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Hi, everyone--
I checked the topic list and I know there was already a thread on the motel scene, but it was mostly about whether this would have been too public for Ennis, or exactly how they were able to get a room. I'm more interested in talking about the scene itself--specifically, what it tells us about each of them. Although it's a pretty short scene, I feel like it really reveals some important qualities of Jack and of Ennis--and about what the nature of their future relationship is likely to be.
A few thoughts: Jack is holding Ennis, and keeps turning his head so that his lips are in Ennis's hair. Ennis is lying on Jack's chest, holding/rubbing his forearm as they talk. Both men are smoking, though we see Ennis taking more puffs than Jack, mostly because Jack has a lot more to say.
So what do you think about how this scene gives us insight into their relationship? What clues are we meant to pick up on here?
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Hi, everyone--
I checked the topic list and I know there was already a thread on the motel scene, but it was mostly about whether this would have been too public for Ennis, or exactly how they were able to get a room. I'm more interested in talking about the scene itself--specifically, what it tells us about each of them. Although it's a pretty short scene, I feel like it really reveals some important qualities of Jack and of Ennis--and about what the nature of their future relationship is likely to be.
A few thoughts: Jack is holding Ennis, and keeps turning his head so that his lips are in Ennis's hair. Ennis is lying on Jack's chest, holding/rubbing his forearm as they talk. Both men are smoking, though we see Ennis taking more puffs than Jack, mostly because Jack has a lot more to say.
So what do you think about how this scene gives us insight into their relationship? What clues are we meant to pick up on here?
To me, the most telling and exquisite detail is how Ennis communicates to Jack by tugging the arm that embraces him.
Jack:"Old Brokeback got us good." By way of response, Ennis tugs at Jack's arms.
It is a most eloquent affirmation. No words needed.
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the way ennis "shivers" after jack asked "and what about you?" ennis just mumbles something, and it always makes me sad that jack cannot see ennis' face in that little moment, cause it's all said in it, all his overwhelming feelings he's not able to show or talj about.
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To me, this scene just confirms for them, and us, that they are the love of each other's loves. Ennis is letting Jack hold him, surrendering to Jack again, not a small feat for Ennis. This mirrors the SNIT. There is a comfort level there that we don't see when they are with any other people in their lives. To them, it feels right, like they belong in each other's arms. The body language just says it all; how much in love and excited they are to be together. I love Ennis' arm nudges and Jack smelling Ennis hair, like he can't get enough of Ennis. Then, at the end of the scene when Ennis mournfully says "there's nothing we can do. Making a living's about all I got time for," he closes his eyes tight and takes a long drag of his cigarette. You can see how painful it is to him that he cannot be with Jack. I just love this scene! <^(
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There's also the fact that it's all in close-up, parallelling their closeness, and there are no distractions from the two of them together as we rarely see them.
I just love the little smile on Jake's face when he says, "Four years. Damn." You can hear his sudden realisation of how much time they're wasted and his surprise that after such a long interval they're back to where they were. That's love, too - being able to stand separation and absence then pick up the threads with no hesitation.
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Beautiful thoughts everyone!
The setting is sordid. But they strike me as almost virginal is this scene (sorry if this sounds quixotic). You have a sense as if they give their bodies to each other for the very first time.
As much as this is a very "sexy" scene, I cannot help thinking of it as a truly poigniant one.
Their love dominates everything -- even the sex. You see them physically content -- but definitely wanting more on a deeper level.
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Beautiful thoughts everyone!
The setting is sordid. But they strike me as almost virginal is this scene (sorry if this sounds quixotic). You have a sense as if they give their bodies to each other for the very first time.
As much as this is a very "sexy" scene, I cannot help thinking of it as a truly poigniant one.
Their love dominates everything -- even the sex. You see them physically content -- but definitely wanting more on a deeper level.
I never thought of using the word "virginal" before, tpe, but I think it works perfectly here. After all, this is the first time they've been together in 4 years, and although they've both got wives, it's pretty clear they've been thinking of each other throughout those relationships. They are rediscovering the landscapes of one another's bodies and minds . . . coming back to the place where they worship again.
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Beautiful thoughts everyone!
The setting is sordid. But they strike me as almost virginal is this scene (sorry if this sounds quixotic). You have a sense as if they give their bodies to each other for the very first time.
As much as this is a very "sexy" scene, I cannot help thinking of it as a truly poigniant one.
Their love dominates everything -- even the sex. You see them physically content -- but definitely wanting more on a deeper level.
I never thought of using the word "virginal" before, tpe, but I think it works perfectly here. After all, this is the first time they've been together in 4 years, and although they've both got wives, it's pretty clear they've been thinking of each other throughout those relationships. They are rediscovering the landscapes of one another's bodies and minds . . . coming back to the place where they worship again.
They are rediscovering the landscapes of one another's bodies and minds . . . coming back to the place where they worship again.
So wonderfully said. It is a rediscovery. What was lost has been found.
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Two words:
Jacks dimple! :-* <^(
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But seriously
The snuggling-after-sex-in-the-motel scene is ..not just because it's incredibly sweet ,we realized that's in that scene ,we completely buy the fact that they are soulmates. The sleepy grunting and mumbling between them, as well as their obvious delight and disbelief at the fact that they've got something so real---the two actors pulled that scene off so convincingly. They truly belonged together, and despite the fact that they had been intimate before, that particular scene showed us, that it was a lifetime thing. :^^) <^(
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But seriously
The snuggling-after-sex-in-the-motel scene is ..not just because it's incredibly sweet but for myself, I realized that's the scene where I completely buy the fact that they are soulmates. The sleepy grunting and mumbling between them, as well as their obvious delight and disbelief at the fact that they've got something so real---the two actors pulled that scene off so convincingly. They truly belonged together, and despite the fact that they had been intimate before, that particular scene told me, that it was a lifetime thing. :^^) <^(
And I do like the dimple. ;)
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The whole thing is a sort of physical communion, not just sex for the sake of sex but sex as part of giving and merging and sharing.
Oh, yes, and there's the dimple, too.
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The whole thing is a sort of physical communion, not just sex for the sake of sex but sex as part of giving and merging and sharing.
Oh, yes, and there's the dimple, too.
I fet so happy for them here. It was as if they were sharing their joy with us all. So beautiful. It is a communion, but it goes far beyond the confines of their two bodies, their two souls...
Somehow, we become them.
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Ok... FNIT vs SNIT is , to me, the difference in who is in charge..Same with Reunion kiss VS motel scene.
FNIT and Reunion is very much Ennis running the show, yes I know jack instigates FNIT but he is very much on the recieving end after he starts... same with the reunion. Jack sends the post card and instigates contact but it is Ennis that runs the show when they meet...
Now in SNIT jack is the one that makes the moves, Ennis comes in but Jack strokes, and starts the kissing, gets Ennis to lay don't and lays on top sort of to be in the drivers seat. Ennis only has to follow Jacks lead and be kissed. In the motel scene he also just have to lie there and be comfortable in Jacks arms...
I dunno if this made sense to anyone else but this is the way I see it :) It is wonderful to see Ennis completly at ease with not beeing in charge... and so loving, those strokes on Jacks arm...wonderful
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Ok... FNIT vs SNIT is , to me, the difference in who is in charge..Same with Reunion kiss VS motel scene.
FNIT and Reunion is very much Ennis running the show, yes I know jack instigates FNIT but he is very much on the recieving end after he starts... same with the reunion. Jack sends the post card and instigates contact but it is Ennis that runs the show when they meet...
Now in SNIT jack is the one that makes the moves, Ennis comes in but Jack strokes, and starts the kissing, gets Ennis to lay don't and lays on top sort of to be in the drivers seat. Ennis only has to follow Jacks lead and be kissed. In the motel scene he also just have to lie there and be comfortable in Jacks arms...
I dunno if this made sense to anyone else but this is the way I see it :) It is wonderful to see Ennis completly at ease with not beeing in charge... and so loving, those strokes on Jacks arm...wonderful
Yes Esme: this makes total sense.
Thank you.
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Ok... FNIT vs SNIT is , to me, the difference in who is in charge..Same with Reunion kiss VS motel scene.
FNIT and Reunion is very much Ennis running the show, yes I know jack instigates FNIT but he is very much on the recieving end after he starts... same with the reunion. Jack sends the post card and instigates contact but it is Ennis that runs the show when they meet...
Now in SNIT jack is the one that makes the moves, Ennis comes in but Jack strokes, and starts the kissing, gets Ennis to lay don't and lays on top sort of to be in the drivers seat. Ennis only has to follow Jacks lead and be kissed. In the motel scene he also just have to lie there and be comfortable in Jacks arms...
I dunno if this made sense to anyone else but this is the way I see it :) It is wonderful to see Ennis completly at ease with not beeing in charge... and so loving, those strokes on Jacks arm...wonderful
Wow, Esme, beautifully put. As people have pointed out on other threads, we see Ennis taking care of Jack a lot of the time (not telling him about the dead sheep, ordering soup, etc.) but it's so wonderful here to see him let go of that need for control, and let Jack take care of him for once.
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And the one thing that strikes me, is when Ennis asks, "Army didn't get you?" That means that he has been thinking of the last conversation he had with Jack---and has thought about it for l4 years! You can just see the loves Ennis has for Jack in his eyes, and as it has been said before, the way he strokes Jack's arm!
I all but melt watching this scence! I think my DVD has a groove in it where this scene is!
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It suddenly occurred to me ( and I think this is *o) but am I bothered?) that one of the things that attracts me is seeing two men quite comfortable with each other's bodies. Don't know how Heath and Jake did it, because it looks convincing. I guess women are more accustomed to being touched, by children or medics or whoever, and men always seem to shy away from it, so part of the attraction if this scene ( and SNIT) is that lack of self-consciousness in the sens eof worrying about skin on skin.
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It suddenly occurred to me ( and I think this is *o) but am I bothered?) that one of the things that attracts me is seeing two men quite comfortable with each other's bodies. Don't know how Heath and Jake did it, because it looks convincing. I guess women are more accustomed to being touched, by children or medics or whoever, and men always seem to shy away from it, so part of the attraction if this scene ( and SNIT) is that lack of self-consciousness in the sens eof worrying about skin on skin.
I soooooo agree :) OT or not :)
and what just hit me as I was seeing it..in glorious Full Screen version, is that in the short story Ennis is lying on the bed ( spread eagled and spent I think is the description) and Jack is sitting on the foot of the bed... here they cuddle...they revel in eachother after sex...pretty damn ballsy for a couple a repressed, scared, closeted young men :)
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Somehow the fact that it's a motel is right too - they don't have a place of their own, only Aguirre's tent and a rented room, and never achieve one. They always seem unsettled in their own homes, but in this temporary place they're content. It's pure Donne :
For love, all love of other sight controls,
And makes one little room an everywhere.
One day I'll post "To his Mistress, Going to Bed" - it's a man undressing a woman but totally perfect for describing SNIT.
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I love everything about this scene. As others have said, all the little shows of affection are perfect - the way that Jack turns his face into Ennis's hair, the way that Ennis strokes Jack's arm every time he says something romantic. Just perfect. I do wish that Jack could have seen the little smile on Ennis's lips when he said what are we gonna do now, though - it would have shown him that Ennis really did care.
I also wish (and I guess this is probably OT) that the screenwriters had allowed Ennis to say more in this scene...in the SS he's much more chatty and he lets Jack know more of how he feels. I know the exact words may not have been appropriate, but maybe they could have allowed him a few more words?
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I love everything about this scene. As others have said, all the little shows of affection are perfect - the way that Jack turns his face into Ennis's hair, the way that Ennis strokes Jack's arm every time he says something romantic. Just perfect. I do wish that Jack could have seen the little smile on Ennis's lips when he said what are we gonna do now, though - it would have shown him that Ennis really did care.
I also wish (and I guess this is probably OT) that the screenwriters had allowed Ennis to say more in this scene...in the SS he's much more chatty and he lets Jack know more of how he feels. I know the exact words may not have been appropriate, but maybe they could have allowed him a few more words?
Amen to that! I so wanted Ennis to say the line about "took me about a year to figure out I shouldn't of let you out of my sight" in the motel room. A "declaration" of his feelings, if you will. Jack needed it! But, I guess the powers that be chose to show Ennis as more closed off. It does make the times Ennis shows affection, albeit without words, even more special, though, and more heartbreaking at the end when he finally realizes what he's lost. :'(
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I love everything about this scene. As others have said, all the little shows of affection are perfect - the way that Jack turns his face into Ennis's hair, the way that Ennis strokes Jack's arm every time he says something romantic. Just perfect. I do wish that Jack could have seen the little smile on Ennis's lips when he said what are we gonna do now, though - it would have shown him that Ennis really did care.
I also wish (and I guess this is probably OT) that the screenwriters had allowed Ennis to say more in this scene...in the SS he's much more chatty and he lets Jack know more of how he feels. I know the exact words may not have been appropriate, but maybe they could have allowed him a few more words?
Amen to that! I so wanted Ennis to say the line about "took me about a year to figure out I shouldn't of let you out of my sight" in the motel room. A "declaration" of his feelings, if you will. Jack needed it! But, I guess the powers that be chose to show Ennis as more closed off. It does make the times Ennis shows affection, albeit without words, even more special, though, and more heartbreaking at the end when he finally realizes what he's lost. :'(
There's this little glint in Ennis' eyes and a hint of a smile on his mouth for the whole scene, just chatting to Jack, enjoying a smoke a cuddle in the arms of the one he loves and the INSTANT Jack asks "what're we gonna do now?".... the happiness on Ennis's face dies. The glint and the smile are gone and its replaced by this coldness and the reality of their situation.
Its a sad moment, but it's one of Heath's most powerful.
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One moment I really love here, though, that I think does show a little of Ennis's emotion occurs right at the beginning of the scene, when Jack says, "Four years!" and Ennis replies, "yeah. Four years." His voice trembles right there, and I've always interpreted that little quaver as meaning he's overwhelmed by wonder, affection, love, joy--and luckily Jack can hear it. ;)
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All of these interpretations are so beautiful. It made me go watch the scene just to savor all of your insights. I personally enjoy the parts of this scene you can hear but can't see, like when Jack is talking about Lureen's father and remarks, "Hates my guts..." and you hear Ennis chuckle a little. You almost have to listen as much as watch to enjoy ALL the aspects of this scene. In reference to the last part where Ennis talks about being stuck with what he's got, not only does Ennis shut his eyes and and we see the disappointment in him at this realization, but I've watched Jack a few times as well and he just stays perfectly still, eyes closed, face turned toward Ennis' head, like he doesn't want to realize what the words Ennis is saying truly mean.
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the falshback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the falshback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
Don't know how I missed that before. In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene. Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not.
Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person. And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk. Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?
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That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
So true. Maybe a little bit off topic...but most of the key lines of the movie ("Tell you what. The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" for istance) are pronounced not looking at each other.
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There's this little glint in Ennis' eyes and a hint of a smile on his mouth for the whole scene, just chatting to Jack, enjoying a smoke a cuddle in the arms of the one he loves and the INSTANT Jack asks "what're we gonna do now?".... the happiness on Ennis's face dies. The glint and the smile are gone and its replaced by this coldness and the reality of their situation.
Its a sad moment, but it's one of Heath's most powerful.
This is to me among the sharpest turning points in the movie -- subtle yet very powerful.
Until this point there is hope that the reunion will bring them happiness, finally righting the wrong of four years earlier. Right there it becomes clear to them both how it has to be, and you see it in Ennis' face.
Certainly there are many other pivotal points in the movie, but I find this one especially poignant because of the big contrast between how it is played and what the ultimate meaning is.
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
Don't know how I missed that before. In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene. Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not.
Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person. And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk. Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?
I've heard that Ang Lee is really into the bookend scenes, so maybe Jack with his forearm around Ennis in the motel scene in a bookend to the dozy embrace scene where Ennis is holding Jack. Both scenes, to me, show Ennis and Jack at their most comfortable and loving moments in their relationship (in addition to SNIT). I absolutely think that the most important lines are not delivered eye to eye for a reason. These two guys were men's men, if you will; cowboys, masculine, and not supposed to show emotion. I don't think they could look each other in the eye when they said their most intimate things to each other or they would see the love and pain in each other's eyes. That would not be so manly to them, would it? It would be too much (son of a whore son bitch!). ;)
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When I posted my query this morning, I really did not expect a generosity of riches shared as all of you do now. Indeed, as shieldmaid and frances have suggested, in many of the most significant lines in the movie, they don't see eye-to-eye. And yes, stacp, I cannot help but think that this is another one of Ang Lee's bookends. As elaborated on by dalemidex, the motel scene is a pivotal point. It balances the flashback scene with beauty and with grace.
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The parallels go on to, in the shirts, first Jack embracing Ennis, so to speak, then in the trailer Ennis embracing Jack, and protecting him from the world as he couldn't while Jack was alive.
This scene is powerful in the ss but to me both sweeter and sadder in the movie, possibly because less is said.
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The parallels go on to, in the shirts, first Jack embracing Ennis, so to speak, then in the trailer Ennis embracing Jack, and protecting him from the world as he couldn't while Jack was alive.
This scene is powerful in the ss but to me both sweeter and sadder in the movie, possibly because less is said.
That's so true. This scene in the motel also resonates for me with the scene by the campfire ("you know it could be like this, just like this, always"). Jack is hopeful, full of love, wanting to build a life with Ennis. Ennis is also full of love, but cautious and fearful. Jack sits looking down at Ennis lying on the ground at the beginning of the scene; they look directly at each other and smile into one another's eyes. But by the end, Ennis has sat up and is fighting off tears, unable to look at Jack ("as long as we can ride it. there ain't no reins on this one")--as Jack strokes his cheek to comfort him. As you say, sweet and sad and so powerful.
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
Don't know how I missed that before. In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene. Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not.
Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person. And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk. Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?
I've heard that Ang Lee is really into the bookend scenes, so maybe Jack with his forearm around Ennis in the motel scene in a bookend to the dozy embrace scene where Ennis is holding Jack. Both scenes, to me, show Ennis and Jack at their most comfortable and loving moments in their relationship (in addition to SNIT). I absolutely think that the most important lines are not delivered eye to eye for a reason. These two guys were men's men, if you will; cowboys, masculine, and not supposed to show emotion. I don't think they could look each other in the eye when they said their most intimate things to each other or they would see the love and pain in each other's eyes. That would not be so manly to them, would it? It would be too much (son of a whore son bitch!). ;)
What about the LastNIT-Ennis's arm around Jack from behind too-so cute and lovable <^(
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I love it,when Jack and Ennis , having a post-coital cigarette. It's so amazingly intimate.. <^(
BTW,they haven't been before in a room together ,only outdoors on BBM
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I love it,when Jack and Ennis , having a post-coital cigarette. It's so amazingly intimate.. <^(
BTW,they haven't been before in a room together ,only outdoors on BBM
So true. That dive was probably like the Ritz Carlton honeymoon suite to them.
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I love it,when Jack and Ennis , having a post-coital cigarette. It's so amazingly intimate.. <^(
BTW,they haven't been before in a room together ,only outdoors on BBM
So true. That dive was probably like the Ritz Carlton honeymoon suite to them.
Any place where they made love must have been a palace to them. :)
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I couldn't help wondering if Ennis might have driven by there, later on, and always found his eyes drawn to that place, the place where he was reunited with the love of his life, if only briefly. Perhaps that's why Ang Lee chose to include that big, gaudy motel sign--it points to the place where our heroes find one another again.
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When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.
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When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.
He is tryinmg to shore up the status quo here. It is not that he does not love Jack. He is afraid of losing him again. He is afraid of losing what little they have...
Love is expressed in the strangest of ways...
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
Don't know how I missed that before. In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene. Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not.
Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person. And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk. Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?
Another wonderful thread. (Since I didn't get in on this forum from the beginning, I'm still scrolling through and getting in on sometimes-old threads I find of interest...which is all of them!)
First, I have a comment on the specific subject of these quoted posts. There was a study done with two little girls and two little boys (maybe 7 years old?) as subjects. The pairs were given chairs to carry into a room and put the chairs wherever they wanted and sit down and talk or whatever. The majority of the pairs of girls put the chairs facing each othe. The majority of the pairs of boys put the chairs side-by-side. So, it is something interesting about how men might be more inclined to communicate, differently than women. This is too simplistic, but women bond by sharing, they are the ones who embrace each other and the world, saying come on in. Men are like side-by-side protecting the perimeter, etc. I know, a huge generalization, but with that in mind, it makes me notice Ennis and Jack's body postures and body language together.
I love what everyone has said about this scene. I don't think I have anything to add -- I just love their ease and comfort with each other here. All the many, many little moments that express how they feel about each other. Beautiful quietly expressive moments, sexy, poignant, sad...
kathy
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I couldn't help wondering if Ennis might have driven by there, later on, and always found his eyes drawn to that place, the place where he was reunited with the love of his life, if only briefly. Perhaps that's why Ang Lee chose to include that big, gaudy motel sign--it points to the place where our heroes find one another again.
I'm sure that he must have...I know I would, all those memories! <^(
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
First, I have a comment on the specific subject of these quoted posts. There was a study done with two little girls and two little boys (maybe 7 years old?) as subjects. The pairs were given chairs to carry into a room and put the chairs wherever they wanted and sit down and talk or whatever. The majority of the pairs of girls put the chairs facing each othe. The majority of the pairs of boys put the chairs side-by-side. So, it is something interesting about how men might be more inclined to communicate, differently than women. This is too simplistic, but women bond by sharing, they are the ones who embrace each other and the world, saying come on in. Men are like side-by-side protecting the perimeter, etc. I know, a huge generalization, but with that in mind, it makes me notice Ennis and Jack's body postures and body language together.
That's so intresting!! I love your observations ,
Thank you Kathy :cr)
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I love what everyone has said about this scene. I don't think I have anything to add -- I just love their ease and comfort with each other here. All the many, many little moments that express how they feel about each other. Beautiful quietly expressive moments, sexy, poignant, sad...
kathy
Thank Kathy. sexy, poignant, sad... This is a wonderful summary in 3 words.
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When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.
He was closing the door to future of them ever living together. He still loved Jack, but his fear of the tire iron, and
coming to terms with the fact the person he was desperately in love with was a man, prevented him from believing
he could have that "sweet life". If it was his wife holding him back, he could have took off with Jack after
Alma divorced him. There was so much fear in poor Ennis's head. I believe the biggest one being he didn't
want to be queer. Living with Jack would make him that in his mind. Just getting together ever y once and
awhile out in the middle of nowhere, made it just that "thing".
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And Ennis was so good at finding excuses - making a living, paying his child support, being there for the girls - the events in the motel start him off in this pattern of closing off possibilities without even thinking about it. I wonder if / when he looked back on these moments what he thought they represented.
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DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate? I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other. Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis. In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack. In both cases, they do not see eye to eye. They are a striking parallel to each other...
That's a great point, tpe. It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other. Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.
Don't know how I missed that before. In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene. Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not.
Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person. And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk. Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?
I've heard that Ang Lee is really into the bookend scenes, so maybe Jack with his forearm around Ennis in the motel scene in a bookend to the dozy embrace scene where Ennis is holding Jack. Both scenes, to me, show Ennis and Jack at their most comfortable and loving moments in their relationship (in addition to SNIT). I absolutely think that the most important lines are not delivered eye to eye for a reason. These two guys were men's men, if you will; cowboys, masculine, and not supposed to show emotion. I don't think they could look each other in the eye when they said their most intimate things to each other or they would see the love and pain in each other's eyes. That would not be so manly to them, would it? It would be too much (son of a whore son bitch!). ;)
I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.
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I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.
I do feel that it is not a coincidence. And I do feel this is a bookend to the flashback scene, which the above quote references.
Thank you.
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I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.
Yes, except for the divine huge strong man-hugs in reunion scene, and when first meeting after the divorce. Those were so overt, so undeniable -- no question about who Ennis was hugging...
kathy
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I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.
Yes, except for the divine huge strong man-hugs in reunion scene, and when first meeting after the divorce. Those were so overt, so undeniable -- no question about who Ennis was hugging...
kathy
Hmmm. I've been thinking about this...
FNIT: a little face-to-face contact, but mostly not
SNIT: quite a bit of ftf, but Ennis keeps eyes closed
Reunion: Unmitigated ftf; once again Ennis mostly has eyes closed... but still
Motel: not ftf
dozy embrace: not ftf, but Ennis looking around as if to see Jack better....
Ahdunno.
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Maybe the hugs are at times when there's no sex, as in the dreamy hug or the ones after the divorce? And int the morel scene it was afterwards, and the sex wasn't shown - their being together and talking was the point here.
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Maybe the hugs are at times when there's no sex, as in the dreamy hug or the ones after the divorce? And int the morel scene it was afterwards, and the sex wasn't shown - their being together and talking was the point here.
This is most likely true. The motel scene is post-coital, when their sexual urges have been temporarily satisfied (although the short story takes pains to say that they have not yet completely "softened".) In spite of appearances, I think that post-coital scene was largely sexless -- similar to the dozy embrace.
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As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.
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As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.
Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scne. It is quite visceral. But it indeed has a transcendent power.
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Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scne. It is quite visceral. But it indeed has a transcendent power.
I think you're so right, tpe--one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is that you see them using so many of their own senses. Jack smells Ennis's hair, Ennis strokes Jack's arm, they listen intently to one another's words--and I'm sure they're still tasting each other after the intensely physical experience they've just had. ;) Significantly, the one sense that isn't used as much here is sight, as everyone's been discussing. They are communicating with their other senses this time.
And yes, can we smell it ourselves? I think so--remember the short story: "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit, and cheap soap."
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I think you're so right, tpe--one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is that you see them using so many of their own senses. Jack smells Ennis's hair, Ennis strokes Jack's arm, they listen intently to one another's words--and I'm sure they're still tasting each other after the intensely physical experience they've just had. ;) Significantly, the one sense that isn't used as much here is sight, as everyone's been discussing. They are communicating with their other senses this time.
And yes, can we smell it ourselves? I think so--remember the short story: "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit, and cheap soap."
One thing that moves me is that the scent of a lover remains after he is long gone -- even on one's own person.
I do not mean to offend those of us who are fastidious in their tastes, but the way they kissed, the way they embraced, one cannot help but getting drunk on the physcial presence of the beloved. Even as the room smelled of terrible things, it is surely the scent of each other that overpowers them, inebriates them -- like incense, like choice perfume.
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Ennis looks so content in this scene, so relaxed, and it's not just because of the sex. I imagine him thinking something like, "this is happiness, being right here, in his arms" (and Jack probably thinks "this is happiness, having him right here in my arms...")
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As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.
Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scne. It is quite visceral. But it indeed has a transcendent power.
I'd like to quote from A.P. short story:
"The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap. Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent, Jack blowing forceful cigarette clouds like whale spouts, and Jack said, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good. "
Sigh.... I rest my case..
BTW. I do miss the underlined quote
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Oh yes hpv, I love this quote! I wish Ang kept the motel scene more close to the original and included this line... he could've cut on other scenes! (less Cassie or less LaShawn would be fine by me...)
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Practically no Lashawn would be fine too. I'd rather have more of scenes like this, which is almost more powerful in the ss, simply because it's all about nothing ( and everything) happening.
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Oh yes hpv, I love this quote! I wish Ang kept the motel scene more close to the original and included this line... he could've cut on other scenes! (less Cassie or less LaShawn would be fine by me...)
From an interview I heard or read someplace I think Annie Proulx initially was very concerned that the motel scene was pared down too much. But a lot of the guts of the motel scene (I don't have the book with me to see specifics) were moved to different, later points in the movie. And ultimately Ms Proulx said (essentially) it worked out better this way for the movie. I tend to agree. The short story necessarily has to (a) be much more compact and (b) reply on dialog. When I think about how the move flowed in general -- the pacing of it, how the characters spoke, and how of the story was "told" to us in words versus "revealed" to us in other ways, I think that the motel scene couldn't have remained intact. Too much. Too soon. Too wordy and too upfront. At least compared to how the rest of the story played out.
There are things in the short story motel segment, including some lines, that I'd very much like to have heard. But I'm just not sure it would have worked quite right if they had left it as is. And if I recall correctly. Ms Proulx ultimately agreed.
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Oh yes hpv, I love this quote! I wish Ang kept the motel scene more close to the original and included this line... he could've cut on other scenes! (less Cassie or less LaShawn would be fine by me...)
From an interview I heard or read someplace I think Annie Proulx initially was very concerned that the motel scene was pared down too much. But a lot of the guts of the motel scene (I don't have the book with me to see specifics) were moved to different, later points in the movie. And ultimately Ms Proulx said (essentially) it worked out better this way for the movie. I tend to agree. The short story necessarily has to (a) be much more compact and (b) reply on dialog. When I think about how the move flowed in general -- the pacing of it, how the characters spoke, and how of the story was "told" to us in words versus "revealed" to us in other ways, I think that the motel scene couldn't have remained intact. Too much. Too soon. Too wordy and too upfront. At least compared to how the rest of the story played out.
There are things in the short story motel segment, including some lines, that I'd very much like to have heard. But I'm just not sure it would have worked quite right if they had left it as is. And if I recall correctly. Ms Proulx ultimately agreed.
I do like the way they moved some of the crucial aspects into the night scene up on Brokeback. Had the screenwriters followed the ss to the letter, we would have been deprived of the "anything up there in heaven..." scene. That would have been a great loss. And the story of Earl and Rich works so well in this later scene. Light and shadows...
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A short story and a movie are two different genres. What works in one does not work so well in the other. If we wanted to remain complete purists, we could have said, "No, don't make the movie. It would ruin the beautiful short story." ( *o)This is what is preventing us from seeing JG as Holden Caufield--Salinger won't let anyone make a movie of _Catcher in the Rye_).
The short story is beautiful, perfect, spare, and cutting.
The movie is beautiful, enchanting, allusive, and devastating.
I'm very thankful we have both.
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A short story and a movie are two different genres. What works in one does not work so well in the other. If we wanted to remain complete purists, we could have said, "No, don't make the movie. It would ruin the beautiful short story." ( *o)This is what is preventing us from seeing JG as Holden Caufield--Salinger won't let anyone make a movie of _Catcher in the Rye_).
The short story is beautiful, perfect, spare, and cutting.
The movie is beautiful, enchanting, allusive, and devastating.
I'm very thankful we have both.
This is a good discussion, as the motel scene is the best example of how the movie and short story deviate from each other, and yet attain the same goal: to move us, and to touch us.
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As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.
Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scene. It is quite visceral. But it indeed has a transcendent power.
I'd like to quote from A.P. short story:
"The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap. Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent, Jack blowing forceful cigarette clouds like whale spouts, and Jack said, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good. "
Sigh.... I rest my case..
BTW. I do miss the underlined quote
Well ,I brought this specific quote to emphasize A.P. exquisite description of the atmosphere in the motel room especially the SMELL...of course that the story is not the movie..both are perfect IMHO..
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As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.
Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scene. It is quite visceral. But it indeed has a transcendent power.
I'd like to quote from A.P. short story:
"The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap. Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent, Jack blowing forceful cigarette clouds like whale spouts, and Jack said, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good. "
Sigh.... I rest my case..
BTW. I do miss the underlined quote
Well ,I brought this specific quote to emphasize A.P. exquisite description of the atmosphere in the motel room especially the SMELL...of course that the story is not the movie..both are perfect IMHO..
Yes, the smells of different things are emphasized in the short story... part of what makes it so affecting.
The smells of the motel room are not emphasized, though it does seem Jack smells Ennis's hair....
But other times in the movie, smells are very much emphasized. Ennis especially smells his own shirt, smells Jack's bloody shirt, smells Jr's jumper.... Very nice touch.
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:t) Edgar ^f^
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:t) Edgar ^f^
And thanks also hpv . :)
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In addition to the smells implied by this scene :), I really love the fact that they're rediscovering the feel of one another's bodies. I know that's been said in many ways before--but their relationship is so intensely tactile. Ennis can never tell Jack straight out how he feels--he has to show him, and in no better way than here, stroking his arm (unless it's the reunion kiss . . . ).
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Their love dominates everything -- even the sex. You see them physically content -- but definitely wanting more on a deeper level.
I never thought of using the word "virginal" before, tpe, but I think it works perfectly here. After all, this is the first time they've been together in 4 years, and although they've both got wives, it's pretty clear they've been thinking of each other throughout those relationships. They are rediscovering the landscapes of one another's bodies and minds . . . coming back to the place where they worship again.
They are rediscovering the landscapes of one another's bodies and minds . . . coming back to the place where they worship again.
So wonderfully said. It is a rediscovery. What was lost has been found.
Reading this thread fills me with joy. It is so beautiful and your notices so true and illuminative.
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I think you're so right, tpe--one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is that you see them using so many of their own senses. Jack smells Ennis's hair, Ennis strokes Jack's arm, they listen intently to one another's words--and I'm sure they're still tasting each other after the intensely physical experience they've just had. ;) Significantly, the one sense that isn't used as much here is sight, as everyone's been discussing. They are communicating with their other senses this time.
And yes, can we smell it ourselves? I think so--remember the short story: "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit, and cheap soap."
One thing that moves me is that the scent of a lover remains after he is long gone -- even on one's own person.
I do not mean to offend those of us who are fastidious in their tastes, but the way they kissed, the way they embraced, one cannot help but getting drunk on the physcial presence of the beloved. Even as the room smelled of terrible things, it is surely the scent of each other that overpowers them, inebriates them -- like incense, like choice perfume.
Smells belong to life. I liked both in the movie and Annie ProulxŽs story that they were so real, true, not sanitized.
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THanks Carmilla. I love your comment about smell being a part of life. And certainly the story is not sanitized. There is enough hint of this in the movie. There is enough suggestive power...
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Meant to say this yesterday. The sense of smell is closely linked in the brain to both emotion and memory.
I'm sure many of us have had the experience of walking into, say our parents's house, after a long time away and smelling a familiar smell which sends a pang to the center of the heart.
A familiar perfume.... The aroma of a certain dish being cooked.... The scent of new-mown hay..... The boquet of a certain wine....
All these things instantly transport me to previous scenes in my life.
And, btw, venturing ever closer to the edge of the *o) precipice, D. H. Lawrence has a great short story, "The Odor of Chrysanthemums" in which that titular "odor" (and anyone who knows chrysanthemums knows that's the right word) accompanies a woman through all the important phases of her life.
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Meant to say this yesterday. The sense of smell is closely linked in the brain to both emotion and memory.
I'm sure many of us have had the experience of walking in, say our parents's house, after a long time away and smelling a familiar smell which sends a pang to the center of the heart.
A familiar perfume.... The aroma of a certain dish being cooked.... The scent of new-mown hay..... The boquet of a certain wine....
All these things instantly transport me to previous scenes in my life.
And the olfactory sense has a more primitive power. Animals certainly rely on this more than humans. With humans, it is weakened, submerged. It peeps out only in the deepest of human needs and emotions. It harks back to the bedrock of what makes us living creatures.
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In a minute someone's going to refer to Proust, so I'll do it.
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In a minute someone's going to refer to Proust, so I'll do it.
When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...
(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)
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When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...
(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)
Gorgeous, tpe--thanks. (I *knew* there was a reason why I should get Remembrance of Things Past off my shelf and actually read it!)
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When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...
(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)
Gorgeous, tpe--thanks. (I *knew* there was a reason why I should get Remembrance of Things Past off my shelf and actually read it!)
You're welcome shieldmaid. This whole discussion about sensory perception in the motel scene is indeed very Proustian. Another suberb Proustian moment is the scene where Ennis discovers the shirts. The short story again dwells on the golden moment of memory. It is unimaginably moving.
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When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...
(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)
Gorgeous, tpe--thanks. (I *knew* there was a reason why I should get Remembrance of Things Past off my shelf and actually read it!)
You're welcome shieldmaid. This whole discussion about sensory perception in the motel scene is indeed very Proustian. Another suberb Proustian moment is the scene where Ennis discovers the shirts. The short story again dwells on the golden moment of memory. It is unimaginably moving.
I have long believed that Proulx deserved a place among the writers that modern civilization chooses most to honor. If you've never read The Shipping News, her first book (winner of both the Pulitzer and the National Book Award), I highly recommend it.
Sorry, OT--how about this to get us started again? One of the things I most love about this scene--let me just be honest here--is the simple fact that they're both shirtless. I think it's the only time, other than SNIT, when we see them really revelling in the feel of each other's skin. They hardly ever get to enjoy it--but here they do. And Ang Lee's decision to let us see just a little--"only so far, and nothing more"--proves far more sensual and tantalizing than the full monty could have. ;)
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When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.
He is tryinmg to shore up the status quo here. It is not that he does not love Jack. He is afraid of losing him again. He is afraid of losing what little they have...
Love is expressed in the strangest of ways...
I'm going to have to disagree with both of you on this scene and Ennis's reaction. While we know Ennis really cares for and is obviously attracted to Jack, and vice vera, we need to remember, these two are uneducated and unworldly invidivuals here. That is not meant as a critism of intellectual capabilities, but rather, to appreciate that Ennis has never been in a situation he finds himself in with a male lover.. Deliberately closing the door to thier future somewhat implies that Ennis knows he and Jack are capable of a future together as a couple. He doesn't. 1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman. Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do. We can speculate what Ennis would do were there not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack. Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship. Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.
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When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.
He is tryinmg to shore up the status quo here. It is not that he does not love Jack. He is afraid of losing him again. He is afraid of losing what little they have...
Love is expressed in the strangest of ways...
I'm going to have to disagree with both of you on this scene and Ennis's reaction. While we know Ennis really cares for and is obviously attracted to Jack, and vice vera, we need to remember, these two are uneducated and unworldly invidivuals here. That is not meant as a critism of intellectual capabilities, but rather, to appreciate that Ennis has never been in a situation he finds himself in with a male lover.. Deliberately closing the door to thier future somewhat implies that Ennis knows he and Jack are capable of a future together as a couple. He doesn't. 1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman. Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do. We can speculate what Ennis would do were there not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack. Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship. Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.
CherryCake I believe you are absolutely correct. Ennis had no idea what to do about anything. There was no "gay world" in 1963 Wyoming for him to learn from. All he knew is that he and his best friend were having sex and this must be kept quiet because they might be killed. Didn't Ennis inquire about others feeling the way he a Jack did? "I don't know but they don't do it in Wyoming. They must go to Denver."
So for 20 years the two of them would get together for their little togetherness with both loving the other but one loving a whole lot more then the other realized; until he found the shirts. Ennis never knew what could have been done about the situation.
I can not believe after all the words written about this that you have hit the nail on the head. Bravo CherryCake!
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I have long believed that Proulx deserved a place among the writers that modern civilization chooses most to honor. If you've never read The Shipping News, her first book (winner of both the Pulitzer and the National Book Award), I highly recommend it.
Sorry, OT--how about this to get us started again? One of the things I most love about this scene--let me just be honest here--is the simple fact that they're both shirtless. I think it's the only time, other than SNIT, when we see them really revelling in the feel of each other's skin. They hardly ever get to enjoy it--but here they do. And Ang Lee's decision to let us see just a little--"only so far, and nothing more"--proves far more sensual and tantalizing than the full monty could have. ;)
Oh yes, you're so right. It is almost better to see a bit less -- more erotic to leave something to the imagination. Here, seeing their bare skin, knowing they're naked -- we didn't get enough of that, so it's very beautiful. Naked and sated... They probably had dozed off first, after their marathon lovemaking; and what we see is still the middle of the night, after they woke up in each other's arms, and maybe Ennis got up to go to the john and came back and sat on the edge of the bed and Jack pulled him down to lie against him...
kathy
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I have long believed that Proulx deserved a place among the writers that modern civilization chooses most to honor. If you've never read The Shipping News, her first book (winner of both the Pulitzer and the National Book Award), I highly recommend it.
Sorry, OT--how about this to get us started again? One of the things I most love about this scene--let me just be honest here--is the simple fact that they're both shirtless. I think it's the only time, other than SNIT, when we see them really revelling in the feel of each other's skin. They hardly ever get to enjoy it--but here they do. And Ang Lee's decision to let us see just a little--"only so far, and nothing more"--proves far more sensual and tantalizing than the full monty could have. ;)
Oh yes, you're so right. It is almost better to see a bit less -- more erotic to leave something to the imagination. Here, seeing their bare skin, knowing they're naked -- we didn't get enough of that, so it's very beautiful. Naked and sated... They probably had dozed off first, after their marathon lovemaking; and what we see is still the middle of the night, after they woke up in each other's arms, and maybe Ennis got up to go to the john and came back and sat on the edge of the bed and Jack pulled him down to lie against him...
kathy
Yes, and I am happy they are in some warm place, in that motel, and not outside in a cold tent. :)
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.... 1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman. Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do. We can speculate what Ennis would do were there not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack. Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship. Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.
CherryCake I believe you are absolutely correct. Ennis had no idea what to do about anything. There was no "gay world" in 1963 Wyoming for him to learn from. All he knew is that he and his best friend were having sex and this must be kept quiet because they might be killed. Didn't Ennis inquire about others feeling the way he a Jack did? "I don't know but they don't do it in Wyoming. They must go to Denver."
So for 20 years the two of them would get together for their little togetherness with both loving the other but one loving a whole lot more then the other realized; until he found the shirts. Ennis never knew what could have been done about the situation.
I can not believe after all the words written about this that you have hit the nail on the head. Bravo CherryCake!
Than you for your opinions. "Ennis never knew what could have been done about the situation." I agree, he was lost and knew the threat of violence.
Smell fascinates me. Even human beings are said to choose their partners for their unique aroma. Not knowingly it, but instinctively. It is a relic from ancient times, when it served reproducing best possible progeny to survive and continue the human race to exist.
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[I'm going to have to disagree with both of you on this scene and Ennis's reaction. While we know Ennis really cares for and is obviously attracted to Jack, and vice vera, we need to remember, these two are uneducated and unworldly invidivuals here. That is not meant as a critism of intellectual capabilities, but rather, to appreciate that Ennis has never been in a situation he finds himself in with a male lover.. Deliberately closing the door to thier future somewhat implies that Ennis knows he and Jack are capable of a future together as a couple. He doesn't. 1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman. Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do. We can speculate what Ennis would do were there not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack. Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship. Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.
This is acceptable to me. But, with or without a notion of "gayness", I do think Ennis expresses here the impossibility of changing his life to accomodate his love of Jack.
As for living as a couple, Ennis must have had an idea of this as a possibility, particularly in the case of Earl and Rich. Even as a young boy growing up, he was made to understand why Earl and Rich did not conform -- hence, the inevitable punishment metted out by a disapproving society. It is not that he was unaware of such possibilities; it was a matter of his inability to bring about a change in his life in order to live out a love that he knew, from prior experience, was bound to attract disapproval and (in his mind) inevitable reprisal.
But I do think that closing the door to the possibility of a shared life did not necessarily mean that Ennis was closing the door on his love for Jack. The solution was a clandestine love. So long as they did not live openly the shared life that Jack dreamed of having, their love stood a chance of surviving through the years. This is why I had always interpreted this strange pattern of limited engagements as a way for Ennis to protect their love from the forces that sought to destroy it.
Ennis must have envisioned possibilities that society at large would never have accepted out in the open. It certainly did not need a notion of gayness, which is a latecomer relative to the ancient and persistent tradition of love between men. At the core of this is my personal belief that such a love is as natural as rain and sunshine. The possibilities have been envisioned for millenia. It cannot be suppressed, even as light cannot be hidden in perpetual darkness.
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... At the core of this is my personal belief that such a love is as natural as rain and sunshine. The possibilities have been envisioned for millenia. It cannot be suppressed, even as light cannot be hidden in perpetual darkness.
Thank you, tpe! <^(
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It's almost as though he has minimal expectations, not just of love but of everything, and settles for limitations in all sorts of ways. He also doesn't expect to be loved and can't really handle the idea, because he's never been seen as lovable till he meets Jack. (I 'm excluding Alma - that's just Ennis doing the conventional thing.) I can see him thinking of Jack as like some wonderful present, something you never dreamed of having, something you don't deserve, and so to be put away carefully and played with only occasionally. There's also the sense that he doesn't deserve Jack, and if he draws the attention of the gods they'll snatch him away.
AS far as love between two men ( or two women) is concerned, it's always existed. What varies is the amount of energy put by conventional society into repressing it and demonising those involved. Though it wasn't called that, there was certainly a gay scene in the UK in the sixties - I lived then in a smallish town on the borders of Wales where a friend was gay and out; he was part of a gay group who were discreet but not secretive. I think Ennis knew about the possibilities but just couldn't acknowledge where his inclinations lay, and so constantly refused to do anything other than shut the door.
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I still don't think it's a lack of acknowledgement on Ennis's part - I think he does know where his preferences lie, but he buries his feelings deep down because of the fear of being struck down by the men with tire irons. When he tells Jack that it ain't gonna be that way, he doesn't say it's"because I'm not queer", he says it's because of what happened to Earl. Also - and bringing it back to the topic - although the change of location for the "sweet life" conversation means it's not used in the movie, in the short story, Ennis tells Jack that if his father walked through the door (of the motel room) at that moment he would go and get his tire iron for sure - and that's the reason why they can't live together.
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You also need to remember Ennis' personality...he is very responsible...always does his job (unless Jack sends a postcard).
Also, Ennis was orphaned at an early age, and would never leave his daughters...he knew what it was to be without a father. Even a divorced sometime dad is better than no dad
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You also need to remember Ennis' personality...he is very responsible...always does his job (unless Jack sends a postcard).
Also, Ennis was orphaned at an early age, and would never leave his daughters...he knew what it was to be without a father. Even a divorced sometime dad is better than no dad
I think that's a really important point. It's not that Jack wasn't a responsible person, it's just that Ennis was more interested in having a family than he was. The short story says something like, "Ennis used to want a boy for a kid but never got anything but little girls," while Jack says, "I didn't want none of either kind but f*&k-all has worked the way I wanted." For Ennis family responsibility--and the painful memories of gay-bashing that his father instilled in him--remain greater weights in his day-to-day life than Jack.
But wait, maybe I don't really even mean that. Jack is obviously the greatest happiness of his love, also the greatest disappointment . . . but Ennis can't quite figure out how to articulate/show the responsibility he feels toward Jack. Maybe that's it. :(
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Also, Ennis was orphaned at an early age, and would never leave his daughters...he knew what it was to be without a father. Even a divorced sometime dad is better than no dad
This is a good point.
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I also think that he feared he'd lose his daughters (or Alma might prevent him from seeing them) if he lived openly with Jack
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This is acceptable to me. But, with or without a notion of "gayness", I do think Ennis expresses here the impossibility of changing his life to accomodate his love of Jack.
As for living as a couple, Ennis must have had an idea of this as a possibility, particularly in the case of Earl and Rich. Even as a young boy growing up, he was made to understand why Earl and Rich did not conform -- hence, the inevitable punishment metted out by a disapproving society. It is not that he was unaware of such possibilities; it was a matter of his inability to bring about a change in his life in order to live out a love that he knew, from prior experience, was bound to attract disapproval and (in his mind) inevitable reprisal.
But I do think that closing the door to the possibility of a shared life did not necessarily mean that Ennis was closing the door on his love for Jack. The solution was a clandestine love. So long as they did not live openly the shared life that Jack dreamed of having, their love stood a chance of surviving through the years. This is why I had always interpreted this strange pattern of limited engagements as a way for Ennis to protect their love from the forces that sought to destroy it.
Ennis must have envisioned possibilities that society at large would never have accepted out in the open. It certainly did not need a notion of gayness, which is a latecomer relative to the ancient and persistent tradition of love between men. At the core of this is my personal belief that such a love is as natural as rain and sunshine. The possibilities have been envisioned for millenia. It cannot be suppressed, even as light cannot be hidden in perpetual darkness.
Beautifully said, tpe. Of course Ennis knew that such love existed, and that such a life together with a man was a possibility, regardless of any culture of "gay" or lack thereof. Especially as he learned about this at a young age, it was imprinted on him in those formative years both the positive aspects he must have observed about those two tough old birds, and the negative outcome of the situation. And his solution -- the "clandestine love" as you said -- was the best he could do. Protecting them both, protecting their love. Jack was a silly dreamer, thinking they could just up and be together no problem.
And I love what you said about men having always been together (and so have women). It didn't really matter what time Ennis and Jack would have met. As far as that goes, as far as the time they did meet -- they might have seen media coverage about the civil rights movement and become politicized, but they didn't. Their lives weren't really connected out in the larger society of the U.S. very much. Not exactly saying that too well..but just to say I like what you said.
kathy
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I also think that he feared he'd lose his daughters (or Alma might prevent him from seeing them) if he lived openly with Jack
Yes, it is interesting that Jack did not seem to feel the same way when it comes to losing Bobby in a divorce.
For Ennis, it must have been the experience of being orphaned. He did not want his daughters to lose a parent, be it in divorce or an untimely death in the hands of bigots.
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What a wonderful thread sheildmaid, its been so interesting reading everyone's opinions and feelings about this beautiful and very important scene. I love how it begins, with Jack, taking a drag on his cigarette before saying "four years...damn", I just find that opening really captivating. The way Jack nuzzles into Ennis' hair, and Ennis repeating Jack "yeah, four years" while tenderly touching and rubbing his arm, as he does throughout the scene.
There's one part that I would love to see Ennis' face completely, its when Jack says "didnt know we were going to get into this again....". I know we get to see him when Jack asks "what about you?" but I'm being really picky and can't help wondering how Ennis reacted to Jack saying this.
But the overall scene is, as Kathy said in an earlier post, sexy, poignant, and sad. It's all those things - its wonderful to see them with their bodies touching, and them feeling so relaxed with each other - but ultimately, its Ennis' forlorn face at the end that just brings it back to reality. :\'( :\'(
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It's so interesting to me, too, how short this scene is. Lots of people have commented on the short length of FNIT (was it 29 seconds??)--this is similar. They get to touch each other, cuddle, confide, catch up a bit--but only for so long. It's as though reality has to come rushing back in again all too soon. At least they get to go "fishing" together for a while after this. :(
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It's so interesting to me, too, how short this scene is. Lots of people have commented on the short length of FNIT (was it 29 seconds??)--this is similar. They get to touch each other, cuddle, confide, catch up a bit--but only for so long. It's as though reality has to come rushing back in again all too soon. At least they get to go "fishing" together for a while after this. :(
I think it was 27 seconds in FNIT - not that I've studied it at all, you understand ;)
The difference is that we see the entirity of FNIT from start to finish - we don't see that with the motel scene. Although what we see is short (and sweet), it's only the culmination (or maybe the lull in the middle?) of a whole night together.
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Ang is good at showing the aftermath of passion - "Calm of mind, all passion spent", as Milton puts it. Next morning we see them asleep then Ennis waking; just before the final confrontation there's another shot of them asleep together. We never see Jack asleep with Lureen, nor Ennis with Alma, just another indication, I like to think, that it's only together that they are satiated and contented.
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The difference is that we see the entirity of FNIT from start to finish - we don't see that with the motel scene. Although what we see is short (and sweet), it's only the culmination (or maybe the lull in the middle?) of a whole night together.
Ang is good at showing the aftermath of passion - "Calm of mind, all passion spent", as Milton puts it. Next morning we see them asleep then Ennis waking; just before the final confrontation there's another shot of them asleep together. We never see Jack asleep with Lureen, nor Ennis with Alma, just another indication, I like to think, that it's only together that they are satiated and contented.
These are both such good points--I guess this puts us in a bit of a "fly on the wall" perspective. We get to see part of what's going on, but not all of it. Maybe that implies that their reunion is in some ways so precious to them that even we can't glimpse it--that it's best left up to our imaginations. And it's only with each other that they feel truly comfortable, relaxed, at home. Doesn't matter whether it's in a hotel room or in the woods--with each other they find peace.
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The difference is that we see the entirity of FNIT from start to finish - we don't see that with the motel scene. Although what we see is short (and sweet), it's only the culmination (or maybe the lull in the middle?) of a whole night together.
Ang is good at showing the aftermath of passion - "Calm of mind, all passion spent", as Milton puts it. Next morning we see them asleep then Ennis waking; just before the final confrontation there's another shot of them asleep together. We never see Jack asleep with Lureen, nor Ennis with Alma, just another indication, I like to think, that it's only together that they are satiated and contented.
These are both such good points--I guess this puts us in a bit of a "fly on the wall" perspective. We get to see part of what's going on, but not all of it. Maybe that implies that their reunion is in some ways so precious to them that even we can't glimpse it--that it's best left up to our imaginations. And it's only with each other that they feel truly comfortable, relaxed, at home. Doesn't matter whether it's in a hotel room or in the woods--with each other they find peace.
What I would have loved to seen in the motel sequence (as in the short story) is where Jack gets bold and talks Ennis into going to the mountains with him. He practically begs Ennis to at least give him a couple more days. Of course Ennis goes.
For some reason I miss Jack's bitching and Ennis trying to make Jack happy. Never enough. :d)
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I know what you mean--it's partly just those normal, everyday interactions that help make them so real and desirable. I would love to hear the conversation on the way TO the motel, too . . . if they could control their lust long enough to make some kind of sense. ;)
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I copied from Jack's pict.thread sure Twisted won't mind,they belong here as well
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66823.jpg&hash=cca6fa1d01cb817df7c951e17afbba95df6badf0)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66824.jpg&hash=9c0aacf9c02931db346350b7cbfde4a72062f00a)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66825.jpg&hash=433ea4139ac6ee7139f0e2fa494d3739684638b0)
There's something wrong at the hosting company, where i put my pics, because they aren't showing :( I'll put new pics, and hope that the old pics shows someday. :)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F106776%2Fcap060.jpg&hash=4631e0fb99d54d7b120cab56a64dba8501d26824)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F106777%2Fcap069.jpg&hash=9bda6cbb1eb68e804bbf07189e80ddc360816b2f)
Never enough time,never enough...SIGH.. <^(
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One of the interesting things about this scene is that it's so delocalised; there's the exterior shot, then the "motel room" could be anywhere - there's a part of a bed-head shown and that's it. The focus is all on Jack and Ennis, because it doesn't really matter where they are - they're together and anything else would be a distraction.
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One of the interesting things about this scene is that it's so delocalised; there's the exterior shot, then the "motel room" could be anywhere - there's a part of a bed-head shown and that's it. The focus is all on Jack and Ennis, because it doesn't really matter where they are - they're together and anything else would be a distraction.
True--I'm reminded, too, of the movie's tagline: "Love is a force of nature." When they're outside in the wilderness together, the beauty of the natural world seems to reflect the beauty of their love for one another. But when they're indoors or otherwise involved in the humdrum human world (such as Ennis's apartment, as someone pointed out earlier), the background shrinks away until all we can see is them and their passion, close up and squeezing everything else out of view.
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It's so interesting to me, too, how short this scene is. Lots of people have commented on the short length of FNIT (was it 29 seconds??)--this is similar. They get to touch each other, cuddle, confide, catch up a bit--but only for so long. It's as though reality has to come rushing back in again all too soon. At least they get to go "fishing" together for a while after this. :(
I think it was 27 seconds in FNIT - not that I've studied it at all, you understand ;)
The difference is that we see the entirity of FNIT from start to finish - we don't see that with the motel scene. Although what we see is short (and sweet), it's only the culmination (or maybe the lull in the middle?) of a whole night together.
Thats true, but lets face it, if they showed the whole of the motel scene, it would take up the whole film!!! ;)
Joking aside, as much as we want to see more, what we do see says so much doesnt it? And shows so much. But in so many scenes in this film, less is more.
There's another thing I love about this scene. I adore Ennis when he says "I figured you were sore from that punch"......not only because I love the way he says it, he sounds almost drunk, like he's intoxicated with having Jack next to him, but the fact that that punch has stayed with him all these years, and just like the "army didnt get you" line from him, it shows clearly that Ennis has been thinking constantly of Jack since leaving Brokeback.
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Thats true, but lets face it, if they showed the whole of the motel scene, it would take up the whole film!!! ;)
Now that's one film I'd like to see >:D :8
There's another thing I love about this scene. I adore Ennis when he says "I figured you were sore from that punch"......not only because I love the way he says it, he sounds almost drunk, like he's intoxicated with having Jack next to him, but the fact that that punch has stayed with him all these years, and just like the "army didnt get you" line from him, it shows clearly that Ennis has been thinking constantly of Jack since leaving Brokeback.
Yeah, I love that too. Pretty sure Ennis remembers everything from their time together on Brokeback - and I'm sure the fact that he says those things tells Jack all he really needs to know about how Ennis feels. I mean, you don't remember everything that happened to you during a period four years earlier unless that period was the most special and important of your whole life, do you?
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[Thats true, but lets face it, if they showed the whole of the motel scene, it would take up the whole film!!! ;)
Joking aside, as much as we want to see more, what we do see says so much doesnt it? And shows so much. But in so many scenes in this film, less is more.
There's another thing I love about this scene. I adore Ennis when he says "I figured you were sore from that punch"......not only because I love the way he says it, he sounds almost drunk, like he's intoxicated with having Jack next to him, but the fact that that punch has stayed with him all these years, and just like the "army didnt get you" line from him, it shows clearly that Ennis has been thinking constantly of Jack since leaving Brokeback.
Also, by seeing less, we get to spend a whole lot of time dreaming and thinking and talking about what we didn't see...and this is a good thing, si?
I love what you said, christie, about Ennis saying those lines -- not only the sexy way he says them (the sexy way he says everything) but that it shows how Jack has always been on his mind all these four years. (OT: but oh god, I want a BBM songvid to "You Are Always on My Mind" by Willie Nelson.)
kathy
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[Thats true, but lets face it, if they showed the whole of the motel scene, it would take up the whole film!!! ;)
Joking aside, as much as we want to see more, what we do see says so much doesnt it? And shows so much. But in so many scenes in this film, less is more.
There's another thing I love about this scene. I adore Ennis when he says "I figured you were sore from that punch"......not only because I love the way he says it, he sounds almost drunk, like he's intoxicated with having Jack next to him, but the fact that that punch has stayed with him all these years, and just like the "army didnt get you" line from him, it shows clearly that Ennis has been thinking constantly of Jack since leaving Brokeback.
Also, by seeing less, we get to spend a whole lot of time dreaming and thinking and talking about what we didn't see...and this is a good thing, si?
I love what you said, christie, about Ennis saying those lines -- not only the sexy way he says them (the sexy way he says everything) but that it shows how Jack has always been on his mind all these four years. (OT: but oh god, I want a BBM songvid to "You Are Always on My Mind" by Willie Nelson.)
kathy
I'm surprised there isnt one already? A song vid I mean.
And those lines that Ennis says, yes they are so sexy, but they do sound a little slurred, dont you think? No wonder I suppose, he was drinking all day waiting for Jack!!!!
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And those lines that Ennis says, yes they are so sexy, but they do sound a little slurred, dont you think? No wonder I suppose, he was drinking all day waiting for Jack!!!!
I always thought they were slightly slurred because he had just woken up after a post-coital doze.
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And those lines that Ennis says, yes they are so sexy, but they do sound a little slurred, dont you think? No wonder I suppose, he was drinking all day waiting for Jack!!!!
I always thought they were slightly slurred because he had just woken up after a post-coital doze.
You think they actually slept? ;) It may be that your theory is right, but I think I prefer thinking that he was just so intoxicated by Jack - god his voice is so godamn sexy.
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I copied from Jack's pict.thread sure Twisted won't mind,they belong here as well
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66823.jpg&hash=cca6fa1d01cb817df7c951e17afbba95df6badf0)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66824.jpg&hash=9c0aacf9c02931db346350b7cbfde4a72062f00a)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66825.jpg&hash=433ea4139ac6ee7139f0e2fa494d3739684638b0)
Hmmm... I'm not getting the pictures -- that's never happened before. Just the big blank space with the little X in the box up in the corner. Any info from anyone as to why that's happening? Thanks.
kathy
Never enough time,never enough...SIGH.. <^(
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And those lines that Ennis says, yes they are so sexy, but they do sound a little slurred, dont you think? No wonder I suppose, he was drinking all day waiting for Jack!!!!
I always thought they were slightly slurred because he had just woken up after a post-coital doze.
You think they actually slept? ;) It may be that your theory is right, but I think I prefer thinking that he was just so intoxicated by Jack - god his voice is so godamn sexy.
Again, I'm no expert, or is it just a joke on men, but don't men usually like doze off immediately after having sex? So by sleep, I would mean, just that little post-coital doze...
kathy
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Now that's another scene I would love to see--Ennis and Jack dozing in each other's arms. Then waking up, surprised and delighted to remember where they are . . . . <^(
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I can just imagine " BBM - the Cowboys Return" as made by some of us. It would be all motel scene. Do you remember a while back someone made ( as a work of art) a whole video of David Beckham sleeping? Well, this would be like that but with Jake and Heath - I bet they'd jump at the chance to do it, no lines, no moves, no rehearsals, just sleeping - course, there might be a bit of preliminary action but " no instruction needed" for that.
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Hmmm... I'm not getting the pictures -- that's never happened before. Just the big blank space with the little X in the box up in the corner. Any info from anyone as to why that's happening? Thanks.
kathy
I copied from Jack's pict.thread sure Twisted won't mind,they belong here as well
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66823.jpg&hash=cca6fa1d01cb817df7c951e17afbba95df6badf0)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66824.jpg&hash=9c0aacf9c02931db346350b7cbfde4a72062f00a)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fiso%2Fimg66825.jpg&hash=433ea4139ac6ee7139f0e2fa494d3739684638b0)
There's something wrong at the hosting company, where i put my pics, because they aren't showing :( I'll put new pics, and hope that the old pics shows someday. :)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F106776%2Fcap060.jpg&hash=4631e0fb99d54d7b120cab56a64dba8501d26824)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F106777%2Fcap069.jpg&hash=9bda6cbb1eb68e804bbf07189e80ddc360816b2f)
Never enough time,never enough...SIGH.. <^(
There they are again !!! <^(
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I'm noticing again here the fact that Jack seems much more unabashedly happy in these pics--Ennis's forehead is wrinkled, but Jack is smiling and his face is unlined. To me this makes many of Ennis's statements--"Didn't think I would hear from you again. Figured you was still sore from that punch"--somehow more poignant.
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OT - shieldmaid, congratulations on being Jacked!! &**)
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Thn you know there's going to be this huge comedown between the rapture of the reunion and Ennis's almost immediate crushing of Jack's hopes. you can see it in the set expression on his face, so different from Jack's. In the end Ennis's refusal to change turns Jack's expression into his - as when he goes to Mexico or in the confrontation scene.
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Now that's another scene I would love to see--Ennis and Jack dozing in each other's arms. Then waking up, surprised and delighted to remember where they are . . . . <^(
I'd love to see this. For instance, Ennis wakes up first, and we would get to see his face as he watches his Jack still sleeping, their faces just inches apart, their bodies all the way together still from falling asleep in each other's arms...and Ennis would kiss Jack awake...
kathy
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Thn you know there's going to be this huge comedown between the rapture of the reunion and Ennis's almost immediate crushing of Jack's hopes. you can see it in the set expression on his face, so different from Jack's. In the end Ennis's refusal to change turns Jack's expression into his - as when he goes to Mexico or in the confrontation scene.
Yes, ww, you're so right. Who was it here on some thread that talked about the period from when Jack got Ennis's "you bet" postcard, until the reunion and then in the motel, Jack's hopes and dreams were soaring (even though he was married too). He had it all figured out about the cow and calf operation...until that night by the fire when Ennis said "it's not going to be like that." How sad, sad, sad. And then it happened again, when Jack came up after Ennis's divorce. He just kept on being hopeful and dreaming that the love of his life would come around, kept having his hopes dashed, kept building them up again. I want to cry...
kathy
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My thoghts are concentrated on what happens before we see what we see in this scene. Can you imagine it , the trail of clothes from the door to the bed ? boot here,socks there ?,Ripped shirts everywhere? Judging from the urgency before hand , this must have been ......well my imagination is running wild right now . Gotta love Ennis,talkin about that punch...are they sweating? .Can hear motel managment after they leave: 1.Replace headboard.2. rehang drapes. ....etc.
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My thoghts are concentrated on what happens before we see what we see in this scene. Can you imagine it , the trail of clothes from the door to the bed ? boot here,socks there ?,Ripped shirts everywhere? Judging from the urgency before hand , this must have been ......well my imagination is running wild right now . Gotta love Ennis,talkin about that punch...are they sweating? .Can hear motel managment after they leave: 1.Replace headboard.2. rehang drapes. ....etc.
yup, imagination definitely works extra hours... ;)
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My thoghts are concentrated on what happens before we see what we see in this scene. Can you imagine it , the trail of clothes from the door to the bed ? boot here,socks there ?,Ripped shirts everywhere? Judging from the urgency before hand , this must have been ......well my imagination is running wild right now . Gotta love Ennis,talkin about that punch...are they sweating? .Can hear motel managment after they leave: 1.Replace headboard.2. rehang drapes. ....etc.
yup, imagination definitely works extra hours... ;)
Indeed, we sometimes forget how raw and so full of animal passion a love can be. Thank God for imagination. It fills in the lacunae.
And yes, the image of the sweat of love-making assults the senses, no? In the movie, both of them appear to glisten even as they lie satisfied in an embrace. The dampness of skin against skin -- quite a powerful, very visceral image.
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Still wish this scene was longer though. Would have liked to see some o that good oldfashioned pent up lust get released! I know I'm in the gutter, but mind goes there when I imagine what transpired in that room.Jack Nasty indeed . Eat your heart out Jimbo. you clown.
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Still wish this scene was longer though. Would have liked to see some o that good oldfashioned pent up lust get released! I know I'm in the gutter, but mind goes there when I imagine what transpired in that room.Jack Nasty indeed . Eat your heart out Jimbo. you clown.
To imagine what transpired in that room: even the very stench would be rare perfume.
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Do you notce that Ennis,s hair is messed up more that Jack's. what the hell does that imply.? They are glistening though.
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My subtitles are really bad (it's a copy) - can anyone tell me what they actually say in this scene? What they talk about?
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Do you notce that Ennis,s hair is messed up more that Jack's. what the hell does that imply.?
I guess it means Jack was running his fingers through Ennis' hair.
Over and over.
Holding Ennis's head.... #)
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My subtitles are really bad (it's a copy) - can anyone tell me what they actually say in this scene? What they talk about?
Hello jozsan. You should see this in the BBM Recital thread, although I am not sure where. The scenes in this thread more often than not follow the natural order of the scenes in the movie, so just follow it a few pages and I'm sure you will find it there...
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Or that Jake's contract specified that his haordresser should be there at all times, and Heath's didn't.
[Sorry flippant, in a silly mood, comes of being Ennised, don't like it.]
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Do you notce that Ennis,s hair is messed up more that Jack's. what the hell does that imply.? They are glistening though.
It also suggests to me that Jack is more into cuddling, foreplay, etc., than Ennis is, maybe. He's less inhibited, more able to let himself sink into the beauty of feeling Ennis close to him. Ennis is clearly revelling in the moment as well--witness his clutching of Jack's arm--but still feels more constricted. Or am I reading too much into this . . . . ;)
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Do you notce that Ennis,s hair is messed up more that Jack's. what the hell does that imply.? They are glistening though.
Ooohh i noticed this too. I wanna believe that Jack's hands were roaming all over Ennis, including his hair...
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Now we need a hair thread!
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Two things in particular got my attention in this scene :
The little frown of concentration on Ennis' face that shows how closely he is listening when Jack is talking. (Compare that to Alma talking, when often he only half-listens.)
The fact he asks Jack "The army didn't get ya?" using the exact words that Jack had used when they left Signal. Suggesting that Ennis has gone over and over that sad conversation in his mind for four years.
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I don't know how long you were in the army if you were drafted, but is it possible that Ennis could have thought of that as a reason why he hadn't seen Jack for so long? He's evidently remembered Jack's mentioning the army and I suppose it's plausible to think Jack had been in the army, got out and then sent the postcard - until Jack arrives Ennis doesn't know about the rodeo "career" or Lureen or Bobby.
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I don't know how long you were in the army if you were drafted, but is it possible that Ennis could have thought of that as a reason why he hadn't seen Jack for so long? He's evidently remembered Jack's mentioning the army and I suppose it's plausible to think Jack had been in the army, got out and then sent the postcard - until Jack arrives Ennis doesn't know about the rodeo "career" or Lureen or Bobby.
You know, that's a really good point.....maybe Ennis did think that Jack had been "got" by the army. Never considered that before.....
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I don't know how long you were in the army if you were drafted, but is it possible that Ennis could have thought of that as a reason why he hadn't seen Jack for so long? He's evidently remembered Jack's mentioning the army and I suppose it's plausible to think Jack had been in the army, got out and then sent the postcard - until Jack arrives Ennis doesn't know about the rodeo "career" or Lureen or Bobby.
You know, that's a really good point.....maybe Ennis did think that Jack had been "got" by the army. Never considered that before.....
I agree with NoReins. I think this is a good point. And I have not entertained this point of view until now. But it fits perfectly, doesn't it?
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Do you notce that Ennis,s hair is messed up more that Jack's. what the hell does that imply.? They are glistening though.
I'd like to think that Jack had ran his fingers through Ennis's hair, and actually I'm sure he did, but there's also a very simple explanation for it and you'll have to excuse me for being so pragmatic and un-romantic... you see, there are different types of hair. Jack's hair ALWAYS looks more tidy than Ennis's, that's just the kind of hair he has. My friend Rina has a "Jack hair" - even when she wakes up it looks like she'd already brushed it. and there are other types of hair, that tend to get messy very easily. Heath mentioned in an interview once that he has "bed hair" and he doesn't know what do to with it so he barely even brushes it. look at them at other scenes: when Ennis wakes up after FNIT with his hair so messy (and Jack's hair looks perfectly fine when he's lying there), or after their fight when Jack lassos Ennis before leaving the mountain. it's always the same.
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Even after Ennis makes it clear to Jack that they cannot be together in the motel scene cause "makin a livin is all I got Time for now", Jack's hopefull spirit remains as shown in the next scene where Ennis is lying back sending up a "prayer of thanks". for seeing Jack again. He is happy and content for the moment until Jack suggest the cow and calf poeration to him. He sits up ,shakes his head and explains to Jack why this could never be. His childhood fearsresurfacing again. WhenJ ack questions him about how long he'd have to wait , Ennis admits that he never wants to loose him ever again by saying "for as long as we can ride it, there aint no reins onthis horse. I dont't think Jack expected ths answer,but seemed happly surprised to hear ths,and shows his acceptance with caresses and a sweet look of understanding and reasurrance.
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I know what you mean--it's partly just those normal, everyday interactions that help make them so real and desirable. I would love to hear the conversation on the way TO the motel, too . . . if they could control their lust long enough to make some kind of sense. ;)
Sorry my reply is a little late from this posting, I've been away.
This has always been one of my greatest "wonderings" about this movie. After the kind of reception Jack received from Ennis, obviously unexpected, and then the uncomfortable introductions in the apartment, mixed with the angst of just getting somewhere to be alone together, how do these two interact on that ride to the motel? Just assuming it probably was a generous period of time in that Ennis would not be comfortable going somewhere to near home for the fear of being recognized, the anticipation had to be unbearable. Did they talk at all? Or simply ride in silence, maybe some small physical contact because obviously they can hardly stand being together for the first time in so long and not be physically, as well as emotionally, connected. Sideways glances or managing short, deep, loving looks at each other, still in amazement that they are again together. My mind plays with all these thoughts and more every time that moment comes between the reunion kiss and showing them in the motel scene. It's exhilarating and intensely, almost, painful at the same time.
Now I've got myself all stirred up! :d)
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I know what you mean--it's partly just those normal, everyday interactions that help make them so real and desirable. I would love to hear the conversation on the way TO the motel, too . . . if they could control their lust long enough to make some kind of sense. ;)
Sorry my reply is a little late from this posting, I've been away.
This has always been one of my greatest "wonderings" about this movie. After the kind of reception Jack received from Ennis, obviously unexpected, and then the uncomfortable introductions in the apartment, mixed with the angst of just getting somewhere to be alone together, how do these two interact on that ride to the motel? Just assuming it probably was a generous period of time in that Ennis would not be comfortable going somewhere to near home for the fear of being recognized, the anticipation had to be unbearable. Did they talk at all? Or simply ride in silence, maybe some small physical contact because obviously they can hardly stand being together for the first time in so long and not be physically, as well as emotionally, connected. Sideways glances or managing short, deep, loving looks at each other, still in amazement that they are again together. My mind plays with all these thoughts and more every time that moment comes between the reunion kiss and showing them in the motel scene. It's exhilarating and intensely, almost, painful at the same time.
Now I've got myself all stirred up! :d)
Ah, those missing 20 minutes between the reunion and when they got to the motel. I would've loved to have seen that! I figure they were both as jumpy as cats on a hot tin roof, so excited but trying to contain themselves. After all, Ennis is in his hometown. I can't imagine what it would be like to see the love of your life after four years. The anticipation and longing must have been unbearable. I bet a little foreplay went on; some hands on knees (or eslewhere >:D ). Touches that wouldn't be visible if someone looked in. I bet once they got the whiskey and got the room, they practically broke the door down and leaped on the bed, they couldn't stand it any longer. There' s some fan fic that plays out this scene; one in particular is really good. I'll post it if I can find it.
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Two things in particular got my attention in this scene :
The little frown of concentration on Ennis' face that shows how closely he is listening when Jack is talking. (Compare that to Alma talking, when often he only half-listens.)
The fact he asks Jack "The army didn't get ya?" using the exact words that Jack had used when they left Signal. Suggesting that Ennis has gone over and over that sad conversation in his mind for four years.
Yikes! I wonder if Ennis thought Jack didn't contact him in those 4 years was because he got drafted to Vietnam and perhaps was killed in action? What an awful thing for Ennis to go through, not knowing what happened to Jack.
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During those 4 yrs Ennis had alot of questions about what happened to him. Yes it must have been torture for for him not knowing what became of his "lil darlin".
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I'd never got as far as thinking of Jack as being killed in Vietnam, or worse MIA, but of course it's entirely possible, given the numbers killed and the fact that they were often boys from Jack's sort of background. Ennis must surely have wondered about him, although he was never going to do anything about re-establishing contact if Jack didn't.
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God I would pay good money for extra motel room footage!!!!!!!! Mr. Lee is such a tease!!!!!!!! He knew we would all be drooling for it!!!!!!
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God I would pay good money for extra motel room footage!!!!!!!! Mr. Lee is such a tease!!!!!!!! He knew we would all be drooling for it!!!!!!
I don't think Mr. Lee was making a porn movie for your entertainment. Probably figured there was enough porn you could rent or buy.
*o) By the way, have any of the women here ever rented a gay porn video?
If not, you really should try it. It is so much more satisfying than reducing a work of art into a porn movie, and you see a whole lot more too.
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God I would pay good money for extra motel room footage!!!!!!!! Mr. Lee is such a tease!!!!!!!! He knew we would all be drooling for it!!!!!!
I don't think Mr. Lee was making a porn movie for your entertainment. Probably figured there was enough porn you could rent or buy.
*o) By the way, have any of the women here ever rented a gay porn video?
If not, you really should try it. It is so much more satisfying that reducing a work of art into a porn movie, and you see a whole lot more too.
Whether my post had sexual connotations or not, I don't see how that should suggest reducing this beautiful work of art into anything...least of all a gay porn video.
The thrill of seeing them together more in any way, shape or form...sexual or not, would be worth it!
And for the record...If Jake and Heath are in it, I wouldn't just rent, I would buy up the store! :d)
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God I would pay good money for extra motel room footage!!!!!!!! Mr. Lee is such a tease!!!!!!!! He knew we would all be drooling for it!!!!!!
I don't think Mr. Lee was making a porn movie for your entertainment. Probably figured there was enough porn you could rent or buy.
*o) By the way, have any of the women here ever rented a gay porn video?
If not, you really should try it. It is so much more satisfying that reducing a work of art into a porn movie, and you see a whole lot more too.
Whether my post had sexual connotations or not, I don't see how that should suggest reducing this beautiful work of art into anything...least of all a gay porn video.
The thrill of seeing them together more in any way, shape or form...sexual or not, would be worth it!
And for the record...If Jake and Heath are in it, I wouldn't just rent, I would buy up the store! :d)
gimmejack, my post wasn't to you specifically even though I quoted you. Your post was just the little piece of straw.
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I don't think anyone here has an intention to reduce BBM to anything, least of all a porn film... although I get your point patriot, especially after reading the "horniest Jake scene" thread (you can really think we're talking about porn scenes when you read some of the posts...). I personally would be deeply disappointed if someone told me that the movie's highlight for them was to watch Jake and Heath making out, because that would mean they missed the whole point. This movie is so much more than just two guys going at each other and I'm sure all the members of ennisjack.com agree with that, so I take most of these posts as people making jokes and fooling around a little, I don't think that this is really the way people here view BBM.
Personally I wouldn't object more intimate scenes like the motel room scene. no, I'm not asking for another FNIT, I don't expect to see them screwing (pardon my bluntness) throughout the whole film, I guess that would really be tasteless. But a scene like the motel room - you don't see them having sex, you see them in a rare moment of closeness and intimacy, you see the deep love they share with each other. you see that in their smiles, in the way Jack holds Ennis and whispers into his hair, in the way Ennis strokes Jack's arm. that's totally beautifull and there's no harm in wanting a few more moments like that, I think... because after the reunion we barely see any signs of affection on their part, we see them riding and talking and arguing but we hardly see them show affection for each other, with the exeption of the last night when we see them sleeping and Ennis has his arm around Jack. one can almost get the feeling that they really are just fishing buddies, and we know they're so much more. I'd love to see more moments of love, tenderness, happiness between them - it doesn't have to be sex. but something like the motel room scene, when they're just lying in each other's arms and you know that both of them are so happy and peacefull now, and you can feel their love and their joy fill your heart - yeah, I definitelly wouldn't mind seeing more of that. we've all cried so much over their tragedy, it's only natural we'd want to share their few moments of bliss.
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Keren - thank you for that. You've just voiced exactly what I was feeling about this debate. The tenderness and, yes, love shown in the SNIT and motel room scenes are so beautiful and it's certainly not a crime to wish there had been more of that. Everyone on here was captivated by the love story as well as by the tragedy - deep down I think we all wish Ennis and Jack could have had that sweet life, even if it would have meant the story meant so much less - and so it's totally natural that we want to see them happy together as much as possible.
I wouldn't want to see more sex scenes (I may have joked about it occasionally, but I reckon that what we saw was enough to let us all know how it was between them) but I would love to have seen a few more hugs or even kisses between them as the years passed. I know there's a deleted scene from the "look what I brought" meeting where the two of them are hugging each other - I still wonder why that was cut as it seems a shame that the last physical affection we see is in the motel room, 16 years before their last meeting (apart from the last night together of course)
Anyway, I think I've probably strayed off topic here, but hopefully it's relevant to the discussion that Patriot1 started ;)
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I'd love to see more moments of love, tenderness, happiness between them - it doesn't have to be sex. but something like the motel room scene, when they're just lying in each other's arms and you know that both of them are so happy and peacefull now, and you can feel their love and their joy fill your heart - yeah, I definitelly wouldn't mind seeing more of that. we've all cried so much over their tragedy, it's only natural we'd want to share their few moments of bliss.
Keren, what a wonderful post, wonderfully worded and I agree wholeheartedly. The motel scene is a truly beautiful moment for lots of reasons - their first time together after 4 years, showing them lying together, close and content, and also the fact that it was Ennis' initiation of the reunion kiss that led them to the motel room. Its this kind of moment, where there is so much love and contentment and happiness (albiet shortlived), that I too would like to see much more of. There is so much tragedy and sadness in this story that it would have been good for us to have been lifted by a few more scenes of Ennis and Jack showing each other affection.
Lindsey mentioned the "look what I brought" scene and I was thinking of that scene in particular too in regards to showing affection between them. It's a beautiful hug they share, and is sad we didnt get to share it with them. I expect Ang had his reasons, but for us who only want more happy times for them, they are far and few between. The motel scene being a prime example, and I so adore Ennis and the way he constantly rubs Jack's arm, it's so so beautiful and tender. The whole scene is, but that in particular just gets me every time.
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Beautifully put Keren, No Reins...thank you for your voices. After all, we are all in the same boat here...addicted to BBM and in love with the story. It is only natural for a bit of possesiveness to occur over something you hold so close to your heart, but i'm sure it is understood that we would not be here if we all did not feel the same about this movie.
Though everyone is entitled to their feelings and perspective, there is just no place for bitterness when we are all here in kindred spirit and advocates of tolerance and love.
Back on topic...I would still pay good money for more motel room scene footage, whether it be kissing, cuddling, silhouette of them in the shower, anything at all. But yeah, too much sex scenes would take a way from the movie definetely.
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God I would pay good money for extra motel room footage!!!!!!!! Mr. Lee is such a tease!!!!!!!! He knew we would all be drooling for it!!!!!!
I don't think Mr. Lee was making a porn movie for your entertainment. Probably figured there was enough porn you could rent or buy.
*o) By the way, have any of the women here ever rented a gay porn video?
If not, you really should try it. It is so much more satisfying than reducing a work of art into a porn movie, and you see a whole lot more too.
To answer your question Patriot...... yes I have rented porn movies, and no, it was not as satisfying as Jack and Ennis in
the intimate scenes of this movie !
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God I would pay good money for extra motel room footage!!!!!!!! Mr. Lee is such a tease!!!!!!!! He knew we would all be drooling for it!!!!!!
I don't think Mr. Lee was making a porn movie for your entertainment. Probably figured there was enough porn you could rent or buy.
*o) By the way, have any of the women here ever rented a gay porn video?
If not, you really should try it. It is so much more satisfying that reducing a work of art into a porn movie, and you see a whole lot more too.
Whether my post had sexual connotations or not, I don't see how that should suggest reducing this beautiful work of art into anything...least of all a gay porn video.
The thrill of seeing them together more in any way, shape or form...sexual or not, would be worth it!
And for the record...If Jake and Heath are in it, I wouldn't just rent, I would buy up the store! :d)
Very good gimmejack. Would you pick me up a copy if you find one of Heath and Jake!!!
Love ya !
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God I would pay good money for extra motel room footage!!!!!!!! Mr. Lee is such a tease!!!!!!!! He knew we would all be drooling for it!!!!!!
I don't think Mr. Lee was making a porn movie for your entertainment. Probably figured there was enough porn you could rent or buy.
*o) By the way, have any of the women here ever rented a gay porn video?
If not, you really should try it. It is so much more satisfying than reducing a work of art into a porn movie, and you see a whole lot more too.
I don't think anyone here is reducing BBM to a piece of "gay porn." If we were, we wouldn't be here. I will admit that I had the shock of my life, when, as a straight, heterosexual, woman, this movie about two cowboys in love affected me so deeply. And yes, part of this surprise was how beautiful and sexy this love (and sex) between two men could be. The movie has forever changed my views and life. So, when we speak about how sensual and "hot" their love scenes are, it's, to me, a celebration of the movie. We have a little fun with it! What's the harm?
The motel scene is one of my favorite's in the movie. Like Keren said, it is the intimacy that draws us in to that scene. These are two souls that belong together and are forever entertwined. it's a beautiful scene.
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I'm actually glad that the motel scene didn't show them having sex, only this part of lying peacefuly in each other's arms. we have enough fanfiction to satisfy our imagination considering this scene and others, and it's best to leave it at the fanfiction department, IMO. As far as the movie is concerned - a gentle touch, like Jack carressing Ennis's cheek in the "ain't no reins on this one" scene, says more about the feelings they share than any sex scene could ever say. it is more of these moments that I'd like to see between them.
On a more general note, we're all here because we have a deep love and respect for Ennis and Jack and their story, we can agree to disagree on certain points (after all, different people can't be expected to think and feel exactly the same on everything), as long as we remember that each one of us has his/her sensitivities and "soft spots", and we remember to respect that. I can definitely understand Patriot's POV and identify with it. everybody has a right to speak out if something bothers them, lets just try to discuss it with each other in a mature and open way and listen to each other's POV, and remember that mutual respect is the key here. that's all I'm saying.
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Thanks for your expressions all :^^)
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Keren - thank you for that. You've just voiced exactly what I was feeling about this debate. The tenderness and, yes, love shown in the SNIT and motel room scenes are so beautiful and it's certainly not a crime to wish there had been more of that. Everyone on here was captivated by the love story as well as by the tragedy - deep down I think we all wish Ennis and Jack could have had that sweet life, even if it would have meant the story meant so much less - and so it's totally natural that we want to see them happy together as much as possible.
I wouldn't want to see more sex scenes (I may have joked about it occasionally, but I reckon that what we saw was enough to let us all know how it was between them) but I would love to have seen a few more hugs or even kisses between them as the years passed. I know there's a deleted scene from the "look what I brought" meeting where the two of them are hugging each other - I still wonder why that was cut as it seems a shame that the last physical affection we see is in the motel room, 16 years before their last meeting (apart from the last night together of course)
Anyway, I think I've probably strayed off topic here, but hopefully it's relevant to the discussion that Patriot1 started ;)
I hate to pick faults with the movie,but that scene doesn't look right without the hug.I mean, Jack stands up as soon as he sees Ennis's truck, and his face breaks into a mega-watt smile, then Ennis gets out of the truck, also smiling from ear to ear, they're both just over-joyed to see each other...then apparently Jack sits back down, and waits for Ennis to stroll along and join him by the fire ??? Doesn't make sense to me :-\\
Anyway, back ot, I agree with the majority of posts here, I would much rather see Ennis and Jack sharing the afterglow in the motel scene, than actually having sex.Not that I would object particularly to another sex scene, but it wouldn't add anything to the film, and would just be there for gratuitous reasons. We know they had amazing sex together, but scenes like the motel show how much, much more there was to them being together :)
Another little moment I love is when Ennis says "I didn't think I'd ever hear from you again" and Jack replies what I guess is supposed to be "No", but he sort of murmurs it, so it comes out like "naah...mmm", I can't write it properly, but I'm sure you know what I mean ;)It's silly really,but I think it just sounds so sweet <^(
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I hate to pick faults with the movie,but that scene doesn't look right without the hug.I mean, Jack stands up as soon as he sees Ennis's truck, and his face breaks into a mega-watt smile, then Ennis gets out of the truck, also smiling from ear to ear, they're both just over-joyed to see each other...then apparently Jack sits back down, and waits for Ennis to stroll along and join him by the fire ??? Doesn't make sense to me :-\\
Anyway, back ot, I agree with the majority of posts here, I would much rather see Ennis and Jack sharing the afterglow in the motel scene, than actually having sex.Not that I would object particularly to another sex scene, but it wouldn't add anything to the film, and would just be there for gratuitous reasons. We know they had amazing sex together, but scenes like the motel show how much, much more there was to them being together :)
Another little moment I love is when Ennis says "I didn't think I'd ever hear from you again" and Jack replies what I guess is supposed to be "No", but he sort of murmurs it, so it comes out like "naah...mmm", I can't write it properly, but I'm sure you know what I mean ;)It's silly really,but I think it just sounds so sweet <^(
CrimsonSky, that is such an interesting point. I never thought about the editing in this reunion scene before--but you're totally right. I have to agree with many other people here in saying that the movie would never have had such a great impact on us if it had not contained these few, precious moments of tenderness between Ennis and Jack. Reading the screenplay can only fuel our desire to see more of the love between them--notice I didn't say sex!--because when they do express it, it makes all the pain and separation (almost) worthwhile. I guess that's why I've always loved the motel scene--after we have watched several minutes depicting their lives with wives and children, to see them practically igniting with their shared passion and then touching each other (yes, the arm stroking in the motel bed and YES, Jack stroking the side of Ennis's face by the fire) is like a reward for patience. A great gift.
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I agree with you that a touch, a hug, or a smile between Jack and Ennis means so much more than any sex scene. I would have loved to have seen more intimacy between them at their last meeting, akin to the motel scene. Sigh. <^(
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I agree with you that a touch, a hug, or a smile between Jack and Ennis means so much more than any sex scene. I would have loved to have seen more intimacy between them at their last meeting, akin to the motel scene. Sigh. <^(
Although we only see a mere glance of this, I do think there is such a scene: Ennis asleep, with his arms around Jack, on the last (?) night of their last meeting. In an earlier post, I had commented that an older friend of mine has marked this as the most beautiful scene in the entire movie (for him, at least). This is probably the closest hint we get of a comfortable intimacy shared between the two.
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The shared smile over their supposed exploits with Cassie and LaShawn then that shot of them asleep with Ennis's arm round Jack suggest just a close friendship, born of years of knowing each other and being comfortable in each other's company - which only makes the confrontation scen more poignant as well as unexpected.
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The shared smile over their supposed exploits with Cassie and LaShawn then that shot of them asleep with Ennis's arm round Jack suggest just a close friendship, born of years of knowing each other and being comfortable in each other's company - which only makes the confrontation scen more poignant as well as unexpected.
Very true...many sweet and many painful & unexpected surprises. What an emotional rollor coaster ride!
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Although we only see a mere glance of this, I do think there is such a scene: Ennis asleep, with his arms around Jack, on the last (?) night of their last meeting. In an earlier post, I had commented that an older friend of mine has marked this as the most beautiful scene in the entire movie (for him, at least). This is probably the closest hint we get of a comfortable intimacy shared between the two.
That is among my favorite moments in the movie. It does certainly give us that indication of everyday intimacy between the two of them. And I think this is important and meaningful because they only were together periodically. The glimpse of them sleeping in the tent suggests to me that they were not intermittant lovers, but instead real loves who could only be together on rare occasions.
Just as important to me is where it lies in the film. By that point we're seeing fatigue in their relationship, and necessarily so. Gone is the heady youthful excitement we're treated to earlier. There's a mid-1970's scene where Ennis and Jack are riding horses through a river and neither of them looks particularly happy or excited which gets to me every time. It shows me that age is starting to weigh on both men and their relationship. Also prior to this "sleeping tent scene" we've seen them rehash arguments on the central conflict of their relationship (how to be together) again and again. And the sleeping tent scene comes right after Ennis, with his silence, denies Jack's declaration "truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". He denies it by looking down and not responding. All this, at least in my mind, chips away at the vision of love I have for Ennis and Jack. Makes me fear it is being lost. The simple, brief scene of them sleeping so close together with an arm wrapping them together, shows me that there IS something deeper there that time and circumstance have not erroded. They still desperately want to be together. This three seconds of sleeping tent are critical to me.
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Although we only see a mere glance of this, I do think there is such a scene: Ennis asleep, with his arms around Jack, on the last (?) night of their last meeting. In an earlier post, I had commented that an older friend of mine has marked this as the most beautiful scene in the entire movie (for him, at least). This is probably the closest hint we get of a comfortable intimacy shared between the two.
That is among my favorite moments in the movie. It does certainly give us that indication of everyday intimacy between the two of them. And I think this is important and meaningful because they only were together periodically. The glimpse of them sleeping in the tent suggests to me that they were not intermittant lovers, but instead real loves who could only be together on rare occasions.
Just as important to me is where it lies in the film. By that point we're seeing fatigue in their relationship, and necessarily so. Gone is the heady youthful excitement we're treated to earlier. There's a mid-1970's scene where Ennis and Jack are riding horses through a river and neither of them looks particularly happy or excited which gets to me every time. It shows me that age is starting to weigh on both men and their relationship. Also prior to this "sleeping tent scene" we've seen them rehash arguments on the central conflict of their relationship (how to be together) again and again. And the sleeping tent scene comes right after Ennis, with his silence, denies Jack's declaration "truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". He denies it by looking down and not responding. All this, at least in my mind, chips away at the vision of love I have for Ennis and Jack. Makes me fear it is being lost. The simple, brief scene of them sleeping so close together with an arm wrapping them together, shows me that there IS something deeper there that time and circumstance have not erroded. They still desperately want to be together. This three seconds of sleeping tent are critical to me.
Very well said. I only really have one thing to add and that's to draw a parallel between the motel room scene and this final tent scene (to smoothly get us back on topic, you know ;))
When Jack talks of redlining it all the way and whispers "Old Brokeback got us good, don't it" in the motel, I think he's saying "I fell in love with you up there and nothing has changed". He asks Ennis how he feels and gets a mumbled "ahdunno" in response....but at that same time Ennis caresses his arm which to me shows that he does feel the same way as Jack, but he can't say it. Then, in their final meeting Jack tells Ennis "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" and, as dalemidex rightly says, Ennis doesn't respond....but then we see them in the tent and Ennis has his arm round Jack, holding him tenderly as he sleeps. Again, to me, this is Ennis's way of saying that he feels the same, once again responding with a physical show of love rather than a verbal one. Maybe that's why those three seconds are so important to me, too.
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Very well said. I only really have one thing to add and that's to draw a parallel between the motel room scene and this final tent scene (to smoothly get us back on topic, you know ;))
When Jack talks of redlining it all the way and whispers "Old Brokeback got us good, don't it" in the motel, I think he's saying "I fell in love with you up there and nothing has changed". He asks Ennis how he feels and gets a mumbled "ahdunno" in response....but at that same time Ennis caresses his arm which to me shows that he does feel the same way as Jack, but he can't say it. Then, in their final meeting Jack tells Ennis "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" and, as dalemidex rightly says, Ennis doesn't respond....but then we see them in the tent and Ennis has his arm round Jack, holding him tenderly as he sleeps. Again, to me, this is Ennis's way of saying that he feels the same, once again responding with a physical show of love rather than a verbal one. Maybe that's why those three seconds are so important to me, too.
NoReins, this is a great connection you've made, between Ennis's inability to vocalize his feelings, and his attempts to instead substitute a physical response. I love it!
Now I'm going to be very aware of this, not just in this quiet oasis of a scene but in all those Ennis moments of in-articulation. He does this both lovingly with Jack, and also in violence, like that punch the last day on Brokeback that they speak of. He often breaks out in violence when words fail him (kitchen scene with Alma for instance).
Part of why we all love this scene so much, I think, is because of the tenderness it shows between them ... and tenderness is often unspoken, simply expressed with the body. Just seeing Ennis lying back in Jack's arms, there is a vulnerability there that a man like Ennis would only show to someone he trusted and loved completely. As you pointed out, NoReins, Ennis speaks with his body more than his voice many times.
I'm actually glad that the motel scene didn't show them having sex, only this part of lying peacefully in each other's arms. we have enough fanfiction to satisfy our imagination considering this scene and others, and it's best to leave it at the fanfiction department, IMO. As far as the movie is concerned - a gentle touch, like Jack carressing Ennis's cheek in the "ain't no reins on this one" scene, says more about the feelings they share than any sex scene could ever say. it is more of these moments that I'd like to see between them.
keren_b, very true, we see their love in the gentle way they can be with each other, as well as the rough. These few moments being some of the sweetest.
It occurs to me, though, as we're all having our wish list of more moments we would have liked to have seen between them (myself definitely included!), that this is EXACTLY how it should be, how Ang Lee and Annie likely planned it.
If it's this bad for us, imagine what Jack and Ennis suffered? They lived for 20 years on only a few stolen moments, "Islands of time" as one great fanfic writer said, had to live on those in the in-between times. Best case scenario ... if it were a full 20 years, and a full 3 weeks per year, they would have had at most 420 days together.
420 days out of 20 YEARS to be with the other half of your soul.
Seems only right, doesn't it, that our desires for more go unfulfilled, leave us aching? I think in a way it brings us closer to the truth of their lives. (just MHO - and likely another way in which BBM is beyond brilliant)
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Although we only see a mere glance of this, I do think there is such a scene: Ennis asleep, with his arms around Jack, on the last (?) night of their last meeting. In an earlier post, I had commented that an older friend of mine has marked this as the most beautiful scene in the entire movie (for him, at least). This is probably the closest hint we get of a comfortable intimacy shared between the two.
That is among my favorite moments in the movie. It does certainly give us that indication of everyday intimacy between the two of them. And I think this is important and meaningful because they only were together periodically. The glimpse of them sleeping in the tent suggests to me that they were not intermittant lovers, but instead real loves who could only be together on rare occasions.
Just as important to me is where it lies in the film. By that point we're seeing fatigue in their relationship, and necessarily so. Gone is the heady youthful excitement we're treated to earlier. There's a mid-1970's scene where Ennis and Jack are riding horses through a river and neither of them looks particularly happy or excited which gets to me every time. It shows me that age is starting to weigh on both men and their relationship. Also prior to this "sleeping tent scene" we've seen them rehash arguments on the central conflict of their relationship (how to be together) again and again. And the sleeping tent scene comes right after Ennis, with his silence, denies Jack's declaration "truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". He denies it by looking down and not responding. All this, at least in my mind, chips away at the vision of love I have for Ennis and Jack. Makes me fear it is being lost. The simple, brief scene of them sleeping so close together with an arm wrapping them together, shows me that there IS something deeper there that time and circumstance have not erroded. They still desperately want to be together. This three seconds of sleeping tent are critical to me.
dalemidex, as a contrast to the motel room scene, there is a sadness here that is beyond grief. In the motel room scene, you know that they are comfortable in their love. In the last night embrace, you also sense that they are secure in their love. But your last paragraph hints that there is a world of difference between the two moments.
The motel room scene is a new beginning. The last meeting is the beginning of an end.
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Seems only right, doesn't it, that our desires for more go unfulfilled, leave us aching? I think in a way it brings us closer to the truth of their lives. (just MHO - and likely another way in which BBM is beyond brilliant)
So true. Achingly so.
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Seems only right, doesn't it, that our desires for more go unfulfilled, leave us aching? I think in a way it brings us closer to the truth of their lives. (just MHO - and likely another way in which BBM is beyond brilliant)
So true. Achingly so.
The movie left us wanting more time for Jack and Ennis, just like they must have felt. Brilliant but tragic. :\'(
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The movie left us wanting more time for Jack and Ennis, just like they must have felt. Brilliant but tragic. :\'(
You are so right here. We feel their pain, their lack of time together.
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Personally I wouldn't object more intimate scenes like the motel room scene. no, I'm not asking for another FNIT, I don't expect to see them screwing (pardon my bluntness) throughout the whole film, I guess that would really be tasteless. But a scene like the motel room - you don't see them having sex, you see them in a rare moment of closeness and intimacy, you see the deep love they share with each other. you see that in their smiles, in the way Jack holds Ennis and whispers into his hair, in the way Ennis strokes Jack's arm. that's totally beautifull and there's no harm in wanting a few more moments like that, I think... because after the reunion we barely see any signs of affection on their part, we see them riding and talking and arguing but we hardly see them show affection for each other, with the exeption of the last night when we see them sleeping and Ennis has his arm around Jack. one can almost get the feeling that they really are just fishing buddies, and we know they're so much more. I'd love to see more moments of love, tenderness, happiness between them - it doesn't have to be sex. but something like the motel room scene, when they're just lying in each other's arms and you know that both of them are so happy and peacefull now, and you can feel their love and their joy fill your heart - yeah, I definitelly wouldn't mind seeing more of that. we've all cried so much over their tragedy, it's only natural we'd want to share their few moments of bliss.
Yes, Keren, I really would have loved to see more intimacy between them when they were older -- it wouldn't have had to be an overt sex scene, but like the motel scene, as you said. Unfortunately, aside from that one sleeping scene in the tent, in the scenes when they're older mostly what we see is their arguing. I would have loved to have seen more affection...
kathy
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To answer your question Patriot...... yes I have rented porn movies, and no, it was not as satisfying as Jack and Ennis in
the intimate scenes of this movie !
I agree. "Gay porn" is usually not "beautiful gay love story." We love the sex in BBM not just because it's two hot guys, but because of the beauty of their love...
kathy
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On a more general note, we're all here because we have a deep love and respect for Ennis and Jack and their story, we can agree to disagree on certain points (after all, different people can't be expected to think and feel exactly the same on everything), as long as we remember that each one of us has his/her sensitivities and "soft spots", and we remember to respect that. I can definitely understand Patriot's POV and identify with it. everybody has a right to speak out if something bothers them, lets just try to discuss it with each other in a mature and open way and listen to each other's POV, and remember that mutual respect is the key here. that's all I'm saying.
Good words, Keren. And I think we can't help but find some differences in feelings here, being men and women, gay and straight, and all the other permutations. And that's one thing I love about ennisjack.com.
Everyone has their own take on what this story means to them. I think if I were a lesbian and the movie was about two women, and all these guys (especially straight guys) were here saying, "hot damn, gimme more of that hot gal-sex," I might say, "Go to a stripper bar, guys. This is a monumental love story and you're only thinking about how hot these babes are." So I can relate to Patriot's post in that way.
It's a new thing to some women here to find themselves so moved by a love story between men, and because Ennis and Jack are indeed so "hot," well hey -- we certainly like to celebrate their beauty. And having some fun in some of these threads seems essential. There is a lot of serious discussion here on this forum, and we all can use some craziness sometimes. Having some fun with this story and these characters is certainly done with love... This story is about love and sex, and about "different" love and sex (or so they thought of it at the time), and of course we're going to talk about love and sex...
kathy
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That is among my favorite moments in the movie. It does certainly give us that indication of everyday intimacy between the two of them. And I think this is important and meaningful because they only were together periodically. The glimpse of them sleeping in the tent suggests to me that they were not intermittant lovers, but instead real loves who could only be together on rare occasions.
Just as important to me is where it lies in the film. By that point we're seeing fatigue in their relationship, and necessarily so. Gone is the heady youthful excitement we're treated to earlier. There's a mid-1970's scene where Ennis and Jack are riding horses through a river and neither of them looks particularly happy or excited which gets to me every time. It shows me that age is starting to weigh on both men and their relationship. Also prior to this "sleeping tent scene" we've seen them rehash arguments on the central conflict of their relationship (how to be together) again and again. And the sleeping tent scene comes right after Ennis, with his silence, denies Jack's declaration "truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". He denies it by looking down and not responding. All this, at least in my mind, chips away at the vision of love I have for Ennis and Jack. Makes me fear it is being lost. The simple, brief scene of them sleeping so close together with an arm wrapping them together, shows me that there IS something deeper there that time and circumstance have not erroded. They still desperately want to be together. This three seconds of sleeping tent are critical to me.
Oh, you are so right. As I just said in another post, mostly what we saw in their later years together was arguing, not much affection shown. But I like how you've expressed this. We see scenes such as their riding horses through the river, where they don't look happy at all (and that always pains me, also) but that makes the sleeping in the tent scene all the more important, to show us...what you said so eloquently above.
kathy
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I always think about the book when it comes to the "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"
THere, Ennis put his arm around Jack, and pulled him close . I so wish Ang would have put this in
the movie, but I guess the arm over Jack in the tent that night was suppose to make up for that.
I don't know.
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NoReins, this is a great connection you've made, between Ennis's inability to vocalize his feelings, and his attempts to instead substitute a physical response. I love it!
Now I'm going to be very aware of this, not just in this quiet oasis of a scene but in all those Ennis moments of in-articulation. He does this both lovingly with Jack, and also in violence, like that punch the last day on Brokeback that they speak of. He often breaks out in violence when words fail him (kitchen scene with Alma for instance).
Part of why we all love this scene so much, I think, is because of the tenderness it shows between them ... and tenderness is often unspoken, simply expressed with the body. Just seeing Ennis lying back in Jack's arms, there is a vulnerability there that a man like Ennis would only show to someone he trusted and loved completely. As you pointed out, NoReins, Ennis speaks with his body more than his voice many times.
This discussion is so beautiful, I feel myself all welling up with emotion again (not that isn't pretty much a constant state). I love what you said about Ennis expressing himself physically, not verbally -- and there's got to be a whole lot more instances of this throughout the movie. But especially, the motel scene, as you said: Ennis lying like that in Jack's arms -- this is an extraordinary show of trust and love for a man like Ennis. So beautiful.
Tons of other examples, but they shouldn't necessarily go here in this thread. Such as Ennis shooting the elk because Jack's sick o' beans... More later :)
kathy
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...
The motel room scene is a new beginning. The last meeting is the beginning of an end.
Thanks a lot, tpe. I'm at my desk at work :\'(
kathy
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dalemidex, as a contrast to the motel room scene, there is a sadness here that is beyond grief. In the motel room scene, you know that they are comfortable in their love. In the last night embrace, you also sense that they are secure in their love. But your last paragraph hints that there is a world of difference between the two moments.
The motel room scene is a new beginning. The last meeting is the beginning of an end.
So very true...and very sad. :(
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That is among my favorite moments in the movie. It does certainly give us that indication of everyday intimacy between the two of them. And I think this is important and meaningful because they only were together periodically. The glimpse of them sleeping in the tent suggests to me that they were not intermittant lovers, but instead real loves who could only be together on rare occasions.
Just as important to me is where it lies in the film. By that point we're seeing fatigue in their relationship, and necessarily so. Gone is the heady youthful excitement we're treated to earlier. There's a mid-1970's scene where Ennis and Jack are riding horses through a river and neither of them looks particularly happy or excited which gets to me every time. It shows me that age is starting to weigh on both men and their relationship. Also prior to this "sleeping tent scene" we've seen them rehash arguments on the central conflict of their relationship (how to be together) again and again. And the sleeping tent scene comes right after Ennis, with his silence, denies Jack's declaration "truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". He denies it by looking down and not responding. All this, at least in my mind, chips away at the vision of love I have for Ennis and Jack. Makes me fear it is being lost. The simple, brief scene of them sleeping so close together with an arm wrapping them together, shows me that there IS something deeper there that time and circumstance have not erroded. They still desperately want to be together. This three seconds of sleeping tent are critical to me.
Oh, you are so right. As I just said in another post, mostly what we saw in their later years together was arguing, not much affection shown. But I like how you've expressed this. We see scenes such as their riding horses through the river, where they don't look happy at all (and that always pains me, also) but that makes the sleeping in the tent scene all the more important, to show us...what you said so eloquently above.
kathy
Oh. :\'(
I think I just realized that the last hug, the last conscious affection (since the sleeping arm thing seems to be unconscious) we see is the hug after Ennis's divorce.
Wow. That makes that scene even more of a turning point in the relationship. And Ennis pulled away, and was making sure nobody saw... And that was that.
Of course, they certainly hugged (and more) later in their relationship, but Lee has shut us out of seeing such moments. As Keren pointed out--there is a palpable absence of a hug after "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
In this way, we don't just realize the creeping chill in their relationship; we actually experience it (probably without even knowing it).
sigh.
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But the way they're shown sleeping close together, Ennis's arm round Jack, also indicates that at least unconsciously they stil love each other - the waking world may be too complex and difficult, but things are simpler in the sleeping one. Perhaps what they've shared, even if they're never acknowledged it, is a dream.
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But the way they're shown sleeping close together, Ennis's arm round Jack, also indicates that at least unconsciously they stil love each other - the waking world may be too complex and difficult, but things are simpler in the sleeping one. Perhaps what they've shared, even if they're never acknowledged it, is a dream.
oh, yes, Welshy, and didn't the story start and end with a dream sequence? If Ennis is lucky, dreams of jack will stoke him through the day...
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I saw this question somewere,not sure..
After the blissfull night in the motel,what does Ennis take from the medicine cabinet in his house before he goes to the Mountains.....he has the tooth brush in his mouth already...so...was it vaseline?? :*(
Inquiring minds like to know... :s)
I always assumed it was toothpaste.....taking vaseline from the cabinet right under Alma's nose would have been a little too obvious I think.
I think Jack would have taken care of the, ahem, lubrication before his trip to see Ennis anyway :-[
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I guess that's why I've always loved the motel scene--after we have watched several minutes depicting their lives with wives and children, to see them practically igniting with their shared passion and then touching each other (yes, the arm stroking in the motel bed and YES, Jack stroking the side of Ennis's face by the fire) is like a reward for patience. A great gift.
I agree Shieldmaid, and I think it is a reward - imagine how hard it must have been for both of them to be separated for 4 years, having to live out hollow and empty lives that were a world away from the love they found on Brokeback. To have found each other again is probably the greatest reward they could have been given.
This is a fascinating thread, and I love reading everyone's comments, I think we all share the same feelings about the scene. Everyone has expressed a lot of things that I would have said myself. I adore the way they are lying together, so relaxed and content, almost as if 4 years had not happened. When Ennis says "didnt think I'd hear from you again" (and does that gorgeous arm rubbing thing he does!) and Jack replies in that lovely way of his (someone else has mentioned this earlier....). I took that to mean Jack was saying "I always knew I'd see you again". I always wonder what Ennis is thinking when Jack tells him about going back to Brokeback the following summer, in the hope that Ennis would be there. You can tell Ennis is listening intently to what Jack is saying, but who knows what he is thinking. I wonder if he is thinking "I wish I'd gone back there too". :\'( :\'(
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I don't think anyone here has an intention to reduce BBM to anything, least of all a porn film... although I get your point patriot, especially after reading the "horniest Jake scene" thread (you can really think we're talking about porn scenes when you read some of the posts...). I personally would be deeply disappointed if someone told me that the movie's highlight for them was to watch Jake and Heath making out, because that would mean they missed the whole point. This movie is so much more than just two guys going at each other and I'm sure all the members of ennisjack.com agree with that, so I take most of these posts as people making jokes and fooling around a little, I don't think that this is really the way people here view BBM.
Personally I wouldn't object more intimate scenes like the motel room scene. no, I'm not asking for another FNIT, I don't expect to see them screwing (pardon my bluntness) throughout the whole film, I guess that would really be tasteless. But a scene like the motel room - you don't see them having sex, you see them in a rare moment of closeness and intimacy, you see the deep love they share with each other. you see that in their smiles, in the way Jack holds Ennis and whispers into his hair, in the way Ennis strokes Jack's arm. that's totally beautifull and there's no harm in wanting a few more moments like that, I think... because after the reunion we barely see any signs of affection on their part, we see them riding and talking and arguing but we hardly see them show affection for each other, with the exeption of the last night when we see them sleeping and Ennis has his arm around Jack. one can almost get the feeling that they really are just fishing buddies, and we know they're so much more. I'd love to see more moments of love, tenderness, happiness between them - it doesn't have to be sex. but something like the motel room scene, when they're just lying in each other's arms and you know that both of them are so happy and peacefull now, and you can feel their love and their joy fill your heart - yeah, I definitelly wouldn't mind seeing more of that. we've all cried so much over their tragedy, it's only natural we'd want to share their few moments of bliss.
I quote your whole post, dear keren_b, cos you have said my and many othersŽ thoughts and feelings about this scene so beautifully
and compact way. And of course many other have also said beautiful and important things. Thank for you all!
*o) Yes, I have seen some gay porn, but it can be very boring, and I donŽt want to see Jack and Ennis having raw sex. ItŽs nobodyŽs business but theirs.
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Oh. :\'(
I think I just realized that the last hug, the last conscious affection (since the sleeping arm thing seems to be unconscious) we see is the hug after Ennis's divorce.
Wow. That makes that scene even more of a turning point in the relationship. And Ennis pulled away, and was making sure nobody saw... And that was that.
Of course, they certainly hugged (and more) later in their relationship, but Lee has shut us out of seeing such moments. As Keren pointed out--there is a palpable absence of a hug after "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
In this way, we don't just realize the creeping chill in their relationship; we actually experience it (probably without even knowing it).
sigh.
I am feeling depressed now... :\'( This post belongs on PBS thread. :-\\
Sometimes I go for a long time looking mostly at the beauty and strength of their love, and I have joy (and I have fun like with Jakelicks and Heath Baby madness, or the butt thread, what have you)...but then...I can't be in denial about 1) this erosion, the "creeping chill" as you said, Edgar, in their relationship; then 2) the tragic end of Jack, the heartbreaking place we last see Ennis...
kathy
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Which means that the dozy embrace is the last uncomplicated moment, and the otel embrace the last close and affectionate one, and everything after that's moving away. As someone I know once said of a mutual acquaintance, "If happiness is a point, he's been moving further away from it all his life". Is this what Jack and Ennis do after the high point of the reunion?
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Oh. :'(
I think I just realized that the last hug, the last conscious affection (since the sleeping arm thing seems to be unconscious) we see is the hug after Ennis's divorce.
Wow. That makes that scene even more of a turning point in the relationship. And Ennis pulled away, and was making sure nobody saw... And that was that.
Of course, they certainly hugged (and more) later in their relationship, but Lee has shut us out of seeing such moments. As Keren pointed out--there is a palpable absence of a hug after "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
In this way, we don't just realize the creeping chill in their relationship; we actually experience it (probably without even knowing it).
sigh.
I am feeling depressed now... :'( This post belongs on PBS thread. :-\
Sometimes I go for a long time looking mostly at the beauty and strength of their love, and I have joy (and I have fun like with Jakelicks and Heath Baby madness, or the butt thread, what have you)...but then...I can't be in denial about 1) this erosion, the "creeping chill" as you said, Edgar, in their relationship; then 2) the tragic end of Jack, the heartbreaking place we last see Ennis...
kathy
I'm not sure I agree that there was a "creeping chill" in their relationship at the end. To me, I think they loved each other more than ever; they were both just frustrated and torn (especially Jack, but Ennis, too) on how their lives how panned out. I think Jack's comment about "missing you so much I can hardly stand it" and Ennis' jealousy over Mexico and declaration that he "couldn't stand it anymore" shows to me that they were still deeply in love and committed to each other. The pain and burden of being apart was weighing more heavily than ever. I like to think of the last meeting as a turning point for them, especially Ennis, if Jack had lived. Just my opinion, though. Let me know if I'm interpreting your "creeping chill" comment wrong. :)
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I'm not sure I agree that there was a "creeping chill" in their relationship at the end. To me, I think they loved each other more than ever; they were both just frustrated and torn (especially Jack, but Ennis, too) on how their lives how panned out. I think Jack's comment about "missing you so much I can hardly stand it" and Ennis' jealousy over Mexico and declaration that he "couldn't stand it anymore" shows to me that they were still deeply in love and committed to each other. The pain and burden of being apart was weighing more heavily than ever. I like to think of the last meeting as a turning point for them, especially Ennis, if Jack had lived. Just my opinion, though. Let me know if I'm interpreting your "creeping chill" comment wrong. :)
I'm with you on this one stacp. A "creeping chill" in their relationship would have stopped Jack from saying he missed Ennis so much, I reckon.
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Hard to say, from my point of view. Very telling is the use of the word "almost" in the short story: "they torqued things almost to where they had been..." It signifies some change -- probably not for the better. Perhaps the reference to "creeping chill" derives from this ambiguity.
Perhaps we are now a bit OOT? This would make a wonderful thread. :)
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Which means that the dozy embrace is the last uncomplicated moment, and the otel embrace the last close and affectionate one, and everything after that's moving away. As someone I know once said of a mutual acquaintance, "If happiness is a point, he's been moving further away from it all his life". Is this what Jack and Ennis do after the high point of the reunion?
Wow.
Welchwitch, that sums up the feels we get after this scene, perfectly, doesn't it? From this point right up until the divorce misunderstanding, their meetings seem to have an innocent joy about them, but there is still the silent knowledge that they are living within boundaries. Their being together again is so new and exciting to them, they can ignore the fences around their relationship for a while.
After the divorce scene - and Mexico - well, we can see them spiraling slowly further and further away from the contentment of the Siesta Motel. I think that's why after Ennis's divorce it gets especially painful to watch. Our innocence, our hope for them becomes bruised then, too. Can't pretend anymore that things will likely work themselves out.
Fishing trips a couple of times a year up in the mountains; just not enough landscape for a love this large.
Yet somehow within the walls of that small motel room they found room to really be with each other, for a brief time.
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Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further *o), I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)
Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.
Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first. :^^) However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.
After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.
And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.
I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.
Okay. Please don't ^^) me, tpe.
;)
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Marlowe's " infinite riches in a little room", perhaps, or Donne's notion of the bed he shares with his mistress as the centre of the universe, containing everything that exists as they are the world.
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Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further *o), I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)
snip ...
I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.
Okay. Please don't ^^) me, tpe.
;)
edgar ... imminently worthy of it's own thread ... or a throw down! ;D ;D
I do see your point(s), it's what makes BBM more painful to watch with each passing minute after "Aguirre says to bring'em down". Whether it's self-perservation, frustration, harsh reality ... the warmth of their love doesn't lessen, I think, but the relationship they try to maintain does seem to suffer a chill, so little to feed it over the years. :-\\
It has been referred to (gently) as a "slow erosion" before (a la Annie's words for Ennis's and Alma's crumbling relationship) but your creeping chill analogy works, too. I don't know if the motel scene computes for me as a "chill" though; it has the heat of two bodies clinging tight in the dark, Ennis's words sound more of resignation and regret to me, rather than chill ... or it did before, next time I see it, who knows ?? My perspections often change with each viewing, depending on the discussions here that I've read ... :P
Now .. go hide before tpe shows up! ;)
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Marlowe's " infinite riches in a little room", perhaps, or Donne's notion of the bed he shares with his mistress as the centre of the universe, containing everything that exists as they are the world.
I love that, welchwitch ... the notion that "the bed Jack and Ennis share is the centre of the universe, containing everything that exists as they are the world."
<^(
Someone with art talent must creat an image of them together in the motel bed with that caption underneath ... :(
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Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further *o), I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)
Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.
Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first. :^^) However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.
After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.
And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.
I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.
Okay. Please don't ^^) me, tpe.
;)
Edgar, thank you for that thoughtful explaination. I agree with what your saying about the post-divorce. I think Jack lets a little hope die after he realizes it wasn't Alma that was holding Ennis back from being with Jack but it was Ennis himself. I do think Jack starts to realize that it will never be between he and Ennis the way he wants it to be; aka, "the sweet life." I agree with MississaugRed above that their love never chilled, but the relationship was strained at the end. Again, thanks for elaborating. I learn so much from everyone here.
Now, back OT. Hey, what about those glistening bodies in that motel bed? <^(
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Now, back OT. Hey, what about those glistening bodies in that motel bed? <^(
Tell you what - you really made me smile with that. Needed to, after reading all the sad posts on here. :t)
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Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further *o), I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)
Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.
Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first. :^^) However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.
After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.
And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.
I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.
Okay. Please don't ^^) me, tpe.
;)
Edgar I thought this was a very well thought-out and intelligently argued point you were making, but I dont necessarily agree! ~)
I think the words "creeping chill" have a sinsiter overtone for me, and I dont see Ennis and Jack's relationship as being anything other than difficult, secretive and passionate. It was Ennis' inability to face his own truth - that he was in love with Jack Twist - that kept the relationship at a close distance for 20 years, but there was always love. And I certainly didnt think Jack using the word "cold" during their final meeting meant anything other than the obvious meaning...I dont think there was any hidden undertones, apart from the connection to Mexico.
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Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further *o), I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)
Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.
Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first. :^^) However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.
After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.
And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.
I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.
Okay. Please don't ^^) me, tpe.
;)
I agree Edgar...Beautifully thought out.
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I'm not sure I agree that there was a "creeping chill" in their relationship at the end. To me, I think they loved each other more than ever; they were both just frustrated and torn (especially Jack, but Ennis, too) on how their lives how panned out. I think Jack's comment about "missing you so much I can hardly stand it" and Ennis' jealousy over Mexico and declaration that he "couldn't stand it anymore" shows to me that they were still deeply in love and committed to each other. The pain and burden of being apart was weighing more heavily than ever. I like to think of the last meeting as a turning point for them, especially Ennis, if Jack had lived. Just my opinion, though. Let me know if I'm interpreting your "creeping chill" comment wrong. :)
I'll let edgar speak for himself of course regarding the "creeping chill," but it does seem we see some depression in those last meetings, besides seeing some of the passion so deep it's hurting them both. In any event, we all look at the same scene and our minds and hearts pick out something relevant to our own lives and color our interpretations.
A Realist myself yet with Dreamer and Romantic rising, I love seeing that scene, as you say, stacp, as a turning point, if Jack had lived. (And my favorite fanfic does exactly that.) I do see their love so strong there -- and it's a tremendously moving scene -- but I can see that things could perhaps have taken a downward turn after that, though I'd rather think it could have been the bottom point from which they had to fix it, since Ennis couldn't stand it anymore.
kathy
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While I really like your post, edgar, I have to say that I don't think Ennis is totally conscious of giving off the chill. I really don't think he realizes he can possibly do anything other than what he does. He refuses to turn his back on his kids because he loves them and sees them as his responsibility. He just doesn't even see the possibility that he and Jack could ever live together. He's not a man of vision and dreams lilke Jack. He sees himself as stuck. That comes out in their final scene together, but it is present throughout the movie. Ennis can't be anything but what he is. If that is cold, and hurtful to Jack, or to Alma, or to Cassie, it's just who Ennis is. To me, that is part of the allure of Ennis. He's a man to pity, but one we have to understand as tipical of his time and place and upbringing. Had he been any different, the story would have been entirely different.
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Which means that the dozy embrace is the last uncomplicated moment, and the otel embrace the last close and affectionate one, and everything after that's moving away. As someone I know once said of a mutual acquaintance, "If happiness is a point, he's been moving further away from it all his life". Is this what Jack and Ennis do after the high point of the reunion?
Wow.
Welchwitch, that sums up the feels we get after this scene, perfectly, doesn't it? From this point right up until the divorce misunderstanding, their meetings seem to have an innocent joy about them, but there is still the silent knowledge that they are living within boundaries. Their being together again is so new and exciting to them, they can ignore the fences around their relationship for a while.
After the divorce scene - and Mexico - well, we can see them spiraling slowly further and further away from the contentment of the Siesta Motel. I think that's why after Ennis's divorce it gets especially painful to watch. Our innocence, our hope for them becomes bruised then, too. Can't pretend anymore that things will likely work themselves out.
Fishing trips a couple of times a year up in the mountains; just not enough landscape for a love this large.
Yet somehow within the walls of that small motel room they found room to really be with each other, for a brief time.
Oh jeez...Your words are most beautiful, and heartbreaking. Well, at least it's a tragedy as "beautiful" as the love is beautiful.
For me, the moving-away starts in the motel room with Ennis's "reckon there's nothing we can do..." After such a brief coming-together-again...
kathy
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Edgar, thank you for that thoughtful explaination. I agree with what your saying about the post-divorce. I think Jack lets a little hope die after he realizes it wasn't Alma that was holding Ennis back from being with Jack but it was Ennis himself. I do think Jack starts to realize that it will never be between he and Ennis the way he wants it to be; aka, "the sweet life." I agree with MississaugRed above that their love never chilled, but the relationship was strained at the end. Again, thanks for elaborating. I learn so much from everyone here.
Now, back OT. Hey, what about those glistening bodies in that motel bed? <^(
Yes, back to Jack's sweet smile into Ennis's sweet damp curls, to afterglow and satiation (momentary)...but seriously, these discussions are so meaningful to me, also. I love the perceptive people we have here, and many perspectives. Mine can tend to be, like yours Mississauga, transmutable...and that's the richness of this story and movie.
kathy
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For me, the moving-away starts in the motel room with Ennis's "reckon there's nothing we can do..." After such a brief coming-together-again...
Ennis's "I doubt there's nothing we can do" is the same as "I'll stick with beans". it's a typical Ennis response. he's always sticking with the status quo, no matter how miserable it makes him, unable to see his possibilities for happiness. Jack is the dreamer, Ennis doesn't dare to dream. he doesn't know how. I agree with lamusica he's not being cold intentionaly, that's just who Ennis is, he's too emotioanlly inhibited. poor Ennis, my heart goes out for him.
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I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or unconsciously.
Okay. Please don't ^^) me, tpe.
;)
I think the words "creeping chill" have a sinister overtone for me, and I don't see Ennis and Jack's relationship as being anything other than difficult, secretive and passionate. It was Ennis' inability to face his own truth - that he was in love with Jack Twist - that kept the relationship at a close distance for 20 years, but there was always love. And I certainly didn't think Jack using the word "cold" during their final meeting meant anything other than the obvious meaning...I dint think there was any hidden undertones, apart from the connection to Mexico.
*o) I know ... but these are both two excellent points, which goes back (AGAIN) to the brilliance of BBM, IMHO.
Although Jack's use of the word cold was likely simply referring to the weather conditions they always endure, there's still the subliminal side of the film making and story telling to consider. I can easily see how the word "cold" in this instance could have been intended, by Ang, by Annie, to also symbolize the deteriorating conditions of their relationship. The relationship, not their love, if we can be allowed to separate the two for a moment ..
We can of course just take any of their words at face value, but great film-makers and storytellers bury much under the surface. They imbue inanimate objects with intense emotional connection (i.e. the shirts) and they give hidden meaning to simple actions (Ennis rubbing Jack's arm in the motel room scene conveys more than just a need for tactile connection, it speaks words of love that Ennis can't vocalize).
There are hundreds of examples we've all picked up on in BBM during various discussions. Even though they talk to each other in the motel room as much as we ever see any other time, it's still the eyes and the body language that speaks loudest. They way they are holding tight to each other before being tossed out into the cold world again.
Sorry for being slightly OT, but I came constantly amazed at how rich this story is ... and at how much more you all teach me about it still. <^(
Just my 20 cents (I LaShawn too much for just 2!) ;D
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There's the "left out in the cold" idea of being outside things - they're outsiders in a homophobic society, outsiders in their marriages. Ttheir meetings take place outside, and often on the cold, as they were, at the end, in the cold of the snow on Brokeback. That snow came and went quickly but Aguirre, theri Cassandra, says there's a worse one coming, and he's right. Jack says near the end "Going to snow tonight for sure" ; whether he's right or not about literal snow, after this the coldness between them appears. The snow pushed them off the mountain after their first summer and was I think indicative of things to come.
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It also occurs to me ( too hot to think quickly) that heat is associated with passion. In FNIT it was the cold that brought them together - Ennis is literally out in the cold till Jack calls him in; they keep each other warm literally and metaphorically. Then in the motel scene they're shown sweaty and hot, but we never see them like that again.
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For me, the moving-away starts in the motel room with Ennis's "reckon there's nothing we can do..." After such a brief coming-together-again...
Ennis's "I doubt there's nothing we can do" is the same as "I'll stick with beans". it's a typical Ennis response. he's always sticking with the status quo, no matter how miserable it makes him, unable to see his possibilities for happiness. Jack is the dreamer, Ennis doesn't dare to dream. he doesn't know how. I agree with lamusica he's not being cold intentionaly, that's just who Ennis is, he's too emotioanlly inhibited. poor Ennis, my heart goes out for him.
Oh I'm so glad you said that, keren -- I see now how that statement of Ennis's is just Ennis being Ennis, sticking with beans.
And as we were talking bout over in horniest Jack thread, after this motel room scene, we see Ennis not just sticking with beans in any event -- hightailing it inside the apt to gather up his things and get out in the wilds with Jack.
kathy
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*o) I know ... but these are both two excellent points, which goes back (AGAIN) to the brilliance of BBM, IMHO.
Although Jack's use of the word cold was likely simply referring to the weather conditions they always endure, there's still the subliminal side of the film making and story telling to consider. I can easily see how the word "cold" in this instance could have been intended, by Ang, by Annie, to also symbolize the deteriorating conditions of their relationship. The relationship, not their love, if we can be allowed to separate the two for a moment ..
We can of course just take any of their words at face value, but great film-makers and storytellers bury much under the surface. They imbue inanimate objects with intense emotional connection (i.e. the shirts) and they give hidden meaning to simple actions (Ennis rubbing Jack's arm in the motel room scene conveys more than just a need for tactile connection, it speaks words of love that Ennis can't vocalize).
There are hundreds of examples we've all picked up on in BBM during various discussions. Even though they talk to each other in the motel room as much as we ever see any other time, it's still the eyes and the body language that speaks loudest. They way they are holding tight to each other before being tossed out into the cold world again.
Sorry for being slightly OT, but I came constantly amazed at how rich this story is ... and at how much more you all teach me about it still. <^(
Just my 20 cents (I LaShawn too much for just 2!) ;D
I mainly wanted to comment on what I bolded above. I very often find it's appropriate or necessary to make that distinction, between their love, and their relationship. That's why we can speak of the "erosion" of their relationship -- but certainly not of their love.
I shouldn't be LaShawing, especial OT, either, but it seems we all grant that every single word and act and scene in this story and movie are purposeful. Not just face value. Though who knows, we may find something that's just there, a cigar that's just a cigar.
Which reminds me, I have a dialogue question -- have to go find out where to ask it.
kathy
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The power of this scene (beyond the sexual idea) is all that happen inside the characters... it's only love sincere and inocent, who don't want a hug in the bed or a sweet words like a whisper in the ear... so simple as complex but over all the adjectives BEAUTIFUL
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There's the "left out in the cold" idea of being outside things - they're outsiders in a homophobic society, outsiders in their marriages. Ttheir meetings take place outside, and often on the cold, as they were, at the end, in the cold of the snow on Brokeback. That snow came and went quickly but Aguirre, theri Cassandra, says there's a worse one coming, and he's right. Jack says near the end "Going to snow tonight for sure" ; whether he's right or not about literal snow, after this the coldness between them appears. The snow pushed them off the mountain after their first summer and was I think indicative of things to come.
A bit OT, but I always thought the snow and an impending storm was just an excuse that Mr Aguirre used to spite them and break up the whole Ennis & Jack thing he witnessed happening. Remember Ennis pointing out that the snow didn't even stick...?
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There was supposed to be a bigger storm coming soon - Agurre was probably more concerned about the sheep's survival. Another biy of symbolism?
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Somehow I still get the sense that Aguirre used the storm as an excuse to play god and break them up...maybe he thought that their "messing around" was going to cause him more loss and used the impending storm as an excuse instead of confronting them about what he saw...sorry WAY *o)
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Somehow I still get the sense that Aguirre used the storm as an excuse to play god and break them up...maybe he thought that their "messing around" was going to cause him more loss and used the impending storm as an excuse instead of confronting them about what he saw...sorry WAY *o)
That is the way I see it also gimmejack. Aguirre saw no reason to pay the boys so they could attend to each other instead of the sheep. This feeling, for me, was reinforced when Aguirre told Jack, "Twist, you guys wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs baby-sit the sheep while you stemmed the rose."
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Somehow I still get the sense that Aguirre used the storm as an excuse to play god and break them up...maybe he thought that their "messing around" was going to cause him more loss and used the impending storm as an excuse instead of confronting them about what he saw...sorry WAY *o)
That is the way I see it also gimmejack. Aguirre saw no reason to pay the boys so they could attend to each other instead of the sheep. This feeling, for me, was reinforced when Aguirre told Jack, "Twist, you guys wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs baby-sit the sheep while you stemmed the rose."
EXACTLY...TY, always nice to know i'm not alone in my opinion
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I think if Aguirre'd felt that stronly he's have brought them down at one - didn't need an excuse. He was employing them. The "stemming the rose" is just a way of teling Jack he knows about them and why he won't employ him the next year. Aguirre's a nasty little man who likes having power over people - he knows he can frighten Jack and does it.
He leaves the sheep and the two of them up there until there's a risk to the sheep - his first concern is making money and he says he wants fewer losses than he had the year before.
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I love the afterglow motel scene. Jack and Ennis really felt comfortable with each other... too bad that they couln't/didn't really talk about thier love and attraction to each other... :( :( :(
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When you think of it, it's the only scene where they're together in the warmth and comfort of a room and the sex is for pleasure, not even remotely as a way of keeping warm, which is what it at first seems in FNIT.
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Are you sayin that FNIT happend because our boys got a little chilly?
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Are you sayin that FNIT happend because our boys got a little chilly?
That is the way I understood it also. :8
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Well, there was building chemistry between the two. If Jack hadn't of grabbed Ennis's hand and placed it 'own himself' it would of probably happened anyway. It was fate. I think being drunk helped the situation, but they definitly had a thing for each other. One way or another, Ennis was going to get jack on all fours. ;)
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I think the drinking had more to do with it than the chill. The inclination was already there, but the drinking loosened the inhibitions and voila!
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God -- this is one of the most absolutely beautiful scenes in any movie ever! (Except for the frames right before, the frames right after, the SNIT, the...
kathy
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This picture always makes me well up.....I think it's the sad look on Ennis' face. Jack's just asked him "what are we gonna do now" and Ennis is facing up to the truth that he can't do what he wants to do so badly. There's such a sharp contrast between this and the shot a couple of seconds earlier where he's got that little half smile on his face after Jack tells him he redlined it all the way :\'(
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The way they're holding on to each other is so sweet... I wish they could stay like this forever
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God -- this is one of the most absolutely beautiful scenes in any movie ever! (Except for the frames right before, the frames right after, the SNIT, the...
kathy
I second that! The whole damn movie is beautiful...painful but beautiful.
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GOD!!!!!! they both are so sexy on this pic, a motel, a bed, cigars and one each other what can more they need <^( <^( <^(
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The way they're holding on to each other is so sweet... I wish they could stay like this forever
I wish somebody would hold me like that.
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The way they're holding on to each other is so sweet... I wish they could stay like this forever
I wish somebody would hold me like that.
AMEN Greenfrog. I would even forgo what happened before this.
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How many times have I watched this scene? UH OH ! lost count, gotta start over.
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<^( It's the "Ol Brokeback got us good" that does it for me. Jack daring to voice it for them both. The way he says it. <^( If only...
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<^( It's the "Ol Brokeback got us good" that does it for me. Jack daring to voice it for them both. The way he says it. <^( If only...
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The way they're holding on to each other is so sweet... I wish they could stay like this forever
I wish somebody would hold me like that.
Give me a twenty >:D anyway, i love the picture, poor Ennis looks sad (whats new?) but he looks heart broken, and the way his eyes gleasen in the light, it looks like he's crying.
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I think Ennis was pretty close to tears here. That seems to be the case whenever he's shooting Jack's airplane out of the sky, actually - it's the same when he says "ain't no reins on this one" :\'(
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I think Ennis was pretty close to tears here. That seems to be the case whenever he's shooting Jack's airplane out of the sky, actually - it's the same when he says "ain't no reins on this one" /b] :\'(
You know, I didn't realize this until something I read in one of the fanfics made me think of it ... but really, we see Jack cry after the divorce debacle, when Ennis turns him away, but even though we (usually) consider Jack to be the more openly emotional one, it's Ennis we see in tears or close to tears more often. Instances I can think of:
Leaving Brokeback he breaks down in the alley;
in this motel scene he seems close to tears;
as you say, NoReins, he looks close to tears when he says "ain't no reins ...",
of course, breaking down at the lake that last time;
when he's talking to Lureen on the phone, seems like he's fighting tears;
at Jack's parents house, both as he's looking around the room (tears) and finding the shirts (many, many tears);
And that last "Jack, I swear .. "
Sorry if that's OT ... but I hadn't really noticed his tears in this motel scene until this thread was started, and now it's got me seeing tears everywhere ...
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yes, and he also has tears at the divorce scene.
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True, kathy! I'd forgotten that scene! ^f^
It's been my experience that when people suppress their emotions for long periods of time, they become so "full up" that any additional added feelings tend to spill over ... there's just not enough room to contain everything, something has to be let out to release the pressure or you explode. I often suspect that people easily brought to tears are holding on to many things from their past that should have been released long ago. Same for Ennis, I think. In this motel scene the stress of realizing that he can't have what he wants or grant Jack his hearts desire, pushes the tears close to the surface.
And the fact that he doesn't let them fall adds to the weight he's already carrying inside. :(
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This may well be the most intimate scene in the film, IMO. It's that time after the love-making that both are the most vulnerable, relaxed, unassuming, and open to one another. Even Ennis, who is so close-mouthed, lets some of his feelings slip out inspite of his natural reticence. This is a pivotal scene in that, if there ever was a questiion as to whether Ennis and Jake were in love or in lust, the question is answered here. This is lovel The physical desire is slaked for the time being and they are just enjoying each other as lovers do. I love this scene -- one of my favorites.
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I feel all warm inside ;D i love the motel scene, but too bad we didn't get alittle taste of the incredible sex we all know they had after 4 years.
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Hi, everyone--
I checked the topic list and I know there was already a thread on the motel scene, but it was mostly about whether this would have been too public for Ennis, or exactly how they were able to get a room. I'm more interested in talking about the scene itself--specifically, what it tells us about each of them. Although it's a pretty short scene, I feel like it really reveals some important qualities of Jack and of Ennis--and about what the nature of their future relationship is likely to be.
A few thoughts: Jack is holding Ennis, and keeps turning his head so that his lips are in Ennis's hair. Ennis is lying on Jack's chest, holding/rubbing his forearm as they talk. Both men are smoking, though we see Ennis taking more puffs than Jack, mostly because Jack has a lot more to say.
So what do you think about how this scene gives us insight into their relationship? What clues are we meant to pick up on here?
One thing that always puzzles me is how come Ennis didn't hestitate to go off to the motel with Jack that time but all other times would never take the risk of being seen with him?I know Jack could of booked it,got the room key etc whilst Ennis stayed in the truck,but he was so paranoid i just wonder why he did this but wouldn't at any other time?
Jennis.x
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One thing that always puzzles me is how come Ennis didn't hestitate to go off to the motel with Jack that time but all other times would never take the risk of being seen with him?I know Jack could of booked it,got the room key etc whilst Ennis stayed in the truck,but he was so paranoid i just wonder why he did this but wouldn't at any other time?
Jennis.x
I don't think Ennis was thinking too straight (no pun intended) at the reunion. First he kissed Jack out in the open and then he went to a motel with him. I just think he was caught up in the emotion of seeing Jack again and let loose four years of pent up passion. He's so happy and excited throughout...until Jack asks what they're going to do now and reality comes crashing back down around him (another moment that Heath did so brilliantly with just his facial expression and his eyes)
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I think this scene helps us see that Ennis is not so distant in this relationship as we sometimes think. He is totally present in that room with Jack. As he says, when this thing hits them, nothing can stop them. They are out of control. I'm sure this was a big shock for Ennis. I don't think he could ever have imagined reacting as he did when he saw Jack again. Maybe is was remembering the reunion kiss and the motel event that made him feel people knew about him and Jack and what Ennis was.
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I think this scene helps us see that Ennis is not so distant in this relationship as we sometimes think. He is totally present in that room with Jack. As he says, when this thing hits them, nothing can stop them. They are out of control. I'm sure this was a big shock for Ennis. I don't think he could ever have imagined reacting as he did when he saw Jack again. Maybe is was remembering the reunion kiss and the motel event that made him feel people knew about him and Jack and what Ennis was.
Yes, they were out of control. That's because when together, they form a certain "complete entity" that is greater than the sum of its parts. That's what true love does...
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One thing that always puzzles me is how come Ennis didn't hestitate to go off to the motel with Jack that time but all other times would never take the risk of being seen with him?I know Jack could of booked it,got the room key etc whilst Ennis stayed in the truck,but he was so paranoid i just wonder why he did this but wouldn't at any other time?
Jennis.x
I don't think Ennis was thinking too straight (no pun intended) at the reunion. First he kissed Jack out in the open and then he went to a motel with him. I just think he was caught up in the emotion of seeing Jack again and let loose four years of pent up passion. He's so happy and excited throughout...until Jack asks what they're going to do now and reality comes crashing back down around him (another moment that Heath did so brilliantly with just his facial expression and his eyes)
I agree with you Lindsey. Ennis was acting "wierd" that whole day - taking a day off, wearing his best shirt, spending hours staring out the window and pacing around... clearly he didn't give much thought to the impression it might make on Alma, if I was her I'd alread get suspicious! and then when he saw Jack, the minute he held him in his arms, he couldn't think clearly at all anymore. he wanted Jack so bad, all he could think about was getting him alone somewhere as soon as possible. he was blinded by his passion.
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Thank you, tpe, lamusica, Jennis, NoReins & Keren!
All beautifully said. <^(
Reading your posts, I have scheduled myself time tonight to watch from Reunion to Motel, at the very least. It's been too long and you've broken down my last ounze of resistance. :t) I must see crazy-in-love wired-with-anticipation Ennis again - followed, too soon after, with crashing-into-reality Ennis and Jack.
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Thank you, tpe, lamusica, Jennis, NoReins & Keren!
All beautifully said. <^(
Reading your posts, I have scheduled myself time tonight to watch from Reunion to Motel, at the very least. It's been too long and you've broken down my last ounze of resistance. :t) I must see crazy-in-love wired-with-anticipation Ennis again - followed, too soon after, with crashing-into-reality Ennis and Jack.
Sounds like some high class entertainment if you ask me....
;)
Sorry....I'll stop cross contaminating now ;D
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Sounds like some high class entertainment if you ask me....
;)
Oh you b**ch, I wanted to say that! ^^)
kathy
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I agree, I think Ennis was out of control during the reunion and motel room scenes. He wasn't thinking just let his emotions take over. Ironically I think it was partly this reaction that scared Ennis into not wanting that "sweet life" with Jack. When he had time to think about it he realized that "this thing" could grab hold of him and he had no power over it. I think he was terrified of the loss of control he had displayed during the reunion. How sad that this beautiful thing, this overwhelming love for another person could scare him so badly. Sorry if this is a little *o).
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If the reunion kiss never happened, maybe Ennis would of lived with Jack after all.... Yeah right! ;D but it is a good thought.
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If the reunion kiss never happened, maybe Ennis would of lived with Jack after all.... Yeah right! ;D but it is a good thought.
Well, that's not exactly what I meant... :-[
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If the reunion kiss never happened, maybe Ennis would of lived with Jack after all.... Yeah right! ;D but it is a good thought.
Well, that's not exactly what I meant... :-[
I wasn't making fun of you (I didn't even read all your post :8 ) sorry, I was just thinking aloud. Ennis references to the R. Kiss and uses it as a excuse not to fulfil what Jack wanted
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I agree, I think Ennis was out of control during the reunion and motel room scenes. He wasn't thinking just let his emotions take over. Ironically I think it was partly this reaction that scared Ennis into not wanting that "sweet life" with Jack. When he had time to think about it he realized that "this thing" could grab hold of him and he had no power over it. I think he was terrified of the loss of control he had displayed during the reunion. How sad that this beautiful thing, this overwhelming love for another person could scare him so badly. Sorry if this is a little *o).
That's a good point. Ennis had probably had time to think later, and he realized how reckless he'd been - kissing Jack out in the open and going to a motel with him - he realised that he can't control his passion around Jack and his own reaction scared him. therefore the only "safe" place to meet Jack was way back in the middle of nowhere...
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I agree, I think Ennis was out of control during the reunion and motel room scenes. He wasn't thinking just let his emotions take over. Ironically I think it was partly this reaction that scared Ennis into not wanting that "sweet life" with Jack. When he had time to think about it he realized that "this thing" could grab hold of him and he had no power over it. I think he was terrified of the loss of control he had displayed during the reunion. How sad that this beautiful thing, this overwhelming love for another person could scare him so badly. Sorry if this is a little *o).
That's a good point. Ennis had probably had time to think later, and he realized how reckless he'd been - kissing Jack out in the open and going to a motel with him - he realised that he can't control his passion around Jack and his own reaction scared him. therefore the only "safe" place to meet Jack was way back in the middle of nowhere...
I agree completely with your posts, Camellia and Keren, great observations. O0
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I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread before. I will probably go back and read more of the posts.
I found this scene so moving and touching. Ennis and Jack were obviously so content to be with each other. It amazes me how a this scene can display the depth of their feelings for each other and their situation with such little dialog. Ennis rubbing Jack's arm is a very subtle gesture, yet it really conveys his feelings and his contentment. I truly understood what was being felt between the two. It reminds me of my own motel scene from 23 years ago. I was in the arms of someone I really wanted. For a brief period, nothing outside of that room existed or mattered.
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I'm sure I said it somewhere else, maybe here, but it's "Infinite riches in a little room" , isn't it?
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That sums it up welshwitch!! O0
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You know in these scene you can smell the cigarette and feel the warm hug of Jack, one the most sexy moments in the movie <^(
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You know in these scene you can smell the cigarette and feel the warm hug of Jack, one the most sexy moments in the movie <^(
Agreed . . . Even though I don't think cigarettes smell sexy.
<^( <^( <^(
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yeah i hate the cigarette, but not in that moment, the power of love i guess made us forget it O0
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yeah i hate the cigarette, but not in that moment, the power of love i guess made us forget it O0
Cigarettes? What cigarettes? ;D
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the one's they're smoking - they're mentioned in the ss too but I try to edit them out when i see/read BBM.
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yeah i hate the cigarette, but not in that moment, the power of love i guess made us forget it O0
Cigarettes? What cigarettes? ;D
Yes, all I can see is Jack's arm around Ennis... Ennis's hand rubbing Jack's arm... Jack's face buried in Ennis's hair, his lips mumbling in his ear... the touch of skin against skin...
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It's funny. I don't notice the cigarettes in the film (although obviously I know they're there) because I'm too caught up in watching the little touches and the looks on the boys faces and listening to their words. I only really see the cigs in the screen caps.
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It's funny. I don't notice the cigarettes in the film (although obviously I know they're there) because I'm too caught up in watching the little touches and the looks on the boys faces and listening to their words. I only really see the cigs in the screen caps.
I'm with you on this one. I am aware of the smoking, but it takes a back stage to the connection we see between these guys. It's a credit to their acting because I really believe I am looking at two people so content being together.
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I must admit that smoking in this motel scene and throughout the film adds realism to the whole. Smoking and drink would probably constitute their principal sources of relaxation. And what can be a better portrayal of this form of relaxation than with its pairing with post-coital reveries?
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I must admit that smoking in this motel scene and throughout the film adds realism to the whole. Smoking and drink would probably constitute their principal sources of relaxation. And what can be a better portrayal of this form of relaxation than with its pairing with post-coital reveries?
"Post-coital" is an adjective I haven't used in quite some time...but it works here. Back during that time period, smoking and drinking were a primary means of relaxation. Although frowned upon in today's society, it does add an accurate touch of realism to this scene.
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I must admit that smoking in this motel scene and throughout the film adds realism to the whole. Smoking and drink would probably constitute their principal sources of relaxation. And what can be a better portrayal of this form of relaxation than with its pairing with post-coital reveries?
"Post-coital" is an adjective I haven't used in quite some time...but it works here. Back during that time period, smoking and drinking were a primary means of relaxation. Although frowned upon in today's society, it does add an accurate touch of realism to this scene.
In a lot of the old heterosexual love scenes on film, the guy and/or girl invariably smokes, correct? I find this BBM scene an interesting modern take on the old. :)
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It makes one think...if same sex relationships had not been so taboo over the years, we could have witnessed a similar scene with some of our favorites from Hollywood's "Golden Age." This may be a bit <OT> but now I am picturing this same scene with leading men from a former era.
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It makes one think...if same sex relationships had not been so taboo over the years, we could have witnessed a similar scene with some of our favorites from Hollywood's "Golden Age." This may be a bit <OT> but now I am picturing this same scene with leading men from a former era.
*Dreams* . . . . :d) <^( :d) <^(
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It makes one think...if same sex relationships had not been so taboo over the years, we could have witnessed a similar scene with some of our favorites from Hollywood's "Golden Age." This may be a bit <OT> but now I am picturing this same scene with leading men from a former era.
*Dreams* . . . . :d) <^( :d) <^(
One can dream. :)
Thats why this motel scene is so wonderful: it is strangely familiar.
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One can dream. :)
Thats why this motel scene is so wonderful: it is strangely familiar.
<^( Who would have thought passing comments on smoking would lead to such romantic dreams ... <^( Thank you! ^f^
One of the tenderest moments in the whole film, for me ... The kiss Jack presses to Ennis' hair, just before he says "what are we gonna do now??". So much love and yearning and need in that simple gesture.
Sometimes, when I'm in a fanciful mood, this whole motel scene has an ethereal feel to it, for me. "Otherworldly" because for a brief moment they are neither of the world nor in it, there is just each other. With all the possibilities and pitfalls still just ghosts in the air, without substance or the ability to harm. Then the die is cast by those last words we hear from Ennis in that room, and once they leave the Siesta their destiny is set. This smoky room becomes to me the transition between their innocent freedom on Brokeback and the illusory freedom of their future "fishing" trips.
Like I said ... fanciful thoughts, considering the very earthy reason they're in the motel room in the first place ... :-[
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<^( Who would have thought passing comments on smoking would lead to such romantic dreams ... <^( Thank you! ^f^
One of the tenderest moments in the whole film, for me ... The kiss Jack presses to Ennis' hair, just before he says "what are we gonna do now??". So much love and yearning and need in that simple gesture.
Sometimes, when I'm in a fanciful mood, this whole motel scene has an ethereal feel to it, for me. "Otherworldly" because for a brief moment they are neither of the world nor in it, there is just each other. With all the possibilities and pitfalls still just ghosts in the air, without substance or the ability to harm. Then the die is cast by those last words we hear from Ennis in that room, and once they leave the Siesta their destiny is set. This smoky room becomes to me the transition between their innocent freedom on Brokeback and the illusory freedom of their future "fishing" trips.
Like I said ... fanciful thoughts, considering the very earthy reason they're in the motel room in the first place ... :-[
Yes, it is otherwordly. The lighting, most especially so. I assume the light comes from the neon Motel sign, but is bathes them with a ruddy hue in the middle of the dark night.
Is it the color of blood?
Nay; but perchance it was the color of love...
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It makes one think...if same sex relationships had not been so taboo over the years, we could have witnessed a similar scene with some of our favorites from Hollywood's "Golden Age." This may be a bit <OT> but now I am picturing this same scene with leading men from a former era.
Whow Cowboy! Hot stuff! I never thought of that, but now I can so easily picture it. And of course, the ladies together, too.
kathy
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I love that little tug on Jack's arm. <^( <^( <^(
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I love the whole motel room scene.
I can feel how much they love each other and how comfortable they are with each other. It's amazing.
Only Ennis could say so much with a little tug on the arm. You can see how happy he is to be with Jack, to be himself, to not have to hold up that heavy wall and hide... yet you can see how lost he feels, lost in himself.
Jack knows exactly who Ennis is, while Ennis doesn't really understand who he is at all. It's painful to look in his eyes while Jack is holding him. You can see the inner conflict going on. He's letting Jack hold him, enjoying and embracing it, but also knowing that who he is at that moment isn't someone he necessarily wants to be. He just doesn't understand himself. All he knows is that when he's with Jack, he's happy.
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Beautiful post Erica ^f^
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Thank you! I'm glad someone liked it. :c)
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Thank you! I'm glad someone liked it. :c)
You're welcome ^f^
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Thank you! I'm glad someone liked it. :c)
Of course we liked it. That's such a wonderful and interesting scene, and your post describes Ennis perfectly. I love especially, "Only Ennis could say so much with a little tug on the arm." And everything else you said about his poor conflicted self.
kathy
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Thank you! I'm glad someone liked it. :c)
Of course we liked it. That's such a wonderful and interesting scene, and your post describes Ennis perfectly. I love especially, "Only Ennis could say so much with a little tug on the arm." And everything else you said about his poor conflicted self.
kathy
Thanks! I can feel all the love.... :ghug:
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_085_jpg.jpg&hash=7ccf848a69a7c3d94756ae71e0b86a99bc63291d)
So Beautiful and Loving <^( <^( <^(
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_085_jpg.jpg&hash=7ccf848a69a7c3d94756ae71e0b86a99bc63291d)
So Beautiful and Loving <^( <^( <^(
awwwww... just looking at that makes me all gooey inside.
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Same here . . .
I just melt inside every time I see that image. <^( <^( <^(
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You can see the pain in Jack's eyes.... holding on to Ennis and not wanting to ever let go. Knowing how deeply he feels for him, and realizing that Ennis isn't ready to have any of it... at least not embrace it like Jack wants to. :(
Jake and Heath did a great great job.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_084_jpg.jpg&hash=843744353a62b620581d1c81eacaf83abf06259c)
For now, it's all about the love. <^( <^( <^(
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Yay for love!
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I think we may be going slightly off topic here . . . Not that it's a bad thing. <^(
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naaaahhh, we're talking about the love they had for each other during the motel scene. we are sooooo on topic. ;)
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naaaahhh, we're talking about the love they had for each other during the motel scene. we are sooooo on topic. ;)
*Phew*
Alright . . . Back to the love talk.
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You can see the pain in Jack's eyes.... holding on to Ennis and not wanting to ever let go. Knowing how deeply he feels for him, and realizing that Ennis isn't ready to have any of it... at least not embrace it like Jack wants to. :(
Jake and Heath did a great great job.
They certainly did. There are so many places in the whole film where the dynamics between them are expressed in such subtle ways, and these two men are just excellent at that kind of acting. It is so not a caricature of "love" or "desire" or "tortured" or "angry" or any of it. They did it all so genuinely.
Anyway, I want to say again what you mentioned about that tug on Jack's arm. I know this has been talked about previously, but since Ennis had such trouble putting his feelings into words, or even recognizing in words what his feelings were, he expressed himself more with his body than with words. And this little movement is a perfect example.
Boy, thinking about "expressing" themselves in that bed just before this scene that we see... Whew. (I need an icon for fanning oneself.)
kathy
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I just noticed when I was looking at this photo. The expression on Jack's face.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_083_jpg.jpg&hash=8e53bbfeeda3956b5389980fcd8eea2b8fbc8b57)
He looks like he has been satisfied out of his mind. ;)
Sorry if that sounded dirty, but that's what it looks like. Sought of a "Wow" face.
He has waited four years and finally they're back together again. <^( <^( <^(
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I just noticed when I was looking at this photo. The expression on Jack's face.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_083_jpg.jpg&hash=8e53bbfeeda3956b5389980fcd8eea2b8fbc8b57)
He looks like he has been satisfied out of his mind. ;)
Sorry if that sounded dirty, but that's what it looks like. Sought of a "Wow" face.
He has waited four years and finally they're back together again. <^( <^( <^(
"WOW.... what just happened??? That was the best freakin sex I've had in my life."
....something like that maybe?? ^-^
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I just noticed when I was looking at this photo. The expression on Jack's face.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_083_jpg.jpg&hash=8e53bbfeeda3956b5389980fcd8eea2b8fbc8b57)
He looks like he has been satisfied out of his mind. ;)
Sorry if that sounded dirty, but that's what it looks like. Sought of a "Wow" face.
He has waited four years and finally they're back together again. <^( <^( <^(
"WOW.... what just happened??? That was the best freakin sex I've had in my life."
....something like that maybe?? ^-^
That's the one !!! <^(
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Haha! I'm glad I could help find the words.
I think what makes the whole motel room scene so great for me is that Ennis is letting Jack hold him. Ennis, this tough, rugged guy who shows little to no emotion to the outside world, is letting himself be held. It's so beautiful. It's like you can see the real Ennis, underneath all of his layers. I don't think he would allow anyone else to hold him... at least not in that manner.
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Haha! I'm glad I could help find the words.
I think what makes the whole motel room scene so great for me is that Ennis is letting Jack hold him. Ennis, this tough, rugged guy who shows little to no emotion to the outside world, is letting himself be held. It's so beautiful. It's like you can see the real Ennis, underneath all of his layers. I don't think he would allow anyone else to hold him... at least not in that manner.
I know that I will forever melt at the sight of Jack holding Ennis in bed. <^(
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Haha! I'm glad I could help find the words.
I think what makes the whole motel room scene so great for me is that Ennis is letting Jack hold him. Ennis, this tough, rugged guy who shows little to no emotion to the outside world, is letting himself be held. It's so beautiful. It's like you can see the real Ennis, underneath all of his layers. I don't think he would allow anyone else to hold him... at least not in that manner.
I know that I will forever melt at the sight of Jack holding Ennis in bed. <^(
Wonderful point. And he looks relaxed and secure in Jack's embrace.
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Haha! I'm glad I could help find the words.
I think what makes the whole motel room scene so great for me is that Ennis is letting Jack hold him. Ennis, this tough, rugged guy who shows little to no emotion to the outside world, is letting himself be held. It's so beautiful. It's like you can see the real Ennis, underneath all of his layers. I don't think he would allow anyone else to hold him... at least not in that manner.
I know that I will forever melt at the sight of Jack holding Ennis in bed. <^(
Wonderful point. And he looks relaxed and secure in Jack's embrace.
Yes he is, because he's finally where he's meant to be, where he belongs - in Jack's arms. Erica, you said it beautifully.
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Haha! I'm glad I could help find the words.
I think what makes the whole motel room scene so great for me is that Ennis is letting Jack hold him. Ennis, this tough, rugged guy who shows little to no emotion to the outside world, is letting himself be held. It's so beautiful. It's like you can see the real Ennis, underneath all of his layers. I don't think he would allow anyone else to hold him... at least not in that manner.
I think you are absolutely right, and beautifully said! ^f^
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One of those still points in a turning world, and one of the few occasions when they have time to simply be together, rather than doing things. Very few other shots in the film showw them in that way.
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Thank you guys very much, keren_b, tpe, and greenfrog.
I think I could put together a nice essay with all of my 'deep' paragraphs. haha.
But back to Jack and Ennis.... when they're talking about when Jack went back to talk to Aguirre the next summer, he only says 'He told me you hadn't been back, so I left.' but he didn't say anything about Aguirre's harsh words about he and Ennis stemming the rose. I think that says a lot about Jack. I think, both, Jack isn't saying anything for himself and he isn't telling Ennis because he knows he doesn't need to hear it.... it would only cause him more pain inside, knowing what he feels with Jack isn't accepted by yet another person.
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Thank you guys very much, keren_b, tpe, and greenfrog.
I think I could put together a nice essay with all of my 'deep' paragraphs. haha.
But back to Jack and Ennis.... when they're talking about when Jack went back to talk to Aguirre the next summer, he only says 'He told me you hadn't been back, so I left.' but he didn't say anything about Aguirre's harsh words about he and Ennis stemming the rose. I think that says a lot about Jack. I think, both, Jack isn't saying anything for himself and he isn't telling Ennis because he knows he doesn't need to hear it.... it would only cause him more pain inside, knowing what he feels with Jack isn't accepted by yet another person.
Some people have interpreted this to show that Jack can lie in his dealings with Ennis. This particular instance is often used to demonstrate that Jack's "Me neither" response to Ennis's "I'm not queer" declaration is of a similar vein.
But I agree that whenever Jack does not tell the whole truth to Ennis, it is motivated by a knowledge that Ennis would not be able to deal with it. It tells us about Jack's sensitivity, and not a glibness in getting out of difficult situations.
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...and thank you christie wood!! sorry, I missed ya! :)
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Thank you guys very much, keren_b, tpe, and greenfrog.
I think I could put together a nice essay with all of my 'deep' paragraphs. haha.
But back to Jack and Ennis.... when they're talking about when Jack went back to talk to Aguirre the next summer, he only says 'He told me you hadn't been back, so I left.' but he didn't say anything about Aguirre's harsh words about he and Ennis stemming the rose. I think that says a lot about Jack. I think, both, Jack isn't saying anything for himself and he isn't telling Ennis because he knows he doesn't need to hear it.... it would only cause him more pain inside, knowing what he feels with Jack isn't accepted by yet another person.
Very true. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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But I agree that whenever Jack does not tell the whole truth to Ennis, it is motivated by a knowledge that Ennis would not be able to deal with it. It tells us about Jack's sensitivity, and not a glibness in getting out of difficult situations.
I agree 110%. tpe. This isn't Jack hiding the truth or even lying. It's Jack showing concern for Ennis' welfare. It's Jack caring about Ennis' feelings. It's Jack not hurting Ennis when there isn't any need to do such a thing. If Jack had disclosed everything nothing would have been gained, only destroyed. The hurting had already been done, no reason to contribute again.
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Very true Ricky.
Great post ^f^
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I agree 110%. tpe. This isn't Jack hiding the truth or even lying. It's Jack showing concern for Ennis' welfare. It's Jack caring about Ennis' feelings. It's Jack not hurting Ennis when there isn't any need to do such a thing. If Jack had disclosed everything nothing would have been gained, only destroyed. The hurting had already been done, no reason to contribute again.
rick65, thanks. Certainly, Jack knew that Ennis had a lot of hurt deep inside of him. They understood each other.
And as the Poet said:
A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
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There are things that may be true but don't need to be said - the fact that they may be true doesn;t make them necessarily appropriate, and given how jumpy Ennis is at the thought of being found out, there would be no point in telling him about Aguirre and starting him thinking that Aguirre had worked out what their relationship was. Doesn;t matter to Jack, who now lives hundreds of miles away - but Aguirre is probably a lot closer to where Ennis lives.
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There are things that may be true but don't need to be said - the fact that they may be true doesn;t make them necessarily appropriate, and given how jumpy Ennis is at the thought of being found out, there would be no point in telling him about Aguirre and starting him thinking that Aguirre had worked out what their relationship was. Doesn;t matter to Jack, who now lives hundreds of miles away - but Aguirre is probably a lot closer to where Ennis lives.
Yes. Anything that would cast doubt on his sexual identity would throw Ennis in a tizzy. I am sure Jack realized this from the very start (e.g., Ennis's disquiet after the FNIT) and sought to placate him at every opportunity. This included Jack having to assure Ennis that Jack himself was "ain't queer" -- up until the last meeting by the Lake when Jack stood up for his internal feelings and needs.
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There are things that may be true but don't need to be said - the fact that they may be true doesn;t make them necessarily appropriate, and given how jumpy Ennis is at the thought of being found out, there would be no point in telling him about Aguirre and starting him thinking that Aguirre had worked out what their relationship was. Doesn;t matter to Jack, who now lives hundreds of miles away - but Aguirre is probably a lot closer to where Ennis lives.
Yes. Anything that would cast doubt on his sexual identity would throw Ennis in a tizzy. I am sure Jack realized this from the very start (e.g., Ennis's disquiet after the FNIT) and sought to placate him at every opportunity. This included Jack having to assure Ennis that Jack himself was "ain't queer" -- up until the last meeting by the Lake when Jack stood up for his internal feelings and needs.
You've just brought up this big rush of feelings in me, for some reason. Thinking about Jack and how deeply he loved Ennis and wanted to help Ennis feel comfortable with himself...until he just could not take it anymore. That confrontation scene, as painful as it is, is absolutely one of my favorite scenes. I love Jack for how he finally had to express his pain and frustration; I love Ennis for finally letting go and breaking down; I love how they came together right at the end there...and I wonder what happened right after what we saw, before Ennis drove away.
I'm sorry -- we're in Motel Room Scene thread. How'd we get to confrontation scene? (^)
I really just meant to say I love the phrase you said, Tom. I want to use "ain't queer" as an adjective now. Jack was ain't queer. Ennis was ain't queer. I am ain't queer (not true -- I'm just saying that to make you feel more comfortable -- not you personally, Tom, but "you" whoever needs to feel more comfortable). ^*()
kathy
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You've just brought up this big rush of feelings in me, for some reason. Thinking about Jack and how deeply he loved Ennis and wanted to help Ennis feel comfortable with himself...until he just could not take it anymore. That confrontation scene, as painful as it is, is absolutely one of my favorite scenes. I love Jack for how he finally had to express his pain and frustration; I love Ennis for finally letting go and breaking down; I love how they came together right at the end there...and I wonder what happened right after what we saw, before Ennis drove away.
I'm sorry -- we're in Motel Room Scene thread. How'd we get to confrontation scene? (^)
I really just meant to say I love the phrase you said, Tom. I want to use "ain't queer" as an adjective now. Jack was ain't queer. Ennis was ain't queer. I am ain't queer (not true -- I'm just saying that to make you feel more comfortable -- not you personally, Tom, but "you" whoever needs to feel more comfortable). ^*()
kathy
I did spot the errror whern I was reading my post as you questied it.
Since you pointed this out, I will let the error stand as it is. ;)
Not too OOT: the discussion arose because we know that in the motel scene, Jack deliberately left something out when he recounted his visit to Aguirre the next summer. We justify his deliberate half-truths by citing his love for Ennis. In the scene by the lake, we see the truth revealed, and it hurt Ennis so much. That was why he said "I'm sorry".
In the Motel scene and in the scene by the lake -- truth or untruth -- Jack never wanted to hurt Ennis. This is at the very root of his "lies".
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The motel room scene is of course the starting -point of all the lies or deceptions that continue right up to that scene by the lake, and beyond. That they can't tell the truth to each other or to anyone else is the fissure which will eventually open up to engulf them.
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I see it the way ww does. Maybe those who say that Jack only wanted to protect Ennis are right. But what did he do to himself? What did it do to Jack to keep on lying right up to the last time they met (and I do mean lying to himself as well as to Ennis)? In the end, it made him take up with Randall. Sad as that is for me, I am always relieved to know that Jack finally came out of his "always protecting Ennis from himself" mode. Just because he was the more articulate one doesn't mean he didn't need protection as well. How did Ennis protect Jack? By telling his wife they were fishing buddies? I don't know why, but this is getting me all heated up. Maybe because I sense that, in some way, Jack is given the role of the woman protecting her man from too harsh emotional truths here. So many women have been brought up not to question the status quo their men need to believe in. Even if it almost breaks them. Ennis, being the more emotional one, the one who may be more in touch with his feelings, gets to play this role. Always holding back, not telling truths so Ennis won't have to face up to them. Makes for a great love movie, but for a terrible life. Kind of a paradox here, isn't there? :s) Because I love BBM so very much because of this tragedy and at the same time I rage against the injustices of society and upbringing and the self-mutilation of Ennis and Jack. :\'(
monicita
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Every year unfulfilled was like a cancer to Jack. And every year trying to keep the status quo was getting increasingly difficult for Ennis. The practical origination point for all this can be thought to be the motel scene -- where Ennis establishes the status quo and Jack acquiesces, but always hoping for a change of heart. We see them slowly being eaten up from the inside as time passes -- beautifully expressed cinematically in the sequence of scenes after the Thanksgiving episodes. We can therefore see the motel scene and the last meeting by the lake as pendant pieces. One must be referenced with the other to appreciate their mutual journey of the heart.
Jack tried to protect Ennis by lying to him about certain realities and possibilities that Ennis was unwilling to face. But we should also note that Ennis maintained the status quo because he though it was the best way he could protect and nurture whatever love both of them shared with each other against the backdrop of a disapproving society. The motel scene and the final meeting by the lake show both of them grappling with the contradictions inherent in their individual approaches. That they could not reconcile both visions is the tragedy of it all.
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I really just meant to say I love the phrase you said, Tom. I want to use "ain't queer" as an adjective now. Jack was ain't queer. Ennis was ain't queer. I am ain't queer (not true -- I'm just saying that to make you feel more comfortable -- not you personally, Tom, but "you" whoever needs to feel more comfortable).
kathy
I did spot the errror whern I was reading my post as you questied it.
Since you pointed this out, I will let the error stand as it is. ;)
Darn -- that was an error? Shoot. I wanted to add it to the BBM dictionary. I thought it was cool, and you made up a new funny thing. Well, it's still funny.
kathy
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Every year unfulfilled was like a cancer to Jack. And every year trying to keep the status quo was getting increasingly difficult for Ennis. The practical origination point for all this can be thought to be the motel scene -- where Ennis establishes the status quo and Jack acquiesces, but always hoping for a change of heart. We see them slowly being eaten up from the inside as time passes -- beautifully expressed cinematically in the sequence of scenes after the Thanksgiving episodes. We can therefore see the motel scene and the last meeting by the lake as pendant pieces. One must be referenced with the other to appreciate their mutual journey of the heart.
Jack tried to protect Ennis by lying to him about certain realities and possibilities that Ennis was unwilling to face. But we should also note that Ennis maintained the status quo because he though it was the best way he could protect and nurture whatever love both of them shared with each other against the backdrop of a disapproving society. The motel scene and the final meeting by the lake show both of them grappling with the contradictions inherent in their individual approaches. That they could not reconcile both visions is the tragedy of it all.
Interesting post tpe.
Jack did lie to Ennis a number of times, but then I think of a quote from The Simpsons . .
"The lie made us happier than the truth ever could".
I doubt telling the truth to Ennis would have made the situation any better. It probably would have only made it worse.
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Jack did lie to Ennis a number of times, but then I think of a quote from The Simpsons . .
"The lie made us happier than the truth ever could".
I doubt telling the truth to Ennis would have made the situation any better. It probably would have only made it worse.
I agree. Jack realized that it would not have helped. Look at waht happened in their last meeting by the lake. It hurt jack as much as it hurt Ennis...
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Well,yes, it hurt. But sometimes it needs to hurt, before it gets better. I'm certainly not in favour of not saying things in order not to get hurt now, my experience is that it hurts even more later on, when you have to face up to it (as can be seen in their last reunion). On the other hand, I'm not a gay man and maybe I don't really know what it is like to have to protect each other in this way. The only thing I do believe in is that in the long run only openness and joyful acceptance of being gay will change things...
thougthful :s)
monicita
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Well,yes, it hurt. But sometimes it needs to hurt, before it gets better. I'm certainly not in favour of not saying things in order not to get hurt now, my experience is that it hurts even more later on, when you have to face up to it (as can be seen in their last reunion). On the other hand, I'm not a gay man and maybe I don't really know what it is like to have to protect each other in this way. The only thing I do believe in is that in the long run only openness and joyful acceptance of being gay will change things...
thougthful :s)
monicita
I think Jack was also in a quandry here.
Had he told the truth, even early on, it would have hurt Ennis, who could not deal with his inner demons. Perhaps he feared that he would have lost Ennis entirely if he didn't leave certain things unsaid. Perhaps he was right in his fear...
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As wrong as it seems, if Jack had told Ennis he 'rides more than bulls, not rolling his own' then how would Ennis reacte? That is one line in the book i woulda killed to have in the movie ("you do it with other guys? JACK?") That line shocked the hell out of me on the first viewing. Of course Jack denies it (much like the "Me neither" line) but what is also ambiguous is how would Ennis had reacted at such a young age when him and Jack were still 'new'? Ennis/Jack had so much tension when Jack announced he'd been to Mexico a couple of times, so Ennis just became candescent (a favorite word of mine meaning 'white hot') ;) Jack did well by not telling Ennis, IMO. But that scene in the movie when John Twist tells Ennis, Jack found another was all too disappointing for Ennis. He looked so crestfallen(Yet another word i love, meaning 'discouraged' or 'suddenly weighted with sadness/disappointment') ALA, Jack was going to move on.
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Jack did lie to Ennis a number of times, but then I think of a quote from The Simpsons . .
"The lie made us happier than the truth ever could".
I doubt telling the truth to Ennis would have made the situation any better. It probably would have only made it worse.
I agree. Jack realized that it would not have helped. Look at waht happened in their last meeting by the lake. It hurt jack as much as it hurt Ennis...
I don't think Ennis realised how much it was hurting Jack either.
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I don't think Ennis realised how much it was hurting Jack either.
I do tend to agree. I believe he only realized this after Jack's death -- together with the realization of how much Jack had loved him.
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I don't think Ennis realised how much it was hurting Jack either.
I do tend to agree. I believe he only realized this after Jack's death -- together with the realization of how much Jack had loved him.
I also agree. Ennis seemed so blind to Jack-did he care? I think he did, but was so caught up into his own thing, that any fishing trip he was just so happy, not having time to think of the bad. Right.
How did he not think Jack was gay? Is he really that slow that he actually believes Jack would always hold off for male companionship till the FTs-like Ennis did. He did not see how much Jack truly loved him either, till it was too late. I think he realizes the love in the 'shirt smelling' scene. Jack took his shirt,ALA, he loved and missed Ennis-more words spoken about it than ever said
and Greenfrog, don't overrate my posts, it makes me feel all icky
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I really thought that Ennis acted the way he did (keeping Jack at a distance) because he truly believed that this was the best way to protect their relationship. That is, to keep it hidden, and to meet only a few times in the middle of nowhere -- safe from prying eyes. Of course, he didn;t realize until too late that for Jack, this just wasn't enough.
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Well,yes, it hurt. But sometimes it needs to hurt, before it gets better. I'm certainly not in favour of not saying things in order not to get hurt now, my experience is that it hurts even more later on, when you have to face up to it (as can be seen in their last reunion). On the other hand, I'm not a gay man and maybe I don't really know what it is like to have to protect each other in this way. The only thing I do believe in is that in the long run only openness and joyful acceptance of being gay will change things...
thougthful :s)
monicita
I love what you said, Monicita. But shit, it's hard, being totally honest regardless of consequences, to your own mental health, and to the other person. Ideally, of course, honesty, yes.
But with any people, not just love relationships but family and friendships, it's not an easy balance: be honest / don't hurt the other's feelings / protect the other from what they can't handle (though this is only your perception of what they can't handle). I guess we just have to do the best we can at the time, with whatever good judgment we have. Balance your need to say something that might be hurtful against the other person's need to either know what you feel, or be spared it.
So, what if Jack had been honest with Ennis? Instead of saying, "Me, neither," saying "Well, I am queer." And if Jack had told Ennis that Aguirre saw them that first summer. So, he would have freaked Ennis out, and he wouldn't have been able to be with Ennis perhaps. But what right did Jack really have to be with Ennis under these arguably false pretenses? If he'd been honest, he wouldn't have gotten Ennis, and he would have moved on; and Ennis would have just had his sad life but probably made better of it and maybe even loved Alma more, and...that's just life. Wouldn't have been a good story, though, or a good movie.
kathy
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I love what you said, Monicita. But shit, it's hard, being totally honest regardless of consequences, to your own mental health, and to the other person. Ideally, of course, honesty, yes.
But with any people, not just love relationships but family and friendships, it's not an easy balance: be honest / don't hurt the other's feelings / protect the other from what they can't handle (though this is only your perception of what they can't handle). I guess we just have to do the best we can at the time, with whatever good judgment we have. Balance your need to say something that might be hurtful against the other person's need to either know what you feel, or be spared it.
So, what if Jack had been honest with Ennis? Instead of saying, "Me, neither," saying "Well, I am queer." And if Jack had told Ennis that Aguirre saw them that first summer. So, he would have freaked Ennis out, and he wouldn't have been able to be with Ennis perhaps. But what right did Jack really have to be with Ennis under these arguably false pretenses? If he'd been honest, he wouldn't have gotten Ennis, and he would have moved on; and Ennis would have just had his sad life but probably made better of it and maybe even loved Alma more, and...that's just life. Wouldn't have been a good story, though, or a good movie.
kathy
Yes. I do think that Jack was afraid of losing Ennis if he told the truth and if Ennis wouldn't be able to handle the truth.
Perhaps Jack did not have that much faith in Ennis in this area. Truthfully, I can't blame him. Ennis just had too many unresolved issues and questions about himself. I would be scared to open Pandora's box.
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Well said tpe! O0
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Well said tpe! O0
Thanks CSC.
In a very real sense, we can't blame Ennis, either. It must have been difficult enough going through his formative years the way he did...
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Jack would never put Ennis in such a position. (telling him the truth about him being gay) Thats what AP means when she says "though Jack never made him swear anything, and he himself wasn't a swearing kind." Jack was afraid of pushing Ennis too far, with either his wish for a sweet life, or by telling him he's gay, and he screws other men. Jack never makes Ennis feel obligated to anything-because he loves Ennis, and would never put him in a uncomfortable spot-he would of rather had his drunken life of sadness, screwing mexican prosties, to make up for the lonely times in between the annual fishing trips.
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Very well said FullOfSadness O0
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Jack would never put Ennis in such a position. (telling him the truth about him being gay) Thats what AP means when she says "though Jack never made him swear anything, and he himself wasn't a swearing kind." Jack was afraid of pushing Ennis too far, with either his wish for a sweet life, or by telling him he's gay, and he screws other men. Jack never makes Ennis feel obligated to anything-because he loves Ennis, and would never put him in a uncomfortable spot-he would of rather had his drunken life of sadness, screwing mexican prosties, to make up for the lonely times in between the annual fishing trips.
This is great,FS, how you explained that Jack was not only very conscious of Ennis' feelings, but also that he would sacrifice his other options to continue seeing Ennis. It further illustrates, to me anyway, that Jack felt his un-ideal life was salvaged somewhat by those times he could meet up with Ennis. Those few times a year were greatly cherished by both of them. They, and all of us, wish those fishing trips would last for years and years. Such is love!
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Brokeback Mountain is all i am articulate at
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Is so interesting how powerfull is this scene i saw it one and another time and always made me the cuestion what is in the jacks and ennis minds in that moment, jack look so happy and Ennis lok like a little concerned but happy too... and you have all right Fully, as you Brokeback mountain is all than i am :c)
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A moment when they are happy in the present and jusy before the whole question of their futures raises its head. We love this picture so much because we know they will never quite be this happy togetheragain, or this unaware of the difficyutlies that surround them.
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What also strikes me reading it again is that they evidently barely speak after they arrive - dont want to waste a second. Only afterwards do they start catching up on what has happened in the intervening four years - shows that the impetus of the reunion scene just carried them straight on.
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Considering the level of the attraction between them, I would've been very surprised if they went out to grab a beer and catch up. After the intensity of the reunion kiss, I would expect nothing less of them than to find the closest place where they can be alone and tear the clothes off each other.
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Considering the level of the attraction between them, I would've been very surprised if they went out to grab a beer and catch up. After the intensity of the reunion kiss, I would expect nothing less of them than to find the closest place where they can be alone and tear the clothes off each other.
ALA, the motel. I wish we could of just got Ennis pushing Jack down on the bed, and tearing one clothing off-that would of been enough :d)
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Appease the hunger first. Everything else will follow.
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ALA, the motel. I wish we could of just got Ennis pushing Jack down on the bed, and tearing one clothing off-that would of been enough :d)
Well,we really can imagine that by ourselves.
Thar's why Ang Lee directing is so superb with an understatement of every move they take ... he just hint and you have to guess the rest,not throwing everything in your face .
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ALA, the motel. I wish we could of just got Ennis pushing Jack down on the bed, and tearing one clothing off-that would of been enough :d)
Well,we really can imagine that by ourselves.
Thar's why Ang Lee directing is so superb with an understatement of every move they take ... he just hint and you have to guess the rest,not throwing everything in your face .
How true, however, I have to admit...I've often imagined the two of them in the motel room...moments after the door closed >:D
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ALA, the motel. I wish we could of just got Ennis pushing Jack down on the bed, and tearing one clothing off-that would of been enough :d)
Well,we really can imagine that by ourselves.
Thar's why Ang Lee directing is so superb with an understatement of every move they take ... he just hint and you have to guess the rest,not throwing everything in your face .
How true, however, I have to admit...I've often imagined the two of them in the motel room...moments after the door closed >:D
I think we've all done that, CSC ^-^ :d) :d)
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yup, we have ;D
monicita
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This would've been ONE JUICY SCENE,that's all I know. Damn you Ang!
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This would've been ONE JUICY SCENE,that's all I know. Damn you Ang!
If I had to make a choice, I would gladly give up the juicy motel room scene for a juicy older-men sex scene. Sex after the bickering that was shown so often in the "older" fishing trips.
kathy
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That would havebeen juicy too. I always thought they looked scrumptious in the "older" scenes too. Jack's mustache.....OO LA LA!
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That would havebeen juicy too. I always thought they looked scrumptious in the "older" scenes too. Jack's mustache.....OO LA LA!
I so wanted one after the "Sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it" scene. It was in the SS, and i think it would of been better to at least have one more kiss in the movie from the guys. They show Ennis kiss Alma more than Jack :\'( thats not right, thats one thing i dislike about the movie.
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That would havebeen juicy too. I always thought they looked scrumptious in the "older" scenes too. Jack's mustache.....OO LA LA!
I so wanted one after the "Sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it" scene. It was in the SS, and i think it would of been better to at least have one more kiss in the movie from the guys. They show Ennis kiss Alma more than Jack :\'( thats not right, thats one thing i dislike about the movie.
I agree, it's not right :) Just one more beautiful passionate kiss later on in the movie would have done it for me. And as you just reminded me, it is in the SS. Somehow I guess "they" thought that the sleeping in the tent when they were older was sufficient to indicate their love and affection then. Not sufficient. No way. 100%.
kathy
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The "miss you so much" declaration begged for a response from Ennis in the form of a kiss or at least " I miss you too" but has to be this way for now or SOMETHING. We only got silence .........sorry off topic.
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The "miss you so much" declaration begged for a response from Ennis in the form of a kiss or at least " I miss you too" but has to be this way for now or SOMETHING. We only got silence .........sorry off topic.
Staying off topic just for a second....in the SS there was much more from Ennis at this point (something like "moving closer, undoing buttons") For some reason, Ang decided to show this only in Ennis sleeping with his arm round Jack...
However, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It wasn't Ennis's way to respond in words: here he responds to Jack's statement by holding him through the night while in the motel scene (yay! brings it back on topic!) he responds to all the sweet things Jack says by stroking Jack's arm affectionately.
That just seemed to be Ennis's way.
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Yes, Ennis was never into articulating his love in words. The motel room scene is a wonderful example -- more subtle than the reunion kiss.
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I noticed during the motel scene how intently Ennis listens to Jack while he is talking. I never get the impression Ennis was that way ever with Alma or Cassie.
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ALA, "Jack, i swear-" he could not say anymore, because he couldn't bring the words out. The truth hurts.
I found it ironic that Ennis breaks down because Jack lays everything out in the lake scene, but does not breakdown when Jack is dead. I think this is a illusion to the hard truth. No matter how much we wanted to believe it, Ennis would never be able to say 'i love you'. He could not hear the truth, it hit him some place deep, maybe even harder than the death of Jack. Most of you are willing to argue this point, but isn't the message of the movie 'things don't turn out the way you want them too' or 'the truth hurts'?
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ALA, the motel. I wish we could of just got Ennis pushing Jack down on the bed, and tearing one clothing off-that would of been enough :d)
Well,we really can imagine that by ourselves.
Thar's why Ang Lee directing is so superb with an understatement of every move they take ... he just hint and you have to guess the rest,not throwing everything in your face .
I've written two scenes following the reunion kiss scene: one driving to the motel; the other is in the motel room before the scene in the movie begins. Where can I post them? (They might be too hot for the forum, though.)
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Ive written two scenes following the reunion kiss scene: one driving to the motel; the other is in the motel room before the scene in the movie begins. Where can I post them? (They might be too hot for the forum, though.)
If you really think that they are "too hot for this forum," I can suggest livejournal.com where they have communities of brokeback slash, wranglers, and even jakeslash.
I wouldn't mind reading them and could offer some commentary. Although the fan fiction section in this forum may accept them, I've found great pieces there.
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I've written two scenes following the reunion kiss scene: one driving to the motel; the other is in the motel room before the scene in the movie begins. Where can I post them? (They might be too hot for the forum, though.)
You should definitely create a livejournal and post your chapters there. I don't know how you get the links to them onto Brokebackslash or Wranglers - you could send a PM to amtamburo and ask here as she's done it before. You also have to post links to your stories in the FanFic section of this board....there are some real fanfic junkies over there (myself included) and we're always looking for new stuff to read.
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I've written two scenes following the reunion kiss scene: one driving to the motel; the other is in the motel room before the scene in the movie begins. Where can I post them? (They might be too hot for the forum, though.)
You should definitely create a livejournal and post your chapters there. I don't know how you get the links to them onto Brokebackslash or Wranglers - you could send a PM to amtamburo and ask here as she's done it before. You also have to post links to your stories in the FanFic section of this board....there are some real fanfic junkies over there (myself included) and we're always looking for new stuff to read.
I for one will be very happy to read... ;) Go for it!
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I first saw BBM 2 wks ago and I'm hooked! I lost count how many times I've seen it on HBO. There's 1 line I just can't understand..... In the motel scene after Jack says "I swear to God I didn't know we was gonna get into this again".....WHAT DID HE SAY? Just can't make it out :s)....oh by the way..... Dig that quote by Alma, after Enis said "he's from Texas"......"TEXANS DON'T DRINK COFFEE?"
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he said:
Hell yes I did. Red lined it all the way, couldn't get here fast enough. What about you?
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Welcome, smitten.
The movie has a lot of dialogue that is difficut to understand even after multiple viewings. It helps a bit reading the screenplay, as this comes close to the film.
Also, there are many things said that one can miss because they were said so softly or too quietly. Please check a number of threads about what people heard or thought they heard in the various scenes.
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I d, "Oh yes I did. I redlined it....