keep on questioning it; the day you stop questioning, you have stopped believing.
Sorrow can also be a constructive force, and I think that this was the case with Ennis after Jack died. As for Jack, I think his remembering the DE the last time he met Ennis seems to suggest that the sorrow was also tempered. He knew that he didn't love Ennis all those years in vain.
Still, the greater love mostly means a greater sorrow and your words in this post just confirm that.
I assume that the story about loving human imperfections is true, as long as the perfection in the relationship would be boring, at least. On the second thought, I think that you're right - it was just about Ennis's and Jack's imperfections which matched perfectly that drew them to each other.
Loving someone in vain? What is in vain or not in vain?? Jack loved devotedly, no matter what!
That's why I love him - no matter what!
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Sorry for missing the discussion for a while. There was enough sorrow so I had to take a break.
About imperfection...I think with love, the imperfections become endearing. They are the spices that make the relationship more interesting. They are no longer imperfections but characters; love makes us perfect in the eyes of the lover.
About greater sorrow from greater love...I don't know how to measure sorrow or love. What measurement does one take, to say this sorrow is greater or this love is greater. I think there can be qualitative measurements, for example, there is no greater love than to give one's life for a loved one. That's the ultimate measurement. But beyond that, what is the quantitative uncertainty, of Jack's love for Ennis...driving fourteen hours each way, two three times a year, for sixteen years...let's see...1345 hours over the years. And how about Ennis...his hours waiting for Jack that first time before bouncing down the stairs to kiss Jack...and those lonely hours in the bar, drinking beer after beer...and getting the cabin from Don Wroe, bringing the horses on his trailer year after year until he was broke, and could afford none no more. How do you measure love?
I really don't know who loves whom more.
Finally...I can't measure the sorrow by years of suffering, or depth of despair either. I dare say Ennis suffers longer, measured in years, but that's about all that can be said. Is it more painful to have your heart broken all at once, and face the pain of grief for years to come, as Ennis suffered after that postcard, that phone call; or is it more painful to have your heart broken one piece at a time, chipped away by the years of getting no where slowly with the love that is immovable from his circling the coffee pot? Jack and Ennis both suffered unnecessarily, because of old bigotry that never died, but lived on in young ones' memories.
What I love about Brokeback Mountain and Heath's performance in Jack's boyhood home, in the room kept just the way it was when Jack was a boy, is the liberation of Ennis from the young one's memories dominated and bullied all his life, into a new memory of love, shared with the love that he denied, and then in a flash, embraced with all his being and all his might a memory that was at that long moment seared into his soul as deeply as he breathed in Jack's scent from the shirt, as he took in the sight of the tiny room looking out into a desolate plain. That moment of liberation, although too late, was to me the climax and essence of Brokeback Mountain. I am sure others feel differently, as I have been told, but that's just me.
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Still, the greater love mostly means a greater sorrow and your words in this post just confirm that.
I assume that the story about loving human imperfections is true, as long as the perfection in the relationship would be boring, at least. On the second thought, I think that you're right - it was just about Ennis's and Jack's imperfections which matched perfectly that drew them to each other.
Loving someone in vain? What is in vain or not in vain?? Jack loved devotedly, no matter what!
That's why I love him - no matter what!
Not necessarily. Great love calls for great selflessness -- the ability to forget oneself and know the other in a way that transcends personal feelings/sorrows. The greater the love, the greater the ability to suffer for the other, and in the language of love, that is NOT suffering. Paradoxical? ;)
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Sorry for missing the discussion for a while. There was enough sorrow so I had to take a break.
About imperfection...I think with love, the imperfections become endearing. They are the spices that make the relationship more interesting. They are no longer imperfections but characters; love makes us perfect in the eyes of the lover.
About greater sorrow from greater love...I don't know how to measure sorrow or love. What measurement does one take, to say this sorrow is greater or this love is greater. I think there can be qualitative measurements, for example, there is no greater love than to give one's life for a loved one. That's the ultimate measurement. But beyond that, what is the quantitative uncertainty, of Jack's love for Ennis...driving fourteen hours each way, two three times a year, for sixteen years...let's see...1345 hours over the years. And how about Ennis...his hours waiting for Jack that first time before bouncing down the stairs to kiss Jack...and those lonely hours in the bar, drinking beer after beer...and getting the cabin from Don Wroe, bringing the horses on his trailer year after year until he was broke, and could afford none no more. How do you measure love?
I really don't know who loves whom more.
Finally...I can't measure the sorrow by years of suffering, or depth of despair either. I dare say Ennis suffers longer, measured in years, but that's about all that can be said. Is it more painful to have your heart broken all at once, and face the pain of grief for years to come, as Ennis suffered after that postcard, that phone call; or is it more painful to have your heart broken one piece at a time, chipped away by the years of getting no where slowly with the love that is immovable from his circling the coffee pot? Jack and Ennis both suffered unnecessarily, because of old bigotry that never died, but lived on in young ones' memories.
What I love about Brokeback Mountain and Heath's performance in Jack's boyhood home, in the room kept just the way it was when Jack was a boy, is the liberation of Ennis from the young one's memories dominated and bullied all his life, into a new memory of love, shared with the love that he denied, and then in a flash, embraced with all his being and all his might a memory that was at that long moment seared into his soul as deeply as he breathed in Jack's scent from the shirt, as he took in the sight of the tiny room looking out into a desolate plain. That moment of liberation, although too late, was to me the climax and essence of Brokeback Mountain. I am sure others feel differently, as I have been told, but that's just me.
Well put.
It is certainly hard to quantify love and its relationship to personal suffering.
And the role of memory...
Liberation is not always joyful, but that does not mean that liberation is chained to suffering. I think Ennis's sorrow inside the closet is one that does not lead the person to suicide or self negation. It is a realization of true love that was both the root of his sorrow and his inevitable salvation through hope.
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Well put.
It is certainly hard to quantify love and its relationship to personal suffering.
And the role of memory...
Liberation is not always joyful, but that does not mean that liberation is chained to suffering. I think Ennis's sorrow inside the closet is one that does not lead the person to suicide or self negation. It is a realization of true love that was both the root of his sorrow and his inevitable salvation through hope.
Thanks, tpe, I was rather happy to put those words out there. They helped me solidify a few thoughts in my mind, and anchored them in place.
As you all already know, I saw that scene not as half empty but as half full, so I don't relate to the bolded part above, but the colored red part.
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Not necessarily. Great love calls for great selflessness -- the ability to forget oneself and know the other in a way that transcends personal feelings/sorrows. The greater the love, the greater the ability to suffer for the other, and in the language of love, that is NOT suffering. Paradoxical? ;)
Hm.. this a a words game and a philosophy which I am not very good at. :-\\
Are you saying that (e.g.) Jack's love for Ennis being so true and so great allowed him to surpass the pain? I don't see it... ???
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Thanks, tpe, I was rather happy to put those words out there. They helped me solidify a few thoughts in my mind, and anchored them in place.
As you all already know, I saw that scene not as half empty but as half full, so I don't relate to the bolded part above, but the colored red part.
I don't think it would be possible to think that Ennis could have ever contemplated suicide -- no proof, but that's the way I feel. This is another indication that all was not lost.
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I don't think it would be possible to think that Ennis could have ever contemplated suicide -- no proof, but that's the way I feel. This is another indication that all was not lost.
My thought exactly, tpe, and not only "no proof" but also "out of character".
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My thought exactly, tpe, and not only "no proof" but also "out of character".
Exactly. I think surrender of that kind was alien to the character, as developed by Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath...
"If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it." But I think -- in the end -- Ennis was able to stand it because he was now sure of his own ability to love.
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Exactly. I think surrender of that kind was alien to the character, as developed by Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath...
"If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it." But I think -- in the end -- Ennis was able to stand it because he was now sure of his own ability to love.
"surrender" is an interesting word, thomas, I would choose another...Ennis is not a quitter. Jack might quit his different ventures, or not quit, but keep hold without making progress :s) (that's a different topic) . Ennis is not the type who quits, even divorcing Alma was not something he'd do easily.
Surrender implies submitting to another. In that sense, Ennis has been surrendering to his fears, to the memory of that treacherous event, to the authority figures in his life, all his life until Jack came along. I love the way Heath transformed Ennis from the quiet obedient Ennis in the trailer at the beginning, to the smoking, spitting, sidelong glancing resentful Ennis at the end, when Aquierre told 'em "all you ranch hand are never no good." The old Ennis would have kept still, internalize the put down, and blamed himself - surrender. The new Ennis with Jack by his side would take no BS from that old bully. The body language says so much. The fist unclenched a little after that summer, but clenched tight again in the alley.
Nope, Ennis would never quit. He'd kept going round the handle of that coffee pot, and stand it for as long as he could, even drinking beer after beer if he had to. The beauty of the sequence from the phone booth to Lightning Flat is precisely the discovery that you spoke of. In the kitchen with Jack's Ma, and in the closet with the two shirts, he found the love that he did not know existed, the love that he had all along, and could now claim for his own, no matter what.
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"surrender" is an interesting word, thomas, I would choose another...Ennis is not a quitter. Jack might quit his different ventures, or not quit, but keep hold without making progress :s) (that's a different topic) . Ennis is not the type who quits, even divorcing Alma was not something he'd do easily.
Surrender implies submitting to another. In that sense, Ennis has been surrendering to his fears, to the memory of that treacherous event, to the authority figures in his life, all his life until Jack came along. I love the way Heath transformed Ennis from the quiet obedient Ennis in the trailer at the beginning, to the smoking, spitting, sidelong glancing resentful Ennis at the end, when Aquierre told 'em "all you ranch hand are never no good." The old Ennis would have kept still, internalize the put down, and blamed himself - surrender. The new Ennis with Jack by his side would take no BS from that old bully. The body language says so much. The fist unclenched a little after that summer, but clenched tight again in the alley.
Nope, Ennis would never quit. He'd kept going round the handle of that coffee pot, and stand it for as long as he could, even drinking beer after beer if he had to. The beauty of the sequence from the phone booth to Lightning Flat is precisely the discovery that you spoke of. In the kitchen with Jack's Ma, and in the closet with the two shirts, he found the love that he did not know existed, the love that he had all along, and could now claim for his own, no matter what.
Well, surrender has more than one meaning/connotation. ;) As I said, THAT kind of surrender was alien to Ennis's character. But there is also such a thing as surrender to love or surrender to fate.
I think that if Jack taught Ennis anything in death, it was that he (Jack) lived a life of total surrender to his dream -- which was a dream of love. It is precisely THIS form of surrender that Ennis understood in the end, and he is a stronger (not weaker) person because of it.
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Well, surrender has more than one meaning/connotation. ;) As I said, THAT kind of surrender was alien to Ennis's character. But there is also such a thing as surrender to love or surrender to fate.
I think that if Jack taught Ennis anything in death, it was that he (Jack) lived a life of total surrender to his dream -- which was a dream of love. It is precisely THIS form of surrender that Ennis understood in the end, and he is a stronger (not weaker) person because of it.
Love this! :)
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Well, surrender has more than one meaning/connotation. ;) As I said, THAT kind of surrender was alien to Ennis's character. But there is also such a thing as surrender to love or surrender to fate.
I think that if Jack taught Ennis anything in death, it was that he (Jack) lived a life of total surrender to his dream -- which was a dream of love. It is precisely THIS form of surrender that Ennis understood in the end, and he is a stronger (not weaker) person because of it.
I don't mean to be bringing out the dictionary all the time, but we seem to be caught in some semantic interpretation web lately. :P
1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress: to surrender the fort to the enemy; to surrender the stolen goods to the police.
2. to give (oneself) up, as to the police.
3. to give (oneself) up to some influence, course, emotion, etc.: He surrendered himself to a life of hardship.
4. to give up, abandon, or relinquish (comfort, hope, etc.).
5. to yield or resign (an office, privilege, etc.) in favor of another.
Before I looked up the meaning of surrender, I was going to suggest a different word to describe Jack and Ennis, their devotion to each other.
1. profound dedication; consecration.
2. earnest attachment to a cause, person, etc.
3. an assignment or appropriation to any purpose, cause, etc.: the devotion of one's wealth and time to scientific advancement.
In a sense, I can see what you mean by Jack's surrendering to his love for Ennis, to give himself up to the power of attraction to Ennis...the short leash, the fourteen hour drive each way. But in another sense, I also see Ennis' devotion to Jack, dedicating his life to those few times meeting each year, quitting job after job, losing a marriage, and countless opportunities like the job at the power plant, just to spend time with Jack.
Ennis also surrendered to a life of hardship, and his homophobia, until the revelation at the end with the two shirts, then he gained the power to shake free the self-imposed shackles, and gained strength from his devotion to the memory of Jack's love.
So, yeah, we are in agreement that Ennis was no quitter, and neither was Jack. They loved each other too much to quit. "I wish I knew how to quit you." was meant as "I can never quit...you/memory of you."
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Love this! :)
Thanks loreen! :)
I don't mean to be bringing out the dictionary all the time, but we seem to be caught in some semantic interpretation web lately. :P
1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress: to surrender the fort to the enemy; to surrender the stolen goods to the police.
2. to give (oneself) up, as to the police.
3. to give (oneself) up to some influence, course, emotion, etc.: He surrendered himself to a life of hardship.
4. to give up, abandon, or relinquish (comfort, hope, etc.).
5. to yield or resign (an office, privilege, etc.) in favor of another.
Before I looked up the meaning of surrender, I was going to suggest a different word to describe Jack and Ennis, their devotion to each other.
1. profound dedication; consecration.
2. earnest attachment to a cause, person, etc.
3. an assignment or appropriation to any purpose, cause, etc.: the devotion of one's wealth and time to scientific advancement.
In a sense, I can see what you mean by Jack's surrendering to his love for Ennis, to give himself up to the power of attraction to Ennis...the short leash, the fourteen hour drive each way. But in another sense, I also see Ennis' devotion to Jack, dedicating his life to those few times meeting each year, quitting job after job, losing a marriage, and countless opportunities like the job at the power plant, just to spend time with Jack.
Ennis also surrendered to a life of hardship, and his homophobia, until the revelation at the end with the two shirts, then he gained the power to shake free the self-imposed shackles, and gained strength from his devotion to the memory of Jack's love.
So, yeah, we are in agreement that Ennis was no quitter, and neither was Jack. They loved each other too much to quit. "I wish I knew how to quit you." was meant as "I can never quit...you/memory of you."
lance, this is beautifully put. Thank you. :^^)