Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on Jan 04, 2006, 03:53 PM
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From the information blurted out by Jack's father during Ennis' visit, it would seem that Jack had finally had enough and was ready to give up on Ennis, divorce his wife and move back home with his Texas ranch neighbor.
The story/movie wisely leaves this ambiguous because Jack died before any concrete action could have been taken. Jack could have simply stated this on his last home visit as an expression of his frustration or bitterness at that particular moment. Then again, he could have been completely serious about it.
Because I am totally besotted with the endurance and depth of Jack's and Ennis' relationship, I find it hard to accept that Jack really was serious in his avowed intention to 'break up' with Ennis. But objectively speaking, it could have been inevitable...
Your thoughts...
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I thought that at first, but note several things, Dad says it
"didn't happen" bringing the other guy up there. And JAck
finally blurts out "I wish I knew how to quit you" he couldn't.
And also "sometimes i miss you so much I can't stand it" so in
other words he tried to fill the void but couldn't.
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I thought that at first, but note several things, Dad says it
"didn't happen" bringing the other guy up there. And JAck
finally blurts out "I wish I knew how to quit you" he couldn't.
And also "sometimes i miss you so much I can't stand it" so in
other words he tried to fill the void but couldn't.
I feel exactly the same way. You said it beautifully.
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In my own mind, I can't ever see jack being able to give up or quit Ennis.
I can however see him starting a relationship with someone else, and I can see him being more like Ennis, in possibly being harder to get for them to get together. Maybe more as a petty punishment for Ennis making it difficult for them to get together towards the end.
I can see Jack making substitutions for Ennis when he had to, and I can see him actually divorcing Lureen and starting a relationship with ??? BUT I still see him making the same excuses, and taking the same time to be with Ennis--just like he did with Lureen--I can see him wanting to and even partially trying to wean himself away from Ennis, if he thought he had found someone with commitment.......
But I can't ever see him NOT coming to Ennis when Ennis wants to see him.
He really did Not know how to Quit him, and I don't think he ever could.
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I think that Jack was slowly getting more and more frustrated by Ennis' unavailability (emotionally and physically) and began to try and find someone else to replace him, someone more available who could cater to his needs, but ultimately realized that even if this new person was more willing to get together he just wasn't Ennis and nobody else ever could be. As much as the Jack/Ennis situation wasn't ideal it was better than being without the one he truly loved. Being in the worst situation possible with the person you love (Ennis) is better than in being the best situation without them...
If you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it
*sigh*
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Probably was on some level, like
Toadily rightly quoted ...
-- Dad says it "didn't happen" bringing the other guy up there.
And JAck finally blurts out "I wish I knew how to quit you" he couldn't.
And also "sometimes i miss you so much I can't stand it"
...after 20 years and not so much time together!! It is hard on a relationship!...but i still think that if Ennis had said yes to his little darlin' ...20 or 25 years later, Jack would have left everything to be with his Ennis!!!
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In my own mind, I can't ever see jack being able to give up or quit Ennis.
I can however see him starting a relationship with someone else, and I can see him being more like Ennis, in possibly being harder to get for them to get together. Maybe more as a petty punishment for Ennis making it difficult for them to get together towards the end.
I can see Jack making substitutions for Ennis when he had to, and I can see him actually divorcing Lureen and starting a relationship with ??? BUT I still see him making the same excuses, and taking the same time to be with Ennis--just like he did with Lureen--I can see him wanting to and even partially trying to wean himself away from Ennis, if he thought he had found someone with commitment.......
But I can't ever see him NOT coming to Ennis when Ennis wants to see him.
He really did Not know how to Quit him, and I don't think he ever could.
I can also see Jack starting to take things to another level with someone like Ennis, but knowing how Ennis felt about Jack's Mexico trips, Jack would have had to keep this other relationship hidden. If Ennis were to find out, it would result in an unimaginably difficult and complex situation for the author in how to handle this in the story. But I do think that the 'two skins in one' analogy would make it very difficult for the author to make Ennis and Jack break up entirely. They are just too much into each other. The only likely outcome for such a complication would be to bring about the death of either Ennis or Jack (or both). In this case, we come to a resolution very similar to the story in its current form.
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I think that Jack was slowly getting more and more frustrated by Ennis' unavailability (emotionally and physically) and began to try and find someone else to replace him, someone more available who could cater to his needs, but ultimately realized that even if this new person was more willing to get together he just wasn't Ennis and nobody else ever could be. As much as the Jack/Ennis situation wasn't ideal it was better than being without the one he truly loved. Being in the worst situation possible with the person you love (Ennis) is better than in being the best situation without them...
If you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it
*sigh*
I love the way you bring that cruel phrase of Ennis' into the above argument. A very convincing argument, in my opinion.
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Much of the dialogue in the final fight scene is very enigmatical.
Which I like don't get me wrong...
For instance when Ennis says what he doens't know if he came to know
it could get Jack killed, was that foreboding? Or was it a threat?
Also when Jack says something like "know this even if you don't know the rest" did
he mean Mexico or was this alluding to how they don't really articulate what is
going on, all the repression and the L word.
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Much of the dialogue in the final fight scene is very enigmatical.
Which I like don't get me wrong...
For instance when Ennis says what he doens't know if he came to know
it could get Jack killed, was that foreboding? Or was it a threat?
Also when Jack says something like "know this even if you don't know the rest" did
he mean Mexico or was this alluding to how they don't really articulate what is
going on, all the repression and the L word.
Toadily, your comments are very insightful. In fact, like you, I also had interpreted the sentence about Jack getting killed as ambiguous. All this only adds to the depth of the narrative, and insightful moviegoers who like to do a bit of thinking about what they see invariably get dragged deeper into the hidden possibilities/meanings of the story (as we all are at the moment!)
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The last time that Jack and Ennis are together is the beginning of the end. Ennis makes it clear to Jack that the few stolen moments they have together on BBM is all he will ever get: he can't give him more. And then, Ennis tells him that their next meeting has to be postponed until later on in the fall, maybe sometime in November. To me, Jack's cowboy dreams with Ennis are shattered (the flashback to that first summer, Ennis riding off on horseback when actually he's driving away with a trailer full of horses, etc). Jack just watches Ennis pull off, heartbroken. He subsequently visits his parents (more likely his mother who is the only other person who ever loved him and that could give him some comfort). And the rest is really sad...
I came to the same conclusion after the second viewing of the film
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The last time that Jack and Ennis are together is the beginning of the end. Ennis makes it clear to Jack that the few stolen moments they have together on BBM is all he will ever get: he can't give him more. And then, Ennis tells him that their next meeting has to be postponed until later on in the fall, maybe sometime in November. To me, Jack's cowboy dreams with Ennis are shattered (the flashback to that first summer, Ennis riding off on horseback when actually he's driving away with a trailer full of horses, etc). Jack just watches Ennis pull off, heartbroken. He subsequently visits his parents (more likely his mother who is the only other person who ever loved him and that could give him some comfort). And the rest is really sad...
I came to the same conclusion after the second viewing of the film
So you do think that they would pull apart (assuming Jack had lived)? Your comment about 'the beginning of the end' echoes the words of one of the reviewers in the NY Times. This phrase suggested (in my mind) that is was a prelude to the end one way or the other (death or no death.) Too sad to contemplate.
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Much of the dialogue in the final fight scene is very enigmatical.
Which I like don't get me wrong...
For instance when Ennis says what he doens't know if he came to know
it could get Jack killed, was that foreboding? Or was it a threat?
Also when Jack says something like "know this even if you don't know the rest" did
he mean Mexico or was this alluding to how they don't really articulate what is
going on, all the repression and the L word.
I always felt that Ennis was definately threatening Jack at that point. I think he was like a lot of hard headed, hot tempered men---who tend to react to threats to their relationships with violence. The fights behind the dance hall type things.
IF Jack were going with other men, that threatened the committment that Ennis felt the two shared. Because Ennis NEVER cheated on Jack except with his wife, who was no threat to Jack-the fact that Jack may be straying---would bring out the violence of reaction in a man like Ennis. He grew up fighting, it is how he kept control of things. And I do believe he did threaten Jack, and I think Jack knew it too--and he wanted Ennis to realize he needed more anyway.
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I always felt that Ennis was definately threatening Jack at that point. I think he was like a lot of hard headed, hot tempered men---who tend to react to threats to their relationships with violence. The fights behind the dance hall type things.
IF Jack were going with other men, that threatened the committment that Ennis felt the two shared. Because Ennis NEVER cheated on Jack except with his wife, who was no threat to Jack-the fact that Jack may be straying---would bring out the violence of reaction in a man like Ennis. He grew up fighting, it is how he kept control of things. And I do believe he did threaten Jack, and I think Jack knew it too--and he wanted Ennis to realize he needed more anyway.
Hello ranchgal. I agree that this is most probably the primary interpretation, as this is how Jack had viewed it -- if we recall his response in both the screenplay and the original story:
Jack to Ennis: ...Measure the fu**in short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and then tell me you'll kill me for needin it and not hardly never gettin it...
But I do believe there is an element of foreboding and second meaning embedded in Ennis' 'threat'. This multilayering of possible/probable meanings is why I think both the story and the film haunt us in so many ways that we don't always understand.
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I think the information "blurted out" my Jack's father is more indicative of his lack of character than that of historical fact. The father seems rather untrustworthy and my thought is that he wanted to be hurtful to Ennis by implying that another man was present in Jack's life.
I fondly recall a Tagalog nursery rhyme that pretty well sums this up. I'll share it when I have more time.
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I think the information "blurted out" my Jack's father is more indicative of his lack of character than that of historical fact. The father seems rather untrustworthy and my thought is that he wanted to be hurtful to Ennis by implying that another man was present in Jack's life.
I fondly recall a Tagalog nursery rhyme that pretty well sums this up. I'll share it when I have more time.
Actually thnk of the time line, it must have been Oct when Jack died, cause Ennis was checking in about Nov. in the card when he wrote. And the dad said last SPRING Jack was going to bring this guy up and it didn't happen. So I think that means it didn't happen.
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Actually thnk of the time line, it must have been Oct when Jack died, cause Ennis was checking in about Nov. in the card when he wrote. And the dad said last SPRING Jack was going to bring this guy up and it didn't happen. So I think that means it didn't happen.
It was very sharp of you to catch that, Toadily! It's also a very comforting to know that Ennis always came first in Jack's mind. Thanks for posting
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Actually thnk of the time line, it must have been Oct when Jack died, cause Ennis was checking in about Nov. in the card when he wrote. And the dad said last SPRING Jack was going to bring this guy up and it didn't happen. So I think that means it didn't happen.
It was very sharp of you to catch that, Toadily! It's also a very comforting to know that Ennis always came first in Jack's mind. Thanks for posting
I think it was a little earlier than Oct. I think that it happened not long after the last visit to his parents at Lightning Flat.
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I think the information "blurted out" my Jack's father is more indicative of his lack of character than that of historical fact. The father seems rather untrustworthy and my thought is that he wanted to be hurtful to Ennis by implying that another man was present in Jack's life.
I fondly recall a Tagalog nursery rhyme that pretty well sums this up. I'll share it when I have more time.
During my last viewing of the movie, I did get the impression somehow that Jack just wanted a secondary anchor -- a sort of surrogate reference point. Jack wanted so very much to share a life with someone else, but he knew that Spring that to force Ennis to do this would be too difficult. I think he was resigned to the fact that he would never convince Ennis to live with him -- he probably concluded from their last meeting that THAT would have been hurtful to Ennis -- hurtful to keep on pushing Ennis and accusing him of not wanting a shared life. Thus, he probably was trying to have things both ways: continue the relationship on Ennis' terms, but start building a shared life with someone else.
It is important to note that in the screenplay, Ennis is explicitly referred to as Jack's 'OTHER HALF' in the scene when he watches Ennis drive away during what was to be their last meeting. It is clear that in the minds of the screenplay writers, Ennis and Jack were two halves of one being, with or without the trappings of a shared life!
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tpe, I have argued your point often on the IMDB theads. I think Jack either would have tried to have it both ways (no pun intended) with his ranch neighbor and still seeing Ennis. This also could be a tool Jack was using to try to provoke Ennis to enough jealousy to force Ennis' hand. I also am open to the suggestion that Jack mentions the "ranch neighbor" to his folks because he is temporarily bitter at that moment after the last meeting/confrontation.
And I still hold to this position for "story Jack" and "story Ennis."
However -
Other posters on the IMDB threads got me, on my 4th viewing of the film, to take a good look at the expression on "film Jack's" face immediately after the flashback scene, where we cut to the present day and see Jack's face watching his "other half" drive away.
I have to admit that Jake G's look on Jack's face is one mixed of the following: anger, sadness, resignation AND determination.
That brought me to the idea that perhaps "film Jack" was indeed preparing to find a way to "quit" Ennis.
Not that I like it. Not that I think that would have been "appropriate" behavior for "film Jack." But I now have to admit the possibility.
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tpe, I have argued your point often on the IMDB theads. I think Jack either would have tried to have it both ways (no pun intended) with his ranch neighbor and still seeing Ennis. This also could be a tool Jack was using to try to provoke Ennis to enough jealousy to force Ennis' hand. I also am open to the suggestion that Jack mentions the "ranch neighbor" to his folks because he is temporarily bitter at that moment after the last meeting/confrontation.
And I still hold to this position for "story Jack" and "story Ennis."
However -
Other posters on the IMDB threads got me, on my 4th viewing of the film, to take a good look at the expression on "film Jack's" face immediately after the flashback scene, where we cut to the present day and see Jack's face watching his "other half" drive away.
I have to admit that Jake G's look on Jack's face is one mixed of the following: anger, sadness, resignation AND determination.
That brought me to the idea that perhaps "film Jack" was indeed preparing to find a way to "quit" Ennis.
Not that I like it. Not that I think that would have been "appropriate" behavior for "film Jack." But I now have to admit the possibility.
borger1582, I do agree that Jack's final shot can indeed be interpreted as a look of determination.
However, I am sure you will agree with me that one statement in proximity to that scene makes it difficult to envision a final break: I wish I knew how to quit you.
The statement shows that Jack did not know how it was possible for him to live wthout some connection with Ennis -- tenuous as that connection may be.
That Spring, at his parents' house, he probably wrestled with the possibility of how he could quit Ennis. But the proximity of his parents' town to Riverton (where Ennis resided) would certainly NOT have isolated Jack if he did want to get over his relationship with Ennis. Settling in Texas would have been a more effective strategy!
Hence, like you, I also suspect that this could possibly be interpreted as a way of making Ennis jealous -- enough to draw him into a commitment if he did so love Jack. Or then again, would this strategy backfire (think about Ennis' threat to Jack)?
This is speculation. But the above arguments imply that Jack was probably not 'over' with his 'other half.'
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I cannot help summarizing my above argument of the endurance of Jack's love for Ennis with a poem by the Greek poet Cavafy. In it, the protagonist, even in the midst of trying to forget a lover who has left him, cannot forget that love. In some sense, I think of Jack along similar lines.
In the Tavernas
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I didn't want to stay
in Alexandria. Tamides left me;
he went off with the Prefect's son to earn himself
a villa on the Nile, a mansion in the city.
It wouldn't have been decent for me to stay in Alexandria.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I live a vile life, devoted to cheap debauchery.
The one thing that saves me,
like durable beauty, like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh, is this: Tamides,
most exquisite of young men, was mine for two years,
mine completely and not for a house or a villa on the Nile.
Constantine P. Cavafy
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Hopeless romantic that I am.
Jack reamined so in love with Ennis just as he was from the beginning until the day he died. And, Ennis will be in love with Jack until he dies.
Jack + Ennis 4-ever
Carly Simon said, " ... suffering was the only thing that made me feel I was alive..."
Joan Jett said, " ... love and pain can be one and the same..."
Kate Hepburn said, "... how can I stop when it's what I live for?"
Jim says Jack loves Ennis forever and ever...
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tpe, your statements:
However, I am sure you will agree with me that one statement in proximity to that scene makes it difficult to envision as final break: I wish I knew how to quit you.
The statement shows that Jack did not know how it was possible for him to live without some connection with Ennis -- tenuous as that connection may be.
That Spring, at his parents' house, he probably wrestled with the possibility of how he could quit Ennis. But the proximity of his parents' town to Riverton (where Ennis resided) would certainly NOT have isolated Jack if he did want to get over his relationship with Ennis. Settling in Texas would have been a more effective strategy!
Hence, like you, I also suspect that this could possibly be interpreted as a way of making Ennis jealous -- enough to draw him into a commitment if he did so love Jack. Or then again, would this strategy backfire (think about Ennis' threat to Jack)?
YES! Not only the "I wish I knew how to quit you" BUT ALSO the fact that when Ennis breaks down, immediately after Jack says this, Jack goes to him to comfort him - and has to go to him twice because Ennis pushes him away.
But I agree that if Jack had been trying to use the "ranch neighbor" to make Ennis jealous, it would have backfired - because Ennis was already so jealous. I think it's possible that Jack would have tried to live a double life - getting what he "needed" and still going to see Ennis. It's not like Ennis was likely to go up to Lightning Flat and drop in - although who knows what he might have done if Jack had been back in Wyoming, or if Ennis suspected "unfaithfulness"?
BTW, pretty amazing poem!
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Hopeless romantic that I am.
Jack reamined so in love with Ennis just as he was from the beginning until the day he died. And, Ennis will be in love with Jack until he dies.
Jack + Ennis 4-ever
Carly Simon said, " ... suffering was the only thing that made me feel I was alive..."
Joan Jett said, " ... love and pain can be one and the same..."
Kate Hepburn said, "... how can I stop when it's what I live for?"
Jim says Jack loves Ennis forever and ever...
I tend to side with you on the issue. I think that in moments of self doubt and frustration at his situation Jack may have tried to find solace with another man but finally realized that, no matter how hard the situation was, Ennis would be the only one who he felt truly at place with. To quote Maroon 5 (I know, shoot me now)
Love isn't always rainbows and butterflies
It’s compromise that moves us along
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natalia and borger1582, I think jimnick says it most succinctly: 'Jack loves Ennis forever and ever...'
I think most of us here can live with this!
Indeed, it is hard for me to imagine that it could be any different.
Nevertheless, the fact that other people think otherwise (as borger1582 points out) interests me a great deal also. It would be most helpful to hear from them expound a bit more on this particular viewpoint...
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To me I interpreted as yet another tradegy of the script. I think after the final meeting and Jack goes into his dream world he remembers the perfect moment where Ennis hugged him from behind and hums a lullaby into his ears ... Jack is desperately in love. But he also remembers that while Ennis is there hugginh him Ennis can not bring himself to hug him from the front - he is in denial about his feelings. I then interpreted it that for the next 20 years Jack tried to coax him out of his shell but finally felt like he had failed (You used to come away easy. Now its like seeing the pope). I suspect then that he felt obliged to move on from Ennis for his own sake even though he still loved him (this sort of thing happens to people all the time). In an effort to move himself on I suspect that he put himself back on the market, as it were, but I reckon that were Ennis to have said those three magic words I think Jack would have waited until the end of the world.
The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...
Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.
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Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.
No..now I am feeling really sad. :'( :'( :'( You nailed it.
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Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.
No..now I am feeling really sad. :'( :'( :'( You nailed it.
You definitely did. That thought was one of the first that made me cry after my first viewing. And The Wings just came on my iTunes random shuffle :'(
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To me I interpreted as yet another tradegy of the script. I think after the final meeting and Jack goes into his dream world he remembers the perfect moment where Ennis hugged him from behind and hums a lullaby into his ears ... Jack is desperately in love. But he also remembers that while Ennis is there hugginh him Ennis can not bring himself to hug him from the front - he is in denial about his feelings. I then interpreted it that for the next 20 years Jack tried to coax him out of his shell but finally felt like he had failed (You used to come away easy. Now its like seeing the pope). I suspect then that he felt obliged to move on from Ennis for his own sake even though he still loved him (this sort of thing happens to people all the time). In an effort to move himself on I suspect that he put himself back on the market, as it were, but I reckon that were Ennis to have said those three magic words I think Jack would have waited until the end of the world.
The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...
Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.
:) Once again thank you...I love reading your posts...this one makes me sad though...because I never thought about Jack's death like you did...Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him. Do you really think so? I wanna cry now... :'( This would start a great new thread!!!
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The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...
Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.
Ouch! I'm not trying to argue really here, I just don't want to hurt this bad, so I'm gonna say the following: in the story (and the screenplay side directions) the lines "torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved," give me some hope that Jack was not doubting Ennis' LOVE for him, just Ennis' ability to COMMIT to Jack and give him everything he wants (needs?) to have from Ennis.
I had my 5th viewing, with a close friend, on Friday evening. I changed my mind slightly regarding the look on Jack's face after he flashes back to the "HUG" as I call it, and the "present day" Jack is watching Ennis drive away. I saw LESS determination to leave, and more sadness and yearning. I also tried carefully to catch what Ennis says when he is in Jack's arms, which dialog is NOT in the screenplay from the "Story to Screenplay" book, and I believe now he says "Jack I can't stand this anymore" or "Jack I can't stand to live like this anymore." Now some at the IMDB threads say Ennis says "I can't stand to lose anything more." I prefer the "I can't stand this" for the reason that it reflects back to the scene by the river during their first reunion in four years, when Ennis says the famous "If you can't fix it you got a stand it," and when Jack asks How Long Ennis says, "As long as we can ride her. There ain't no reins on this one." Ennis' whole conception of how he can handle this relationship is also beginning to crumble at this point.
OK went longer than intended. I can't say I disagree with you, stickler, but I don't want to agree with you, because it makes me sad. But I think many of us would agree that the way this film makes us sad is something we like!
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Jack knew Ennis loved him. If he hadn't known he would not have been so very frustrated over it. He knew, it didn't help, but he knew and he didn't die wondering if Ennis loved him. He died without Ennis with him, propably wouldn't have died at all if Ennis had been with him, and that its the stone that Ennis must carry in his heart for the rest of his life. But, Jack knew Ennis loved him and him alone. Couldn't love someone for twenty years and not now it.
Jim thinks too much.
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Jim thinks too much.
No you don't! ;D
But I'll have to think about this some more...maybe read the short story again ;)
The last meeting is the most dificult one for me to watch now. And when Ennis get's the postcard...oh boy! :'(
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Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.
No..now I am feeling really sad. :'( :'( :'( You nailed it.
I would like to think that he did not doubt Ennis. I would like to think that, at worst, Jack resigned himself to never ever sharing a life together. I think Ennis was, in this sense, an unattainable ideal for Jack. But this did not stop Jack for feeling that he would never lose Ennis' love. The fact that Ennis broke down after Jack said 'I wish I knew how to quit you.' shows how much Ennis was hurt by this. He loved Jack terribly, in his own way. But I doubt there was anything else in Ennis that equalled that love for Jack.
Am I a hopeless romantic?
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:) Once again thank you...I love reading your posts...this one makes me sad though...because I never thought about Jack's death like you did...Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him. Do you really think so? I wanna cry now... :'( This would start a great new thread!!!
Thankyou Frog 123
Perhaps I should modify my point slightly in light of the previous responses. I suppose that Jack new that Ennis had deep feelings for him ... how could he not have given their 20 year relationship? Perhaps I think that Jack just got to the point where he doubted whether Ennis, with all his angst and fear, could find it within him to realise his feelings for Jack. I sense that for the preceeding 20 years Jack was in an emotional limbo not be able to bear to let go but going through a quiet agony by holding on. During such situations I suspect that its reasonable for Jack to question whether Ennis loved him enough.
Whats particularly interesting in this film is the interpretations that it brings up. With psychology there's a branch called NLP and one of the cornerstones of it is basically that people do not see the world as it is but rather as they see themselves ... Peoples perceptions are shaped by their experiences and when someone offers an opinion they are not talking about you or a film but rather they are talking about their hopes, their fears ... their dreams. To this end its quite likely that different people see different thingsin the film and experience it in different ways. So please, forgive me if my perceptions seem at odds to your own.
Another point that I think about is that its almost part of the human condition to hope for things to end well ... we want them to end well to gain closure. Thats why so many Hollywood films pander to our tastes. We leave vindicated and can sleep easily at night. In a previous post I mentioned Flaubert's Sentimental Education ... and to quote 'in it he paints a picture where anticipation is the purest form of pleasure and the most reliable and that while the things that happen to you can invariably dissapoint the things that never happen to you never dim, never fade, they're always engraved in your heart with a sort of sweet sadness' ... We want Jack and Ennis to end up together ... we want Jack to know of Ennis' love for him and vice versa ... that way we would get closure and the film would end but because we dont know, because we doubt, the film haunts us and is left unresolved. :-\
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and to quote 'in it he paints a picture where anticipation is the purest form of pleasure and the most reliable and that while the things that happen to you can invariably dissapoint the things that never happen to you never dim, never fade, they're always engraved in your heart with a sort of sweet sadness' ... We want Jack and Ennis to end up together ... we want Jack to know of Ennis' love for him and vice versa ... that way we would get closure and the film would end but because we dont know, because we doubt, the film haunts us and is left unresolved. :-\
OK, this is an excellent point, not just to the nature of this film and story and why it haunts so many of us so powerfully, but also internally to the story, and I'm trying to make this point on two levels. It also doesn't sit well with me, and I or someone else made this point literally weeks ago now over at IMDB . . .
Jack and Ennis, if they had ranched up together, might not have stayed together . . .
And here's the thing on that - even though they were happy on Brokeback, it wasn't daily life reality and probably couldn't be even if society had let them be together. Furthermore, although they lived together while they were young for a few months, by twenty years on, Jack had idealized (and possibly Ennis as well) memories from BBM - so Jack's anticipation of living with Ennis may indeed have been "greater than the fact," to the point where disappointment and bitterness would have soured what they had.
However, since it was infrequent, maybe it was somehow more pleasurable - and Jack's inability to obtain what he ostensibly wanted most meant he could never be disappointed by the reality . . .
You know, it's late here on the west coast, I'm tired, and I don't think I really believe a word of this hogwash I just wrote . . . but I'll leave it up because it should result in some interesting responses.
Is it this board or IMDB where there's a "would Jack have cheated on Ennis if they had lived together" thread?
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Ok this topic has really got my mind ticking over and I've been thinking about it all day at work (with a rather vacant expression on my face). I think it takes borger's response into consideration and I hope its a little more optimistic :)
This is quite complicated and I hope that I haven't made a dogs dinner of it ...
Here goes ...
These views take some of their cues from 'The Road Less Travelled' by M.Scott Peck. According to M.Scott Peck the word 'love' has historically always been a verb in the English language. Therefore, in this light, love has always been something that you DO rather than something that you FEEL. According to this view point the feeling of 'falling into love' that people experience isn't so much love but rather something that is called cathexis. In recent times, however, organisations such as Hollywood have blurred the distinction between the two concepts so as to paint cathexis as love. Another reason that cathexis and love are so blurred is that one often accompanies the other whenever it is present ...for example upon developing cathexis for a person your emotions change ... you become less rational and see them as being perfect individuals. This causes you to treat them very well and to DO thoughtful and compassionate things for them and, in doing so, begin to foster a loving relationship. An important factor in this is that, in most couples, cathexis wears off after a period of time ... people often begin to lust after their partners less than they used too. This is perfectly normal since cathexis appears to be quite a base (but pleasurable emotion) geared towards the propagation of the species. When the cathexis wears off it is left to the love within the relationship to sustain it ... and depending upon the people involved this can either spell the death knell to the relationship or to represent the onset of a purer relationship based more on love. The toss side to this is that when you act in a loving way towards another individual you concern for their well being begins to develop a cathexis towards that person. Under this viewpoint whether Jack and Ennis's relationship flourished after they committed would largely depend upon how they weathered to transition between cathexis to love. (Personally, given the depth of their passion for one another I think that they would have been a very loving couple and would have had a long and happy relationship potentially)
This then links back to the previous musing ... I now think that Jack both cathected Ennis and loved him. Jack was totally besotted with Ennis (cathexis) and was prepared to sacrifice to be with him (love). Ennis on the other hand apears to me to have cathected Jack in that he held very strong feelings but unfortuneately, due to his environment, angst and fears, was unable to sacrifice his fears and try to create a life together (in other words, to act in a loving way). To me this left a gaping hole in Jack which would explain why he felt he needed to move on with his life ... he doubted Ennis' ability to love him. The turning point with Ennis though is in the final scene with his daughter ... I sense that at that point he finally reached a point where he would have been prepared to throw asidw his fear and embrace a life with Jack ... and finally been able to provide him with the love Jack so desperately craved.
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Not familiar with the word "cathexis" although from the context it seems comparable to (although apparently not equated to) "romance" or "lust." Maybe it's the connection between romance and lust.
Very thoughtful post, of course. If you are correct, then Jack loved Ennis, but Ennis never really loved Jack until the very end. I am applying the definition of sacrificing for another person as the defining quality of love.
HOWEVER, that is in perspective of Jack and Ennis "ranching up" together. What about the fact that Ennis used to just quit his (beloved) ranch jobs in order to have time to go on "fishing trips" with Jack. Is that enough sacrifice to label what he had "love" rather than "cathexis"? Did Ennis give Jack, in the ultimate analysis, everything he had to give? And is love OR cathexis appropriate when you give things you shouldn't give, that you have no right to give. Film Ennis would not give up his relationship with his girls to be with Jack. Film Jack would have given up (in my opinion) most important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis. If I'm correct in this (and I understand it's a mighty big "If"), can we possibly call this a love to support?
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Not familiar with the word "cathexis" although from the context it seems comparable to (although apparently not equated to) "romance" or "lust." Maybe it's the connection between romance and lust.
Very thoughtful post, of course. If you are correct, then Jack loved Ennis, but Ennis never really loved Jack until the very end. I am applying the definition of sacrificing for another person as the defining quality of love.
HOWEVER, that is in perspective of Jack and Ennis "ranching up" together. What about the fact that Ennis used to just quit his (beloved) ranch jobs in order to have time to go on "fishing trips" with Jack. Is that enough sacrifice to label what he had "love" rather than "cathexis"? Did Ennis give Jack, in the ultimate analysis, everything he had to give? And is love OR cathexis appropriate when you give things you shouldn't give, that you have no right to give. Film Ennis would not give up his relationship with his girls to be with Jack. Film Jack would have given up (in my opinion) most important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis. If I'm correct in this (and I understand it's a mighty big "If"), can we possibly call this a love to support?
Hmmm good response.
I think cathexis is the feeling of 'falling in love' that people get. Evolutionarily it serves a great purpose ... against all logic you invest your soul into another person. Its a lovely experience but different I feel to the aforementioned idea of 'love'.
I take your opinion of the ranching and giving up of job thing yes ... I suppose Ennis did sacrifice a lot in his life for Jack. My main thought was that it appears to me that Jack needed that regular close contact from Ennis to feel loved ('I'm not like you Ennis, I can't make it on a few high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year ...). I'm not trying to paint Ennis as a bad guy at all (I think that they were both very much the victim in the story) but it seems what he was prepared to give wasn't quite enough for what Jack needed in a partner. I kinda think that in order satisfy Jack, Ennis had to push himself out of his safety boundary and put himself in what he considered to be a terrifying position (ie living with a man (which was quite justified given the context of the rest of the story)). Anyway, in the previous postings I wasn't so much trying to suggest that Ennis didn't love Jack but rather I can percieve why Jack would feel unloved by Ennis. ... I suppose from Ennis' point of view he was doing everything he could for Jack ... he seemed to feel like he was offering his entire soul to him (I can't stand this anymore Jack) ... while at the same time Jack felt that Ennis was giving him enough (for whatever reason) ... and hence the fargument and fight in the final scene together ... ????
(Incidently I cant help wondering why, if Jack was so in love with Ennis and wanted to be around him why he didnt just move up to live around Ennis anyway ... by the time Ennis was divorced he would have had more freedom anyway and by doing so Jack could have taken more control of the situation by himself?)
With regards to the last part of your question that is ultimately a very moral question and I dont really feel qualified to pass a overall opinion on it (Indeed regarding the whole thing I'm not trying to pass a moral judgement on anything but to rather suggest how I perceive the situation to be). Fundamentally its the same question that straight couples, who are going through divorce, have to ask themselves all the time ... to stay together for the kids or to move on... However, regarding Ennis and his daughters, while in the early years I can see how that argument would stick in the later years Ennis was divorced from Alma ... the girls were grown up ... and after his argument with Alma (you dont go there to fish) he didnt see them for a prolonged period of time anyhow. Even saying that, on his say so Jack would have moved up to live with to him so that, in effect, Ennis could have had his cake and eaten it. My feeling is that Ennis' primary fear was his own homosexuality and that he used his daughters as an excuse not to move in with Jack. Jack on the other does appear to be willing to sacrifice important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis (again I'm not inclined to suggest whether that is morally good or bad) ...
Basically what I'm trying to say is that because of Ennis's fears he was unable to provide Jack with what he needed (and hence the love he felt he needed) for a relationship. It appears that (to me) the last scene Ennis had finally come to terms with his feelings (Jack I swear .... (I love you - I presume)) and that he would be prepared to move in with Jack were he to miraculously reappear. ... I'm simply trying to suggest my interpetation of their feelings rather than passing a judgement on whether those feelings are admirable or not.
Anyway ... sorry that this is so garbled ... these are very deep emotions and I sometimes fimd them hard to interpret properly :-s
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We need Annie Proulx on that one..I wanna know what she meant when she wrote it!!! :-\
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I don't believe that Jack would have had to sacrifice his relationship with his son to be with Ennis. Consider that the divorce rate (US) is over fifty percent, there must be a great number of parents that don't live with their children. It could be cinsidered one and the same argument: Ennis (apparently) didn't love Jack because they didn't live together, and Jack (apparently) wouldn't love his child because they wouldn't have lived together had he been with Ennis. I don't believe it either way. Love is stronger than the distance between people.
This thread is getting really strung out...
Yes. It would be interesting to hear Annie Proulx has to say about it, ... and us...
and that's what I think...
Jim
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This thread is getting really strung out...
Jim,
What does it mean..I don't understand this expression?
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I don't know how to explain it. It is supposed to be a pun. A play on the words thread and string (strung). Strung out is like taking something to the Nth degree. Or, a person can be strung out in love, or a worst case, strung out on drugs. Does this make any sense at all?
Jim
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I don't know how to explain it. It is supposed to be a pun. A play on the words thread and string (strung). Strung out is like taking something to the Nth degree. Or, a person can be strung out in love, or a worst case, strung out on drugs. Does this make any sense at all?
Jim
ahhhhhhhhhh...ok for the play on words...sometimes I miss out on english expressions... ;D can't help it if i'm a Frog!LOL
Thankx
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Point taken ...
:)
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Point taken ...
:)
;)
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The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...
Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.
Ouch! I'm not trying to argue really here, I just don't want to hurt this bad, so I'm gonna say the following: in the story (and the screenplay side directions) the lines "torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved," give me some hope that Jack was not doubting Ennis' LOVE for him, just Ennis' ability to COMMIT to Jack and give him everything he wants (needs?) to have from Ennis.
I had my 5th viewing, with a close friend, on Friday evening. I changed my mind slightly regarding the look on Jack's face after he flashes back to the "HUG" as I call it, and the "present day" Jack is watching Ennis drive away. I saw LESS determination to leave, and more sadness and yearning. I also tried carefully to catch what Ennis says when he is in Jack's arms, which dialog is NOT in the screenplay from the "Story to Screenplay" book, and I believe now he says "Jack I can't stand this anymore" or "Jack I can't stand to live like this anymore." Now some at the IMDB threads say Ennis says "I can't stand to lose anything more." I prefer the "I can't stand this" for the reason that it reflects back to the scene by the river during their first reunion in four years, when Ennis says the famous "If you can't fix it you got a stand it," and when Jack asks How Long Ennis says, "As long as we can ride her. There ain't no reins on this one." Ennis' whole conception of how he can handle this relationship is also beginning to crumble at this point.
OK went longer than intended. I can't say I disagree with you, stickler, but I don't want to agree with you, because it makes me sad. But I think many of us would agree that the way this film makes us sad is something we like!
I couldn't tell completely what was said at that last meeting too during the hug, I think you are correct with "I can't stand this anymore" which is really sad for Ennis to look back on that being his last words to him. Ugh. But if Jack did bring that guy up to his Dad's that might explain why he would try to find someone else.
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I got to see the movie again but the first time I saw it I could have sworn that Ennis perceptively chokes up when John Twist tells Ennis that Jack was talking about bringing ANOTHER man to the ranch and set up a cabin there to help. did Jack finally give up on Ennis and found another to take his place in his? Is Ennis broken up momentarily by this news?
But: John Twist also says "But like most of Jack's ideas it never come to pass"
Leaving me to speculate that yea, sure, Jack may have said something like that to his father but " it never come to pass"
Someone once said: "If you want to be sure that they (insert boy-girl friend, lover, companion etc here) keep interested in you, make sure there is someone else interested in you also" or something to that effect.
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You are right. Ennis' expression changes a bit, and he gets a little more welled up when Jack's father mentioned the other fella. If you notice, his nose flares up a bit just briefly when that happens...
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Someone once said: "If you want to be sure that they (insert boy-girl friend, lover, companion etc here) keep interested in you, make sure there is someone else interested in you also" or something to that effect.
Awww that seems like a really broken and hurt thing to say to me ... :-[
Re the John Twist things never coming to pass thing I thought that was refering to the fact that Jack died before his plan came to fruition. I found that a really sad aspect of the film too ... when Jack was talking to Ennis and he said that nothing ever worked out the way he wanted it too ... I felt real bad for him. Kinda makes me wanna give him a hug ...
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stickler, I'm not trying to make you sad. I think it is a small aspect of hamanity (some people call them games) but there is a phenomenon that when we see someone we might have noticed casusally over a period of time not taking interest in them until the time we see them together with someone else. Then people sometimes ask: What was it in that person that I missed? Our interest is now piqued in them.
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stickler, I'm not trying to make you sad. I think it is a small aspect of hamanity (some people call them games) but there is a phenomenon that when we see someone we might have noticed casusally over a period of time not taking interest in them until the time we see them together with someone else. Then people sometimes ask: What was it in that person that I missed? Our interest is now piqued in them.
I think you're right. It's called being a human being.
Jim
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Yeah I know .. and it doesnt really make me that sad.
Although I kinda think that if someone says things like that it usually means that they have been hurt in the past becuase someone has rejected them until they kinda moved on with their lives. When I think about the film and the messages that it passes it makes me think how fragile yet enduring love can be. And that, given that time will one day catch up with you, that its a shame that such games exist (amazingly hypocritical of myself too probably given that I've been party to such things in the past but ho hum)
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Yeah I know .. and it doesnt really make me that sad.
Although I kinda think that if someone says things like that it usually means that they have been hurt in the past becuase someone has rejected them until they kinda moved on with their lives. When I think about the film and the messages that it passes it makes me think how fragile yet enduring love can be. And that, given that time will one day catch up with you, that its a shame that such games exist (amazingly hypocritical of myself too probably given that I've been party to such things in the past but ho hum)
Friend, don't be down or hard on yourself. It's how we learn.
Jim
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(Incidently I cant help wondering why, if Jack was so in love with Ennis and wanted to be around him why he didnt just move up to live around Ennis anyway ... by the time Ennis was divorced he would have had more freedom anyway and by doing so Jack could have taken more control of the situation by himself?)
With regards to the last part of your question that is ultimately a very moral question and I dont really feel qualified to pass a overall opinion on it (Indeed regarding the whole thing I'm not trying to pass a moral judgement on anything but to rather suggest how I perceive the situation to be). Fundamentally its the same question that straight couples, who are going through divorce, have to ask themselves all the time ... to stay together for the kids or to move on... However, regarding Ennis and his daughters, while in the early years I can see how that argument would stick in the later years Ennis was divorced from Alma ... the girls were grown up ... and after his argument with Alma (you dont go there to fish) he didnt see them for a prolonged period of time anyhow. Even saying that, on his say so Jack would have moved up to live with to him so that, in effect, Ennis could have had his cake and eaten it. My feeling is that Ennis' primary fear was his own homosexuality and that he used his daughters as an excuse not to move in with Jack. Jack on the other does appear to be willing to sacrifice important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis (again I'm not inclined to suggest whether that is morally good or bad) ...
Basically what I'm trying to say is that because of Ennis's fears he was unable to provide Jack with what he needed (and hence the love he felt he needed) for a relationship. It appears that (to me) the last scene Ennis had finally come to terms with his feelings (Jack I swear .... (I love you - I presume)) and that he would be prepared to move in with Jack were he to miraculously reappear. ... I'm simply trying to suggest my interpetation of their feelings rather than passing a judgement on whether those feelings are admirable or not.
Anyway ... sorry that this is so garbled ... these are very deep emotions and I sometimes fimd them hard to interpret properly :-s
Sorry it's been so long since I've been around - also going to be on vaca for two weeks (lucky me, I got to work 17 hr days this week, LOL!)
Anyway, I think the answer to your first item (which is parenthetical) is Ennis' paranoia - having Jack around would have been too much of a temptation for Ennis (from the story 'can't hardly be decent together' - from story and film, 'this thing grabs a hold of us' and 'ain't no reins on this one.') - especially after his confrontation with Alma in the kitchen Ennis would have NOT been comfortable with Jack being that close, I'm thinking.
But your thought goes deeper, and I think appropriately so - I'm just beginning to pick up on this from the IMDB boards. Basically, Ennis is so homophobic that he's desperately, (pathologically?) afraid of his desires.
I might be willing to buy this, it'll take some thinking on.
And insightful (especially in terms of the story) about Ennis perhaps using the girls as an excuse, particularly after the divorce, although both the film and the story still seem to show an Ennis who really has no desire to expand his horizons by traveling or leaving the comfort of the familiar. Film Ennis was a more devoted father LATER in his life than story Ennis, which does pick at my theories that Ennis was somehow morally "superior" to Jack because he was gonna stay around for his girls . . .
Of course, in the film, Jack does suggest Ennis move to Texas when Ennis actually voices his paranoia to Jack; naturally Ennis responds with scorn and derision to Jack's suggestion . . .
I'm from a probably unpopular camp of thinkers now a days who actually believe that, absent abuse, it's generally better for parents to stay together for the children's sake until the youngest hits 18. Posting that though over at IMDB got me more abrasive responses than anything else I ever posted there - many from folks who sound like they were pretty hurt by their parents' conflict - but exceptions don't necessarily break a rule.
I would much rather Ennis kept Jack in his "sights" right after BBM and neither of them married; failing that, I would have liked them both to stay in the marriages (which Jack does, but Ennis doesn't, BUT I have to believe Jack would have divorced Lureen in a moment if Ennis made himself "available") until the youngest child of the three was 18 - then, have at it! But many people (understandably) feel they should have been together right after they reconnected. My problem with that view is it really makes Ennis the 'bad guy' and I'm not feeling like I want to saddle him with that - as you say, stickler, they are both victims, but to some extent, of their own poor choices.
Is it the Fine Young Cannibals who sing about if you've ever fallen in love with someone you shouldn't have fallen in love with?
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Stickler,
Just looked at another thread on this board and found I had said much the same thing (in less space!) that I just said above IN REPLY TO ANOTHER OF YOUR POSTS! LOL! I apologize, don't want you to think I'm browbeating you or anyone else! Too much work and not enough sleep!
I'll miss everyone's insightful posts for the next two weeks - going on a long car trip with my father - love him, but I'll be ready to communicate about BBM by the time I return. You all take care while I'm gone!
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Hmmm its not really for me to pass comment on what other people do in their married lives. Personally I can understand both sides of the coin with regards to keeping families together ... and its tragic to see them fail.
I agree that sometimes you could say its in the childs interest to maintain the nuclear family but I fear that that sometimes means that people spend 20 years of their lives really unhappy. I also think that two separate parents, who conduct themselves with integrity, and stick to the reality of their convictions can be a great role model for a child. It seems possible that having to separate but happy parents beats two together, unhappy and lonely ones ... they could seem more in line with their principles.
As I said ... its not for me to judge but I can perceive situations where both possibilities are 'best'. I guess I think that in an ideal situation everyone has gotta pursue happiness becuase its something tat happens together ... if one person is in emotional agony then everyone around them is bought down too ... Ennis's love of Jack and rejection of Alma ruined the best part of Alma's life too ... could she have not recaptured happiness sooner with somebody else?
Regarding 'E+J's' poor choices ... I feel that that is a little over harsh ... of course were they to choose differently things coulda worked out. However, at 19, in that environment the forces opposing that choice are tantamount to emotional suicide ... perhaps worse because you'd have no sympathy or support ... thats an awful lot of pressure to be under. I balked at it for about 10 years before I came out and I live in the reatively enlightend 2000's ... tis hard thing to do.
Similarly with Jack ... I can see where your coming from with him being morally inferior. My heart went out to him all the way through the film though. I kinda think that integrity and stuff takes a huge amount of strength to do - strength that needs to be built up through recieving love and nuturing ... if thats lacking (and I feel it was throughout Jacks life with the exception of Ennis) then its much harder to be that strong.
I llike your idea about ennis's homophobia. tis good and why I think that the girls were used as an excuse- especially in the later years. It still doesnt explain why Jack didnt try to move to be by Ennis and effectively forced himself onto him though?
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I don't know if Jack finally give up on Ennis... what I know is that Ennis loved more and more Jack and he upsets his live for him while Jack had the capability to organize his live (he marry a rich woman, he go to Mexico for sex, he look to other man). We can assume that Jack requirements in term of Ennis presence (and sexual activities) maybe bring him to looking for other mans; by this way he become exposed to social prejudgment... and.. it risk assassination (how Ennis predicted)... finally that's what happened: Jack was killed because hes homosexuality was near to be evident in his society (it maybe speculation.. but I'm sure of that)
I mean that Jack didn't protect his love with Ennis as Ennis do... I mean that Jack was...little egoist...
Jack death is death of love for Ennis...
If I was Jack I never betray Ennis, I accepted his ... absurd conditions.. because of I was in love with him and because I was sure of Ennis absolute, love
Baci
coguaro
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I don't know if Jack finally give up on Ennis... what I know is that Ennis loved more and more Jack and he upsets his live for him while Jack had the capability to organize his live (he marry a rich woman, he go to Mexico for sex, he look to other man). We can assume that Jack requirements in term of Ennis presence (and sexual activities) maybe bring him to looking for other mans; by this way he become exposed to social prejudgment... and.. it risk assassination (how Ennis predicted)... finally that's what happened: Jack was killed because hes homosexuality was near to be evident in his society (it maybe speculation.. but I'm sure of that)
I mean that Jack didn't protect his love with Ennis as Ennis do... I mean that Jack was...little egoist...
Jack death is death of love for Ennis...
If I was Jack I never betray Ennis, I accepted his ... absurd conditions.. because of I was in love with him and because I was sure of Ennis absolute, love
Baci
coguaro
Bravo!!!
That is exactly what I think. Looking at a 2+ hour movie and actually spending twenty years in love with someone are much different. Jack had to know that Ennis so loved him eternally.
Jim
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Jack death is death of love for Ennis...
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Are you all against me today?
The more I read on this board, the more I wanna cry!!!
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Here it goes for me:
Jack told us plain and clear: "I wish I knew...". He is telling us he can't leave Ennis, ever, no way. He stood there and took Ennis' threats and shoves without fighting back. And he comforted Ennis even though Ennis at first was pretty clear he didn't want comforting. This was Jack's clue to leave if he wanted, but he didn't. And finally, I keep going back to the beginning, he even stole Ennis' shirt off the mountain, and we all know what that means.
In between that first summer and the last meeting, well let's just say, Jack is a Saint. A Saint with a lot of patience, spunk, and tenacity. I'm not sure why it took me so long to realize this.
For me, in my dream, hate didn't win that early. Actually, the last post card read:
"Got your card about November. Make sure you get that cabin and get 9 or 10 days, Ennis. We need to talk about how we are going to improve things."
The next post card in my dream, says: "You Bet".
I strongly believe, a long standing relationship between two men, is built not only on the connection, but also, if not more, on the spaces between them. Those spaces -- in some places small and in others large, actually strengthens the connecting bonds.
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My Dear:
Please don't shed tears on our account.
We can't help it either, and we want you to be happy!!!!
I have a merciful shoulder to cry on, you can share your tears.
Love
Jim
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Jack knew Ennis loved him. If he hadn't known he would not have been so very frustrated over it. He knew, it didn't help, but he knew and he didn't die wondering if Ennis loved him. He died without Ennis with him, propably wouldn't have died at all if Ennis had been with him, and that its the stone that Ennis must carry in his heart for the rest of his life. But, Jack knew Ennis loved him and him alone. Couldn't love someone for twenty years and not now it.
Jim thinks too much.
Ennis was taught by his father to strike first (re: (1) street scene outside the bar after Thanksgiving dinner with his ex-wife. (2) wrestling/fight scene with Jack on the Mountain.
I think that had they lived together Ennis would have shown to the world that they (Ennis & Jack) were not ones to f**k with. Ennis would have hit first.
another thing: Ennis was mad(?) upset(?) frustrated(?) when he arrives at camp and Jack tells him they got to "bring em down". Is Ennis mad because his time with Jack is now cut short by a month not because they are gonig to lose a month's pay?
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another thing: Ennis was mad(?) upset(?) frustrated(?) when he arrives at camp and Jack tells him they got to "bring em down". Is Ennis mad because his time with Jack is now cut short by a month not because they are gonig to lose a month's pay?
Is Ennis mad because his time with Jack is now cut short
That's what I think it is all about...his subconscious took over!...Ennis probably doesn't understand his reaction, it is easier to blame it on losing a month's wages!
He did not understand why he was sick after Jack left either...It's later he understands! ::)
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Of course he's mad that his time with Jack is being taken away. Wouldn't you be mad too? I mean... coulda spent another thirty nights in that with Jack, duhhh!
That would rip the hair right off of my a**!
Jim
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Ennis never express his feelings directly or with word but with actions...in different situations:
- Ennis order soup (obviously for Jack.. we know that Ennis don't like soup)... an action for Jack
- Ennis offer to go to sleep with sheep because of Jack didn't like it
- when Jack tell him they got to bring them down, his violent reaction come from is heart..not for economic reasons: he realize that his dream is finishing and he will
return to his normal live (to Alma)
- When Jack and Ennis separate, Ennis appears to be indifferent but after some step, he explode vomiting and crying
For that reasons I love so much Ennis... it is a rare quality to be so pure, sincere, natural.... the nature of his feelings, the nature of his love..are precious to me; I cant tolerate that he didn't have a happy live :-[
Coguaro
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Yep!
Jim
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Hey everybody!
I love reading all your posts... even the spoilers!
I have only seen the movie and I am dying to read the original book and the screenplay translation so please take my response in that context.
My answer to this thread's question is simply: no.
Jack tried and tried to give up on Ennis... but *everything* conspired against giving Jack his most sought-after desire... not so much Ennis, but the *LOVE* he experienced on Brokeback Mountain with Ennis.
Jack's last ditch attempt with the rancher at the end came to a devestating end... no, Jack was murdered by forces that kept Jack and Ennis apart... the same forces that made Ennis so fearful of their relationship. Jack was even denied the possibility of anything with the rancher. It was a brutal end to someone whose only crime was being as open as it was possible in such a harsh environment.
Yet, as I ponder the movie more... and witness the beauty of the "shirts"... I saw a redemption for both Jack and Ennis. As brutal as those forces were that took Jack's life away... no, those forces could not take Jack's love away from Ennis... no, Jack never did finally give up on Ennis... no, Ennis finally gave in to Jack's love.
It was time for Ennis to finally put his shirt over Jack's shirt... it was finally time for Ennis to embrace Jack again. It was time...
"Jack, I swear..."
Man... I cry now.
Frank
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Because of Jack...
I think Ennis will die a very happy man. He loves his children, raising stock, and he likes his loads light. I don't mistake that for a bad life. I have a big load, and make too much, and wonder if I'm having the best life I can.
Jack and the situation taught Ennis a whole lot about life. A large number of people go a whole lifetime without finding their true love and soul mate. I think divorce rates kind-of point to that.
For what Ennis started with, I think he is the smartest man I know. I always measure a man by where he came from. He always knew Jack was his soul mate and kindled the relationship for twenty years the best he could. He was on the brink of making major changes. Jack's spirit lives on and keeps Ennis going.
(Sorry for being slightly off topic, I couldn't let this response go unrelated to the comment above (I cant tolerate that he didn't have a happy live.)
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Good reflection...of course, Jack give more than a relation to Ennis, he give him a instruction on live.
You raise my mind
coguaro
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Do I want to believe it? NO. Do I think so...yes I do. Here is why...trace Jacks facial expressions over time...first when leaving BBM after being paid by Aguirre he asks Ennis about "next year"...his face is full of love, hope, and innocence. Next...when he is driving away from WY after learning that Ennis's divorce doesnt mean they will be together he is devastated. Finally after their last time together, as Ennis leaves you can read the sadness but resignation on his face. He has realized that no matter how much he loves Ennis it just can't be what he wants. With accumlated hurt, over time, people do move on and that is what Jack had to do. Also rememer this, by the time he dies Jack is 39...he is middle aged and that gives him a whole new outlook on life. With wisdom we all realize that their are people and things we cannot change...and we also look at how we want to spend the rest of our own lives. Jack let go and moved on because he had to.....with all that said I still think that he would have returned to Ennis in a heartbeat...he didn't stop loving him at all...just moved on by lack of choice. :'(
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I do think he tried to move on, but as Jack's Dad said he talked of bringing this guy up to his ranch but it didn't happen, so I suspect the replacement relationshiop didn't last. So he tried but it didn't work, he missed Ennis too much I think.
I also noted in my last viewing that dance scene where he is with the rancher and his wife is more significant than it appears, the exchange between Lureen and jack is tense, she makes the crack about men never dancing with their wives (in contrast to the first time they met when he danced with her very romantically) and then Jacks asks the GUEST to dance then Lureen sits back in her seat lookikn a bit annoyed. it was a telling moment, that marriage is over, Ennis or not. It's gone from convenient to painful I think.
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In my mind, Jack had never truly given up on Ennis. Yes, there were situations where he cheated on Ennis. However, they appeared more to be temporary physical reliefs or at most, attempts to quit Ennis (like relationships with the neighbor). After all the encounters, Jack still went back to Ennis every year for the trysts. I bet, Jack would have gone back to Ennis even if he should have had a chance to ranch with his neighbor together so long as Ennis, one day, should want to be together with him. Finally, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain was the best proof how much Jack cherished his relationship with Ennis, how much love he had towards Ennis and how much he wanted to be with Ennis.
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In my mind, Jack had never truly given up on Ennis. Yes, there were situations where he cheated on Ennis. However, they appeared more to be temporary physical reliefs or at most, attempts to quit Ennis (like relationships with the neighbor). After all the encounters, Jack still went back to Ennis every year for the trysts. I bet, Jack would have gone back to Ennis even if he should have had a chance to ranch with his neighbor together so long as Ennis, one day, should want to be together with him. Finally, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain was the best proof how much Jack cherished his relationship with Ennis, how much love he had towards Ennis and how much he wanted to be with Ennis.
Well, of course! You have hit on it exactly! Jack's wishes to be eternally on Brokeback Mountain; the happiest he ever was in his whole life says that he never stopped loving Ennis and never gave up hope.
Jack + Ennis
Jim
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Maybe Jack needed just needed to be held by someone, have their arms around him like in the campfire scene with Ennis that's why he went to Mexico. I don't think we always want sex as much as we want affection.
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Maybe Jack needed just needed to be held by someone, have their arms around him like in the campfire scene with Ennis that's why he went to Mexico. I don't think we always want sex as much as we want affection.
Yeah, that human touch. Got to have it!
Jim
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In my mind, Jack had never truly given up on Ennis. Yes, there were situations where he cheated on Ennis. However, they appeared more to be temporary physical reliefs or at most, attempts to quit Ennis (like relationships with the neighbor). After all the encounters, Jack still went back to Ennis every year for the trysts. I bet, Jack would have gone back to Ennis even if he should have had a chance to ranch with his neighbor together so long as Ennis, one day, should want to be together with him. Finally, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain was the best proof how much Jack cherished his relationship with Ennis, how much love he had towards Ennis and how much he wanted to be with Ennis.
Well, of course! You have hit on it exactly! Jack's wishes to be eternally on Brokeback Mountain; the happiest he ever was in his whole life says that he never stopped loving Ennis and never gave up hope.
Of course you're right. He wanted his ashes up on Brokeback Mountain. So would I and I would hope that one day they wouldn't be alone.
Jack + Ennis
Jim
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Wow, stickler.. that's is so true. :'(
But, If at one final moment of comfort, the "I swear" line helps balance the lost. In my reasoning, Ennis only said that line because he knew Jack was listening... from Heaven. :)
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Do I want to believe it? NO. Do I think so...yes I do. Here is why...trace Jacks facial expressions over time...first when leaving BBM after being paid by Aguirre he asks Ennis about "next year"...his face is full of love, hope, and innocence. Next...when he is driving away from WY after learning that Ennis's divorce doesnt mean they will be together he is devastated. Finally after their last time together, as Ennis leaves you can read the sadness but resignation on his face. He has realized that no matter how much he loves Ennis it just can't be what he wants. With accumlated hurt, over time, people do move on and that is what Jack had to do. Also rememer this, by the time he dies Jack is 39...he is middle aged and that gives him a whole new outlook on life. With wisdom we all realize that their are people and things we cannot change...and we also look at how we want to spend the rest of our own lives. Jack let go and moved on because he had to.....with all that said I still think that he would have returned to Ennis in a heartbeat...he didn't stop loving him at all...just moved on by lack of choice. :'(
I thought about what you said, but I realized that in some ways it really depends on how you look at "moving on" versus "giving up". Maybe Jack did move on, but he sure didn't give up on Ennis. If Jack had given up on Ennis, Ennis would not have found the shirts... Ennis' shirt tucked neatly into Jack's shirt as if to say "I will never let you go.". Yeah, he did move on, but it just doesn't seem like he actually gave up on Ennis.
... also see my post in the "Jack Twist broke my heart" thread...
Frank
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I have to agree with you Fank. After the confrontation in spring Jack went to his parents for few days visit. If he was totally over Ennis maybe he could have got rid of the shirts then. Jack had ample opportunity. I think I would do that because the shirts wouldn't mean anything to me.
"Then this spring he’s got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass".
From this passage it is not clear the sex of the ranch neighbour. We automatically assume it was Randall, but what if it was the Randall's wife just like how Jack said he is seeing neighbour rancher’s wife? Also, when Jack's father says he's goin a split up with his wife and come back, is he taking about Jack or Randall? It is unclear in the movie and in the short story. The problem with he movie is it is very suggestive, especially with that scene where Randall and Jack sitting next to each other.
My take is Jack would do anything for Ennis. I think he even married Laureen for her money maybe in the hopes of taking Ennis away from Wyoming (even though Jack got married before the reunion – did you see the look of sadness whey Jack and Laureen were dancing the first time...oh my). Maybe Jack thought he could impress Ennis with it. Therefore, I believe he would have moved closer to Ennis this way they see more of each other? One way was to split with his wife and come back home with a new woman??? If Jack had the intention of ending it with Ennis he would have to have thought about it before he said he missed Ennis so much that he hardly couldn’t stand it sometimes (writing from my memory). Also, in the last meeting Jack asks Ennis how he has not found any woman to marry? Maybe Jack is wondering what is going on and if Ennis is waiting for him???
I think the movie is kind of misleading us to believe that Jack took up with neighbour rancer, Randell as per that scene where they are sitting together. Annie I think wrote in a way so the reader draw their own conclusion.
Love is a strange thing. It makes on do unreliable things to be with the one we truly love.
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I have to agree with you Fank. After the confrontation in spring Jack went to his parents for few days visit. If he was totally over Ennis maybe he could have got rid of the shirts then. Jack had ample opportunity. I think I would do that because the shirts wouldn't mean anything to me.
"Then this spring he’s got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass".
From this passage it is not clear the sex of the ranch neighbour. We automatically assume it was Randall, but what if it was the Randall's wife just like how Jack said he is seeing neighbour rancher’s wife? Also, when Jack's father says he's goin a split up with his wife and come back, is he taking about Jack or Randall? It is unclear in the movie and in the short story. The problem with he movie is it is very suggestive, especially with that scene where Randall and Jack sitting next to each other.
My take is Jack would do anything for Ennis. I think he even married Laureen for her money maybe in the hopes of taking Ennis away from Wyoming (even though Jack got married before the reunion – did you see the look of sadness whey Jack and Laureen were dancing the first time...oh my). Maybe Jack thought he could impress Ennis with it. Therefore, I believe he would have moved closer to Ennis this way they see more of each other? One way was to split with his wife and come back home with a new woman??? If Jack had the intention of ending it with Ennis he would have to have thought about it before he said he missed Ennis so much that he hardly couldn’t stand it sometimes (writing from my memory). Also, in the last meeting Jack asks Ennis how he has not found any woman to marry? Maybe Jack is wondering what is going on and if Ennis is waiting for him???
I think the movie is kind of misleading us to believe that Jack took up with neighbour rancer, Randell as per that scene where they are sitting together. Annie I think wrote in a way so the reader draw their own conclusion.
Love is a strange thing. It makes on do unreliable things to be with the one we truly love.
Hmmm... yes, there are many places where we can draw our own conclusion as to the character's hidden intents, but I believe that the clues as to what those intents were, especially in a work of fiction, is normally right there in the story. So regardless of whether it was the wife of Randall or Randall himself, it does not change the fact that the shirts were still in Jack's little hidden treasure trove... so I think the story leads us to believe that the only sure thing is Jack's "sure thing" with Ennis.... he still loved Ennis.... however, with regards to whether it was Randall or Randall's wife, if we look at the subject matter of the entire story, it is about that deep love; so all I can say is that whatever Jack has with Randall or Randall's wife must be a very pale comparison indeed... it becomes incidental.
He sure did look a little sad with Lureen... and if memory serves me right, didn't he try to buy a drink for a guy in a movie scene before Lureen ever entered the picture? (no pun intended) It seemed to me that Jack was looking every which way to duplicate *Ennis* and he became resigned when Lureen seemed interested in him. It just still ain't Ennis.
Your theory about Jack having an ulterior motive as to connect up with Randall's wife (after all the divorcin' and stuff) to go home to "his daddy's ranch" to satisfy his homophobic father and then to possibly bring Ennis in as a ranch hand so that they can be together seems very intriguing. But I would have to ask would Ennis go for that? Jack, knew how Ennis valued his relationship with Alma and his daughters. So if Jack abandons Lureen and his son... I think it would have to be because he could not handle a loveless family anymore and tried to duplicate *Ennis* again. Another thing, that Ennis loved about Jack was his openess and directness. I am not sure, but I think that Jack being the Jack that we and Ennis fell in love with, may have done the very thing that got Jack killed... he tried to openly and directly connect up with Randall. As hard as I find that... it seems to fit.... I know, it is harst, but remember the "flash" in Ennis' head as he listened to Lureen non-chalantly droned about how Jack died...
Brutal.
Frank
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Hi everyone,
like Jim's and others', my answer is Jack + Ennis 4ever :D
Some good thoughts on this thread: the 2 shirts in Jack's room, his wish to have his ashes at Brokeback, Jack being strongly tempted to conclude that Ennis didn't love him enough to sacrifice his environment, why didn't he move closer to Ennis ?
Jack was portrayed as somewhat ambitious. His marriage to Lureen smacks of Opportunity. He acts on his desires. His wildest dreams were for him and Ennis. But Ennis was the reins on those dreams. He'd bragged to Ennis that no filly ever threw him off - which wasn't exactly true. Ennis's stuck-in-the-mud attitude infuriated him.
Ennis realises the pain is killing him, says he has nothing, is nothing. Partly because Jack is upsetting him talking about quitting him, but also because he can't bring himself to be different, and now I'm crying my eyes out :'(
Stephan
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Hi everyone,
like Jim's and others', my answer is Jack + Ennis 4ever :D
Some good thoughts on this thread: the 2 shirts in Jack's room, his wish to have his ashes at Brokeback, Jack being strongly tempted to conclude that Ennis didn't love him enough to sacrifice his environment, why didn't he move closer to Ennis ?
Jack was portrayed as somewhat ambitious. His marriage to Lureen smacks of Opportunity. He acts on his desires. His wildest dreams were for him and Ennis. But Ennis was the reins on those dreams. He'd bragged to Ennis that no filly ever threw him off - which wasn't exactly true. Ennis's stuck-in-the-mud attitude infuriated him.
Ennis realises the pain is killing him, says he has nothing, is nothing. Partly because Jack is upsetting him talking about quitting him, but also because he can't bring himself to be different, and now I'm crying my eyes out :'(
Stephan
This is a very good point. Ennis' stuck-in-the-mud attitude was a constant source of frustration and irritation for Jack.
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"Some good thoughts on this thread: the 2 shirts in Jack's room, his wish to have his ashes at Brokeback, Jack being strongly tempted to conclude that Ennis didn't love him enough to sacrifice his environment, why didn't he move closer to Ennis ?"
Yeah .. I think Jack was very much in love with Ennis throughout the whole story and it seems to me that he was trying to force himself to move on at the end ... despite his continued love for Ennis. Their love was so deep and yet they never really expressed it to one another vocally ... :-[
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My take is that Ennis loved Jack as much, if not more than Jack loved Ennis - Ennis was just unable to articulate his love in the same way. Notice it was always Jack who verbally expressed his love and longing: 'I miss you so much sometimes I can hardly stand it'.'.you don't know how bad it gets', and his wish (expressed more than once) for them to have a ranch together. But I do feel that Ennis, in his way, expresses his love - when he reacts in anger to others, i.e getting in fights, and when he is retching with sadness after their parting/the jealousy he exhibits when Jack talks of having been to Mexico. I think Jack was fully cognisant of this, even on their last meeting and this knowledge meant he could never give up on Ennis. Even he had not died, I feel they would've carried on as they were forever - or at least until Ennis has made his mind up to act on his feelings and make a life with Jack, which I feel would've happened at some point in the future.
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But I do feel that Ennis, in his way, expresses his love - when he reacts in anger to others, i.e getting in fights, and when he is retching with sadness after their parting/the jealousy he exhibits when Jack talks of having been to Mexico. I think Jack was fully cognisant of this, even on their last meeting and this knowledge meant he could never give up on Ennis.
I agree with you there, alicat. All those clues, but did Jack really catch on ? He was looking for other clues, like Ennis promising to see him again before November. Sometimes, no matter how deep your love runs, you can't see the forest for the trees.
Stephan
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Yes. Yes, I believe that Jack simply couldn't endure life without Ennis. They were getting on in age and Jack had indicated that a couple of "high altitude fu*ks" were simply not enough. I don't think that Jack made a conscious decision to end his life, or anything like that. But when you are living life heartbroken and depressed, you may tend to be less careful with your safety. A "twist" of fate.
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Two other clues, perhaps : at the last argument, when Ennis collapses on the ground, he and Jack struggle and then Ennis is clinging onto Jack for dear life (btw, I think I heard him say "I can't stand it"). I think that even if Jack had already decided he was going to try to give up on Ennis, that incident would have changed his mind.
Secondly, if Jack was giving up, he would have told Ennis so. But Ennis writes that card which is later returned marked "deceased". He wouldn't have written if Jack had given up.
Stephan
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Jack can not give up on Ennis. Wouldn't, even if he knew how to quit him. They are part of eachother. Inseparable. One can not live without his own heart. They were miserable without eachother, and they never had enough time together.
Ennis didn't tell Jack that he couldn't get away in August until they were packed and leaving because he didn't want to think about it in the midst of their being together. It would have made Jack sad and there would be time for sadness, ...later, when they were apart.
Jack loved Ennis with his whole heart, there was never anyone else nor ever would be anyone else in Jack's heart.
Jack loves Ennis forever
Jim
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Jack can not give up on Ennis. Wouldn't, even if he knew how to quit him. They are part of eachother. Inseparable. One can not live without his own heart. They were miserable without eachother, and they never had enough time together.
Jack loved Ennis with his whole heart, there was never anyone else nor ever would be anyone else in Jack's heart.
Jack loves Ennis forever
Jim
My feelings exactly. Stephan
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Hey Stephan!
Looks like we even dress alike! (avatar)
Cool, huh?
I'm glad to see you're so active and participating in the boards! It is really great to read your thoughts and others. I can't tell you how much I appreciate everything I read.
Best to you!
Jim
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Two other clues, perhaps : at the last argument, when Ennis collapses on the ground, he and Jack struggle and then Ennis is clinging onto Jack for dear life (btw, I think I heard him say "I can't stand it"). I think that even if Jack had already decided he was going to try to give up on Ennis, that incident would have changed his mind.
Secondly, if Jack was giving up, he would have told Ennis so. But Ennis writes that card which is later returned marked "deceased". He wouldn't have written if Jack had given up.
Stephan
Hey Stephan,
... also in Annie Proulx' short story right after Ennis collapse onto the ground (into Jack's arms) she wrote:
"Jesus," said Jack. "Ennis?" But before [Jack] was out of the truck, trying to
guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis
was back on his feet, and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open
a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things
almost to where they had been, for what they'd siad was no news. Nothing
ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.
It was clear, nothing has changed. Ennis and Jack were still in love, and they both felt that they could not do anything about that love. So chances are that Jack went away trying to change everything else in his life, because his love for Ennis was forever.
Peace,
Frank
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I've seen the movie twice, and the last time I tried to look closely at the 3 guys who were hitting Jack in the few seconds you're given to see during Ennis's phone call to Jack's wife.
I could be wrong, and I'll be hitting pause when the DVD comes out, but one of the guys looked like the bearded guy that asks Jack if he's interested in coming to his bosses cabin to drink whiskey and fish to get away from his talkative wife. Maybe all the guy meant was to get away with a friend from his yammering wife and Jack thought he meant for a "tryst" and responded and that's how he wound up getting clobbered with the tire iron.
In the short story it doesn't say anything about the circumstances around Jack being attacked and killed, just that Ennis figures out that it was the tire iron and not the tire exploding that did it.
Again, I'll be hitting pause with the DVD to see if one of the attackers was the bearded guy with the talkative wife -- they may have put something like that in the movie to connect the loose ends, who knows?
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I've seen the movie twice, and the last time I tried to look closely at the 3 guys who were hitting Jack in the few seconds you're given to see during Ennis's phone call to Jack's wife.
I could be wrong, and I'll be hitting pause when the DVD comes out, but one of the guys looked like the bearded guy that asks Jack if he's interested in coming to his bosses cabin to drink whiskey and fish to get away from his talkative wife. Maybe all the guy meant was to get away with a friend from his yammering wife and Jack thought he meant for a "tryst" and responded and that's how he wound up getting clobbered with the tire iron.
In the short story it doesn't say anything about the circumstances around Jack being attacked and killed, just that Ennis figures out that it was the tire iron and not the tire exploding that did it.
Again, I'll be hitting pause with the DVD to see if one of the attackers was the bearded guy with the talkative wife -- they may have put something like that in the movie to connect the loose ends, who knows?
Howdy,
There is a thread about Jack's death... I am at a lost where again... but take a look at what people have said about how Jack actually died.
Peace,
Frank
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I swear... BBM's got me bad ! Stephan
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There is a thread about Jack's death... I am at a lost where again... but take a look at what people have said about how Jack actually died.
Thanks, francis.shim. HERE (http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=24.0) is the topic about Jack's death.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xsorbit30.com%2Fimages%2Fenglish%2Fsearch.gif&hash=1d4b46c31604052a27a8f15359e4c4a37bbfccfc) button is located on the top of page which can be very helpful if you are looking for a particular topic or post.
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There is a thread about Jack's death... I am at a lost where again... but take a look at what people have said about how Jack actually died.
Thanks, francis.shim. HERE (http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=24.0) is the topic about Jack's death.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xsorbit30.com%2Fimages%2Fenglish%2Fsearch.gif&hash=1d4b46c31604052a27a8f15359e4c4a37bbfccfc) button is located on the top of page which can be very helpful if you are looking for a particular topic or post.
Mighty thanks, ethan... I'm green at some of these buttons and things... plus my eyes and my ears ain't what they useta be!
Frank
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I swear... BBM's got me bad ! Stephan
Not to worry, Stephan... you are in the right place!!!
BBM has gotten all of us here bad!
Peace,
Frank
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tpe, I have argued your point often on the IMDB theads. I think Jack either would have tried to have it both ways (no pun intended) with his ranch neighbor and still seeing Ennis. This also could be a tool Jack was using to try to provoke Ennis to enough jealousy to force Ennis' hand. I also am open to the suggestion that Jack mentions the "ranch neighbor" to his folks because he is temporarily bitter at that moment after the last meeting/confrontation.
And I still hold to this position for "story Jack" and "story Ennis."
However -
Other posters on the IMDB threads got me, on my 4th viewing of the film, to take a good look at the expression on "film Jack's" face immediately after the flashback scene, where we cut to the present day and see Jack's face watching his "other half" drive away.
I have to admit that Jake G's look on Jack's face is one mixed of the following: anger, sadness, resignation AND determination.
That brought me to the idea that perhaps "film Jack" was indeed preparing to find a way to "quit" Ennis.
Not that I like it. Not that I think that would have been "appropriate" behavior for "film Jack." But I now have to admit the possibility.
borger1582, I do agree that Jack's final shot can indeed be interpreted as a look of determination.
However, I am sure you will agree with me that one statement in proximity to that scene makes it difficult to envision a final break: I wish I knew how to quit you.
The statement shows that Jack did not know how it was possible for him to live wthout some connection with Ennis -- tenuous as that connection may be.
That Spring, at his parents' house, he probably wrestled with the possibility of how he could quit Ennis. But the proximity of his parents' town to Riverton (where Ennis resided) would certainly NOT have isolated Jack if he did want to get over his relationship with Ennis. Settling in Texas would have been a more effective strategy!
Hence, like you, I also suspect that this could possibly be interpreted as a way of making Ennis jealous -- enough to draw him into a commitment if he did so love Jack. Or then again, would this strategy backfire (think about Ennis' threat to Jack)?
This is speculation. But the above arguments imply that Jack was probably not 'over' with his 'other half.'
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Hi everyone!
I saw the movie last night, for the 3rd time. After the 2nd viewing, I went away with a feeling that Jack's look on his face, watching Ennis leave after their last meeting, was determination to move on in his life, without Ennis. But after watching it one more time; I am not so sure about that anymore.
I think that the flashback to the embrace on Brokeback Mountain, was Jack's main reason to never quit on Ennis. His look on his face when Ennis is leaving that last time they meet, did not tell me that he has given up on Ennis. Yesterday I saw frustration and anger; that he would not see Ennis again as soon as he thought. I think that Jack's love for Ennis was not something he could decide to quit; and as we all know - he says it out loud "I wish I knew how to quit you!". He just didn't know how. Even though he may not ever experience a moment like that hug on BBM, he is so deeply connected with Ennis; and Ennis compliments him in a way Jack know no one else ever will be able to. If Jack had not died; they would have met again in november.
So, leaving the Colosseum cinema in Oslo last night, I felt a little bit better about that... I think Jack loved Ennis so bad that he could never quit him. So about the "Jack quitting Ennis"-question, I am resting a little bit easier...
But, what made me real sad yesterday, was the glipmses of Jack's possible violent death... If that was really happening, I started thinking about what went through Jack's mind those horrible last seconds of his life... I am sure that between all the terrible pain and shock he must have felt, Ennis must have been in his thoughts. One of his last conscious thoughts could very well be that "I will never see Ennis again".
The possibility of Jack's final moments being like that - realizing that his life was about to end, and that his true love was miles away, is too hard to take in... :'(
I am sure thoughts about this will be haunting me today; as this film has done for weeks now... I know this is not what this thread is about, but I just had to share that... Seems like everytime I see the movie; there are new questions in my head afterwards...
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Heath Ledger said during an interview:
"I hope it [the movie] sticks to them.
I hope it gets them thinking.
I hope it presents more questions than answers."
Well Heath, from what I have seen from this thread alone, you sure got your hopes fulfilled.
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Wow, I've never seen so many interpretations on one scene in my life. This is amazing. And just to think I've got one more.
The love between the two men is not in dispute. Their love is just as strong as they parted for the last time as when they were first on Brokeback Mountain. Jack may have thought of altering that part of his life in which Ennis refused to participate but I can't see the status quo on Brokeback Mountain ever fading. It is no coincidence that Jack never mentions that their boss knew of their relationship on the mountain. If Ennis knew then he'd perceive that not even the mountain is safe and Jack would loose that too. In many ways Jack has tip toed around Ennis for twenty years.
I don't see the movie straying away from the book too much. Nothing is resolved by the end of the last meeting. If anything is learned it is how strong Ennis' love is for Jack. We all have seen Jack open with his emotions while Ennis remained composed and stoic. Jack has been aware that there have been sacrifices made on both sides even if he perceived his own sacrifices to be greater. However, Ennis' emotional breakdown opens Jack's eyes to the absolute torture it has been for Ennis. Jack learns that he is not the only one that hurts and the depth to which Ennis has been battling his personal demons.
Many people see this scene as a fight. I see it as a love scene. It is the only time Ennis truly makes his feelings known in the only way he knows how. It's jealousy, dispair and love so strong it hurts. Would you quit someone after learning what Jack learned then?
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Stickler and Froggy (hi again 8)
my weird feeling, watching the scene when Ennis hears about Randall, was that he was relieved in some way. He was devastated as well, no question about it, but I sometimes get the feeling that he wanted Jack to LIVE, to go and get a life, something he never was able to do. Look at the way he speaks to Carrie: "I was never much fun, was I?" He sees himself as deeply flawed ("I am nothing, I am nowhere", sob) and maybe, in a very weird way, he wanted Jack to be happy. Even though he wanted to kill him for being with someone else at the same time. At least I know, though it seems to be contradictory, it does happen (been through it myself). What do you think?
monicita
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Many people see this scene as a fight. I see it as a love scene. It is the only time Ennis truly makes his feelings known in the only way he knows how. It's jealousy, dispair and love so strong it hurts. Would you quit someone after learning what Jack learned then?
This is so true. Very beautifully stated...
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Sigh, I agree about its being a love scene. Even though I might still think about finding another love. Love can be hell, sometimes and trying to hold on to hell, forever is not something I ever want to do again (once bitten and so on).
monicita
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I don't see the movie straying away from the book too much. Nothing is resolved by the end of the last meeting. If anything is learned it is how strong Ennis' love is for Jack. We all have seen Jack open with his emotions while Ennis remained composed and stoic. Jack has been aware that there have been sacrifices made on both sides even if he perceived his own sacrifices to be greater. However, Ennis' emotional breakdown opens Jack's eyes to the absolute torture it has been for Ennis. Jack learns that he is not the only one that hurts and the depth to which Ennis has been battling his personal demons.
Many people see this scene as a fight. I see it as a love scene. It is the only time Ennis truly makes his feelings known in the only way he knows how. It's jealousy, dispair and love so strong it hurts. Would you quit someone after learning what Jack learned then?
Yes, this was one of the most passionate love scenes in the film... agonizing yet as Annie Proulx indicated it didn't resolve their anguish. In this case, when they "fight" it is because they are so afraid of losing that passionate love that entwines them, but it is the same conflict over and over again... I don't have to say it, because you already know it.
Argh! My heart just breaks everytime when I think of that scene...
Peace,
Frank
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From the information blurted out by Jack's father during Ennis' visit, it would seem that Jack had finally had enough and was ready to give up on Ennis, divorce his wife and move back home with his Texas ranch neighbor.
The story/movie wisely leaves this ambiguous because Jack died before any concrete action could have been taken. Jack could have simply stated this on his last home visit as an expression of his frustration or bitterness at that particular moment. Then again, he could have been completely serious about it.
Because I am totally besotted with the endurance and depth of Jack's and Ennis' relationship, I find it hard to accept that Jack really was serious in his avowed intention to 'break up' with Ennis. But objectively speaking, it could have been inevitable...
Your thoughts...
I feel the same way, that Jack said it in frustration. He seemed to usually go to his parents after spending a few days with Ennis, so he probably stayed with his parents after the big scene with Ennis's breakdown (their last scene together).
He was upset and was thinking he'd take his neighbor up on his offer to go to his bosses cabin, fish, drink whiskey, and Jack thought have a tryst of some sort.
Jack was lonely and wanted to be with someone desperately -- not just have flings a few times a year.
I think his neighbor really only wanted to fish and drink whiskey and get away from his talkative wife, and Jack, thinking he was interested in more, put the moves on him, and that's when he got into trouble and wound up getting clobbered with the tire iron.
Aside from all of that, I think that Jack really was deeply in love with Ennis (I think it was mutual), so even if Jack found some other guy, I think he would have had a hard time staying away from Ennis. I think it would have taken a lot of work on his part to ignore a postcard from Ennis, and I really don't think he would have done it -- he loved Ennis too much to ignore him. Otherwise he would have cut it off earlier during the 20 year relationship.
I also think that Jack's father and mother knew about Jack and put the pieces together about Ennis and Jack. Jack's mother was compassionate and let him take the shirts and invited him back giving the sense that she considered him "family" in some way. Jack's father, on the other hand, was hostile and may have taken something that Jack said in frustration and through it in Ennis's face to be hurtful. He was hostile toward Ennis during his entire visit, while the mother was comforting, so I got the impression that the father was just trying to make a dig -- an expression of his hostility toward Jack and Ennis's relationship. If you read the short story, it's very clear that Jack's father is hostile toward Jack throughout Jack's life. I think the remark about the "other guy" was said to Ennis in hostility. A nother clue -- watch the mother's face when the father is talking.
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I feel the same way, that Jack said it in frustration. He seemed to usually go to his parents after spending a few days with Ennis, so he probably stayed with his parents after the big scene with Ennis's breakdown (their last scene together).
He was upset and was thinking he'd take his neighbor up on his offer to go to his bosses cabin, fish, drink whiskey, and Jack thought have a tryst of some sort.
Jack was lonely and wanted to be with someone desperately -- not just have flings a few times a year.
I think his neighbor really only wanted to fish and drink whiskey and get away from his talkative wife, and Jack, thinking he was interested in more, put the moves on him, and that's when he got into trouble and wound up getting clobbered with the tire iron.
Aside from all of that, I think that Jack really was deeply in love with Ennis (I think it was mutual), so even if Jack found some other guy, I think he would have had a hard time staying away from Ennis. I think it would have taken a lot of work on his part to ignore a postcard from Ennis, and I really don't think he would have done it -- he loved Ennis too much to ignore him. Otherwise he would have cut it off earlier during the 20 year relationship.
I also think that Jack's father and mother knew about Jack and put the pieces together about Ennis and Jack. Jack's mother was compassionate and let him take the shirts and invited him back giving the sense that she considered him "family" in some way. Jack's father, on the other hand, was hostile and may have taken something that Jack said in frustration and through it in Ennis's face to be hurtful. He was hostile toward Ennis during his entire visit, while the mother was comforting, so I got the impression that the father was just trying to make a dig -- an expression of his hostility toward Jack and Ennis's relationship. If you read the short story, it's very clear that Jack's father is hostile toward Jack throughout Jack's life. I think the remark about the "other guy" was said to Ennis in hostility. A nother clue -- watch the mother's face when the father is talking.
Hello Mabon. I think the Texas rancher was clearly putting the moves on Jack when he offered that they spend time in the cabin together. But I do agree with you that Jack's father and mother probably put the pieces together and knew about Jack and Ennis. Roberta Maxwell (who played Jack's mother) was magnificent, IMO.
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Hello Mabon. I think the Texas rancher was clearly putting the moves on Jack when he offered that they spend time in the cabin together...
Hi tpe,
It sure seemed that way to me too, but the bearded guy doesn't say anything but "... fish, drink whiskey... get away..." and the scene ends with Jack looking as if he's trying to figure out exactly what's meant by it, he doesn't say a word. Jack has this look of "does he mean what I think he means?", and then they cut to the next scene.
Then second time I saw the movie I thought that one of the guys (out of 3) that was hitting Jack with the tire iron (during that quick cut of that scene) resembled the bearded guy. And if it was him, then Jack misread his invitation, and again, that invite scene does end with Jack looking like he's trying to calmly and discretely figure out exactly what the bearded guy is getting at.
The tire iron scene is such a fast cut that it's really hard to tell in the theater, so I'll be pausing the DVD to see for sure. I could be wrong, but in the timeline of what happens there with Jack's murder, it could fit and would explain how Jack got into the tire iron situation.
It just leaves a little question for me, so I'll just have to wait for the DVD and pause and "slo-mo" through that scene to see the faces of the guys doing the hitting.
The bearded guy is not in the short story, so it's just a movie thing. There's nothing else that indicates the specific events that lead to Jack being murdered, not in the movie or short story.
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Hello Mabon. I think the Texas rancher was clearly putting the moves on Jack when he offered that they spend time in the cabin together...
Hi tpe,
It sure seemed that way to me too, but the bearded guy doesn't say anything but "... fish, drink whiskey... get away..." and the scene ends with Jack looking as if he's trying to figure out exactly what's meant by it, he doesn't say a word. Jack has this look of "does he mean what I think he means?", and then they cut to the next scene.
Then second time I saw the movie I thought that one of the guys (out of 3) that was hitting Jack with the tire iron (during that quick cut of that scene) resembled the bearded guy. And if it was him, then Jack misread his invitation, and again, that invite scene does end with Jack looking like he's trying to calmly and discretely figure out exactly what the bearded guy is getting at.
The tire iron scene is such a fast cut that it's really hard to tell in the theater, so I'll be pausing the DVD to see for sure. I could be wrong, but in the timeline of what happens there with Jack's murder, it could fit and would explain how Jack got into the tire iron situation.
It just leaves a little question for me, so I'll just have to wait for the DVD and pause and "slo-mo" through that scene to see the faces of the guys doing the hitting.
The bearded guy is not in the short story, so it's just a movie thing. There's nothing else that indicates the specific events that lead to Jack being murdered, not in the movie or short story.
Hello Mabon. It's great that this movie makes us think in many ways and in different directions. :)
In an earlier thread, there was mention of a scene that did not get included in the final version of the movie. It supposedly shows the men who are about to kill Jack in a garage. Apparently, they were mechanics... I think the movie did good in not getting too specific about the nature of Jack's death (i.e., accident vs murder -- most probably murder).
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>>>It is the only time Ennis truly makes his feelings known in the only way he knows how. It's jealousy, dispair and love so strong it hurts.
I also think Ennis expresses his deep love for Jack when he kisses him after their 4 year reunion scene - when you consider how stoic/closed he was as a person both before and after that scene, it only reinforces how much in love he must have been to kiss Jack as he did - outside the house and with the chance that someone could see them. And it wasn't just a kiss for the sake of it - it was deeply passionate - almost a longing kiss to hold him and never let go. From the way Jake G played it (his response I mean) to that kiss, Jack too was taken aback by the force of it and what it implied. What does anyone else think? It was definitely out of character for Ennis to behave in that way IMO and wear his heart on his sleeve like that. After all, he hadn't seen Jack for 4 years and he did not know how Jack really felt after all that time did he? For all he knew, Jack may have rejected the kiss but Ennis didn't care. Sorry, I know I'm overanalysing but as others have said, this film raises so many questions and 'what ifs' or 'what did that mean'?? etc. I am not sure exactly why it has that effect but it definitely does!
Take care all :-)
Alicat xxxx
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Awww that scene was beautiful ... sent tingles down my back. :-)
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I also think Ennis expresses his deep love for Jack when he kisses him after their 4 year reunion scene
In the short story this happens on the landing right in front of the door and it's described as, "Their mouths fit together as easily as the right key turns the tumblers in a lock..." (or something to that effect -- again, I don't have the story in front of me).
When they come out of the clinch, Ennis says..."Something that he only ever said to his horse and his little girls, "Little Darlin'..." (that part I remember pretty close to verbatim!)
So the Ennis's love was definitely there, and pretty intense. You could tell he was falling in love (in the short story) prior to anything sexual taking place -- it's the way A.P. describes his behavior one night as he's riding back to the sheep after spending too long at the camp with Jack, "... he's so happy he could paw the white out of the moon."
And tpe:
...(i.e., accident vs murder -- most probably murder)...
the short story makes it clear that it's murder. "...when Ennis knew it was the tire iron..." A.P. didn't say, "guessed" or "figured", he "knew it had been the tire iron", but that debate is in another thread, too! :)
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Jack could never give up on Ennis.
He went to his grave loving Ennis.
Ennis knows it, too.
Jim
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Jack learns that he is not the only one that hurts and the depth to which Ennis has been battling his personal demons.
Many people see this scene as a fight. I see it as a love scene. It is the only time Ennis truly makes his feelings known in the only way he knows how. It's jealousy, dispair and love so strong it hurts. Would you quit someone after learning what Jack learned then?
Absolute truth beautifully said, Scruffy. I also think that because he had to battle his demons, he stayed a loner. He was fighting to hold on to his love and to his sanity.
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And tpe:
...(i.e., accident vs murder -- most probably murder)...
the short story makes it clear that it's murder. "...when Ennis knew it was the tire iron..." A.P. didn't say, "guessed" or "figured", he "knew it had been the tire iron", but that debate is in another thread, too! :)
For sure, the story is definite that in Ennis' mind, it was murder. Also, someone I know who has directing experience tells me that they never do this kind of flashback (of the murder scene) in a movie unless it was much more than a suggestion.
But in the final analysis, Proulx leaves some room for ambiguity. If you remember the last line of the story, there was some space between what Ennis knew and what he believed...
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And tpe:
...(i.e., accident vs murder -- most probably murder)...
the short story makes it clear that it's murder. "...when Ennis knew it was the tire iron..." A.P. didn't say, "guessed" or "figured", he "knew it had been the tire iron", but that debate is in another thread, too! :)
For sure, the story is definite that in Ennis' mind, it was murder. Also, someone I know who has directing experience tells me that they never do this kind of flashback (of the murder scene) in a movie unless it was much more than a suggestion.
But in the final analysis, Proulx leaves some room for ambiguity. If you remember the last line of the story, there was some space between what Ennis knew and what he believed...
And, ... this is from the short story, "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED..."
Jim
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...If you remember the last line of the story, there was some space between what Ennis knew and what he believed...
I thought this line had to do with Ennis's sexuality and innability to accept it
from the book: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
I read this as having more to do with Ennis's sexuality and inner state, not about the way Jack was killed. Because of his innability to accept his sexuality, he was somewhat disconnected to himself and lived out his life that way in relative isolation. That's how I read that line, I didn't take it as if it had anything to do with Jack's death.
The paragraph prior to this line is about Jack coming to him in his dreams -- after he gets the postcard of Brokeback Mountain, so I read the last line of the story as addressing Ennis's emotional state primarily and then having some implication on how he lives out his life: "... if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Pretty sad. :'(
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...If you remember the last line of the story, there was some space between what Ennis knew and what he believed...
I thought this line had to do with Ennis's sexuality and innability to accept it
from the book: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
I read this as having more to do with Ennis's sexuality and inner state, not about the way Jack was killed. Because of his innability to accept his sexuality, he was somewhat disconnected to himself and lived out his life that way in relative isolation. That's how I read that line, I didn't take it as if it had anything to do with Jack's death.
The paragraph prior to this line is about Jack coming to him in his dreams -- after he gets the postcard of Brokeback Mountain, so I read the last line of the story as addressing Ennis's emotional state primarily and then having some implication on how he lives out his life: "... if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Pretty sad. :'(
Mabon, we don't have to agree in this. ;) But may I call your attention to the reference made to the can of beans that sometimes transforms into a tire-iron in Ennis' dreams about Jack. This establishes the conflicting views surrounding Jack's death in Ennis' subconscious. That is why he sometimes wakes up either in a state of erotic release or in a state of emotional collapse -- depending on which image (can of beans or tire-iron) captures hold of him.
It is the can of beans vs tire-iron dichotomy in Ennis' dreams which is referenced by the last line, IMO.
But you are right: pretty sad in any case. Thanks.
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There is no question in my mind regarding Jack's continuing love for Ennis after the love/fight scene. But after a 3rd viewing today, in watching Jack's face as Ennis drives away, I found myself pondering the possibility that having witnessed the depths of Ennis's agony and hearing him say "I can't stand to go on like this", that he might have decided to move on to spare Ennis further anguish. The essence of true love is putting another's needs and well being ahead of our own, and the the thought of putting Ennis through any more of this may have finally become unbearable for him. Think about how powerful the visual image of Ennis trying to jam the tears back is, and the absolute heartbreak in his voice. Jack knows by now Ennis isn't going to be able to change. I'm thinking he may have been saying ''farewell" in his mind during that shot. This of course makes the shot immediately preceding this, the remembered and treasured embrace from behind even more poignant, as if he knows he will never experience it again. He is letting go of that which is most dear to him.
In this way, I don't think Jack ever really "cheats" on Ennis; he may be resigned to moving on and "settling" for a lesser relationship, but his feelings for Ennis will always be "a force of nature".
This line of analysis makes possible the following:
Jack: " I wish I knew how to quit you!"
Ennis "Well why don't you Jack? Why don't you just let me be? Your'e the reason I'm like this...nothing...and nowhere...I can't stand to go on like this!"
Jack makes the decision to let go of Ennis in order to lessen Ennis's pain.
After Jack's death, Ennis learns through the phone call to Jack's wife and visit with his parents both the depth of Jacks love for him and his substitution of-Randall?-for Ennis in his plans/fantasy to settle on his parents' ranch. Then he finds the shirts in Jack's closet, with Jack's arms symbolically wrapped around Ennis.
Thus a possible ending to our favorite unfinished sentence:
"Jack, I swear... I didn't mean it."
Any thoughts?
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There is no question in my mind regarding Jack's continuing love for Ennis after the love/fight scene. But after a 3rd viewing today, in watching Jack's face as Ennis drives away, I found myself pondering the possibility that having witnessed the depths of Ennis's agony and hearing him say "I can't stand to go on like this", that he might have decided to move on to spare Ennis further anguish. The essence of true love is putting another's needs and well being ahead of our own, and the the thought of putting Ennis through any more of this may have been unbearable for him. Think about how powerful the visual image of Ennis trying to jam the tears back is, and the absolute heartbreak in his voice. He knows by now Ennis isn't going to be able to change. I'm thinkiing he may have been saying ''farewell" in his mind during that shot. This of course makes the shot immediately preceding this, the remembered and treasured embrace from behind even more poignant, as if he knows he will never experience it again. He is letting go of that which most dear to him.
In this way, I don't think Jack ever really "cheats" on Ennis; he may be resigned to moving on and "settling" for a lesser relationship, but his feelings for Ennis will always be "a force of nature".
You are suggesting a "self-sacrifice" of Jack for Ennis... you do realize how that emboldens Jack's death: it becomes an even more powerful testament especially for Ennis that Jack loved him. It increases Ennis' self-torture and, hence, love comes right around full circle. Jack loves Ennis loves Jack loves Ennis ...
That is just so beautiful... :'( :'( :'(
Peace,
Frank
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So guys...do you really think Jack gave up on Ennis...just the thought of it is making me sick...and sad....
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Not as long as he still had a breath in his body!
Jim
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So guys...do you really think Jack gave up on Ennis...just the thought of it is making me sick...and sad....
Gyllenhaal believed it was so (in one of his interviews). Whether Jack did or not, it is a monumental sadness that permeates the end. There was no way out...
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Frank,
It gets worse! Evidently I was still working on that post when you quoted it. I made some additions and revisions. Check it out if you like.
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Frank,
It gets worse! Evidently I was still working on that post when you quoted it. I made some additions and revisions. Check it out if you like.
I read what you wrote, and it caused me to cry again.
I agree... that Jack moved on, in attempts to spare Ennis' further anguish; I agree that Ennis' agonizing mantra "Why don't you... I am nothing..." was the way out for Jack. Jack took the lesser road, but to a tragic end. "Nothing changed... nothing resolved..." was the responding refrain of their trap (Annie Proulx' short story has that wording).
Jack may have tried to move on, but he did not give up on Ennis. He did not want to. He could not... and when he tried... even society would not take him back to give up on Ennis. The story insists that Jack never gave up on Ennis.
That to me was a most cruel and inhumane end to a human being whose only hope was to try and do the right thing for himself and Ennis.
Peace,
Frank
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This line of analysis makes possible the following:
Jack: " I wish I knew how to quit you!"
Ennis "Well why don't you Jack? Why don't you just let me be? Your'e the reason I'm like this...nothing...and nowhere...I can't stand to go on like this!"
Jack makes the decision to let go of Ennis in order to lessen Ennis's pain.
Thus a possible ending to our favorite unfinished sentence:
"Jack, I swear... I didn't mean it."
Any thoughts?
oooh. Prouxlfan I like this one..those 2 scenes are the most powerful to me and the sentence works nicely. :) :) :)
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Jim
In order to clarify, I agree Jack can't "give up" on Ennis any more than he could give up his need for air. But based on how excruciating Ennis's agony is, when I see the shot of his face watching Ennis drive away, I just felt that he arrived at a place where he knew what he needed to do. There is a self-less quality in this decision. Ask yourself, would you be able to allow anyone that you loved deeply to suffer that kind of torment if you had it in your power to do anything to lessen it? I see Jack as having far too much generosity of spirit to do otherwise.
Just my take on things...
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He tried to but couldn't. It is hard to break off with somebody who is like your best buddy who knows you better than others.
Hell, even Jack picked the plucky Mexican boy who remotely has the height, build and look of Ennis. (Guess we know Jack likes blondie-looks)
Never did once that Ennis refused Jack in a way that will shut him out forever. Even Ennis was afraid that Jack wouldn't take the news about him working in August too kindly, biting his nails and fidgeting when he is nervous... then saying he is holding out for him while Jack is sowing wild oats. Sigh!
I guess Jack was looking for a better alternative and that probably led him to his death.
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Not as long as he still had a breath in his body!
Jim
That's my Jim...I'm 100% with you...a love like theirs...It's a force of nature!
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Not as long as he still had a breath in his body!
Jim
That's my Jim...I'm 100% with you...a love like theirs...It's a force of nature!
DITTO!
This is my Jim
This is my froggy
Mouah :-*
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;D
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You bet!
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You bet!!! ;D
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as i was walking back from seeing the movie for the 10th time, a thought came to my mind, if camilla didn't give up on charles after all those years why we are quick to assume jack would give up on ennis.... interesting thought...something to think about...
on another note...
jack finally got his wish/desire... he is living with ennis togather... okay maybe not physically...but in sprit or through his shirt....in one form or another he is with ennis....
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a thought came to my mind, if camilla didn't give up on charles after all those years why we are quick to assume jack would give up on ennis.... interesting
Mah Gawd! Yes! ;D
on another note...
jack finally got his wish/desire... he is living with ennis togather... okay maybe not physically...but in sprit or through his shirt....in one form or another he is with ennis....
Very, very nice posting.
Thanks for sharing
Hugs,
Pierre
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Thanks Pierre... This is the only way I can be satisfied with the ending...
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I may have been mentioned elsewhere, but if you look at Jack's face when Randall suggest they spend some weekend in the cabin together, you can read that his love for Ennis hasn't changed.
As for the end, as mentioned in the "dreams" topic, I think the best is still in the short story: Jack starting to appear in Ennis' dreams is the only bit of relief I find and "I swear" I keep it tight, dunno if i would be able to read the story again without that bit.
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I may have been mentioned elsewhere, but if you look at Jack's face when Randall suggest they spend some weekend in the cabin together, you can read that his love for Ennis hasn't changed.
As for the end, as mentioned in the "dreams" topic, I think the best is still in the short story: Jack starting to appear in Ennis' dreams is the only bit of relief I find and "I swear" I keep it tight, dunno if i would be able to read the story again without that bit.
Yes, Jack loved Ennis too much!
as i was walking back from seeing the movie for the 10th time, a thought came to my mind, if Camilla didn't give up on Charles after all those years why we are quick to assume jack would give up on Ennis.... interesting thought...something to think about...
Scary parallel...
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i still think that Jack sure will never ever give up on Ennis!
the love between them is so strong that both of them couldn't lose each other...
as somebody said, from he moment Jack passed away, his spirit is with Ennis forever, but juz not the way he want....the ending is so sad...
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So guys...do you really think Jack gave up on Ennis...just the thought of it is making me sick...and sad....
Gyllenhaal believed it was so (in one of his interviews). Whether Jack did or not, it is a monumental sadness that permeates the end. There was no way out...
Is that what Jake Gyllenhaal said. Yikes. That is not good. Now I'm even more sadder than before. :'(
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So guys...do you really think Jack gave up on Ennis...just the thought of it is making me sick...and sad....
Gyllenhaal believed it was so (in one of his interviews). Whether Jack did or not, it is a monumental sadness that permeates the end. There was no way out...
Is that what Jake Gyllenhaal said. Yikes. That is not good. Now I'm even more sadder than before. :'(
Here is the excerpt from the first article under the 'Gyllenhaal Profile' thread. It contains Gyllenhaal's comment about Jack finally giving up (in his mind, of course).
On the other hand Gyllenhaal also feels, that maybe because of the differences in the two characters, Ledger gets to portray someone who stays more faithful to the relationship than Gyllenhaal does.
"In some ways I think maybe Ennis' love is stronger because there is a faithfulness to that and I think you see it happen," he admits. "I think Jack eventually says ‘I'm going to have to go on with my life, I'm going to have to find somebody else and find intimacy with him.’ He does, at the end his Dad says he brought some other guy here and they were going to want to work on a farm."
As I said in my comments in the 'Gyllenhaal Profile' thread, I don't believe that Jack actually brought the Texas Rancher to his parents' place. Also, this is Gyllenhaal's interpretation. And although I have great respect for his thoughts on this subject, I think there is still some space between what we know and what we believe... :)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ifmagazine.com%2Fgraphics%2Ffeatures_movie%2Fbrokebackmountainjakegyllenhaal.jpg&hash=ebf53a98e0c93acea3262872157db465d2865a10)
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Yeah, it's just one of many possible interpretations. And even with what I said earlier, I still think Jack would have come back quicker than lightning if Ennis had said the word that he was ready to make a go of it. ...sigh
And let's give ol' Jack some credit here. Did y'all really want him to to spend his remaining days alone except for fishing trips?? :'( :'(
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Yeah, it's just one of many possible interpretations. And even with what I said earlier, I still think Jack would have come back quicker than lightning if Ennis had said the word that he was ready to make a go of it. ...sigh
And let's give ol' Jack some credit here. Did y'all really want him to to spend his remaining days alone except for fishing trips?? :'( :'(
Hell no he didn't want to be alone. He just wanted someone to love him back as much as he was willing to give up, which was everything, make no mistake about that. Jack wanted a new life, one with a man to love and be loved in return. It's one thing to carry on as they did, it's much different to wake up next to someone every morning. The saddest times for me have always been after Bubba and I have to go our separate ways during the week. I can still smell him on my pillows. I've cried myself to sleep many a night hugging that damn pillow.
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I've cried myself to sleep many a night hugging that damn pillow.
So sweet.
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I think Jack was in the process of giving up on Ennis. It got to the point where he wished he could quit him. But he couldn't.
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"I wish how to quit you"
Then, they eventually fell in each other arms, Jack comforting a devastated Ennis.
No he coudn't
Now I cry :'(
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Hey Chameau buddy, you want my shoulder? :'( I make it a rule, friends don't cry alone in my presence.
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Hey Chameau buddy, you want my shoulder? :'( I make it a rule, friends don't cry alone in my presence.
No need Cowboy,
This is where I stand, Jack never gave up on Ennis.
Thanks for the shoulder BTW.
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Hey Chameau buddy, you want my shoulder? :'( I make it a rule, friends don't cry alone in my presence.
This is where I stand, Jack never gave up on Ennis.
I have to believe that. The story is unbearable otherwise.
:'(
camom
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Hey Chameau buddy, you want my shoulder? :'( I make it a rule, friends don't cry alone in my presence.
No need Cowboy,
This is where I stand, Jack never gave up on Ennis.
Thanks for the shoulder BTW.
YEE-HAAW I knew I liked you! Jack and Ennis forever!
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Hey Chameau buddy, you want my shoulder? :'( I make it a rule, friends don't cry alone in my presence.
No need Cowboy,
This is where I stand, Jack never gave up on Ennis.
Thanks for the shoulder BTW.
Might need a shoulder now,
Listening to "He was a Friend of Mine"
Sob! :'(
YEE-HAAW I knew I liked you! Jack and Ennis forever!
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I'll always be here for you Chameau! :'(
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I'll always be here for you Chameau! :'(
PBS big time! :'(
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Jeepers...
I could a used a shoulder too... listening to "A Love That Will Never Grow Old"...
*sniff* Jeesh, Ennis... I wish I could quit you!
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
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I firmly believe that Jack didn't quit Ennis - and he never would have. If he hadn't died, he'd have been there in November, just like before. His tryst with Randall was purely physical, with no love involved - even Jack's father says that it never came to anything.
Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.
I also liked the idea that when Ennis said "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" he was really saying "without you" at the end of it - I reckon Jack had got pretty good at reading between the lines when it came to Ennis and he would have realised that's what Ennis meant.
One other thing that makes me believe it would never end is the shirts: if Jack truly had quit Ennis then he might well have put the shirts somewhere else, hidden away, so as not to remind him of what he had loved and lost (we know he went there sometime between their last get together and his death) But the shirts were still there....just like Jack's love for Ennis.
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Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.
Why must you make me cry so early in the morning? :'(
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Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.
Why must you make me cry so early in the morning? :'(
Sorry, tpe - it's well into the afternoon here though ;)
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Sorry, tpe - it's well into the afternoon here though ;)
It's alright. If one has to cry at anytime of the day, it might as well be for this scene...
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My two cents :) lol
Jack never quit Ennis, nor do I think he would have ever quit him. But, I do think or at least wonder, Did Jack look elsewhere. We hear from his father that he was going to bring another man to the ranch. Was this Randall? Was this someone else? I wonder if it was Randall, honestly. Then I think if it was Randall, we know that Jack was leaving Lureen based on what Jacks' dad said, did Lureen think something was going on between them? Thus, Jack is killed because word gets out? Ok, I'm reading too much into it and going off into another topic. But I don't know, I have a lot of questions about who this other man was going with Jack to his fathers ranch. I need to get through reading the short story and the screenplay :)
ann
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Ann, I think he did try.
There was a discussion a while back. In that discussion, it was proposed that Jack felt so terrible about how Ennis was torn apart emotionally in the last meeting that he tried to 'let him be' as a kind of 'sacrifice'.
I can't help thinking that if he tried to forget Ennis, he did it partly to 'free' Ennis from what he thought was a love that was tearing him apart.
I don't know. All I know is that I love these characters so much.
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I firmly believe that Jack didn't quit Ennis - and he never would have. If he hadn't died, he'd have been there in November, just like before. His tryst with Randall was purely physical, with no love involved - even Jack's father says that it never came to anything.
Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.
I also liked the idea that when Ennis said "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" he was really saying "without you" at the end of it - I reckon Jack had got pretty good at reading between the lines when it came to Ennis and he would have realised that's what Ennis meant.
One other thing that makes me believe it would never end is the shirts: if Jack truly had quit Ennis then he might well have put the shirts somewhere else, hidden away, so as not to remind him of what he had loved and lost (we know he went there sometime between their last get together and his death) But the shirts were still there....just like Jack's love for Ennis.
I was going to post something, but it's nonsense since you have expressed exactly the same things I wanted to write, and better 'cause my english is not very good.
Thanks :)
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Ann, I think he did try.
There was a discussion a while back. In that discussion, it was proposed that Jack felt so terrible about how Ennis was torn apart emotionally in the last meeting that he tried to 'let him be' as a kind of 'sacrifice'.
That's what I'm thinking too. Jack never gave up on him, but he "let him be" for Ennis' sake. He didn't want to be the cause of his pain anymore, so he did the sacrifice of letting him go.
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That's what I'm thinking too. Jack never gave up on him, but he "let him be" for Ennis' sake. He didn't want to be the cause of his pain anymore, so he did the sacrifice of letting him go.
forbiddenlovers, I've actually come around to accepting this interpretation. I think it's because it's the only scenario that my heart can live with. Jake Gyllenhaal may beg to differ with this interpretation. But the way every one of us inevitably come to terms with Jack's end is truly personal and special -- it's our own, deep inside.
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So true, tpe, so true. That's my interpretation also. Jack was dying inside as was Ennis because they weren't together like they should have been. The only way Jack knew how to live, was to let Ennis be. I'm sure it killed him though, not the literal killing, but the figuratively sense. I'll always wonder what Ennis meant though in the end, the final words of the movie "Jack, I swear" I swear what? My own idea is Ennis swears that if he had just one more chance with Jack, he would have taken Jack up on his offer to ranch together. But then again, I think that's more than Ennis could have committed to. Maybe he just means "Jack, I swear I'd do things differently" which I guess is still really saying the same thing. Ugh!! Too many interpretations ;D
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So true, tpe, so true. That's my interpretation also. Jack was dying inside as was Ennis because they weren't together like they should have been. The only way Jack knew how to live, was to let Ennis be. I'm sure it killed him though, not the literal killing, but the figuratively sense. I'll always wonder what Ennis meant though in the end, the final words of the movie "Jack, I swear" I swear what? My own idea is Ennis swears that if he had just one more chance with Jack, he would have taken Jack up on his offer to ranch together. But then again, I think that's more than Ennis could have committed to. Maybe he just means "Jack, I swear I'd do things differently" which I guess is still really saying the same thing. Ugh!! Too many interpretations ;D
I know, a bit OOT, but as to the 'I swear...' enigma, I have come to interpret it as: Jack, I swear I shall love only you till the day I die.
It is Ennis's wedding vow.
He will be faithful unto death.
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Now that's a great way to look at it. I think I'll jump in with you on that interpretation!! ;)
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Boy, everyone is killin me with all of these insightful possibilities - noting is incorrect all is tearful!!!
I agree wit everything said ! WOW! (I say that alot with much respect for this movie)
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To quote Jack's dad "'But like most of Jack's ideas, they'd never come to pass" :'(
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To quote Jack's dad "'But like most of Jack's ideas, they'd never come to pass" :'(
Oh, Greenfrog !!!!!! :-[ :-[ :-[
There has been a lovely discussion. You're quotation hits the mark... and I wish it didn't !!!!!
In any case, it does seem extremely probable that Jack had finally given up asking more of Ennis's time. So he filled in the gaps with Randall or Mexican candy.
Tpe, I love your interpretation of "I swear...."
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To quote Jack's dad "'But like most of Jack's ideas, they'd never come to pass" :'(
Oh, Greenfrog !!!!!! :-[ :-[ :-[
There has been a lovely discussion. You're quotation hits the mark... and I wish it didn't !!!!!
In any case, it does seem extremely probable that Jack had finally given up asking more of Ennis's time. So he filled in the gaps with Randall or Mexican candy.
Tpe, I love your interpretation of "I swear...."
stephan, I feel the same way too. He probably gave up aking for more time, but he still loved Ennis. 'Filling the gap' is a good way of putting it.
The foundation is solid. Nothing changes underneath...
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I firmly believe that Jack didn't quit Ennis - and he never would have. If he hadn't died, he'd have been there in November, just like before. His tryst with Randall was purely physical, with no love involved - even Jack's father says that it never came to anything.
Jack's true feelings were laid bare when Ennis collapsed after their argument - he couldn't stand by and watch the man he loved suffering so he went to him and comforted him, as he always did. When Ennis hugged him back, Jack knew that nothing could ever stop him loving Ennis.
I also liked the idea that when Ennis said "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" he was really saying "without you" at the end of it - I reckon Jack had got pretty good at reading between the lines when it came to Ennis and he would have realised that's what Ennis meant.
One other thing that makes me believe it would never end is the shirts: if Jack truly had quit Ennis then he might well have put the shirts somewhere else, hidden away, so as not to remind him of what he had loved and lost (we know he went there sometime between their last get together and his death) But the shirts were still there....just like Jack's love for Ennis.
This says it for me, too. If Jack had lived he would have been back in November and they would have gone through a lot of the same s**t. And yes, Jack had gotten pretty good at reading between the lines. He could see what Ennis couldn't, knew him better than anybody. Like it or not, he would hold the space open for both of them. It could have eventually gotten better. Jack was determined to move back to Lightning Flat. They could have compromised, Jack being closer they could see each other more often even if they didn't live together. They would still argue, love, argue, not speak for a while but always find each other for some Brokeback. Mr. Twist would kick the bucket, be put in that damn family plot and dear Mrs. Twist would have two sons. Word would have to be getting in by now that things were opening up in the cities-the movie takes us into the 80's. Even if they couldn't relate personally to all of that some of it would rub off.
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I like that take on it, Brokeback_Ca - that time would have simplified their complicated lives. Of course, that brings us back to the real tragedy, that they never had the chance to find out.
Never enough time, never enough :'(
Welcome to the madhouse, by the way ;)
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So true, tpe, so true. That's my interpretation also. Jack was dying inside as was Ennis because they weren't together like they should have been. The only way Jack knew how to live, was to let Ennis be. I'm sure it killed him though, not the literal killing, but the figuratively sense. I'll always wonder what Ennis meant though in the end, the final words of the movie "Jack, I swear" I swear what? My own idea is Ennis swears that if he had just one more chance with Jack, he would have taken Jack up on his offer to ranch together. But then again, I think that's more than Ennis could have committed to. Maybe he just means "Jack, I swear I'd do things differently" which I guess is still really saying the same thing. Ugh!! Too many interpretations ;D
I know, a bit OOT, but as to the 'I swear...' enigma, I have come to interpret it as: Jack, I swear I shall love only you till the day I die.
It is Ennis's wedding vow.
He will be faithful unto death.
tpe,
I wish I had words to express my thanks for that "take" on "Jack, I swear..." Of course, Ennis doesn't have the words either, but that is what I believe was in his heart. Beautiful. Bless you. :'( :'( :)
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I like that take on it, Brokeback_Ca - that time would have simplified their complicated lives. Of course, that brings us back to the real tragedy, that they never had the chance to find out.
Never enough time, never enough :'(
Welcome to the madhouse, by the way ;)
Go ahead, burst my bubble! Actually I kept thinking about that that while I was writing. We all want Jack back if things would be just a little different... :( Thanks, NoReins. It's good to be here. :)
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Of course, Ennis doesn't have the words either, but that is what I believe was in his heart. Beautiful. Bless you. :'( :'( :)
proulxfan, thanks. It happens every so often in real life that love is made ever stronger and ever more faithful by death. The ending is such a tragedy, but how many of us would ever be privileged to realize such a love in our lifetimes? Ennis realized it to late, but he still had that love to cherish for the rest of his life. By the precious quality of that love, I believe it will endure.
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Brokeback_Ca,
I love your scenario, and in fact have enjoyed some of the fan fictions that have created alternative outcomes for our boys. I gather there are those who see these as some sort of sacrilege, but I was so devastated by the bleak outlook at the end of both the story and the film, that I needed to find some relief. ( Kind of like Jack going to Mexico! ;) ) But I think it's almost unavoidable to try to figure out some way for things to have worked out better, if not exactly happily. I like your proposal very much, especially the part where Jack's mom gets to have two sons and be rid of her bitter old husband. :D I wonder what my current OT count is ?
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"In some ways I think maybe Ennis' love is stronger because there is a faithfulness to that and I think you see it happen," he admits. "I think Jack eventually says ‘I'm going to have to go on with my life, I'm going to have to find somebody else and find intimacy with him.’ He does, at the end his Dad says he brought some other guy here and they were going to want to work on a farm."
I had not read the above before; but, I tend to agree with Jake Gyllenhaal here and I have agreed with that type of "quitting" since I read the complete published in a book version of the original Annie Proulx short story. I read the story weeks before I saw the movie.
Jack quits Ennis in the sense that he decides that Ennis should not longer have control over his life, the "short lease," as he has had for 20 years.
Jack's love for Ennis does not quit. People can terminate relationships for various reasons and still their love for each other remain constant. I have personally know such people. The guys still saw each other and even went on trips. A mutal friend could not understand why they were still on speaking terms after they split up and I asked him, "Haven't you ever heard of a friendly divorce?"
In the text of the book, Jack's father did not say that his son brought the neighbor up to Lightning Flat; Jack was going to bring him up there. And, where I am from (Oklahoma), when Mr. Twist said, "Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here," one would use "this spring" in a conversation to refer to the current season or the next spring season. If it was summer, fall, or winter, when the person talked about the previous spring, he would say "last spring."
I have read in some people's posting of the time lines of the movie's screenplay, it was a year or more after Ennis had last been with Jack when Ennis went up to Lightning Flat.
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I have to agree with Brokeback_ca. I do not think Jack would of quit Ennis either. In fact, I think that with Ennis sending Jack the postcard to meet in November, I believe that he was reaching out to Jack to make up for their last time together. Becasue we know that people in relationships argue like Jack and Ennis did, and do not stop the relationship.
Also, with one of his daughters now over 18, breaking up with Cassie, realizing that the only love of his life is Jack, now was the time to act on Jack's wish that they would live together. But as we know, that never came to be.
I have to say again, that this movie has touched a part of me down inside that is so very hard to explain to anyone but all of you on this forum. Thank God I have you to talk to! I think I shall be a Brokeback Mountain addict for the rest of my life!
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Sorry TJ, I can't agree that it was over a year later that Ennis went up to Lightning Flat. To me, "this spring" means "the spring of this year" i.e. the spring just past. Jack and Ennis were last together in the spring and, if other get togethers are anything to go by, Jack probably headed up to his parents ranch straight after leaving Ennis (it's a 14 hour journey to Wyoming so he presumably was used to "killing two birds with one stone" - seeing his parents after seeing Ennis) He's angry about what's just happened between them so, instead of talking about Ennis like he always used to, he talks about "some other fella" (Randall in the movie) But, of course, that never happens - perhaps only because Jack dies, or perhaps because he never really intended it to happen, he was just p*ssed at Ennis.
We also know that the next meeting they'd talked about was August - even though Ennis had pretty much already said that wasn't going to happen, I think he sent the card to Jack BEFORE then, just to confirm that November was still looking like his next chance to get away (I can't remember the exact wording on the card - maybe someone can help here) That then comes back marked "deceased" ( :'( ) and Ennis calls Lureen. There's no way that he would have delayed that phone call - and once she tells him that Jack's parents have his ashes but that Jack wanted them scattered on Brokeback, there's no reason to assume that he would have delayed his visit up there for any significant period of time. Maybe a week or two weeks till he composed himself enough, but certainly not months.
Incidentally, before you say it, I know the movie and the book are separate, but I can't recall there being any indication of a significant time gap before the visit to Lightning Flat in the book either.
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We also know that the next meeting they'd talked about was August - even though Ennis had pretty much already said that wasn't going to happen, I think he sent the card to Jack BEFORE then, just to confirm that November was still looking like his next chance to get away (I can't remember the exact wording on the card - maybe someone can help here)
Jack. How about november 7 for you. I can meet you at pine creek Ennis Del Mar
That then comes back marked "deceased" ( :'( ) and Ennis calls Lureen. There's no way that he would have delayed that phone call - and once she tells him that Jack's parents have his ashes but that Jack wanted them scattered on Brokeback, there's no reason to assume that he would have delayed his visit up there for any significant period of time. Maybe a week or two weeks till he composed himself enough, but certainly not months.
Agreed NoReins. After reading the post card he walked directly across the street and called Lureen in the phone booth that was there. He was wearing the same shirt when he was on the phone as when he picked up the mail. This is indication it was the same time.
However, I do think he went up to the Twist ranch on or slightly after November 7th. This was the time he had off for a week and it wasn't too long after he had gotten the post card.
The short story does not indicate how long of a period of time went by before Ennis drove up there but I think you can be sure he went there the first day he could get off from work.
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However, I do think he went up to the Twist ranch on or slightly after November 7th. This was the time he had off for a week and it wasn't too long after he had gotten the post card.
Yeah, that makes sense. If he couldn't get any other time off to be with Jack, then he wouldn't have got time off to go and visit Jack's parents. Good shout, Patriot1.
Thanks for providing the words on the postcard, btw.
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Yes - NoRegns and Patriot1 - everything above makes perfect sence to the timing - the Ennis trip to Jack's parents would have been in November, I think of the clothing. Ennis had on a heavy work jacket when he called Laureen and when he arrive in Lightning Flat..
PS: Jack never gave up on Ennis, I am now convinced! Someone mentioned here or another topic that the "Jack I Swear" scene was Ennis's wedding vow to Jack. This reveal could not have made this journey any more complete. Although Jack may have died having been identified as a "threat" from evil cowards within his society...one thing is for certain when Jack witnessed this scene from his new spiritual/resting place, I am sure his soul warmed with closure.
His eyes definately filled with tears, as did Ennis, and he probable muttered the words it's alright, it's alright tenderly in the wind as it blew against Ennis's trailer. :'(
I am humbled to have been able to connect to this story again and again - still emotional!!!
Any Feelings?
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His eyes definately filled with tears, as did Ennis, and he probable muttered the words it's alright, it's alright tenderly in the wind as it blew against Ennis's trailer. :'(
I am humbled to have been able to connect to this story again and again - still emotional!!!
Any Feelings?
Just the one feeling.....
:'( :'( :'( :'(
I'm proud to be a complete atheist, but I truly love the idea that Jack is watching Ennis and answering him in some way. Thank you, TwoSkins, for that wonderful idea.
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Here is a pic of the exact wording on the "Movie prop" postcard which came back stamped "DECEASED." Why the prop(erties) people had it stamped over the message would not have been the way that a US Post Office Postmaster or Postal Employee would have stamped it.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foxoniensis-art.com%2Fcaps%2Fbrokeback%2Fbrokeback_883.jpg&hash=d5bd7ddcdf94725180a6358b209784b648d60f52)
Notice, Ennis wrote:
Jack,
How about november 7
for you. I can meet
you at pine creek.
Ennis Del Mar
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ah... that a knife in my heart!!!
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OT: Cool. November 7. That's my birthday.
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OT: Cool. November 7. That's my birthday.
Also OT - mine too, Katie :)
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OT: Cool. November 7. That's my birthday.
Also OT - mine too, Katie :)
Mine is Nov. 4.
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That pic hurts bad. Thanks, though. Props to the Scorpios.
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Here's what Annie Proulx wrote in BbM about Ennis Del Mar's vow or "covenanted oath" to Jack Twist:
"Jack, I swear -- " he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.
In the Bible times, men swore oaths to each other and sometimes, one person swore the oath (making a promise) and the other one just accepted it without making any promise whatsoever.
I don't think that Jack Twist gave up on loving Ennis Del Mar; but, I just feel that in what I read in the orignal short story, he gave up chasing after Ennis because of the short lease Ennis kept Jack on. IMO, Jack got tired of Ennis setting all of the rules as to when they got together and where they would meet.
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Here's what Annie Proulx wrote in BbM about Ennis Del Mar's vow or "covenanted oath" to Jack Twist:
"Jack, I swear -- " he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.
In the Bible times, men swore oaths to each other and sometimes, one person swore the oath (making a promise) and the other one just accepted it without making any promise whatsoever.
I don't think that Jack Twist gave up on loving Ennis Del Mar; but, I just feel that in what I read in the orignal short story, he gave up chasing after Ennis because of the short lease Ennis kept Jack on. IMO, Jack got tired of Ennis setting all of the rules as to when they got together and where they would meet.
There is indeed something that can be gleaned from the phrase 'though Jack had never asked him to swear anything ' with respect to whether Jack gave up on Ennis.
Although Jack was always full of dreams and expectations about a shared life with Ennis, he never forced himself on Ennis.
It was always an open-ended thing for him. He did not need a vow from Ennis. He knew that they loved each other, no matter what.
This is why I believe that Jack never gave up in his heart. He knew what he had -- without a promise, without a contract, without even a mention of that most wonderful of all phrases: 'I love you'.
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This is why I believe that Jack never gave up in his heart. He knew what he had -- without a promise, without a contract, without even a mention of that most wonderful of all phrases: 'I love you'.
You put that so beautifully, tpe :'(
I have to believe that Jack knew what he had, despite the fact that Ennis never said anything about how he felt. Some things - sleeping with his arm round Jack on their last night together and even the desperate clutch of Jack's shoulder when he collapses at the lakeside - say more than words.
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Some things - sleeping with his arm round Jack on their last night together...
NoReins, I am a bit taken aback that you mentioned this.
I have one friend who has had a rich and meaningful life of love. When I asked him if he thought Jack gave up on Ennis, he pointed to this very scene that you mentioned. He told me [I paraphrase]: 'Look at them both. They are comfortable in their love. I've known how it is to be that way. When I saw that scene, I knew that even if they were parted, they will always be together one way or the other.'
Would you be surprised if I tell you that this friend of mine considered this scene the most beautiful scene in the entire movie?
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Would you be surprised if I tell you that this friend of mine considered this scene the most beautiful scene in the entire movie?
I wouldn't be surprised at all - I think your friend is right.
I keep saying it, but I'm going to repeat it: where Jack used words to express his feelings, Ennis's reaction was nearly always physical. It happens in the motel room - Jack says "redlined it all the way", Ennis responds by stroking his arm - and it happens in this scene too - Jack says "sometimes I miss you so much..." and Ennis responds by sleeping with his arm round Jack. Even if they didn't actually make love that night (although everything points to this being unlikely), Ennis shows how much he loves Jack by holding him through the night.
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How can anyone with a heart and who has ever been in love think of Jack ever giving up on Ennis when you see Jack's face and hear him say 'Ennis...Ennis' right before they fall into an embrace in that last meeting?
There is an urgency in that face and the tone of voice that speaks of a very deep need.
When he saw how much Ennis was hurt by what he said, it is clear that Jack broke his own heart.
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This thread is like WHOA!!! - Holy Canoly Batman! keep talking TPE and NoReins!
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Right again, tpe.
There's a discussion somewhere about bookends in the film and I think there's another example here. When Ennis collapses at the lakeside, Jack goes to him and holds him, whispering "I'm sorry, it's alright" - just like he did in the second tent scene when Ennis was vulnerable (give or take the argument over whether "I'm sorry" is ever actually said in that scene) All those years earlier on Brokeback he reassured Ennis that everything would be ok, that he was there for him, perhaps already knowing that he was in love with Ennis - and despite all the accusations and bitter words, when Ennis needs him, Jack is there again reassuring Ennis that he still loves him.
(TwoSkins - I keep thinking I've got nothing else to add, then tpe gets me thinking again....)
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Here is a tangental comment in regard to what is in the book (with a thought about what happened at an earlier time in the movie). The last time that Ennis and Jack were together was in the trailhead parking lot. Well, that was a public place. Ennis was very careful in showing his emotions in a public place where other might see him. In the book, the only time Jack was touched by Ennis, in a public place, was when they first saw each other after 4 years and hugged and kissed on the upstairs landing at Ennis' Riverton apartment. When Jack had driven all the way up to Wyoming (in the movie) after Ennis got divorced, Ennis seemed to be concerned that a person driving by on the road might see what was going on with two guys.
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So, back to the book, in the trailhead parking lot, it was not written that Jack even held Ennis after Ennis had what we would call a "nervous breakdown." Before Jack could even touch Ennis when Jack thought he was either having a heart attactk or a fit of rage, Ennis straightened up quickly and acted as though he had not got angry in the first place.
I would say that Ennis definitely needed a hug from Jack at that time but, Ennis would have considered it to be the wrong time and the wrong place.
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There's a discussion somewhere about bookends in the film and I think there's another example here. When Ennis collapses at the lakeside, Jack goes to him and holds him, whispering "I'm sorry, it's alright" - just like he did in the second tent scene when Ennis was vulnerable (give or take the argument over whether "I'm sorry" is ever actually said in that scene)
This is partly OOT, but yes, and I enjoyed the bookends very much. There are a few discussions in the internet regarding the classical structure and cyclic episodes in the movie. The movie in my eyes is all beautiful balance and proportion. The bookends are a manifestation of this sense of balance. It is perhaps one of the most architecturally pleasing movies I have seen with respect to this feature.
All those years earlier on Brokeback he reassured Ennis that everything would be ok, that he was there for him, perhaps already knowing that he was in love with Ennis - and despite all the accusations and bitter words, when Ennis needs him, Jack is there again reassuring Ennis that he still loves him.
In connection with the main topic and this foray into architecture, I should note that Jack's intended decision to move on and share a life with someone else adds deeply to the note of tragedy that moves us so much about this film. Your above observation is essential, I think, in appreciating how significant this was, because it is Jack -- the one who constantly reassures Ennis -- who in the end can no longer reassure himself that their love can ever be brought to the perfection that he had always dreamed.
But what makes this more poigniant is that this decision to move on in no way destroys the dream. The dream of Jack remains a dream -- unfinished and unfulfilled. It is a dream that Jack inevitably passes on to Ennis, by way of his own death. And this is probably the most heartrending bookend of them all. For the dream of love derives new life in Ennis after Jack himself had turned to ashes.
I guess what I am trying to say is that Jack's decision to 'move on' becomes the vehicle by which, in the end, Ennis comes to full realization of their love. Moving on did not mean an end to love. This is obvious to anyone who has ever gone through the death of a loved one. For Jack, it meant resignation and a certain grace (even in bitterness!) to see that their love after all went beyond physical proximity and sex. That is obvious in the final recollection of that dozy embrace. He had come to realize that their love would endure because it remains a dream that is pristine -- untouched by the viscitudes of thier pained and troubled lives.
We know that that dream of love is pristine and pure: because it lived on even after Jack's death -- in that most cherished core that is Ennis himself.
Forgive this meditation, for this is what I write. Jack will always love Ennis even if the shared life he craved for will only remain a dream. This dream of love was Jack's hope, a hope cherished without reference to mundane realities.
And by virtue of this hope, I say that Jack never gave up.
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His eyes definately filled with tears, as did Ennis, and he probable muttered the words it's alright, it's alright tenderly in the wind as it blew against Ennis's trailer. :'(
Any Feelings?
That is a beautiful thought! And I was doing so good with the PBS today too. :'(
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TPE and No Reins- wonderful posts!
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There's a discussion somewhere about bookends in the film and I think there's another example here. When Ennis collapses at the lakeside, Jack goes to him and holds him, whispering "I'm sorry, it's alright" - just like he did in the second tent scene when Ennis was vulnerable (give or take the argument over whether "I'm sorry" is ever actually said in that scene)
This is partly OOT, but yes, and I enjoyed the bookends very much. There are a few discussions in the internet regarding the classical structure and cyclic episodes in the movie. The movie in my eyes is all beautiful balance and proportion. The bookends are a manifestation of this sense of balance. It is perhaps one of the most architecturally pleasing movies I have seen with respect to this feature.
All those years earlier on Brokeback he reassured Ennis that everything would be ok, that he was there for him, perhaps already knowing that he was in love with Ennis - and despite all the accusations and bitter words, when Ennis needs him, Jack is there again reassuring Ennis that he still loves him.
In connection with the main topic and this foray into architecture, I should note that Jack's intended decision to move on and share a life with someone else adds deeply to the note of tragedy that moves us so much about this film. Your above observation is essential, I think, in appreciating how significant this was, because it is Jack -- the one who constantly reassures Ennis -- who in the end can no longer reassure himself that their love can ever be brought to the perfection that he had always dreamed.
But what makes this more poigniant is that this decision to move on in no way destroys the dream. The dream of Jack remains a dream -- unfinished and unfulfilled. It is a dream that Jack inevitably passes on to Ennis, by way of his own death. And this is probably the most heartrending bookend of them all. For the dream of love derives new life in Ennis after Jack himself had turned to ashes.
I guess what I am trying to say is that Jack's decision to 'move on' becomes the vehicle by which, in the end, Ennis comes to full realization of their love. Moving on did not mean an end to love. This is obvious to anyone who has ever gone through the death of a loved one. For Jack, it meant resignation and a certain grace (even in bitterness!) to see that their love after all went beyond physical proximity and sex. That is obvious in the final recollection of that dozy embrace. He had come to realize that their love would endure because it remains a dream that is pristine -- untouched by the viscitudes of thier pained and troubled lives.
We know that that dream of love is pristine and pure: because it lived on even after Jack's death -- in that most cherished core that is Ennis himself.
Forgive this meditation, for this is what I write. Jack will always love Ennis even if the shared life he craved for will only remain a dream. This dream of love was Jack's hope, a hope cherished without reference to mundane realities.
And by virtue of this hope, I say that Jack never gave up.
so beautiful TPE why you are so decided to make me cry everytime i read your post!!!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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so beautiful TPE why you are so decided to make me cry everytime i read your post!!!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Carlos_H82, it's because I cry with you too.
Thank you.
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How can anyone with a heart and who has ever been in love think of Jack ever giving up on Ennis when you see Jack's face and hear him say 'Ennis...Ennis' right before they fall into an embrace in that last meeting?
There is an urgency in that face and the tone of voice that speaks of a very deep need.
When he saw how much Ennis was hurt by what he said, it is clear that Jack broke his own heart.
That's one
His eyes definately filled with tears, as did Ennis, and he probable muttered the words it's alright, it's alright tenderly in the wind as it blew against Ennis's trailer. :'(
Any Feelings?
That is a beautiful thought! And I was doing so good with the PBS today too. :'(
That's two
And by virtue of this hope, I say that Jack never gave up.
And three : tpe, et al - those posts are beautiful - and exactly the way I feel about Jack and his love for Ennis. Thanks for sharing and for expressing it so well!
so beautiful TPE why you are so decided to make me cry everytime i read your post!!!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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I believe he did, he is just like me. (read my post under LOVE IS A FORCE OF NATURE), one can only take so much after trying so hard to make a future with your loved one. Distance be damned! Your life must go on, you know you've tried but you didn't succeed so it makes it easier knowing that if it didn't work, it wasn't because you didn't try. That is the tragedy of Ennis. Jack lived his life as he pleased and I love and respect him and any man or woman that does that because that is how I am in my love life.
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I believe he did, he is just like me. (read my post under LOVE IS A FORCE OF NATURE), one can only take so much after trying so hard to make a future with your loved one. Distance be damned! Your life must go on, you know you've tried but you didn't succeed so it makes it easier knowing that if it didn't work, it wasn't because you didn't try. That is the tragedy of Ennis. Jack lived his life as he pleased and I love and respect him and any man or woman that does that because that is how I am in my love life.
You have Jake Gyllenhaal himself on your side, Frankito. That is as good as in any other company in the republic of opinions.
I do believe something died inside of Jack in that final meeting. But I think it was hope that died, and certainly not love. Perhaps you feel the same way here...
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I do believe something died inside of Jack in that final meeting. But I think it was hope that died, and certainly not love. Perhaps you feel the same way here...
Well said Tpe! I agree with you
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I do believe something died inside of Jack in that final meeting. But I think it was hope that died, and certainly not love. Perhaps you feel the same way here...
Well said Tpe! I agree with you
I like that too...thankx tpe x
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I have to say the first 5 times I saw this movie, I felt that Jack was ready to quit Ennis.
I really don't feel that way now. I do believe Jack had lost hope, probably before their
last meeting. It just all came to a head during that last meeting. Probably shocked the shit
out of Ennis to, because Jack had never stood up to him in that way.
I feel that Jack would have been back though. Don't think he could have stopped himself.
It was almost like the light had gone out in Jack's .
This scene is still so sad for me, that I haven't been able to get past it since I bought the DVD.
I just think about the scene at work and tear up !!
The scene with Ennis at Jack's parents house ..... OMG.....
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I guess what I am trying to say is that Jack's decision to 'move on' becomes the vehicle by which, in the end, Ennis comes to full realization of their love. Moving on did not mean an end to love. This is obvious to anyone who has ever gone through the death of a loved one. For Jack, it meant resignation and a certain grace (even in bitterness!) to see that their love after all went beyond physical proximity and sex. That is obvious in the final recollection of that dozy embrace. He had come to realize that their love would endure because it remains a dream that is pristine -- untouched by the viscitudes of thier pained and troubled lives.
This last scene with Ennis and Jack just kills me every time. I want to scream at my screen "Just get in the damn car and finally be together!" But I'm not so sure Jack actually made the decision to move on. I do think he was fed up with denying who he was and with Ennis' refusal to change and be together. A confrontation between the two of them, with all their issues, was inevitable (after all they were together for 20 years!). But I don't think Jack "quit" Ennis. He laments he wished he knew how to quit Ennis; seems like he's maybe tried but can't. He says "damn you, Ennis" while he's holding Ennis. I think he is saying "damn you, Ennis, you can't admit you love me, won't live with me, but, dammit, I can't let you go." Ennis sends that postcard about Nov. 7th, so Jack must not have told him explicitly the relationship was over. I think Jack is frustrated when Ennis drives away, and he goes up to LF to see his folks immediately after the confrontation. Maybe he's just blowing off steam when he mentions the "other fella" to his folks; kind of like "I'll show him." Maybe Jack was just "thinking aloud." As Jack's dad says "it never came to pass." Now we'll never know if Randall (the other fellow) was anything more than a f*ck buddy to Jack, but to make myself feel better, I always think of it this way. I don't know how it all went down, but, to ease the pain, I picture that if Jack had lived, he would have redlined it all the way to Pine Creek on Nov. 7th.
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I guess what I am trying to say is that Jack's decision to 'move on' becomes the vehicle by which, in the end, Ennis comes to full realization of their love. Moving on did not mean an end to love. This is obvious to anyone who has ever gone through the death of a loved one. For Jack, it meant resignation and a certain grace (even in bitterness!) to see that their love after all went beyond physical proximity and sex. That is obvious in the final recollection of that dozy embrace. He had come to realize that their love would endure because it remains a dream that is pristine -- untouched by the viscitudes of thier pained and troubled lives.
This last scene with Ennis and Jack just kills me every time. I want to scream at my screen "Just get in the damn car and finally be together!" But I'm not so sure Jack actually made the decision to move on. I do think he was fed up with denying who he was and with Ennis' refusal to change and be together. A confrontation between the two of them, with all their issues, was inevitable (after all they were together for 20 years!). But I don't think Jack "quit" Ennis. He laments he wished he knew how to quit Ennis; seems like he's maybe tried but can't. He says "damn you, Ennis" while he's holding Ennis. I think he is saying "damn you, Ennis, you can't admit you love me, won't live with me, but, dammit, I can't let you go." Ennis sends that postcard about Nov. 7th, so Jack must not have told him explicitly the relationship was over. I think Jack is frustrated when Ennis drives away, and he goes up to LF to see his folks immediately after the confrontation. Maybe he's just blowing off steam when he mentions the "other fella" to his folks; kind of like "I'll show him." Maybe Jack was just "thinking aloud." As Jack's dad says "it never came to pass." Now we'll never know if Randall (the other fellow) was anything more than a f*ck buddy to Jack, but to make myself feel better, I always think of it this way. I don't know how it all went down, but, to ease the pain, I picture that if Jack had lived, he would have redlined it all the way to Pine Creek on Nov. 7th.
Great post. I am quite sure Jack would have redlined it all the way to see Ennis. But I never thought about Mr Twist's reference to Randall in that light. I like your idea about Jack 'just blowing off steam.' I'm going to hold onto the idea - makes me feel a little better. :)
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This last scene with Ennis and Jack just kills me every time. I want to scream at my screen "Just get in the damn car and finally be together!" But I'm not so sure Jack actually made the decision to move on. I do think he was fed up with denying who he was and with Ennis' refusal to change and be together. A confrontation between the two of them, with all their issues, was inevitable (after all they were together for 20 years!). But I don't think Jack "quit" Ennis. He laments he wished he knew how to quit Ennis; seems like he's maybe tried but can't. He says "damn you, Ennis" while he's holding Ennis. I think he is saying "damn you, Ennis, you can't admit you love me, won't live with me, but, dammit, I can't let you go."
stacp - that's exactly how I feel about it. Your last sentence is perfect - nothing anyone says will shake my belief that this is precisely what Jack meant when he said "damn you Ennis"
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This last scene with Ennis and Jack just kills me every time. I want to scream at my screen "Just get in the damn car and finally be together!" But I'm not so sure Jack actually made the decision to move on. I do think he was fed up with denying who he was and with Ennis' refusal to change and be together. A confrontation between the two of them, with all their issues, was inevitable (after all they were together for 20 years!). But I don't think Jack "quit" Ennis. He laments he wished he knew how to quit Ennis; seems like he's maybe tried but can't. He says "damn you, Ennis" while he's holding Ennis. I think he is saying "damn you, Ennis, you can't admit you love me, won't live with me, but, dammit, I can't let you go."
stacp - that's exactly how I feel about it. Your last sentence is perfect - nothing anyone says will shake my belief that this is precisely what Jack meant when he said "damn you Ennis"
Absolutely! No doubt about it. That "Damn you Ennis" was full of anguished LOVE.
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stacp - that's exactly how I feel about it. Your last sentence is perfect - nothing anyone says will shake my belief that this is precisely what Jack meant when he said "damn you Ennis"
And yet Jack leaves the parking lot and drives to Lightening Flat and tells his parents he is bringing someone else home to help run the ranch.
No doubt in my mind Jack would always love Ennis, but, he had decided to move on and let Ennis get on with his life.
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stacp - that's exactly how I feel about it. Your last sentence is perfect - nothing anyone says will shake my belief that this is precisely what Jack meant when he said "damn you Ennis"
And yet Jack leaves the parking lot and drives to Lightening Flat and tells his parents he is bringing someone else home to help run the ranch.
No doubt in my mind Jack would always love Ennis, but, he had decided to move on and let Ennis get on with his life.
I love that we can all jump in with different ideas and theories about this story. And we learn so much from each other. But at the same time we cling so fiercely to our own beliefs about our boys and what they felt or would have done, etc.(as I cling to my belief that as much as he might have wanted to, Jack could no sooner let go of Ennis that cut off his own leg :)). There's something so protective about it, don't you think?
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And yet Jack leaves the parking lot and drives to Lightening Flat and tells his parents he is bringing someone else home to help run the ranch.
No doubt in my mind Jack would always love Ennis, but, he had decided to move on and let Ennis get on with his life.
I love that we can all jump in with different ideas and theories about this story. And we learn so much from each other. But at the same time we cling so fiercely to our own beliefs about our boys and what they felt or would have done, etc.(as I cling to my belief that as much as he might have wanted to, Jack could no sooner let go of Ennis that cut off his own leg :)). There's something so protective about it, don't you think?
Absolutely FlwrChild. I think we put ourselves into the role and think of it in the light of, what would we do here. But, there are times when we have to face the facts as they are. Jack went home and told his parents about Randall. That can only mean one thing. He had finally given up on a long term relationship with Ennis.
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Ah. but do we know for a fact that Jack mentioned Randall immediately after the confrontation with Ennis? Or could it have been some time later? Or even before? Maybe he mentioned Randall because he knew there was more chance that Randall would agree to live with him - while never really intending to carry it through? We don't know whether he'd discussed it with Randall either....
Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative (well, maybe a little ;)) but, like I said above, nothing is gonna shake my belief that Jack hadn't quit Ennis, and never would.
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Ah. but do we know for a fact that Jack mentioned Randall immediately after the confrontation with Ennis? Or could it have been some time later? Or even before? Maybe he mentioned Randall because he knew there was more chance that Randall would agree to live with him - while never really intending to carry it through? We don't know whether he'd discussed it with Randall either....
Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative (well, maybe a little ;)) but, like I said above, nothing is gonna shake my belief that Jack hadn't quit Ennis, and never would.
Well, NoReins, we know that Jack and Ennis were together their last time in the spring. We know that Jack was driving to his parents right after that last meeting with Ennis. We know that Mr. Twist said Jack told him this spring he was bring Randall up there. Don't matter if Randall knew about that or not. Ennis never knew either. And we know that Jack and Ennis were to get together again in November of the same year but Jack died before that could happen. So, Jack and Ennis meet in the spring, Jack tells his father Randall is coming up there to help run the ranch in the same spring.
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I guess what I am trying to say is that Jack's decision to 'move on' becomes the vehicle by which, in the end, Ennis comes to full realization of their love. Moving on did not mean an end to love. This is obvious to anyone who has ever gone through the death of a loved one. For Jack, it meant resignation and a certain grace (even in bitterness!) to see that their love after all went beyond physical proximity and sex. That is obvious in the final recollection of that dozy embrace. He had come to realize that their love would endure because it remains a dream that is pristine -- untouched by the viscitudes of thier pained and troubled lives.
This last scene with Ennis and Jack just kills me every time. I want to scream at my screen "Just get in the damn car and finally be together!" But I'm not so sure Jack actually made the decision to move on. I do think he was fed up with denying who he was and with Ennis' refusal to change and be together. A confrontation between the two of them, with all their issues, was inevitable (after all they were together for 20 years!). But I don't think Jack "quit" Ennis. He laments he wished he knew how to quit Ennis; seems like he's maybe tried but can't. He says "damn you, Ennis" while he's holding Ennis. I think he is saying "damn you, Ennis, you can't admit you love me, won't live with me, but, dammit, I can't let you go." Ennis sends that postcard about Nov. 7th, so Jack must not have told him explicitly the relationship was over. I think Jack is frustrated when Ennis drives away, and he goes up to LF to see his folks immediately after the confrontation. Maybe he's just blowing off steam when he mentions the "other fella" to his folks; kind of like "I'll show him." Maybe Jack was just "thinking aloud." As Jack's dad says "it never came to pass." Now we'll never know if Randall (the other fellow) was anything more than a f*ck buddy to Jack, but to make myself feel better, I always think of it this way. I don't know how it all went down, but, to ease the pain, I picture that if Jack had lived, he would have redlined it all the way to Pine Creek on Nov. 7th.
That is a beautiful interpretation of "Damn you Ennis". I don't think Jack would ever give up on Ennis. As it says in the SS "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." I know I am a hopeless romantic and perhaps that clouds my thinking, but to me there is no way Jack could have left Ennis. I hope I get this out the right way because it sounds pretty good in my head-lol They didn't see each other a lot during their 20 years- long distance relationships are hard to begin with and they have the added burden of having the deck stacked against them {society}. Either one of them could have given up at anytime for those reasons alone but their love was too strong. We know Jack had been with other men from time to time and his suggestions of them making a life together are always rebuffed so why can't he quit Ennis? Ennis was a part of his soul. Whatever the pull was that kept that love alive for those 20 years was pretty damn powerful. They were friends as well as lovers.
The look on Jack's face in the dozy embrace was just pure love in a time that held promise and was unmarred by the reality of the world. I don't think that look on Jack's face after the flashback was him giving up on the relationship necessarily, but rather him resigning himself to the fact that it was never going to be more than this. "And maybe , he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be." That passage and the scene from the movie always meant to me that the best was not yet to come, but already was. They'd never be that free to love each other like that after that summer- it would never again be carefree. The contrast in the embraces- the dozy embrace is just pure love and contentment. In the last scene together is them holding on out of frustrastion and comforting each other. I think that look was more of Jack having to accept that he was going to have to make do with Randall {if that was in fact his intention} in terms of having someone with him full time- he would have to settle because his dream wasn't going to come to pass. I think it was more the death of Jack's dream but not their relationship. IMO there was only one thing to keep Jack from Ennis and tragically that did come to pass.
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Very well put LuvJackNasty.
I don't think Jack could give up on Ennis..... even if he wanted to.
Their souls were too connected.
Their best times were on that mountain that first summer, where nothing was wrong, and they
owned the world. It was never to be that free again. Their struggle for freedom to
love that way, is heartbreaking. I mourn for both of these guys.
there wasn't going to be a happy ending. Jack ended up dead, and Ennis ended up the
walking dead. These two characters stole my heart.
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The look on Jack's face in the dozy embrace was just pure love in a time that held promise and was unmarred by the reality of the world. I don't think that look on Jack's face after the flashback was him giving up on the relationship necessarily, but rather him resigning himself to the fact that it was never going to be more than this. "And maybe , he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
That's a very good point - Jack wasn't giving up, just (finally) realising that Ennis was never going to change his mind about having a life together. The dozy embrace flashback reminds him of all the hope he once had when they were free to be together all the time and makes him long to have that back again, while the look on his face as Ennis drives away is that longing, mixed with the sad acknowledgement that it "ain't gonna be that way"
These two characters stole my heart
Yeah, and they keep breaking it over and over :'(
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Thanks everyone for the these wonderful posts.
I have been unable to respond to most of these since yesterday. It is very difficult. It is too difficult. For now, I can just read, and be moved.
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It's to where if I just *think* of that scene of him driving away I lose it.
It's the embodiment of sadness and loss.
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It's to where if I just *think* of that scene of him driving away I lose it.
It's the embodiment of sadness and loss.
I haven't been able to get past that scene for awhile now. Too painful. We know what
is coming, and that is Jack and Ennis's last time together. I can't handle it.
I can hardly watch any trailers of this movie, because of the music. This story is
so tragic and I still cry about these guys almost every day. I don't want to think of
Jack dying. It's like he a member of a family has passed away !
Does that make since?
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It's to where if I just *think* of that scene of him driving away I lose it.
It's the embodiment of sadness and loss.
I haven't been able to get past that scene for awhile now. Too painful. We know what
is coming, and that is Jack and Ennis's last time together. I can't handle it.
I can hardly watch any trailers of this movie, because of the music. This story is
so tragic and I still cry about these guys almost every day. I don't want to think of
Jack dying. It's like he a member of a family has passed away !
Does that make since?
Yes, this makes sense.
Am I crazy, but I cannot bear to see this scene on DVD -- let alone the entire movie...
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Watched the DVD last night....thought of something similar to this question.
The line from Jack caught my attention: "I did, once. His tone and facial expression just hit me that he was letting Ennis go. :'(
And just like everyone here. I can't bear to see this scene. It is just heartbreaking.
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Watched the DVD last night....thought of something similar to this question.
The line from Jack caught my attention: "I did, once. His tone and facial expression just hit me that he was letting Ennis go. :'(
And just like everyone here. I can't bear to see this scene. It is just heartbreaking.
"Good-bye in fear, good-bye in sorrow,
Good-bye, and all in vain,
Never to meet again, my dear" -
"Never to part again."
"Good-bye today, good-bye tomorrow,
Good-bye till earth shall wane,
Never to meet again, my dear" -
"Never to part again."
- Christina Rossetti
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The line from Jack caught my attention: "I did, once. His tone and facial expression just hit me that he was letting Ennis go. :'(
That moment breaks my heart too, Ethan - but I'm still going to stick stubbornly to the belief that Jack wasn't letting Ennis go. I think the "I did, once" is a clear sign that Jack is resigned to never convincing Ennis that they should live together, but for all the recriminations that follow, the key for me is still "I wish I knew how to quit you" - which could just as easily be worded as "I can't quit you because I love you too much".
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"I can't quit you because I love you too much".
:'(
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tpe, thanks for the poem.
NoReins - I think in Jack's mind - Ennis is the love no matter what happens. Jack would never know how to quit Ennis but at the same time he could never have him either.
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tpe, thanks for the poem.
NoReins - I think in Jack's mind - Ennis is the love no matter what happens. Jack would never know how to quit Ennis but at the same time he could never have him either.
But he'd still have been there in November, I'm sure of it.
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Yeah November.... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( it didn't happen
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I'm soooo in the Jack would never quit Ennis camp...I agree completely with stacp that "Damn you, Ennis" meant he could never walk away from this hurt, sweet soul.
And, yes, we've all let off steam saying we'll never talk to this person again, or have dinner with that person, etc...but it's just that usually. Jack tells his dad about Randall but he never follows through with it...and when he's complaining about August and always being in the cold, he says " we oughta go to Mexico."...so Randall wasn't in the plan at that moment.
When Ennis drives away that last time, Jack knows that this is his life...always waiting for those precious moments with Ennis.
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When Ennis drives away that last time, Jack knows that this is his life...always waiting for those precious moments with Ennis.
You're killing me :'( :'(
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I'm soooo in the Jack would never quit Ennis camp...I agree completely with stacp that "Damn you, Ennis" meant he could never walk away from this hurt, sweet soul.
And, yes, we've all let off steam saying we'll never talk to this person again, or have dinner with that person, etc...but it's just that usually. Jack tells his dad about Randall but he never follows through with it...and when he's complaining about August and always being in the cold, he says " we oughta go to Mexico."...so Randall wasn't in the plan at that moment.
When Ennis drives away that last time, Jack knows that this is his life...always waiting for those precious moments with Ennis.
Oh no!!!! i'm crying again!!! i have to bury my head under my coats hood :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Another beautiful, but heartbreaking, thread :'(
I can't think of much to add that hasn't already been said, except that no way would Jack ever give up on Ennis,it's all there in those 8 words: "I wish I knew how to quit you" :'(
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Another beautiful, but heartbreaking, thread :'(
I can't think of much to add that hasn't already been said, except that no way would Jack ever give up on Ennis,it's all there in those 8 words: "I wish I knew how to quit you" :'(
Yep you're all absolutely right!
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Another beautiful, but heartbreaking, thread :'(
I can't think of much to add that hasn't already been said, except that no way would Jack ever give up on Ennis,it's all there in those 8 words: "I wish I knew how to quit you" :'(
And then Ennis had his breakdown. "I can't stand this any more Jack."
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When Ennis drives away that last time, Jack knows that this is his life...always waiting for those precious moments with Ennis.
:'( :'( :'( :'(
Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He cant' take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
-
When Ennis drives away that last time, Jack knows that this is his life...always waiting for those precious moments with Ennis.
You're killing me :'( :'(
Me too! :'(
-
Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
Totally agree, edgar.
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Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He cant' take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
In the final shot of Jack in this scene, you do see the fire in his eyes extinguished. The fire is dead -- but the eyes still see.
-
Wow, what a wonderful thread! One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone. The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved? There was no November ...
Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice". The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls. :'(
From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view. So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy! :-\ I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!
Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack. Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it. (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)
But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take. Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all. With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion. Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life. He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)
Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on. He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy. A moth to a flame. And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.
Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read. My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities. Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??
Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM. Which had better be soon or I may burst! :)
-
Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to self-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on. He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy. A moth to a flame. And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.
MissRed - that's beautiful. Sometimes I think there are things that really are worth dying for (even if it's only metaphorically) - and I believe that Jack felt that about his love for Ennis. Even if it was going to continue to be a "once or twice a year" thing, it would still be the best thing in his life.
-
Wow, what a wonderful thread! One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone. The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved? There was no November ...
Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice". The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls. :'(
From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view. So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy! :-\ I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!
Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack. Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it. (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)
But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take. Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all. With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion. Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life. He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)
Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to self-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on. He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy. A moth to a flame. And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.
Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read. My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities. Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??
Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM. Which had better be soon or I may burst! :)
I agree with NoReins. A wonderful post.
Indeed, I think deep down, I am a fatalist. In a sense, I always think of life in the context of dying -- love is the threshold of parting.
Me, me, and none but me, dart home, O gentle Death,
And quickly, for I draw too long this idle breath:
O how I long till I may fly to heav’n above,
Unto my faithful and beloved turtle dove.
Like to the silver swan, before my death I sing:
And yet alive my fatal knell I help to ring.
Still I desire from earth and earthly joys to fly,
He never happy liv’d that cannot love to die.
(John Dowland)
-
[Sometimes I think there are things that really are worth dying for (even if it's only metaphorically) - and I believe that Jack felt that about his love for Ennis. Even if it was going to continue to be a "once or twice a year" thing, it would still be the best thing in his life.
So true, NoReins, there are things worth dying for. I just wish sometimes that Ennis would have believed the opposite, that some things were worth living for, and that the risk of dying had been one he was able to take. Maybe, if there had been a November ... "sigh"
Like to the silver swan, before my death I sing:
And yet alive my fatal knell I help to ring.
Still I desire from earth and earthly joys to fly,
He never happy liv’d that cannot love to die.
(John Dowland)
Seriously - goosebumps on reading that last line, tpe - you alway find just the right quotes to hit us in the heart. Thank you!
OT (but not really?) was watching an episode of Invasion last week, which you would think would be as far away as you can get from BBM but ... there was a young school teacher, very ill, who was teaching a class of young children about "Character"; She teaches them that two things shape our characters .. how we LIVE, and how we DIE. Of course, I immediately tune out the show and start applying this to BBM, Jack and Ennis's lives, how Jack died for trying to live, how Ennis must find the courage to live until his own ending, without Jack in the world. All roads lead to Brokeback for me these days, it seems ...
Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??
Sorry if OT, just seemed to fit with our discussion of Jack's choices and death and life ... ???
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MississaugaRed, not so OOT here.
Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??
When I view the murder scene in BBM, I now always overlay it with this meditation: what was Jack thinking about in his last moments?
When I meditate on this, I am sure that he was thinking of Ennis. I am sure he was thinking of November. I am sure he was thinking of their love.
I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love. As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.
I remain stubborn in my opinion.
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Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He cant' take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
In the final shot of Jack in this scene, you do see the fire in his eyes extinguished. The fire is dead -- but the eyes still see.
How sadly put...the fire is dead. And, so it is...but the eyes still see the only true love of his life and the only person for whom he would give up another 20 years.
I am, like you, resolute that Jack loved Ennis until the last breath escaped him and would never have been happy supplanting Ennis with any available substitute. JMO.
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How sadly put...the fire is dead. And, so it is...but the eyes still see the only true love of his life and the only person for whom he would give up another 20 years.
I am, like you, resolute that Jack loved Ennis until the last breath escaped him and would never have been happy supplanting Ennis with any available substitute. JMO.
In a deep way, Death was most kind to both of them. It was meant to be that there would be no other.
There is a quiet grace to the death of Hope in the arms of Love.
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How sadly put...the fire is dead. And, so it is...but the eyes still see the only true love of his life and the only person for whom he would give up another 20 years.
I am, like you, resolute that Jack loved Ennis until the last breath escaped him and would never have been happy supplanting Ennis with any available substitute. JMO.
In a deep way, Death was most kind to both of them. It was meant to be that there would be no other.
There is a quiet grace to the death of Hope in the arms of Love.
/quote]
Omigod, tpe, I actually have a real life to live today ( not that the people in my life are nearly as real or as cherished as Jack and Ennis!)...and now, my mascara is running down my cheeks! :'(
I'll be late...and it's all your fault! ;)
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I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love. As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.
I remain stubborn in my opinion.
One should be stubborn in the belief of their love of one another, I completely agree. It was a once in a lifetime love for them both.
The only spectulation can be on what context they may have choosen to honour that love as they moved on through life.
The fact of their love is beyond question, IMO ... (and yours, obviously :) )
In a deep way, Death was most kind to both of them. It was meant to be that there would be no other.
There is a quiet grace to the death of Hope in the arms of Love.
danac will have to loan me her mascara ... your fault again, tpe .. what beautiful words! These should be used at the close of BBM to give comfort to the grieving ... :'(
-
Wow, what a wonderful thread! One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone. The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved? There was no November ...
Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice". The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls. :'(
From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view. So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy! :-\ I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!
Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack. Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it. (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)
But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take. Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all. With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion. Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life. He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)
Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on. He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy. A moth to a flame. And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.
Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read. My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities. Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??
Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM. Which had better be soon or I may burst! :)
I agree there have been so many compelling points on both sides! The pragmatic section of your post strikes a particular chord with me because I am going through this very situation in my own life right now (to give up on your love or not). I have been where Jack is and I have accepted that choosing me might have to mean walking away. But you'll notice from my previious posts that I steadfastly believe Jack would NOT have given up on Ennis! And I don't think that it was ice in his eyes as Ennis drove away. What I saw was more of a deadening. I think something died in him. But I also believe I saw something else still alive in there. He was in pain. And he hurt because he still loved Ennis. The bond was not broken - the cord was not cut. How long that would last with their future meetings, I don't know. But I believe he would have been there in November. And since I have just seen a small glimmer of hope for my own situation, I'm glad that I kept my faith in Jack and Ennis and I will continue to cling to the belief that theirs was a forever love! Sorry for being so sloppy! I don't know if that was even remotely articulate.
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So many lovely thoughts have been shared already... Thank you, everyone.
Presuming the question is still about "giving up" and since I hold steadfastly / stubbornly to the idea that the answer is "no way", one of the questions that comes up in consequence could be something like : when do you know that "going to Mexico" isn't the same as giving up ? Or, in this case, going over to a neighbouring ranch in Texas ?
I would say that one can give up a part of one's dreams for the future, dreams that include someone else, without giving up on that someone else. It would seem that Jack finally gave up on the idea of bringing Ennis to his parents' ranch. Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.
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Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.
Interesting you should say that stephan - that's pretty much what I was thinking during my latest viewing. It may well have been that Jack made one throwaway remark about "another fella", after talking about Ennis for the best part of 20 years, and Mr Twist used that because he knew it would hurt Ennis more than anything else.
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Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.
Interesting you should say that stephan - that's pretty much what I was thinking during my latest viewing. It may well have been that Jack made one throwaway remark about "another fella", after talking about Ennis for the best part of 20 years, and Mr Twist used that because he knew it would hurt Ennis more than anything else.
I like this theory. I always like the ones that help me keep their love - I don't know - somehow sacred I guess. I'll have to pop it in tonight and look at it for myself. Oh darn!
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Interesting you should say that stephan - that's pretty much what I was thinking during my latest viewing. It may well have been that Jack made one throwaway remark about "another fella", after talking about Ennis for the best part of 20 years, and Mr Twist used that because he knew it would hurt Ennis more than anything else.
It happens too often enough in real life, why not in the cinema ? ;)
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Wow, what a wonderful thread! One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone. The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved? There was no November ...
Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.
But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.
Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice". The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls. :'(
From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view. So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy! :- I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!
Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack. Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it. (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)
But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take. Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all. With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion. Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life. He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)
Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on. He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy. A moth to a flame. And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.
Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read. My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities. Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??
Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM. Which had better be soon or I may burst! :)
I love you post. I have always been confliced about whether Jack gave up or not. I do believe he would have been back in
November had he not been killed. As far as the future though? I don't know. I guess there really was no future because
poor Ennis did not want to be queer . His fears and confusion ran so deep. THey both loved each other, no doubt,
but love does not conquer all. I just don't see Ennis changing. When a person has to give up their hopes and dreams,
the realization sets in that you are not really being fulfilled in that relationship. Bitterness sets in. The longing is still
there, but you really can't fix other people. Is settling the thing to do? I don't know.
It is just all so damn tragic.
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Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack. Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it. (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)
But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take. Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all. With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion. Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life. He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)
Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on. He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy. A moth to a flame. And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.
Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read. My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities. Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??
The pragmatic section of your post strikes a particular chord with me because I am going through this very situation in my own life right now (to give up on your love or not). I have been where Jack is and I have accepted that choosing me might have to mean walking away. And I don't think that it was ice in his eyes as Ennis drove away. What I saw was more of a deadening. I think something died in him. But I also believe I saw something else still alive in there. He was in pain. And he hurt because he still loved Ennis. The bond was not broken - the cord was not cut. How long that would last with their future meetings, I don't know. But I believe he would have been there in November.
Miss-Red
Excellent post. I view the scene romantically with maybe a tiny bit of fatalism. I feel it (react to it) more pragmatically because of my own life situation- that really hit me when I was reading your post. I think that is why this scene impacts me so hard and sends me off into a sobbing fit.
There is no "right" or "wrong"- I think we bring our own experiences and feelings into this scene/movie and we view/feel this scene based upon that.
Flwrchild
I'm right there with you situation wise.
We don't know what the future would have held for them. Whether any future meetings would have changed anything one way or the other.
But I hold to my belief that Jack would have been there in November.
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MississaugaRed, not so OOT here.
Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??
When I view the murder scene in BBM, I now always overlay it with this meditation: what was Jack thinking about in his last moments?
When I meditate on this, I am sure that he was thinking of Ennis. I am sure he was thinking of November. I am sure he was thinking of their love.
I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love. As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.
I remain stubborn in my opinion.
TPE,
I can barely view Jack's murder, let alone think of it. If I let myself think too much about it I'd probably need to be sedated. But yes I do believe that those thoughts in his final moments were of Ennis and of their love. I can't go any deeper because I will start to lose it- no matter how many times I have seen the movie I still can't come to terms with Jack's fate. :'(
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MississaugaRed, not so OOT here.
Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??
When I view the murder scene in BBM, I now always overlay it with this meditation: what was Jack thinking about in his last moments?
When I meditate on this, I am sure that he was thinking of Ennis. I am sure he was thinking of November. I am sure he was thinking of their love.
I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love. As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.
I remain stubborn in my opinion.
TPE,
I can barely view Jack's murder, let alone think of it. If I let myself think too much about it I'd probably need to be sedated. But yes I do believe that those thoughts in his final moments were of Ennis and of their love. I can't go any deeper because I will start to lose it- no matter how many times I have seen the movie I still can't come to terms with Jack's fate. :'(
Me neither :(
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I can barely view Jack's murder, let alone think of it. If I let myself think too much about it I'd probably need to be sedated. But yes I do believe that those thoughts in his final moments were of Ennis and of their love. I can't go any deeper because I will start to lose it- no matter how many times I have seen the movie I still can't come to terms with Jack's fate. :'(
I have seen the movie well over 100 times and have only seen Jack's murder once. I got sick to my stomach and now either close my eyes or cover them everytime. Jack is too real to me for me to watch his death.
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THAT scene is so painful to even think about.
As the cliche goes, you see your entire life pass before your eyes in your last moments...
With Jack, I would like to think that the very last thing he 'saw' was that first summer on BBM. With this thought, Jack must have been beyond any mortal pain.
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THAT scene is so painful to even think about.
As the cliche goes, you see your entire life pass before your eyes in your last moments...
With Jack, I would like to think that the very last thing he 'saw' was that first summer on BBM. With this thought, Jack must have been beyond any mortal pain.
That is a beautiful thought! Here I go again! :'(
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Okay, thanks for the distinction presented between romantic, pragmatic, and fatalistic interps. (But in the end, the fatalistic interp is rather romantic anyway.)
Surely a battle was going on inside Jack between his heart and his head. He had to decide whether to keep the relationship with Ennis going, even though Ennis always pulled back, always disappointed Jack.
I think we can safely say this: that Jack's *head* decided it was time to move on. So he says, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and tries to hurt Ennis; tries in effect to break up with Ennis. To keep this idea going, he then reports to his parents that he's going to bring Randall up to the homestead.
HOWEVER, Jack's heart was of course attatched to Ennis's wtih an unbreakable cord. So (in the short story) when Jack sees Ennis fall to his knees in what seems to be a "heart attack" or stroke, he immediately runs to him. Though he *wishes* he knew how to quit Jack, he is unable to deny the bond between them.
So, I propose, Jack's head gave up on Ennis, while his heart kept him bound to Ennis. Jack pursues the relationship with Randall as fully as he can, which gets him killed. And maybe all the cognitive dissonance he experiences by being with Randall while his heart is still with Jack is what leads to the increased drinking that Lureen reports.
So much suffering. Jack suffered for twenty years in that relationship; Ennis suffers for the rest of his life after Jack dies.
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That is a beautiful thought! Here I go again! :'(
Same here :'(
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So many lovely thoughts have been shared already... Thank you, everyone.
Presuming the question is still about "giving up" and since I hold steadfastly / stubbornly to the idea that the answer is "no way", one of the questions that comes up in consequence could be something like : when do you know that "going to Mexico" isn't the same as giving up ? Or, in this case, going over to a neighbouring ranch in Texas ?
I would say that one can give up a part of one's dreams for the future, dreams that include someone else, without giving up on that someone else. It would seem that Jack finally gave up on the idea of bringing Ennis to his parents' ranch. Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.
I agree, I felt Jack's dad was definitely twisting (sorry! :-[) the knife with that remark, I remember thinking "you cruel *******" when he said it the first time I watched it >:(
But leading on from there, am I the only one who doesn't think Jack had any intentions whatsoever of moving there with either Ennis or Randall?
Jack never got on with his dad,and his dad wasn't exactly happy about Jack being gay, never mind setting up home with his boyfriend on his land.I can't see that being the 'sweet life' Jack was talking about, and anyway, he never said anything to Ennis about moving to his dad's place, only about them getting their own place, or Ennis moving to Texas(unless I missed something) ??? I think he probably taunted(for want of a better word) his dad with talk of him and Ennis running the ranch, and eventually Jack's dad said sometyhing like "you've been saying that for years, so where is this Ennis guy?" and Jack, rather than admit that Ennis wouldn't ever be with him, said that he had someone else now. Or something like that ::)
No way will anyone ever convince me that Jack had given up on Ennis for anyone, let alone Randall (I don't know why but I just don't like him :-[), I refuse to believe Randall was, or ever could be, more than just a **** buddy to Jack.
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I think I already said this once, many months ago, on this thread: What about Jack's not being able to stand the way Ennis hurts any more? Maybe it isn't "giving up" on Ennis so much, as realizing that he doesn't want the one he loves to suffer any more. Witness their last meeting: Pure suffering. Sometimes you just have to let somebody go, especially if you love them (and Ennis even says it "Why don't you"). Well, Jack did: In the supreme act of love and, yes, self-respect: He let Énnis go, quite the opposite of giving up on him.
To me, it is astonishing, how much need for them to be together for ever I feel in most of the posts on this thread: For them to be together forever, even if it makes them lose their selfrespect, even if it means suffering forever. Forgive me, but in a way, that seems very cruel. Why shouldn't Jack try for something in his life that might satisfy him? Even if he fails, at least he would have tried! With Lureen, there was never any chance. And for Ennis there is not much of a chance either, seeing that he can't cope with being gay. But Jack at least had a chance to try and make it work. I would have liked him to try, then maybe come back to Ennis anyway. Or, even better: have Ennis come back to him. But for that kind of thing, you have to really let go.
Hey, this is only my opinion, I do respect the "romantic" viewpoint, sometimes can't help seeing it that way myself.
monicita
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I think I already said this once, many months ago, on this thread: What about Jack's not being able to stand the way Ennis hurts any more? Maybe it isn't "giving up" on Ennis so much, as realizing that he doesn't want the one he loves to suffer any more. Witness their last meeting: Pure suffering. Sometimes you just have to let somebody go, especially if you love them (and Ennis even says it "Why don't you"). Well, Jack did: In the supreme act of love and, yes, self-respect: He let Énnis go, quite the opposite of giving up on him.
To me, it is astonishing, how much need for them to be together for ever I feel in most of the posts on this thread: For them to be together forever, even if it makes them lose their selfrespect, even if it means suffering forever. Forgive me, but in a way, that seems very cruel. Why shouldn't Jack try for something in his life that might satisfy him? Even if he fails, at least he would have tried! With Lureen, there was never any chance. And for Ennis there is not much of a chance either, seeing that he can't cope with being gay. But Jack at least had a chance to try and make it work. I would have liked him to try, then maybe come back to Ennis anyway. Or, even better: have Ennis come back to him. But for that kind of thing, you have to really let go.
Hey, this is only my opinion, I do respect the "romantic" viewpoint, sometimes can't help seeing it that way myself.
monicita
Thanks monicita. I do agree with the above interpretation.
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While I admit to being a true romantic, I do think you have a good point, monicita.
I do NOT think Jack ever really gave up on Ennis. He saw his hurting, but what about Jack? He was hurting, too. Everytime he made an overture to Ennis, he was rejected. Time after time,after time this happened. Jack just kept on coming back for more.
After their last scene together, Jack may have hyped up the action with Randall, but, I still think he would have dropped everything in his life at just one word from Ennis that Ennis wanted him. He would have redlined it to anywhere on earth to be with Ennis, even after all the hurt.
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Because that's what you do for love.
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It is indeed!
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These are my thoughts:
JAck did not give up on the love for Ennis, He will always love him, but he gave up trying to change Ennis to eccept his feelings.
Jack found someone else he could build his 'gay' life with, and got killed bacause of it (he divforced his wife, she found out about his gay feelings, and had him beaten up to a point he died)
Ennis knows, pushing him even deeper in living a lie (end scene with him closing the door of the 'closet' with the shirts and the brokeback mountain postcard)
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These are my thoughts:
JAck did not give up on the love for Ennis, He will always love him, but he gave up trying to change Ennis to eccept his feelings.
Jack found someone else he could build his 'gay' life with, and got killed bacause of it (he divforced his wife, she found out about his gay feelings, and had him beaten up to a point he died)
Interesting that we agree on these two points. I know that the second point (about Lureen being responsible for Jack's murder) is not shared by a lot of people. Let us just say that this point is a possibility.
Ennis knows, pushing him even deeper in living a lie (end scene with him closing the door of the 'closet' with the shirts and the brokeback mountain postcard)
I don't know if I would agree with this interpretation, but it certainly is plausible. I am aware that your interpretation would be quite unpopular with a lot of other people, but suffice to say that it is a valid interpretation -- among many possible ones. In a way, your view has a grain of truth to it, IMO.
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These are my thoughts:
Jack did not give up on the love for Ennis, He will always love him, but he gave up trying to change Ennis to accept his feelings.
Jack found someone else he could build his 'gay' life with, and got killed bacause of it (he divforced his wife, she found out about his gay feelings, and had him beaten up to a point he died)
Interesting that we agree on these two points. I know that the second point (about Lureen being responsible for Jack's murder) is not shared by a lot of people. Let us just say that this point is a possibility.
Ennis knows, pushing him even deeper in living a lie (end scene with him closing the door of the 'closet' with the shirts and the brokeback mountain postcard)
I don't know if I would agree with this interpretation, but it certainly is plausible. I am aware that your interpretation would be quite unpopular with a lot of other people, but suffice to say that it is a valid interpretation -- among many possible ones. In a way, your view has a grain of truth to it, IMO.
Well it's just the way she reacts.
"Who, who is this" Sitting down acting like she don't know him and then saying: "Jack used to mention you, your his fishing buddy and hunt buddy. I know that.." indicates she knows more about Ennis than meets the eye imo.
Then she tells the story about the tire blowing up like it is something she's been studying on to say when people ask what happened.
Then she tells about the cremation and the ashes like shes on automatic pilot, not expressing any feelings about it..
After Ennis tels her about brokeback mountain, something snaps in her. Like she already knew because Jack already told her, but she would not believe it. But now she knows, hearing it from Ennis. And here eyes are filling up with tears. She can't deny it anymore
Then Ennis says: "Thank you for your time. I really am Sorry, we were good friends" and that is the wakeup-call for Jacks wife. At that moment she knows what she did was wrong.
To soften her own pain she then tells Ennis to visit Jacks folks. She says: "get in touch with his folks, they would appreciate it if his wishes were carried out." Adding later "with the ashes I mean"
Oh well, thats my interpetainion of the scene. :)
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Though it probably hurt him like lemon on a wound, i think Jack was fixing to go on, he didn't want to follow Ennis forever. He quit him, but he didn't quit loving him
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Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....
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Jack's death sets him, fossilizes him, if you like, as he is at forty; it could and does to some extent fossilize Ennis too, though there are signs of a change in him. But we don't, can't know the naswer to whether Jack goves up - Ennis doesn't. In practical terms Ennis is coming to the end of the child-support payments too; maybe when both the girls were off his hands he might have felt himslef freer - but again we don't and can't lknow.
The only thing i know is that love if it's the real thing never dies; it can be hidden, apparently dowmant but can spring back into lives like thaose desert plats that wait years till it rains, then suddenly flower. If their is truly a love that will never grow old, then it would rekindle at the slightest chance. so it all comes down to whether you believe that ech was the love of the other's life, and I do.
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Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....
ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus
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Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....
ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus
Would it be too much to ask that you offer the translation in the same message for us ignorant people?
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The only thing i know is that love if it's the real thing never dies; it can be hidden, apparently dowmant but can spring back into lives like thaose desert plats that wait years till it rains, then suddenly flower. If their is truly a love that will never grow old, then it would rekindle at the slightest chance. so it all comes down to whether you believe that ech was the love of the other's life, and I do.
That is so beautiful welshwitch :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....
ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus
Would it be too much to ask that you offer the translation in the same message for us ignorant people?
I will try...
O death, where is your victory, O death, where is your sting
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Thanks frances! And congrats for 4600!!
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Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....
ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus
Would it be too much to ask that you offer the translation in the same message for us ignorant people?
I will try...
O death, where is your victory, O death, where is your sting
Thank you TPE. Foreign languages are not my strong suit.
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Thanks Patriot1 and frances. I have to thank mars for his beautiful initial post.
And as welshwitch said, true love never dies.
OOT: I join FlwrChild in congratulating frances. :)
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You're welcome Tpe! :)
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Since reading these last posts and the new topic 'Why Jack Quit Ennis' I have been thinking about this a lot. One thing that I have come to recognize is the fact that it is me personally that needs Jack not to have quit on Ennis. Jack was always a man with dreams, an optimist looking for happiness. He has had his life taken from him, his future taken from him, I don't want to have to cope with thinking that in his last weeks he had had his dream taken from him as well. It is a most depressing thought. But even though I now accept the arguments for Jack having quit on Ennis, I still can't bring myself to believe them, not all the time anyway.
Yes, Jack was thinking about it. Of that I have no doubt. His whole demeanour on that last trip screams it out to me. Sitting by the fire passing the joint to each other Jack seemed really... tired, depressed, pensive, I can't think what word to use... WORN OUT would probably cover it. He is man IMO who was reaching the end of the road. I think that's why he says to Ennis about missing him so much he can hardly stand it, he's telling Ennis he loves him in the only way that Jack thinks he can get away with. He's trying to move the relationship on - he wants to see if it is possible. He wants to see if it's getting too much for Ennis too. He wants a reaction. He gets nothing.
I think that is another nail in the coffin of their relationship for Jack, but not the final one. If it were he would have had it out there and then, he'd already said more than normal, already taken a risk. He would surely have said 'I'm not sure about August, it's getting too much for me' or something like that if he had been ready. Make no mistake I do think that was the decision he was coming to, but I think he hadn't reached it yet. I think he'd decided to try and open things up this trip and see what happened. I think he probably always had decided that after this trip he would think about his future if he got no resolution. Maybe then talk to Randall about setting up home together, I don't think he would have before seeing where the land lay with Ennis. I think if Randall had suggested it and had been pressing Jack for an answer, he still would not have committed until trying to speak to Ennis first.
What happened was, his attempt at telling Ennis he couldn't cope with their separations anymore not only fell on deaf ears but Ennis then says at the last minute that August is out too. This disappointment was the catalyst for Jack showing Ennis the truth about how he was feeling. The owning up to Mexico letting Ennis know Yes, he was gay. Telling Ennis that he couldn't make it on a couple of 'high altitude f**** twice a year, that he hardly ever got something he needed. There is no mistaking what he is telling Ennis. This ain't no fun thing - this is something Jack needs. This is love.
Not that I think for one minute that Ennis needs telling that. I think he knows that only too well already. That is his biggest problem. He might have trouble accepting they're both gay, but he certainly knows it. When you love someone you know it, you might not like it, you might try to hide it.You may well try it fight it. But how can you not know it? If you lust after something, you can tell yourself that it is just the thing that you like, but if you lust after that thing with one specific person, how can you not know? (I know I'm on dangerous ground here, it's only my opinion based on my own experience, maybe others are different, please don't shout at me too loudly!) Even when you don't want the other person to know that you love them, you can't help yourself knowing. Even when you don't want to. All those years ago when Jack asked them to set up home together, he was showing that he loved Ennis. The way he keeps coming back after twenty years shows Ennis that he loves him, and I've no doubt that in their loving Jack shows Ennis that it is love not just lust he feels.
No IMO this is not something that shocks Ennis, he already knows it. What it is, is having to admit it, having it said, is what has an impact. Having to face it. Realizing Jack is tired of the way their relationship is. Finally admitting that so is he. He can't stand it anymore. The lying, the loneliness, the guilt, the shame, all of it.
Now at this point I think that Jack has been looking at it all from his own side. HE wants more. HE can't stand it. He was thinking of ending it for himself. Now that he sees that Ennis can't stand anymore either, you could say and I know that a lot of people do, that he decides to end it for the both of them. He loves Ennis so much that he sets him free. Despite just saying that he couldn't quit him. The effect of seeing the toll that it is taking on Ennis makes him set Ennis free not for himself, but for Ennis. He couldn't do it for himself, but for Ennis he could do anything including give up his own dreams. That is (horribly for me) VERY PLAUSIBLE.
But I can't help thinking that they've just had a cataclysmic moment. NOTHING can ever be the same again. Neither of THEM can be the same again. Their RELATIONSHIP will never be the same again. They BOTH can't stand it anymore. They BOTH know it. I just can't see Jack quitting now. This is his chance to have that honesty and reaction that he had been looking for around the campfire. Maybe Ennis was incapable of it, but I think that he had to be given more than the few minutes they had left together to think about it.
Everything had changed for Jack because the conditions that he was thinking about ending it for had changed. Now he knew Ennis couldn't go on like that either.
If it was going to end, it was going to end soon enough, by their next meeting in fact. IMO. So why not make that meeting? We know that they arranged it because Ennis sent the postcard. So whatever he thought, he was at least going to tell Jack. Maybe he would have tried to just carry on as they were, then I think that Jack would have ended it. Maybe Ennis would have ended it in November. But at least they would have talked about it. When I think this way I can't think that Jack wouldn't have thought this too and waited to find out. Yes, the relationship as it was was tearing Ennis apart. But Jack was willing to change it so that it didn't. All Ennis had to do was give the word. He didn't have to go on being hurt, either Jack would break the relationship up (for BOTH their sakes) or change it and get what he wanted. Being the optimist he was, I can't believe Jack would give up when things were changing, he would have waited to see what Ennis said in November.
If only we had been allowed to hear what they said to each other immediately prior to Ennis driving away. That is too big a piece of the puzzle missing. Did they say, 'lets wait till November and discuss it then' they must have said something Ennis couldn't just drive off without saying anything. Jack is still hurt, he is still tired, he is still worn out, he still thinks it may be over, he still loves Ennis enough to give up on his own dreams if he has to, but ultimately,he still doesn't know whats going to happen. Nothing is resolved. Thats my take on the expression on his face. I've said in another post why I think that what he said to his dad about living on the twist ranch with Randall didn't mean anything to me. He also told his dad for years that Ennis was coming up. He was feeling pessimistic at that moment and thinking out loud, letting his mouth run away with him. (That's our Jack! :)) But would probably think something else when he was in an optimistic mood!
Now, depending on my mood, I entertain both ideas, (which makes me sad because I like the second one more, it lets me think that Jack didn't die without his dream of finally having Ennis) and I've come to the conclusion that I will never really know. I think the true answer for me to the question 'was Jack giving up on Ennis' is ... How long is a piece of string. (Where I come from this is a common way of answering an unanswerable question, meaning basically, ....why ask me? there's too much we don't know to answer.) How I would love to ask Annie Proulx!
Sorry to go on. It's only my opinion...just thinking out loud... (I'd like to put a smiley face, but this topic makes me too sad!) :\'(
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(...)
Yes, Jack was thinking about it. Of that I have no doubt. His whole demeanour on that last trip screams it out to me. Sitting by the fire passing the joint to each other Jack seemed really... tired, depressed, pensive, I can't think what word to use... WORN OUT would probably cover it. He is man IMO who was reaching the end of the road. I think that's why he says to Ennis about missing him so much he can hardly stand it, he's telling Ennis he loves him in the only way that Jack thinks he can get away with.(...)
Thank you for these thoughts, Rosie. I hadn't thought about "worn out" and it seems very plausible. It happens in our lives ! Waiting and hoping does wear you out. It can wear out love too. :\'(
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Rosie, if it is of any comfort to you, I think their love never died.
That Jack quit Ennis did not mean that he had stopped loving him.
Have you lost something really precious? I have. Would you not agree with me that you love it all the more because it is gone?
There is nothing more profound than a love rooted in renunciation and loss. This was Jack's gift to Ennis, in a way. And in the end, Ennis must have known that his love for Jack will also never die.
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Rosie, that was beautifully put and so well thought out! I too can't make myself believe that Jack gave up on Ennis. And for many of the reasons that you listed. [I also don't think Mr. Twist's comments prove anything conclusively.] Thank you for sharing your opinions with us! ^f^
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"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick"; i think Jack was sick at heart by the end, and probably to some degree from the divorce scene onwards. However, that doesn't mean that he didn't still hope. I have to say that i sometimes think Ennis's hopes are quite differnt; in the scene where they talk about pursuing women, he smiles as though he's just enjoying a joke with an old friend. I wonder if he doesn't hope that the sexual aspect of the realtionship will die the death - Jack senses this too, in the "couple of high-altitude f**ks" speech - and wants that part of the thing to give way to a simple friendship which wouldn;t tear him apart.
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"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick"; i think Jack was sick at heart by the end, and probably to some degree from the divorce scene onwards. However, that doesn't mean that he didn't still hope. I have to say that i sometimes think Ennis's hopes are quite differnt; in the scene where they talk about pursuing women, he smiles as though he's just enjoying a joke with an old friend. I wonder if he doesn't hope that the sexual aspect of the realtionship will die the death - Jack senses this too, in the "couple of high-altitude f**ks" speech - and wants that part of the thing to give way to a simple friendship which wouldn;t tear him apart.
welchwitch, beautiful, that line describes so eloquently what happens to Jack in this relationship, thank you! Certainly from the divorce scene on, maybe even from the point that Ennis rejects Jack's dream of a life together that first time, during that first reunion. So very sad ...
Don't know if I can see either of them ending their physical relationship and being content to simply be friends, though .... :-\\ Although that is certainly a valid premise, given Ennis's bone deep conflict with is nature ... Hadn't ever thought about that before!
I think, though, in the end it would have been just too painful for them to see each other if that physical connection that has always been between them was broken. If you believe (as I know I do) that this is love - irreplaceable, once-in-a-lifetime, earthy love - and not a deep friendship that got mixed up in sex, then as long as they still love each other (and I believe that they did, regardless of their unhappiness at the end) platonic friendship doesn't seem likely.
They had been lovers for 20 years, been through the deepest kind of emotional struggles, lived with the regrets and the frustrations along with the hope deferred; how do you put that aside to just be friends?? Ennis would have been deluding himself (not a big stretch I guess) if he honestly believed he could give up sleeping with Jack and stay friends, imo.
I don't believe Jack gave up on Ennis, but for agruments sake, I would say that IF Jack left Ennis, he would have left him all the way. And if Ennis had wanted to just be friends, to give up on their physical relationship because dealing with his sexuality was too painful, I don't think Jack would have gone for that, either. He'd always wanted more from Ennis, certainly knew what he wanted from a relationship with a man ... can't see him settling for less than he'd had even over those hard years, not from someone he was still in love with ...
maybe I'm talkng through my hat, what do I know from men ... ? ::) Interesting idea, ww .. ^f^
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MissRed, I think you got it exactly right! And welshwitch, you're certainly right about Jack being sick at heart (though I don't believe he gave up on Ennis - I just can't :(). And Lord knows Ennis was good at hiding from himself. But as much as he might want to convince himself they could just be friends, he'd take one look each time they met and that would be that. Poor boys... :\'(
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lamusica,
I want to believe that too. He would have come back, if there had been a signal from Ennis, a clear signal of love. But was Ennis capable of giving that? And wasn't it so much braver of Jack to say (my interpretation) "as long as we can't be together and respect ourselves and each other, I want to think of the love we had as something wonderful, and I want to preserve what was wonderful about it (vide the flashback scene), but I no longer want to cause myself and him such unending pain." Oh, I ache for them both, darling Jack, darling Ennis %)
monicita
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Blimey. Rosie, welshwitch, MissRed and FlwrChild - those are some serious posts. You've really got me thinking again.
For what it's worth, I still can't believe that Jack would actually have quit Ennis. Certainly, he wanted to get away from the pain of watching Ennis drive away time after time but I can't stop thinking that, having laid it all on the line during this argument, he would have come back in November hoping that the fact that their feelings were out in the open (between themselves) would have made a difference. He had spent 20 years hoping without ever telling Ennis exactly how he felt, surely he would have wanted to know whether this knowledge had changed Ennis' way of thinking.
I also think that Ennis' "I can't stand this anymore Jack" could be taken more than one way - sure, it could mean that he couldn't stand the relationship anymore, but it could also mean that he couldn't stand the pain of leaving Jack any more than Jack could.
On the subject of Ennis wanting to end their physical relationship and be just friends - I don't believe he could have done that, or even that he would have wanted to, despite it being the thing that caused the most problems for them (because of Ennis' hang-ups and because of society) Although friendship came first, the sexual attraction was so strong that neither could deny it or stop it, even when things weren't as idyllic as that first summer on Brokeback - there's a passage in the short story that has them both grumbling about their kids on a later not-fishing trip but undoing buttons at the same time. Of course, their friendship was comfortable and easy - making it appear that it would have been easier if that's all it was - but the brilliant charge was still there, right to the end, and they both knew it.
I think I need to go and read a "happy-ending" fanfic now to cheer myself up :\'(
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FlwrChld, NoReins .... <^( <^(
For what it's worth, I still can't believe that Jack would actually have quit Ennis. Certainly, he wanted to get away from the pain of watching Ennis drive away time after time but I can't stop thinking that, having laid it all on the line during this argument, he would have come back in November hoping that the fact that their feelings were out in the open (between themselves) would have made a difference. He had spent 20 years hoping without ever telling Ennis exactly how he felt, surely he would have wanted to know whether this knowledge had changed Ennis' way of thinking.
I also think that Ennis' "I can't stand this anymore Jack" could be taken more than one way - sure, it could mean that he couldn't stand the relationship anymore, but it could also mean that he couldn't stand the pain of leaving Jack any more than Jack could.
On the subject of Ennis wanting to end their physical relationship and be just friends - I don't believe he could have done that, or even that he would have wanted to, despite it being the thing that caused the most problems for them (because of Ennis' hang-ups and because of society) Although friendship came first, the sexual attraction was so strong that neither could deny it or stop it, even when things weren't as idyllic as that first summer on Brokeback - there's a passage in the short story that has them both grumbling about their kids on a later not-fishing trip but undoing buttons at the same time. Of course, their friendship was comfortable and easy - making it appear that it would have been easier if that's all it was - but the brilliant charge was still there, right to the end, and they both knew it.
I think I need to go and read a "happy-ending" fanfic now to cheer myself up :\'(
Beautifully said, NoReins - And so sad because the way you've laid it out the potential for their happy-ending was there, had Jack lived. :\'(
(yes, there will be happy-ending fanfic reading in my near future, too, after this dose of "reality" :( )
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lamusica,
I want to believe that too. He would have come back, if there had been a signal from Ennis, a clear signal of love. But was Ennis capable of giving that? And wasn't it so much braver of Jack to say (my interpretation) "as long as we can't be together and respect ourselves and each other, I want to think of the love we had as something wonderful, and I want to preserve what was wonderful about it (vide the flashback scene), but I no longer want to cause myself and him such unending pain." Oh, I ache for them both, darling Jack, darling Ennis %)
monicita
Monicita, even though most of us cling to the belief that Jack and Ennis would never have been able to give each other up, what you've said here is the one counter-point that would make them quitting each other a possibility, while still being a sign of their love for each other. This seems to me to be the reason why we're even debating the question in the first place, because sometimes being strong can mean letting go. ^f^ I can completely see your point, even if I'm part of the "Jack would never quit; Ennis would always stand it" team. ;)
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Yep, the fan-fic is never far away for me. I wonder how I would stand it without? :-\\
Sorry OT.
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OT, too, FlwrChld, but ... Actually, I worry that my bf will soon give up on me ... if I don't put down the FF and start talking to him in the evenings! ;D
Maybe not so OT, because I've found that reading some of the "what-if" scenarios from the FF gives me new perspectives on where that last fight might have lead. As NoReins so beautifully put it earlier, with things out in the open a bit more, maybe there was a chance to heal and move forward. I think at the end they had (as the ss says) "torqued" things back enough to where they had been that November would have happened for them. And so much more might have followed ... :(
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OT, too, FlwrChld, but ... Actually, I worry that my bf will soon give up on me ... if I don't put down the FF and start talking to him in the evenings! ;D
Maybe not so OT, because I've found that reading some of the "what-if" scenarios from the FF gives me new perspectives on where that last fight might have lead. As NoReins so beautifully put it earlier, with things out in the open a bit more, maybe there was a chance to heal and move forward. I think at the end they had (as the ss says) "torqued" things back enough to where they had been that November would have happened for them. And so much more might have followed ... :(
And we'll never know where it might have gone... and neither wil poor Ennis... :-\\
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I think at the end they had (as the ss says) "torqued" things back enough to where they had been that November would have happened for them. And so much more might have followed ... :(
You know, that's something that so many people seem to forget when discussing this - that the short story did actually say that things were back to how they had been before the argument. I think the movie attempts to show this when, despite everything that's been said, Jack goes to comfort Ennis when he breaks down in tears, but then the last shot we see is of Jack's face as Ennis drives away and he looks so defeated. Perhaps it's this shot that makes this discussion so interesting - without it maybe most people would be in the "November would have happened" team.
OT - I don't know if I'm good enough to be in the team, MissRed, but I'm happy to be a cheerleader &**) &**) &**)
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OT - I don't know if I'm good enough to be in the team, MissRed, but I'm happy to be a cheerleader &**) &**) &**)
Are you kidding? After the posts you just made! ::) Good enough to be HEAD cheerleader, NoReins .. &**) ... and pretty good with a can-opener, too. ;)
And even though like you I try to keep the short-story and movie separate, as they are two distinct works of art, imo, the story also says that nothing was resolved at the end of this (you can problably quote it exactly, 'cause I know how good you are with it!) and that to me is what is reflected so brilliantly in the last image of Jack, watching Ennis drive away. Jack's realization that in spite of finally letting out some of what has been eating them both alive for 20 years, at that moment, nothing had really changed. That would include, to my mind, Jack's continuing to make the drive north, and Ennis continuing to meet him out in the back of beyond.
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From the short story:
"...they torqued things almost to where they had benn, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
And then:
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
The 'let be' does it for me. He wasn't going anywhere.
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From the short story:
"...they torqued things almost to where they had benn, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
And then:
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
The 'let be' does it for me. He wasn't going anywhere.
Thanks for that FlwrChild. I couldn't remember the exact passage from the ss.
I do like your interpretation of "let be, let be", and I share it, but I can see how others get that Jack was going to quit Ennis from that passage too. Jack has realised that they've never moved beyond the fact that Ennis doesn't want to think about the fact that he's with a man and it's time to let it be and move on to someone who is comfortable with his sexuality.
Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(
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Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(
Maybe like Jack and Ennis were going around in circles, trying to reconcile their hearts with their heads?
The beauty of BBM ... it doesn't tell us what to believe but leaves us room to think, and find our own answers.
And of course, since we're all perfectly rational people where BBM is concerned, we're usually able to see the other side of a discussion, even when we may lean toward another ...
(yeah ...I know ... I don't really buy the "rational" comment myself ;D maybe I should have used another description ... ?? ::) )
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Wonderful exchange. Thanks all. "let be, let be" is my favorite line in the entire short story. It is at the heart of the topic of this thread.
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Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(
Maybe like Jack and Ennis were going around in circles, trying to reconcile their hearts with their heads?
The beauty of BBM ... it doesn't tell us what to believe but leaves us room to think, and find our own answers.
And of course, since we're all perfectly rational people where BBM is concerned, we're usually able to see the other side of a discussion, even when we may lean toward another ...
(yeah ...I know ... I don't really buy the "rational" comment myself ;D maybe I should have used another description ... ?? ::) )
Hell, I'm rational....except when someone argues that Jack was going to quit Ennis at which point I become a lunatic ^*() I'm just too damn protective of what I uphold as a pure love that would have gone on forever...too much of a romantic, I guess.
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Me too, NoReins, me too!
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Me too, NoReins, me too!
Ditto! <^(
There are worse things than being too romantic ... soft hearts bring light into the world... like Jack's does for Ennis ... <^(
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Oh that's beautiful MissRed! <^(
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Boy, am I happy to be reading these posts! &**)
NoReins,MissisaugaRed, flwerchild, I'M WITH YOU! O0
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"The knowledge that Ennis would not THEN embrace him face-to-face" is the clue to this thread's answer. Jack knew - AT THE TIME OF THE EMBRACE - that Ennis would not want to admit to himself that he held a man. BUT later on, that changed. The word "then" is crucial, to me. It shows that the relationship did expand greatly after the time of that embrace which we know occurred when they were very young ( no gray hair and no lines on their faces). Surely, by the time of the reunion kiss, Ennis knew damned well he was holding and kissing a man, and he surely was not shying away from that fact. He went for the kiss gangbusters.
I'm with all of you who refuse to believe Jack quit Ennis. By his own words, he couldn't do that. He said he WISHED he could quit him, but he knew, and we do, too, that he wasn't ablt to do that. That doesn't mean he may not have become more involved with Randall, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't run when Ennis called. To me, that's the love part of this whole situation.
quote author=NoReins link=topic=304.msg218270#msg218270 date=1154442538]
From the short story:
"...they torqued things almost to where they had benn, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
And then:
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
The 'let be' does it for me. He wasn't going anywhere.
Thanks for that FlwrChild. I couldn't remember the exact passage from the ss.
I do like your interpretation of "let be, let be", and I share it, but I can see how others get that Jack was going to quit Ennis from that passage too. Jack has realised that they've never moved beyond the fact that Ennis doesn't want to think about the fact that he's with a man and it's time to let it be and move on to someone who is comfortable with his sexuality.
Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(
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I read "Let be. Let be" as an expression of almost resignation - "Well, that's how it is and it's not going to change." The question is who's the "speaker" - is it Jack or the author?The sentence before is Jack's thoughts - "Maybe they'd never got much father than that", the "that " referring to Ennis not wanting to acknowledge it was Jack he held. To me this is Jack saying there was no point in going on thinking about it or trying to change it, becaus that was the situation and " if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it." And in the end I think he would have stood it, as in the end, even if in a changed relationship, so would Ennis.
If it's the author's comment, the meaning changes to a sort of farewell - it's followed immediately by the passage where Ennis finds out that Jack is dead.
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As a new boy who has only just seen the film and like everyone else here received a real emotional kick in the guts from it, can I offer my opinion. Apologies if I'm going over old ground but the real genius of BBM is that it can generate and tolerate this amount of examination and informed discussion. I haven't seen a film before that made me think so deeply.
I think Jack would have loved Ennis for ever and they would have remained soulmates. But Ennis can't provide everything that Jack needs - the couple of high-altitude f***cks aren't enough and look like they are going to get fewer. Jack has found and will continue to find other outlets - Mexico, Randell - and he's taken trouble to ensure that Ennis doesn't find out about this because he knows the reaction it will provoke. When Ennis asks whether Jack has any other ideas for dealing with the unsatisfactory situation, Jack doesn't say "Yes - lets get a ranch together" he says "I did once" implying that he knows that option is closed off for ever. So the only future is to carry on as before or "let be" - but for that to happen Ennis would have to accept Jack as a gay man (which has become clear after the "Mexico" exchange between them) and not feel threatened by Jack's other relationships. I'm not convinced Ennis could have done that and his reaction in referring to "boys like you" suggests problems in the future- so perhaps the scene represents the begining of the end. The passion between them is as powerful as ever but both are being destroyed in different ways by it and both would like to find some way to end it but can't. Perhaps they had both got to the stage where it couldn't be fixed and they couldn't stand it either.
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Thank you for this great post scribe and welcome in, I see it's your first time posting here.
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Hi Scribe and welcome. :) No apologies are necessary- I'm glad you found you're way to this wonderful forum. I'm sure that reading and posting will help you with that "kick in the guts"- I know it did for me. :c)
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As a new boy who has only just seen the film and like everyone else here received a real emotional kick in the guts from it, can I offer my opinion. Apologies if I'm going over old ground but the real genius of BBM is that it can generate and tolerate this amount of examination and informed discussion. I haven't seen a film before that made me think so deeply.
I think Jack would have loved Ennis for ever and they would have remained soulmates. But Ennis can't provide everything that Jack needs - the couple of high-altitude f***cks aren't enough and look like they are going to get fewer. Jack has found and will continue to find other outlets - Mexico, Randell - and he's taken trouble to ensure that Ennis doesn't find out about this because he knows the reaction it will provoke. When Ennis asks whether Jack has any other ideas for dealing with the unsatisfactory situation, Jack doesn't say "Yes - lets get a ranch together" he says "I did once" implying that he knows that option is closed off for ever. So the only future is to carry on as before or "let be" - but for that to happen Ennis would have to accept Jack as a gay man (which has become clear after the "Mexico" exchange between them) and not feel threatened by Jack's other relationships. I'm not convinced Ennis could have done that and his reaction in referring to "boys like you" suggests problems in the future- so perhaps the scene represents the begining of the end. The passion between them is as powerful as ever but both are being destroyed in different ways by it and both would like to find some way to end it but can't. Perhaps they had both got to the stage where it couldn't be fixed and they couldn't stand it either.
Scribe, your wonderful post really made me think. You know what, the main reason for my attempts to justify that Jack is leaving Ennis, might be that I'm so afraid of what might have happened if they had just gone on. Torturing each other until they might even be ready to kill each other. It happens often enough: Sane people let go, when they are being hurt too badly, but if love is obsession, people are often incapable of letting go, and that is why people kill each other for love. I would even go further: I have seen that kind of relationship (love and hate, all mixed up, but never able to make a clean cut and start something new) in my parents. And that makes me feel so strongly about letting go. Scribe, your post has opened a whole new area of soul searching for me (in a good way) ^f^ I love this site and all of you!
monicita
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In a sense, Death saved them both. Death took Jack perhaps at that moment when it was most difficult for him. I do think he was at the point of "releasing" Ennis. I don't think he would have survived this in any case.
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In a sense, Death saved them both. Death took Jack perhaps at that moment when it was most difficult for him. I do think he was at the point of "releasing" Ennis. I don't think he would have survived this in any case.
:\'(
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Lie in peace, Jack. Our love goes out to you.
monicita
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In a sense, Death saved them both. Death took Jack perhaps at that moment when it was most difficult for him. I do think he was at the point of "releasing" Ennis. I don't think he would have survived this in any case.
:\'(
Double :\'( :\'(
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LJN, monicita, and MississaugaRed: I cry with you here.
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Geez, here I go too. :\'( :\'(
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I just found an interesting saying that I thought I'd share with you all.
"Its better to aim for the stars and hit the lamp post ,than to aim for the lampost and hit the gutter."
Anyone else get the feeling that Jack was aiming for the stars, but ended up in the gutter? :\'( :\'( :\'(
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It looks like Jack did give up on his wanting to have the sweet life with Jack... but no I am sure he still had feelings for Ennis.... :\'( :\'(
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The sad thing is that Ennis so comprehensively trashed Jack's dreams, over and over. Even if Jack had given up on Ennis ( and I don't think he would have because he's never have stopped hoping) it would be understandable. "Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams," is something he could have said to Ennis many times.
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The sad thing is that Ennis so comprehensively trashed Jack's dreams, over and over. Even if Jack had given up on Ennis ( and I don't think he would have because he's never have stopped hoping) it would be understandable. "Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams," is something he could have said to Ennis many times.
Yes, Welschwitch, I think you are right here. Jack the dreamer finally had to face reality.
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When Ennis asks whether Jack has any other ideas for dealing with the unsatisfactory situation, Jack doesn't say "Yes - lets get a ranch together" he says "I did once" implying that he knows that option is closed off for ever.
:h) Scribe, :)
My opinion is..When Ennis asks Jack whether he has any better ideas, he is trying to shift some of the blame. I think he knows he has really upset Jack. Jack has just told him that sometimes he misses him so bad he can hardly stand it. He must have been able to see the same way that we could that Jack was very down this trip. He's admitted his marriage is in bad shape and he can hardly cope without Ennis and now Ennis is letting him down over August. I think Ennis is trying to say to Jack 'hey this is not my fault'... 'I can't help it, it's the jobs fault'.... 'I can't quit this one'....I'm doing the best I can here' .... 'You gotta better idea?'....(you couldn't do any better).. and Jack could be implying by his answer of 'I did once'.. it is your fault because we wouldn't be in this situation if you had taken my idea all those years ago.....'look where your way has led us'... basically telling Ennis off. I think he was just getting in the mood as I have said in a previous post in this thread to say some of the things that he really felt. He wasn't in the mood to say "Yes, lets get a ranch together" Not necessarily meaning that that option is forever closed, but it is certainly closed in this conversation, because Jack is ready to have it out with Ennis and tell him some truths. It wasn't the time to suggest living together. As I said in my previous post things needed to change. Jack can't stand it anymore and he wants to let Ennis know that. Saying "I did once" was the line he used to start that, knowing that was going to lead on to other things being said. I do think that Jack the dreamer finally had to face reality and that included having it out with Ennis and either changing or ending it as I've said before...Just my opinion (I'm a stubborn little thing aren't I?)........ I just want them to be together :\'(
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I do think that Jack the dreamer finally had to face reality and that included having it out with Ennis and either changing or ending it as I've said before...Just my opinion (I'm a stubborn little thing aren't I?)........ I just want them to be together
Hi Rosie. I totally agree that Jack has to face reality at this point. The flashback (and even more, the short story) suggest to me that he realises that things are never going to be the same as they were 20 years ago and that Ennis is never going to change. Perhaps he would have adapted to the situation but, as someone else has said, Death intervenes - so we never find out for sure.
I also agree that the Romantic in all of us wants there to be a happy ending and for Jack and Ennis to live happily ever after - but BBM wouldn't be such a powerful story and film with that happy ending.
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It's as if in these final sequences both are to some degree facing the fact that time as passed and they are no longer the young men who met on Brokeback, that you can't go back to things as they were - meeting only rarely over a long period has allowed them to forget this, in that each new meeting must have felt like a continuation of the last - but now the illusion is disappearing. They are almost forty and presumably the amount of time they can keep on "going fishing" is finite. What they ar realising, not very consciously, is that life changes you and circumstances; you have to move on.
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I also agree that the Romantic in all of us wants there to be a happy ending and for Jack and Ennis to live happily ever after - but BBM wouldn't be such a powerful story and film with that happy ending.
ain't that the truth! ^f^
I was reading a book that included movie quotes today and one just jumped out of the page at me. It's for all of you who think that Jack did quit Ennis (You know I'm not one of you...well not always...but I'm getting 50/50..hope dies hard!) Here's the quote:
A relationship, I think, is like a shark. You know?
It has to constantly move forward or it dies.
And I think what we got on our hands is a dead shark.
Woody Allen as Alvy Singer in Annie Hall
Just had to post that one. But.... you see...it might move forward.... (there's just no stopping me!) Here I go in circles again. %&)
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Keep the faith Rosie! I don't care if it's reasonable, I don't think Jack would ever quit Ennis. As long as there was breath in his body, he was breathin' it for Ennis. Couldn't help himself, poor boy. :\'( <^(
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Keep the faith Rosie! I don't care if it's reasonable, I don't think Jack would ever quit Ennis. As long as there was breath in his body, he was breathin' it for Ennis. Couldn't help himself, poor boy. :\'( <^(
His life taken, his future taken, please.... not his dream too..... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Let him have thought that Ennis had been thinking on it, and knowing he couldn't stand it the way it was any longer either, he was going to make a change and move the relationship forward in November... PLEEEEEEASE!
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It's entirely possible to go on loving someone although you know they're never going to do what you want them to; that Jack relizes that Ennis isn't going to give in and share that "sweet life" doesn't mean that he stops loving him for a minute. If you love someone for what they are, then you don't just stop because you can't. In other words, I thonk Jack gave up on the illusion that thiongs would one day be as he wanted them; he didn't give up on Ennis.
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It's entirely possible to go on loving someone although you know they're never going to do what you want them to; that Jack relizes that Ennis isn't going to give in and share that "sweet life" doesn't mean that he stops loving him for a minute. If you love someone for what they are, then you don't just stop because you can't. In other words, I thonk Jack gave up on the illusion that thiongs would one day be as he wanted them; he didn't give up on Ennis.
Very well said.
I think most of us agree that Jack never gave up loving Ennis. I do think Jack gave up on having a sweet life with Ennis after that last meeting.
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I think most of us agree that Jack never gave up loving Ennis. I do think Jack gave up on having a sweet life with Ennis after that last meeting.
I totally agree that Jack will never stop loving Ennis. Their love is so strong that even death won't stop it. But as sad as it may be, Jack also realizes his dreams will not come true. I hate to think about that. I also think Jack is trying to quit Ennis because he loves him too much. How successful was that "quit" is something we'll never know.
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I totally agree that Jack will never stop loving Ennis. Their love is so strong that even death won't stop it. But as sad as it may be, Jack also realizes his dreams will not come true. I hate to think about that. I also think Jack is trying to quit Ennis because he loves him too much. How successful was that "quit" is something we'll never know.
This is what I believe in.
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I think Jack might've tried to quit Ennis, but it was tearing him apart. Like Lureen said, "he [Jack] drank a lot". If Jack could barely stand being away from Ennis for a long period of time, how could he stand never seeing him again? I think he would've came in November but demanded some changes. But if he really did give up on Ennis and he thought Ennis didn't want to see him again ("let me be"), I think he was ready to die. If only he knew Ennis wanted to see him in November....
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I think Jack might've tried to quit Ennis, but it was tearing him apart. Like Lureen said, "he [Jack] drank a lot". If Jack could barely stand being away from Ennis for a long period of time, how could he stand never seeing him again? I think he would've came in November but demanded some changes. But if he really did give up on Ennis and he thought Ennis didn't want to see him again ("let me be"), I think he was ready to die. If only he knew Ennis wanted to see him in November....
If only.... :(
Now I wonder if he felt relieved at the end? 'It's over; it's done. I'll have peace at last.' :-\\ :\'(
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And sometimes I wonder is it possible Jack broke it off with Randall, like Ennis did Cassie. Ennis knew he was never going to be happy with Cassie. Sometimes I wonder did Jack think the same thing about Randall. That could be a reason why his idea "never came to pass". Maybe Jack being with Randall just made his life worst. Sex might be good when you're doing it but afterwards (if it's not with the right person), it just makes you feel lonely and worst. Which probably just made Jack miss Ennis even more. That's what I think could've possibly happened with Jack.
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Very good point browneyes! Thank you.
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And sometimes I wonder is it possible Jack broke it off with Randall, like Ennis did Cassie. Ennis knew he was never going to be happy with Cassie. Sometimes I wonder did Jack think the same thing about Randall. That could be a reason why his idea "never came to pass". Maybe Jack being with Randall just made his life worst. Sex might be good when you're doing it but afterwards (if it's not with the right person), it just makes you feel lonely and worst. Which probably just made Jack miss Ennis even more. That's what I think could've possibly happened with Jack.
Yes, nicely said, browneyes. IMO, Jack would never be happy without Ennis. He was trying to move on. I really think death, in a way, spared him the disappointment.
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There comes a point in a relationship that's going nowhere and causing increasing pain wher one accepts that the best thing to do is make a clean break. After the amputation, because that's what it is, there's a temporary euphoria and an illusory sense of possibilities opening up now the feeling of entanglement and entrapment is gone. But the reality is that the possibilities never seem worth pursuing. or if pursued turn to dust while the loss comes back over and over - if love is involved, it can't be amputated, and every attempt to deny it only makes things worse.
There are times when I see Jack in this position and think that he was at least dead and free of the situation that torments him.
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As I said before in another thread. I think the Ennis/Cassie realationship is supposed to be similar to the Jack/Randall. Cassie was attracted to Ennis as was Randall to Jack. And Ennis acted/pretended he was interested, as did Jack. Eventually Ennis and Cassie get together as does Jack and Randall. Even though with Jack and Randall it was probably more for sex (I didn't get that vibe with Cassie, I think she really wanted to be with someone). Ennis can't devote himself to Cassie because he's devoted to Jack. Same with Jack and Randall (even though Randall probably didn't care or was the same way). So Ennis eventually breaks it off with, her as (possibly) Jack did with Randall. It's just a thought.
And this in something else I've concluded. After Jack talks to Ennis about the thing with the "foreman's wife", and then he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"- I think after that he probably thought or wanted to say "that is why I look for consolation with other men, alcohol, anything to help me stand the pain of being away from you, but at the end of the day the pain is still there".
You dig it? ;)
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And this in something else I've concluded. After Jack talks to Ennis about the thing with the "foreman's wife", and then he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"- I think after that he probably thought or wanted to say "that is why I look for consolation with other men, alcohol, anything to help me stand the pain of being away from you, but at the end of the day the pain is still there".
You dig it? ;)
I'm digging it, browneyes! He's confessing to more then simpling missing Ennis. Love your interpretation! O0
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And this in something else I've concluded. After Jack talks to Ennis about the thing with the "foreman's wife", and then he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"- I think after that he probably thought or wanted to say "that is why I look for consolation with other men, alcohol, anything to help me stand the pain of being away from you, but at the end of the day the pain is still there".
You dig it? ;)
I do thjink this is true. "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" was a cry from the heart. It was also a sort of confession. I did think Ennis understood, but remained speechless.
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There are times when I see Jack in this position and think that he was at least dead and free of the situation that torments him.
Come, Sleep! O Sleep, the certain knot of peace,
The baiting-place of wit, the balm of woe...
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There comes a point in a relationship that's going nowhere and causing increasing pain wher one accepts that the best thing to do is make a clean break. After the amputation, because that's what it is, there's a temporary euphoria and an illusory sense of possibilities opening up now the feeling of entanglement and entrapment is gone. But the reality is that the possibilities never seem worth pursuing. or if pursued turn to dust while the loss comes back over and over - if love is involved, it can't be amputated, and every attempt to deny it only makes things worse.
There are times when I see Jack in this position and think that he was at least dead and free of the situation that torments him.
I can see you point on this, welshwitch. When people suffer physically we can come to see death as a mercy. So why not when they've suffered so much emotionally?
I just can't see Jack as every being a quitter though, not of life. He wouldn't (I think) willingly have gone out of this world when a future may have brought better things. Even if he cut himself off from Ennis ( a big IF) I just have trouble picturing that big-hearted dreamer ever believing that death was better than life, regardless of the pain. :-\\
But that's just my take on him ... maybe he was ready for the quiet, in the end ...
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Did you guys hear that supposedly in the script, after Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was originally gonna say "I know the feeling". But I guess they didn't want to include that. I think it would've been great if he said. It would give more proof to Jack that Ennis does love him.
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Did you guys hear that supposedly in the script, after Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was originally gonna say "I know the feeling". But I guess they didn't want to include that. I think it would've been great if he said. It would give more proof to Jack that Ennis does love him.
Perhaps. The silence is quite ambivalent. Some people have interpreted this silence in a negative light -- as a refusal to acknowledge Jack's implicit declaration of love. I really don't know. That silenece can be interpreted both ways: as a refusal or an implicit acknowledgement. It depeneds on your perspective. For Ennis to have said something would have removed that ambivalence. Not exactly sure if this is good or bad.
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Did you guys hear that supposedly in the script, after Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was originally gonna say "I know the feeling". But I guess they didn't want to include that. I think it would've been great if he said. It would give more proof to Jack that Ennis does love him.
Perhaps. The silence is quite ambivalent. Some people have interpreted this silence in a negative light -- as a refusal to acknowledge Jack's implicit declaration of love. I really don't know. That silenece can be interpreted both ways: as a refusal or an implicit acknowledgement. It depeneds on your perspective. For Ennis to have said something would have removed that ambivalence. Not exactly sure if this is good or bad.
I don't think the silence was a negative. We know Ennis is a man of few words. He had trouble saying what he feels. But in the very next seen we see Ennis and Jack asleep in the tent with Ennis's arm around Jack. I think he could always show Jack how he felt about him even if he couldn't say it.
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Did you guys hear that supposedly in the script, after Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was originally gonna say "I know the feeling". But I guess they didn't want to include that. I think it would've been great if he said. It would give more proof to Jack that Ennis does love him.
Perhaps. The silence is quite ambivalent. Some people have interpreted this silence in a negative light -- as a refusal to acknowledge Jack's implicit declaration of love. I really don't know. That silenece can be interpreted both ways: as a refusal or an implicit acknowledgement. It depeneds on your perspective. For Ennis to have said something would have removed that ambivalence. Not exactly sure if this is good or bad.
I don't think the silence was a negative. We know Ennis is a man of few words. He had trouble saying what he feels. But in the very next seen we see Ennis and Jack asleep in the tent with Ennis's arm around Jack. I think he could always show Jack how he felt about him even if he couldn't say it.
For the record, I interpreted this silence as an implicit acknowledgement. :)
Again, it depends on the viewer. I have read very good contrary arguments in this forum.
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There comes a point in a relationship that's going nowhere and causing increasing pain wher one accepts that the best thing to do is make a clean break. After the amputation, because that's what it is, there's a temporary euphoria and an illusory sense of possibilities opening up now the feeling of entanglement and entrapment is gone. But the reality is that the possibilities never seem worth pursuing. or if pursued turn to dust while the loss comes back over and over - if love is involved, it can't be amputated, and every attempt to deny it only makes things worse......
The first part of your post really struck me ww. But I like to think that that may be what happened to Ennis. That's why he sent the postcard about November. Whatever he said on the spring trip, he now knew that he could stand it. What he couldn't stand was being without Jack.
If only Jack had made that November meeting. And I'm in one of my - yes he would have, he'd have had to find out what Ennis was thinking -moods.
But at the very least, I think that maybe neither of them knew what was going to happen. I think that November would have been a turning point, but one that wasn't already set. A decision that they would come to together. They'd had their time to think on their own. November would have been the time to tell the other what they had concluded, see what the other one thought and move on from there. Wherever that lead. I just don't think you can end a twenty year relationship without talking about it together. Even if you both don't come to the same conclusion.
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But at the very least, I think that maybe neither of them knew what was going to happen. I think that November would have been a turning point, but one that wasn't already set. A decision that they would come to together. They'd had their time to think on their own. November would have been the time to tell the other what they had concluded, see what the other one thought and move on from there. Wherever that lead. I just don't think you can end a twenty year relationship without talking about it together. Even if you both don't come to the same conclusion.
I wish it were so. Even if the short story said that things got torgued back to almost where it had always been, I sense that Ennis needed only a slight perturbation. Not usre, but how I wish this were so.
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Did you guys hear that supposedly in the script, after Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was originally gonna say "I know the feeling". But I guess they didn't want to include that. I think it would've been great if he said. It would give more proof to Jack that Ennis does love him.
Perhaps. The silence is quite ambivalent. Some people have interpreted this silence in a negative light -- as a refusal to acknowledge Jack's implicit declaration of love. I really don't know. That silenece can be interpreted both ways: as a refusal or an implicit acknowledgement. It depeneds on your perspective. For Ennis to have said something would have removed that ambivalence. Not exactly sure if this is good or bad.
I don't think the silence was a negative. We know Ennis is a man of few words. He had trouble saying what he feels. But in the very next seen we see Ennis and Jack asleep in the tent with Ennis's arm around Jack. I think he could always show Jack how he felt about him even if he couldn't say it.
For the record, I interpreted this silence as an implicit acknowledgement. :)
Again, it depends on the viewer. I have read very good contrary arguments in this forum.
A lovely discussion, tpe & browneyes!
Ennis's lack of a verbal reply to ".. I miss you ..." allows us to view it as a silent acknowledge (if you're of the mind to read it that way, which of course I am!) and certainly plays into how most of the movie was presented. Not telling us everything, leaving room between what we are told and what we know intutively. There are other instances where they've deliberately pared down the speech in order to allow more room for the viewer to read into the moments what they "see" or "sense" from them instead of merely what they "hear", I think. We've mentioned before that there was dialogue in the ss for the motel scene that never made it to the sp or film, likely for that very reason. In a (great) film with great actors, vocalization isn't the only method for relaying the intent of the story. God knows, Jake and Heath conveyed plenty when words weren't spoken at all ... :(
So for ambivalence, also we have the look on Jack's face when Ennis is driving away for the last time. Could be that look of sadness and frustration on Jack's face is a signal that he's had all he can take; could be he's feeling as bad for Ennis as he is for himself and knows in spite of that he's going to keep coming back until Ennis tells him otherwise ... The "wish I knew how" part of the quitting, more ambivalence, more discussion here by those who read it one way or another.
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A lovely discussion, tpe & browneyes!
Ennis's lack of a verbal reply to ".. I miss you ..." allows us to view it as a silent acknowledge (if you're of the mind to read it that way, which of course I am!) and certainly plays into how most of the movie was presented. Not telling us everything, leaving room between what we are told and what we know intutively. There are other instances where they've deliberately pared down the speech in order to allow more room for the viewer to read into the moments what they "see" or "sense" from them instead of merely what they "hear", I think. We've mentioned before that there was dialogue in the ss for the motel scene that never made it to the sp or film, likely for that very reason. In a (great) film with great actors, vocalization isn't the only method for relaying the intent of the story. God knows, Jake and Heath conveyed plenty when words weren't spoken at all ... :(
So for ambivalence, also we have the look on Jack's face when Ennis is driving away for the last time. Could be that look of sadness and frustration on Jack's face is a signal that he's had all he can take; could be he's feeling as bad for Ennis as he is for himself and knows in spite of that he's going to keep coming back until Ennis tells him otherwise ... The "wish I knew how" part of the quitting, more ambivalence, more discussion here by those who read it one way or another.
Yes, I have read this in some other posts (it could have been one of yours, MississaugaRed). I must say that it made me realize that the silence could be interpreted the other way. I do agree that Jack's face was sad the next morning, but I had initially connected this with leavetaking and the inevitable wait for another chance to meet.
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......So for ambivalence, also we have the look on Jack's face when Ennis is driving away for the last time. Could be that look of sadness and frustration on Jack's face is a signal that he's had all he can take; could be he's feeling as bad for Ennis as he is for himself and knows in spite of that he's going to keep coming back until Ennis tells him otherwise ... The "wish I knew how" part of the quitting, more ambivalence, more discussion here by those who read it one way or another.
The discussion here by people who see things differently to me is what keeps me coming back. Along with the posts of people who see it the same way that I do, of course. But to say the way I do there is wrong, because now during the course of these discussions I find that sometimes when I go back to the film I can see things in the other way. Which gives me more to discuss and think about! It's a very pleasant little circle we got going on here.... <^( But I still think that face shows anger, depression, but unknowing too. If he had just decided to let Ennis go for good and never see him again, I think he would look more tearfull and less angry. (Sorry - I just couldn't help myself ^f^)
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But at the very least, I think that maybe neither of them knew what was going to happen. I think that November would have been a turning point, but one that wasn't already set. A decision that they would come to together. They'd had their time to think on their own. November would have been the time to tell the other what they had concluded, see what the other one thought and move on from there. Wherever that lead. I just don't think you can end a twenty year relationship without talking about it together. Even if you both don't come to the same conclusion.
Rosie, that's a very astute conclusion. I like to hope the same thing. ^f^ That if Jack had lived, at the very least they would have had an opportunity to really talk, now that a lot of what they had been hiding was out in the open ... :(
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But I still think that face shows anger, depression, but unknowing too. If he had just decided to let Ennis go for good and never see him again, I think he would look more tearfull and less angry. (Sorry - I just couldn't help myself ^f^)
Rosie, his face here is the very essence of ambivalence. I don't think he himself could have sorted out everythin he was feeling at that moment, not without much time to ponder.
Reminds me a little of the turmoil on Ennis's face when they had to leave Brokeback early that first summer. Another bookend in a film full of bookends.
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A lot of moviegoers hate any form of ambivalence, especially close to the end.
But I think it is one of the strong points of BBM.
Jack's and Ennis's intentions still retain an ambivalence up to the very end. It is wonderful to acknowledge that we can't pin them down entirely, especially in this last confrontation.
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I like the ambivalence. :) And it wouldn't work for a lot of mediocre films, but for a masterpiece, it gives us depths to explore.
I guess the question of whether or not Jack was ready to quit on Ennis is almost as big (maybe bigger) a question in everyone's minds as was the question of the manner of Jack's death. Tire explosion or tire iron? All the ambiguous moments in BBM allows us to fashion the story somewhat to our own satisfactions and beliefs. It's why we love it! <^(
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I like the ambivalence. :) And it wouldn't work for a lot of mediocre films, but for a masterpiece, it gives us depths to explore.
I guess the question of whether or not Jack was ready to quit on Ennis is almost as big (maybe bigger) a question in everyone's minds as was the question of the manner of Jack's death. Tire explosion or tire iron? All the ambiguous moments in BBM allows us to fashion the story somewhat to our own satisfactions and beliefs. It's why we love it! <^(
Yes, I am amazed of how much of the end scenes get tied together by just sheer ambiguity. The nature of Jack's death is tied to the question of whether he gave up on Ennis or not. The double meanings in final confrontation scene tie closely with Ennis's own ambiguity (did he withraw more into himself or did he start opening up to others?) in the scenes after Jack's death.
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A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.
:(
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There's wasn't a neat and tidy, predictable love, so it wouln't be convincing if it were to end neatly in some sort of cliche.
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A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.
:(
I do think this is why some people hated BBM, because they thought the ending too open-ended, no?
I do remember that as a kid, I liked to be handed the ending of a movie on a silver platter. Good that that's over.
Jack's final intentions and his end may be ambiguous. But I don't think his love for Ennis is ever in doubt.
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A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.
:(
I do think this is why some people hated BBM, because they thought the ending too open-ended, no?
I do remember that as a kid, I liked to be handed the ending of a movie on a silver platter. Good that that's over.
Jack's final intentions and his end may be ambiguous. But I don't think his love for Ennis is ever in doubt.
No......at least not for me it wasn't open-ended. I have been hanging out at a couple of chat rooms and I have only found 3 people that liked the movie. About 90+% say the movie was too slow and unrealistic. But what do they know, all they are interested in is sex. You can not imagine the difference between this Forum and those chat rooms.
A director is a visual story teller. I don't think a director who left a story so full of ambiguities as to not be able to ascertain what the story is would ever reach the height of perfection that Ang Lee has.
No, there is no doubt as to Jack's love for Ennis. <^(
The complaint about slowness we certainly have heard a lot about. In a sense, I undersatand why some people are put off by this. But I must say that I tend to like movies that many people find slow. With Ang Lee, I do think it is a strength rather than a liability.
As for being unrealistic, it is hard to argue with them. If they associate realism with explicit sex, then that is their loss.
A director is a visual story teller. I don't think a director who left a story so full of ambiguities as to not be able to ascertain what the story is would ever reach the height of perfection that Ang Lee has.
I agree.
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A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.
:(
I do think this is why some people hated BBM, because they thought the ending too open-ended, no?
I do remember that as a kid, I liked to be handed the ending of a movie on a silver platter. Good that that's over.
Jack's final intentions and his end may be ambiguous. But I don't think his love for Ennis is ever in doubt.
No......at least not for me it wasn't open-ended. I have been hanging out at a couple of chat rooms and I have only found 3 people that liked the movie. About 90+% say the movie was too slow and unrealistic. But what do they know, all they are interested in is sex. You can not imagine the difference between this Forum and those chat rooms.
A director is a visual story teller. I don't think a director who left a story so full of ambiguities as to not be able to ascertain what the story is would ever reach the height of perfection that Ang Lee has. Oh sure, movies sometimes have ambiguities in them, but I don't think this one has as many as is claimed on this forum.
Ang Lee was trying to make a general audience movie with a daring plot, two men who fall in love. I don't see as many ambiguities as I see subtleties. Subtleties designed to not offend the sensibilities of a straight audience. Ang Lee took 3 big chances in this movie. I think that he was successful.
No, there is no doubt as to Jack's love for Ennis. <^(
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The complaint about slowness we certainly have heard a lot about. In a sense, I undersatand why some people are put off by this. But I must say that I tend to like movies that many people find slow. With Ang Lee, I do think it is a strength rather than a liability.
It is only my opinion, but I believe they think it is slow only because they are use to Playstation and other machines like it and these damn "action" games. Everything is now shoot em up kill em, now. Also, cell phones. What ever happened to the day when you thought of telling your friend something and had to remember it until you got home and to a telephone? Now, it is instant, hurry up, pick up the cell and tell them. Don't matter you are in church or a movie theater or wherever. I want it and want it now. Those people would definitely find BBM slow. As you said, their loss.
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Oh sure, movies sometimes have ambiguities in them, but I don't think this one has as many as is claimed on this forum.
Perhaps. It depends on how much one sees and how much one doesn't see. The story is quite compact and in part a bit laconic. Some people feel more of a need to fill in some of the lacunae. Others are content to take each one in stride. Ang Lee himself probably felt the need to fill in some of this, as is attested by some of the deleted scenes. His great gift was to pare this down and leave certain things unsaid.
No, there is no doubt as to Jack's love for Ennis. <^(
Yes, I have no doubt about it.
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The complaint about slowness we certainly have heard a lot about. In a sense, I undersatand why some people are put off by this. But I must say that I tend to like movies that many people find slow. With Ang Lee, I do think it is a strength rather than a liability.
It is only my opinion, but I believe they think it is slow only because they are use to Playstation and other machines like it and these damn "action" games. Everything is now shoot em up kill em, now. Also, cell phones. What ever happened to the day when you thought of telling your friend something and had to remember it until you got home and to a telephone? Now, it is instant, hurry up, pick up the cell and tell them. Don't matter you are in church or a movie theater or wherever. I want it and want it now. Those people would definitely find BBM slow. As you said, their loss.
Yes. Not to generalize, but I do think along similar lines. It is also reflected in the very common ideal here in the US of watching movies that don't make you think. For many, movies are a way of escape -- something that would afford them a few hours of fun and visual delight. Stories seem to interest them less as opposed to effects. A pity.
Sorry. I am already a bit OOT.
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Perhaps. It depends on how much one sees and how much one doesn't see. The story is quite compact and in part a bit laconic. Some people feel more of a need to fill in some of the lacunae. Others are content to take each one in stride. Ang Lee himself probably felt the need to fill in some of this, as is attested by some of the deleted scenes. His great gift was to pare this down and leave certain things unsaid.
I believe that. And where he left things unsaid it was because they were said in other parts of the film or were so obvious as to not need explanation.
As for deleted scenes, there are many reasons to delete a scene. Take the scene where Jack does something to expose himself to the garage mechanics. Ang Lee said he took it out because it disrupted the story and he couldn't find a place to put it where it wouldn't do that. However, he did manage to put in the part that was the most improtant, Jack's death. (I still can't look at that scene after 200+ time)
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I agree with the points aabout this being a society where things are expected to be fast if not instant and any sort of delay is intolerable. It's rather childish - "I want it now".This sounds like OT but it's not. I remember beong appalled by an American TV ad years ago - it was for Mountain Dew and had someone stretching out, grabbiing a can and saying"Gimme a Dew." Same sort of thing.
As far as ambiguity is concerned, it's another aspect of the same thing. Children, as tpe notes, like stories with neat endings; we all do sometimes. But life is messy, vague, unsatisfactory, complicated, uncertain - that's why this film is so interesting and believable - it's like life.
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......As far as ambiguity is concerned, it's another aspect of the same thing. Children, as tpe notes, like stories with neat endings; we all do sometimes. But life is messy, vague, unsatisfactory, complicated, uncertain - that's why this film is so interesting and believable - it's like life.
That it is. Well said. :)
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......As far as ambiguity is concerned, it's another aspect of the same thing. Children, as tpe notes, like stories with neat endings; we all do sometimes. But life is messy, vague, unsatisfactory, complicated, uncertain - that's why this film is so interesting and believable - it's like life.
That it is. Well said. :)
I agree...that's why I LOVE this movie
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And this in something else I've concluded. After Jack talks to Ennis about the thing with the "foreman's wife", and then he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"- I think after that he probably thought or wanted to say "that is why I look for consolation with other men, alcohol, anything to help me stand the pain of being away from you, but at the end of the day the pain is still there".
You dig it? ;)
I do thjink this is true. "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" was a cry from the heart. It was also a sort of confession. I did think Ennis understood, but remained speechless.
I definately agree with this. He is confessing and almost pleading to Ennis.
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And this in something else I've concluded. After Jack talks to Ennis about the thing with the "foreman's wife", and then he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"- I think after that he probably thought or wanted to say "that is why I look for consolation with other men, alcohol, anything to help me stand the pain of being away from you, but at the end of the day the pain is still there".
You dig it? ;)
I do thjink this is true. "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" was a cry from the heart. It was also a sort of confession. I did think Ennis understood, but remained speechless.
I definately agree with this. He is confessing and almost pleading to Ennis.
So true.
I think this was the start of Jack trying to see if the reltionship could move on. Showing he couldn't stand it the way it was for much longer, and trying to let Ennis know that. He was trying to say "I need you with me to feel whole, I love you", he was trying to say ''I want to be with you all the time". Without using those words. Seeing how the ground lay, if Ennis was prepared to discuss things out in the open. He wasn't. He needed to be pushed harder than that. Jack stopped pretending that what he felt didn't affect his whole life. I find this scene really hard to watch. The pain of Jack is palpable. :\'(
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And he had, ironically, spent so long pretending that he could stand it - he turned up in conformity with Ennis's "rules" - meet a few times a year, way the hell out in the middle of nowhere - in a relationship that never moved on, and when he makes an emotional confession Ennis more or les ignores it and certainly gives no appearance of wanting to respond by changing anything, and doesn'r seem concerned that Jack is involved, as he is, with another women. When Jack repsonds honestly to the Mexico accusation, it's as if he's mentally prepared himself for total revelation, which may be the only way to get through to ennis how much he's suffered over theyears. Of course it may also do what he's been pussyfooting around all these years, frighten Ennis off completely, but maybe he's decided to take that risk or is so angry and miserble that he doesn;t even think of it. either way this is the crisis point they've avoided every time they've met from the reunion on, even from their first parting, and it's Jack who provokes it - ennis presumably would have gone on for ever as they were. So all this shows Jack's desperation and the corrosive effect of constant rejections, uncetainties, absence and all the rest.
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I did originally think that Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" was more of an avowal of love rather than a sense of pleading. Reading all these posts, I am moved and agree that it was Jack pleading with Ennis -- telling him in an inderect way that, for all the infidelities, it is Ennis who makes or breaks him.
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It's both, isn't it, like so many other lines in this movie, carrying layers of meaning in a few words. You can read it as Jack trying to put pressure on Ennis, in the way one does when involved with someone who won't commit. "I love you," you say, intending to put them in the position of having to say, "And I love you too." Often doesn't work, as it doesn't here.
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Ennis would have gone on forever, but Jack has just shown him that he can't. Because Jack can't stand it anymore. Jack has just told him some truths he'd rather not hear. And Ennis has realised that he can't stand it anymore either. Who's to say that Ennis is not saying he can't stand hurting Jack anymore, as much as he is saying he can't stand the lies, half life he's living etc., after months of thinking about it, and he would have had the months up until November, he might have thought that it would be less painful to him and Jack to admit the truth rather than just pack it in. Maybe he thought he'd given enough of his life over to what was expected of him, and now it was time to think of him and Jack. I know coming out to his daughters would be hard and when I doubt the happy ending it is always because of that. Having his daughters know. It's not because he can't admit to himself he loves another man, I think he's always known that, he hasn't wanted to admit it, but he's always known it.
The big difference this time I think is that before Jack has always been frightened of confronting Ennis because Ennis may end it altoghther. This time it is completely the opposite and for the first time they both know that if Ennis doesn't confront the issue it may well be JACK that ends it. That is a lot for Ennis to think about. It removes the security blanket of always having Jack having to comply to his rules. The game has changed and Ennis knows it. They both know it.
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Interesting thoughts Rosie! And I always thought Ennis seemed desperate to get things back to an even footing, as he pleaded with Jack to 'lighten up' on him and offered to try to get the cabin again. Hmm, more to think about.
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Ennis resists change and hates having to do anything other than what he's always done. He also knows Jack relies on their meetings and feels guilty about cancleling the August one. So he has to psych himself up to say he can't make it, and is afraid Jack will explode, though I don't think he figured out how violent the explosion would be. He finds out things about Jack that he's much rather not know, but Jackalso finds out things about him. They've ripped away so much of the covering of evasions and half-truths,acknowledged the presence of the elephant in the corner if you like, and they can't go back. The stunning thing is the apparent finality of Jack's words - "I did once" - and "We couid have had a good life" - past tense then pluperfect subjunctive. Ennis may not know the terms but he must get the implications. I thonk at that point at least he thought Jacj had given up on him. Later, after a long absence, evidently with no contact from Jack, he tries again, possibly hoping to start off the same pattern again, but Jack isn't there to respond, so he never knows ( and neither do we) what the reply would have been. It isn't until he finds the shirts that he gets what he thinks ( and the romantics among us believe) is the answer - that Jack may have begun to see their relationship differently, but he never stopped loving him.
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Ennis resists change and hates having to do anything other than what he's always done. He also knows Jack relies on their meetings and feels guilty about cancleling the August one. So he has to psych himself up to say he can't make it, and is afraid Jack will explode, though I don't think he figured out how violent the explosion would be. He finds out things about Jack that he's much rather not know, but Jackalso finds out things about him. They've ripped away so much of the covering of evasions and half-truths,acknowledged the presence of the elephant in the corner if you like, and they can't go back. The stunning thing is the apparent finality of Jack's words - "I did once" - and "We couid have had a good life" - past tense then pluperfect subjunctive. Ennis may not know the terms but he must get the implications. I thonk at that point at least he thought Jacj had given up on him. Later, after a long absence, evidently with no contact from Jack, he tries again, possibly hoping to start off the same pattern again, but Jack isn't there to respond, so he never knows ( and neither do we) what the reply would have been. It isn't until he finds the shirts that he gets what he thinks ( and the romantics among us believe) is the answer - that Jack may have begun to see their relationship differently, but he never stopped loving him.
I don't know how many more posts like this I can read....it's just too sad to contemplate Jack having given up on Ennis.
I do strongly believe that there's no "thinks" about it in your last sentence though - Jack never stopped loving Ennis, even if he had decided to walk away from their difficult relationship. If he'd stopped loving, he'd have got rid of the shirts because he wouldn't have wanted a reminder...he didn't because he still needed to have at least that, still wanted to have some part of Ennis to hold.
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An old quote I read on this forum a while back always comes to mind when I think of those shirts. I think it was from Edgar, if it was not I apologize to whoever it was.... the quote was...
No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
I've never forgot that one, and I don't think I ever can. I think of it every time I see those shirts.......now we're ALL :\'( :\'( :\'(
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No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
He has shed enough blood.
I washes away his sins.
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No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears.
This is too sad but so true. I could imagine everytime they parted from their fishing trips, Jack would go up to Lightning Flat to hold the shirts and cry his heart out, all alone.
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No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears.
This is too sad but so true. I could imagine everytime they parted from their fishing trips, Jack would go up to Lightning Flat to hold the shirts and cry his heart out, all alone.
Oh my word I never thought of that. How incredibly sad to think about.
:\'(
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No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears.
This is too sad but so true. I could imagine everytime they parted from their fishing trips, Jack would go up to Lightning Flat to hold the shirts and cry his heart out, all alone.
Oh my word I never thought of that. How incredibly sad to think about.
:\'(
That is really sad, thats what I had Jack do in this story that i was writing. I knew how lonely he must have felt, its terrible that he died do 'unused' if you know what i mean
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This discussion about the shirts is so sad....but I totally agree that Jack would have taken them out every time he went up to Lightning Flat and held them, probably in tears. One thing though - maybe as well as making him sad because it was the only part of Ennis he could hold whenever he wanted to (when he was at his folks anyway), the shirts gave him some comfort too, because they were a constant reminder of Brokeback and what they'd shared up there. Sort of like a reassurance, whenever he had doubts about their relationship.
In addition, if you believe that Jack had some understanding of why Ennis was angry and upset at leaving Brokeback early, then the shirts would remind him of how Ennis felt about him. In the short story, at least, he knew after the reunion how Ennis had felt about their parting, so I'm sure he gained comfort from seeing the shirts and knowing that the blood on them had been shed because of the pain of parting.
I'll stop rambling now.
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This discussion about the shirts is so sad....but I totally agree that Jack would have taken them out every time he went up to Lightning Flat and held them, probably in tears. One thing though - maybe as well as making him sad because it was the only part of Ennis he could hold whenever he wanted to (when he was at his folks anyway), the shirts gave him some comfort too, because they were a constant reminder of Brokeback and what they'd shared up there. Sort of like a reassurance, whenever he had doubts about their relationship.
In addition, if you believe that Jack had some understanding of why Ennis was angry and upset at leaving Brokeback early, then the shirts would remind him of how Ennis felt about him. In the short story, at least, he knew after the reunion how Ennis had felt about their parting, so I'm sure he gained comfort from seeing the shirts and knowing that the blood on them had been shed because of the pain of parting.I'll stop rambling now.
Wow! That wasn't rambling.....that's an excellent point and a comforting thought. :t) NoReins.
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This discussion about the shirts is so sad....but I totally agree that Jack would have taken them out every time he went up to Lightning Flat and held them, probably in tears. One thing though - maybe as well as making him sad because it was the only part of Ennis he could hold whenever he wanted to (when he was at his folks anyway), the shirts gave him some comfort too, because they were a constant reminder of Brokeback and what they'd shared up there. Sort of like a reassurance, whenever he had doubts about their relationship.
In addition, if you believe that Jack had some understanding of why Ennis was angry and upset at leaving Brokeback early, then the shirts would remind him of how Ennis felt about him. In the short story, at least, he knew after the reunion how Ennis had felt about their parting, so I'm sure he gained comfort from seeing the shirts and knowing that the blood on them had been shed because of the pain of parting.I'll stop rambling now.
Wow! That wasn't rambling.....that's an excellent point and a comforting thought. :t) NoReins.
I agree with Rosie. Thanks, NoReins.
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Does "giving up" necessarily mean giving up forever?
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It may just mean giving up on some things - giving up on the idea of Ennis ever agreeing to live with him doesn't mean the same as giving up on Ennis or on loving him. You can adjust to the knowledge that someone is never going to do/be what you want without its necessarily changing your feelings for him/her.
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Does "giving up" necessarily mean giving up forever?
I like to think not, tpe. Everyone can feel momentarily defeated. But there is nothing to stop one from getting back up with renewed determination, if the incentive is strong enough.
What could be a stronger incentive than a once-in-a-lifetime love? :)
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I like to think not, tpe. Everyone can feel momentarily defeated. But there is nothing to stop one from getting back up with renewed determination, if the incentive is strong enough.
What could be a stronger incentive than a once-in-a-lifetime love? :)
I hope so, MississaugaRed. I hope so. I began to harbor other thoughts this morning, thinking about this...
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While Enn is was fairly set before he met Jack, i see Jack as much less formed in some ways. During the course of the story he grew up, and growing up means realising what you're not going to achieve. Jack I think realises that to love with Ennis and share that sweet life is a fantasy not capable of achievement, but love can adapt and change and mutate, and his seems strong enough to do that.
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While Enn is was fairly set before he met Jack, i see Jack as much less formed in some ways. During the course of the story he grew up, and growing up means realising what you're not going to achieve. Jack I think realises that to love with Ennis and share that sweet life is a fantasy not capable of achievement, but love can adapt and change and mutate, and his seems strong enough to do that.
I feel the same way most of the time. Sometimes, the thought of "forever" does sink in and I begin to be afraid...
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I like to think not, tpe. Everyone can feel momentarily defeated. But there is nothing to stop one from getting back up with renewed determination, if the incentive is strong enough.
What could be a stronger incentive than a once-in-a-lifetime love? :)
I hope so, MississaugaRed. I hope so. I began to harbor other thoughts this morning, thinking about this...
That's understandable, tpe. :^^) Hard not to harbour those feelings, in the face of all that emotion, the outcome forever undecided. :(
Do you think maybe that's what Jack would have gone through? Moments of doubt when feeling low ... but hope still there quiet, ready to shut the door on those doubts before they can come in to stay permanent? I like to think Jack would find have found a way past the doubts again ...
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I like to think not, tpe. Everyone can feel momentarily defeated. But there is nothing to stop one from getting back up with renewed determination, if the incentive is strong enough.
What could be a stronger incentive than a once-in-a-lifetime love? :)
I hope so, MississaugaRed. I hope so. I began to harbor other thoughts this morning, thinking about this...
That's understandable, tpe. :^^) Hard not to harbour those feelings, in the face of all that emotion, the outcome forever undecided. :(
Do you think maybe that's what Jack would have gone through? Moments of doubt when feeling low ... but hope still there quiet, ready to shut the door on those doubts before they can come in to stay permanent? I like to think Jack would find have found a way past the doubts again ...
Yes, I do feel that the cloud of doubt hung heavily on Jack during the final years. I do think that Ennis also began to doubt where his love for Jack was leading him. Not so sure about this, but I guess, Jack's death must have wiped all of Ennis's doubt away -- as we know that death wiped Jack away...
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And he could "know" that Jack would never now give up on him, leaving him free to mourn a lost love but also to know that he could go on loving someone who would never endanger him, never make demands, neve change.r
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I like to think not, tpe. Everyone can feel momentarily defeated. But there is nothing to stop one from getting back up with renewed determination, if the incentive is strong enough.
What could be a stronger incentive than a once-in-a-lifetime love? :)
I hope so, MississaugaRed. I hope so. I began to harbor other thoughts this morning, thinking about this...
That's understandable, tpe. :^^) Hard not to harbour those feelings, in the face of all that emotion, the outcome forever undecided. :(
Do you think maybe that's what Jack would have gone through? Moments of doubt when feeling low ... but hope still there quiet, ready to shut the door on those doubts before they can come in to stay permanent? I like to think Jack would find have found a way past the doubts again ...
Yes, I do feel that the cloud of doubt hung heavily on Jack during the final years. I do think that Ennis also began to doubt where his love for Jack was leading him. Not so sure about this, but I guess, Jack's death must have wiped all of Ennis's doubt away -- as we know that death wiped Jack away...
tpe, ^f^
You know that I think that Jack did have doubts about where this reltionship and his life were going and was beginning to think about changing the relationship or ending it before that last meeting. But at that last meeting do you still think that Jack gave up on his relationship with Ennis for Ennis' sake? Not gave up on his love for Ennis but gave up the relationship? Do you ever think that maybe Jack might have thought that Ennis saying that he couldn't stand it, and knowing that Ennis now knew that Jack couldn't stand it either might have given Jack pause to see what was going to happen? Not think this all the time but just sometimes - or never? I just wondered what you meant by "I began to harbor other thoughts this morning" I just wondered if you ever had different interpretations depending on your mood like I do. Sorry if I'm being too nosey, but you know how I just love to discuss this question.. :)
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I sometimes see/read the thing differently depending on my mood, or even depending on which part of my past I'm thinking about - you tend to see people in the light of your own experiences and see yourself as closer to Ennis or Jack - i see myself as more like Jack, and I've been in a relationship where the Ennis half was never going to change so that I had to come to terms with that. In the end I gave up on the relationship, because it wasn;t worth the pain it was causing me, and because the othr person involved didn;t thin k it was wirth the misert it caused either. So I see Jack as giving up to some extent, but not giving up, not being able to give up, loving Ennis. You can't just switch off love, specially after many years when it's become part of who you are and in a sense when you and the other person have become a part of each other.
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tpe, ^f^
You know that I think that Jack did have doubts about where this reltionship and his life were going and was beginning to think about changing the relationship or ending it before that last meeting. But at that last meeting do you still think that Jack gave up on his relationship with Ennis for Ennis' sake? Not gave up on his love for Ennis but gave up the relationship? Do you ever think that maybe Jack might have thought that Ennis saying that he couldn't stand it, and knowing that Ennis now knew that Jack couldn't stand it either might have given Jack pause to see what was going to happen? Not think this all the time but just sometimes - or never? I just wondered what you meant by "I began to harbor other thoughts this morning" I just wondered if you ever had different interpretations depending on your mood like I do. Sorry if I'm being too nosey, but you know how I just love to discuss this question.. :)
Hello Rosie. I do think that when Ennis said "I can't stand it anymore", Jack must have taken it a s a cue to let go, even if he still loves Ennis. This was how I've grown to see this in the past couple of months.
I was reading Jake's comments again thias morning, and although it is open to interpretation to a degree, I wondered what he had meant when he said that Ennis's love was more faithful. "Faithful" can imply forever or to the death. The fact that he thought Jack was lacking in faithfulness could have meant a number of things. He could have been referring to Jack's exploring other relationships. He could have meant that Jack lost hope, the way we see it. Thinking about this though, I had thought that what Jack lacked was CONSISTENCY, and not faithfulness.
When Jack gave up on Ennis, I would want to think that even the loss of hope for a sweet life was perhaps temporary. I don't know. One can be inconsistent, but keep coming back to a fixed point -- i.e., something you may wander away from but still come back to again and again. So long as Ennis lived, could Jack forget him and his love for him? A fixed point implies a recurrence. It does not necessarily imply consistency.
Do you see what I was thinking? Perhaps it is too abstract... I hope not.
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Jack can't be said to be faithful, even from the beginning. If you regard him as committed to Ennis after Brokeback, then he was unfaithful the moment he married Lureen, even when he approached Jimbo though nothing came of it, but in terms of intention he was mentally unfaithful to Ennis. If you consider his relationship with lureen as primary, then he was unfaithful to her with Ennis, then with the Mexican, then later with Randall. I think it takes a great deal of Jesuitical casuistry to see Jack as faithful in any way.
Ennis was in a sense doggedly faithful to his word - he was engaged to Alma, he married her and stuck with it till she ditched him. He was un faithful to her with Jack, or looked at from theother angle to Jack with her, if you think that he was sexually inexperienced till he met Jack and was committed to him from then on. He showed not the remotest interst in any other man and didn't stay with Cassie, so Ennis in that sense was more faithful to Jack than Jack was to him. Once divorced, he stuck with Jack although he wouldn;t live with him.
I think it is entirely poissible to see Jack as consistently inconsistent - he has other intended or actual sexual partners and despite wanting Ennis at least considers giving him up and leaving Lureen for Randall, whom he may or may not love. He's deriven by his emotions or his desires in a way Ennis isn't, and therefore I think more capavle of giving up in the end than Ennis is - Ennis is the one who after all that's said between them sends the postcard about the November meeting.
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Jack can't be said to be faithful, even from the beginning. If you regard him as committed to Ennis after Brokeback, then he was unfaithful the moment he married Lureen, even when he approached Jimbo though nothing came of it, but in terms of intention he was mentally unfaithful to Ennis. If you consider his relationship with lureen as primary, then he was unfaithful to her with Ennis, then with the Mexican, then later with Randall. I think it takes a great deal of Jesuitical casuistry to see Jack as faithful in any way.
Ennis was in a sense doggedly faithful to his word - he was engaged to Alma, he married her and stuck with it till she ditched him. He was un faithful to her with Jack, or looked at from theother angle to Jack with her, if you think that he was sexually inexperienced till he met Jack and was committed to him from then on. He showed not the remotest interst in any other man and didn't stay with Cassie, so Ennis in that sense was more faithful to Jack than Jack was to him. Once divorced, he stuck with Jack although he wouldn;t live with him.
I think it is entirely poissible to see Jack as consistently inconsistent - he has other intended or actual sexual partners and despite wanting Ennis at least considers giving him up and leaving Lureen for Randall, whom he may or may not love. He's deriven by his emotions or his desires in a way Ennis isn't, and therefore I think more capavle of giving up in the end than Ennis is - Ennis is the one who after all that's said between them sends the postcard about the November meeting.
Ah welshwitch, you are probably right here. It must be Jesuitical casuistry at work when I was thinking this.
Still I wonder if Jack had lost all hope entirely -- i.e., forever. "Forever" is something that is hard to find in this world. What if Jack had lived and things did not work out between him and Randall, would he have gone back to that hope for a life with Ennis?
This becomes all pure speculation. How many angels can dance at a point of a needle? Perhaps it does not matter in the long run. BBM is powerful because of things not resolved.
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Still I wonder if Jack had lost all hope entirely -- i.e., forever. "Forever" is something that is hard to find in this world. What if Jack had lived and things did not work out between him and Randall, would he have gone back to that hope for a life with Ennis?
This becomes all pure speculation. How many angels can dance at a point of a needle? Perhaps it does not matter in the long run. BBM is powerful because of things not resolved.
There, I think we have it. But we do enjoy the speculation. :) Thanks tpe and welshwitch, more to think about! :) Is enjoy the right word? Oh I don't know....It's late, I'm tired. :)
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I guess he was just like any real person - inconsistent. In reality I think at the back of his mind and however unrealistic it was, he still had a little hope that one day everythng would change and he and Ennis would be together. Illusory, maybe, but we all need illusions or life would become intolerable.
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Still I wonder if Jack had lost all hope entirely -- i.e., forever. "Forever" is something that is hard to find in this world. What if Jack had lived and things did not work out between him and Randall, would he have gone back to that hope for a life with Ennis?
This becomes all pure speculation. How many angels can dance at a point of a needle? Perhaps it does not matter in the long run. BBM is powerful because of things not resolved.
There, I think we have it. But we do enjoy the speculation. :) Thanks tpe and welshwitch, more to think about! :) Is enjoy the right word? Oh I don't know....It's late, I'm tired. :)
The speculative bursts come every now and then. A lot of times, I think it is hair-splitting, especially when it comes to the question that is the topic of this thread. But I do think the fascination is rooted in the "what-if" possibilities.
Jack giving up on Ennis would have been open-ended anyway. He was resolved to start a new life with Randall. We really don't know if that would have been final, had he lived, of course.
Letting Jack die is, in a sense, an easy solution to this quandry of Ennis and Jack. But that easy way out does not tie things neatly. That is why we continue to ask these questions.
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Letting Jack die is, in a sense, an easy solution to this quandry of Ennis and Jack. But that easy way out does not tie things neatly. That is why we continue to ask these questions.
*o) Easy but the most painful. Why does he have to die?? :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
I think with all powerful movies, they always make you think "what if". They make us analyze part of their content and many of us come to different conclusions. To me, I think Jack did really try to quit Ennis just to protect Ennis. He will always love Ennis no matter what and setting him free was the most loving thing he could do for him. The "dozy embrace" flashback was what made me think that Jack was trying to quit Ennis.
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Jack can't be said to be faithful, even from the beginning. If you regard him as committed to Ennis after Brokeback, then he was unfaithful the moment he married Lureen, even when he approached Jimbo though nothing came of it, but in terms of intention he was mentally unfaithful to Ennis. If you consider his relationship with lureen as primary, then he was unfaithful to her with Ennis, then with the Mexican, then later with Randall. I think it takes a great deal of Jesuitical casuistry to see Jack as faithful in any way.
This whole take on Jack & Ennis and their faithfulness (or lack thereof!) to each other is very interesting, welshwitch ... as we have said in past discussions ... can opened ... worms everywhere! ;) This line of thought, in regard to Jack's giving up on Ennis and his view on their relationship also gives it a different twist (if you'll excuse the use of the word ::) ) then I've thought of it before. ^f^
I would think most people can agree that faithfulness is a reasonable demand in a relationship, and the breaking of that faithfulness can only be understood or forgiven when the circumstances are beyond the ordinary. It's been mentioned before that for some of us it bothers us less, for instance, that Jack and Ennis both cheated on their wives than it does that they may have cheated on each other. Different set of circumstances. Sorry if that may be OT ... :s)
Personally ... I don't think it would have been required for either man to be faithful ... in physical terms ... to each other during those four years after Brokeback. Ennis was going off to get married. Jack knew this. He may have hoped they'd meet again, but there was no commitment between them at that time. So ... stay faithful to what? Ennis went about living his own life without making promises to Jack or asking them in return. Jack had no reason not to do the same.
After they reunited ... I think then it would be a different story. Each knew the other would have to maintain a physical relationship with their wives ... for forms sake if not to stave off their needs during the time apart. But each likely knew, too, without having to speak of it, that aside from their wives, they would be with each other, only.
From Jack's perspective, he was willing to endure the limitations to the true side of his nature because he always, always kept hope (at least I believe he did) that one day he and Ennis could be together permanently. Ennis likely was thinking that as long as he kept to himself or had something else to hide behind, he could allow himself those few weeks with Jack, but probably couldn't envision anything more.
The first time we KNOW that Jack was unfaithful to Ennis was after the divorce fiasco. I truely believe he hadn't been with another man before that, or he wouldn't have looked so ill and scared in Mexico. His dreams were crushed, he had been reining in his desires all those years because he believed Ennis would one day really committ to him.
Now he knows, it's not going to happen. So I guess the question in part would be ... was their implied commitment to each other broken at the time of the divorce, when in Jack's mind the playing field had changed once again? He wasn't on the sidelines temporarily, as he might have convinced himself, until they could work out a way to be together steady ... He was always going to be sitting on the bench.
So Jack goes to Mexico. And has Randell. And whoever else in between.
But Ennis has Cassie. So he's cheating on Jack as well.
Regardless of what might be in Ennis's mind, if he's sleeping with someone he's not married to, while he and Jack are having an affair, then he's no less unfaithful than Jack was. Jack appears understanding about Ennis's involvement with Cassie, but doesn't mean it hurts him any less than finding out about Jack's other men hurt Ennis. Men or women, if we're holding Jack to a level of faithfulness, than Ennis must be held to the same account, don't you think?
From what you've all been discussing here has me wondering not so much if Jack had given up on Ennis by that last time up at the lake .. but if maybe he hadn't already mostly given up, at least on his dreams of a sweet life with Ennis, from the moment he was turned away after the divorce ... Couldn't ever give up on the love, but maybe had no choice but to give up a lot of his dreams, seeing them slip away bit by bit those last seven or eight years. :-\\ If he wasn't holding on to Ennis and the dream of Ennis as tightly after the divorce, then maybe he felt the hold Ennis had on him was loosened too, enough that it made the other men possible?? :-\\
Anyway ... once again you've all given me so much more to think about in the whole Jack and Ennis dynamic! :) It just never seems to stop! And I know I'm obsessively Jack-centric, so my views may be a bit biased! ~)
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Letting Jack die is, in a sense, an easy solution to this quandry of Ennis and Jack. But that easy way out does not tie things neatly. That is why we continue to ask these questions.
*o) Easy but the most painful. Why does he have to die?? :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
I think with all powerful movies, they always make you think "what if". They make us analyze part of their content and many of us come to different conclusions. To me, I think Jack did really try to quit Ennis just to protect Ennis. He will always love Ennis no matter what and setting him free was the most loving thing he could do for him. The "dozy embrace" flashback was what made me think that Jack was trying to quit Ennis.
Thanks JT for saying this. I like it to be so. I really do.
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From what you've all been discussing here has me wondering not so much if Jack had given up on Ennis by that last time up at the lake .. but if maybe he hadn't already mostly given up, at least on his dreams of a sweet life with Ennis, from the moment he was turned away after the divorce ... Couldn't ever give up on the love, but maybe had no choice but to give up a lot of his dreams, seeing them slip away bit by bit those last seven or eight years. :-\\ If he wasn't holding on to Ennis and the dream of Ennis as tightly after the divorce, then maybe he felt the hold Ennis had on him was loosened too, enough that it made the other men possible?? :-\\
THis is very perceptive of you, MississaugaRed. I do think the worst thiongs in life come up to us like this. They seldom come in one swift clean merciful stroke. They are usually agonizing journeys of the heart. They come with a profound sense of helplessness. It becomes like "fate."
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Jack can't be said to be faithful, even from the beginning. If you regard him as committed to Ennis after Brokeback, then he was unfaithful the moment he married Lureen, even when he approached Jimbo though nothing came of it, but in terms of intention he was mentally unfaithful to Ennis. If you consider his relationship with lureen as primary, then he was unfaithful to her with Ennis, then with the Mexican, then later with Randall. I think it takes a great deal of Jesuitical casuistry to see Jack as faithful in any way.
This whole take on Jack & Ennis and their faithfulness (or lack thereof!) to each other is very interesting, welshwitch ... as we have said in past discussions ... can opened ... worms everywhere! ;) This line of thought, in regard to Jack's giving up on Ennis and his view on their relationship also gives it a different twist (if you'll excuse the use of the word ::) ) then I've thought of it before. ^f^
I would think most people can agree that faithfulness is a reasonable demand in a relationship, and the breaking of that faithfulness can only be understood or forgiven when the circumstances are beyond the ordinary. It's been mentioned before that for some of us it bothers us less, for instance, that Jack and Ennis both cheated on their wives than it does that they may have cheated on each other. Different set of circumstances. Sorry if that may be OT ... :s)
Personally ... I don't think it would have been required for either man to be faithful ... in physical terms ... to each other during those four years after Brokeback. Ennis was going off to get married. Jack knew this. He may have hoped they'd meet again, but there was no commitment between them at that time. So ... stay faithful to what? Ennis went about living his own life without making promises to Jack or asking them in return. Jack had no reason not to do the same.
After they reunited ... I think then it would be a different story. Each knew the other would have to maintain a physical relationship with their wives ... for forms sake if not to stave off their needs during the time apart. But each likely knew, too, without having to speak of it, that aside from their wives, they would be with each other, only.
From Jack's perspective, he was willing to endure the limitations to the true side of his nature because he always, always kept hope (at least I believe he did) that one day he and Ennis could be together permanently. Ennis likely was thinking that as long as he kept to himself or had something else to hide behind, he could allow himself those few weeks with Jack, but probably couldn't envision anything more.
The first time we KNOW that Jack was unfaithful to Ennis was after the divorce fiasco. I truely believe he hadn't been with another man before that, or he wouldn't have looked so ill and scared in Mexico. His dreams were crushed, he had been reining in his desires all those years because he believed Ennis would one day really committ to him.
Now he knows, it's not going to happen. So I guess the question in part would be ... was their implied commitment to each other broken at the time of the divorce, when in Jack's mind the playing field had changed once again? He wasn't on the sidelines temporarily, as he might have convinced himself, until they could work out a way to be together steady ... He was always going to be sitting on the bench.
So Jack goes to Mexico. And has Randell. And whoever else in between.
But Ennis has Cassie. So he's cheating on Jack as well.
Regardless of what might be in Ennis's mind, if he's sleeping with someone he's not married to, while he and Jack are having an affair, then he's no less unfaithful than Jack was. Jack appears understanding about Ennis's involvement with Cassie, but doesn't mean it hurts him any less than finding out about Jack's other men hurt Ennis. Men or women, if we're holding Jack to a level of faithfulness, than Ennis must be held to the same account, don't you think?
From what you've all been discussing here has me wondering not so much if Jack had given up on Ennis by that last time up at the lake .. but if maybe he hadn't already mostly given up, at least on his dreams of a sweet life with Ennis, from the moment he was turned away after the divorce ... Couldn't ever give up on the love, but maybe had no choice but to give up a lot of his dreams, seeing them slip away bit by bit those last seven or eight years. :-\\ If he wasn't holding on to Ennis and the dream of Ennis as tightly after the divorce, then maybe he felt the hold Ennis had on him was loosened too, enough that it made the other men possible?? :-\\
Anyway ... once again you've all given me so much more to think about in the whole Jack and Ennis dynamic! :) It just never seems to stop! And I know I'm obsessively Jack-centric, so my views may be a bit biased! ~)
Well said! I agree with on this. Not biased, but true.
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I don't think that Jack completly gave up Ennis.
I don't think he could.
He could try to make it with Randall, but the longing for Ennis would probably never go away. :\'(
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When you have loved someone for a long time, although under all sorts of constraints and with all kind of problems, they become a part of you. Jack and Ennis are a part of each other; I don't think either ever stopped loving the other, but I do think Jack gave up believing that ennis would ever change and that there would ever be a future when they were permanently together.
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Would Ennis have changed had he realized that Jack had finally settled with another man? Or would he have treated Jack the same way he treated Cassie? I doubt the latter. Nonetheless, ad Jack lived and had he started to share a life with Randall, I seriously doubt that Ennis would have done nothing.
Would he have tried to kill Jack, as he had threatened in the fight by the lake? Ennis's reaction, had Jack lived, intrigues me greatly...
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From what you've all been discussing here has me wondering not so much if Jack had given up on Ennis by that last time up at the lake .. but if maybe he hadn't already mostly given up, at least on his dreams of a sweet life with Ennis, from the moment he was turned away after the divorce ... Couldn't ever give up on the love, but maybe had no choice but to give up a lot of his dreams, seeing them slip away bit by bit those last seven or eight years. :-\\ If he wasn't holding on to Ennis and the dream of Ennis as tightly after the divorce, then maybe he felt the hold Ennis had on him was loosened too, enough that it made the other men possible?? :-\\
THis is very perceptive of you, MississaugaRed. I do think the worst thiongs in life come up to us like this. They seldom come in one swift clean merciful stroke. They are usually agonizing journeys of the heart. They come with a profound sense of helplessness. It becomes like "fate."
That's what I think- that after the divorce scene his dreams really started to unravel. It was then that he knew without a doubt that it was Ennis holding Ennis back. I don't believe that he would ever give Ennis up;the dream of the sweet life? Yes. Lately I've been seeing the flashback as Jack remembering/chasing the ghost of Brokeback past- Ennis was freely loving him then; that's the Ennis he was chasing. In a way it is selfish to want them to stay locked in those "seperate and difficult lives" but to me, they are so much a part of each other that it'd be like losing a vital organ if they were to seperate permanently. Do I want to think that Jack loved Ennis enough to let him go for Ennis' sake? Yes and for his own sake as well, but that's the cold, rational head speaking. The heart won't allow me to believe that they could ever quit each other.
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You can live a separate life, move on, in the jargon, but love doesn't disappear because it's not openly manifested. Each of them is there inside the other,too closely interwoven ever to be disentangled.
"Those who one another keep alive ne're parted be,"
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Love is really funny sometimes it is our happiness and at the same time our doom…
Let’s say that in this case for both of them was the same, the fact that Jack waited for nearly 20 years for Ennis is one of the most beautiful ways to express his love. He lived on Ennis pace, waiting him to confirm their encounters and even though they were less and less possible thanks to Ennis jobs, he didn’t complained (not until the End at least), but why? Why he complained? Was because he stops loving Ennis? Wrong! It was the opposite! He couldn’t take it any longer he waited for a long time, and he was dying to have Ennis on his side, it came to the time for him that he didn’t need a week Ennis; he needed a 24/7 a 365 days Ennis! Is this called giving up? No, it is called rights, Jack had all the right to ask this, he knew Ennis loved him and he loved him too, but Ennis was too scared to accept it. So I’ve read on other places that he let him go, could be not forever that’s for sure, but at least for a time in which Ennis could realize his own feelings (I think, forgive me if I’m wrong) as we see on his last Encounter with Cassie Ennis is different somehow his last meeting with Jack affected him (and I think it was a good change) but Jack could have tried to start a new life, but love is a doom sometimes and no matter how much you tried to take it from your heart it’s there still untouched, frozen until you resign to accept the truth, True Love can’t be forgotten, there’s one song I like that says that true love is eternal and the others are just to try to forget which never happens. Jack and Ennis are clear on this no matter how much they tried at the beginning to forget it never went through.
I said it once, when my mother died my father never married again, he tried to get into other relationships, but none of them worked. When I was older enough to ask (19) I asked him why he never got married again, he told me that he couldn’t quit my mother, she was her real and only love and no matter how many other women he date my mother was the one in her heart. Now I recall that memory and I compare it to Jack and Ennis and conclude with this let him go maybe…Give up on him? Never, Nunca, jamais.
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"Those who one another keep alive ne're parted be,"
Beautiful . . .
:\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Valandil, WW and Missisauga,
I think you are right, somebody you have loved the way that Jack and Ennis loved each other, never can go out of your life. This kind of love stays with you forever. But does that have to mean that no other love is possible? For some people, it seems to be so. For others not. I think Ennis is the kind of person, for whom no other love would ever be possible and he is so jealous that he would rather see his lover dead than with another man (only men seem to matter for both of them. Having affairs with women seems to be accepted by both as a kind of camouflage action). To tell the truth: I have always abhorred the idea of the crime passionel, killing somebody out of jealousy. And I think that being faithful can mean lots of things. So I do not agree with some of the posts here. Being faithful doesn't have to mean not sleeping with anybody else. It can mean that you remain committed to somebody and to your idea of love. Jack did that for decades. And when the point came, where he realised that their love was hurting them both, he did the only faithful thing he could: He let go, for the good of them both. Of course, that doesn't mean that he would ever have forgotten Ennis, not even that he would never have seen him again. But he held fast to his idea of what their love should have been, to what fulfillment it might have offered, if only.... So in my eyes he was faithful.
Love,
monicita
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That's what I think- that after the divorce scene his dreams really started to unravel. It was then that he knew without a doubt that it was Ennis holding Ennis back. I don't believe that he would ever give Ennis up;the dream of the sweet life? Yes. Lately I've been seeing the flashback as Jack remembering/chasing the ghost of Brokeback past- Ennis was freely loving him then; that's the Ennis he was chasing. In a way it is selfish to want them to stay locked in those "seperate and difficult lives" but to me, they are so much a part of each other that it'd be like losing a vital organ if they were to seperate permanently. Do I want to think that Jack loved Ennis enough to let him go for Ennis' sake? Yes and for his own sake as well, but that's the cold, rational head speaking. The heart won't allow me to believe that they could ever quit each other.
Ennis seemed to have become more and more withdrawn over the yesrs -- Jack said as much that the get-togethers became less and less frequent over the years. Did he think that Ennis was giving up on him? Could this have been part of the reason why he lost hope in the end?
He lost hope, but not love.
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You can live a separate life, move on, in the jargon, but love doesn't disappear because it's not openly manifested. Each of them is there inside the other,too closely interwoven ever to be disentangled.
"Those who one another keep alive ne're parted be,"
That we one jot of former love retain.
Now at the last gasp of Love's latest breath,
When, his pulse failing, Passion speechless lies,
When Faith is kneeling by his bed of death,
And Innocence is closing up his eyes,
- Now if thou would'st, when all have given him over,
From death to life thou might'st him yet recover.
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Love is really funny sometimes it is our happiness and at the same time our doom…
Let’s say that in this case for both of them was the same, the fact that Jack waited for nearly 20 years for Ennis is one of the most beautiful ways to express his love. He lived on Ennis pace, waiting him to confirm their encounters and even though they were less and less possible thanks to Ennis jobs, he didn’t complained (not until the End at least), but why? Why he complained? Was because he stops loving Ennis? Wrong! It was the opposite! He couldn’t take it any longer he waited for a long time, and he was dying to have Ennis on his side, it came to the time for him that he didn’t need a week Ennis; he needed a 24/7 a 365 days Ennis! Is this called giving up? No, it is called rights, Jack had all the right to ask this, he knew Ennis loved him and he loved him too, but Ennis was too scared to accept it. So I’ve read on other places that he let him go, could be not forever that’s for sure, but at least for a time in which Ennis could realize his own feelings (I think, forgive me if I’m wrong) as we see on his last Encounter with Cassie Ennis is different somehow his last meeting with Jack affected him (and I think it was a good change) but Jack could have tried to start a new life, but love is a doom sometimes and no matter how much you tried to take it from your heart it’s there still untouched, frozen until you resign to accept the truth, True Love can’t be forgotten, there’s one song I like that says that true love is eternal and the others are just to try to forget which never happens. Jack and Ennis are clear on this no matter how much they tried at the beginning to forget it never went through.
I said it once, when my mother died my father never married again, he tried to get into other relationships, but none of them worked. When I was older enough to ask (19) I asked him why he never got married again, he told me that he couldn’t quit my mother, she was her real and only love and no matter how many other women he date my mother was the one in her heart. Now I recall that memory and I compare it to Jack and Ennis and conclude with this let him go maybe…Give up on him? Never, Nunca, jamais.
Thank you for sharing this. And yes, true love is eternal.
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You can live a separate life, move on, in the jargon, but love doesn't disappear because it's not openly manifested. Each of them is there inside the other,too closely interwoven ever to be disentangled.
"Those who one another keep alive ne're parted be,"
That we one jot of former love retain.
Now at the last gasp of Love's latest breath,
When, his pulse failing, Passion speechless lies,
When Faith is kneeling by his bed of death,
And Innocence is closing up his eyes,
- Now if thou would'st, when all have given him over,
From death to life thou might'st him yet recover.
Beautiful :\'( :\'( :\'(
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For answering to this question I was surprised to start thinking about their last day on BBM.Jack was not worried or upset to leave as he didn't need BBM to love Ennis,he knows his feeling about him, BBM or not.His desire to joke,his thoughts to have another summer together the next year.The Ennis'shirt "theft" was made after the punch,yes,but I don't think it means that he thought it was unlikely that they met again, if it was we haven't had the "Twist, you guys wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs babysittin' the sheep while you stem the rose" scene with Aguirre.It's just one of the many things that shows us his love for Ennis.
I guess the anger he throw away in the "I wish I knew how to quit you.” scene begins when Ennis said "I guess I'll see you around, huh?" He looks so surprised by Ennis been so distant.I wasn't surprised by the four years without trying to known where Ennis was and He wouldn't have looked for him If he wasn't so in love with Ennis,do you remember?"he had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own".He didn't looked for Ennis only for sex. I could go on listing the Jack's disappointmens for many times asking "Why he didn't give up on Ennis before?" their meeting after Ennis' divorce...another bad surprise for Jack,what a let-down for him! How to react!...well,we know how he reacted.I guess he didn't give up on Ennis in the end, but he wouldn't have tried to see him anymore.He'd have waited for an Ennis move.
It's easy for me to understand Jack feelings at this point, but, as Cassie said,I don't get you Ennis Del Mar...Yes,I understand Ennis feelings on the BBM last day, I can also understand the punch and the cold goodbye, especially after his breaking down ...he couldn't go back on BBM the next year,he just get married with Alma and he takes "about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't’t a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while.” He couldn't knew how to find Jack, so what could he make?.But I can't understand his "inertia"...I can understand his fears but how could they be stronger than his love for Jack? If Jack were not died, what would he have made? I don't know how to answer to this one.
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I think Jack's wish to see Ennis remained but i don't know if he believed it would be a reality - if only he had got the damned postcard from Ennis before he died.
When it cuts to the flashback scene Jack's face is so ful of sleepy happiness - Ennis is riding away but he knows he will come back to him. Cut so starkly against this is present day Jack - i think he has lost the knowledge of Ennis's return by that point, looking so broken and distraught.
If i had one wish it would be that Jack had read that last postcard - even if AP still saw it fit to kill hin off, he would have known Ennis still felt a bond with him...
I'm rambling again but this thread kills me... :\'(
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I think there can come a point where you try to tell yourself you've given up on someone, just to save yourself any more misery, but however successfully you SAY this, deep down you know it isn't true, and if the faintest hope re-appears, you find that for you nothing has changed. Jane Austen said in "Persuasion" that it was women who claimed the privlege of loving longest when hope was gone, but Jack is an example of a man who went on loving long after logically he should have given up.
But love isn't logical or, for that matter, controllable.
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I think Jack's wish to see Ennis remained but i don't know if he believed it would be a reality - if only he had got the damned postcard from Ennis before he died.
When it cuts to the flashback scene Jack's face is so ful of sleepy happiness - Ennis is riding away but he knows he will come back to him. Cut so starkly against this is present day Jack - i think he has lost the knowledge of Ennis's return by that point, looking so broken and distraught.
If i had one wish it would be that Jack had read that last postcard - even if AP still saw it fit to kill hin off, he would have known Ennis still felt a bond with him...
I'm rambling again but this thread kills me... :\'(
A kind of fear shot through me when I saw this topic resurrect.
I think the fact that he never saw the last postcard adds poigniancy to his death. It is a lonely fate: to lose hope.
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I think there can come a point where you try to tell yourself you've given up on someone, just to save yourself any more misery, but however successfully you SAY this, deep down you know it isn't true, and if the faintest hope re-appears, you find that for you nothing has changed. Jane Austen said in "Persuasion" that it was women who claimed the privlege of loving longest when hope was gone, but Jack is an example of a man who went on loving long after logically he should have given up.
But love isn't logical or, for that matter, controllable.
Does anyone ever lose all hope? Indeed, I sometimes wonder about this. Perhaps in the case of suicide. But then again, in some cultures, suicide can be an affirmation of hope.
Perhaps deep down, Jack still harbored hope. It would surface at any hint from Ennis. I can't see Jack not reaching out to Ennis if an opening presented itself.
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Hi,
I believe Jack did had enough, in the film and in the short story, Jack most important memory was when they were by the fire, it was pure, like the author states in her story "artless and sexless", he had love for Ennis in the purest form. But how could he fight against Ennis lack of willingness to be with him.
In the movie the Ranch foreman in Texas was putting the 'blocks" on Jack, he was willing, where Ennis wasn't. Even towards the end of the film Jack's father mentioned to Ennis that he was coming back with a someone else, I think Jack was "trying" to move on. That final showdown with Jack and Ennis, I think was the last attempt for Jack to plead with Ennis to be with him. Jack's death left it open for our interpretation.
This is mine, for what its worth.
Manhattangirl
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Hi,
I believe Jack did had enough, in the film and in the short story, Jack most important memory was when they were by the fire, it was pure, like the author states in her story "artless and sexless", he had love for Ennis in the purest form. But how could he fight against Ennis lack of willingness to be with him.
In the movie the Ranch foreman in Texas was putting the 'blocks" on Jack, he was willing, where Ennis wasn't. Even towards the end of the film Jack's father mentioned to Ennis that he was coming back with a someone else, I think Jack was "trying" to move on. That final showdown with Jack and Ennis, I think was the last attempt for Jack to plead with Ennis to be with him. Jack's death left it open for our interpretation.
This is mine, for what its worth.
Manhattangirl
This is what makes Jack larger than life in the end. For all the ambiguity that surrounds his final plans and death, we see nonetheless, that it locks Ennis's fate forever.
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Exactly how open was Jack about his relationships with his parents and quitting Ennis for Randall? They knew of Ennis AND Randall. Maybe he talked to his father about them in the context of "just friends" who were willing to help him whip the ranch into shape. I don't know. We do know from the Thanksgiving scene with LD, that Jack was capable of putting his foot down if he needed to. Maybe this is how he dealt with his father about bringing one of these guys up. This maturer, older Jack may have more sway with the old man than we think. I wish we saw more interaction between the two of them but I did'nt hear Twist Sr. say to Ennis "not on your life" or "it'll be a cold day in hell" or any other term indicating his refusal to allow it. Maybe I'm wrong but he seemed more upset with Jack's inability to carry through on his promises to help him out , though his contempt for his son's lifestyle was obvious.... Just thinkin out loud. Thanks
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It occurs to me that his father's continued contempt for him and what he saw as Jack's broken promises may have made Jack think again about Ennis. If his father despised him for making promises that he never kept, Jack saw Ennis as the cause of his doing that and Randall as the means of fulfilling them - if you think in terms of simply helping on the ranch I doubt whether John Twist would care who Jack brought as long as he was competent - maybe he was beginning to think that Ennis would never change and would never allow him either to turn up with the help he'd promised or start a life of their own together, but Randall would.
I also wonder how John Twist would have coped if he'd had to face Jack with helper in tow, keeping his promises so that his father could no longer laugh at him - if I read him right he'd probably have found fault with Randall for having learned about farming in an academic context rather than getting down and dirty on a farm.
As Jack said, there was no pleasing his father, but giving up on Jack and persuading Randall to be a substitute would at least have taken him aback and shown Jack in a different light.
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Exactly how open was Jack about his relationships with his parents and quitting Ennis for Randall? They knew of Ennis AND Randall. Maybe he talked to his father about them in the context of "just friends" who were willing to help him whip the ranch into shape. I don't know. We do know from the Thanksgiving scene with LD, that Jack was capable of putting his foot down if he needed to. Maybe this is how he dealt with his father about bringing one of these guys up. This maturer, older Jack may have more sway with the old man than we think. I wish we saw more interaction between the two of them but I did'nt hear Twist Sr. say to Ennis "not on your life" or "it'll be a cold day in hell" or any other term indicating his refusal to allow it. Maybe I'm wrong but he seemed more upset with Jack's inability to carry through on his promises to help him out , though his contempt for his son's lifestyle was obvious.... Just thinkin out loud. Thanks
I suspect something similar. After all, marriage with Lureen had provided Jack with distance and financial independence. The dynamic between father and don must have changed over the years, but I don't think there was ever a genuine understanding between the two. The best description I could give is that of an uneasy truce. Still, I suspect that Jack being Jack, he loved his father, in spite of everything.
Jack was never a person to give up so easily. If he persisted in reaching out to Ennis (at least up until the very end), I am sure he persisted in reaching out to his father.
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It occurs to me that his father's continued contempt for him and what he saw as Jack's broken promises may have made Jack think again about Ennis. If his father despised him for making promises that he never kept, Jack saw Ennis as the cause of his doing that and Randall as the means of fulfilling them - if you think in terms of simply helping on the ranch I doubt whether John Twist would care who Jack brought as long as he was competent - maybe he was beginning to think that Ennis would never change and would never allow him either to turn up with the help he'd promised or start a life of their own together, but Randall would.
I also wonder how John Twist would have coped if he'd had to face Jack with helper in tow, keeping his promises so that his father could no longer laugh at him - if I read him right he'd probably have found fault with Randall for having learned about farming in an academic context rather than getting down and dirty on a farm.
As Jack said, there was no pleasing his father, but giving up on Jack and persuading Randall to be a substitute would at least have taken him aback and shown Jack in a different light.
I suspect that in John Twist's mind, Jack must have given up on Ennis -- at least given up on bringing him back to LF. I suspect that this was his part of the reason he mentioned Jack bringing someone else back to the ranch -- as a kind of reproach to Ennis, and perhaps even as an act tinged with some malice. He may have been disappointed with Jack for not fulfilling his intentions, but I still think that he said what he said in order to take a jab at Ennis. Essentially, he told Ennis: my son has given up on you.
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Maybe Jack should have considered divorcing and finding a place of his own whereever he wanted. This way he could have whoever he wanted come to visit him. I can see him with his own ranch. Ennis would have seen him trying and maybe come around sooner and stayed. Maybe independence along with communication was the key to snagging Ennis.I think Ennis repected self-sufficientness.
Jack had options.
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Maybe Jack should have considered divorcing and finding a place of his own whereever he wanted. This way he could have whoever he wanted come to visit him. I can see him with his own ranch. Ennis would have seen him trying and maybe come around sooner and stayed. Maybe independence along with communication was the key to snagging Ennis.I think Ennis repected self-sufficientness.
Jack had options.
I am sure Jack knew that moving back to LF would put himself closer to Ennis. I suspect that this was part consolation, and part wish. We really couldn't tell how his relationship with Randall would have developed if they were close to where Ennis lived. Perhaps it was a perverse hope that remained in Jack -- that by moving back to LF with Randall, he can rouse Ennis to action.
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Jack had Lureen, Ennis, Randall, his dad, his son, and his in-laws to deal with. Not to mention a closed minded society, and his job. It must have been overwhelming for him. Maybe taking a step back taking a deep breath ,and a little time to himself to asess his options would not have been a bad idea.I can't imagine the pressure on him.No wonder he spased out on Ennis in the last meeting.
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Jack had Lureen, Ennis, Randall, his dad, his son, and his in-laws to deal with. Not to mention a closed minded society, and his job. It must have been overwhelming for him. Maybe taking a step back taking a deep breath ,and a little time to himself to asess his options would not have been a bad idea.I can't imagine the pressure on him.No wonder he spased out on Ennis in the last meeting.
The point when Jack's hope was wearing thin -- it is at that point that I love him the most.
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I am sure Jack knew that moving back to LF would put himself closer to Ennis. I suspect that this was part consolation, and part wish. We really couldn't tell how his relationship with Randall would have developed if they were close to where Ennis lived. Perhaps it was a perverse hope that remained in Jack -- that by moving back to LF with Randall, he can rouse Ennis to action.
This is a unique thought, tpe. I like this idea. I agree that Jack would do anything possible to get Ennis into his life on a more permanent, visible plane. This little bit of suspected cunning fits right in there with his original plan of them living together. Jealousy often makes a person get moving.
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This is a unique thought, tpe. I like this idea. I agree that Jack would do anything possible to get Ennis into his life on a more permanent, visible plane. This little bit of suspected cunning fits right in there with his original plan of them living together. Jealousy often makes a person get moving.
lamusica, you expressed my thoughts exactly here.
Jealousy can be a powerful weapon. After all, didn't Ennis threaten to kill Jack if he ever found out of "asll them things"?
When one is at the end of one's hope, one will do anything, even if it means inciting the beloved to an uncontrollable and dangerous rage. Perhaps Jack considered this as a last resort...
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In my opinion, no, no way did Jack ditch Ennis. NO QUIT, as it was called during a legendary argument on another thread which got so learned, so vehement and just so...intense that Annie herself popped in to gaze in amazement roflmao.
I am constitutionally incapable of believing Jack twist could leave Ennis Delmar. He may have made 'arrangements' and all, yet if he hadn't been killed he would have been at Pine Creek in November. The Gods of Brokeback speaketh, NO QUIT is writ in tongues of flame on rockeths of granite! <g>
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In my opinion, no, no way did Jack ditch Ennis. NO QUIT, as it was called during a legendary argument on another thread which got so learned, so vehement and just so...intense that Annie herself popped in to gaze in amazement roflmao.
I am constitutionally incapable of believing Jack twist could leave Ennis Delmar. He may have made 'arrangements' and all, yet if he hadn't been killed he would have been at Pine Creek in November. The Gods of Brokeback speaketh, NO QUIT is writ in tongues of flame on rockeths of granite! <g>
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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I would certainly want to think that this was indeed the case.
But I would hazard to say that even if Jack did not show up in November, I think it would not have spelled the end. Ennis would have showed up, and realizing that Jack was not coming, I suspect that he would not sit quietly and forget about it. That would have spurred Ennis to search for Jack, and who know what could have happened had they confronted each other at LF...
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Hi guys,
I think it's fundamental to the story that you don't believe Jack every truly gave up on Ennis.
I think this is one of the reasons why the deleted scene with Jack, Randall and the mechanics didn't make it to the film - both to create ambiguity over Jack's death, and also to keep Jack's infidelity towards Ennis more unclear.
In either event, Jack had been at his parents in the spring, but left the shirts where they'd hung silently for 20 years. This means, that Jack maintained the symbol of their togetherness forever. To me, this means that despite Mexico, Randall or whatever else, that Jack's heart remained faithful to Ennis only.
The other bit that I like about the scene, is Jack's father. Much is said about his mother, but mainly the feeling towards the father is hostile. He's definitely an interesting character. There is homophobia here, unquestionably. But there is also a level of understanding that most people miss. The fact that he knows about Ennis and the other ranch neighbour is important. Why would you tell your homophobic father that you were leaving your wife and bringing another guy to come to 'lick the ranch back into shape'. If the father was that homophobic then he'd said 'no way'. When he recounts how Jack would say that he'd bring 'Ennis Del Mar' to his parents home, you get a sense when the father says Ennis name as if he's mimicing / mocking the dream like way Jack would talk about his lover.
Also, the father's reluctance to not let his son's ashes go to brokeback mountain also has a double meaning. On the one hand, he explains that Jack is going in the family plot suggests his disappointment, and even disgust that his son left his life with the heads in the clouds, and wanted something that went againt the wishes of the other people in his life. Also - and for me - this is the crucial bit....burying him in the family plot is important - it is Jack's father showing, that inspite of what his son was, what he'd done, and what he thought of him, he was still family. There's a sense of ownership and pride when you declare someone family.
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Hi guys,
I think it's fundamental to the story that you don't believe Jack every truly gave up on Ennis.
I think this is one of the reasons why the deleted scene with Jack, Randall and the mechanics didn't make it to the film - both to create ambiguity over Jack's death, and also to keep Jack's infidelity towards Ennis more unclear.
In either event, Jack had been at his parents in the spring, but left the shirts where they'd hung silently for 20 years. This means, that Jack maintained the symbol of their togetherness forever. To me, this means that despite Mexico, Randall or whatever else, that Jack's heart remained faithful to Ennis only.
The other bit that I like about the scene, is Jack's father. Much is said about his mother, but mainly the feeling towards the father is hostile. He's definitely an interesting character. There is homophobia here, unquestionably. But there is also a level of understanding that most people miss. The fact that he knows about Ennis and the other ranch neighbour is important. Why would you tell your homophobic father that you were leaving your wife and bringing another guy to come to 'lick the ranch back into shape'. If the father was that homophobic then he'd said 'no way'. When he recounts how Jack would say that he'd bring 'Ennis Del Mar' to his parents home, you get a sense when the father says Ennis name as if he's mimicing / mocking the dream like way Jack would talk about his lover.
Also, the father's reluctance to not let his son's ashes go to brokeback mountain also has a double meaning. On the one hand, he explains that Jack is going in the family plot suggests his disappointment, and even disgust that his son left his life with the heads in the clouds, and wanted something that went againt the wishes of the other people in his life. Also - and for me - this is the crucial bit....burying him in the family plot is important - it is Jack's father showing, that inspite of what his son was, what he'd done, and what he thought of him, he was still family. There's a sense of ownership and pride when you declare someone family.
I must admit that a vague thought like this had crossed my mind also, but in fact it has been "overlayed" by the stoic impression of old Mr. Twist and by the empathy (and sympathy) we all develop for Jack's mother ....
Interesting point, though. :s)
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@brokebacksoul
Glad to know someone else thought the same. I don't always think that things should be taken so black and white (e.g. Jack's Pa = Bad, Jack's Ma = Good).
Jack's Pa spoke more, and, most of what he said was accurate - Jack did think he was too good to be buried in the family plot which was a symbol of why he left home and moved to Texas etc. And most of Jack's ideas did come to nothing and were 'wild notions'.
The mother just looks understanding, but says little. Although she does direct Ennis upstairs...
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@thunderwolf
Very insightful. Jack's father kinda reminds me of my own father who is homophobic but makes an exception for me...as long as I don't talk about it too much.
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@thunderwolf
Very insightful. Jack's father kinda reminds me of my own father who is homophobic but makes an exception for me...as long as I don't talk about it too much.
Glad to hear Romeo164 that you have a level of understanding with your father :0)
I think a lot of people are gradually accepting of homosexual love, and it only remains the love that dare not speak its name (or whatever the quote is!) for straight people, who might be quite accepting of it, but don't necessarily want to talk about it.
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Hi guys,
I think it's fundamental to the story that you don't believe Jack every truly gave up on Ennis.
I think this is one of the reasons why the deleted scene with Jack, Randall and the mechanics didn't make it to the film - both to create ambiguity over Jack's death, and also to keep Jack's infidelity towards Ennis more unclear.
In either event, Jack had been at his parents in the spring, but left the shirts where they'd hung silently for 20 years. This means, that Jack maintained the symbol of their togetherness forever. To me, this means that despite Mexico, Randall or whatever else, that Jack's heart remained faithful to Ennis only.
The other bit that I like about the scene, is Jack's father. Much is said about his mother, but mainly the feeling towards the father is hostile. He's definitely an interesting character. There is homophobia here, unquestionably. But there is also a level of understanding that most people miss. The fact that he knows about Ennis and the other ranch neighbour is important. Why would you tell your homophobic father that you were leaving your wife and bringing another guy to come to 'lick the ranch back into shape'. If the father was that homophobic then he'd said 'no way'. When he recounts how Jack would say that he'd bring 'Ennis Del Mar' to his parents home, you get a sense when the father says Ennis name as if he's mimicing / mocking the dream like way Jack would talk about his lover.
Also, the father's reluctance to not let his son's ashes go to brokeback mountain also has a double meaning. On the one hand, he explains that Jack is going in the family plot suggests his disappointment, and even disgust that his son left his life with the heads in the clouds, and wanted something that went againt the wishes of the other people in his life. Also - and for me - this is the crucial bit....burying him in the family plot is important - it is Jack's father showing, that inspite of what his son was, what he'd done, and what he thought of him, he was still family. There's a sense of ownership and pride when you declare someone family.
You bring up some very good points about Jack's father, that I haven't given much thought before.
As for the question of the thread, it depends on what people mean when they say Jack had "given up on Ennis". I think that Jack had pretty much given up on the idea that Ennis would ever get over his fears and agree to build a life with him (which was already implied in his answer "I did once"). And he might have told himself that it would be best for him to move on, to try and build this life with someone else, because he knew he would not be able to do it with Ennis, but I don't believe that he's really "moved on". I don't think that Jack was able to get over his love for Ennis or to put Ennis behind him, ever. It does sound like he was making plans with Randall, otherwise he wouldn't tell his folks about it, but even if he'd gone through with that plan, I think Ennis would have remained the love of his life.
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Hey Keren_b - although I really think you are probably right in your assessment, I just can't accept it!
For Ennis his love of Jack was rooted in Brokeback Mountain - that one place where they'd be so happy and together and he thought that all they could do is recreate glimpses of that special time together. Ennis never thought that they could top what they had in BBM.
For Jack, I just think his love of Ennis was just love of Ennis. Jack believed that their time on BBM, and their elicit weeks together post BBM was just a taster of what life could be like if they were always together.
To this extent, I don't think he'd ever truly give up on Ennis, or his belief that at some point they could have a life together. Or, even if he had 'given up' he hadn't quit 'giving up' if that makes sense? It probably doesn't.
Even long post the divorce, Jack tentatively brings up the topic that Ennis should move to Texas. I'd hate to think that he had given up on a life together, or it's not a love that endures for 20 years :(
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"Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds." I don't think Jack ever gave up on Ennis; love doesn't work like that, if it's the real thing. He may have tried to convince himself that he had accepted the fact that they would never have that sweet life, but I don't think he succeeded. The least hint of an iota of a smidgeon of change in Ennis and he'd have been filled with hope all over again. His was the kind of love that " bears it out even to the edge of doom".
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Wow! That's what I love about this place. Years later and new members still bring new insights to an old movie that we all love.
Welcome to the fold, thunderwolf.
The relationship between Jack and his Pa may not be black and white, but I think it's typical of the homophobia of rural American patriarchs. Jack was a disappointment, pure and simple. The only good thing in Jack, as far as his Pa was concerned, was his marrying Lureen and had a son. If it weren't for that, he probably wouldn't be welcome back to the family farm, much less the family plot. And you can bet the old man insisted on burying Jack there, not out of love nor pride, but spite for his son's love of another man. "No way my son is going to get buried up there in Brokeback where he did all them abominationable things with that other queer!" Having Jack buried in the family plot was also his way of having a connection with Bobby, his grandson, though I doubt that Lurren would drive all that way to visit his grave.
Jack gave up on Ennis at the Final Confrontation. He still loved Ennis. But he knew Ennis would never leave his kids, never move to Texas or anywhere. As long as Ennis was staying at Riverton with his daughters, he would never live with Jack or do anything other than going out into the middle of nowhere a few times a year. Jack was stuck with Lureen, too, in Texas, and no way he could divorce her and move up to Wyoming. Not in them days. That's the reason for all the drinking and trips to Mexico. Yes, come November and a postcard from Ennis, Randoll or not, he'd still redline fourteen hours each way to spend a few days with Ennis. He ain't quitting his Brokeback, no way, no how.
As far as Randoll was concerned, he and Jack couldn't be anything other than just having a bit of fun. He was too much like Jack. Married into money. No way he would jeopardize his livelihood, his veterinarian practice just to play house with a ranch hand in a broken down farm in Wyoming. All the talk Jack's Pa was repeating just what Jack fantasized on his own, like having Ennis up there. None of it was gonna happen. Jack was nothing more than a booty call to him. Poor Jack, though, always wanting love, blue birds singing next to his whiskey spring.
That's the tragedy if it all. Ennis and Jack, both yearning for love. Both found it in each other. Yet, both were denied because they were born a few decades too early, in the wrong states, in the wrong time.
Here's to all the Ennis and Jack out there. 🍻 :cr)
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Wow! That's what I love about this place. Years later and new members still bring new insights to an old movie that we all love.
Welcome to the fold, thunderwolf.
The relationship between Jack and his Pa may not be black and white, but I think it's typical of the homophobia of rural American patriarchs. Jack was a disappointment, pure and simple. The only good thing in Jack, as far as his Pa was concerned, was his marrying Lureen and had a son. If it weren't for that, he probably wouldn't be welcome back to the family farm, much less the family plot. And you can bet the old man insisted on burying Jack there, not out of love nor pride, but spite for his son's love of another man. "No way my son is going to get buried up there in Brokeback where he did all them abominationable things with that other queer!" Having Jack buried in the family plot was also his way of having a connection with Bobby, his grandson, though I doubt that Lurren would drive all that way to visit his grave.
Jack gave up on Ennis at the Final Confrontation. He still loved Ennis. But he knew Ennis would never leave his kids, never move to Texas or anywhere. As long as Ennis was staying at Riverton with his daughters, he would never live with Jack or do anything other than going out into the middle of nowhere a few times a year. Jack was stuck with Lureen, too, in Texas, and no way he could divorce her and move up to Wyoming. Not in them days. That's the reason for all the drinking and trips to Mexico. Yes, come November and a postcard from Ennis, Randoll or not, he'd still redline fourteen hours each way to spend a few days with Ennis. He ain't quitting his Brokeback, no way, no how.
As far as Randoll was concerned, he and Jack couldn't be anything other than just having a bit of fun. He was too much like Jack. Married into money. No way he would jeopardize his livelihood, his veterinarian practice just to play house with a ranch hand in a broken down farm in Wyoming. All the talk Jack's Pa was repeating just what Jack fantasized on his own, like having Ennis up there. None of it was gonna happen. Jack was nothing more than a booty call to him. Poor Jack, though, always wanting love, blue birds singing next to his whiskey spring.
That's the tragedy if it all. Ennis and Jack, both yearning for love. Both found it in each other. Yet, both were denied because they were born a few decades too early, in the wrong states, in the wrong time.
Here's to all the Ennis and Jack out there. 🍻 :cr)
You nailed it right there. That's what kind of relationship Jack and his father had. Jack was a failure to his father, and the father was ashamed of his gay son. While Jack's father may have taken his homophobia to the level that Ennis' father would have (I firmly believe Ennis' father would have killed Ennis if he'd been alive and knew about the relationship), Twist Sr. took it to the extent that he resented his son, and would have cut all ties with him had it not been for the fact that Jack married a woman and had a child. Another reason was Jack's mother's love for her son, it would be difficult to keep her from seeing her son. Otherwise, Jack and his father would have never seen or spoken to each other again. As for whether or not Jack had given up on Ennis after all those years of frustration, I don't think so.
I think he loved Ennis so much that he would still try no matter how much it hurt him over and over again. I don't think he died doubting Ennis' love for him, I think he died doubting that his dream would ever come true (Jack being the idealist had held onto it all those years) so it was the first time that he realized it might not happen. Jack might have said more or did more to make Ennis realize, but he was always to fearful of Ennis walking away. This goes all the way back to that first summer on Brokeback Mountain when Ennis says "I ain't queer", and Jack replies "me neither". Jack knew he was gay and was comfortable in his own skin, but said what Ennis wanted to hear because he wanted to keep his relationship with Ennis. Jack had treaded so lightly all those years, and after all that time, was quite frankly, sick and tired of it. He wanted to talk about it, to put it out there in the open, he wanted to say all that he couldn't say.
The last thing is what Jack's father said to Ennis about the "ranch neighbor" (obviously Randall). I think he just said it to hurt Ennis. Twist Sr, a homophobic patriarch finally comes face to face with that "queer" his son's been with for all those years, so you can imagine how someone with his mindset felt at that moment. He wanted to cut Ennis with his words, and he did for a moment. Until Ennis finds the shirt and realizes that there was only one true love in Jack's life.
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I think he loved Ennis so much that he would still try no matter how much it hurt him over and over again. I don't think he died doubting Ennis' love for him, I think he died doubting that his dream would ever come true (Jack being the idealist had held onto it all those years) so it was the first time that he realized it might not happen. Jack might have said more or did more to make Ennis realize, but he was always to fearful of Ennis walking away. This goes all the way back to that first summer on Brokeback Mountain when Ennis says "I ain't queer", and Jack replies "me neither". Jack knew he was gay and was comfortable in his own skin, but said what Ennis wanted to hear because he wanted to keep his relationship with Ennis. Jack had treaded so lightly all those years, and after all that time, was quite frankly, sick and tired of it. He wanted to talk about it, to put it out there in the open, he wanted to say all that he couldn't say.
This is the way I've always felt about it as well. After all those years of holding it in, treading carefully so as not to spook Ennis into possibly breaking it off, Jack just needed to get it out. And as the original story tells us they torqued things back to where they'd always been and the movie shows this by Ennis sending the postcard to Jack for a November meeting, their relationship hadn't changed but Jack had faced some uncomfortable truths about how it would always be and while I don't believe he'd given up on Ennis, perhaps he felt a little more weary about it all and had lost that hope for a life together. Would he have walked away now that he realized that would never happen? I just can't bring myself to believe that he would. And if it were earlier in their lives, one could argue that walking away and looking for a meaningful relationship elsewhere might be better for him but by the time of the confrontation, Ennis was in Jack's heart irrevocably and I think asking him to walk away would be like asking him to stop breathing. Nope, Jack was in it for as long as they could ride it, just like Ennis. Whatever the difficulties or disappointments.
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I agree that Jack wouldn't have given up altogether. He could never do that, what they had was too powerful a love. He loved Ennis so much that he never could just stop seeing him as long as he was alive. And remember they were going to meet again in November, (but then Jack died in August, I guess?)...Jack was upset that he had to wait that long to see him again, but he would have come along on the trip in November just like he always did. Maybe Ennis was finally going to come around...if only Jack hadn't died. Maybe Jack was going to take him to Lightning Flat the next trip, then he would have seen the shirts...I wish he had taken him to Lightning Flat some time in all those years damn it. What Ennis had to live with the rest of his life must have been unbearable...the regret of what could have been, all that time wasted when they could have been together all those years. That's a very big burden to carry around for...who knows how long Ennis lived after Jack.
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Well, I think Jack learned to live with the Ennis with the low startle point. The divorce scene was his harmonica getting flattened when he was thrown. That's the price we pay for love...accepting the beloved for better or for worse. Jack understood the predicament with the alimony and the attachment to his daughters. Every blended family has to face the dilemma of conflicting loyalties. If you can't fix it then you just gotta stand it. Jack had been standing it for years, and he would keep on standing it because he can't bear to quit the love that got no rein. :_(
We can't choose who we love. And we can't choose who we unlove. That's the whole point of "I wish I knew how to quit you."
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Wow! That's what I love about this place. Years later and new members still bring new insights to an old movie that we all love.
Indeed!
Very interesting discussions here about Jack's relationship with OMT and Jack's ideas about his relationship with Ennis. Just a couple of additional thoughts from reading these - It seems that OMT felt major disappointment about Jack long before anything about him being homosexual would have been apparent, there was the pissing scene Ennis recalls during his visit to Lightning Flat, which results in Jack's conclusion "No way to get it right with him after that." If Jack was as uncoordinated as a youth as later, couldn't shoot, couldn't work a can opener, etc. OMT probably felt the kid was gonna' be no help around the ranch and was destined to be a "momma's boy". He was dismissive of him (and abusive) very early on.
About Jack's understanding and maybe accepting the painful nature of his relationship with Ennis, I think Annie tries to give us some pretty direct insight into this by focusing on the shirts, first by starting the SS with them "The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft" which I feel means to show that Ennis had come to accept Jack and his love of Jack, and all that means. And then by ending the SS with them which shows how Jack had come to accept (and live with) Ennis "the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one".
Not necessarily the relationship either had wanted, neither of 'em could fix it, but both of 'em were able to stand it, because they both knew that they (Ennis and Jack) were like two skins one inside the other, created by nature, a force of nature. I personally don't believe Jack would have kept these symbols, icons, of their relationship dating from its very beginning, if he had given up on it. They would have been very painful reminders of its failure. To me they were like reminders of its ultimate strength (for both Jack and eventually Ennis).
:c)
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It's true that Jack's father abused him from early on, when Jack was but a small child. But I think the disdain grew even more as Jack got older and his father realized his son was "queer". I think that was the real reason he did not want the ashes scattered on Brokeback, and the reason he was so cruel to Ennis. He was frowning upon their relationship in that way, showing how much he disapproved. Both Jack and Ennis had very bad relationships with their fathers, but I don't think Jack's father would have crossed a certain line that Ennis's father surely would have. John Twist wouldn't kill his son for being gay, while Ennis's father probably would. If Jack and Ennis had come and lived on his parents' ranch, well John Twist would have known perfectly well what was going on, but wouldn't harm them physically. Ennis's father takes it to another level...remember that Ennis believed that he most likely was Earl's killer...I think Ennis was completely terrified of his father, while Jack had a very strained relationship with his father, but wasn't scared of him. The fear Ennis had of his father was so strong, that if he had been alive, I doubt Ennis would have had a romantic relationship with Jack at all, no matter how much he wanted to, the fear of what his father would do would have not allowed him to.
Back to the topic of Jack "quitting" Ennis...this film has so much of that, characters saying lines but what they mean is something completely different from what they say aloud, the "I wish I could quit you" line is a perfect example of that. Jack loved Ennis and had spent twenty years trying to get him to listen and make the small dream come true...the dream of a couple in love, being together all the time, living together, but over and over again Ennis denied him that, because he could not overcome his fears, Ennis oblivious to how much he was hurting Jack's feelings time and again by doing this. But Jack's love for him was unconditional, and so Jack would never give up on him. In the end, "I wish I could quit you"...it means "I love you, I love you, Ennis, no matter how much hurt it's caused me, no matter how much this living a lie is tearing us apart and denying us our right to be together"...it meant Jack would never give up. Ennis was the one true love of his life and Jack was in it for the long haul. This is why Ennis ultimately suffers the most, Jack dies knowing he did everything humanly possible to be the one he loved, while Ennis lives for years after, lonely and with immense sorry and regret that he was a large part of the reason for their suffering being apart, and with the added sorrow and regret of how much Jack's feelings had been hurt, while Ennis hadn't even realized it till then. Ennis learns the lesson, but pays a heavy price.
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It always makes me wonder why Jack never approached Ennis with the idea of living at his folks place when he had mentioned it to his folks and also said some other fella was going to do it later on in the story. I guess he kind of hinted at it when he suggested they get a little cow and calf operation but when Ennis shot that idea down maybe Jack just gave up on that? After the divorce he never asked Ennis to move there with him, but maybe he knew Ennis would not leave his girls, although Jack's folks place was a lot closer than Texas. Jack's folks seemed to be out in the middle of no where so I can see Ennis living there but definitely not college educated Randall who had a good job and family in Texas. Ennis was used to not having anything so living and working on that god forsaken ranch he would have had no problem with. I sure Jack would have, but to be with Ennis full time I think he still would have been happy to make the trade off and leave the money and Texas in his rear view mirror.
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I think Jack spoke to Ennis numerous times throughout their meetings together over the years about living together. The look of utter frustration he had at the last meeting showed a man who had lost his dream. The "cow-and-calf operation" he mentioned at the first reunion was him talking about how he wanted to go to Lightning Flat with Ennis and transform his parents' place, and build a log cabin on the premises to live in. Jack also hints at it the first summer in 1963 when he tells Ennis that he will be at his parents' ranch throughout the winter, in hopes that Ennis will go there. I think over the years, Jack proposed many plans for him and Ennis to live together, one involving Lightning Flat, and others not. I think he probably also suggested Ennis go to Texas with him, maybe sometimes suggested a place like Denver too.
The main point was that Jack didn't care where they lived as long as he was with Ennis, as long as he got to be with him all the time and see him every day. He wanted to live together as a couple, and Ennis's refusal of that is what sent Jack on a path of misery, where as the years went by, he became more and more sad and frustrated, hence the heavy drinking, the trips to Mexico and the affair with Randall. Ennis really had no idea how much he was breaking Jack's heart by refusing his proposal. I also find it hard to believe that Randall would want to leave everything behind to go to a place like Lightning Flat, another reason why I think what John Twist said was just a lie to hurt Ennis. There is no doubt that Jack was having an affair with Randall, but as to whether he had actually asked Randall the same thing he'd asked of Ennis (to come live with him), I doubt it. I think that was just something Jack's father made up to hurt Ennis and belittle his own son and Ennis's relationship. Fortunately, Jack's mother was kind, and helped Ennis find the shirts so that he would know what the truth really is, that Jack truly, deeply loved him, and he was the only one in Jack's heart for all that time.
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I guess I have a slightly different take on the relationship between Jack and his father than some (and maybe on Jack himself for that matter; I don't think there's any indication that he's uncoordinated or necessarily perpetually bad with a can opener - I think those scenes were just meant to show that he liked to talk big and couldn't always deliver. But to me it also meant he always aimed high and hoped for the best. That's how he got Ennis, after all :c) ).
Whether Jack was uncoordinated as a child or not though had no bearing on his father's abuse imo. Abusive people are abusive and it isn't about what the other person did to set it off. Especially in people who abuse children. Jack could have been born perfect in every way, did everything his father said from the moment he could walk and talk, and OMT still would have found a reason to beat and berate him. If it wasn't being queer or peeing on the toilet seat, it would have been the way he walked, the tone of his voice or the way he baled hay. The trigger isn't the cause; the cause is the anger inside of the abuser - the trigger is just the excuse the abuser uses to justify his/her actions. But as to the way Jack's dad talked about him when Ennis visited Lightning Flat, I've always thought that his resentment was less about Jack being queer and more about the fact that he left and never came back to help with the ranch. Said he was always talking about it, how he and Ennis were going to move up there, build a cabin and help Dad get the ranch in shape. But that it never came to pass (his contempt here seems less about the notion of Jack and Ennis living together and more about the fact that Jack didn't deliver and actually come do that). I'm sure he had the standard amount of contempt for homosexuals that most rural people had at that time but I've always felt that if Jack had followed through on that promise, if he had come back to Lightning Flat and built a cabin with Ennis and they'd whipped the old man's ranch into shape, he would have turned a blind eye as long as they didn't reveal their relationship in his presence and he had a successful ranch. To me it just seemed like his resentments were all about being left with no help on the ranch and had nothing to do with Jack's orientation. Especially since both the original story and the film used the same very specific language when OMT told Ennis about that.
And like everyone else, I certainly think he added the part about the rancher coming up instead to hurt Ennis. Presumably Jack did actually tell him that because it seems unlikely those are the details his dad would make up, but we'll never know if Jack truly intended that or just wanted to say it to get dad off his back or take a jab at Ennis out of frustration (even though he never would have thought that Ennis would find out he'd said it, perhaps he just said it in a moment of anger). Being a romantic, I naturally cannot consider the possibility that Jack would really give up on Ennis and bring someone else up there so in my heart it was an empty remark to dad in a passing moment. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :*(
And while I'm not entirely sure why the old man refused to allow Jack's ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, I also think that had more to do with his leaving and less with his orientation. He said Jack "thought he was too godamn special to be buried in the family plot." I think insisting on that was his Dad's way of (quite literally) putting him in his place, asserting the only control he had left over where Jack did or didn't go. Was there any shred of actual attachment for his son buried in all of that resentment and animosity? Who knows? By this point in the story, I have no sympathy for Jack's dad. He made his choices in life. Had he treated his son better, maybe Jack would have stayed. Or come back at some point and helped him build something. But that lonely house on that untended piece of land that we saw upon Ennis' visit is the fate that those choices brought him. It's just enormously sad that Jack's mom was stuck there with him.
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I do agree that Jack's father would have abused him had he not been gay as well. Jack being gay was only part of the father's resentment. An abuser is an abuser, and he would have come up with something no matter what Jack did. To a parent like that, their child can "never do anything right". I do believe though he wasn't the big monster that Ennis's father was. He liked to be the "stud duck", most of his abuse were cruel, awful words that cut emotionally and psychologically. He wasn't the type to grab a tire iron and beat someone to death. If Jack had brought Ennis to his parents' ranch, it would be obvious to Jack's father what type of relationship his son was having with this man...but Jack's father would have just ignored it as long as he had help on the ranch. I disagree however that Jack's father insisting his ashes be kept on the ranch was not, at least in part, about the fact that his son was gay. I think it was. He knew what Brokeback Mountain meant to Jack, and that it had to do with him being in love with another man.
I just can't imagine any homophobe wanting to acknowledge Ennis and Jack's love, to him, just like someone said, that place is where "my no-good queer son did all those things with that other queer". It was disgraceful for him, and he was ashamed of his son. If I was Jack, I honestly would have never gone back to visit his that ranch. Unfortunately what happens with children who are abused or treated badly by a parent growing up, they develop a sort of paradoxical relationship with them. Jack resented his father on one hand, but on the other hand, still longed to be accepted by him. Of course, another reason Jack would go to the ranch is to visit his mother, who looked like she did actually love him and accept him for who he was. The way she treated Ennis made that apparent, she treated Ennis like a beloved son-in-law. I know I went off topic sorry.
Back to the actual question, I do believe either Jack just blurted out on his last trip to his parents' ranch something about bringing Randall up there instead. But I believe he just blurted it out in frustration, not really meaning it. Remember, that was the last trip when Jack could no longer keep everything inside, and had shouted at Ennis and blamed him for a large part of their misery. John Twist then uses those words to hurt Ennis, and show his disapproval of the relationship. Once again, John Twist knowing he couldn't do anything about the relationship, Jack would do what Jack wanted to do, because unlike a lot of abused kids, Jack had a tremendous amount of courage and always fought for his right to be happy. The only thing John Twist could do is deny Ennis the ashes and make some hurtful comments to him. But that was all water under the bridge when Ennis found the shirts, then no cruel words from anyone could hurt the truth.
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Well said, FlwrChild. Your articulate analysis of abusers reminded me of Good Will Hunting, and Robim Williams telling Will, "It's not your fault." :_(
Jack indeed told Ennis about the little cow and calf operation during their first reunion, by the river, when Ennis thanked heaven and the stars. The response from Ennis shut him down in tears. I doubt Jack brought it up again much, considering there'd be his parents there. Imagine Ennis facing a father figure while shacking up with another man. Not going to happen. Jack was caught between a rock and a hard place, and the damn unsatisfactory situation drove him to drink, where he took solace over the rainbow, where bluebirds sing next to a whiskey spring. Telling the old man about Randall was just Jack's angry reaction to the Last Confrontation. That wasn't going anywhere. If Jack had lived through November, he'd change his tune again soon enough.
"I wish I knew how to quit you." Yeah, that's how it is with Brokeback Mountain, Ennis and Jack. Years from now, I'd still be like Jack getting a response from Ennis, or Ennis getting a postcard from Jack. Redlining all the scenes and lines of dialogue from the movie and short story, as soon as someone mention anything related to Brokeback Mountain, and all the associated memories come flooding back. There's no rein on this one. You bet.
:c)
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Well said, FlwrChild. Your articulate analysis of abusers reminded me of Good Will Hunting, and Robim Williams telling Will, "It's not your fault." :_(
Jack indeed told Ennis about the little cow and calf operation during their first reunion, by the river, when Ennis thanked heaven and the stars. The response from Ennis shut him down in tears. I doubt Jack brought it up again much, considering there'd be his parents there. Imagine Ennis facing a father figure while shacking up with another man. Not going to happen. Jack was caught between a rock and a hard place, and the damn unsatisfactory situation drove him to drink, where he took solace over the rainbow, where bluebirds sing next to a whiskey spring. Telling the old man about Randall was just Jack's angry reaction to the Last Confrontation. That wasn't going anywhere. If Jack had lived through November, he'd change his tune again soon enough.
"I wish I knew how to quit you." Yeah, that's how it is with Brokeback Mountain, Ennis and Jack. Years from now, I'd still be like Jack getting a response from Ennis, or Ennis getting a postcard from Jack. Redlining all the scenes and lines of dialogue from the movie and short story, as soon as someone mention anything related to Brokeback Mountain, and all the associated memories come flooding back. There's no rein on this one. You bet.
:c)
I agree completely agree with this! I believe Jack only said it that last time he was at his parents' house because he'd just had a fight with Ennis and he was frustrated and heartbroken. I don't think he was really serious about it. Come November, he would have been there with Ennis again...and perhaps Ennis was about to finally come around. I think perhaps Jack brought up the same proposal in different packages over the years...perhaps when he asked Ennis again it wasn't going to be the ranch and cabin at his parents' place, maybe Jack proposed that Ennis go to Texas or another state...Colorado comes to mind, because I remember Jack in the motel scene answering Ennis about what do people do when "this happens to them"...and Jack said...they go to Denver. I would imagine Jack asked Ennis several times over the years about the life together...and when he came over after the divorce, he didn't even have to say it...he was there for that reason.
I think it was maybe after that time that he stopped asking though...and didn't bring it up again till the last time they saw each other. The divorce scene was the beginning of the end for Jack...after that he was never the same again, he became a very broken man and turned to drinking and trip to Mexico for dealing with the pain. Also, I don't blame him for having the affair with Randall...he really needed the companionship and feeling close to someone that he obviously couldn't get from prostitutes, and could only get from Ennis for two weeks out of a year...so I completely understand why he began the relationship with Randall. That was someone he could see often, and whom offered a real relationship. He needed someone to love, someone who cared for him. Of course, it wasn't the epic true love, man-of-his-dreams, soul mates relationship like he had with Ennis, that's something that only happens once-in-a-lifetime, but it was an average loving relationship, and far better than being alone and lonely.
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"I wish I knew how to quit you." Yeah, that's how it is with Brokeback Mountain, Ennis and Jack. Years from now, I'd still be like Jack getting a response from Ennis, or Ennis getting a postcard from Jack. Redlining all the scenes and lines of dialogue from the movie and short story, as soon as someone mentions anything related to Brokeback Mountain, and all the associated memories come flooding back. There's no rein on this one. You bet.
Hey LC, . . I swear . . . .
:^^) O0
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Hey LC, . . I swear . . . .
:^^) O0
I'm not joking. After all these years, all of a sudden I find myself reading posts from 2007, reliving those early days when emotions ran all over the place, when PBS was raw and worn on the sleeve...like old friends telling tales of good old days. Every detail nuanced to bring back laughter and tears. Tears softened by time, laughter brightened by the passing years. We need a re-union...kiss. :^^) {b} :c)
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We know Jack didn't quit Ennis, because he died before November.
We have to imaginate what Ennis must have thought when he knew about the other fella... if Jack could possibly leave him.
I'm still analyzing it, but I guess Ennis realized Jack would never leave him (about the shirts), but I'm not totally sure yet, if the shirts really meant that for Ennis.
Notice. The trip for Lightning Flat was the longest trip he took in his whole life, knowing Jack was dead, if Jack just stopped answering his postcards, Ennis would hunt him in Texas, Lightning Flat and even in Mexico and bring his darling back for sure.