Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: browneyes on Jul 04, 2006, 08:38 AM
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Doesn't anyone agree that Jack was not going to go through with living w/Randall. I just don't think Jack would abandon Ennis. I think even though Jack & Randall knew each other for 5 years (and had occasional sex). Ennis was always the love of Jack's life. Randall was just someone he could have sex with when the cravings got too bad.
What do you all think?
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Randall is second best, if he's that. Kind of makes you feel sorry for him - he's the man who isn't Ennis.
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Yeah, sometimes I get so mad Jack was w/Randall for 5 years. But ultimately Ennis is the love of his life. I think Jack just had sexual desires he needed fulfilled and Randall was closer than Mexico.
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I agree . Randall was a cool sip of water . Ennis is the waterfall. How could he stand LaShawn?
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Who knows? Maybe Randall didn't want to have a life with Jack either. The way he came on to Jack, it seemed to me he wanted sex. And so did Jack somewhat. It was like they were in a bar and Randall is looking for a one night stand he can keep coming back to. But surely after being with Jack for 5 years there were probably some feelings. But if Jack was going to move to his father's Ranch with Randall I think it would be to make Ennis jealous. If Jack really wanted to move on with his life he wouldn't stay in a place just miles away from Ennis. Thats why I think Jack would do that just to make Ennis jealous. I think Randall probably knew Jack had a significant other in Wyoming. Jack probably told him. Ennis was the dealbreaker, not Randall.
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Who knows? Maybe Randall didn't want to have a life with Jack either. The way he came on to Jack, it seemed to me he wanted sex. And so did Jack somewhat. It was like they were in a bar and Randall is looking for a one night stand he can keep coming back to. But surely after being with Jack for 5 years there were probably some feelings. But if Jack was going to move to his father's Ranch with Randall I think it would be to make Ennis jealous. If Jack really wanted to move on with his life he wouldn't stay in a place just miles away from Ennis. Thats why I think Jack would do that just to make Ennis jealous. I think Randall probably knew Jack had a significant other in Wyoming. Jack probably told him. Ennis was the dealbreaker, not Randall.
I totally agree, browneyes. Randall was Jack's f**k buddy, IMO. Maybe Jack, at some point, thought he could move on from Ennis with Randall. Obviously, it didn't work. Jack wished he knew how to quit Ennis. Jack laments at the last meeting with Ennis that he can't. Says to me that Randall is nothing but beans to Jack, and we all know Jack won't settle for beans. If Jack would've lived, there's no way Randall would've replaced Ennis.
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Thank you. But it just kills me that someone can have a f**k buddy for 5 years off and on. However it is possible (I see it on the Maury show all the time). The look on Jack's face when Randall told him about the cabin is priceless. He was obviously thinking about Ennis. So even if he was with Randall, it couldn't stop him being in love with Ennis. That's why he saw Ennis every chance he got. But I wonder how Randall felt through all this? Did he know Jack had a significant other? Did Randall fall in love with Jack at some point (like Cassie did Ennis)? That's what really eats at my mind. But Randall was lucky he knew for sure Jack was gay.
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My personal feeling is: it is a good thing that Ang Lee edited out the supposed scene between Randall, Jack, and the mechanics -- it certainly would have been to much for me to bear.
No wonder Jake Gyllenhaal gave his sad assessment of Jack's faithfulness. He must have given it in light of certain deleted scenes...
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Thank you. But it just kills me that someone can have a f**k buddy for 5 years off and on. However it is possible (I see it on the Maury show all the time). The look on Jack's face when Randall told him about the cabin is priceless. He was obviously thinking about Ennis. So even if he was with Randall, it couldn't stop him being in love with Ennis. That's why he saw Ennis every chance he got. But I wonder how Randall felt through all this? Did he know Jack had a significant other? Did Randall fall in love with Jack at some point (like Cassie did Ennis)? That's what really eats at my mind. But Randall was lucky he knew for sure Jack was gay.
I reckon Randall probably did fall in love with Jack. We know that he wasn't happy with LaShawn - when him and Jack first meet, you can tell that he's annoyed with her talking and the way she is. Also, when Ennis goes to see Jack's parents, Jack's dad mentions that Randall left his wife and Jack mentioned to his dad about the plans he had for him and Randall to move in and "lick the ranch into shape". That, to me, sounds like Randall was in love, otherwise he probably wouldn't have left LaShawn.
I dunno if Randall knew about Ennis - I doubt Jack would have told him, cos that I think that Jack felt that his relationship with Ennis was private. I also don't think that he would have told the guy that he was "with" that he had another guy. Maybe Randall found out later on? Who knows.
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I don't think Jack's dad mentioned Randall left LaShaun. He told Ennis Jack's plans and they were: Jack's going to bring Randall, Jack's gonna split up with his wife, and go back to his dad's ranch. But it never came to pass. That doesn't necessarily mean it didn't come to pass because Jack died. It could mean maybe even Randall didn't want a life with Jack too. Or Jack knew in his heart he wouldn't be happy with Randall. But Jack's dad never mentioned that Randall left his wife, if he was he would say someting like "They're gonna split up with their wives". But he only refered to Jack who had a plan to leave his wife. Who knows maybe randall did love Jack, or maybe he and Jack made an agreement to keep their relationship physical and don't fall in love. Because Jack sure as hell couldn't fall in love with Randall.
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You don't have to fall in love with sopmeone who's just a sexual partner -it's not a law of nature. I always assumed Randall was gay and knew it, and that LaShawn was just a convenient cover-up - hello, ranch-foreman, hello ranch-foreman's wife, how conventional and normal. I assume that because she drives me nuts, she drives every man within range nuts as well, and Randall was just what she settled for because that was what she could get.
As for Jack taking Randall to Lightning Flat, who knows? I tend to think it was just one of Jack's ideas - in reality would his father have put up with having him there with one of his " friends"? It would be pretty hard to hide the relationship stuck out on the ranch with no-one much else around.
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You don't have to fall in love with sopmeone who's just a sexual partner -it's not a law of nature. I always assumed Randall was gay and knew it, and that LaShawn was just a convenient cover-up - hello, ranch-foreman, hello ranch-foreman's wife, how conventional and normal. I assume that because she drives me nuts, she drives every man within range nuts as well, and Randall was just what she settled for because that was what she could get.
As for Jack taking Randall to Lightning Flat, who knows? I tend to think it was just one of Jack's ideas - in reality would his father have put up with having him there with one of his " friends"? It would be pretty hard to hide the relationship stuck out on the ranch with no-one much else around.
I tend to agree that the bringing Randall up to LF was just one of Jack's big ideas. All throughout the movie, we see what a big dreamer Jack is and how his ideas never come to pass: The calf and cow operation with Ennis; his rodeo career; the idea of Ennis moving to Texas. So, following this pattern, it's not such a leap to say that Jack's idea to bring Randall up to LF is just one of the times he is "thinking out loud." I don't think Jack could've followed through with it though; I don't think he would've been happy with Randall, and Jack knew it. Jack's heart had decided on Ennis long ago.
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I agree. If he was happy with Randall (assuming they had an affiar for 5 years). Then Jack wouldn't keep seeing Ennis everytime he got.
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After being rejected so often by Ennis, Jack may have seen Randall as at least another possibility, and a more acceptable one than staying in an empty marriage with a woman more obsessed with money than her family. Randall made the first move, showed an interest ( as Jack once did with Ennis), was available, relatively near, and camouflaged by being married to a sort of Southern belle type- LaShawn reminds me of some of the dimmer females in"Gone with the Wind" - didn't have any of Ennis's complications. when ennis wasn't there and wasn't going to be there for lengthy periods, maybe Randall just filled the gap and didn't seem too bad until Ennis was there again, at which point he faded into insignificance. They led pretty compartmentalized lives, after all.
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This scene where there inside the dance hall gets me . It seems like Jack has to rescue Randall's ass from LaShawn's endless rambling on and on by asking her to dance. By this time everyone is sqirming and embarassed by her endless chatter about the " pokey little town of Childress".......etc. Jack locks eyes with the uncomfortable Randall and figues he needs a break. IMHO for sure.Outside later Randall comes on to Jack after he figures it's safe, Gaydar maybe? I don't know but Jack gets the pictue,and judging by his facial expression ,He's thinking about Ennis.OR.... He's thinking d" does'nt anyone do anything but fish"? and how would he explain another " fishin buddy " to Lureen? Smiles.
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In another thread somewhere, someone noted that Jack does not look directly at LaShawn when he says, "You wanna dance"; in fact, he may be looking at Randall.
Other possible motivations to dance with LaShawn: he snubs Lureen, who's being a bit *meow* at the moment, and he is a good dancer, who shows off his physique to Randall during the dance. (Randall would be expected to/excused for looking at the man dancing with his wife...)
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Maybe he should've tripped everybody out and asked to dance with Randall. Just kiddin.
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It all loooks rather hasty on the screen, but LaShawn in the middle of the prattle says that Jack and Lureen have rescued them when their pickup broke down, and presumably brought them to the dance, so they must have got to know each other already; you wouldn't exactly have to make conversation with LaShawn around. If you spent any time with Jack and Lureen, I should think the vibes would be obvious; Lureen's picking at Jack and patronising LaSahwn + wouldn't take a genius to see that Randall just puts up with LaSahwn - so maybe Randall had already figured out he could make a move on Jack.
*o)There's also a hint of the broken-down pickup/accident tale Lureen tells Ennis about Jack's death.
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i don;t think jack loves Randall 1/4 aas much as he does to Ennis..
they are together for 5 year just because Jack needs a guy whom he can always see, and Randall has had enough of his wife...
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I don't know whether he loves Randall at all. This relationship always seems to be one of expediency more than passion.
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I don't know whether he loves Randall at all. This relationship always seems to be one of expediency more than passion.
Some people fall in love with the idea of marriage, rather than with the partner. I do think ity is similar in the case of Jack with Randall. He so desperately wanted to share a life with somebody else -- to care and be cared for. He probably had some affection for Randall, but it was not the form of deep love that Jack had for Ennis.
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Randall represented stability for Jack IMO. A ranch foreman, settled,and easy to talk to. Something had to be there for him to stay 5 yrs with him. But it was nothing commpared to the love he had for Ennis. By this point Ennis and Jack have long history together. He really knew Ennis, and continued to meet him throughout the affair with Randall In the last meeting Jack lies to Ennis about the affair, saying it was LaShawn he was seeing. to me this implies that Jack was keeping Randall on the back burner in case he decided once and for all Ennis would'nt or could'nt share the sweet life he so desparately wanted.Even took Randall to meet his parents on Lightning Flat.
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Randall represented stability for Jack IMO. A ranch foreman, settled,and easy to talk to. Something had to be there for him to stay 5 yrs with him. But it was nothing commpared to the love he had for Ennis. By this point Ennis and Jack have long history together. He really knew Ennis, and continued to meet him throughout the affair with Randall In the last meeting Jack lies to Ennis about the affair, saying it was LaShawn he was seeing. to me this implies that Jack was keeping Randall on the back burner in case he decided once and for all Ennis would'nt or could'nt share the sweet life he so desparately wanted.Even took Randall to meet his parents on Lightning Flat.
If Randall did in fact acquiese to live a shared life with Jack, then at least for that, he deserves Jack's affection, if not his deep love. Thanks, aintfoolin.
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Yes, stability and an alternative to Ennis if necessary seems right. So one should feel sorry for Randall too, just another person caught up in the Jack and Ennis thing who ended up with only part of someone's affection - like Alma and Lureen.
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Yes, stability and an alternative to Ennis if necessary seems right. So one should feel sorry for Randall too, just another person caught up in the Jack and Ennis thing who ended up with only part of someone's affection - like Alma and Lureen.
How many times in real life do we find that a marriage for convenience takes precedence over romantic love? Don't get me wrong: love can certainly take root on the soil of pragmatism, and romantic love can be naive and foolish. But too many times, true love is spurned due to an inability to dream...
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You're assuming than that what Jack and Ennis have is, to quote the slogan, the real thing . Certainly Lureen was to some degree a marriage of convenience and Randall a liaison of convenience and what about the guy in Mexico - a physical release of convenience? I can see Jack in two ways ( like those Elizabethan pictures that look different from either side) - either he's so highly sexed he can't cope and will take whoeverhe can get if Ennis isn't there, or he knows he's met the love of his life and since he can't be with him is thrashing around trying to find something to dull the pain - which is where Randall comes in, maybe.
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You're assuming than that what Jack and Ennis have is, to quote the slogan, the real thing . Certainly Lureen was to some degree a marriage of convenience and Randall a liaison of convenience and what about the guy in Mexico - a physical release of convenience? I can see Jack in two ways ( like those Elizabethan pictures that look different from either side) - either he's so highly sexed he can't cope and will take whoeverhe can get if Ennis isn't there, or he knows he's met the love of his life and since he can't be with him is thrashing around trying to find something to dull the pain - which is where Randall comes in, maybe.
Randall is the opiate to dull the pain. :) :( :\'(
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You're assuming than that what Jack and Ennis have is, to quote the slogan, the real thing . Certainly Lureen was to some degree a marriage of convenience and Randall a liaison of convenience and what about the guy in Mexico - a physical release of convenience? I can see Jack in two ways ( like those Elizabethan pictures that look different from either side) - either he's so highly sexed he can't cope and will take whoeverhe can get if Ennis isn't there, or he knows he's met the love of his life and since he can't be with him is thrashing around trying to find something to dull the pain - which is where Randall comes in, maybe.
Randall is the opiate to dull the pain. :) :( :\'(
When Randall starts talking about going out to the house on the lake to do a little fishin', drink a little whisky... "Ya know?"... Jack knows what Randall means, but the look on his face, in his eyes... is all about Ennis, he's thinking of Ennis even if he does take Randall up on his offer later on out of loneliness.
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I totally agree with this. But does anyone notice that when jack can't be with Ennis He has a pattern of getting it somewhere else{IT, meaning sex}. He won't be denied. Is Jack a slut? or is he normal?
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Thanks frances and aintfoolin.
Jack's reaction to frustration with Ennis is not strange to me. I suspect his case is more common in real life than with Ennis. We should note that what makes Jack so poigniant a chanarcter is the all too human element in his actions and his all so familiar failings. He is a mirror of what life can be when denial and frustration take their toll. He is truly human -- achingly so.
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I suppose your right.
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I suppose your right.
I don't think there is really a wrong here. Sure, Jack was more sex-driven. But we can all relate to that. We feel the same pain and the need for release.
Thanks aintfoolin for bringing this up.
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I suspect his case is more common in real life than with Ennis. .[/b]
You're definitely right!
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I suspect his case is more common in real life than with Ennis. .[/b]
You're definitely right!
Why is it always easier to give in than it is to resist? Did Jack even try to resist? From the look on his face when Randall "proposed" the fishing trip to him, I would say: yes. To me, he had Ennis in mind at that moment. He was hesitating on what to do. To me, he somehow felt that in many ways, he was Ennis's, body and soul -- something that could be easily given away. And yet, I think he did give in to his desires inevitably.
What is the demarcation line? What balance played between faithfulness and betrayal? For Randall was no anonymous Mexican husler that signified a threat to his love for Ennis. Perhaps he initially approached this without any serious intention of getting emotionally involved. But Jack's oblique confession to Ennis in their last meeting about an affair with the "ranch neighbor's wife" certainly tells us that his involvement with Randall was beginning to rankle him inside.
The complexity of Jack's character is beautiful to contemplate. The relationship with Randall is but one glittering facet in this flawed gem.
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Tpe. I totally doubt Jack took Randall up to see his parents. I think he was just mentioning Randall to his Dad out of anger (right after the final meeting with Ennis). His Dad says it like Jack was just talking about another fella not that the actual guy ever came. According to Jack's dad he said Jack is gonna "split up with his wife". If Randall ever came to the parents house. I think his dad would say something like "they're both gonna split up with their wives". Maybe Randall wasn't even aware Jack told his parents that he was planning to move up their with him.
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Tpe. I totally doubt Jack took Randall up to see his parents. I think he was just mentioning Randall to his Dad out of anger (right after the final meeting with Ennis). His Dad says it like Jack was just talking about another fella not that the actual guy ever came. According to Jack's dad he said Jack is gonna "split up with his wife". If Randall ever came to the parents house. I think his dad would say something like "they're both gonna split up with their wives". Maybe Randall wasn't even aware Jack told his parents that.
I agree. I do think he never brought Randall to Lightning Flat. Randall may not have been aware of Jack's family history.
But whether the intent was there or not -- this remains ambiguous.
For me, this is the beauty of Jack's character. He is very close to what we think of as "life".
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I am so sorry tpe. I thought u wrote that Jack brought Randall up to meet his parents, it was actually aintfoolin . I'm sorry.
Well, aintfoolin! I don't think Jack ever brought up Randall to his parents house.
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Can I just say I don't really like Randall??
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Can I just say I don't really like Randall??
Who does? ;)
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Can I just say I don't really like Randall??
But you must be dragged into the quagmire of discussing him. :)
Joking aside, I can't tell exactly how or what I feel about the character. He is shadowy to me...
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I just hate how he came on to Jack and how Jack was interested. It's just like "JACK, what about Ennis?". But I guess at the same time Ennis started something with Cassie. Jack knows he's gay, so he wants to have sex with a guy. Ennis thinks he is straight, so he will get a girl[Cassie].
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I just hate how he came on to Jack and how Jack was interested. It's just like "JACK, what about Ennis?". But I guess at the same time Ennis started something with Cassie. Jack knows he's gay, so he wants to have sex with a guy. Ennis thinks he is straight, so he will get a girl[Cassie].
But the case of Cassie really isn't the same, no? It seemed to me that both Ennis and Jack did not feel threatened by relationships between their lover and other women. Had Ennis taken up with another man, I am sure it would have set Jack on fire... Whether Ennis was capable of doing this or not touches on a discussion of sexuality, which is conveniently located in another thread...
Thanks browneyes.
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You're right. I guess thats why I get mad at Jack for having a relationship with another guy instead of getting mad at Ennis. It just makes me upset whether Randall and Jack were just f**k buddies or if their were feelings (even though I doubt it). I just read in cosmopolitan about how guys can have a sexual partner/relationship for years and not have any emotional feelings for them.
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You're right. I guess thats why I get mad at Jack for having a relationship with another guy instead of getting mad at Ennis. It just makes me upset whether Randall and Jack were just f**k buddies or if their were feelings (even though I doubt it). I just read in cosmopolitan about how guys can have a sexual partner/relationship for years and not have any emotional feelings for them.
To be sure, there seem to be relationships driven less by emotions than by sexual needs. It upsets me too, to contemplate even the possibility of Jack feeling for Randall on a more deeper level. But the mere fact that we are both upset by this tells us a lot of how much their love has become a part of us. True Art can do this...
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I totally agree. But whether he had feelings for Randall or not, the fact that he kept the shirts tells us everything we need to know. After the last meeting with Ennis, Jack was probably angry and disappointed. If it was me i probably would've burned those shirts. But Jack was so in love with Ennis, he kept the shirts. I think Jack probably realized he couldn't have a life with Randall because: 1) He wouldn't be happy and 2) He would've still seen Ennis every chance he got. The only time Ennis and Jack were even close to happy was when they were together, and the only time they were truly happy was on Brokeback.
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The only time Ennis and Jack were even close to happy was when they were together, and the only time they were truly happy was on Brokeback.
This is the faith I keep, in beauty and in sadness. I cannot prove, nor can I fathom. I only know that this I see.
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Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?
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In the screenplay it says it was '81. However it's probably incorrect. In the short story it was May of '83. Which is spring. Thats why I believe Jack told his Dad about the other fella, out of anger right after the meeting with Ennis. Because Jack's Dad said "this spring". Which is wy I think he told the parents about Randall out of anger. I don't think he went all the way back to Texas, got Randall, went all the way back to Wyoming, and said "Dad this is another fella...", and then he went all the way back to Texas (and eventually died)???
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Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?
This is a tricky question.
If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it is most likely that:
1. The last meeting took place in the fall of 1981.
2. Jack came back in the spring of 1982 to Lightning Flat to inform his parents of his intention to divorce Lureen and move back with Randall.
3. Jack died sometime early summer of 1982.
4. Ennis's visit to Lightning Flat occured in the fall of 1982.
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Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?
This is a tricky question.
If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it is most likely that:
1. The last meeting took place in the fall of 1981.
2. Jack came back in the spring of 1982 to Lightning Flat to inform his parents of his intention to divorce Lureen and move back with Randall.
3. Jack died sometime early summer of 1982.
4. Ennis's visit to Lightning Flat occured in the fall of 1982.
I have always been puzzled with Jake Gyllenhaal's comment in an interview about Jack bringing Randall back to Lightning Flat with him. From the final cut of the movie, it is clear that Randall never got to Lightning Flat. Was Gyllenhaal perhaps privy to a cut scene from the movie that actually showed Randall going up with Jack to Lightning Flat? Perhaps the "accident" intruded along the way? Pure speculation on my part...
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Just wathed the scene to clarify. Mr. Twist says "then this spring got another fella gonna come up here with him, help run the ranch"....etc. I don't know if this means that Randall actually came up or not . it' not really clear. In the last scene with Ennis and Jack , what time of year was it then? Anybody know? Spring?, summer?
This is a tricky question.
If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it is most likely that:
1. The last meeting took place in the fall of 1981.
2. Jack came back in the spring of 1982 to Lightning Flat to inform his parents of his intention to divorce Lureen and move back with Randall.
3. Jack died sometime early summer of 1982.
4. Ennis's visit to Lightning Flat occured in the fall of 1982.
Sorry to disagree, tpe, it seems to me that the last meeting took place in may 81 (just before the promised august) and the visit at Lightning Flat went immediatly after (Jack told Ennis of his purpose)...
Time line is a "goddamn b** of a unsatisfactory thing" in the screenplay, so we may have not to bother about it.
Jack did not spent 4 years with that shadow of Randall. We must keep to the film, and the film only: remember what we see, the face of Jack, full of sadness, Jack is dying without Ennis! Immediatly after that is the last camp and that is what matter. The path of time is not realistic in this movie! Jack is trying to hook Ennis and Ennis is so proud to talk about Cassie "look, I'm no queer" So Jack tell him what he want to hear "look, me neither" and immediatly after the TRUTH, sometimes, I miss you so bad... Randall has nothing to do with that. Who speaks of Randall, that is John Twist who is pure hatred and he does it to wound Ennis, he tried to destroy!
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So Melanos. You don't think Jack was with Randall at all? However, I think the date of thier last meeting was May of '83. Like the short story.
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[Sorry to disagree, tpe, it seems to me that the last meeting took place in may 81 (just before the promised august) and the visit at Lightning Flat went immediatly after (Jack told Ennis of his purpose)...
Time line is a "goddamn b** of a unsatisfactory thing" in the screenplay, so we may have not to bother about it.
Jack did not spent 4 years with that shadow of Randall. We must keep to the film, and the film only: remember what we see, the face of Jack, full of sadness, Jack is dying without Ennis! Immediatly after that is the last camp and that is what matter. The path of time is not realistic in this movie! Jack is trying to hook Ennis and Ennis is so proud to talk about Cassie "look, I'm no queer" So Jack tell him what he want to hear "look, me neither" and immediatly after the TRUTH, sometimes, I miss you so bad... Randall has nothing to do with that. Who speaks of Randall, that is John Twist who is pure hatred and he does it to wound Ennis, he tried to destroy!
Mélanos, there is a thread where this entire problem has been discussed with some hand-wringing! :(
The screenplay says that Jack's death occured in 1982 and that the last meeting in 1981. If Jack died in 1982, then the projected November meeting could not have been in November of 1981. The projected meeting will then be November of 1982.
Since snow was mentioned in the last meeting, there are only 2 possibilities:
1. spring of 1981
2. fall of 1981
If the projected meeting is set for November of 1982, then fall of 1981 would be the most likely and reasonable date for the last meeting. This still gives a WHOLE YEAR between the last meeting and the projected meeting...
I also believe that Jack tried to keep his affair with Randall in check -- perhaps even trying to avoid it for most of the intervening years.
And yes, the dates are problematic. But we can arrive at one reasonable scenario for the screenplay dates, and this is discussed in the thread dealing with the timeline of the last scenes.
I throw up my hands in despair!
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I think their last meeting was in May; as his cover story was always that he was going to see his parents, I assume Jack went on to Lightning Flat and full of rage, frustration, misery, told his parents that he might be going to leave Lureen and might be bringing another rancher up with him to work the ranch, the two not necessarily too clearly connected.
AS far as Randall goes, there is a point when, if you're involved in an intensely physical affair, your sensitivities are much greater than normal and it sems almost impossible to exist without some physical connection with someone; maybe Jack's in that state and Randall happens to be convenient. I think Jack is evidently more highly sexed than Ennis anyway - Ennis seems to be intensely physically involved with Jack when Jack's there, but able to shut off his need for him when he's not.
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"I also believe that Jack tried to keep his affair with Randall in check -- perhaps even trying to avoid it for most of the intervening years"
what does that mean, sorry.
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"I also believe that Jack tried to keep his affair with Randall in check -- perhaps even trying to avoid it for most of the intervening years"
what does that mean, sorry.
That he consciously made an effort to avoid going with Randall on these fishing trips. :) I wouild have preferred NEVER, but from Jack's oblique confession, it seemed that he did by then go out with Randall...
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I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".
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I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".
browneyes , I am not really sure about the "I want sex" part of it. It seemed to me that he had a blank stare, and I had always interpreted this look as an indication that he was thinking about Ennis.
There is one other look that approximates this look in the Randall scene: the first dance with Lureen. Here, in the midst of the dance with Lureen, he is thinking of Ennis -- at least this is my interpretation...
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I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".
Or rather... Randal says "I want someone to f*uck" and Jack thinking "oh my" imo :)
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I understand what you're saying. So u think he probably didn't see Randall often? I guess that would make sense the way they were talking outside on the bench. It was kind of like, Jack said "I want sex" and Randall was like "me too".
browneyes , I am not really sure about the "I want sex" part of it. It seemed to me that he had a blank stare, and I had always interpreted this look as an indication that he was thinking about Ennis.
There is one other look that approximates this look in the Randall scene: the first dance with Lureen. Here, in the midst of the dance with Lureen, he is thinking of Ennis -- at least this is my interpretation...
I agree tpe...
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I didn't quite mean it like that. I mean think about it, why would Jack initiate a conversation outside with Randall? Why would he ask to dance with his wife? Its obvious Jack wanted to get Randall's attention.
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Or just get away from the situation that Lureen's creating by getting at him and at LaShawn? Lureen's being a rich bitch and patronising LaShawn like crazy; dancing with LaShawn may just seem an easier option. It's also very reminiscent of Jack dancing with Lureen and Ennis dancing with Cassie - funny how what is often seen as a representation of harmony and pattern in this movie turns out to be the opposite.Randall seems to me to be keeping a low profile, as if he's afraid to get involved with the sniping of the two women, but once he's alone with Jack just puts a fairly clear proposition to him. Maybe he's as desperate as Jack was when he tried to pick up Jimbo.
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I didn't quite mean it like that. I mean think about it, why would Jack initiate a conversation outside with Randall? Why would he ask to dance with his wife? Its obvious Jack wanted to get Randall's attention.
Well, Randall was certainly trying to make eye contact in the beginning of the scene, and I did get the impression that Jack noted it, but really didn't seem that interested. As for dancing with Randall's wife, I rather interpreted it as a way of getting back at Lureen for her snide remark -- as attested by her chastened look after Jack rose to dance with Lashawn.
But I should emphasize tht there is probably no single interpretation to this scene. Your interpretation is as good as mine, because of the subtlety of the story and the amiguity preserved in the movie realization. We should all cherish and appreciate this for what it allows us to envision and discuss. It probably reveals more about ourselves than about the characters we seek to interpret.
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Yes, Randall did make eye contact with Jack (and a rather suggestive smile). But Jack initiated conversation with Randall outside. Why would Jack do that?
And Tpe, you don't think Jack saw Randall often?
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Yes, Randall did make eye contact with Jack (and a rather suggestive smile). But Jack initiated conversation with Randall outside. Why would Jack do that?
And Tpe, you don't think Jack saw Randall often?
Hello browneyes. :)
I thought the initiation of talk was for politeness sake. Silence is sometimes deafening to some people and they would rather talk than brook silence. Jack could have felt awkward being silent seated right next to a new acquaintance and therefore initiated a conversation. This is a possibility -- not a fact.
As for seeing Randall often, I can say what I feel as opposed to what really is. How I feel: yes, I wish inside of me that Jack did not see Randall that often (well at least, initially), As to what really is: we shall never really know...
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I guess that is a possibility when it comes to the conversation. So do u think Jack could love Randall like Ennis? For the love of God say no!
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I guess that is a possibility when it comes to the conversation. So do u think Jack could love Randall like Ennis? For the love of God say no!
Indeed I say this with relish: no. :)
It's a matter of faith, I guess...
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I guess that is a possibility when it comes to the conversation. So do u think Jack could love Randall like Ennis? For the love of God say no!
I say it too. No way in h**l
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I don't think he saw Randall that often. I'm sure when Jack was about to go off with Ennis he would avoid Randall like the plague and probably for a little while after the trip with Ennis. Probably out of guilt, but then out of satisfaction that he saw Ennis/or was gonna see him.
You know what I mean?
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I don't think he saw Randall that often. I'm sure when Jack was about to go off with Ennis he would avoid Randall like the plague and probably for a little while after the trip with Ennis. Probably out of guilt, but then out of satisfaction that he saw Ennis/or was gonna see him.
You know what I mean?
Yes, I had always felt that Ennis was everything for Jack. Jack would drop everything to be with Ennis.
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I totally agree. Thats why Jack kept going back to Ennis. He was never happy with Lureen, the Mexican prostitute, Randall or anyone the only time he was ever happy was when he was with Ennis. And even if he did try and make a life with Randall, he would've dropped Randall like a bad habit if Ennis agreed to build a life with Jack.
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Hello Browneyes, Welshwitch and Tpe... that topic is quite interesting because of the question of the Randall affair still puzzle me. It seems to me that dancing is a very important thing in the movie, on Brokeback Jack and Ennis begin a kind of dance, like in chinese cinema (remember "Hidden dragon, crounching tiger"), later Jack dance with Lureen (and seems quite happy, that is not a convenience wedding) aqnd Ennis with Cassie (but never Alma). Dance means desire, that is the question of Lureen. The answer of Jack is to dance with LaShawn... What do you think of that? that is exactly what he told to Ennis... Later, when he speak of his sexuality it is "hardly never", with whom?
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Thats why I don't think he saw Randall often because he said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get". I think that proves he tried not to cheat on Ennis but when the "cravings" got too bad, he saw either Randall or a prostitute.
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Hello Browneyes, Welshwitch and Tpe... that topic is quite interesting because of the question of the Randall affair still puzzle me. It seems to me that dancing is a very important thing in the movie, on Brokeback Jack and Ennis begin a kind of dance, like in chinese cinema (remember "Hidden dragon, crounching tiger"), later Jack dance with Lureen (and seems quite happy, that is not a convenience wedding) aqnd Ennis with Cassie (but never Alma). Dance means desire, that is the question of Lureen. The answer of Jack is to dance with LaShawn... What do you think of that? that is exactly what he told to Ennis... Later, when he speak of his sexuality it is "hardly never", with whom?
Hmm. A bit O/T, but this is a really interesting point. I don't really see Jack and Ennis as being that happy dancing with Lureen and Cassie, more going through the motions of courtship.
Great topic this BTW. Randall is one character i tend to avoid as i find him a little unnerving. Don't know why but he makes my skin crawl a little. Maybe it the blatancy of his advances towards Jack, whereas Ennis was more the sort to be drawn out BY Jack, Randall seemed to do all the running. Maybe there is some truth to the old adage, if it's handed on a plate? I don't really blame Jack for it - i wonder if in a way it was a getting back at Ennis - it gave Jack a little bit of comfort knowing that somewhere he could call the shots because Randall was so easy?
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Hello Browneyes, Welshwitch and Tpe... that topic is quite interesting because of the question of the Randall affair still puzzle me. It seems to me that dancing is a very important thing in the movie, on Brokeback Jack and Ennis begin a kind of dance, like in chinese cinema (remember "Hidden dragon, crounching tiger"), later Jack dance with Lureen (and seems quite happy, that is not a convenience wedding) aqnd Ennis with Cassie (but never Alma). Dance means desire, that is the question of Lureen. The answer of Jack is to dance with LaShawn... What do you think of that? that is exactly what he told to Ennis... Later, when he speak of his sexuality it is "hardly never", with whom?
The Randall affair certainly puzzles me too, and I am sure there are deleted scenes dealing with this subject. It is really hard to encircle one's arms around this, although I find your idea of the significance of dancing quite intreiguing and perhaps a possible germ for another interesting thread...
There must be something more to many of the dancing scenes in the movie, no?
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To me it appears that the dance is over and they're gettingready to leave evidently by Jack's remark about women powdering their nose just to go home and go to bed. They both seem nervous to me . Searching for something to say, when Jack initiates the conversation about Randall's future boss "good ole boy". Obviously, Lureen and LaShawn are in the ladiess' room and they' waiting outside.Jack seems uncomfortable with Randall at this point but there seems to be an underlying message here that Jack knows that Randall wants somthing. I think Jack knows the (comon is coming) Anyone else get this feeling?. And who suggested they wait outside? JacK? Randall? Reading bteen the lines and filling in the blanks inthis movie can be FUN!
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Than makes sense. Its possible Jack knows Randall wants something. When Randall looked at Jack and smiled I bet he was thinking "how would this guy look without any clothes on?".
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The couple Malone is just like a miror picture of the Twist'. LaShawn is a caricature of Lureen, and Randall... well I think that if Jack is not at ease, it is because he see a caricature of himself. Jack has been a good boy and built what Ennis told him to built, a good Texas cow-boy... what he see is a Marlboro cow-boy bought by a spoiled girl! Of course I'm quick, and above all Jack is mourning Ennis!
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Now THAT'S what Im talkin about!
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What do u mean by "Jack is mourning Ennis" ???
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Undressing Jack with our eyes? Yeah. Yeah YEAH.
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Thats why I don't think he saw Randall often because he said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get". I think that proves he tried not to cheat on Ennis but when the "cravings" got too bad, he saw either Randall or a prostitute.
The "needin' something I don't hardly never get" line could mean specifically intimacy with Ennis. Jack needs to be intimate with Ennis and hardly ever gets to be. So, he has to scratch the itch with a poor sub for Ennis, such as the prostitute or Randall.
I think Jack wasn't looking for a chance to be alone with Randall or anything when they set outside on the bench waiting for their wives. Jack, to me like TPE said, was just making social conversation with Randall when Randall crudely, IMO, asked him to meet for sex. Jack looked pretty taken aback to me. Maybe Jack was just shocked there was another closeted man in his midst,and one not as closed off as Ennis. Jack didn't look all that thrilled to me, like "hot damn, now I can get me some sex anytime I want." I think Jack, at that moment, thought of Ennis and felt lonely for Ennis sitting there with Randall. He wished it was Ennis there instead of Randall.
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Jack obviously had a much higher sex drive than Ennis, and needed to satisfy it in anyway he could, since Ennis wasn't around (and in Jack's eyes, that's Ennis's choice) Jack has to make do with, as stacp put it, poor subs. Randall, being a neighbour, was just more convenient than having to go to Mexico every time it got too much for Jack.
I don't like saying this, but I don't think the scene at the dance is all one-sided. Jack is all too aware that Randall's interested in him, and when he returns his look, he's not exactly trying to discourage him. But I agree that when they're outside, he's thinking of Ennis, and I like the comparison with the scene where he's dancing with Lureen, it has that same feeling of "well, I'm never going to get what I want, so I might as well settle for what's on offer" :( Randall's words probably didn't help either, suggesting they "get away,drink some whiskey, do some fishing..." that's exactly what he and Ennis did (well, they never actually did any fishing, but you know what I mean ;)).
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I am amazed that Randall is quite a key to a lot of our own complex feelings about Jack. A good thread. Great posts.
Thanks all.
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Why is it that these guys can joke around about sleeping with other women,but if it's another man they're eady to kill each other? Is there a double standard here or am I missing something? Is it the threat because they're gay and seeing another man may more likely jepordize the relationship? If I'm in love, I don't share with ANYBODY. Please help me understand this. I may sound judgemental towards Jack but......... What's going on here?
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Why is it that these guys can joke around about sleeping with other women,but if it's another man they're eady to kill each other? Is there a double standard here or am I missing something? Is it the threat because they're gay and seeing another man may more likely jepordize the relationship? If I'm in love, I don't share with ANYBODY. Please help me understand this. I may sound judgemental towards Jack but......... What's going on here?
Here's my take on it, for what it's worth. ;) Ennis, in particular, is in total denial about his homosexuality. Jack knows this. So, in order for Ennis to be okay with meeting Jack and continuing their affair, Ennis tells himself that he and Jack are just a couple of heterosexual men who happen to have sex once in a while. Jack implicitly agrees to keep up the charade, knowing that he would spook Ennis if Jack ever laid all the cards on the table, e.g., admitting he was gay and telling Ennis he loved him. So, Ennis and Jack continue their "posturing" throughout their relationship, pretending to be straight. Ennis tells Jack about his fling with Cassie, who he obviously doesn't know squat about, and Jack pretends to be having an affair with LaShawn. Ennis needs this charade to continue to feel like they "ain't queer." So, in a way, he wants to hear Jack is banging women. This means they're really heterosexual, right? But, deep down, they both know what lights each other's fires and that's men. So, I think both Jack and Ennis could go out and sleep with hundreds of women. No big deal. It's no threat to either of them or their love. But if Ennis hears Jack is sleeping with other men, then, whoa, what a second, that's a threat. Ennis knows Jack really wants a man. So, Ennis turns into a green eyed monster. These two really needed couch time with Dr. Phil. (^)
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It's hard to understand this line of rationalized thinking on their part. Jack must be pretty angry at Ennis deep inside huh I love these two characters but I have questions about Jack's fidelity.If he understands Ennis and loves him , he would wait right? And Ennis should try to see it Jack"s way alittle harder too As always IMHO.
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Sorry Browneyes, I was too sleepy to stay online and Stacp I'm Ok with most of what you say, the "charade" part!
The grieving of Jack is in two steps. Well, it is my point of vue, a little particular maybe, so be patient, it might be long! After the second meeting we see Jack getting better and better when Ennis is getting down. After the divorce it became the opposite. Jack went to Riverton in pure excitation and he made two mistakes:
- First he went because he thought he could be a cure for his friend's pain and he discover he is the cause
- Second he asked his way at ten persons.... his place was "out of nowhere" not in Riverton, see how Ennis see the car that pass away
So there is a break, the dance is over, Jack received his second bad punch. He is not going to Mexico by lust, he is trying to quit Ennis! Jack is an abused child (remember what hapened when he was four years) and like all the abused children he is in the power of the hangman, John, his father. Ennis is the opposite, he is under his power too, but that is the way of life. With Ennis, he is like a child and he could not bear to be forlorn a second time. In Mexico, he try to be a man, he is not having sex or fun (look his face), he take the post of his father and he, himself, will abuse a child, the hustler, a willing one. First step of mourning, he takes a mustache a virile attribute but loose he smile, we shall never see him happy after.
The second step is during the stroll that follow. Jack try again to cure Ennis of his sadness, as always he jokes of himself, of his life in Texas, and it goes. For a moment Ennis opens himself and speak of his fear, that is the only time! But Jack is afraid now and his answer is elusive. He said "maybe you should leave" and he he would have said "Yes, I know that fear, when I met again Aguirre I was so terrified that I ran away down to Texas" Ennis understand that Jack is joking with him and burst out in rage.... "Jack, f** Twist". It all tenderness at the second meeting but now it is a leaving. Jack understand that he will never be anymore the cure for Ennis and that was the core of his desire for him. That is why he is not only grieving, he is dying: Randall is too late, Jack has not enough life in him... "sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it!" that is not a figure of style, that is pure truth
As I said, it is my point of view, others are possibles!
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The Randall affair is a compromise and part of reality. Ennis is the ideal, but unattainable, like most dreams. Jack's a dreamer and clings to the dream; he's also a realist, and settles, unhappily I think, for what he can get as a poor substitute in the real world of Childress. I don't think he'd try to make a connection with another man there - too close too home, too well-known as a salesman and LD's son-in-law - but if the opportunity presents itself unasked for, welll, that might be different.
AS for going outside, I'd assumed the party was breaking up and while LaSahawn and Lureen went off to tart themselves up and go on bitching, the two men wanted to get away from the crowd/noise/out into the fresh air/near to the car ready to go home.
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I agree that Jack was hoping Ennis was there instead of Randall. Jack just got so desperate and lonely. Randall probably had other sex partners too, so that would probably mean Jack couldn't see him often.
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I agree that Jack was hoping Ennis was there instead of Randall. Jack just got so desperate and lonely. Randall probably had other sex partners too, so that would probably mean Jack couldn't see him often.
Hardly never!
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Poor old Randall, now he's promiscuous/unfaithful/whatever. Maybe the guy is just stuck in an empty marriage - no-one could love LaSahwn - but knows what he is and what he wants, which he sees in Jack. Maybe he jst sets eyes on Jack and can hardly believe waht he sees.
(Actually he gives me the creeps - I think he looks like one of the undead.)
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Poor old Randall, now he's promiscuous/unfaithful/whatever. Maybe the guy is just stuck in an empty marriage - no-one could love LaSahwn - but knows what he is and what he wants, which he sees in Jack. Maybe he jst sets eyes on Jack and can hardly believe waht he sees.
(Actually he gives me the creeps - I think he looks like one of the undead.)
Welshwitch, one more time you hit the score!
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Randall and LaShawn, what a pair.No wonder he went after Jack.LaShawn just won't shut up.Just watched this again and Jack IS looking at Randall when he asks LaShawn to dance . Jack must have been desperate! for affection. Ennis , where are you bud?
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Why is it that these guys can joke around about sleeping with other women,but if it's another man they're eady to kill each other? Is there a double standard here or am I missing something? Is it the threat because they're gay and seeing another man may more likely jepordize the relationship? If I'm in love, I don't share with ANYBODY. Please help me understand this. I may sound judgemental towards Jack but......... What's going on here?
I think it is partly because both Ennis and Jack understand that for them to survive, they have to blend in -- in a society that expects them to consort with women and be interested in marrying and raining families. I do think this was a question of survival in an environment hostile to homoerotic relationships. This is just my opinion...
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Poor old Randall, now he's promiscuous/unfaithful/whatever. Maybe the guy is just stuck in an empty marriage - no-one could love LaSahwn - but knows what he is and what he wants, which he sees in Jack. Maybe he jst sets eyes on Jack and can hardly believe waht he sees.
(Actually he gives me the creeps - I think he looks like one of the undead.)
Welshwitch, one more time you hit the score!
:)
I feel sorry for Randall. After all, he might just be another Ennis waiting to find his Jack... But please: NOT OUR JACK!
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I feel sorry for Randall. After all, he might just be another Ennis waiting to find his Jack... But please: NOT OUR JACK!
Very good point tpe... I never thought of that, he is just like Jack and Ennis, he might be bi but... he is clearly not happy in his marraige and looking for something, anything to make him feel whole I guess... at lest someone that will see him :)
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I feel sorry for Randall. After all, he might just be another Ennis waiting to find his Jack... But please: NOT OUR JACK!
Very good point tpe... I never thought of that, he is just like Jack and Ennis, he might be bi but... he is clearly not happy in his marraige and looking for something, anything to make him feel whole I guess... at lest someone that will see him :)
He certainly kept to himself in a way very similar to Ennis. But there must be so many differences between them: Randal was clearly College-educated. Would this have been a plus or a minus with reference to Jack, I wonder? And yes, perhaps Randall was also bi. But I could never picture Ennis doing the same oblique proposal that Randall made to Jack... Randall was probably less traumatized than Ennis.
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But I could never picture Ennis doing the same oblique proposal that Randall made to Jack... Randall was probably less traumatized than Ennis.
No, but I don't think Randall would have made a pass at JAck had he beenhappilřy married..didn't strike me as that type...
Damn.. I no longer despise Randall...
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But I could never picture Ennis doing the same oblique proposal that Randall made to Jack... Randall was probably less traumatized than Ennis.
No, but I don't think Randall would have made a pass at JAck had he beenhappilřy married..didn't strike me as that type...
Damn.. I no longer despise Randall...
I really wonder how our feelings would have changed if we actually saw some of the deleted scenes that involved him and Jack. If we knew a bit more about this -- whether he loved Jack or not -- we could react more clearly.
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Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.
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Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.
Very good point, aintfoolin. We are so protective of the Jack and Ennis love. I didn't want anyone to come in between them. To me, the idea of Randall loving Jack or Jack having any type of feelings for Randall just diminishes the love story between Jack and Ennis. I know that it wouldn't change the fact that Jack and Ennis were the love of each others' lives, but I just don't want to figure Randall out. I want to leave him as the cheesy guy who met Jack and, an hour later, says "let's get together and f***k." I am glad Ang left the movie so we could interpret Randall in this way.
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Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.
Very good point, aintfoolin. We are so protective of the Jack and Ennis love. I didn't want anyone to come in between them. To me, the idea of Randall loving Jack or Jack having any type of feelings for Randall just diminishes the love story between Jack and Ennis. I know that it wouldn't change the fact that Jack and Ennis were the love of each others' lives, but I just don't want to figure Randall out. I want to leave him as the cheesy guy who met Jack and, an hour later, says "let's get together and f***k." I am glad Ang left the movie so we could interpret Randall in this way.
Oh, you two are soo right on... Jake and Heath are great. Jack and Ennis belonged together.. :( :(
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I don't have a problem with Randall, or indeed anyone, loving Jack - he is a lovable character. ut we tend to be committed to the concept of Jack and Ennis as great lovers; you can't imagine Romeo or Eloise getting involved with someone else when faced with obstacles between them and theone they love, so you don't want to see Jack doing so either.
But Jack is more like real life, full of compromises and unsatisfactory solutions-that-aren't, and the slow death of the heart that they cause.
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I don't think Randall ever loved Jack. There might've been feelings, maybe. But how can u love someone, when the other person is deeply in love with someone else? And, believe me, you would know if that person didn't love you. And above all, there men, with men there can be little or no emotions ina relationship, sometimes. With Ennis and Cassie its different, Ennis was using her as a cover-up. I just couldn't even imagine Jack even laughing when he was with Randall. But he could with Ennis.
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How can you love someone when that person is deeply in love with someone else?
In a word, easily.
It's not only men who get involved in relationships to which they have no emotional commitment....
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As I understand Jack and Ennis there is no opposition between what they share together, wich is pure passion, and the bind they have with women. Ennis was realy in love with Alma, in the beguining at last: just look at them in their honeymoon travel in the mountain and after, in the little cabin. Thir love stumble on the question of violence, Alma is afraid (see the firework scene). Ennis believe that his desire is dangerous, that why he leaves... or rather push Alma to leave. With Cassie? it could have been, it not a simple cover, Ennis is not cynical.
Jack is realy in love with Lureen, see how they dance, how they look one to the other. Ennis and Jack do need their homosexual bind to be able to have heterosexuality... I have met bisexual men who were like that. Jake said that, in his mind, Lureen know and has always known, she is not afraid, she understand that like a way. Herself had some problem to be separated from her father... Randall, it would have been quite an other problem that why I think there was nothing or nearly nothing with Jack. Even when you are at the diet you may have a look at the menu?
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As I understand Jack and Ennis there is no opposition between what they share together, wich is pure passion, and the bind they have with women. Ennis was realy in love with Alma, in the beginning at last: just look at them in their honeymoon travel in the mountain and after, in the little cabin. Thir love stumble on the question of violence, Alma is afraid (see the firework scene). Ennis believe that his desire is dangerous, that why he leaves... or rather push Alma to leave. With Cassie? it could have been, it not a simple cover, Ennis is not cynical.
Jack is realy in love with Lureen, see how they dance, how they look one to the other. Ennis and Jack do need their homosexual bind to be able to have heterosexuality... I have met bisexual men who were like that. Jake said that, in his mind, Lureen know and has always known, she is not afraid, she understand that like a way. Herself had some problem to be separated from her father... Randall, it would have been quite an other problem that why I think there was nothing or nearly nothing with Jack. Even when you are at the diet you may have a look at the menu?
I agree that there was no competition for the kind of love Jack and Ennis shared. Theirs was a soulmate, love of your life type of love that, IMO, never wanes but only gets stronger over the years. But I don't really know if Ennis was in love with Alma and if he pushed her to leave because of his violent tendencies. I will agree there was a degree of love or affection between Alma and Ennis in the beginning; the sledding scene for example, shows them having fun and being playful (although I think this scene was also included to show Ennis trying to rough-house with Alma like he did with Jack). But I really didn't see Ennis as pushing Alma to leave the marriage; if anything, I think Ennis would've stayed with her until the bitter end. Alma was the mother of his children, and Ennis' claim to a normal, heterosexual life. Yes, he gave up sex with her, but you'll notice there are tears in his eyes at the divorce hearing. I think he is genuinely sad they are divorcing. In the short story, it is Alma who says "what the hell am I doing here" and leaves. Ennis wasn't the ideal husband by any means, but I don't know if he consciously pushed her toward divorce. If Jack is really in love with Lureen, well I just didn't see it. I think he was fond of her and maybe loved her in his own way, but I don't see a deep love between them. When they were dancing, yes they were laughing at first, but then Jack gets that faraway look in his eyes like he is thinking about and longing for Ennis (similar to the look Ennis gives when Alma has her arms around him in the bedroom scene). This of course is just my interpretation. ;)
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I feel the same, Flwrchild; Ennis has fun in the snow with Alma, but there's nothing lasting about that - later he mostly seems to be doing what he thinks he has to do - working, helpimg with the kids - but doing the bare minimum and devoting his free time and energy to Jack. The same is true, I think, of Jack and Lureen; Jack's highly sexed and maybe treats Lureen an one outlet for his desires, but she isn't what he wants and if there ever was love between them it erodes pretty quickly - even in the scene with the new baby she's much more involved with the baby and her parents than she is with Jack. They never settle into a sort of routine affection, either; she's too tied up with making money. Randall could, if you wanted to look at it that way, be seen as a Lureen substitute, filling in the Texas space for Jack, but never even verging on the Brokeback one.
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Lureen and Jack had more of a friendly marriage than a loving one. There was alot of different reasons for Jack to be with her, I dont't think the love was there. They liked each other alot in the beginning but Jack was always dealing with with his feelings forE nnis through out this. therefore this marriage never got the chance to grow L.D. did'nt help either berating him every chance he got. I don't think the baby was a planned thing either.Jack was just going with the program until Ennis came to his senses. unfortunatly he did too late. IMHO
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Melanos, I totally agree with u. But when u say there was little or nothing there with Jack or Randall do u mean feelings/emotions or sex (in other words, no sexual affair)?
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Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bioscop.cz%2F_web%2F_filmy%2Fb_zkrocena_hora%2Ffotografie%2F130_zkrocena_hora.jpg&hash=38cbcb96f2d45304e5a46e3a999673468f96ce26)
But tho' a thousand hearts there be,
To you their adoration owe;
In this you are as poor as we,
You have but one you can bestow.
'Tis this that gives me all my care,
Whilst trembling for my doom I stand;
'Tis this that racks me with despair,
For fear I should not be the man.
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I don't have a problem with Randall, or indeed anyone, loving Jack - he is a lovable character. ut we tend to be committed to the concept of Jack and Ennis as great lovers; you can't imagine Romeo or Eloise getting involved with someone else when faced with obstacles between them and theone they love, so you don't want to see Jack doing so either.
But Jack is more like real life, full of compromises and unsatisfactory solutions-that-aren't, and the slow death of the heart that they cause.
I do not have the strength to condemn Randall. Jack is indeed a loveable character. If I were in Randall's shoes, I would move the world to have him.
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Thanks to all the replies...
- Stacp, mine is just another point of view. I Think violence is the core of Ennis'problem. The meeting with the bear announce it and after the first relation with Jack, he is terrified, that is the meaning of the eviscerated sheep. Adult and male sexuality is linked for him with the identification with his murderous father. What is extraordinary for him with Jack it is is that Jack is not afraid, Jack does not see him as the monster he feel being. For him the first step to love is being gratefull! Jack made him speak, made him laugh, made him alive!
- Welshwich, I imagine love between Alma and Ennis as a quiet thing. Of course that is because of Jack that he is able to love, and the mointain scene is quite a copy of Brokeback. I think that, in his little cabin, Ennis is happy: he succed! He is building a family in the little ranch he lost after the death of his parents. Again he is gratefull but this story is going to fail. Alma is a city girl, she tries to get Ennis in her quiet little dream with Riverton and the parish and Ennis is truly a man of nature
- aintfooling, I think that for Jack and Alma it is different. The problem of Jack is his inability to access to malness and adulthood. Ennis was the first one to treat him like a man, to let him lead, to see him as a human personn and not a clown (remember Jimbo) Lureen is the second one, she made him win in rodeo (before the meeting he was a looser). After the birth of Bobby, when the awfull L.D. tries to deny the fatherhood of Jack, she sent a wink, she is on his side, right beside her she has a great picture oh them both. Lureen in the film has nothing to do with the one of the SS and few with the one of the screenplay. Of course Jack laugh at her when he talk of her way with the zeros on the machine but he is tring to lighten up Ennis and he did the same thing on Brokeback: he joked about rodeo wich was the most sacred thing for him! Jack has divided his life in parts that never meet
- And, last but not least, browneyes, Randall! I believe we must not be impressed by the time line of the screenplay: in the film time is "special", the bal in Childress is just before the last meeting. Let us forget those three or five years: we don't see them in the film so they don't exist! Randall was just a meeting, but too late, much too late
In fact, I pooled all the answers, sorry! and thank you foryour patience with my oddities!
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But tho' a thousand hearts there be,
To you their adoration owe;
In this you are as poor as we,
You have but one you can bestow.
'Tis this that gives me all my care,
Whilst trembling for my doom I stand;
'Tis this that racks me with despair,
For fear I should not be the man.
Beautifull poem, tpe, I don't kown if anyone, man or woman, could stay zen besides Jack... just look this picture and look this grin!, Jack, all in black, for what mourning? Lureen all in white, like a death angel, she seems to be bored! Jack, the little ranch hand, is at the top of his glory with the upper class of Childress and everything is hollow... does he smiles to Randall? no, he snarls, he is trying to stay awake, he plays with fire, he dance with LaShawn, he light up Randall... Poor Randall, in what mess he went!... nice guy... not very bright... not a beauty, what can you think Jack did?
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But tho' a thousand hearts there be,
To you their adoration owe;
In this you are as poor as we,
You have but one you can bestow.
'Tis this that gives me all my care,
Whilst trembling for my doom I stand;
'Tis this that racks me with despair,
For fear I should not be the man.
Beautifull poem, tpe, I don't kown if anyone, man or woman, could stay zen besides Jack... just look this picture and look this grin!, Jack, all in black, for what mourning? Lureen all in white, like a death angel, she seems to be bored! Jack, the little ranch hand, is at the top of his glory with the upper class of Childress and everything is hollow... does he smiles to Randall? no, he snarls, he is trying to stay awake, he plays with fire, he dance with LaShawn, he light up Randall... Poor Randall, in what mess he went!... nice guy... not very bright... not a beauty, what can you think Jack did?
Thanks Mélanos.
You know, the red wine in that pic is so blood-red. One almost sees in the mind's eye the hunter and the hunted...
The other pendant (Randall is probably looking at Jack, no?):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bioscop.cz%2F_web%2F_filmy%2Fb_zkrocena_hora%2Ffotografie%2F131_zkrocena_hora.jpg&hash=e935382afc26163ec1188593463efdbde43f63f7)
Waken lords and ladies gay,
To the greenwood haste away;
We can show you where he lies,
Fleet of foot and tall of size;
We can show the marks he made
When 'gainst the oak his antlers frayed;
You shall see him brought to bay;
Waken, lords and ladies gay.
(Sir Walter Scott)
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And LaShawn is looking at him, and Randall is looking right past her at Jack. Maybe Jack offers to dance with LaShawn to get away from a look that might be giving something away? It always seems a very abrupt invitation to me.
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And LaShawn is looking at him, and Randall is looking right past her at Jack. Maybe Jack offers to dance with LaShawn to get away from a look that might be giving something away? It always seems a very abrupt invitation to me.
This thought did occur to me...
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Jack could also be doing it to spite Lureen, I suppose - he hasn't apparently danced with her - or he could be trying to get her away from Lureen to deprive Lureen of the chance of more put-downs but there seems to be more to it. Let's face it, he's not doing it to enjoy her intelligent conversation. While they are dancing his expression is interesting, too, a sort of unchanging "social" smile that betrays total lack of interest in her. Maybe he's giving Randall a chance to size him up, just as he did when he met Ennis.
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If you look at the scene where he dances with LaShaun he keeps looking back at the table. I think he notices that Randall is looking at him and thats why Jack is looking back. Kind of like a "is this dude looking at me?", type of thing. I do it sometimes where I'm off somewhere and you can just tell someone's looking at you. So you keep on looking back. I think most of us can relate to that.
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Thanks Mélanos.
You know, the red wine in that pic is so blood-red. One almost sees in the mind's eye the hunter and the hunted...
The other pendant (Randall is probably looking at Jack, no?):
Waken lords and ladies gay,
To the greenwood haste away;
We can show you where he lies,
Fleet of foot and tall of size;
We can show the marks he made
When 'gainst the oak his antlers frayed;
You shall see him brought to bay;
Waken, lords and ladies gay.
(Sir Walter Scott)
That is exactly that!!! they are going to dance the last dance, the last play of rodeo and guess who is the bull? the same filly that would never throw him...I can already see the little stain of red upon Lureen's finger!
Maybe Randall saw that too, maybe like Jack himself he was so sensitive that he could see death coming and he could stop to make a last try...
I would liike to know as much poetry!
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Jack Twist -- the name is very apt. He rides Love if only to stay on the saddle. Such is the image one sees with respect to Ennis and Randall.
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But Tpe, do u agree with what I said about Jack looking back at the table?
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But Tpe, do u agree with what I said about Jack looking back at the table?
browneyes, I did notice this, so it is quite plausible. He may have been trying to avoid Randall's intense gaze. Or perhaps he was trying to catch Randall's attention. This is a bit hard to read precisely. But I do think that it is quite plausible.
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And LaShawn is looking at him, and Randall is looking right past her at Jack. Maybe Jack offers to dance with LaShawn to get away from a look that might be giving something away? It always seems a very abrupt invitation to me.
I agree with you here. At one point, while the eye contact is going on, Jack looks at Lureen, and she gives him a cold, nasty look, I think Jack realised she was picking up on the vibes between him and Randall, and thought a bit of space was needed. I'd love to know what Randall and Lureen were talking about while Jack and LaShawn were dancing! ;)
I also don't have a problem with Randall having feelings for Jack (who could blame him?), and I don't have a problem with Jack having Randall as a casual sex partner, I don't think it touches what he has with Ennis. A lot of people can separate sex from love, Jack is one of them, and it doesn't take anything away from his love for Ennis, however many men he sh*gs, imo. What I do have a problem with, is the implication that Jack had any deeper feelings for Randall, beyond sex, and that he planned on moving to Lightning Flat with him, that would take something away from Ennis and Jack's love, so as far as I'm concerned, it never would have happened.
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I agree. I think Jack just said that out of anger and frustration. Because we all know Jack wouldn't have been happy with Randall. If he was, he would've stopped seeing Ennis when he met Randall in '78.
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Jack did seem to agree to " as long as we can ride it" right? Maybe at some point Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum Not necessarily to be with Randall , but to find someone to share his " sweet life" with After all he's spent years waiting or is he too hopelessly in love with Ennis. Did Jack settle? Personally I don't Jack would have been happy with anyone else but Ennis. Just a thought.
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If you're so much in love and so hopelessly, you'll agree to anything. I don't think for a minute his involvement with Randall impinged on Jack's feelings for Ennis; I even think he could have taken him up to Lightning Flat and it still wouldn't have meant much. If Ennis had been ready to commit to him, Jack would have instantly forgotten Randall.
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Jack did seem to agree to " as long as we can ride it" right? Maybe at some point Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum Not necessarily to be with Randall , but to find someone to share his " sweet life" with After all he's spent years waiting or is he too hopelessly in love with Ennis. Did Jack settle? Personally I don't Jack would have been happy with anyone else but Ennis. Just a thought.
Imagine, aintfoolin, I suppose your not the kind to be fooled, but would you agree to wander a little? What is this "sweet life", if not the "good life together", the little ranch with cow and calf operation... but Jack is so loose, absent minded when he tell that to Ennis? And when Ennis turn away he does not seem depressed, it is him who comfort Ennis! Maybe Jack the dreamer is anable to dream, to dream alone in fact. Jack is no man of ranch: big car, big watch, big ring... good life mean money and that is what he went in Texas to look after! The man of the little ranch, the Wyoming cowboy is Ennis. Jack is a very sensitive man, he felt the fantasm, the idea of the ranch inside Ennis: that is the dream of Ennis he is telling aloud... and that is the dream Ennis refuses!
Jack can't dream without someone, Ennis, or John, two different way to see the little ranch! two different dreams, life or death!
Jack is not only waiting, he is living by Ennis. Ennis does not let go to the heart of hid dream, inside the ranch, because of the violence he believe there is inside... so they live outside the ranch, in the mountain, in the nature, "way the hell out in the back of nowhere"... With the time Ennis get more and more "paranoďac", after the misunderstanding following the divorce he withdraws, he is closing upon himself and Jack is more and more famished, weakening. Jack could not stand anymore and, of course, he could not have dream he "sweet life" with any other man. When he see Randall, something sparkles in him, but it's too late: he see (I think) what could have been an other story, easier maybe, but Jack is bound!
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In which case Jack is, to pick up an idea from another thread, unselfish in that the dream he presents to Ennis is intended to fulfill Ennis's, not his own, fantasies. Then the question is whether he's have given up the relative comfort of life in Childress to go back to working on a ranch. Randall, however, raises the same question. He's a ranch foreman - would he have given that up to go and be a ranch-hand in Lightning Flat? Ennis would have done; Jack never actually suggests that to him, andit occurs to me that it might have overcome Ennis's inhibitions if he'd been going up to Jack's parents' place to help them out. They wouldn;t then have been so obviously two men living together, just a son and his friend helping out the family - I suppose it could have appeared or been presented to Randall like that too.
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In which case Jack is, to pick up an idea from another thread, unselfish in that the dream he presents to Ennis is intended to fulfill Ennis's, not his own, fantasies. Then the question is whether he's have given up the relative comfort of life in Childress to go back to working on a ranch. Randall, however, raises the same question. He's a ranch foreman - would he have given that up to go and be a ranch-hand in Lightning Flat? Ennis would have done; Jack never actually suggests that to him, andit occurs to me that it might have overcome Ennis's inhibitions if he'd been going up to Jack's parents' place to help them out. They wouldn;t then have been so obviously two men living together, just a son and his friend helping out the family - I suppose it could have appeared or been presented to Randall like that too.
I'm afraid the only dream for Jack is rodeo: dance with death! John is the bull, remembedr him facing Ennis, pure hatred... nothing of this idea could have happend, it's a dream of death and when Jack tell his father he is going to bring Ennis he is playing a dangerous game! John was never contented with his son, so Jack bring him a man, a real one for a strugle to die. John is a direwolf, the guardian of Hell's door, but the mother is an other question: she is a prisoner! Perverse always have two victims, child and mother. Jack never stopped to go to Lightning Flat because of his mother... It is only the death of Jack that gave boldness to Ennis, strenght to go to Lightning Flat where John tried to destroy him and used Randall to do it.
When Jack came back from the lake he knew he was to die: it was the only way to keep Ennis alive (why don't you?). In a symbolic way John is the real killer, Jack told him about Randall to spare Ennis wich then was an old affair... Remember Aguirrer was a family"s friend and John "knew" about Brokeback mountain. With Randall Jack could have sees another dream, maybe Mexico?
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Mélanos, what interesting metaphors you have here. Whether or not they are true, they do make me think about allegory and symbolism in BBM. The story is strong enough to survive multiple overlays. It can speak to us in many different, very personal, levels of truth and meaning.
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Jack's dream was to one day own and operate a. ranch with Ennis. All I'm saying is that After so much time would we blame Jack if found another to share that dream with if he decided that Ennis was never going to come around. It does'nt neccessesarily have to be Randall. Could be someone else. Jack and Ennis are ranch people they know the life and dream of owning teir own someday Jack wants to share hhis with Ennis and I believe Ennis wants the same with Jack, but is too afraid to help Jack fulfil that dream.What Jack may have in mind is to take Ennis, Randall or whom ever it might be to LF, to "whip that place into shape" Then eventually build a "sweet life" there . I believe John Twist, Jack"s father would have not ever fully accepted Jack bringing one of his lovers there but would have appreciated the help that Ennis or Randall could offer. They are both skilled in running ranches and John could have reluctantly been swayed enough to allow this. Especially if Jack's mom could have had some input.I think he hated his son's lifestyle deep inside loved his son.Even thogh Jack lived a privilaged life in Texas, his roots were in ranch work. Besides it was all due to Lureen"s family that he had money,not something he built for himself, which is what he really wanted with Ennis,TO RIDE WITH NO REINS.
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We cannot blame Jack, nor can we shut the door to the possibility of Jack finding a life with someone else.
But dreams die hard. Most dreams are forgotten when the dreamer wakes. But others linger till the dreamer sleeps the final sleep.
For me, Ennis is Jack's dream of love. Whether the dreamer wakes or sleeps the final sleep, I know that the dreamer lives.
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We cannot blame Jack, nor can we shut the door to the possibility of Jack finding a life with someone else.
But dreams die hard. Most dreams are forgotten when the dreamer wakes. But others linger till the dreamer sleeps the final sleep.
For me, Ennis is Jack's dream of love. Whether the dreamer wakes or sleeps the final sleep, I know that the dreamer lives.
Thanks tpe, that's great!
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i think randall was just some he could have sex with nothing more
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We never know his fate, either - i suppose the mob who killed Jack could have done the same to Randall if he was known to be Jack's partner.
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I wonder sometimes if it wasn't Randall's fault that Jack was killed. Randall doesn't seem to be as discrete as many he should be - I mean, he propositions Jack the first time he meets him which seems a bit odd. And he suggests that they go to his boss's cabin....so someone else knows that Randall is there, even if he doesn't know that Randall has someone with him. I guess it all depends on what being a "good ole boy" means....does it mean conservative and therefore unlikely to approve (or even tolerate) homosexuality? Can anyone enlighten me, 'cos I honestly don't know?
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I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...
~Julie~
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I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...
Part of me agrees with you TeddybearEyes. But what was Lureen going to do, go out and buy a strap-on dildo? Jack needed something Lureen couldn't give him. Masturbation wouldn't have helped him either and I don't think a vibrator dildo would have helped. So, the only alternative was other men.
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You guys haven't heard from me in a while, sorry! Remember, Jack knew Randall for 5 years, and yet he still saw Ennis everytime he got. That proves that he was still miserable w/out Ennis, he loved him, and he was unhappy. If Jack was happy with Randall, he would've said bye-bye Ennis. But he didn't, he saw Ennis everytime he got. Even if he tried to move on with his life with Randall, he would've still saw Ennis and probably give Ennis an ultimatum. Which I'm sure Ennis would have no choice but to agree to, if he found out Jack was living with another man. That would've showed Ennis that Jack is really getting serious now.
And like I said in another thread I see a lot of similarities of the Ennis/Cassie, Jack/Randall thing. I personally think Jack broke it off with Randall when he got back to Texas (like Ennis did Cassie). Because Jack didn't want to upset Ennis anymore. Maybe Jack knew whatever he did he couldn't be happy. That could be a reason why the idea, John Twist told Ennis about never came to pass. But there is no doubt Jack would've demanded changes with Ennis if he lived for the November trip.
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I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...
~Julie~
Hello Julie. I am actually in the opinion that Randall and the Mexicao incident enrich the story, and that Jack "cheating" on Ennis is the other part of the equation that drives the whole story (the other being Ennis's unwillingness to share a life with Jack). I think we should note that it was Jack who was waiting for Ennis for the good part of 20 years -- his flings with other men are manifestations of his increasing frustration: a phenomenon all too familiar in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships.
We shaould also take note that it is not the physical gratification that drives Jack to Ennis deep down: it is Jack's love for Ennis, his need to be with him and share a life together. All too easily, we tend to focus on the physcial aspect at the expense of that which drives the physical attraction in the first place.
That Jack tried to find some kind of release with other men would have most likely NOT happened if Ennis had agreed to share a life of love with Jack. I am glad that Ennis did NOT agree to this: the story that is BBM would have been infinitely poorer has this been the case.
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Jack... the solitary soul, he need a suportt to his life when Ennis was so far, Randall is not the way he (jack) is looking, is only a gas station in the rute to Ennis
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I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...
Part of me agrees with you TeddybearEyes. But what was Lureen going to do, go out and buy a strap-on dildo? Jack needed something Lureen couldn't give him. Masturbation wouldn't have helped him either and I don't think a vibrator dildo would have helped. So, the only alternative was other men.
Well there is such a thing as abstinence, but Jack obviously wasn't capable of that. Ennis could make it on a couple of high altitude f***s once or twice a year, while Jack could not. I do think the affairs with other men were a physical release for Jack, much as Ennis' wringing it out. They were both human, with human flaws. Nothing was easy.
Julie, I must admit Jack's affair with Randall bothers me. It seemed to be a longer term "affair," while the sex with the prostitutes was just a one night, sex thing. I guess I just wanted Jack to be with Ennis and nobody else! But I think the movie is clear, IMO, that Jack only loved Ennis and could only be happy and satisfied with Ennis.
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My personal feeling is: it is a good thing that Ang Lee edited out the supposed scene between Randall, Jack, and the mechanics -- it certainly would have been to much for me to bear.
I have heard the film was released, shown to thousands, withdrawn, cut by 6 minutes and re-released.
Is this true? Does this explain the tubby shot of jack in the trailer, and the garage men?
^*()
And there are stories about a van full of hippies? :s)
Anyone know about this?
Saul
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Saul, I trust that all the deleted scenes will all be given in the new deluxe edition of BBM that will come out in 2007. In this way, we will have a better understanding of Ang Lee's different ideas about Jack's end and his relationship with Randall.
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Saul, I trust that all the deleted scenes will all be given in the new deluxe edition of BBM that will come out in 2007. In this way, we will have a better understanding of Ang Lee's different ideas about Jack's end and his relationship with Randall.
Delux edition! &**) Suuuuper! I will pre-order as soon as it is released! That will be wonderful, I just can't get enough of BBM.
Will this be in HDDVD?
Saul
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OOT: Saul, you are after my own heart! ;) But I don't know if it will be HD... They should...
I do hope they include all the Randall scenes. It will be informative, especially to this discussion.
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Anyway, while we are all awaiting the delux DVD, what is known about those cut scenes?
They are of course all over and above the story, but they are still facinating.
Saul
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Saul, I trust that all the deleted scenes will all be given in the new deluxe edition of BBM that will come out in 2007. In this way, we will have a better understanding of Ang Lee's different ideas about Jack's end and his relationship with Randall.
I hope it does.
I'd love to know what happend in the end between them.
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This is very clever marketing from Focus.
Release a film, withdraw and cut it, re-release the film but keep the old trailer as a tease, then finaly release the whole lot anyway at a premium. Then once again in HD once when more people have the technology to play it.
Its the best one since new formula Coke.
Yet with a product that is so damn good, I cannot wait to pre-order!
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Anyway, while we are all awaiting the delux DVD, what is known about those cut scenes?
They are of course all over and above the story, but they are still facinating.
Saul
I probably know as much as you do; in particular, the scene pertaining to the mechanics, Jack and Randall (and as you had mentioned, the hippie scene). I wonder if there were more cut scenes involving Randall -- say, scenes showing he and Jack at the cabin of Randall's boss. Perhaps Randall was not so shadowy in Ang Lee's mind. But in any case, he did finally opt for ambiguity and kept just 2 scenes with Randall.
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Ang evidently wanted to keep the first part, on the mountain, untouched, although it's long and some critics said ( having missed the point rather) that iit's slow. But to have shortened that ( and he's have had to if the movie wasn;t going to become too long as a whole) and include more scenes of Jack and Randall would have upset the balance of the movie and detracted from the uniqueness of the Jack and Ennis scenes, IMO. The Ennis and Cassie scenes are different - the realtionship, if it's physical, is not with another man;they also relate to Alma Jr. I think Randall needs to be merely a hint, a suggestion, rather than a major fact in Jack's life.
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I am glad the BBM scenes have not been shortened. Anything but that. The film seems slow, but all the same you woosh through nearly twenty years in two hours with very good continuity. The big dipper ride grabs you with alternating hope and dispair.
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Been lurking and reading alot but for the small part Randall had in the film, he is significant beause he was one of Jack's lovers on the side. I still have yet to figure how he knew Jack was gay and that it was alright to come on to him. Jack's at the table with his wife Lureen although its obvious that their marriage had "cooled" but how in the hell did Randall know? Aside from the straring between these two, I don't see any signs of flirting. Gaydar maybe? I did'nt see it.
I'm still waiting for the Director's Cut. ....come on Ang your audience awaits.
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They wer particularly circumspect during the dinner. Randall was bolder, to be sure. His stares were very intense, no? Fleeting, but intense. I am sure Jack knew what those stares meant.
I do think it is gaydar -- or something like that.
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The way Randall came on to Jack was all done with double meaning. There was not one word which could be taken as not literally meaning what was said, as if sex were not on the menu and that it could always be taken that Jack had a dirty mind, reading things into what was not there, if Jack by chance took offence.
Just how it is in real life when married men get off with eachother. Its never "lets go off and !*#!". Its usually more $) & :f).
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The way Randall came on to Jack was all done with double meaning. There was not one word which could be taken as not literally meaning what was said, as if sex were not on the menu and that it could always be taken that Jack had a dirty mind, reading things into what was not there, if Jack by chance took offence.
Just how it is in real life when married men get off with eachother. Its never "lets go off and !*#!". Its usually more $) & :f).
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Frandall.jpg&hash=9acba49f9046024dd88e53abf81db6e39584b2fb)
If Jack/Jake looked at me like that, I would be thinking "Yay, it's my lucky night!!" ;D And it wasn't just the once, the looks were going back and forth between them, but that's all it was, just looks, so they weren't being too blatant, but just enough to make sure each of them knew what was on the other's mind ;) And the scene outside, Randall doesn't actually suggest anything other than just two buddies going fishing for the weekend (which is exactly what Jack and Ennis did, as far as anyone else is concerned), but they were both on the same wavelength enough to know what it really meant ;) I also think when Jack says about women powdering their nose to go home and go to bed could have been a hint that Randall picked up on, the reason most women would powder their nose (as in fixing their make-up/hair) when leaving a party would be to look attractive to go home and go to bed with her husband, the fact that Jack didn't realise, or care, that that was what Lureen was doing would have implied to Randall that Jack wasn't all that interested in Lureen sexually (especially when you add it to Lureen's comment about husbands not wanting to dance with their wives).
On the subject of Randall, excited as I am at the thought of the deleted scenes on the new DVD, I'm not sure I really want to see the scene of Jack and Randall hugging (if it does indeed exist). I'm not as anti-Randall as I once was, I can accept him and Jack having something approaching a proper relationship, rather than just meaningless sex, but I'm not sure I want to actually see any evidence of it :-\\
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Maybe we should lighten up on Randall. he has not been the most popular person in the threads so far. I 'm gonna try though. What baffles me too is all this went on literally beneath the nose of Lureen and LaShawn. The ladies were both cluless. Wow, these guys are good. OK, I see what you mean after watching the scene again. Randall's words could have been initerpreted literally in case Jack was't gay .
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If Jack/Jake looked at me like that, I would be thinking "Yay, it's my lucky night!!"
On the other hand its a matter of context. Be a man watcher. Watch men who are seriously interested in eachother, even if it is not sexual. They all look at each other this way.
the reason most women would powder their nose (as in fixing their make-up/hair) when leaving a party would be to look attractive to go home and go to bed with her husband
Thanks for explaining that mistery!
On the subject of Randall, excited as I am at the thought of the deleted scenes on the new DVD, I'm not sure I really want to see the scene of Jack and Randall hugging (if it does indeed exist).
Who knows. The implication is they did a lot more that hugging.
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Who are these men men who like their women coming to bed lookin like a powdered donut? I'm with Jack on this one .For example Lureen could tone down the hair a little and the make up. It's called natrual looking and she should get to know it. Sorry Lureen lovers this is my opinion less is more.
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If there are additional scenes involving Randall I think I want to see them. Whether we like it or not, Randall factors into this story. We do know that he and Jack were involved. Regardless of what we see on the screen we know that Jack and Ennis had a love that wasn't destroyed by distance. The story would have needed to have a different ending to see if Randall actually stood a real chance with Jack.
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If there are additional scenes involving Randall I think I want to see them. Whether we like it or not, Randall factors into this story. We do know that he and Jack were involved. Regardless of what we see on the screen we know that Jack and Ennis had a love that wasn't destroyed by distance. The story would have needed to have a different ending to see if Randall actually stood a real chance with Jack.
Agreed Cowboy :f)
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Ennis was clearly the love of Jacks life.
However, he did have things with other men in the four years before he cotacted Ennis. ( "Jack who had been riding more than bulls" from the hotel scene in the story.) Possible takes on a Rodeo clown (?) Trips to Mexico too. Finally there was Randall with whom he was trying to set up a sweet life with, as Ennis would not even thought it was the 80's and he was long before divorced.
I understand both sides of it.
Jack died trying.
Saul
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Jack died trying.
Saul
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Frandall.jpg&hash=9acba49f9046024dd88e53abf81db6e39584b2fb)
If Jack/Jake looked at me like that, I would be thinking "Yay, it's my lucky night!!" ;D And it wasn't just the once, the looks were going back and forth between them, but that's all it was, just looks, so they weren't being too blatant, but just enough to make sure each of them knew what was on the other's mind ;) And the scene outside, Randall doesn't actually suggest anything other than just two buddies going fishing for the weekend (which is exactly what Jack and Ennis did, as far as anyone else is concerned), but they were both on the same wavelength enough to know what it really meant ;) I also think when Jack says about women powdering their nose to go home and go to bed could have been a hint that Randall picked up on, the reason most women would powder their nose (as in fixing their make-up/hair) when leaving a party would be to look attractive to go home and go to bed with her husband, the fact that Jack didn't realise, or care, that that was what Lureen was doing would have implied to Randall that Jack wasn't all that interested in Lureen sexually (especially when you add it to Lureen's comment about husbands not wanting to dance with their wives).
On the subject of Randall, excited as I am at the thought of the deleted scenes on the new DVD, I'm not sure I really want to see the scene of Jack and Randall hugging (if it does indeed exist). I'm not as anti-Randall as I once was, I can accept him and Jack having something approaching a proper relationship, rather than just meaningless sex, but I'm not sure I want to actually see any evidence of it :-\\
CrimsonSky, your comment about wives powdering their noses was very helpful! I like it. I had not though about it this way, but what you say makes a lot of sense to me. Is it strange that I had not looked at it this way?
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If Jack/Jake looked at me like that, I would be thinking "Yay, it's my lucky night!!"
On the other hand its a matter of context. Be a man watcher. Watch men who are seriously interested in eachother, even if it is not sexual. They all look at each other this way.
I can vouchsafe for this one!
the reason most women would powder their nose (as in fixing their make-up/hair) when leaving a party would be to look attractive to go home and go to bed with her husband
Thanks for explaining that mistery!
Indeed!
On the subject of Randall, excited as I am at the thought of the deleted scenes on the new DVD, I'm not sure I really want to see the scene of Jack and Randall hugging (if it does indeed exist).
Who knows. The implication is they did a lot more that hugging.
I agree. If we are to interpret Jack's mention of an affair with the ranch foreman's wife as an inverted reference to his affair with Randall, then it would imply that they had some experience with each other. Such a use of inversion is very Proustian...
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I reckon that Randall wasn't very interested in LaShawn (!) and she knew it. So the nose-powdering thing is done, as are many apparently illogical things women do, not for Randall's sake nor Jack's but to impress other women. Jane Austen noted that "woman is fine" for herself and other women, not to impress men, and she's right. Lureen and LaSahwn are in direct competition - look at the attempt to impress by sorority membership - and neither Randall nor Jack is interested or impressed - or indeed even looking.
( In any case men never notice things like clothes and hair and makeup but other women do!)
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Jack died trying.
Saul
:\'( :\'( :\'(
Oh greenfrog. Thats so sad.
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I reckon that Randall wasn't very interested in LaShawn (!) and she knew it.
LaShawn is one character I could cheerfully strangle. Such a chatterbox! (Brilliantly acted as are all parts without exception in BBM).
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Has anyone else noticed (and please excuse me if this has already been discussed---I'm new here :P) that when Jack asks LaShawn to dance, for a split-second Randall has a look on his face as if Jack had asked him to dance.
I'm not nuts, am I? ;D but every time I see that scene and that moment I think that's what's happening.
And, by the way, I really, really like Randall. I think he's a darling bear of a man and he seems really nice and kind for Jack. Not, and I repeat not, as any sort of substitute for Ennis! Just a really nice guy who, duh, of course, is attracted to Jack!
Shelley
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No your not nuts. Jack WAS looking dead into Randall's eyes when he asked LaShawn to dance. Some think he's a creepy bastard but I agree He's not so bad. He just tried to come between what I feel is the the perfect match. Any threat to that disturbs me.Ennis and Jack forever!
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I don't see Randall as someone who tried to come between Ennis and Jack. I would imagine Randall's relationship with Jack was similar to Ennis and Cassie. Neither Randall or Cassie knew of another significant person in Jack and Ennis's life. Cassie knew there was a wall that kept her from getting closer to Ennis. She just had no idea it was Jack. What we don't know is if Randall reached a point where he may have felt something or someone was keeping him from being closer to Jack. Despite the fact that Jack may have decided to move on with Randall, he was not the primary factor in Ennis and Jack's separation. The primary factor was a fear of their relationship imposed by the society under which their relationship began.
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I like Randall too. He is married a hunk with a nice beard. Just exactly the sort of man who has men on the side in my experience. He almost certainly knew nothing about Ennis. And between the lines he was prepared to leave his wife and go and build that log cabin an Jacks parents farm. He would have if Jack had not been killed. Ennis had had 20 years to do it.
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I like Randall. However, the love that Jack and Ennis shared might have always posed a threat to Randall had Jack lived and attempted to move on. I know it's just speculation at this point, but I can't ignore an important fact. By moving back to Lightening Flat, Jack would have been much closer to Ennis. Chances are Jack and Ennis would run into each other from time to time. I believe the temptation to dump Randall at the slightest invitation from Ennis would be very great. As much as I like Randall, I don't see where there could have been a solid future with Jack if Ennis was anywhere in the vicinity.
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No Shelley you're not nuts- I always thought he was looking at Randall when he asked LaShawn to dance.
I don't dislike Randall either. I want Jack and Ennis all the way but if Randall was able to provide some sort of stability or fill some void in Jack then I'm okay with that. I do agree that if Jack had moved back to LF or if Ennis had given some word that he was ready for that life with Jack then Randall would have been history. And CSC I like what you said about Randall not being a cause of their seperation.
CrimsonSky- I love that interpretation of the women powdering their noses. O0 I never thought of it that way.
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I like Randall. However, the love that Jack and Ennis shared might have always posed a threat to Randall had Jack lived and attempted to move on. I know it's just speculation at this point, but I can't ignore an important fact. By moving back to Lightening Flat, Jack would have been much closer to Ennis. Chances are Jack and Ennis would run into each other from time to time. I believe the temptation to dump Randall at the slightest invitation from Ennis would be very great. As much as I like Randall, I don't see where there could have been a solid future with Jack if Ennis was anywhere in the vicinity.
Great post Cowboy :c)
I think more than anything, we just want Jack and Ennis to be happy, whether that's with someone else or with each other.
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No your not nuts. Jack WAS looking dead into Randall's eyes when he asked LaShawn to dance. Some think he's a creepy bastard but I agree He's not so bad. He just tried to come between what I feel is the the perfect match. Any threat to that disturbs me.Ennis and Jack forever!
Jack's look was almost challenging, no? I don't know whether he meant this to seem like it was with Randall that he wanted to dance with, but the look seems to signify something. Was it, in fact, a challenge of some sort. I know that when one looks back at someone eyeing you, it is almost an affirmation of interest. Could this be the case here?
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I don't see Randall as someone who tried to come between Ennis and Jack. I would imagine Randall's relationship with Jack was similar to Ennis and Cassie. Neither Randall or Cassie knew of another significant person in Jack and Ennis's life. Cassie knew there was a wall that kept her from getting closer to Ennis. She just had no idea it was Jack. What we don't know is if Randall reached a point where he may have felt something or someone was keeping him from being closer to Jack. Despite the fact that Jack may have decided to move on with Randall, he was not the primary factor in Ennis and Jack's separation. The primary factor was a fear of their relationship imposed by the society under which their relationship began.
Yes, I do think Randall was not the cause of the separation. Did he even know about Ennis? I wonder...
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Great post Cowboy :c)
I think more than anything, we just want Jack and Ennis to be happy, whether that's with someone else or with each other.
greenfrog , yes I do feel for both the characters. How much we would have liked to see them finally happy -- but I had always hoped that they would inevitably find happiness only in each other.
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I think more than anything, we just want Jack and Ennis to be happy, whether that's with someone else or with each other.
The only way is to go with the love of your life - anything else is second or third best. So no, I want Ennis and Jack to be happy together. (And I'll keep watching the film until they are!)
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The only way is to go with the love of your life - anything else is second or third best. So no, I want Ennis and Jack to be happy together. (And I'll keep watching the film until they are!)
That's the reason I still watch Gone With the Wind....hope against hope they will be together. O0
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I think more than anything, we just want Jack and Ennis to be happy, whether that's with someone else or with each other.
The only way is to go with the love of your life - anything else is second or third best. So no, I want Ennis and Jack to be happy together. (And I'll keep watching the film until they are!)
Yes, of course I would rather them be happy with each other rather than with somebody else.
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I like Randall. However, the love that Jack and Ennis shared might have always posed a threat to Randall had Jack lived and attempted to move on. I know it's just speculation at this point, but I can't ignore an important fact. By moving back to Lightening Flat, Jack would have been much closer to Ennis. Chances are Jack and Ennis would run into each other from time to time. I believe the temptation to dump Randall at the slightest invitation from Ennis would be very great. As much as I like Randall, I don't see where there could have been a solid future with Jack if Ennis was anywhere in the vicinity.
City Slickin' Cowboy (I love your name and your picture, by the way! 8) for the very reasons you say here, my heart goes out to Randall. He seems like such a sensitive man and would certainly be rejected if Ennis were to come back into Jack's life.
I would love to know more about his and Jack's relationship. Purely for educational purposes, mind you. ::) I don't know why Randall has so caught my attention except that I really think he would care a great deal for Jack. And I love the way he looks---big guy with kind eyes.
Shelley
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I thonk I feel sorry for him being landed with LaShawn - but thenmaybe he married her for camouflage. I wonder what sort of a future lay ahead for him?
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I thonk I feel sorry for him being landed with LaShawn - but thenmaybe he married her for camouflage. I wonder what sort of a future lay ahead for him?
This is true. Randall deserves sympathy at least on this score. It is perhaps bad enough to drive any guy (gay or straight) insane.
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I did'nt mean to say that Randall purposely or knowingly tried to break Jack and Ennis up, literally as I don't even know if he knew about Ennis but he was in the right place at the right time when the "opportunity presented itself for an ongoing affair with Jack.Lookin at it from this context, the chance to be with Jack was there and Randall took it. Wether it contributed to causing a split between J&E is another story. Thanks for lettin me clarify.
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I thonk I feel sorry for him being landed with LaShawn - but thenmaybe he married her for camouflage.
If I was married to LaShawn I would wear camoflage and hide in the undergrowth. :8
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She'll come looking for you, screaming your name in that high pitched voice of hers until your can't stand it anymore then you'd have to pop up and she'd find you! ...Lively little gal. Ha ha. Poor Randall.
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...Lively little gal. Ha ha. Poor Randall.
LaShawn Even her name is awfull. Shawn on the otherhand is quite allright! (^)
It will be interesting to see if there is anything extra about Randall on the De-Lux version.
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I thonk I feel sorry for him being landed with LaShawn - but thenmaybe he married her for camouflage.
If I was married to LaShawn I would wear camoflage and hide in the undergrowth. :8
:8 :8 :8
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I would love to know more about his and Jack's relationship. Purely for educational purposes, mind you. ::) I don't know why Randall has so caught my attention except that I really think he would care a great deal for Jack. And I love the way he looks---big guy with kind eyes.
Shelley
It would have been interesting if the story could have touched on Randall and Jack a little more. It would have at least allowed us to better speculate if he could have stood a real chance with Jack in Wyoming. Btw...I practically drooled over Randall in the theater. :d)
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I would love to know more about his and Jack's relationship. Purely for educational purposes, mind you. ::) I don't know why Randall has so caught my attention except that I really think he would care a great deal for Jack. And I love the way he looks---big guy with kind eyes.
Shelley
It would have been interesting if the story could have touched on Randall and Jack a little more. It would have at least allowed us to better speculate if he could have stood a real chance with Jack in Wyoming. Btw...I practically drooled over Randall in the theater. :d)
I would like to have seen a little more of their relationship too.
And I can just picture you Cowboy, drooling over Randall in the theatre,
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Yes, it's hard to discuss his character when what we see of him is so bried and he has so little direct interaction with Jack. But at least he makes the running this time and isn;t in denial like Ennis.
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I wonder if Randall had more scenes -- other than the one shown in the movie and the cut scene showing him and Jack embracing. Perhaps his character loomed larger in some early stage of the filming -- as a sort of anti-Ennis. But this is all pure speculation. I share Saul's hope that more will be revealed in the deleted scenes of the January edition.
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share Saul's hope that more will be revealed in the deleted scenes of the January edition.
You know the two men at the gas station that are in the theatre trailer but not in the present film? They say that was part of a scene with Jack and Randall.
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Hmmm.... maybe those mechanics saw Jack & Randall together kissing, and that's what spurned the tireiron scene... :\'(
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Hmmm.... maybe those mechanics saw Jack & Randall together kissing, and that's what spurned the tireiron scene... :\'(
You might have something there DirtBiker. "This thing" might have got them anyway, or Jack at least who prefered action to safety.
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I didn't realize there was cut scene involving Randall and Jack. Something to look forward to in the new DVD.
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I didn't realize there was cut scene involving Randall and Jack. Something to look forward to in the new DVD.
Well have to see. They may just restore the cut scenes, or some of them, or give new material. Who knows?
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You know the two men at the gas station that are in the theatre trailer but not in the present film? They say that was part of a scene with Jack and Randall.
I really hope they include ALL deleted material, even if some may appear to be too disjointed from the rest...
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I curious to see any deleted scene with Randall. I don't think it will change how I see Ennis and Jack, but it may help me see a bigger picture of Jack's life in those later years.
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I curious to see any deleted scene with Randall. I don't think it will change how I see Ennis and Jack, but it may help me see a bigger picture of Jack's life in those later years.
It would also be interesting to see how Ang Lee and the script writers envisioned Randall at an earlier stage -- whether they envisioned him as a rival to Ennis. Perhaps Proulx may have objected... Still, it is interesting to see anything that casts light on the evolution of the film version.
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I would love to know more about his and Jack's relationship. Purely for educational purposes, mind you. ::) I don't know why Randall has so caught my attention except that I really think he would care a great deal for Jack. And I love the way he looks---big guy with kind eyes.
Shelley
It would have been interesting if the story could have touched on Randall and Jack a little more. It would have at least allowed us to better speculate if he could have stood a real chance with Jack in Wyoming. Btw...I practically drooled over Randall in the theater. :d)
Cute! I can totally see why you'd be attracted to Randall, CSC. And I would love to see more of him in the dvd. I still think Randall would be a good friend for Jack.
Shelley
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Randall seemed to be a big loveable teddy bear. I could easily ignore the fact that he wasn't very "mechanical" per LaShawn. I'm sure there were other things he was quite skilled in fixing.
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Randall seemed to be a big loveable teddy bear. I could easily ignore the fact that he wasn't very "mechanical" per LaShawn. I'm sure there were other things he was quite skilled in fixing.
Hey! Randall can fix Jack anytime! ;D ;D
Shelley
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As tpe mentioned earlier, it will be interesting to see what Ang Lee may have invisioned with regards to Randall. I'm already getting anxious waiting for the updated DVD package.
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As tpe mentioned earlier, it will be interesting to see what Ang Lee may have invisioned with regards to Randall. I'm already getting anxious waiting for the updated DVD package.
I am going to wait and see what the de-lux version has. Then I will get it when it is available in Europe rather than having it imported from a USA address.
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I am beginning to think that Randall could have been developed as a much more interesting figure -- too bad he is just too shadowy in the finished version. But he could have been developed as an interesting foil to Ennis. Randall also seems to be quite laconic, or is it the contrast with LaShawn that is making me say this? He is certainly much more forward than Ennis. And perhaps less conflicted... I wonder if that attracted Jack initially to him...
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Compared to LaShawn Randall was quite laid back in his demeanor. I imagine having lived in slightly more populated areas Randall had the opportunity to shed a few fears he may have harbored that dealt with approaching men romantically or just sexually. The fact that he wasn't small in stature may have eased some of his fears for his safety in a one on one situation. There was certainly potential to develop his character as a significant threat to Jack and Ennis's relationship.
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Good point, CSC. After all, Randall was a college graduate, and he must have moved in a slightly more privileged world than either Ennis or Jack. This could account to his greater self-assurance. Also, your mention of his size is also interesting. He was quite soft-spoken in the scenes, but I got the impression that he would be the dominant partner in the relationship.
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Good point, CSC. After all, Randall was a college graduate, and he must have moved in a slightly more privileged world than either Ennis or Jack. This could account to his greater self-assurance. Also, your mention of his size is also interesting. He was quite soft-spoken in the scenes, but I got the impression that he would be the dominant partner in the relationship.
No doubt! As far as I know, Randall didn't have any temper issues. For all we know Randall had the potential for being a good match for Jack. However, when there is a strong love bond to contend with, a person is blind to the fact that a good match for them may be waiting in the wings. Ennis and Jack had a powerful love, but we all know it wasn't a perfect love. We know enough about their personalities to assume there would be problems outside of what society would inflict.
I can envision Randall being a loving and safe match for Jack. However that might not be enough for Jack. After all he traveled thousands of miles for years just to spend a few days at a time with Ennis. Only a deep, powerful love would motivate someone to settle into that pattern.
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Good point, CSC. After all, Randall was a college graduate, and he must have moved in a slightly more privileged world than either Ennis or Jack. This could account to his greater self-assurance. Also, your mention of his size is also interesting. He was quite soft-spoken in the scenes, but I got the impression that he would be the dominant partner in the relationship.
Is Randall identified as a college graduate in the book?
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It's referenced in the movie by LaShawn: ... but then I met Randall at an Aggie game and he was an animal husbandry major....
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It would be intereting to know what Randall's reaction to Jack's dying was and how it affected him.Maybe we'll get more answers in this new DVD that's comimg out.
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It's referenced in the movie by LaShawn: ... but then I met Randall at an Aggie game and he was an animal husbandry major....
Kinky. Fancy being the husband of an animal while being in the army as a major. It must have been LeShawn that drove him to it! &**)
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Is "Aggie" Texas A and M? I'm sorry to be so uninformed.
Being a college graduate might make Randall a b iot of an outsider too, like Jack. I bet some of the older generation and the good old boys would have looked on degrees in stock management with grave suspicion. Not what they'd done, and so to be treated with some distrust.
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Aggie is a term used for students who attend A&M
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It would be intereting to know what Randall's reaction to Jack's dying was and how it affected him.Maybe we'll get more answers in this new DVD that's comimg out.
I would be interesting to know how it affected him.
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Good point, CSC. After all, Randall was a college graduate, and he must have moved in a slightly more privileged world than either Ennis or Jack. This could account to his greater self-assurance. Also, your mention of his size is also interesting. He was quite soft-spoken in the scenes, but I got the impression that he would be the dominant partner in the relationship.
No doubt! As far as I know, Randall didn't have any temper issues. For all we know Randall had the potential for being a good match for Jack. However, when there is a strong love bond to contend with, a person is blind to the fact that a good match for them may be waiting in the wings. Ennis and Jack had a powerful love, but we all know it wasn't a perfect love. We know enough about their personalities to assume there would be problems outside of what society would inflict.
I can envision Randall being a loving and safe match for Jack. However that might not be enough for Jack. After all he traveled thousands of miles for years just to spend a few days at a time with Ennis. Only a deep, powerful love would motivate someone to settle into that pattern.
I had convinced myself in the past that perhaps Jack would have sufficed for Randall, but Jack would only be at rest with Ennis.
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Suffice indeed. CSC is right too . Randall would have been what Jack needed but not what Jack wanted. He was IN love with Ennis. Randall could have been a great partner, better able to give Jack what he needed and in time Jack would have gotten used to having Randall there for him. He already had that somewhat with Lureen though . But it was something about Ennis that attracted Jack and kept him coming back to him. Jack woudl'nt have to "win Randall" he was already there. But Ennis was more of a challenge for Jack and I think Jack wanted the challenge because if he could get Ennis, the prize would be so much sweeter in the end. Jack would've become bored eventually and started regretting that he gave up on the one he truly loved. The comonality and the bond would'nt be there. The memory of Ennis still would'nt allow him to be with Randall in peace. He would always wonder or at least for a long time afterwards. That would'nt be fair to Randall either.There were only two ways for it to end 1. the way it did or, 2. Jack and Ennis getting together again and coming to some kind of understanding and a sweet life together. Ennis would have stepped up to the plate rather than let Randall have Jack IMO.
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I have to believe Ennis would have tried a life together with Jack. It was evident Ennis couldn't handle the thought of Jack having any sexual escapades with other men. I think the thought of Jack having an actual relationship with Randall might have been a huge eye opener for Ennis. Until Jack's father mentioned "this other fella" it probably never occured to Ennis that another man could possibly replace him in Jack's heart.
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Until Jack's father mentioned "this other fella" it probably never occured to Ennis that another man could possibly replace him in Jack's heart.
That's true CSC- I mean Ennis knew about Mexico etc but when Papa Twist mentioned someone else coming up to the ranch with Jack- that had to kill Ennis esp. considering their last meeting. Papa Twist says how Jack was going to bring Ennis there and then he mentions bringing another fella adding insult to injury. I think that makes Ennis finding the shirts even more powerful- not only did they represent that Jack loved and held him since Brokeback but the fact that they were still there despite Randall told Ennis that it was always him, no matter what. I also think that Ennis would have stepped up to the plate had he known that Jack was moving on.
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I have to believe Ennis would have tried a life together with Jack. It was evident Ennis couldn't handle the thought of Jack having any sexual escapades with other men. I think the thought of Jack having an actual relationship with Randall might have been a huge eye opener for Ennis. Until Jack's father mentioned "this other fella" it probably never occured to Ennis that another man could possibly replace him in Jack's heart.
Oh boy, here I go again :\'( :\'( :\'(
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This statement by Twist Sr. had to blow Ennis away. Now, not only does he have knowledege of "Mexico" , from Jack but now he has this "other fella "who appeared to be a much more serious presence in what was Jack's life. Jack's words at the last meeting must have really hit home after hearing this, devastating Ennis even more to know that Jack may have had future plans that did'nt include him. If Ennis could have met Randall , ^*) ( whew!) THAT would have been an interesting conversation!
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It's John Twist trying to destroy Ennis as he tried to destroy Jack - he's miserable himslef and wants everyone around him to be miserable too - would hate toleave Ennis with any illusions. Of course in the end he's wrong - Ennis is carrying the proof of that.
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Yes, thank goodness for the shirts. As the saying goes "there's no fool like an old fool". The old fool was indeed heartless and miserable I agree. Even in death Jack was able to comfort and reassure Ennis of his eternal love for him."Jack, I swear" indeed. Amazing!
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Yes, thank goodness for the shirts. As the saying goes "there's no fool like an old fool". The old fool was indeed heartless and miserable I agree. Even in death Jack was able to comfort and reassure Ennis of his eternal love for him."Jack, I swear" indeed. Amazing!
Are you trying to make me cry? :\'(
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%(fellow Brokie %), but Jack was such an #)...we'll cry together ok?
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I guess what it all comes down to is that we needed a longer story. Randall could have been a good match for Jack. Because of how the story ended we will never know. When you factor in how our boys felt for each other, it doesn't look as though Randall stood a real chance with Jack.
(Of course if I were in the story, I would have encouraged Randall to seek comfort in MY arms! ;) )
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And I'm sure that tall softspoken cowboy would have been much obliged no doubt my freind. :cr) to ya.
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Thank you :) He would be quite a catch. <^(
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City Slickin' Cowboy
Off topic I know - but it was great to see you in London on the web-cam. I went up to my room to get my cowboy hat as you had yours on, but you had just logged-off!
JFT
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When I watched BBM in London last Saturday, I could not help seeing Randall in a more sympathetic light. I must admit that I though of this very thread during those scenes with LaShawn and Randall. IT is amazing how the discussion here has enriched the expereince...
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I agree. During my first few viewings I wasn't very aware of Randall and Jack sizing each other up at the table. After all, we know who was doing ALL the talking. I think I was more distracted by LaShawn at first. After this thread began I started to pay more attention to the table scene.
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And I did nore carefully at Randall's face while they were waiting for their wives. It is a mask of beautiful self-control. Jack's face showed more perturbation. But Randall's was inscrutable. Even his voice did not betray anything. For so small a part, I think the acting was magnificent.
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I have to agree with your comments tpe. The acting was magnificent and VERY realistic.
When I watch this scene I'm thinking that Jack's silence was an indication that he knew EXACTLY what Randall meant by "do a little fishin', drink a little whiskey, ya know?" It reminded me of similar situations in my past.
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And the fact that this was the excuse he and Ennis had used - fishin' buddies. OK for two men to go off and fish and drink - very macho! Though Lureen wasn't impressed - she complained about Jack's going so far to fish and also said disapprovingly that he drank a lot. I wonder whether she's have though Randall preferable to Ennis on the grounds that he was more educated and more closely linked with managing - if there had to be someone male in Jack's life would Randall be more socially acceptable?
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We coud'nt help but see who was doing all the talking CSC ! ::) I, like you never really looked at what else was conspiring between Randall and Jack the first few times watching this scene . LaShawn was so distracting and had my full attention! to her acting credit I guess. There was contarst there with LaShawn's endless chatter and the quiet "eye dance" going on between these two. Randall and Jack were doing some serious eye-contact. When Jack asked LaShawn to dance they were "fixed" on each other. Randall just seemed like a nice guy in a bad marriage just like Jack. I woud have loved to hear some of their converstions,at their meetings but unfortunately that was not to be.
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I have to agree with your comments tpe. The acting was magnificent and VERY realistic.
When I watch this scene I'm thinking that Jack's silence was an indication that he knew EXACTLY what Randall meant by "do a little fishin', drink a little whiskey, ya know?" It reminded me of similar situations in my past.
Yes, Jack knew what Randal meant. Was he surprised, or was he expecting this all along? It is a perfect example of coded language, no?
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And the fact that this was the excuse he and Ennis had used - fishin' buddies. OK for two men to go off and fish and drink - very macho! Though Lureen wasn't impressed - she complained about Jack's going so far to fish and also said disapprovingly that he drank a lot. I wonder whether she's have though Randall preferable to Ennis on the grounds that he was more educated and more closely linked with managing - if there had to be someone male in Jack's life would Randall be more socially acceptable?
Yes, it m,ust hjave been perfect for Jack. Surely, Lureen would have found Randall more acceptable than Jack going all the way up to see Ennis. But I do wonder whether at this point Lureen and Jack had ceased to care what the other one was doing -- well, maybe NOT Jack, as he would still probably try to keep face for the sake of their son. Still, Randall was the easier choice...
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We coud'nt help but see who was doing all the talking CSC ! ::) I, like you never really looked at what else was conspiring between Randall and Jack the first few times watching this scene . LaShawn was so distracting and had my full attention! to her acting credit I guess. There was contarst there with LaShawn's endless chatter and the quiet "eye dance" going on between these two. Randall and Jack were doing some serious eye-contact. When Jack asked LaShawn to dance they were "fixed" on each other. Randall just seemed like a nice guy in a bad marriage just like Jack. I woud have loved to hear some of their converstions,at their meetings but unfortunately that was not to be.
I share the same sentiment. LaShawn was so distracting that is bordered on pure genius! It took multiple viewings for me to appreciate all the underlying things that were happening in those scenes.
When Jack was dancing with LaShawn, I was half-imagining that he was looking over her shoulder -- back to the table where Randalll was no boubt looking at him? I don't think Jack did this, but I always get the feeling when I see that scene in my last few viewings. Perhaps I should look at it more carefully agin to see why I get this feeling.
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I have to agree with your comments tpe. The acting was magnificent and VERY realistic.
When I watch this scene I'm thinking that Jack's silence was an indication that he knew EXACTLY what Randall meant by "do a little fishin', drink a little whiskey, ya know?" It reminded me of similar situations in my past.
Yes, Jack knew what Randal meant. Was he surprised, or was he expecting this all along? It is a perfect example of coded language, no?
Definitely. A lot of us have had similar situations. I was so interesting to see this on screen in such a realistic depiction.
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I guess it could be called caution in a way. Just sticking a toe into the water? In case Randall had read Jack's intentions wrong then there's an out. With Jack and Ennis ,Jack did not give Ennis an "out"....( Ennis did'nt want one anyway ) once he made up his mind . Unlike Randall there was no verbal coded messages unless it's silence. , but Randall became a serious threat to Ennis. More serious than he realized until Twist Sr. alluded to Randall "the ranch neighbor" and Ennis simply put 2and 2 together. The term"the ranch neighbor" stood out for him because of he and Jack's recent converation about the ranch neighbor's wfe.
You speak fondly of your personal experience with Your "Randall" CSC, but that's the thing about this movie, it shows how it can really happen. :c)
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Randall had his gaydar on and picked up on Jack's despair, not to mention those limpid pools of blue he kept gazing into which could weaken anyone on down. Jack was too crazy in love with Ennis to actually break it off. To quote part of Cher's line from the movie Moonstruck Jack"loved him awful". Randall found a tall and hansome drink of water to quench passions thirst with.
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I suppose your right.
I don't think there is really a wrong here. Sure, Jack was more sex-driven. But we can all relate to that. We feel the same pain and the need for release.
Thanks aintfoolin for bringing this up.
I only just found this thread and have been reading it avidly! Thanks for all the interesting posts, folks....
There are several ´posts throughout the thread dealing with Jack's "being a slut" or "highly sexed". I must say I am a bit astonished by these comments. Why should we think that somebody is "abnormal" (i.e. "a slut") because he wants sex, love, tenderness? Because he gets them from more than one person? For the first time in my life, I am in a monogamous relationship and it feels good, though it scares me sometimes, I'm not used to monogamy - but I would never dare qualify somebody as a slut for wanting what Jack wanted and needed (and what I used to get from more than one person at a time). I think he wanted sex AND love. He needed it, he needed to live with somebody, not just "a couple of high altitude fucks", as he says himself.
Love is mostly not that simple: There is not only one person, for ever, and nothing else. And there are many different kinds of love. Why shouldn't he have loved Randall? Why should we begrudge him any kind of love that he could get? There wasn't too much of it in his life, definitely.
What do you think, where does the wish come from to have Jack love and be loved only by Ennis? Is it a kind of immaturity, wanting to believe in the simple, fairytale version of life? I think Ang Lee was very much aware of the complexities of real life and he wanted to integrate that into the movie. In my opinion, he got it right! Jack never stopped loving Ennis, but he decided he needed something else. To me that is a sign of his growing maturity, but also of his desperation. My heart aches, when I think of him...
monicita
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As I stated in another thread , There is no blame to be placed on Jack or Ennis in this story. Jack was human and reacted in a human way. He was IN love with Ennis which brings with it something a little deeper than just sex. Anybody can love anybody or anything, but to be IN love is something different to me. When your in love IMO you dont;t want your mate with anyone else OR see yourself with anyone else either , no matter who came along. I feel Jack was in a battle, tempted by another man while going through difficult and trying times with Ennis. If he was'nt in love Randall's tempting offer would'nt bother him as much as it did. Randall could have offered Jack anything he wanted. Tall, Handsome,educated, with a personable charm, he would have been easy to love BUT he was'nt who Jack wanted to biuld a life with. He was IN love with Ennis Del Mar , did'nt need anyone else if he had gotten Ennis to commit fully . and he was'nt looking for anyone else seriously either. He'd already found his soulmate. Ennis is the one who had Jack's heart, he is the one who Jack really wanted to have that sweet life with and no one else . Yep , a man with Jack's looks probably would not have problems finding sex. I see no evidence of Randall leaving his marriage at the time so I assumed "do a little fishin" meant sex.( and sex is good) but Jack had experienced something a little deeper and that's a deep life changing love. Randall ,as nice as he was along with Lureen were substitutes for what Jack really craved. I just wished he had SOMEONE he could trust and confide in. Some one would'nt judge them. As always MHO.
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I only just found this thread and have been reading it avidly! Thanks for all the interesting posts, folks....
There are several ´posts throughout the thread dealing with Jack's "being a slut" or "highly sexed". I must say I am a bit astonished by these comments. Why should we think that somebody is "abnormal" (i.e. "a slut") because he wants sex, love, tenderness? Because he gets them from more than one person? For the first time in my life, I am in a monogamous relationship and it feels good, though it scares me sometimes, I'm not used to monogamy - but I would never dare qualify somebody as a slut for wanting what Jack wanted and needed (and what I used to get from more than one person at a time). I think he wanted sex AND love. He needed it, he needed to live with somebody, not just "a couple of high altitude f***s", as he says himself.
Love is mostly not that simple: There is not only one person, for ever, and nothing else. And there are many different kinds of love. Why shouldn't he have loved Randall? Why should we begrudge him any kind of love that he could get? There wasn't too much of it in his life, definitely.
What do you think, where does the wish come from to have Jack love and be loved only by Ennis? Is it a kind of immaturity, wanting to believe in the simple, fairytale version of life? I think Ang Lee was very much aware of the complexities of real life and he wanted to integrate that into the movie. In my opinion, he got it right! Jack never stopped loving Ennis, but he decided he needed something else. To me that is a sign of his growing maturity, but also of his desperation. My heart aches, when I think of him...
monicita
What you say is indeed true. Do any of us ever forget our former lovers? I also suspect that deep down, there is a part of us that continues to love them. I know I do, no matter how bitter the parting.
I believe that it is part of human nature to have multiple loves -- sometimes, it is just a matter of which one is deeper, or which one is the strongest. But this fact does not negate the ability to love others in a unique and special way.
Although Jack loved Ennis body and soul, I must concede the personal belief that he had probably grown to love Randall for what he was. True, he was not Ennis, but the Heart in search of love abhors a vacuum. Jack was vulnerable. He needed to live a life of love, without the constraints that he had struggled over for nearly 20 years. And I think this is why Jack appreciated Randall. He was probably willing to give Jack's dream a try. For just this, Randall deserves our sympathy.
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As I stated in another thread , There is no blame to be placed on Jack or Ennis in this story. Jack was human and reacted in a human way. He was IN love with Ennis which brings with it something a little deeper than just sex. Anybody can love anybody or anything, but to be IN love is something different to me. When your in love IMO you dont;t want your mate with anyone else OR see yourself with anyone else either , no matter who came along. I feel Jack was in a battle, tempted by another man while going through difficult and trying times with Ennis. If he was'nt in love Randall's tempting offer would'nt bother him as much as it did. Randall could have offered Jack anything he wanted. Tall, Handsome,educated, with a personable charm, he would have been easy to love BUT he was'nt who Jack wanted to biuld a life with. He was IN love with Ennis Del Mar , did'nt need anyone else if he had gotten Ennis to commit fully . and he was'nt looking for anyone else seriously either. He'd already found his soulmate. Ennis is the one who had Jack's heart, he is the one who Jack really wanted to have that sweet life with and no one else . Yep , a man with Jack's looks probably would not have problems finding sex. I see no evidence of Randall leaving his marriage at the time so I assumed "do a little fishin" meant sex.( and sex is good) but Jack had experienced something a little deeper and that's a deep life changing love. Randall ,as nice as he was along with Lureen were substitutes for what Jack really craved. I just wished he had SOMEONE he could trust and confide in. Some one would'nt judge them. As always MHO.
Wonderfully said, aintfoolin.
Sometimes, I think it sad that is real life, many people accept second best, and frequently for very valid, understandable reasons. I sometimes console myself with the thought that sometimes, second best flowers into something much greater.
I sometimes wonder whether this was Jack's hope. In life, I sense that sometimes, our greatest love is the greatest impossibility -- and the greatest love can be the source of the greatest pain. The greatest love is frequently never meant to be.
This is what they mean by star-crossed, I guess. People live it ever day. They suffer for it even as we speak.
Life and love sometimes separate -- this is I think what a lot of people mean when they say that life moves on. For Jack and Ennis, perhaps it was an impossibility while both of them lived. It is ironic that it was Jack's death that finally breached Ennis's Heart. Sometimes, a love has to die in order for it to live forever.
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Although Jack loved Ennis body and soul, I must concede the personal belief that he had probably grown to love Randall for what he was. True, he was not Ennis, but the Heart in search of love abhors a vacuum. Jack was vulnerable. He needed to live a life of love, without the constraints that he had struggled over for nearly 20 years. And I think this is why Jack appreciated Randall. He was probably willing to give Jack's dream a try. For just this, Randall deserves our sympathy.
He certainly has mine. Randall is quite a catch in anyone's eyes. He was just up against something that was probably bigger than he was.
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Newbie here - just saw BBM one week ago -it has such a powerful grip on me. Just mirroring other sentiments on the Jack & Randall relationship - I think Jack settled although Ennis was certainly his first choice and true love.
This brings up a question though - please forgive me if already discussed elsewhere - what made Randall so comfortable in his proposition to Jack the night both couples met up at the dance? In some way did Jack's reputation precede him? Seems very risky to me on Randall's part. Just wondering what you all think of this. IMO in that scene, Jack seems perhaps a bit offended in those initial seconds after being asked by Randall to "go fishing" at the cabin.
Also, did Jack's 'settling' contribute to his ultimate demise? (for those who believe he was murdered) i.e. perhaps not as discrete with Randall; getting drunk (Lureen's comment: "he drank a lot"); somehow, a slow self-death?
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I thought it came rather out of the blue and was a risky thing for randall to do if he had no previous inkling of Jack's secret, which made me think that there m,ay have been godssip about Jack before this. I thought the whole thing was becoming harder for jack to handle and in the end he didn;t care if he gave it all away or not, specially after that last scene with Ennis. I don;t think he's have killed himslef but one do thongs one knew might bring about one's death and not care.
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Forgot to say welcome to the forum. How lovely to have seen the movie for the first time only a week ago and nice that you were moved as so many of us have been.
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Thank you so much - I've been trying to catch up as fast as possible to the discussions. I was reading and posting over on BetterMost but the forum has been down..then I happened to read about this forum. I'm incredibly intrigued by the story and it's powerful effect. I realize some questions have already been discussed so please bear with me as I learn.
Forgot to say welcome to the forum. How lovely to have seen the movie for the first time only a week ago and nice that you were moved as so many of us have been.
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My thoughts are in alignment with yours - possibly some pre-knowledge (or rumor) on Randall's part in taking the liberty to be so bold with Jack; and yes, a sort of self-sabotage on Jack's part, whether conscious or unconscious.
I thought it came rather out of the blue and was a risky thing for randall to do if he had no previous inkling of Jack's secret, which made me think that there m,ay have been godssip about Jack before this. I thought the whole thing was becoming harder for jack to handle and in the end he didn;t care if he gave it all away or not, specially after that last scene with Ennis. I don;t think he's have killed himslef but one do thongs one knew might bring about one's death and not care.
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My thoughts are in alignment with yours - possibly some pre-knowledge (or rumor) on Randall's part in taking the liberty to be so bold with Jack; and yes, a sort of self-sabotage on Jack's part, whether conscious or unconscious.
From watching the movie I got the impression Jack and Lureen picked up Randall and LaShawn because they were having vehicle trouble. I saw nothing to indicate Randall had any prior knowledge of Jack. I'm left to believe this was a case of Randall and Jack's "Gaydar" being accurate. Having met my own BBM person on a ship full of "supposedly heterosexual" men, I can see how Randall and Jack just happen to zero in on each other.
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You're right - what an excellent detail that I overlooked - and which gives more credibility to the "gaydar" theory. I still think it was risky and bold for Randall to 'test the waters' with Jack, who in the proposition scene looked like he wanted to be a million miles from there.
From watching the movie I got the impression Jack and Lureen picked up Randall and LaShawn because they were having vehicle trouble. I saw nothing to indicate Randall had any prior knowledge of Jack. I'm left to believe this was a case of Randall and Jack's "Gaydar" being accurate. Having met my own BBM person on a ship full of "supposedly heterosexual" men, I can see how Randall and Jack just happen to zero in on each other.
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You're right - what an excellent detail that I overlooked - and which gives more credibility to the "gaydar" theory. I still think it was risky and bold for Randall to 'test the waters' with Jack, who in the proposition scene looked like he wanted to be a million miles from there.
You're right...it was risky. Back then most "safe" places for one male to proposition another were either bars or bath houses. There must have been something about Jack that gave Randall the green light. Sometimes it's nothing more than eye contact. Jack certainly looked to be miles away. My guess is that his mind was with Ennis.
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True, I did not see any sign that Jack did'nt keep his secrets well. If there was gossip, seems to me Lureen, being in the social status that she was would have heard about it and Oh boy... No, %( I think Jack's secret was well kept in Texas during this time Ennis, living in Wy. helped to keep it that way. I beleive it was the eye contact between these two that led to them connecting in an affair. Jack could speak volumes with his eyes alone and anyone could see that Jack and Lureen's marriage was strained. To me this is another scene that left me filling in the blanks. Obviously Lureen and LaShawn are in the ladies room powdwering their noses but who suggested they go and wait outside and have a smoke.? seems to me this person could be seen as the agressor. Sensing a few moments alone, I suspect it was Randall since he made the first "move". I loved he question Jack proposed to Randall about women powdering their noses before going to bed and Randall's "dont't know" reply. :) It's apparent that Jack preferred" shy type" secretive men. Randall had alot of Ennis's qualities IMO. No doubt a convenient personality trait. It's amazing that we see 3 MARRIED men who preferred men and "fishing" over their wives. ;) :c) :f)
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Aintfoolin, I wouldn't say Randall's proposition outside on the bench was the first move. In my eyes, the first move comes from Jack, when he asks LaShawn to dance, looking at Randall all the while. I always felt that this was an incredibly clear signal, even a dangerous one. Especially as he goes on looking at Randall (I think I would faint if he looked at me like that) and asks: "You don't mind, do you". If that isn't a complete come on, I don't know what would be. Randall would have had to be made of stone or 150% hetero not to have realised that Jack was interested. Or am I the only one to feel that both Jacks look and his words are double entendres?
monicita
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Newbie here - just saw BBM one week ago -it has such a powerful grip on me. Just mirroring other sentiments on the Jack & Randall relationship - I think Jack settled although Ennis was certainly his first choice and true love.
This brings up a question though - please forgive me if already discussed elsewhere - what made Randall so comfortable in his proposition to Jack the night both couples met up at the dance? In some way did Jack's reputation precede him? Seems very risky to me on Randall's part. Just wondering what you all think of this. IMO in that scene, Jack seems perhaps a bit offended in those initial seconds after being asked by Randall to "go fishing" at the cabin.
Also, did Jack's 'settling' contribute to his ultimate demise? (for those who believe he was murdered) i.e. perhaps not as discrete with Randall; getting drunk (Lureen's comment: "he drank a lot"); somehow, a slow self-death?
Welcome, Gabester2006.
I do think Randall's proposition was vague enough that it could be construed as devoid of any double meaning if necessary. In the past, this was a skill that every gay person had to master, if he wanted to make connections in places where such behavior could have been regarded as criminal. So I don't think Randall knew about Jack before this -- I guess both of them sensed each other, in amanner that people sometimes refer to as gaydar.
And I do think that Jack became less careful. Perhpas 20 years of hiding and delay pushed him to the brink. I do think that this contributed to his demise.
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Aintfoolin, I wouldn't say Randall's proposition outside on the bench was the first move. In my eyes, the first move comes from Jack, when he asks LaShawn to dance, looking at Randall all the while. I always felt that this was an incredibly clear signal, even a dangerous one. Especially as he goes on looking at Randall (I think I would faint if he looked at me like that) and asks: "You don't mind, do you". If that isn't a complete come on, I don't know what would be. Randall would have had to be made of stone or 150% hetero not to have realised that Jack was interested. Or am I the only one to feel that both Jacks look and his words are double entendres?
monicita
It is interesting to think about who made the first signs. It would seem that at the table, Randall was looking at Jack with such intense interest (that smile!) that it would have been difficult for Jack not to have noticed. Nonetheless, I agree that the invitation to a dance and the subsequent glances would seem to represent a more active signal coming from Jack...
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Wow, I never thought of it that way Moni, Maybe THIS was Jack's coded message to Randal? But then why did Jack look like that when Randall took he bait?.....Ennis?
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Wow, I never thought of it that way Moni, Maybe THIS was Jack's coded message to Randal? But then why did Jack look like that when Randall took he bait?.....Ennis?
Ennis!
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I knew it!
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Definitely, he was thinking of Ennis. One of Jake's finest acting moments, IMHO.
monicita
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I never thought of it that way Monicita (Jack making the first move) O0
Now as for Jack's look when they are outside on the bench- For a long time I thought Jack was thinking about Ennis with the mention of fishing etc, either missing him or maybe even guilt but the more I saw it (and I posted something like this many months ago) the more I think it wasn't Ennis he was thinking about- well not specifically- I've started to see it as shock or maybe surprise- "heres a guy who is actually approaching ME; I dont have to go looking for it, hes making himself available to me. I think that was empowering to Jack and I think that was important to him to feel that he was worth it considering that his father and LD treat him like crap on the bottom of their shoe and Ennis is always refusing that sweet life.
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Interesting angle LJN. It never occurred to me that Jack may have been a little surprised by Randall's proposition. I assumed Jack had done this subtle dance before. However it is reasonable to conclude that Randlall may have been the first guy to proposition him outside of the usual settings of back then.
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I guess I'm just assuming that the other men were not local ( I don't know if I'm explaining that right-lol) and they had just met and here's Randall asking him to go away for a weekend not just a one night stand type of deal- it was to spend some time together.
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I guess that would have caught him by surprise.
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Definitely, he was thinking of Ennis. One of Jake's finest acting moments, IMHO.
monicita
Agreed. I doubt that Ennis was ever far from his mind.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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Interesting angle LJN. It never occurred to me that Jack may have been a little surprised by Randall's proposition. I assumed Jack had done this subtle dance before. However it is reasonable to conclude that Randlall may have been the first guy to proposition him outside of the usual settings of back then.
I had thought that Jack was used to being the one making the first move. And I suspected that Randall caught him off guard. And yes, the look and silence after hearing out Randall is wonderfully done. I am sure he was thinking of Ennis. And lead us not into temptation...
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Newbie here - just saw BBM one week ago -it has such a powerful grip on me. Just mirroring other sentiments on the Jack & Randall relationship - I think Jack settled although Ennis was certainly his first choice and true love.
This brings up a question though - please forgive me if already discussed elsewhere - what made Randall so comfortable in his proposition to Jack the night both couples met up at the dance? In some way did Jack's reputation precede him? Seems very risky to me on Randall's part. Just wondering what you all think of this. IMO in that scene, Jack seems perhaps a bit offended in those initial seconds after being asked by Randall to "go fishing" at the cabin.
Also, did Jack's 'settling' contribute to his ultimate demise? (for those who believe he was murdered) i.e. perhaps not as discrete with Randall; getting drunk (Lureen's comment: "he drank a lot"); somehow, a slow self-death?
What you witnessed was the fine nuances of gaydar at work. Randall carefully observed Jack's mannerisms and realized he was with a kindred spirit. As far as Jack being offended, I don't think so, more like being surprised it was picked up on so easily. Randall made his subtle move on Jack after seeing him strut his stuff on the dance floor with La Shawn. How Jack could withstand the never ending gab she let flow I'll never know. Yes drinking was a slow death for him, and settling did ultimately cause his demise in Childress.
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We saw Jack make the first move a couple times , with the rodeo clown and with Ennis. I agree he was caught off guard by Randall's "suggestion". Even though he made it clear at the table that he was interested,, I don't think he anticipated Randall' reaction.
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Yes. Perhaps Jack thought Randall would be another Ennis, in the sense of not being up-front with his desires.
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Yes. Perhaps Jack thought Randall would be another Ennis, in the sense of not being up-front with his desires.
This may well have been the case. Randall surprised him with his subtle forwardness. Jack was being placed in the position of being the object of possible affection in a public place, nothing he ever would experience with Ennis.
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This may well have been the case. Randall surprised him with his subtle forwardness. Jack was being placed in the position of being the object of possible affection in a public place, nothing he ever would experience with Ennis.
I agree. This is precisely the way I feel.
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If you've spent years pursuing someone with little response, it might be rather pleasant to have someone evidently keen enough to pursue you.
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If you've spent years pursuing someone with little response, it might be rather pleasant to have someone evidently keen enough to pursue you.
This is human nature. We certainly can't fault Jack.
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Yep, Jack probably felt flatterd that he was the object of Randall's pursuit. For once he did not have to face rejection. Randall wanted him.
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Yep, Jack probably felt flatterd that he was the object of Randall's pursuit. For once he did not have to face rejection. Randall wanted him.
He got rejected several times by Ennis for wanting to be open with his desire. And was stung pretty hard by the Rodeo Clown in the saloon. Even after all these years for working for any attention he got, this was a pleasant and unexpected surprise for him. Someone wanted him possibly for the first time with no strings attached and no effort on his part other than to take him up on the offer.
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I can imagine how Jack must have felt. Randall is quite a catch. It had to be a little strange for Jack to be the one who was being pursued.
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That quote " Oh what a tangled web we weave" comes to mind . Jack, caught between these two handsosome cowboys Randall and Ennis.I'd have gladly taken one off his hands!! ;D ;) &*& Did I say that?Jeeeeeeez.Jack Twist, %)
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Many times, we are the spider to our fly.
It is when Jack begins to doubt that he opens the door to other possibilities. To doubt is to be human.
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They both had another big problem to worry about: LaShawn's big mouth! Who needs CNN with her telling tales about Randall and Jack if she'd gotten the slightest wind of this? How would Jack leave Ennis for Randall. I can't see this having a chance. Jack kept his secret affairs well hidden in Texas, but this could not have gone farther than it did. Can't imagine him living in LF with him, John Sr. and phone calls from LaShawn to Twist Sr.( you know she'd be more brazen in her disapproval than Alma was) or would at least fight alot harder for her man in my opinion. Would make very interesting conversation. but well.....no. Ennis was Jack's best and ONLY bet.
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I guess I hadn't given it much thought. True enough...LaShawn could have made Randall's life a living hell if he had left her for Jack. Considering CNN was in its infancy back then, she could have broadcast this fact about him over a wider listening area.
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Yes, but would she or LaShawn have wanted it known that their respective husbands had moved in together? Depends whether you think wounded pride would make them keep quiet or a desire for vengeance would make them loquacious. Knowing Lureen, her major concern might well be the business and how losing Jack would impact on that - he was supposedly their only tractor salesman.
I guess Randall's employer wouldn't be keen to keep him on anyway, so Lightning Flat or a totally different area would be their choices, given that John Twist is hardky likely to tolerate the two of them living on his land once the nature of the relationship becomes clear.
And I don't see Randall, with his degree, settling on some little farm like the Twists'.
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I suspect that Lureen knew Jack was cheating with SOMEBODY, judging from the way Jack described the marriage toward the end, and his repeated trips to Wy. but wether she knew it was with men???, + she could have been self-sufficent if she had to be, I'm not sure, But LaShawn did'nt appear to me to be as discreetly "polished" if I may say as Lureen. I don't see her being "quiet" about this. Her brazen manner would factor into this. Sure, she'd be shocked and hurt, but I've known a few LaShawns in my lifetime. That southern pride? Would'nt take it lying down. %(She'd eventually turn vindictive at being spurned this way. She could always move away from the gossip, but not before she extracted her revenge on Randall...and Jack . She'd give new meaning to "a woman scorned". They both seemed like "daddy's girls" to me ( we know Lureen was for sure), and Jack and Randall were playing with fire. my2 cents
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I can imagine LaShawn having an effective line in invective - not so sure about Lureen. going on the little smirk in the Thanksgiving scene, she can keep her feelings to herself when she wants to. and Lureen had been married for some time, had the business and a position in Childress - she could have done without Jack.
LaSahawn, on the other hand, was an ex-shop-assistant - Randall must have been a catch for her - don't think she'd be happy to let him go without a fight, whether to a man or another woman, because she had nothing to fall back on without him.
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I guess I hadn't given it much thought. True enough...LaShawn could have made Randall's life a living hell if he had left her for Jack. Considering CNN was in its infancy back then, she could have broadcast this fact about him over a wider listening area.
He wouldn't have lived long after the broadcast considering the town was basicaly made up of rednecked, whitesocked, Pabst Blue Ribbon drinkers.
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My guess is that LaShawn would have made Randall appear as the number one town enemy. I think her embarassment would have taken a back seat to vengence.
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I guess I hadn't given it much thought. True enough...LaShawn could have made Randall's life a living hell if he had left her for Jack. Considering CNN was in its infancy back then, she could have broadcast this fact about him over a wider listening area.
I have a feeling though that LaShawn was a person whose interest could be easily diverted to something else and would tend to forget much sooner. Why do I say this? People who chatter too much never listen, and we know that people who don't listen never retain that much inside.
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And I don't see Randall, with his degree, settling on some little farm like the Twists'.
Interesting point.
Randall had certainly a much more "elevated" and educated background than Jack. But I wonder whether this is a case of opposites strongly attracting each other.
It is hard to imagine Randall settling in LF, but perhaps he would have been the right person to whip the ranch back into shape. If he agreed to the plan, it is evidence of a great affection for Jack, no?
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If you look at him, he doesn't appear like some dirt poor farm worker - to get the Twist ranch into any sort of shape you'd need money too - it looks run-down and neglected. He looks to me like the new generation of managerial types who know all the theory but don't want to get their hands dirty. (Are my prejudices showing?)
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I suspect that Lureen knew Jack was cheating with SOMEBODY, judging from the way Jack described the marriage toward the end, and his repeated trips to Wy. but wether she knew it was with men???, + she could have been self-sufficent if she had to be, I'm not sure, But LaShawn did'nt appear to me to be as discreetly "polished" if I may say as Lureen. I don't see her being "quiet" about this. Her brazen manner would factor into this. Sure, she'd be shocked and hurt, but I've known a few LaShawns in my lifetime. That southern pride? Would'nt take it lying down. %(She'd eventually turn vindictive at being spurned this way. She could always move away from the gossip, but not before she extracted her revenge on Randall...and Jack . She'd give new meaning to "a woman scorned". They both seemed like "daddy's girls" to me ( we know Lureen was for sure), and Jack and Randall were playing with fire. my2 cents
If we are to consider the possibility that Lureen had Jack killed, then certainly she must have been aware of something in the end. Not so sure if she was aware that it was with Randall -- perhaps she thought it to be LaShawn. But I suspect that she probably knew about Randall.
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My guess is that LaShawn would have made Randall appear as the number one town enemy. I think her embarassment would have taken a back seat to vengence.
I largely agree. I suspect that the case would be different with Lureen as far as vindictiveness is concerned.
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If you look at him, he doesn't appear like some dirt poor farm worker - to get the Twist ranch into any sort of shape you'd need money too - it looks run-down and neglected. He looks to me like the new generation of managerial types who know all the theory but don't want to get their hands dirty. (Are my prejudices showing?)
Well, perhaps he and Jack would be well-matched, then. After all, times were certainly changing, and perhaps they needed someone like randall to help make the transition.
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I largely agree. I suspect that the case would be different with Lureen as far as vindictiveness is concerned.
You're probably correct. Lureen's personality and family influences lead me to believe she would have stuck it to Jack without any grand announcements. I think she would have tried to maintain her appearance with regards to her circle of associates and friends.
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I have a feeling though that LaShawn was a person whose interest could be easily diverted to something else and would tend to forget much sooner. Why do I say this? People who chatter too much never listen, and we know that people who don't listen never retain that much inside.
Good point- I don't think anyone could get a word in edgewise to tell her they suspected Jack and Randall.
You're probably correct. Lureen's personality and family influences lead me to believe she would have stuck it to Jack without any grand announcements. I think she would have tried to maintain her appearance with regards to her circle of associates and friends.
Another good point- I think Lureen was more concerned about appearances and therefore wouldn't have wanted for word to get out- at the very least it wouldn't come from her. I don;t think she had him killed but I do believe she knows the true nature of his death- that little story she told Ennis was too rehearsed plus the "He was only 39 yrs old" was part of her speech. We don't know what became of Randall or what even prompted Jack's attack- for all we know Randall is dead too. :-\\
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for all we know Randall is dead too. :-\\
That's an awful thaught!
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I will try not to think of that possibility.
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You're probably correct. Lureen's personality and family influences lead me to believe she would have stuck it to Jack without any grand announcements. I think she would have tried to maintain her appearance with regards to her circle of associates and friends.
With Lureen, I do think it was mostly about appearances, no? Being in the right sorority, having the right clothes, jewelry, handsome husband, etc.
I think with Randall, it was entirely the opposite. What was outside was mere pretense. He was quiet outside, but I suspect that like Jack, he too had an active double life.
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Good point- I don't think anyone could get a word in edgewise to tell her they suspected Jack and Randall.
I had wondered if she ever suspected Randall. I doubt it, personally.
Another good point- I think Lureen was more concerned about appearances and therefore wouldn't have wanted for word to get out- at the very least it wouldn't come from her. I don;t think she had him killed but I do believe she knows the true nature of his death- that little story she told Ennis was too rehear**d plus the "He was only 39 yrs old" was part of her speech. We don't know what became of Randall or what even prompted Jack's attack- for all we know Randall is dead too. :-\\
Thanks LJN. I do think there is much more to Randall and Lureen than meets the eye...
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They strike me as two people who are using each other - LaShawn has to be camouflage for Randall - no-one in his right mind would voluntarily marry her unless he had some ulterior motive. and sh's using him - he's got her out of working in shops, and into a higher level of society, even if it's in a backwater like Childress.
I can just imagine LaShawn tring to push Randall t get on and out so that she could be part of eg Dallas society and go shopping in Neiman Marcus instead of working there. I don't think Randall was going to get much peace with her. No wonder Jack looked so attractive, regardless of whether he was male or female.
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Yes, LaShawn is quite an interesting figure when paired with Randall. Were there hidden motives for Randall to marry LaShawn? Perhaps she was pretty enough, and her talking too much would certainly mean that she would be too busy to notice what was going on around her.
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No wonder Jack looked so attractive, regardless of whether he was male or female.
Please - Jack should stay just as he is! lets leave the blond wigs and smudgy nail varnish to the natural born ladies!
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My guess is that LaShawn would have made Randall appear as the number one town enemy. I think her embarassment would have taken a back seat to vengence.
yes that's one good point.
for all we know Randall is dead too. :-\\
oh , I had not thought about that!!
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Well, in my first time seeing the film, I haven't had any notice in Randoll (so I'm now not sure I type his name correctly). I allways think Jack's only love is Ennis and Randoll is someone to fulfill the gap between Jack and Ennis. In my opinion, he is nothing, maybe he is anotherone who likes Alma or Lureen ( u know what I mean)... So why must we talk about him? Jack always loves Ennis, I'm sure, Randoll is nothing, nothing, nothing....
I hate him, maybe he's the reason for Jack's death, if Jack didn't die, who knows what would be? Ennis may change his mind and they can have a sweet life together
Sorry for my bad English, hope yll can understand what I want to say :(
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So why must we talk about him?
Jack always loves Ennis, I'm sure, Randoll is nothing, nothing, nothing....
"Must" implies that we have too. No one is forcing us to discuss this! Randall is something in that he features in the story. Its better to focus on your love for Ennis and Jack rather than to hate Randall.
I hate him, maybe he's the reason for Jack's death, if Jack didn't die, who knows what would be? Ennis may change his mind and they can have a sweet life together
There is no evidence to support this at all. Anyone could have been behind the murder of Jack and this may or may not have been connected with Randall. If Jack went with male protitutes in Mexico that heaven knows what indiscressions he got up to nearer to home. The story makes it clear that Jack was having sex with men before he ever met Ennis.
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Well, in my first time seeing the film, I haven't had any notice in Randoll (so I'm now not sure I type his name correctly). I allways think Jack's only love is Ennis and Randoll is someone to fulfill the gap between Jack and Ennis. In my opinion, he is nothing, maybe he is anotherone who likes Alma or Lureen ( u know what I mean)... So why must we talk about him? Jack always loves Ennis, I'm sure, Randoll is nothing, nothing, nothing....
I hate him, maybe he's the reason for Jack's death, if Jack didn't die, who knows what would be? Ennis may change his mind and they can have a sweet life together
Sorry for my bad English, hope yll can understand what I want to say :(
Welcome Diepcon.
JFT is right. It is best to dwell on your love for Ennis and Jack, and not on the hate. Many other members share your feelings about Randall. And why not? Others don't. Why is that? You see. This points to a good discussion, if you so wish to enter into your own and other people's feelings.
What makes Randall interesting is his enigmatic, though potentially significant role in the story. Love him or hate him, he is part of the key into understanding Jack's end.
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Uhmmm, sorry for my.... I don't know, hatred of Randall. But I don't agree with JFT, Jack may have sex with many men before he met Ennis, but I would like to emphasize that Ennis is his only LOVE. I think there are many differences between sex and love, true love. And if Jack doesn't love Ennis anymore, why did he meet Ennis anytime he could?
Well, sorry if my reply is not under the topic!
Thank u for reply me, I really appreciate it. <^(
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I think JFT would agree with you here. I think his objection was whether or not Randall was the cause of Jack's death.
I think we all agree that Ennis was Jack's true and only love. Randall could not have competed, as Jack died before anything could have been accomplished in the matter of the sweet life. We can't tell for sure how things would have developed, because Randall's relationship with Jack is so shadowy and enigmatic. Again, we learn more about ourselves and our feelings (rather than about Randall) when we tackle the question at hand.
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I don;t think she had him killed but I do believe she knows the true nature of his death- that little story she told Ennis was too rehear**d plus the "He was only 39 yrs old" was part of her speech.
I second that.
3 hours ago, I saw BBM again, and during the "phone scene" I watched carefuly Lureen's face : Wet eyes, she said "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean."
About the ashes, I mean. in a quite ironical way !
I think, she was completely aware of who really was Jack, and how he finished. :\'(
About Randall, I think Jack began something with him in order to fill a miss. He missed Ennis so much, and Ennis was not disponible as he used to be as before. But Randall was not Ennis, and Jack continued being tormented. He told Ennis : Truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it..."
I guess, to meet Ennis less and less often, was too hard for Jake, and maybe he took useless risks, hoping unconsciously to finish some with his life.... :\'( :\'(
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The enigmatic part of the text is as follows:
The old man spoke angrily. I cant get no help out here. Jack used a say, Ennis del Mar, he used a say, Im goin a bring him up here one a these days and well lick this damn ranch into shape. He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin, and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then this spring hes got another ones goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. Hes goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jacks ideas it never come to pass.
So now he knew it had been the tire iron.
(Proulx - Brokeback Mountain 1997)
It seems that, to Ennis, there was a connection between Jack's murder and his wanting a divorce from Lureen and planning a sweet life with Randall.
Differing things can be inferrred from this: the possibility of being murdered because of wanting a divorce (and Lureen finding out the true circumstances), or a foolhardy wish for a change of lifestyle that led to an incidental murder.
The text is vague enough to accomodate both interpretations, IMO. But to be sure, Randall and Jack's attempt to live a sweet life with him is associated by Ennis with the certainty of Jack being murdered.
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I think we all agree that Ennis was Jack's true and only love.
Oh yes!!! No doubt about that at all. I feel safe in saying we all agree on this point. They were the loves of each others lives.
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I don't waste time in hate - be it Randal, or Jacks parents or anybody else. The core of the story is love. However frurstrated, unconventional, secret and tragic - its love.
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Oh yes!!! No doubt about that at all. I feel safe in saying we all agree on this point. They were the loves of each others lives.
Even Randall must have recognized that if he knew. If he didn't know, it wouldn't take too long for Jack to show it somehow or other...
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Even Randall must have recognized that if he knew. If he didn't know, it wouldn't take too long for Jack to show it somehow or other...
agreed, it would have shown.
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agreed, it would have shown.
Jack was far too emotive to conceal it for very long... And judging from Randall reading Jack correctly during the cabin episode, I suspect that Randall would also be attuned to such things.
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completely agree with this Tpe
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I agree that Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis. I think even if Jack had gotten Randall up there to the Twist ranch (had he lived :( ) it would have been overshadowed by the fact that Jack wanted it to be Ennis with him there for so long.
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I agree that Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis. I think even if Jack had gotten Randall up there to the Twist ranch (had he lived :( ) it would have been overshadowed by the fact that Jack wanted it to be Ennis with him there for so long.
I also agree Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis. Even if he didn't, I think Mr. Twist would have said something to Randall about Ennis at some point, especially if he and Jack were at odds about anything.
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If it was a fact , ( and I'm not sure now), that Jack was going to bring Randall to LF to help fix up the ranch with him,then might Jack have mentioned Ennis to Randall himself if he felt this close to Randall to consider LIVING with him. After all they were very secretive and like minded . It's a a scarce fluke for Jack to meet Randall ( another married gay man in that small town of Childress Texas at that time) It's a possibility, i think this because Mr. Twist knew Ennis by name ("Jack used to say") as if he'd heard the name said before and about the "ranch neighbor" without ever meeting him. Jack had to have mentioned these people to one or both of his parents.Maybe Jack and Randall shared things. I guess I'm suggesting that even though Jack was defintitly in love with Ennis , but Maybe this WAS more than just sex with Randall. He had alot to offer Jack. Maybe the feelings were deeper? but limited. Just a thought.
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I agree that Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis. I think even if Jack had gotten Randall up there to the Twist ranch (had he lived :( ) it would have been overshadowed by the fact that Jack wanted it to be Ennis with him there for so long.
And we may ask: wouldn't moving closer to Ennis be a recipe for disaster as far as the relationship with Randall is concerned?
It is possible that Jack could have been using the relationship with Randall as a trump card to get Ennis's position out in the open, so to speak. If this is true, then I doubt that Randall would have known about it and that this was perhaps a subconscious motive on Jack's part.
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It's a a scarce fluke for Jack to meet Randall ( another married gay man in that small town of Childress Texas at that time)
He had alot to offer Jack. Maybe the feelings were deeper? but limited. Just a thought.
Its not a fluke at all. Lots of men get up to this sort of thing all the time. (And I know from extensive experience!) I feel it was more quick sex - literally getting away from the blondes for a few days to get in some serious man on man action. At least at first.
Jack must have been one to talk about his ideas. I'm sure Ennis never wanted to live with him on his parents ranch, and maybe Randal new nothing about this either!
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I ae with JFT. when you see how terrified Ennis is of the idea of people seeing him with Jack or suspecting there's something odd about him, there's no way he'd live with Jack on his parents' land with their knowing what the relationship is. I don't know whether Randall hypothetically would either. It strikes me that the idea of bringing someone with him up to Lightning Flat was one of Jack's little fantasies - he had evidently thought out the details of the sweet life without consulting Ennis, only to find there was no way Ennis would go along and this is another example of the same thing.
Randall evidently has qualifications and no trouble getting a job - why would he want to take on Jack's father's failing ranch? If he knew anything about it, he would know that it was in the wrong place and was never likely to succeed.
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It strikes me that the idea of bringing someone with him up to Lightning Flat was one of Jack's little fantasies -
completely agree with this WW
and telling this to his father, may be a little bit like a provocation against his father and especially Ennis
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...Randall evidently has qualifications and no trouble getting a job - why would he want to take on Jack's father's failing ranch? If he knew anything about it, he would know that it was in the wrong place and was never likely to succeed.
Interesting points JFT and welshwitch. Jack was regarded as a dreamer. It wouldn't be off-base to consider the possiblity of Randall knowing nothing about Jacks plans for LF.
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I don't think there's enough information to draw any real conclusions as far as the relationship between Jack and his dad went at this time. We never saw them interact face to face. We do know that they did'nt get along well though, but to what degree? Jack is much older now and relationships change or at least settle into a "cease-fire so that there is at least civility. Jack visited his parents several times, over the years even discussed Ennis openly with them. There were no shotguns pulled or warnings not to show up there again either. I think as Jack got older there was an uneasy truce, with his dad, but we don't know the dynamics of the relationship as in how well Jack could hold his own against the ol man. we only have one side. In what way could Jack persuade his father on matters? , Man to man now. and to what degree? Any respect at all? These are important questions left unanswered. We have no real insight as to who really had the upper hand here.( if there was one) Sure ,Jack was a dreamer, but to him those dreams were born of a real love ,therfore can we really say that Jack himself knew that ,as he dreamed, that it all was an impossbility? Dismissed as fantasy only? After all he was persistent. We're talkin headstrong when he put his mind to something he wanted. Maybe living in LF with Ennis was a fantasy, but Jack had a plan to turn fantasy into reality. A long and hard step by step process. He was missing one important part of the puzzle though. Ennis's commitment. Major setback? yes. But he died during in his stuggle to do this..... to make his dreams come true wether it be with Randall ,or Ennis. ~) so long. My opinion.
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I ae with JFT. when you see how terrified Ennis is of the idea of people seeing him with Jack or suspecting there's something odd about him, there's no way he'd live with Jack on his parents' land with their knowing what the relationship is. I don't know whether Randall hypothetically would either. It strikes me that the idea of bringing someone with him up to Lightning Flat was one of Jack's little fantasies - he had evidently thought out the details of the sweet life without consulting Ennis, only to find there was no way Ennis would go along and this is another example of the same thing.
Randall evidently has qualifications and no trouble getting a job - why would he want to take on Jack's father's failing ranch? If he knew anything about it, he would know that it was in the wrong place and was never likely to succeed.
Two guys living together? No Way.
I think it didn't matter where and with whom. Ennis's springs from the memory of Rich and Earl. I don't think Randall had the same issues, but we shall never know what his real intentions were with Jack.
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We never saw them interact face to face.
There was of course the garage scene with Randall and Jack which was present at the initial release but cut subsequently.
With any luck this and the other scenes will be included on the next issue of the DVD in a couple of weeks.
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But isn't it a neat parallel that Jack and Ennis are side by side up on the mountain in the "I ain't queer" scene and Randall and Jack are side by side not face to face in the scene where Randall propositions Jack.
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My personal feeling is: it is a good thing that Ang Lee edited out the supposed scene between Randall, Jack, and the mechanics -- it certainly would have been to much for me to bear.
No wonder Jake Gyllenhaal gave his sad assessment of Jack's faithfulness. He must have given it in light of certain deleted scenes...
tpe: I'm several months behind, as you can see. I didn't see that deleted scene. Can you explain a little? What was the "sad assessment"? Sorry if i'm asking you to repeat - if there are more posts on this, you can just direct me to them. Thanks,
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Sorry Browneyes, I was too sleepy to stay online and Stacp I'm Ok with most of what you say, the "charade" part!
The grieving of Jack is in two steps. Well, it is my point of vue, a little particular maybe, so be patient, it might be long! After the second meeting we see Jack getting better and better when Ennis is getting down. After the divorce it became the opposite. Jack went to Riverton in pure excitation and he made two mistakes:
- First he went because he thought he could be a cure for his friend's pain and he discover he is the cause
- Second he asked his way at ten persons.... his place was "out of nowhere" not in Riverton, see how Ennis see the car that pass away
So there is a break, the dance is over, Jack received his second bad punch. He is not going to Mexico by lust, he is trying to quit Ennis! Jack is an abused child (remember what hapened when he was four years) and like all the abused children he is in the power of the hangman, John, his father. Ennis is the opposite, he is under his power too, but that is the way of life. With Ennis, he is like a child and he could not bear to be forlorn a second time. In Mexico, he try to be a man, he is not having sex or fun (look his face), he take the post of his father and he, himself, will abuse a child, the hustler, a willing one. First step of mourning, he takes a mustache a virile attribute but loose he smile, we shall never see him happy after.
The second step is during the stroll that follow. Jack try again to cure Ennis of his sadness, as always he jokes of himself, of his life in Texas, and it goes. For a moment Ennis opens himself and speak of his fear, that is the only time! But Jack is afraid now and his answer is elusive. He said "maybe you should leave" and he he would have said "Yes, I know that fear, when I met again Aguirre I was so terrified that I ran away down to Texas" Ennis understand that Jack is joking with him and burst out in rage.... "Jack, f** Twist". It all tenderness at the second meeting but now it is a leaving. Jack understand that he will never be anymore the cure for Ennis and that was the core of his desire for him. That is why he is not only grieving, he is dying: Randall is too late, Jack has not enough life in him... "sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it!" that is not a figure of style, that is pure truth
As I said, it is my point of view, others are possibles!
I missed something - Jack was abused? At age 4? Where does that come out? :s)
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Aintfoolin, I wouldn't say Randall's proposition outside on the bench was the first move. In my eyes, the first move comes from Jack, when he asks LaShawn to dance, looking at Randall all the while. I always felt that this was an incredibly clear signal, even a dangerous one. Especially as he goes on looking at Randall (I think I would faint if he looked at me like that) and asks: "You don't mind, do you". If that isn't a complete come on, I don't know what would be. Randall would have had to be made of stone or 150% hetero not to have realised that Jack was interested. Or am I the only one to feel that both Jacks look and his words are double entendres?
monicita
I think Randall made the first move - when he gave Jack that look at the table. Asking Randall's permission to dance with LaShawn was just a courtesy - anyone would/should ask permission. But - i need to go do more research - I don't recall a lot of things about this scene, apparently, but I do remember thinking that Randall's look was the first indication that he was interested in Jack - & Jack looked away. Am I wrong? ???
I didn't like Randall - mostly because I wanted Jack saved for Ennis. I also didn't think Randall was particular attractive. But - I would like to see all the delete scenes be put on the new DVD - it might clear up several things - although I also think it might deminish our feelings for Jack & Ennis as a couple.
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I think Randall made the first move - when he gave Jack that look at the table. Asking Randall's permission to dance with LaShawn was just a courtesy - anyone would/should ask permission. But - i need to go do more research - I don't recall a lot of things about this scene
This scene is well worth watching again. The scene with Randall and Jack sitting outside is full of tips on how to chat up "stright" men who also dabble on the other side of the fence. It is all double meaning. Everything Randall said could be taken literally (innocent) or between the lines (a clear proposition).
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This scene is well worth watching again. The scene with Randall and Jack sitting outside is full of tips on how to chat up "stright" men who also dabble on the other side of the fence. It is all double meaning. Everything Randall said could be taken literally (innocent) or between the lines (a clear proposition).
So true, and I don't know if there's was allready a discussion on this, but I noticed how Randall was stroking his cigarette also.. I don't know if this means anything ...
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But isn't it a neat parallel that Jack and Ennis are side by side up on the mountain in the "I ain't queer" scene and Randall and Jack are side by side not face to face in the scene where Randall propositions Jack.
Yes! A most wonderful parallel! It was as if this was something they could not talk about while looking at each other's eyes.
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tpe: I'm several months behind, as you can see. I didn't see that deleted scene. Can you explain a little? What was the "sad assessment"? Sorry if i'm asking you to repeat - if there are more posts on this, you can just direct me to them. Thanks,
BBM Fan, sorry, but I only saw pictures of the scene in question. It would seem that this was right before Jack was murdered, and that Jack and andall had embraced. The details are sketchy, but I was lead to believe that this had something to do with the attack and subsequent murder of Jack.
I can't find the excerpt of the interview right now, but it was the comment Jake made that Ennis's love was more faithful than Jack's, because Jack gave up in the end... I will try to find it, but I posted it a number of times in the other threads...
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What was the "sad assessment"? Sorry if i'm asking you to repeat - if there are more posts on this, you can just direct me to them. Thanks,
I found the excerpt from Jake's interview:
Q: Did Ennis want to go to Mexico?
J.G.: No, in some ways I think maybe Enniss love is even stronger in that way because there is a faithfulness to that, and I think you see that happen. I think Jack eventually goes, Im going to have to go on with my life. Im going to have to find someone else and find an intimacy with him and try and figure that out. And he does. He says at the end
His Dad says he brought some other guy here and they were gonna work on the farm.
The implication is that Jake believed that Jack decided to move on and have a sweet life with Randall.
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I missed something - Jack was abused? At age 4? Where does that come out? :s)
OT: In the short story. The episode when Ennis remembers Jack telling how his father urinated on him as a boy when he was having problems.
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So true, and I don't know if there's was allready a discussion on this, but I noticed how Randall was stroking his cigarette also.. I don't know if this means anything ...
I noticed that. It could be an innocent gesture. But with Randall and Jack, we can never really tell...
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I noticed that. It could be an innocent gesture. But with Randall and Jack, we can never really tell...
True, we really can't. But what if it was a inviting gesture? Randall was speaking most of the time, and gesturing that cabin "vacation" . But that cigarette stroking is kinda disgusting in a other way.. Like he was seducing him...
Randall = Devil.
IMO
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True, we really can't. But what if it was a inviting gesture? Randall was speaking most of the time, and gesturing that cabin "vacation" . But that cigarette stroking is kinda disgusting in a other way.. Like he was seducing him...
Randall = Devil.
IMO
Yes, although I don't want to think of Randall as the Devil. After all, can we blame Randall his attraction? Like Jack, Randall seemed to know exacly what he wants.
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Yes, although I don't want to think of Randall as the Devil. After all, can we blame Randall his attraction? Like Jack, Randall seemed to know exacly what he wants.
But Randall was talking kinda dirty way, almost a straight suggestion. We don't know, what Jack answered then, and how he did, but he was seduced, IMO.
And Randall wasn't that attractive. Jack would have had better.
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But Randall was talking kinda dirty way, almost a straight suggestion. We don't know, what Jack answered then, and how he did, but he was seduced, IMO.
And Randall wasn't that attractive. Jack would have had better.
Attraction is in the eye of the beholder, and I am aware of other members expressing their opinion that Randall was attractive. Perhaps it was also his forwardness that stimulated Jack to probe further. After all, people many times fall in love with a persona, an attitude, even before they know anything deeper about an individual. This is why there seem to be many oddly-matched couples everywhere. Upon digging deeper, we realize some logic behind these curious pairings...
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Attraction is in the eye of the beholder, and I am aware of other members expressing their opinion that Randall was attractive. Perhaps it was also his forwardness that stimulated Jack to probe further. After all, people many times fall in love with a persona, an attitude, even before they know anything deeper about an individual. This is why there seem to be many oddly-matched couples everywhere. Upon digging deeper, we realize some logic behind these curious pairings...
What's your opinion on Randall? Was he attractive? You are true about that the attraction is in the eyes of the beholder, but maybe Jack didn't think, that Randall was attractive. He just thought that he was a man, who could satisfy his needs, unlike Ennis in the later days..
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That look!! Gives me chillies...
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But Jack's look is kinda serching.. And wondering.. Is he, is he not..
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Like a death silence...
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Did he just suggested a "vacation" ?
This looks gives me chillies also..
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Did he just suggested a "vacation" ?
This looks gives me chillies also..
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg307.imageshack.us%2Fimg307%2F4489%2Fbscap1377ov6.jpg&hash=38b1a6d045bccaa75631561c5f75c57d01e89d36)
Randall had the most exquisite taste... And the best of luck...
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Randall had the most exquisite taste... And the best of luck...
I agree with the taste, of course, he got Jack Twist!! But Jack would have had better.. And we don't know, if it was Randall who told about Jack.. We don't know, but that was my suggestion...
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I was thinking about the "Randall as the devil" comment and trying to see him as Jack's bad angel, and Ennis as his good one. But I don't think it works - Randall is just trying and Jack can simply turn him down. It's all so oblique that if he just said it would be hard to get away Randall wouldn't even have to look offended. And you can;t blame the guy for trying; let's face it, we would.
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I agree WW . Randall was just trying to find someone to share his time and real desires with. He lucked out finding Jack. There was nothing "evil" about it or him at all. Jack and Lureen happened along after Randall's vehicle broke down. So this was a chance meeting between the two. If I were Randall and had the choice to spend time with Jack or LaShawn ,the choice becomes even more clearer....Jack!. Ya can't blame Randall......At least the man could have a two-way conversation with someone.! ;D. Jack and Randall were flirting at the the table, ( literally right under their wives' noses) but when Randall actually proposed doing something about it , Jack was caught off guard. The reality of Randall's proposal was unexpected.
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DId Jack give Randall the impression that he was interested -- else, fishing for such a proposal? There was a pregnant silence in ther middle of this scene before Jack asked "Do you like working for Roy Taylor?" It seems like he wouldn't let the conversation die into silence, and Randall was probably encouraged by that. Still, one can also argue that Jack was just being polite. Their motives are very hard to read with precision...
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Yes, tpe, the uncomfortable silence was very telling. I think Jack was just trying to make conversation, with Randall, but it was a statement instead of a question, I beleive. ("you'll like working for Roy Taylor" )suggesting that Jack was familiar with this Roy Taylor also. Apparently Randall had just started the foreman job as LaShawn alluded to earlier at the table. It also shows that up until that point Randall had every intention of asking Jack to be with him all along. He just had to find a way to do it delicately. And the way he did it in that quiet suggestive manner? It was his way of confirming the signals he got from Jack.
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Considering Jack and Randall had a very short time alone (while their wives were "powdering" their noses), Randall must have been quite used to this, as he showed no tendency to rush or hurry. Perhpas he was much more experienced than Jack, I wonder? Randall, after all, moved in a much more sophisticated world than ack (e.g., university).
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OT - I love the notion that people at unversity are sophisticated!
But I agree everything about Randall - the way he behaves, the way he's dressed - suggest someone who is settled and at home with himself - he's evidently taken on LaShawn quite deliberately but you have to admit that she's quite good camouflage for him. People must be so busy not believing their ears when she starts then goes on and on and on that Randall has plenty of time to do his own thing, scoping people out and so on. Not to mention that she's so hard to shut up or break in on that they must be trapped (like the Wedding Guest with the Ancient Mariner).
Some people must also wonder why someone so quiet and apparently together would marry someone so noisy and apparently insecure, thoiugh, surely?
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Some people must also wonder why someone so quiet and apparently together would marry someone so noisy and apparently insecure, thoiugh, surely?
In a way, LaShawn was a perfect match for Randall. She probably never suspected...
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Wow! I've thought this many times you two! She made it easy for the both of them to quietly make this arrangement possible for sure. They used her excessive talking to their advantage. The woman never had a clue."Lively little gal"? Yes Indeedy!.
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Wow! I've thought this many times you two! She made it easy for the both of them to quietly make this arrangement possible for sure. They used her excessive talking to their advantage. The woman never had a clue."Lively little gal"? Yes Indeedy!.
Did she ever know? I assume Randall survived Jack. Randall probably moved on -- searching for other men to connect with. I am sure he was condfident in the knowledge that LaShawn was blind to it all -- engrossed as she is with her own world of endless talk and self-centeredness.
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Yes, tpe, the uncomfortable silence was very telling. I think Jack was just trying to make conversation, with Randall, but it was a statement instead of a question, I believe. ("you'll like working for Roy Taylor" )suggesting that Jack was familiar with this Roy Taylor also. Apparently Randall had just started the foreman job as LaShawn alluded to earlier at the table. It also shows that up until that point Randall had every intention of asking Jack to be with him all along. He just had to find a way to do it delicately. And the way he did it in that quiet suggestive manner? It was his way of confirming the signals he got from Jack.
I just don't see Jack giving Randall any signals. When Randall smiles at him at the table, Jack's eyes move away from him. (One thing that was a little odd, was when Jack asked LaShawn to dance & Randall's eyes darted quickly away from Jack to LaShawn. What was that all about?) Yes, Jack looks away from LaShawn when they're dancing, but was he really looking at Randall? When they were outside & Randall suggests they go to the cabin, Jack stared blankly ahead & I don't think he gave any indication that he was interested. I think the small talk was Jack's way of passing time & keeping the conversation on things other than the 2 of them. It was obvious that Randall was pursuing Jack. But I think mention of going to the cabin only made Jack think of & want Ennis more. Am I wrong? Huh? ???
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I just don't see Jack giving Randall any signals. When Randall smiles at him at the table, Jack's eyes move away from him. (One thing that was a little odd, was when Jack asked LaShawn to dance & Randall's eyes darted quickly away from Jack to LaShawn. What was that all about?) Yes, Jack looks away from LaShawn when they're dancing, but was he really looking at Randall? When they were outside & Randall suggests they go to the cabin, Jack stared blankly ahead & I don't think he gave any indication that he was interested. I think the small talk was Jack's way of passing time & keeping the conversation on things other than the 2 of them. It was obvious that Randall was pursuing Jack. But I think mention of going to the cabin only made Jack think of & want Ennis more. Am I wrong? Huh? ???
I suspect that Jack moving away his gaze is a mannerism that was born of some inherent shyness.
Why do I say this? Another instance in the movie where such a thing occurs is when he first meets Lureen at the bar. Jack clearly was interested in Lureen at that moment, because he was flattered at her attention during the winning rodeo bull ride (as indicated by the screenplay for the bull riding scene, if I recall correctly).
But when Lureen returned his gaze, Jack immediately moves his gaze and nervously pretends not to notice. When Lureen confronts him, he bites his lip nervously and is tongue-tied (awesome acting from Jake Gyllenhaal in this scene!)
I think we can extrapolate this to the scene with Randall. The contrast is that when Randall looks at Jack and smiles, Jack coolly turns his gaze away and continues the conversation without a break or sign of nervousness. He has learned a bit of subtlety over they years, even though he was still inherently abashed in such situations.
But I must admit that one counter-example to this in the movie appears to be the scene with the Rodeo clown at the bar. Here, Jack meets the clown's gaze with a humger that is unmistakable -- enough to unnerve the clown who makes a hasty retreat. Desperation on Jack's part, perhaps?
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The eye to eye contact at the table with Randall convinced me that Jack saw possibilities with him . Randall reciprecated that breif but telling staredown. No doubt in my mind, that it was a signal, an understanding if you will. I guess him being so shy attests the fact that he does'nt see himself as others do. He does'nt realize that he is SO friggin handsome and acts accordingly when approached by interested or potential suitors.This is part of what makes him so damn sexy IMO. Please, don't get me started ;D ;)
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The eye to eye contact at the table with Randall convinced me that Jack saw possibilities with him . Randall reciprecated that breif but telling staredown. No doubt in my mind, that it was a signal, an understanding if you will. I guess him being so shy attests the fact that he does'nt see himself as others do. He does'nt realize that he is SO friggin handsome and acts accordingly when approached by interested or potential suitors.This is part of what makes him so damn sexy IMO. Please, don't get me started ;D ;)
I do personally see it this way: that Jack sensed possibilities. Randall was much more forward at the table, IMO. I don't think Jack strongly encouraged him then, but he probably gave enough away to tantalize Randall.
As for not knowing his own merits, perhaps it is because he feels inadequate and not on the same level with a lot of these people who had similar backgrounds like Randall and Lureen. I note that with those who we may consider to be subordinate to Jack -- the rodeo clown and the prostitute -- Jack was forward enough...
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This is another place where Jack is apparently an outsider - Lureen is supposed to have gone to university, and LaShawn, though the idea of her being a graduate is hysterically funny, and Randall - they are alll talking about instirutions and sororities and he is left out - then Randall comes on to him. Wonder if Jack thinks Randall thinks him an easy "victim" in some way?
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This is another place where Jack is apparently an outsider - Lureen is supposed to have gone to university, and LaShawn, though the idea of her being a graduate is hysterically funny, and Randall - they are alll talking about instirutions and sororities and he is left out - then Randall comes on to him. Wonder if Jack thinks Randall thinks him an easy "victim" in some way?
Jack was out of his element. Did Jack know many people with Randall's background? It would appear that Randall had much more confidence than Jack. Perhaps this was part of the attraction?
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I suspect that Jack moving away his gaze is a mannerism that was born of some inherent shyness.
Why do I say this? Another instance in the movie where such a thing occurs is when he first meets Lureen at the bar. Jack clearly was interested in Lureen at that moment, because he was flattered at her attention during the winning rodeo bull ride (as indicated by the screenplay for the bull riding scene, if I recall correctly).
But when Lureen returned his gaze, Jack immediately moves his gaze and nervously pretends not to notice. When Lureen confronts him, he bites his lip nervously and is tongue-tied (awesome acting from Jake Gyllenhaal in this scene!)
I think we can extrapolate this to the scene with Randall. The contrast is that when Randall looks at Jack and smiles, Jack coolly turns his gaze away and continues the conversation without a break or sign of nervousness. He has learned a bit of subtlety over they years, even though he was still inherently abashed in such situations.
But I must admit that one counter-example to this in the movie appears to be the scene with the Rodeo clown at the bar. Here, Jack meets the clown's gaze with a hunger that is unmistakable -- enough to unnerve the clown who makes a hasty retreat. Desperation on Jack's part, perhaps?
Good points.
See, I took the scene with the clown as Jack wanting to pursue that - it was evident to me. With Lureen at the bar, I think he was interested, but hesitant - possibly still thinking of Ennis? But with that old Randall, I didn't get the sense that he was interested at all - in fact, I felt that he was really uncomfortable at Randall's advances. Maybe it WAS just being shy or nervous, but I still feel he wasn't interested - still pining for Ennis & perhaps wondering how it would be at the ranch owner's cabin with Ennis. Hummm? tpe - you've forced me to go watch the movie again. My only regret - that I didn't start counting the # of times - has to be well over 30.
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Good points.
See, I took the scene with the clown as Jack wanting to pursue that - it was evident to me. With Lureen at the bar, I think he was interested, but hesitant - possibly still thinking of Ennis? But with that old Randall, I didn't get the sense that he was interested at all - in fact, I felt that he was really uncomfortable at Randall's advances. Maybe it WAS just being shy or nervous, but I still feel he wasn't interested - still pining for Ennis & perhaps wondering how it would be at the ranch owner's cabin with Ennis. Hummm? tpe - you've forced me to go watch the movie again. My only regret - that I didn't start counting the # of times - has to be well over 30.
I do think Jack was probably curious, but I agree with you that when Randall's subtle proposal came, Jack was probably disturbed. In his eyes at that moment, I felt that he was thinking about Ennis, and it had the same look in his eyes when he was dancing with Lureen -- again, thinking about Ennis, IMO.
In spite of this, I do think Jack did have something going on with Randall. Did Jack love him in the end? I don't know. He probably loved him for a willingness to share a life with him (assuming that Randall was indeed up for it). But I think his true love is Ennis. Again, there is a great difference in that.
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In which case Randall woud always have been second best; I wonder how long it would have ben before he'd found that out?
Eg, if he had come to Lightning Flat, Jack would have had to hide or get rid of the shirts, since they wouldn't exactly be easy to explain. and wouldn't John Twist have given the game away anyhow? He'd have enjoyed disrupting things by mentioning "the other fella" who was going to come there with Jack originally.
It's also a much more unlikely scenario than that of Ennis coming there - Ennis has no proper home, no settled family, and has a fairly standard job he could do anywhere, whereas Randall would be a divorce, with a voluble wife out there somewhere, and a college education - what would Lightning Flat have for him, except Jack, and I rather doubt he or Jack could say that openly.
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In which case Randall woud always have been second best; I wonder how long it would have ben before he'd found that out?
Eg, if he had come to Lightning Flat, Jack would have had to hide or get rid of the shirts, since they wouldn't exactly be easy to explain. and wouldn't John Twist have given the game away anyhow? He'd have enjoyed disrupting things by mentioning "the other fella" who was going to come there with Jack originally.
It's also a much more unlikely scenario than that of Ennis coming there - Ennis has no proper home, no settled family, and has a fairly standard job he could do anywhere, whereas Randall would be a divorce, with a voluble wife out there somewhere, and a college education - what would Lightning Flat have for him, except Jack, and I rather doubt he or Jack could say that openly.
I doubt that Randall and Jack would ever live in the same house with Jack's parents, so jack's room will remain intact and that the shirst will remain safe and undisturbed.
I would suppose that Randall and Jack would build a cabin in the ranch grounds, just as Jack planned for himself and Ennis.
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I do think Jack was probably curious, but I agree with you that when Randall's subtle proposal came, Jack was probably disturbed. In his eyes at that moment, I felt that he was thinking about Ennis, and it had the same look in his eyes when he was dancing with Lureen -- again, thinking about Ennis, IMO.
In spite of this, I do think Jack did have something going on with Randall. Did Jack love him in the end? I don't know. He probably loved him for a willingness to share a life with him (assuming that Randall was indeed up for it). But I think his true love is Ennis. Again, there is a great difference in that.
I agree tpe! As much as I liked Randall (what little we know of him), I can't ignore how much of Jack's heart was invested in Ennis. Randall was a good catch, but not the one who gripped Jack's heart.
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I agree tpe! As much as I liked Randall (what little we know of him), I can't ignore how much of Jack's heart was invested in Ennis. Randall was a good catch, but not the one who gripped Jack's heart.
I'm sorry, guys, but I didn't like Randall at all. :X It was partially due to his arrogant attitude, IMO, & the fact that he was horning in on Ennis' territory. I agree that Jack would have probably settled for him - they wouldn't have lived in his childhood bedroom - too small & I doubt Dad would have allowed it. I also agree that Dad would have spilled the beans about the other fella - Ennis - just to be nasty (John Nasty) & disrupt Jack's life.. Basically, I don't like to think of that old Randall being in the picture at all - sorry.
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I agree tpe! As much as I liked Randall (what little we know of him), I can't ignore how much of Jack's heart was invested in Ennis. Randall was a good catch, but not the one who gripped Jack's heart.
We also shouldn't forget that initially, Ennis himself appeared like an unlikely candidate to win Jack's heart. Perhaps we tend to be too harsh on Randall in the sense that he probably never got the opportunity to take his affair with Jack on a deeper level, as Jack's heart implicitly fended off any such attempt for love of Ennis.
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I'm sorry, guys, but I didn't like Randall at all. :X It was partially due to his arrogant attitude, IMO, & the fact that he was horning in on Ennis' territory. I agree that Jack would have probably settled for him - they wouldn't have lived in his childhood bedroom - too small & I doubt Dad would have allowed it. I also agree that Dad would have spilled the beans about the other fella - Ennis - just to be nasty (John Nasty) & disrupt Jack's life.. Basically, I don't like to think of that old Randall being in the picture at all - sorry.
I personally don't think we know enough of Randall to say with certainty that he was arrogant. He is too shadowy a character. But I think there is enough in the conversation scene to suspect that he was more soft-spoken and subtle, rather than arrogant. After all, he was the direct opposite of LaShawn -- and for a reason.
And it might be unfair for us to say that he was horning in on Ennis's territory. How could he have known initially? There is no evidence to suggest that Jack really talked about Ennis with him (although this would have been inevitable in the long run.) If there is a person to blame here (and I say if), it would be Jack, for opening the door for Randall to come into his life. And yet we know what drove Jack to do this: his frustration with Ennis.
Still, Randall is so shadowy that my opinion in this matter is just as good as anybody's here. My sympathy for Randall reveals more about myself than about Randall, no? Where there are lacunae, it is natural for us to try to fill them in with our own images and impressions. This is what makes Randall so fascinating to discuss. :)
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When/if I contemplate the idea of Jack settling for Randall, I think of the saying, "We live not as we would but as we may."
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Jack did what he can. He needed someone to hold him. If Randall was that someone who gave him such a hope, then maybe it was not for nothing.
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I'm sorry, guys, but I didn't like Randall at all. :X It was partially due to his arrogant attitude, IMO, & the fact that he was horning in on Ennis' territory. I agree that Jack would have probably settled for him - they wouldn't have lived in his childhood bedroom - too small & I doubt Dad would have allowed it. I also agree that Dad would have spilled the beans about the other fella - Ennis - just to be nasty (John Nasty) & disrupt Jack's life.. Basically, I don't like to think of that old Randall being in the picture at all - sorry.
Although I wanted Ennis and Jack together as much as the next fan, I don't see Randall as a wedge that hampered Ennis and Jack's possible union. As mentioned throughout this thread, Randall probably knew nothing of Ennis.
BBM Fan I do agree that Jack's dad might have spilled the beans about the other fella had Jack and Randall tried to make a go of it i LF.
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The proposition did'nt come out of nowhere either. Jack was'nt being overly flirtatous, but there was enough there to give Randall ideas. As so in real life. Maybe Jack thought of it as innocent flirting, but to his discovery Randall actually took the bait. I don't see the arrogance here either.I agree , the guy was just a soft-spoken cowboy ranch foreman, trapped in a convenient marriage looking for a little extraccurricular activities. People are indeed hard on Randall at times on the thread. I was at one time myself ,but studying the scene more closely I saw a different story. This relationship is very, very intriguing to me . It shows a test of Jack's love for Ennis.
Although I wanted Ennis and Jack together as much as the next fan, I don't see Randall as a wedge that hampered Ennis and Jack's possible union. As mentioned throughout this thread, Randall probably knew nothing of Ennis.
BBM Fan I do agree that Jack's dad might have spilled the beans about the other fella had Jack and Randall tried to make a go of it i LF.
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Did he just suggested a "vacation" ?
This looks gives me chillies also..
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg307.imageshack.us%2Fimg307%2F4489%2Fbscap1377ov6.jpg&hash=38b1a6d045bccaa75631561c5f75c57d01e89d36)
This look is why I don't think Jack came on to Randall. I think Randall was a last resort - because Jack was desperate for something he never hardly got.
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I agree WW . Randall was just trying to find someone to share his time and real desires with. He lucked out finding Jack. There was nothing "evil" about it or him at all. Jack and Lureen happened along after Randall's vehicle broke down. So this was a chance meeting between the two. If I were Randall and had the choice to spend time with Jack or LaShawn ,the choice becomes even more clearer....Jack!. Ya can't blame Randall......At least the man could have a two-way conversation with someone.! ;D. Jack and Randall were flirting at the the table, ( literally right under their wives' noses) but when Randall actually proposed doing something about it , Jack was caught off guard. The reality of Randall's proposal was unexpected.
I just don't see any flirting on Jack's part. What am I missing? Everyone else seems to think he was. :s)
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I personally don't think we know enough of Randall to say with certainty that he was arrogant. He is too shadowy a character. But I think there is enough in the conversation scene to suspect that he was more soft-spoken and subtle, rather than arrogant. After all, he was the direct opposite of LaShawn -- and for a reason.
And it might be unfair for us to say that he was horning in on Ennis's territory. How could he have known initially? There is no evidence to suggest that Jack really talked about Ennis with him (although this would have been inevitable in the long run.) If there is a person to blame here (and I say if), it would be Jack, for opening the door for Randall to come into his life. And yet we know what drove Jack to do this: his frustration with Ennis.
Still, Randall is so shadowy that my opinion in this matter is just as good as anybody's here. My sympathy for Randall reveals more about myself than about Randall, no? Where there are lacunae, it is natural for us to try to fill them in with our own images and impressions. This is what makes Randall so fascinating to discuss. :)
I guess arrogant isn't the right word, but I used it because of the way he just sat there & smiled. He didn't know about Ennis at that time - I was just being protective of him (Ennis) and saying on Ennis' behalf - stay away from my man. Although if Ennis had been confronted with Jack & Randall, I have doubts that he would have done anything. Who knows - I just didn't want Jack with anyone else. Bottomline
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I guess arrogant isn't the right word, but I used it because of the way he just sat there & smiled. He didn't know about Ennis at that time - I was just being protective of him (Ennis) and saying on Ennis' behalf - stay away from my man. Although if Ennis had been confronted with Jack & Randall, I have doubts that he would have done anything. Who knows - I just didn't want Jack with anyone else. Bottomline
I don't blame you. Neither do I. I know two soulmates when I see them.
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I don't blame you. Neither do I. I know two soulmates when I see them.
that's right. CSC: Randall is probably an ok guy, but just not with any of our guys.
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Thanks for the picture BBM fan. His look in the picture could be interpreted several ways imo. He could be contemplating how to handle this propsition and how it will affect his relationship in the future with Ennis or just what to say next. They were interrupted before we found out. No doubt he truly loved Ennis. He is the one Jack really wanted.
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Thanks for the picture BBM fan. His look in the picture could be interpreted several ways imo. He could be contemplating how to handle this propsition and how it will affect his relationship in the future with Ennis or just what to say next. They were interrupted before we found out. No doubt he truly loved Ennis. He is the one Jack really wanted.
I've tried other interpretations of this look on Jack's face, but I always come back to him thinking of Ennis. I feel guilty because I personally find Randall quite inviting.
Does this make me fast? :s)
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I've tried other interpretations of this look on Jack's face, but I always come back to him thinking of Ennis. I feel guilty because I personally find Randall quite inviting.
Does this make me fast? :s)
Randall is all yours, CSC. I personally don't think he's attractive, but I guess that's because I haven't been concentrating on him.
Aintfoolin - I agree with you. Jack's blank stare could be interpreted in different ways. The gals came out too soon for him to answer. But still, to me, he had a blank, sort of bewildered stare - like he didn't know how to respond, like, "should I take second best?" - I really don't think he wanted to, but guess we'll never know.
I appreciate each of your opinions - it's interesting to see how others interpret things differently.
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Beauty, of course ,is in the eye of the beholder.Personally I think Randall's face has character all it's own. He's not a *pretty boy* but he's not an unattractive guy either. I'd go for em. Besides looks are'nt everything. His soft-spoken, nonthreating manner is what attracts me to him. Of course your fast CSC! ;) ;D, but don't fret cowboy, your not alone. I see where your coming from.
BBm fan, I feel no matter how you look at it, it involved Ennis. It's "should I, or should'nt I to me"+ I don't think Jack really expected this proposal so soon, but Randall was taking a chance. Can't blame him. Can you?
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Beauty, of course ,is in the eye of the beholder.Personally I think Randall's face has character all it's own. He's not a *pretty boy* but he's not an unattractive guy either. I'd go for em. Besides looks are'nt everything. His soft-spoken, nonthreating manner is what attracts me to him. Of course your fast CSC! ;) ;D, but don't fret cowboy, your not alone. I see where your coming from.
BBm fan, I feel no matter how you look at it, it involved Ennis. It's "should I, or should'nt I to me"+ I don't think Jack really expected this proposal so soon, but Randall was taking a chance. Can't blame him. Can you?
Can't blame Randall at all. Since everyone seems to think he's attractive, I took another, hard look at him. I guess it's the beard that I didn't like - I'll concede that he's not unattractive. I agree that his proposal probably came sooner than Jack expected & he probably was thinking, "hummm, he ain't no Ennis, but should I?"
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Beauty, of course ,is in the eye of the beholder.Personally I think Randall's face has character all it's own. He's not a *pretty boy* but he's not an unattractive guy either. I'd go for em. Besides looks are'nt everything. His soft-spoken, nonthreating manner is what attracts me to him. Of course your fast CSC! ;) ;D, but don't fret cowboy, your not alone. I see where your coming from.
BBm fan, I feel no matter how you look at it, it involved Ennis. It's "should I, or should'nt I to me"+ I don't think Jack really expected this proposal so soon, but Randall was taking a chance. Can't blame him. Can you?
It's funny...I think I am attracted to Randall and Ennis for the same reason. They are both quiet, and very masculine men. Jack is quite masculine too, but his character is a little more animated than my personal preferences allow. I don't see the animation as a bad thing, it just does nothing for me on a romantic level.
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Exactly right on your first point there CSC . Randall aint Ennis but he was attractive enough for Jack at the time. The recognition during the " staredown" in both their eyes sold me. They were zoning on each other for a few moments. Randall has gentle eyes I like that.
I also love Ennis's quiet manner. He thinks before he jumps( though he can take this to far but he's so shy.) , in a good way. Spontaneity is not his strong suit ,but they're both sexy to me. I can stare at Jack....all day long! His charming personality melts me down. poor Jack. It would be hard to choose between any 3 of these guys. Mercy!
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Reality check!
You have heard of Heath and Jake - well ladies and gentelmen, here is David!!!!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo71%2Fsaulvansoest%2FDavidHarbour.jpg&hash=585f59ad5643a6378f04183ed9fd05e33681a1a5)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo71%2Fsaulvansoest%2FRandall.jpg&hash=ad8bfbb14b91a7df139cd4b0289e20b7d0d0db3a)
David Harbour who played Randall. With bleached hair and without a beard, he is rather dissapointing in my opinion!
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Reality check!
You have heard of Heath and Jake - well ladies and gentelmen, here is David!!!!
David Harbour who played Randall.
I agree, JFT : a total disappointment ~)
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It is not a good photo. It is certainly not the sort of thing the studios put out.
To be honest, by the look of this rather dire snap, I think he would be great in a re-make of the Munsters, playing Herman!
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I should not be so cruel. The fact is - he delivered the goods in BBM. Every single part in the entire film was perfectly casted and acted.
I feel our dislike is simply a reaction to the part he played - sterotyping.
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It is not a good photo. It is certainly not the sort of thing the studios put out.
(...)
I should not be so cruel. The fact is - he delivered the goods in BBM. Every single part in the entire film was perfectly casted and acted.
I feel our dislike is simply a reaction to the part he played - sterotyping.
You aren't being cruel, JFT. I also agree that he was excellent in BBM (I wonder if the beard was there before the film, or did he grow it for the film ?). My disappointment in the picture you posted is that he is simply less hot >:D
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You aren't being cruel, JFT. I also agree that he was excellent in BBM (I wonder if the beard was there before the film, or did he grow it for the film ?). My disappointment in the picture you posted is that he is simply less hot >:D
If it was the same as the rest of the BBM facial hair - it was a glued on job!
If he can turn on the charm and the deep voice once - he can do it at will whenever he wants! If you look at the eyes, its still there.
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If it was the same as the rest of the BBM facial hair - it was a glued on job!
(...)
If that is the case, then it was a stroke of genius to imagine him in a beard (sigh).
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If that is the case, then it was a stroke of genius to imagine him in a beard (sigh).
The cowboy hat helps a lot too!
The beard is very convincing. It is just not thick enough to be immitation. I think it was the real thing.
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Reality check!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo71%2Fsaulvansoest%2FRandall.jpg&hash=ad8bfbb14b91a7df139cd4b0289e20b7d0d0db3a)
David Harbour who played Randall. With bleached hair and without a beard, he is rather dissapointing in my opinion!
Unlike Heath, you won't hear me raving about David Harbour. However, in the beard and darker hair as Randall he looks much better.
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Hi,
Shadowy or not, did anybody ever consider that when Jack told Ennis about Randall's wife, it could have been Randall he was talking about. After all Randall was up front with Jack about his intentions, and Jack, well, after all going to Mexico every so often, Randall could have been more convenient for Jack.
A really icky thought, I know, but there it is.
Manhattangirl
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Hi,
Shadowy or not, did anybody ever consider that when Jack told Ennis about Randall's wife, it could have been Randall he was talking about. After all Randall was up front with Jack about his intentions, and Jack, well, after all going to Mexico every so often, Randall could have been more convenient for Jack.
A really icky thought, I know, but there it is.
Manhattangirl
I'm sure a number of us assumed Jack was talking about Randall. It never occurred to me that he would be involved with LaShawn. I believe from the beginning Jack didn't think it would have been wise to be upfront about Randall. Ennis's comments regarding mexico was proof that Ennis did not want to think of Jack with another man. To open up about an actual relationship with Randall would have been very risky.
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You aren't being cruel, JFT. I also agree that he was excellent in BBM (I wonder if the beard was there before the film, or did he grow it for the film ?). My disappointment in the picture you posted is that he is simply less hot >:D
I didn't care for him with the beard - but without it - not so hot. With the beard, his eyes stand out more & I think that's his biggest asset.
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I'm sure a number of us assumed Jack was talking about Randall. It never occurred to me that he would be involved with LaShawn. I believe from the beginning Jack didn't think it would have been wise to be upfront about Randall. Ennis's comments regarding Mexico was proof that Ennis did not want to think of Jack with another man. To open up about an actual relationship with Randall would have been very risky.
I agree - Jack didn't want LaShawn. He couldn't tell Ennis he was seeing another man so he said the ranch foreman's wife - that way Ennis thought he was interested in women & wasn't "queer", which may have put him off limits to Ennis, due to the Earl & Rich thingy.
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I'm sure a number of us assumed Jack was talking about Randall. It never occurred to me that he would be involved with LaShawn. I believe from the beginning Jack didn't think it would have been wise to be upfront about Randall. Ennis's comments regarding mexico was proof that Ennis did not want to think of Jack with another man. To open up about an actual relationship with Randall would have been very risky.
I agree. I always thought he was talking about Randall, it never crossed my mind that he would have an affair with LaShawn, but that he told Ennis it was a woman he was seeing cause Ennis would have freaked out if he found out Jack was seeing another man. In a way, I wish he had told Ennis about Randall, because it would have caused a similar argument to the one they had the next morning (worse probably), but once it was out in the open they would have had time to talk about it (unlike the next morning) and maybe they could have resolved things, with Ennis finally agreeing to be with Jack properly.
Thanks for the pic of David Harbour, JFT :t) I actually find him more attractive without the beard (although he doesn't really do anything for me either way), but that's probably because I have a deep rooted phobia about men with moustaches and beards :( I think that's why I was so against Randall at first, but over time I've come to feel sorry for him more than anything. I can't blame him for trying it on with Jack, and let's be honest, Jack could've said no, but he chose not to, and Randall wasn't forcing him to do anything he didn't want to do. Randall was probably very upset when Jack died, and wouldn't have been able to grieve openly for him, which would've made it even harder for him :( Randall's just another victim of the unfair society that prevented Jack and Ennis from being together in the first place :(
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Thank you for your comments CrimsonSky. True indeed...Randall was another victim here.
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Jack would have nothing to gain but trouble, confessing his affair with Randall to Ennis. Why would he? He lied to keep things calm and safe. Ennis was not a patient man+it was just too painful for both of them.
Jack and LaShawn? PALLLEEESSSEEE! ........ no.
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I guess arrogant isn't the right word, but I used it because of the way he just sat there & smiled. He didn't know about Ennis at that time - I was just being protective of him (Ennis) and saying on Ennis' behalf - stay away from my man. Although if Ennis had been confronted with Jack & Randall, I have doubts that he would have done anything. Who knows - I just didn't want Jack with anyone else. Bottomline
I think I know what you mean -- he was too forward or self-confident, perhaps. Randall is certainly much bolder than Jack, no? Did Jack like this? At the very least, it was a contrast with Ennis.
I also understand your not weanting Jack to be with anybody else. Ennis certainly felt the same way...
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Hi,
Shadowy or not, did anybody ever consider that when Jack told Ennis about Randall's wife, it could have been Randall he was talking about. After all Randall was up front with Jack about his intentions, and Jack, well, after all going to Mexico every so often, Randall could have been more convenient for Jack.
A really icky thought, I know, but there it is.
Manhattangirl
Yes, this has been discussed in a number of the older threads. Personally, I believe this was Jack's oblique way of informing Ennis about Randall, and sometimes, I think that Ennis must have gotten it.
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A lot about Randall's appearance seems to me to have been deliberately chosen so that he has no resemblance to Ennis - if Jack were to become involved with him, at least it wouldn't be as a substitute for Ennis in physical type.
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A lot about Randall's appearance seems to me to have been deliberately chosen so that he has no resemblance to Ennis - if Jack were to become involved with him, at least it wouldn't be as a substitute for Ennis in physical type.
That is true. They were both men and the same race and social culture (what ever that means) but the personality, ecconomic status and appearence of Randall differs greatly from Ennis.
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A lot about Randall's appearance seems to me to have been deliberately chosen so that he has no resemblance to Ennis - if Jack were to become involved with him, at least it wouldn't be as a substitute for Ennis in physical type.
I haven't read the short story yet (yeah, yeah..just slap me! :8 ). Is Randall's physical apprearance discussed?
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I haven't read the short story yet (yeah, yeah..just slap me! :8 ). Is Randall's physical apprearance discussed?
You haven't read the SS yet??!! %&)
Randall is not even in the SS at all. Just a mention by John Twist about Jack bringing up another fellow in spring. "A ranch neighbor of his."
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You haven't read the SS yet??!! %&)
Randall is not even in the SS at all. Just a mention by John Twist about Jack bringing up another fellow in spring. "A ranch neighbor of his."
I know, I know..I'm not a recreational reader. Since Randall is barely mentioned in the SS I'm so glad they decided to make him into a quiet hunk. ;)
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I think I know what you mean -- he was too forward or self-confident, perhaps. Randall is certainly much bolder than Jack, no? Did Jack like this? At the very least, it was a contrast with Ennis.
I also understand your not weanting Jack to be with anybody else. Ennis certainly felt the same way...
Randall just looked c*cky (ok, I didn't put that asterisk in there) to me. But at least he was willing & Jack wanted that. With Randall, Jack wouldn't have to always make the first move (I know, Ennis did make some first moves), which I imagine can be frustrating. And yes, he was a contrast to Ennis, which was good.
To make peace with you, CSC, and others who like Randall, I'm going to try not to make negative comments about him anymore. At least he gave Jack what he wanted, so that is something positive. ^f^ Suffice it to say, I prefer Ennis with Jack. :clap:
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I know, I know..I'm not a recreational reader. Since Randall is barely mentioned in the SS I'm so glad they decided to make him into a quiet hunk. ;)
It's all right, CSC.
There are several things in the movie that were not in the book. They're just suggestions in the book really. Cassie for example, is not in the ss either. She's just a gooding girl that Ennis mentioned in the last meeting. There are also a few name changes.
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No need for peace making BBM Fan. We all want Ennis and Jack together. They belong together. Randall just happened to be an unexpected, yet, interesting distraction for me.
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No need for peace making BBM Fan. We all want Ennis and Jack together. They belong together. Randall just happened to be an unexpected, yet, interesting distraction for me.
I knew I'd be hearin' from you, CSC. Glad yer not throwin' that NASCAR mug at me. ^f^
It's funny, isn't it, how some people are attracted to one type of person and some are not. I do think "Randall" was better lookin' in that beard - than without. At least we both like J & E. I'm happy to let you be distracted with Randall. For me - can't get my mind of Jack. :d)
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Randall just looked c*cky (ok, I didn't put that asterisk in there) to me. But at least he was willing & Jack wanted that. With Randall, Jack wouldn't have to always make the first move (I know, Ennis did make some first moves), which I imagine can be frustrating. And yes, he was a contrast to Ennis, which was good.
To make peace with you, CSC, and others who like Randall, I'm going to try not to make negative comments about him anymore. At least he gave Jack what he wanted, so that is something positive. ^f^ Suffice it to say, I prefer Ennis with Jack. :clap:
I think everyone here prefers Ennis with Jack hands down. Randall is just another victim like our boys and needs to find his own way. I kind of felt sorry for him too. He made mistakes also marrying the wrong person, but Jack and Ennis will always belong together.
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I think everyone here prefers Ennis with Jack hands down. Randall is just another victim like our boys and needs to find his own way. I kind of felt sorry for him too. He made mistakes also marrying the wrong person, but Jack and Ennis will always belong together.
Actually, I felt sorry for him too - he was runner up to Ennis
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Randall just looked c*cky (ok, I didn't put that asterisk in there) to me. But at least he was willing & Jack wanted that. With Randall, Jack wouldn't have to always make the first move (I know, Ennis did make some first moves), which I imagine can be frustrating. And yes, he was a contrast to Ennis, which was good.
To make peace with you, CSC, and others who like Randall, I'm going to try not to make negative comments about him anymore. At least he gave Jack what he wanted, so that is something positive. ^f^ Suffice it to say, I prefer Ennis with Jack. :clap:
I suspect we all prefer Ennis with Jack. I suspect that Jack preferred Ennis to Randall.
Randall was indeed a contrast to Ennis. Perhaps this was something that Jack appreciated to a certain extent.
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I haven't read the short story yet (yeah, yeah..just slap me! :8 ). Is Randall's physical apprearance discussed?
CSC,
I have sent you a mesaage to your Hotmail address which will help answer this.
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CSC,
I have sent you a mesaage to your Hotmail address which will help answer this.
Thank you JFT. I think JT provided an answer also.
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I keep changing my mind about Randall. Hated him the first time I saw the movie -- I think it was the shock of Jack actually ever being interested in someone other than Ennis. Then, as I saw the movie more and could think more rationally, I realized Randall actually has nothing at all to do with Ennis. He's just a man with needs that aren't being met by little miss chatterbox, sees someone who may be of a like mind, and goes for it. He's not to be censored, IMO, since we don't know him well enough to judge him fairly.
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It would have been interesting if Ms. Proulx had extended this story a little longer. Randall's part in Jack's life could have been explored a little more in depth. Of course the inclusion could have added 30 more minutes to the film. That in itself could have impacted the public's reception of the film. So many what if's.
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Right, CSC. No use in second-guessing Ms Proulx at this date.
I just don't think we have enough evidence to think of Randall as a real horndog, as some people seem to suggest. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he just was attracted to Jack ( Who wouldn't be????), and put out feelers to see if Jack might be receptive. Nothing wrong with that.
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Right, CSC. No use in second-guessing Ms Proulx at this date.
I just don't think we have enough evidence to think of Randall as a real horndog, as some people seem to suggest. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he just was attracted to Jack ( Who wouldn't be????), and put out feelers to see if Jack might be receptive. Nothing wrong with that.
Interesting you chose the phrase horndog. ;D When I look at the scene where Randall and Jack met I see Randall as someone whose instincts told him that Jack was a possibility. He probably detected that Jack was not that into Lureen, which isn't unusual in couples. In addition he probably noticed that Jack probably was not paying any noticeable attention to the other females in the vicinity also. Easy math perhaps for Randall.
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By "horndog" I just meant someone who was interested in only one thing --- ya know? Some forum members have come down real hard on Randall, suggesting that he was hitting on Jack and there was something wrong with that. I don't see it that way. He may have been hitting on Jack, but, as you said, he may have been picking up vibes from Jack, or may have noticed Jack's boredom with Lureen. That may be why Jack so quickly asked Randall's wife to dance.
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I think Randall could have wanted something that extended beyond 'ya know.' A special buddy perhaps? After all, he invited Jack to a quiet cabin and lake where they could have done a few other activities in addition to..ya know. ;)
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I think Randall could have wanted something that extended beyond 'ya know.' A special buddy perhaps? After all, he invited Jack to a quiet cabin and lake where they could have done a few other activities in addition to..ya know. ;)
ya think?
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I keep changing my mind about Randall. Hated him the first time I saw the movie -- I think it was the shock of Jack actually ever being interested in someone other than Ennis. Then, as I saw the movie more and could think more rationally, I realized Randall actually has nothing at all to do with Ennis. He's just a man with needs that aren't being met by little miss chatterbox, sees someone who may be of a like mind, and goes for it. He's not to be censored, IMO, since we don't know him well enough to judge him fairly.
Yes, we should at least be sympathetic for the sort of life he leads with LaShawn. I know it would drive me insane...
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Yes, we should at least be sympathetic for the sort of life he leads with LaShawn. I know it would drive me insane...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo71%2Fsaulvansoest%2F133_zkrocena_hora.jpg&hash=9d1ad51681ef8d85fbd8b62e08e4b0db98dc0bfa)
..... Why you guys 'r so rude aboyt me! It aynt as if I done anythyn te de-surve iyt! Sure I like talkin' - but there aynt no harm in thayt now is there? If you only knew what I have to put up wyth wyth that husband 'o myne! Sometymes ay thynk hes a mayns mayn 'n thays a fact - the way he liyke spending ayges en ayges away in thayt darn cabyn in the woods with one friend or another! OK, so I'm off topyk here, but do ay care? The way ay sse it, some times a girl just got to staynd up for herself, cause thays beter than standyn by your mayn whyle he cahts up tractor sylsmen on the porch whyl your pwderin yr nose to go home ....
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo71%2Fsaulvansoest%2F133_zkrocena_hora.jpg&hash=9d1ad51681ef8d85fbd8b62e08e4b0db98dc0bfa)
..... Why you guys 'r so rude aboyt me! It aynt as if I done anythyn te de-surve iyt! Sure I like talkin' - but there aynt no harm in thayt now is there? If you only knew what I have to put up wyth wyth that husband 'o myne! Sometymes ay thynk hes a mayns mayn 'n thays a fact - the way he liyke spending ayges en ayges away in thayt darn cabyn in the woods with one friend or another! OK, so I'm off topyk here, but do ay care? The way ay sse it, some times a girl just got to staynd up for herself, cause thays beter than standyn by your mayn whyle he cahts up tractor sylsmen on the porch whyl your pwderin yr nose to go home ....
Like I said. THis would drive me insane -- or at least push me to suicide. Randall must have been a very patient man, or he had "learned" to be deaf.
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Too funny JFT! In fact it's almost scary! :8 :8
tpe, it was obvious the way Randall was portrayed that he was INDEED a patient man. He seemed to be real accepting to the fact that his spouse could "talk a blue streak."
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:8 JFT
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..... Why you guys 'r so rude aboyt me! It aynt as if I done anythyn te de-surve iyt! Sure I like talkin' - but there aynt no harm in thayt now is there? If you only knew what I have to put up wyth wyth that husband 'o myne! Sometymes ay thynk hes a mayns mayn 'n thays a fact - the way he liyke spending ayges en ayges away in thayt darn cabyn in the woods with one friend or another! OK, so I'm off topyk here, but do ay care? The way ay sse it, some times a girl just got to staynd up for herself, cause thays beter than standyn by your mayn whyle he cahts up tractor sylsmen on the porch whyl your pwderin yr nose to go home ....
Hilarious! She'd have my ears bleeding in five minutes! What a man, that Rnadall!
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I had wondered if like Jack with Lureen, Randall was initially attracted to LaShawn. Perhaps her looks? But the moment she opens her mouth, things go straight downhill...
I had wondered if Randall had not married LaShawn like many gay men: for subterfuge, or to keep appearances so that they could lead a double life.
Was Randall younger than Jack? How many years was it since Randall had left University?
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Im'sure she was stupid or desperate enough to marry him and be camouflage.
As for the age thing, they way she talks about their having met and his coming to Childress for a job, it sounds as if he didn;t graduate so long before - maybe he's younger than Jack? That would go with his being more ready to take a chance on someone he'd just met, and not a rodeo clown but someone with a position in the community. I think of him as coming from a different, more liberal background and having the ideas of a younger generation.
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Im'sure she was stupid or desperate enough to marry him and be camouflage.
As for the age thing, they way she talks about their having met and his coming to Childress for a job, it sounds as if he didn;t graduate so long before - maybe he's younger than Jack? That would go with his being more ready to take a chance on someone he'd just met, and not a rodeo clown but someone with a position in the community. I think of him as coming from a different, more liberal background and having the ideas of a younger generation.
This might be a mean thing to say about LaShawn, but I think she probably isn't smart enough to know what Randall was about... Ever...
And yes, I had the same impression: that Randall was fresh out of school (grad school, perhaps). So the thought did occur to me that he was much younger than Jack. Else, he finished his last dgree (Animal Husbandry) late.
Randall's world in many ways must have been quiter different from Jack's. LaShawn certainly didn't expect that they'd end up in Childress...
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LeShawn 2
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo71%2Fsaulvansoest%2F133_zkrocena_hora.jpg&hash=9d1ad51681ef8d85fbd8b62e08e4b0db98dc0bfa)
..... Yood never think that about Jack to look at him would you Lureen? You keep quite 'bout thinks just lyke I do! Ye no, since were having this little chat about out husbands, dyshin the dirt, and ay know yoo wont go tellin half the town 'bout it. In bed I have to wear the trousers if yoo no what I meyn. He calls me Shawn - I have to call him Yvonne. Fact is - Randall's a traynvestayt. Don't look so syoked Lureen - its true! Sure he'all Stetson en boots on the surface, but underneat he wears payntees en suspeynderbylst. He only wers Guchi. Shaves his legs en all. Fayct is, he looks beter in Langerie than ay do if you dont mind the beard.....
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LeShawn 2
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo71%2Fsaulvansoest%2F133_zkrocena_hora.jpg&hash=9d1ad51681ef8d85fbd8b62e08e4b0db98dc0bfa)
..... Yood never think that about Jack to look at him would you Lureen? You keep quite 'bout thinks just lyke I do! Ye no, since were having this little chat about out husbands, dyshin the dirt, and ay know yoo wont go tellin half the town 'bout it. In bed I have to wear the trousers if yoo no what I meyn. He calls me Shawn - I have to call him Yvonne. Fact is - Randall's a traynvestayt. Don't look so syoked Lureen - its true! Sure he'all Stetson en boots on the surface, but underneat he wears payntees en suspeynderbylst. He only wers Guchi. Shaves his legs en all. Fayct is, he looks beter in Langerie than ay do if you dont mind the beard.....
Thanks, JFT. I love this! :8 Because I don't like Randall (Sorry CSC!)
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Thanks, JFT. I love this! :8 Because I don't like Randall (Sorry CSC!)
It helps to laugh about it! A few months ago I was too upset by BBM to do this.
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I wonder what Randall's and LaShawn's sex life is like...
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Now you've said that, I feel quite sorry for the guy - imagine her yakking on and on and on....would she ever shut up long enough?
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Now you've said that, I feel quite sorry for the guy - imagine her yakking on and on and on....would she ever shut up long enough?
Exactly. I don't think she stopped talking even in bed...
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Exactly. I don't think she stopped talking even in bed...
I think she would probably remind Randall that he didn't have a smidgen of rhythm there too! ;)
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I think she would probably remind Randall that he didn't have a smidgen of rhythm there too! ;)
The dynamic between Randall and LaShawn is quite a strange one. But I am sure it must have worked. In the area of their sex life, I am sure Randall was like Jack, in that he did what was necessary to keep her happy. But I do suspect that Randall was not very good at this...
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Poor man - he appears only briefly and yet we have him all sussed out.
And let's face it, it would take a lot to keep LaShawn happily occupied and quiet - if he manages that he's not doing too badly.
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It's because we know very little about him that we are fascinated -- considering that he does plays an important role in Jack's final years (albeit not explicit in the story or film)...
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It's because we know very little about him that we are fascinated -- considering that he does plays an important role in Jack's final years (albeit not explicit in the story or film)...
Fascinated is right. Just seeing Randall and LaShawn prompted me to think "wow...here's a story in itself."
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Fascinated is right. Just seeing Randall and LaShawn prompted me to think "wow...here's a story in itself."
If this were a sit-com, I am sure tthe producers would have readily made a spin-off based on Randall and LaShawn.
Still, the fact that so little is known is the primary element that intrigues us. I would suspect that had they delineated Randall's character a bit more, there is a big chance that we would be less fascinated...
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It's because we know very little about him that we are fascinated -- considering that he does plays an important role in Jack's final years (albeit not explicit in the story or film)...
It might not be that important a role at all - it might have been a one off. There are deleted scenes of Jack with Randall. It there are ever released, it would be interesting to see how much they add in terms of depth.
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It might not be that important a role at all - it might have been a one off. There are deleted scenes of Jack with Randall. It there are ever released, it would be interesting to see how much they add in terms of depth.
I see your point, JFT. But Randall is important if we can assume that it is him who Jack finally settles for to share a life with him -- at least this seems to be implied in both short story and film. But it would be so nice to see how they would have filled in the details of this relationship...
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I see your point, JFT. But Randall is important if we can assume that it is him who Jack finally settles for to share a life with him.
Yes, that is true. Jack's parents were ready for them.
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I see your point, JFT. But Randall is important if we can assume that it is him who Jack finally settles for to share a life with him -- at least this seems to be implied in both short story and film. But it would be so nice to see how they would have filled in the details of this relationship...
I agree. No doubt the deleted scenes would have given us a little more insight has to how this relationship might have developed.
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I would assume that Randall never got to visit LF with Jack, but I don't know the particulars of the deleted scenes enough to be certain about this.
After Jack's death, Randall seems to have disappeared completely to us. I wonder how he took in the news of Jack's death? My suspicion is that it probably raised the feeling of fear more than anything else. I would assume that he would have suppressed any feeling he might have had and retreated deeper into the closet, no?
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I would assume that Randall never got to visit LF with Jack, but I don't know the particulars of the deleted scenes enough to be certain about this.
After Jack's death, Randall seems to have disappeared completely to us. I wonder how he took in the news of Jack's death? My suspicion is that it probably raised the feeling of fear more than anything else. I would assume that he would have suppressed any feeling he might have had and retreated deeper into the closet, no?
That would be a likely possibility given his location the cultural climate at the time.
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If it was Jack's involvement with Randall (and I can't see any way the mob in Texas would have known about Ennis) that brought about his murder, why would Randall have been left alone? At the very least he must have been frightened by what happened to Jack and looking over his shoulder afterwards.
I should think his first instinct would be to get the hell out of Childress.
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If it was Jack's involvement with Randall (and I can't see any way the mob in Texas would have known about Ennis) that brought about his murder, why would Randall have been left alone? At the very least he must have been frightened by what happened to Jack and looking over his shoulder afterwards.
I should think his first instinct would be to get the hell out of Childress.
I don't see Randall as being left alone physically. Getting out of Childress would have been first priority, especially if his relationship was a catalyst for Jack's death. I see him as being frightened enough to retreat to the closet indefinitely.
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Yes, we don't know what happened to Randall soon after Jack's death, but it is likely that he was unnerved enough to have contemplated a move out of Childress. If his relationship with Jack had indeed been found out, there was no way that he would have stayed and risk being ostracized or physically harmed.
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Even if Jack had not had anything going with Randall, the idea to move away might have appeared attractive after Jack's death. If Jack had been indiscreet enough to be labeled a homosexual, the line of thinking could conceivably be : "If Jack could get himself killed, so could I." Therefore, move away.
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I think moving away would be a better option for Randall than hiding deeper in the closet, since he's been seen with Jack already. What would hiding do for him? As for his reaction to Jack's death, I think shock and fear would come to him first, and if he loved Jack enough, he would also grieve.
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Perhaps he would move away and hide peer into the closet. I am sure Jack's death was traumatic for him too. It may also have been a close call, no?
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Yeah, it could have been a close call. It might have been him instead of Jack but if he was with Jack on that fateful day, they might not have been attack. But either one could be attack in the future.
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Yeah, it could have been a close call. It might have been him instead of Jack but if he was with Jack on that fateful day, they might not have been attack. But either one could be attack in the future.
In the deleted scene, I wonder if Randall just left Jack. Yes, I wonder how Randall must have felt when he found out. He probably kept quiet about it, even though he knew the truth. But he must have been scared. And if he loved Jack even a little, I think he would have been horrified at the thought that he left him there.
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I think he was horrified consider that he's been with Jack for maybe 5 years. He must have love Jack one way or the other, but probably not as much as Ennis would. The funny thing is, the first time I saw the movie, I actually thought that Randall was the person who actually murder Jack.
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I think he was horrified consider that he's been with Jack for maybe 5 years. He must have love Jack one way or the other, but probably not as much as Ennis would. The funny thing is, the first time I saw the movie, I actually thought that Randall was the person who actually murder Jack.
How interesting, JT. Then again, the murder scene was so mysterious that one can't really tell what exactly happened, no? Personally, I never thought it was Randall, but I did suspect Lureen. Did Lureen know about Randall, I wonder? Perhaps she no longer cared?
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I also suspected Lureen and/or her father as the culprit, but no longer Randall as I understand more about the movie now. As I recall, LD Newsome died before Jack according to the SS, so I don't think he did it either. I don't know why I though it was Randall. Maybe it's because when John Twist said,"...some ranch neighbor of his...", in the SS, Ennis knew it was the tire iron. I had that impression back then that Ennis thought it was this ranch neighbor that attack Jack. I have to admit that it took several viewings to understand this masterpiece.
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I also suspected Lureen and/or her father as the culprit, but no longer Randall as I understand more about the movie now. As I recall, LD Newsome died before Jack according to the SS, so I don't think he did it either. I don't know why I though it was Randall. Maybe it's because when John Twist said,"...some ranch neighbor of his...", in the SS, Ennis knew it was the tire iron. I had that impression back then that Ennis thought it was this ranch neighbor that attack Jack. I have to admit that it took several viewings to understand this masterpiece.
The quote you gave is the one that many think points to Lureen, rather than Randall:
Then this spring hes got another ones goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. Hes goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jacks ideas it never come to pass.
So now he knew it had been the tire iron.
{Proulx -- Brokeback Mountain, 1997)
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Yes, as I read it more and more, it seems to point to Lureen. She might have hired the killers, but I think only she knows what happer. She definately have the money to do it. Randall was probably just a victim for loosing someone he knew for several years.
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Yes, as I read it more and more, it seems to point to Lureen. She might have hired the killers, but I think only she knows what happer. She definately have the money to do it. Randall was probably just a victim for loosing someone he knew for several years.
JT , if you are interested, there is an old thread devoted exclusively to this topic. :)
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I'm straying off topic I guess. :8
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How interesting, JT. Then again, the murder scene was so mysterious that one can't really tell what exactly happened, no? Personally, I never thought it was Randall, but I did suspect Lureen.(...)
Hang on a minute, friends ! There is no murder scene, to be precise. It appears to be a flashback, however it could very well be Ennis's fears creating a nightmare sequence.
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It's impossible to know whether Randall, or Lureen for that matter, is complicit in or aware of the identity of those guilty of Jack's murder. If I had to say, I'd assume Lureen had a good idea after the event; for Randall, I guess, it came as a frightening shock.
But he's in a better position than say Ennis would be - he could move elsewhere and get another job as he has relevant qualifications. And as long as LaShawn sticks around, he has his camouflage in place. He might be more circumspect in making propositions in the future, though.
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Hang on a minute, friends ! There is no murder scene, to be precise. It appears to be a flashback, however it could very well be Ennis's fears creating a nightmare sequence.
Oops, I should clarify that all the things I said is based to my personal belief and my belief is that Jack was murdered and not killed by the accident. Sorry, *o).
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(...)Sorry, *o).
Me too, JT ! :-X
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Hang on a minute, friends ! There is no murder scene, to be precise. It appears to be a flashback, however it could very well be Ennis's fears creating a nightmare sequence.
With respect - I disagree. I know this is off topic but I want to reply to this.
If you go down this road the flashbacks with Earl who got killed during Ennis' childhood and the sleepy hug scene are also just hallucinations too!
This is a work of fiction - but all that is shown it intended to be taken literally as part of the story line.
This is a love story with a violent ending. Jack ended up cremated. A nightmare scinario - but not a nightmare in the sense of a bad dream.
If believing that this one scene is just a "nightmare" Ennis had while on the phone to Lureen and it helps you cope in someway, that is perfectly understandable.
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Hang on a minute, friends ! There is no murder scene, to be precise. It appears to be a flashback, however it could very well be Ennis's fears creating a nightmare sequence.
This is correct. Although cinematically, I have been told that the intent was to make the viewer think that Jack was indeed murdered...
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But he's in a better position than say Ennis would be - he could move elsewhere and get another job as he has relevant qualifications. And as long as LaShawn sticks around, he has his camouflage in place. He might be more circumspect in making propositions in the future, though.
Yes. And Randall was in a better position to move on and possibly forget. His world was more mobile than Ennis's.
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(...) If believing that this one scene is just a nightmare helps you cope in someway, that is perfectly understandable.
This is correct. Although cinematically, I have been told that the intent was to make the viewer think that Jack was indeed murdered...
There is definitely a psychological aspect to my interpretation ; perhaps something else as well, since I find a certain ambiguity to Jack's death adds to Ennis's sorrow and to the film's artistic merit. Without ambiguities... well, something seems to be lacking, in fiction as in reality....
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I think the ambiguity in Jack's death is tied to the ambiguity of his relationship with Randall. These ambiguities are so powerful. It is good that we don't know for sure...
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You could argue that if Jack's death were merely an accident, it lacks a tragic dimension, whereas if he is the victim of homophobes, his death is not just a tragic waste and a demonstration of the evils of prejudice, but also a source of terror for Randall and one which might impact on the rest of his life as Ennis's seeing the dead body affected him.
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You could argue that if Jack's death were merely an accident, it lacks a tragic dimension, whereas if he is the victim of homophobes, his death is not just a tragic waste and a demonstration of the evils of prejudice, but also a source of terror for Randall and one which might impact on the rest of his life as Ennis's seeing the dead body affected him.
Great parallel, WW, between Ennis's childhood experience and the possible effect of Jack's death on Randall.
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I took Jack's death, as envisioned by Ennis, to be part of the circle begun by Ennis's being shown Earl's body - thirty years had passed, but essentially nothing had changed. Though Randall wouldn;t have been shown Jack's body, he must have known what had happened, the official version at least, and probably guess the rest, so I assume would have been frightened and intimidated, though maybe since he's older not as profoundly as Ennis was.
Nevertheless, it would be terrible to live with the idea that by becoming involved with someone - and Randall made the first move - you'd been instrumental in bringing about their death. Jack had kept his involvement with Ennis a secret for sixteen years - it seesm unlikely that that was what led to his death.
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It must have been terrible for Randall, although I suspect he was savvy enough to hide his true feelings.
As Lureen who became too engrossed with business to care about her marriage, so too that LaShawn was not observant enough to be able to discern anything wrong with Randall. I am quite sure that Randall would be safe so long as he hid behind his marriage with LaShawn. But if he and Jack were observed by other more watchful individuals in Childress, then there is concern enough here for Randall to contemplate lying low for a time, if not moving out entirely.
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I don't think it's all that safe for Randall even if he hide behind his marriage considering that Jack was a married man. Moving out is still his best bet, I think.
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I don't think it's all that safe for Randall even if he hide behind his marriage considering that Jack was a married man. Moving out is still his best bet, I think.
I do agree. In any case, he was relatively mobile, given his education and his relative newness in Childress (where he probably had had sufficient time to put in roots).
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In which case, if it happened, he ( and possibly LaShaw) would be just two more people whose lives are disrupted by the aftermath of the Jack and Ennis thing.
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It's amazing, and sad, how many lives were affected by not letting Jack and Ennis be together in the first place. Their wives, childrens, parents, in-laws, Cassie, and now Randall and LaShawn.
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It's amazing, and sad, how many lives were affected by not letting Jack and Ennis be together in the first place. Their wives, childrens, parents, in-laws, Cassie, and now Randall and LaShawn.
Was Randall happy with Jack? I would think so. If Randall did plan to settle with Jack, then it would also have meant a divorce from LaShawn. Whether Jack lived or not -- either way -- Randall's life has already been affected: for better or for worse...
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I think Randall did love Jack, although probably not as strong as Ennis's love for Jack. So he'll either divorce LaShawn or live a double life for a while. But like you say, no matter what, their lives were changed.
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I think Randall did love Jack, although probably not as strong as Ennis's love for Jack. So he'll either divorce LaShawn or live a double life for a while. But like you say, no matter what, their lives were changed.
If Randall would have moved up to LF with Jack, then I think it would be difficult to hide the truth from LaShawn. I don't think Randall would have told her the truth. But in any case, he had to think of some grounds for divorce. Irreconcilable differences?
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If Randall would have moved up to LF with Jack, then I think it would be difficult to hide the truth from LaShawn. I don't think Randall would have told her the truth. But in any case, he had to think of some grounds for divorce. Irreconcilable differences?
There are plenty of reasons for getting a divorce with LaShawn. Her constant talking is probably the best.
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There are plenty of reasons for getting a divorce with LaShawn. Her constant talking is probably the best.
Randall must have mastered the trick of ignoring 99% of what she says... If anything, he must be a patient man...
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Yes, it seems every one's life was affected by Jack and Ennis's desire to be together no doubt. But as far as the "murder" I feel this was part of Ennis's paranoid thinking kicking in. After all it was his fear all along for not committing to Jack. It's what he feared all along, that Jack,would get careless and the tireirons would get him...just like like they got Earl. By not being with Jack in the open was his way of protecting him, though IMO it should have been the other way around, that had Ennis been with Jack, like he wanted he could have posisibly prevented Jack's death. Thus we have Ennis's post-Jack guilt about not being there for when needed him the most. But I still don't get what Randall would have to gain by being anyway involved in Jack's death. He had it good as far as I can see. The perfect cover and Jack on the side. Why would he wanna ever f--ckup this excellent set-up? To me Jack's death remains a tragic mystery,although I still suspect Lureen knew something she was'nt telling in my opinion.My 2 cents on the matter.
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I agree aintfoolin, in that I still suspect Lureen. I wonder how much of the real truth did Randall know concerning Jack's death?
OT: Interesting that you think that the "murder" was purely in Ennis's mind. This, of course, IS a possibility. I would assume you suspect Lureen?
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It's no secret that Lureen and Jack's marriage was going to eventually come to a screeching halt had jack lived and Lureen would have alot to loose if that happened. After all Jack was important financially to the business. Any thought or talk of divorce or gossipy affairs (especially this one and Randall too)would have been a threat to reputations and pride.
I'm not saying that Jack's death was Lureen's doing directly, but she just seemed so cold to Ennis over the phone and so REHERASED. That she and someone else had gotten the "story straight " that they were going to tell in case anyone asked for details. This is the feeling I got. I get the strong feeling that she knew more than she was telling about the circumstances surrounding Jack's death.
I beleive that all Ennis's "sacrifices" were for one purpose,and that was to keep Jack, The man he secretly loved with all his heart SAFE. His refusal to live with Jack stemmed from his desire to protect Jack from Earl's fate. When he heard of Jack's death I think it was automatically assumed by Ennis that Jack had done something careless and the tire irons got him. In the "death scene Jack is out in the middle of nowhere surrouned by these goons. Why was was he there? in some field with these murderers in the first place? We'll never know but to Ennis this was the only possilbe scenario IMO. I do suspect Lureen though.Just my theory.
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I beleive that all Ennis's "sacrifices" were for one purpose,and that was to keep Jack, The man he secretly loved with all his heart SAFE. His refusal to live with Jack stemmed from his desire to protect Jack from Earl's fate. When he heard of Jack's death I think it was automatically assumed by Ennis that Jack had done something careless and the tire irons got him. In the "death scene Jack is out in the middle of nowhere surrouned by these goons. Why was was he there? in some field with these murderers in the first place? We'll never know but to Ennis this was the only possilbe scenario IMO. I do suspect Lureen though.Just my theory.
I have voiced the same thing in earlier posts. The irony is that Randall probably tried to do what Jack wanted, and ended up fulfilling Ennis's prophecy -- well, at least in Ennis's mind.
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I recently watched the scene with Randall and Jack outside on the bench and noticed some things. First off Jack and Randall sat close eough that their legs almost touched. There was plenty of room on the end of the bench but Jack chose to sit very close. This takes me back to the FNIT scene where there was also "extra "room in the bedroll but Jack chose to sleep close.Maybe this is a "mating call" exclusive to him. A sign subtle, but there in both cases. Also I noticed their hands. they are strategaclly placed . Check it out. And last when Randall starts his line of interest in Jack , jack does'nt look at Randall but stares straight ahead , This is telling in it gives Randall a sense that Jack is open to suggestion? Thinking aabout it and not cutting Randall's talking off with a n immediate refusal either. Checkout Randall's body languagee when LaShawn appears and Jack watchjng hjs face.I think Randall read lot into these nuances from Jack.Any thoughts
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sorry, there's something screwy with my keyboard right now.
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I got the impression that Randall was disappointed when he heard LaShawn coming out. Jack hadn't given him an answer to his suggestion. I have to wonder if Randall was thinking "Damn! Did they have to come out here now?"
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aintfoolin, apologies not necessary, had same problem.
But you're on target, not only on the bench, but at the table, the women with them seem an intrusion. The glances they gave to each other, (Jack's eyes, God I love them), was also telling, like trying to communicate without words. The look on Jack's face when Ranall proposes the idea of get away together, unlike the FINT, someone approaches him, someone is wanting him. He look a little startled, but very definitely open to it. This is someone he didn't have to tip toe around, it must have been a new experience for Jack.
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I recently watched the scene with Randall and Jack outside on the bench and noticed some things. First off Jack and Randall sat close eough that their legs almost touched. There was plenty of room on the end of the bench but Jack chose to sit very close. This takes me back to the FNIT scene where there was also "extra "room in the bedroll but Jack chose to sleep close.Maybe this is a "mating call" exclusive to him. A sign subtle, but there in both cases. Also I noticed their hands. they are strategaclly placed . Check it out. And last when Randall starts his line of interest in Jack , jack does'nt look at Randall but stares straight ahead , This is telling in it gives Randall a sense that Jack is open to suggestion? Thinking aabout it and not cutting Randall's talking off with a n immediate refusal either. Checkout Randall's body languagee when LaShawn appears and Jack watchjng hjs face.I think Randall read lot into these nuances from Jack.Any thoughts
I watched the scene again to be sure.
Yes, I had noticed their legs almost touching. I had also interpreted this to be a mark of some interest, especially in the US where a need for one's own space, although not too extreme as in some other places, is nonetheless respected and expected between strangers or casual acquaintances (as in busses or trains, for example).
In a number of times in the scene, you see Randall directing his glance to Jack, and Jack doing the same. I don't think either of them do it at the same time. Do you notice a difference in their respective glances?
Lastly, I had assumed that Jack's blank stare was more about his thinking about Ennis at that moment, the same way you see him stare out blankly as he dances with Lureen the first time they met...
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I got the impression that Randall was disappointed when he heard LaShawn coming out. Jack hadn't given him an answer to his suggestion. I have to wonder if Randall was thinking "Damn! Did they have to come out here now?"
I agree with you CSC. Randall seemed annoyed to hear Lashawn's voice before Jack could answer. For a second there, I thought I saw Jack nodded before he stare out blankly.
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CSC , I also agree with you about LaShawn's crappy timing! If only her and Lureen powdered their noses a little longer, Randall may have gotten an answer to his proposal right then.
And your right Tpe , the glances were never face to face. I just get the feeling that they were making small talk out of a nervous "underlying " knowledge that something had been established between them inside+ they did'nt really know each other that well yet.I also noticed the nod from Jack. Did Jack see this coming at some point that night and just waited for the unspoken understanding to reveal itself when they got outside? Sometimes I think this. And Randall's suggetions had to sound familiar to Jack. How ironic.: Drink a little whiskey?, fish some, get away?. Hmm.
I think Jack's blank stare surely had alot to do with Ennis. He had to be thinking and questioning and weighing things out. Would Ennis find out? etc. Trying to rationalize everything out in those few split seconds after Randall's proposal. Will it be Ennis's tired "can't fix it ,so stand it "? ( including the something he "hardly ever gets"!) or go with someone who is close in proximity , and ready, willing and able. and above all discreet. It was a temptation that was hard for Jack to refuse. I can't blame him...... &*&Oh no! I'm LaShawning now.
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How could Jack refuse this golden opportunity to be with someone who as you said "ready, willing, and able". That twice, three times a year of "high altitude F@#ks" wasn't cutting it for Jack. Knowing this, Ennis should have put those reins on Jack.
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You are so right Manhattan Girl! I think this stems from Jack finnally realizing that as long as Ennis had complete control over the pace and direction of the affair, all would remain the same. Ennis was cluless as to how much Jack needed him. As Jack said (" you have no idea"!) Also Randall had as much to lose as Jack, Maybe more,maybe less but one thing about it Their lovemaking may not have had the emotional impact for Jack as with Ennis, but at least I'm sure Randall was available more than once or twice a year! ( my oh my) He preferred it to be Ennis but comon, honestly, who could blame Jack?... really now.
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You are so right Manhattan Girl! I think this stems from Jack finnally realizing that as long as Ennis had complete control over the pace and direction of the affair, all would remain the same. Ennis was cluless as to how much Jack needed him. As Jack said (" you have no idea"!) Also Randall had as much to lose as Jack, Maybe more,maybe less but one thing about it Their lovemaking may not have had the emotional impact for Jack as with Ennis, but at least I'm sure Randall was available more than once or twice a year! ( my oh my) He preferred it to be Ennis but comon, honestly, who could blame Jack?... really now.
I agree. With Ennis in control, things would not have moved much. And Randall certainly had the advantage of greater accessibility and openness to possibilities, even if jack did love Ennis.
Maybe Jack though he would learn to love Randall as much over time?
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Randall's suggestions parallel what Jack and Ennis used as their cover-story -fishing and drinking, male buddy things. Maybe that suggests that in some ways Randall was similar to Ennis - certainly what he suggested must have taken Jack straight back to all those times in the mountains.
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Randall's suggestions parallel what Jack and Ennis used as their cover-story -fishing and drinking, male buddy things. Maybe that suggests that in some ways Randall was similar to Ennis - certainly what he suggested must have taken Jack straight back to all those times in the mountains.
I had wondered whether Randall was in some ways very similar to Ennis -- which was why Jack was inevitably drawn to him. But Randall didn't seem as tortured. He probably had an easier life than Ennis, no? In any case, perhaps what attracted Jack to Randall were precisely those qualities that Ennis didn't have.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jakeg.fan-sites.org%2Fgaleria%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F36.jpg&hash=ff07aefdb36388206bda25cba11adff969d0d2f3)
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Their similar poses suggest a similarity between them - and there's the black/white thing going on.
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Their similar poses suggest a similarity between them - and there's the black/white thing going on.
Yes. There is an echo of Ennis in the color scheme.
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... I just get the feeling that they were making small talk out of a nervous "underlying " knowledge that something had been established between them inside+ they did'nt really know each other that well yet.I also noticed the nod from Jack.
Very accurate assessment here. I've been thru numerous similar situations.
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Yes, Yes thank you for the picture WW. Randall is obviously one of these shy quiet types. This is a similar personaliyt trait that he and Ennis shared. The strong silent types are the ones ya have to watch though because there is that mysterious aura that usually covers a sexuall animal just beneath that quiet surface. With the right person and set of circumstances Randall 's " beast was released " with Jack...another similarlity to Ennis. once Ennis "got going" there was" no rein on this one" I suppose Jack just has this effect on them , to draw them out. also agree Tpe that Jack saw Randall as a serious alternative to Ennis's reluctance. He was someone whom Jack could work with. Probably would have met Jack half-way. That in time ,Jack could have grown to love him, but Ennis would never be far from Jack's thoughts. The bond created by the experience with Ennis would not be easy to erase from Jack's mind. Only if Randall kept Jack a long distance ( in miles and mindset) from Ennis maybe there could have been a chance for them. A major acheivement to pull off, but not totally impossible. Jack could done alot worse but eeeeeeekkkk *chills* ;D ahem... ~)Ennis and Jack togerher is my ideal but....well you know.... sh*t happens.
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Yes, Yes thank you for the picture WW. Randall is obviously one of these shy quiet types. This is a similar personaliyt trait that he and Ennis shared. The strong silent types are the ones ya have to watch though because there is that mysterious aura that usually covers a sexuall animal just beneath that quiet surface. With the right person and set of circumstances Randall 's " beast was released " with Jack...another similarlity to Ennis. once Ennis "got going" there was" no rein on this one" I suppose Jack just has this effect on them , to draw them out. also agree Tpe that Jack saw Randall as a serious alternative to Ennis's reluctance. He was someone whom Jack could work with. Probably would have met Jack half-way. That in time ,Jack could have grown to love him, but Ennis would never be far from Jack's thoughts. The bond created by the experience with Ennis would not be easy to erase from Jack's mind. Only if Randall kept Jack a long distance ( in miles and mindset) from Ennis maybe there could have been a chance for them. A major acheivement to pull off, but not totally impossible. Jack could done alot worse but eeeeeeekkkk *chills* ;D ahem... ~)Ennis and Jack togerher is my ideal but....well you know.... sh*t happens.
The way Jack looks in front of him in that pic...it has an abstracted quality to it. It is a look that for some reason I associated with Jack thinking about Ennis. It is as if he is in another place... And yet you know that he also has Randall in his thoughts. Is he the hunter or the hunted?
Sometimes then, I wonder whether Jack mixes Randall and Ennis in his mind. It is probably part of a fantasy of having Ennis the way he wanted him.
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Tpe. you hit the nail on the head! I'm in agreement that no doubt.Ennis is present in Jack's mind. In fact it was probably the first thing that went through his mind after the propsal from Randall. Randall possessed all the qualities of what was apparently Jack's " type" without the inner conflicts that Ennis had. He was the one taking the chance on Jack. Jack was releived of having to be the one taking rejection. There had to be a certain sense of freedom for Jack in this. For once he was getting to establish the rules, he was holding the cards. Randall allowed this by giving him a choice. Him or Ennis. Jack being emotionally vulnerable and Randall's soft ,approach made it somewhat easier to take him up on the offer, but Ennis was definitly in the mix yet physically unavailible at the time. Randall was.Also Randall saw the body language between Jack and Lureen at the table which further clued him in to Jack's marital misgivings. This guy was not happy in his current state. With the eye contact for him and his back turned on his wife further lead Randall to beleive that Jack was open for some etra-curricular activities else where. By the time they got outside on the bench Randall's concentrating on tbe right words to let Jack know he was interested was obvious.My opinion.
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I love the way you say it too: Randall's soft approach. It was interesting to see Jack hesitate after Randall invited him. And yes, for someone emotionally vulnerable like Jack, Randall's approach was like soothing balm.
It did seem to me that Randall was more deliberate, and bided his time. His giving some leeway for Jack to make the choices shows how formidable a rival he could be.
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Certainly. Randall in a way had to feel like a breath of fresh air for Jack. Though he still loved and wanted Ennis, Jack was in a stifling situation with him. For once Randall put the ball in Jack's court. He suggested a "laid back" casual affair without major ties or commitments. For Jack, this had to be tempting as well as flattering for him. I always thought that sometimes it's not what you say , but the way you sat it. Randall was apparently cautious as well as convincing. Jack needed that I think at the time.
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Certainly. Randall in a way had to feel like a breath of fresh air for Jack. Though he still loved and wanted Ennis, Jack was in a stifling situation with him. For once Randall put the ball in Jack's court. He suggested a "laid back" casual affair without major ties or commitments. For Jack, this had to be tempting as well as flattering for him. I always thought that sometimes it's not what you say , but the way you sat it. Randall was apparently cautious as well as convincing. Jack needed that I think at the time.
Compare and contrast the first time Ennis and Jack met with the first time Randall and Jack met. The former looked so awkward, fearful, but still so spontaneous and charming. The latter, is guarded, but smooth and sophisticated. I think the difference can tell us something about the 2 relationships. Ennis and Jack grappled with each other. Randall and Jack danced a coded dance. I think the older Jack and Randall knew what they exactly wanted, whereas the younger Ennis and Jack didn't fully understand. Also, Randall had read Jack exactly the first time, and measured him enough to know when the cup is about to overflow, so to speak.
All this speaks of a deliberation and sureness in Randall's pursuit of Jack. Perhaps this was what Jack found so attractive and intriguing.
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I found this whole Jack and Randall/Ennis very intriging. Probably why I keep coming back to this character Randall and for such a small role in the film he made a major impact on me. Being Jack's lover on the side. He was competition for Ennis for sure. At first I hated him for his role in the relationship, but now i look at him alot differently. I guess he has a way of growing on me the more I watch him. Yes the contrast between the two meetings were telling. I suppose age and experience of lessons learned contrbuted to the differrent approaches. With a certainaly more mature Jack he probably learned Randall a thing or two. Personally I am attracted to the older Jack for reasons that I will not reveal!! <^( <^(
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Randall just didn't know what he is getting into when he approached Jack, (the poor guy). Could he had dealt with Jack? Jack would have given himself to Randall, but would he have stop with Ennis. This would have been the second front, the other battle. Randall after being with Jack would have not let go of him, Jack just had that kind power over his lovers. Would Randall waited patiently for Jack? Would he understand the pull Ennis had on Jack? Would Randall understand those once or twice a year trips to brokeback?
Randall would have been on that short leash.
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I found this whole Jack and Randall/Ennis very intriging. Probably why I keep coming back to this character Randall and for such a small role in the film he made a major impact on me. Being Jack's lover on the side. He was competition for Ennis for sure. At first I hated him for his role in the relationship, but now i look at him alot differently. I guess he has a way of growing on me the more I watch him. Yes the contrast between the two meetings were telling. I suppose age and experience of lessons learned contrbuted to the differrent approaches. With a certainaly more mature Jack he probably learned Randall a thing or two. Personally I am attracted to the older Jack for reasons that I will not reveal!! <^( <^(
Randall is certainly a minor character whose role in the fate of Jack and Ennis is disproportionately important. I didn't really hate him, but I did consider him as a potential rival to Ennis's claim to Jack.
Was Jack's Randall's first serious lover? Not so sure about this one. Like Jack and Ennis, he was closeted. But he appears bolder and more expereienced. I am sure that he has had prior dealings with other me4n, but I wonder whether any of them were really serious...
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Randall just didn't know what he is getting into when he approached Jack, (the poor guy). Could he had dealt with Jack? Jack would have given himself to Randall, but would he have stop with Ennis. This would have been the second front, the other battle. Randall after being with Jack would have not let go of him, Jack just had that kind power over his lovers. Would Randall waited patiently for Jack? Would he understand the pull Ennis had on Jack? Would Randall understand those once or twice a year trips to brokeback?
Randall would have been on that short leash.
I think Randall would have dealt with Jack reasonably. After all, he did seem to get it when he seemd to have acquiesed to joing Jack in LF. But even this is not completely known to be true. WE only know Jack's plans. At the very least, Randall seemed to have played up to the expectations. Was he serious? We can give him the benefir of the doubt...
AS to Randall having knowledge of Ennis, you bring up a curious question. I am not sure if Randall was ever aware of Jack's long relationship with Ennis. Jack seemed good about keeping aspects of his life neatly compartmentalized. Nonetheless, I doubt that Jack could have remained silent forever. His actions and his love for Ennis would probably give everything away in dure time...
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AS to Randall having knowledge of Ennis, you bring up a curious question. I am not sure if Randall was ever aware of Jack's long relationship with Ennis. Jack seemed good about keeping aspects of his life neatly compartmentalized. Nonetheless, I doubt that Jack could have remained silent forever. His actions and his love for Ennis would probably give everything away in dure time...
I agree it is likely Randall didn't know about Ennis. I do believe he would have eventually found out. As good as Jack was with keeping his life compartmentalized, Randall, at some point, would have to sense that Jack was holding back a part of himself.
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Hi all, This may be stupidest quetion you've ever been asked, but I really don't get where Randall is anything other than a guy who slyly propositions Jack. Jack doesn't even look at him outside during the invitation, and inside he can't seen to get away from the table fast enough - he even asks chatterbox La Shawn to dance! Why do you think Jack, a married man who has the greatest love in the world for a BF goin on in the mountains, would take a chance on screwing around behind his wife's back, in her own small town? If you've ever lived in a small town, you know how hard you have to work to keep your secrets, ya got any.
But I am serious, I seem to be the only one who doesn't choose this path for Jack, and really don't get it.
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The fact that he's mentioned the ranch-foreman to his parents, as well as to Ennis in a coded way, suggests that Randall was more than just someone who'd propositioned Jack. He was talking about taking him up to his family home - maybe he was grandstanding and hadn't suggested this to Randall but was instead trying to impress his father, but nevertheless the idea was in his mind.
And Jack had waited so long and so fruitlessly for Ennis - somethere in "Gone with the Wind" it says, somewhat paradoxically, "Even the most deathless love can wear out". Maybe Jack had just had enough of being in Childress with Lureen in an empty marriage with a pointless life. Maybe he was recklessly uncaring about whether or not he might draw unwanted attention if he had a relationship with Randall; maybe he just didn't care any more.
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Thanks for making those points welshwitch. I was organizing my own reply as you completed yours. As you can see zephK Randall was a little more prominent in Jack's life. No one will argue about the difficulties of maintaining discretion in a small town. Just remember that Jack was separated from the love of his life by distance and commitments. Randall was an opportunity for Jack to try filling a lonely void. It doesn't surprise me that his connection to Randall likely grew beyond a mere proposition.
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But I am serious, I seem to be the only one who doesn't choose this path for Jack, and really don't get it.
Either Randall, or somone else who met his description as far as wife leaving and cabin building was concerned, was about to move to Jack's parents ranch. There really is no way round this. It is one of the extra twists of the knife in the heart that goes with the (screen play) story-line. It could so easily have been Ennis - and he knew it.
Jack died trying to get his life the way he wanted it. Ennis could not fix it and had to stand it.
JFT
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Hi all, This may be stupidest quetion you've ever been asked, but I really don't get where Randall is anything other than a guy who slyly propositions Jack. Jack doesn't even look at him outside during the invitation, and inside he can't seen to get away from the table fast enough - he even asks chatterbox La Shawn to dance! Why do you think Jack, a married man who has the greatest love in the world for a BF goin on in the mountains, would take a chance on screwing around behind his wife's back, in her own small town? If you've ever lived in a small town, you know how hard you have to work to keep your secrets, ya got any.
But I am serious, I seem to be the only one who doesn't choose this path for Jack, and really don't get it.
Hello zephK, and welcome.
Even small towns have their secrets. And adultery happens everywhere. no?
I agree that it is much more difficult to keep secrets in a small town -- but people have always been driven to do things by a greater need. Perhaps Jack in the end really didn't care to keep things secret. Perhaps their going on fishing trips and sharing a cabin was a perfect enough cover to keep suspicions at bay.
I guess what I am saying is that it is not correct to think of small towns as transparent entities -- places where everyone knows what his/her neighbor is doing. Some of the darkest crimes and darkest secrets are done under the shadow of these small towns. The smallness of a town and its relative isolation may even help in keeping secrets. Nobody would ever suspect...
You have to read Randall in the context of Jack attempting to move on just before his death. Perhaps Randall is incidental to all this -- being the person at the right time and at the right moment when Jack decides to move on. But that does not negate what Randall stood for: all the unexplored possibilities that lay open.
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Hello zephK, and welcome.
Even small towns have their secrets. And adultery happens everywhere. no?
Yes. Many people seem to think BBM starts in 1963 and never gets much later! The Randall episode happens in the late 70's early 80's. Times had changed. Parts of sexual revolution got to even the smallest places - small town girls wore mini-skirts and went on the pill and many gay men stood up for themselves or moved to the cities. At the least there was awarness of these issues and depate on TV and radio that could not be escaped. The social acceptence, or rather deep seated resistence was of course there in small towns as it still is. In places like that if you want to saty you need to carry a wepon at all times, be trained to use it and let it be known you will.
Jacks father was pissed of that he did not get the help Jack was always promising on the ranch. And his mother was a wise old bird.
If two men wanted to have sex and diguise it as cabin building and fishing trips as many do, it was nowhere nearly so difficult to carry of as it was in the early 60's. It was by and large legal at the very least.
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Yes. Many people seem to think BBM starts in 1963 and never gets much later! The Randall episode happens in the late 70's early 80's. Times had changed. Parts of sexual revolution got to even the smallest places - small town girls wore mini-skirts and went on the pill and many gay men stood up for themselves or moved to the cities. At the least there was awarness of these issues and depate on TV and radio that could not be escaped. The social acceptence, or rather deep seated resistence was of course there in small towns as it still is. In places like that if you want to saty you need to carry a wepon at all times, be trained to use it and let it be known you will.
Jacks father was pissed of that he did not get the help Jack was always promising on the ranch. And his mother was a wise old bird.
If two men wanted to have sex and diguise it as cabin building and fishing trips as many do, it was nowhere nearly so difficult to carry of as it was in the early 60's. It was by and large legal at the very least.
It is interesting to think about how these small towns change in certain things and remian unchanged in others... Even University towns, where I am sure Randall must have expereinced first hand some of the effects of the changes wrought in the late 60s and 70s.
True, old habits and prejudices die hard -- especially in small towns. But change they do, even if the prejudices remain...
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Small towns also have the advantage of many isolated areas where both straight and gays used to meet. Jack and Ennis were able to act on their feelings freely and undisturbed due to the total isolation up on BBM. Except for Aquirre's *unexpected* visit they were able to love (sometimes even outside) without fear of being discovered. Randall, being a ranch foreman not only had access to a cabin in the woods, but I'm sure they were creative in finding other places to meet away from prying eyes. Sadly it was where Jack was killed so these areas have a disadvantge also if someone chose to do harm to someone without getting suspected. As I remember the 70's was the time of the disco era in the cities but small towns got in on the actions as I reflect by opening bigger *clubs* that accentuated the western culture.
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As I remember the 70's was the time of the disco era in the cities but small towns got in on the actions as I reflect by opening bigger *clubs* that accentuated the western culture.
Exactly. Yet none of this sort of thing is mentioned in BBM. I suppose Ennis and Jack at a gay disco with several hundred others would rather spoil things! Although Jack would more than likley have been into this sort of thing on the QT - it was a lot nearer than Mexico!
And of course the story nicely ends just at the beginning of the AIDS age.
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Exactly. Yet none of this sort of thing is mentioned in BBM. I suppose Ennis and Jack at a gay disco with several hundred others would rather spoil things! Although Jack would more than likley have been into this sort of thing on the QT - it was a lot nearer than Mexico!
And of course the story nicely ends just at the beginning of the AIDS age.
This is also the time of "Stonewall" in "69, I think Jack was more in state of mind to fight back. His rebellion, his acting up, was the final confrontation, he had enough.
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But Randall could have been more open to the changing world, perhaps? He did attend University, and he was apparently not a native of the samll town. For LaShawn's statement, it did seem that they were new to small town life, and LaShawn and Neiman Marcus were old acquaintances, no?
I don't know if the big cities in Texas were as subject to the changes going on in the other cities during that time, but I would suspect that to a degree, it was. Hence, Randall could have had considerably more experience than either Ennis or Jack, and in this regard, perhaps he had a distinct advantage over the two.
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Dallas in the 80s? There must have been a gay scene there by then, surely. Randall looks different, more metropolitan than the others at the dance, who look like locals, and even LaShawn is more citified - she goes shopping ( always a good thing IMO) and considers Childress a backwater. I reckon Randall would have a much wider experience of the world than Ennis and considerably more than Jack.
In that way both Jack and Ennis seem typically American to me. I was always stunned by how people in the emptier areas of the south and west and in small towns had never travelled any distance - one waitress once said she'd never been more than 20 miles up the road in any direction from her home town ( a village to us) which I immediately recalled when Ennis made that comment about going round the coffee pot looking for the handle. Randall was quite different - in a way more late twentieth-century while Ennis certainly and Jack to a degree belong to an older version of America.
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Dallas in the 80s? There must have been a gay scene there by then, surely. Randall looks different, more metropolitan than the others at the dance, who look like locals, and even LaShawn is more citified - she goes shopping ( always a good thing IMO) and considers Childress a backwater. I reckon Randall would have a much wider experience of the world than Ennis and considerably more than Jack.
In that way both Jack and Ennis seem typically American to me. I was always stunned by how people in the emptier areas of the south and west and in small towns had never travelled any distance - one waitress once said she'd never been more than 20 miles up the road in any direction from her home town ( a village to us) which I immediately recalled when Ennis made that comment about going round the coffee pot looking for the handle. Randall was quite different - in a way more late twentieth-century while Ennis certainly and Jack to a degree belong to an older version of America.
It's the sense of isolation and independence, perhaps (real or imagined). With Randall, he probably has had more opportunities to see the wider world -- and not necessarily physical travel. Schooling is a whole different kind of journey.
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Did Randall have what it took to keep Jack in his bed, and not get into his truck and go to Ennis? That's the bottomline. And I think that's could be said no matter where you're from, who you are, how or where you live. Love is the basic, most misunderstood, understandable emotion there is. It drives us to despair, or to unbelievable happiness, it's fleeting, long lasting.
We see it in Jack and Ennis, we see us, we bang our heads against the wall wondering what's in these guys heads, we understand to a degree their fears perceived or real, we jump and yell at the screen "hey go for it you idiot".
Look, for me, I'm not college educated, nor well travelled, I'm just working from my life experience, but when I come home after work, and there is someone there who loves me and wants me that's it for me, isn't that something we all are looking for? Isn't that what Jack was trying to tell Ennis? And Ennis is what and who Jack wanted. Randall could have given Jack the world, but who's world, his?
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I agree. This is the bottom line MG. What woould Randall have to do to keep Jack from Ennis. Jack hopefully will have made the hard choices BEFORE he really lets go. It's a serious choice to make to be taken seriously. Jack cannot be running in and out of Randall and Ennis's lives at will. I cannot see it happening. . There's also Lureen and a son to contend with. Jack is in some major troulble if he trys juggling all these people secretly. He would have to choose a life with one or the other. Coming home to Ennis is Jack's ideal but if Ennis is'nt willing to get serious about settling down with him, then Jack has to take matters into his own hands, take control of his life and make that hard decision. I doubt that as much as he loved Ennis , he would spend the rest of his life chasing a dream that will never come true. When he left home to rodeo in Texas, he made a way for himself to get out of LF.with all odds against him. This determined spirit within Jack I beleive still lives in him. He's not one to give up easily if he sees it's worth fighting for but we see Jack also has limits.Coming home to Randall may not be his first best ideal but he could do alot worse. Love takes time, but with the proper nuturing it can grow. Maybe he potentially saw this in Randall.IMHO.
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He's told his parents that he intends to leave Lureen and Bobby, presumably on his last visit home and after the confrontation with Ennis. I hardly think he'd say this to his father if he didn;t intend doing it, otherwise every time he came back after that his father would throw it in his face as yet another of the things he'd never done.
So having Randall there has made him see his life differently, that and Ennis's announcement that he can get away only twice in a year. Jack has an alternative and perhaps he's at the point where he is seriously considering taking it.
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Wonderful posts during the weekend!
Do we all agree that Jack did prefer Ennis to Randall? I think this was clear, and I think it is not because of anything about Randall per se. Rather, it has more to do with Ennis and Jack feeling that they were bound to each other by nature and by choice. I think Jack could live happily enough with Randall or with anyone willing to share a life with him. But these are all elective affinities, no? Jack clung to Ennis in spite of the knowledge that getting him to share a sweet life was an uphill battle. To paraphrase Scripture: Love chose them, and not the other way around.
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Jack might have played a very dangerous game with these two men. Both, Randall and Ennis wanted Jack. Randall could have been after spending a few nights with Jack, not so willing to play a gentlemen's role and let Jack go so easily. Jack had the ability to breakdown these men facades. He did it with Ennis, and he was able to do with Randall. This "thing" Ennis tried to explain to Jack, was probably Jack himself, and that in itself was too powerful for both to ignore.
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Jack might have played a very dangerous game with these two men. Both, Randall and Ennis wanted Jack. Randall could have been after spending a few nights with Jack, not so willing to play a gentlemen's role and let Jack go so easily. Jack had the ability to breakdown these men facades. He did it with Ennis, and he was able to do with Randall. This "thing" Ennis tried to explain to Jack, was probably Jack himself, and that in itself was too powerful for both to ignore.
manhattangirl, you do bring up a good point: Randall may not have been complacent when Jack was concerned. I had assumed that Jack had been the driving factor as far as getting Randall to live with him, but I had not considered the possibility that Randall could have been equally determined to have Jack. If this is true, then it would hasve indeed been a rather dangerous game for Jack to play, assuming that he would continue seeing both Ennis and Randall...
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I see the beauty of their marriages. Jack and Ennis had the freedom of an "all boys" week, fishing, hunting, and getting drunk. Their wives could be easily excluded. Their 20 years affair, lasted so long because of not only of their love, but the fact, these men can use their sex as a cover. The once or twice a year "male bonding" aspect of their relationship.
Now, Randall could have put a monkey wrench in that alone, being male closer to them, like them. Unless Jack could come up with a reason for Randall not going along with him to Brokeback. Jack would have to come up with a good lie, or just right out tell him, as a understanding in their relationship, he let him go once or twice a year to someone who needed him just as much as he did, tell the truth and take it from there.
Lies, compromises, concessions. How far can love take someone? We seen in this relationship with Jack and Ennis. Lies, compromises, concessions. How out of realm of reality with these men. Could this scenario have been possible?
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Lies, compromises, concessions. How far can love take someone? We seen in this relationship with Jack and Ennis. Lies, compromises, concessions. How out of realm of reality with these men. Could this scenario have been possible?
I think compromises and concessions are necessary if love is to live. Sometimes, even lies may have to be told, although this is always a two-edged sword. This was the main difficulty with Jack's relationship with Ennis was that it had stagnated when it came to "what next". There was no possible compromise that was satisfactory in the long run. And the lies dd not diminish on both sides. With Randall, there was the possibility of not just compromise but concession: to a shared life. This was what Randall had going for him.
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He also didn't have the history with Jack that Ennis did. they had been stuck in a repetitive pattern for many years; Randall was a newcomer and he and Jack could develop a relationship that could go in whatever direction they liked, as long as they were both committed to it. He also presented an alternative to going to Mexico for Jack, a way out of what Jack clearly felt as sexual and emotional frustration.
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One thing about the party where Jack first met Randall has always made me wonder. Did Randall pick up on Jack's being gay? Or, did Randall just take a shot in the dark -- throw out a line and hope Jack was gay and would bite? Or, did Jack, in some way I missed, throw out a line to Randall. Although I've seen the movie so many times, this question always pops up in my head. Did I miss something here?
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If you listen to LaShawn constant chattering, you'll pick up that they met them when their car broke down, so they knew each other before the party. So this makes me believe Randall was checking Jack out before that night, and then decided to make his move. Listen to LaShawn when she dancing with Jack you'll find out how they met.
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I thought Randall's truck broke down on the way to the party and Jack picked them up. LaShawn uses that as a reason to make fun of Randall - thinking his truck was OK when it wasn't and not able to fix it when it conked out. I decided that she feels a certain contempt for him as Lureen seems to feel a certain contempt for Jack in this scene, and that that's an indication that both have the same sort of relationship with their husbands. I constructed a similar parallel between Jack and Randall, and assumed that they are in similar situations and recognise each other soon after they meet. Then they suss each other out during the dinnner they've obviously just eaten and Randall makes his move as soon as he is alone with Jack.
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ww,
Your ability to decipher what she said is better than mine, but you're also right about your conclusion about how they feel about their husband. But Randall was right on one thing, if LaShawn shut up for a minute she find out how her husband really feels about anything.
Do you think, do you think that what they recognized something in each other? For men being so careful about making such a move to another man could be so dangerous, what kind of courage it must take to make such a step?
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I watched the movie again last night just to see the dinner party scene ( well, not JUST to see that scene!), but I still do not think they knew one another before that night. Why would LaShawn tell them about Randall's educational background if they already knew one another? And Jack comments about LS being a lively little thing. I understand it to be that Jack and Lureen came across them having truck troubles and picked them up, found out they were headed to the same party, etc. Jack later tells Randall that he will enjoy working for his new boss.
I agree with ww about the two women putting their husbands down. I think this is very realistic. Often, people who have been married for a long time do this to one another, sometimes not realizing they are even doing it.
I agree that Jack and Randall may be at the same spot in their marriages, and may have gravitated to one another because of that.
And, Manhattangirl, you're right about Randall being courageous to even approach Jack given the times. But, you notice Jack never answers Randall. LaS and Lureen come out talking and save Jack from having to respond to Randall's question about coming up to the cabin together sometime. I wonder what Jack was going to respond. This has always had me perplexed. I wanted to hear Jack's answer, but it never comes. The closest we ever get to finding out his answer is when Old Man Twist tells Ennis that Jack mentioned a neighboring rancher he was going to bring up to LF to whip the place in shape. We have to assumer Randall and Jack did get together somewhere, somehow.
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Jack lied to Randall ( or skirted the real truth) about his affair with Randall. I agree they did get together. If he had nothing to hide why lie? I also watched this scene recently and I think is was Jack who initiated thi staring contest between he and Randall . Even a blind man could see that Jack and Lureen 's marriage was on the rocks. With his back to Lureen, he and Randall engaged in this eye dance. I have been working on a theory as to why Jack asked LaShawn to dance like that. Some say it's to diss Lureen, but I think is was a little more calculating than that though I beleive that is true. So far I have come to the one conclusion that Jack planned on using LaShawn's aquaintance later... to distract Ennis away from he and Randall's little arrangement.Just in case.... I'm not blaming Jack at all and I understand Ennis's point too..... but sometimes I dont' understand. He's complicated.
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I don't know if Jack lied to Ennis about having an affair with a rancher's wife. I think he probably had an affair with LaS and with Randall. Having an affair with LaS would keep her from ever suspecting that he was messing with Randall. I didn't take it to mean that Jack lied to Ennis -- just didn't divulge the whole truth. (Just MO_
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I think they both know from the beginning that they're moving into dangerous territory. The dance with LaShawn could be the prelude to something more, I suppose, though judging by Jack's glazed expression he finds her pretty hard going. I think she' s more likely to be part of a distraction scenario - if people think Jack is interested in someone's wife, they won't suspect him of being interested in the husband. And of course in a macho sort of society having an eye for other women is acceptable, and a proof of " normality".
The story Jack tells Ennis may just be another part of the "I ain't queer" thing. If he were to admit to being involved with another man, that would be, aprt from any other effect it might have on Ennis, an admission that he IS queer, and by extension then so is Ennis, and Ennis is never ready to admit that, except after Jack's death.
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He also didn't have the history with Jack that Ennis did. they had been stuck in a repetitive pattern for many years; Randall was a newcomer and he and Jack could develop a relationship that could go in whatever direction they liked, as long as they were both committed to it. He also presented an alternative to going to Mexico for Jack, a way out of what Jack clearly felt as sexual and emotional frustration.
THis is true. Randall did not have the emotional baggage of nearly 20 years. True, there is a lot of shared intimacy and love in that baggage, but there was also a lot of hurt and misunderstanding...
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One thing about the party where Jack first met Randall has always made me wonder. Did Randall pick up on Jack's being gay? Or, did Randall just take a shot in the dark -- throw out a line and hope Jack was gay and would bite? Or, did Jack, in some way I missed, throw out a line to Randall. Although I've seen the movie so many times, this question always pops up in my head. Did I miss something here?
I personally thought that Randall sensed a connection. Just yesterday I found out that an office mate of mine was gay; I had sensed this more than 2 years ago even though everything about him at work seemed to indicate the contrary. I can't explain it, but it somehow makes sense to me that Randall (and Jack) had a similar sense...
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If you listen to LaShawn constant chattering, you'll pick up that they met them when their car broke down, so they knew each other before the party. So this makes me believe Randall was checking Jack out before that night, and then decided to make his move. Listen to LaShawn when she dancing with Jack you'll find out how they met.
Hello manhattangirl . You know, I thought that this occured on the way to the charity event that they were attending. So I guess I had always thought that in the scene in the movie, they had just met...
Edit: I see that you and WW already had a talk about this. :)
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I agree that Jack and Randall may be at the same spot in their marriages, and may have gravitated to one another because of that.
I also agree. They had a number of things in common...
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I have been working on a theory as to why Jack asked LaShawn to dance like that. Some say it's to diss Lureen, but I think is was a little more calculating than that though I beleive that is true. So far I have come to the one conclusion that Jack planned on using LaShawn's aquaintance later... to distract Ennis away from he and Randall's little arrangement.Just in case.... I'm not blaming Jack at all and I understand Ennis's point too..... but sometimes I dont' understand. He's complicated.
aintfoolin , how interesting. It sounds plausible enough, although I admit that I did not see it this way...
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I don't know if Jack lied to Ennis about having an affair with a rancher's wife. I think he probably had an affair with LaS and with Randall. Having an affair with LaS would keep her from ever suspecting that he was messing with Randall. I didn't take it to mean that Jack lied to Ennis -- just didn't divulge the whole truth. (Just MO_
This is getting to be more interesting. ;)
Frankly, I had considered the possibility of Jack having an affair with both LaShawn and Randall, but have considered it much too complicated. Well, perhaps Jack was...
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The reason I read it that way is because Jack told Ennis that he was afraid either the rancher or his wife would be gunning for him. I realize he may not have meant that to indicate he was doing them both, but, knowing Jack, it certainly seems a possibility. Another conundrum in this story.
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Interesting posts. I never considered the possiblity that Jack could have engaged in an affair with Randall & Blue Streak. Of course we are exploring possibilities here.
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The reason I read it that way is because Jack told Ennis that he was afraid either the rancher or his wife would be gunning for him. I realize he may not have meant that to indicate he was doing them both, but, knowing Jack, it certainly seems a possibility. Another conundrum in this story.
I think Jack was complicated enough to do this. He certainly struck me as a risk-taker, and perhaps a simultaneous affair with Randall and LaShawn would have been a mirror or even foil to his ongoing problems with Ennis and Lureen.
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Interesting posts. I never considered the possiblity that Jack could have engaged in an affair with Randall & Blue Streak. Of course we are exploring possibilities here.
And it would be interesting to speculate if Randall knew about such an affair or even encouraged it. IMO, there would have been a number of possibilities of whay he could have acquiesced or encouraged this. But I admit that this will all be pure speculation.
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It is a possibility that Jack may have had an affair with LaShawn, but I doubt it . It was Randall who OMT stated Jack was bringing to LF not his wife. Why would Randall encourage an affair between his own wife and Jack? , when he wanted Jack to himself. Jack had already come to realize where his sexual inclinations lie and was already in a situation with Lurren that was not his real preference. He sought out men in every instance we see when he needed sexual gratification. Even with Lureen, it was she who sought Jack out, not the other way around. It was the clown, male hustlers, Ennis and Randall himself who peaked Jack's interest. Yes anything is possible when we speculate, but one thing stands out. Jack sought out men only ,when obviously, with his charm and good looks, he would have no problems attracting women no doubt. Lied to Ennis about his affairs with Randall to spare Ennis this bombshell of a revelation, another man, and not just any man. A man whom he was thinking seiously about replacing Ennis with in his life. The lie also shows that Jack still held out hope that Ennis would come around. In case Ennis agreed with him some day in the future and actually meets Jack's *ranch neighbor freinds* , his secret would remain just that ....a secret. I also doubt that Jack would risk everything he wanted by trusting LaShawn to remain quiet about this to Lureen? Sleeping with LaShawn would only complicate matters even worse and Jack did'nt need that. Besides IMO I cannot see Ennis and LaShawn in competition for Jack's time. though that would be a very interesting conversation between her and Ennis!! IMHO *all them things* Ennis did'nt know did not include LaShawn. Jack admitted a lie , a woman . This fits the pattern of women being *covers* for the truth of Jack , Ennis, and Randall's) real sexual inclinations.
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I think it is possible that LaS saught out Jack. Her own husband was not satisfying her. Perhaps she thought Jack would. I see her as the foil. Randall will not be suspected of going with Jack if LaS herself is involved with him. Well, this is all just possibility, but when Jack tells Ennis he is involved with his neighbor's wife, I tend to think there is some truth to it.
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One thing I am certain of...Randall was definitely someone Jack gave serious thought to as far as a future. I get the impression Jack may have mentioned Ennis more than once to his folks. For Jack to suddenly change his tune and mention "this other fella" as the new person to help lick the ranch into shape, meant that Jack was at least coming to terms with Ennis maybe never committing to him. Of course the hopeless romantic part of me still believes that time was cut short for the right outcome. As much as I like the character of Randall, my heart will always want to believe that Randall did not stand a chance in the event Ennis ever said "Jack let's do it."
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It is a possibility that Jack may have had an affair with LaShawn, but I doubt it . It was Randall who OMT stated Jack was bringing to LF not his wife. Why would Randall encourage an affair between his own wife and Jack? , when he wanted Jack to himself.
I had speculated if Randall was Machiavellian enough to do this, because fostering such a liason between Jack and LaShawn would have put both of them in his power.
But I too suspect that this is probably unlikely. It did not seem that this was in the nature of Randall to do, especially if he was indeed qwilling to move to LF with Jack and abandon LaShawn...
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I think it is possible that LaS saught out Jack. Her own husband was not satisfying her. Perhaps she thought Jack would. I see her as the foil. Randall will not be suspected of going with Jack if LaS herself is involved with him. Well, this is all just possibility, but when Jack tells Ennis he is involved with his neighbor's wife, I tend to think there is some truth to it.
It is possible that LaShawn would have been the active agent in this regard, if such a liason did take place. I think that Jack was possibly capable of being embroiled into something like this, although his dealings with Randall and Ennis would have been complicated enough!
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One thing I am certain of...Randall was definitely someone Jack gave serious thought to as far as a future. I get the impression Jack may have mentioned Ennis more than once to his folks. For Jack to suddenly change his tune and mention "this other fella" as the new person to help lick the ranch into shape, meant that Jack was at least coming to terms with Ennis maybe never committing to him. Of course the hopeless romantic part of me still believes that time was cut short for the right outcome. As much as I like the character of Randall, my heart will always want to believe that Randall did not stand a chance in the event Ennis ever said "Jack let's do it."
True. I think of Randall by and large as a shadowy figure (neither sympathetic nor repulsive), but he did give Jack some element of hope before he died, even if that hope was predicated on giving up in trying to make Ennis share the dream...
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Ironically Jack had the remarkable advantage of meeting both his lovers' wives. In the case of Alma, she was privy to what was going on with Jack and her husband, and we know how she felt toward Jack because of it. Obviously saw Jack as a homewrecker. He also met LaShawn, who I think was totally oblivious to what was going on right under her nose...literally. I feel she would see Jack the same way as Alma did. LaShawn had hit upon her dream man in Randall. A man who could give her a decent life. I doubt she'd be willing to give him up easily and go back to being a sales girl in some shop. In his pursuit of happiness, Jack had to juggle all these people in secret, including Lureen and his in-laws. I cannot see him adding LaShawn to his list of lovers. She was Randall's wife and she was already too close for comfort as far as Jack was concerned and wether he was sleeping with her or not , in the end she would loose out eventually as Jack had his own plans for Randall that did'nt include her . Either way she would be left in the dust and would not be a happy camper over this. Would Jack risk LaShawn's wrath when she finds out she'd was only being used? I don't think so. She'd tell Lureen and everybody and anybody who'd listen. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!! Right? Jack did not need these problems.
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Ironically Jack had the remarkable advantage of meeting both his lovers' wives. In the case of Alma, she was privy to what was going on with Jack and her husband, and we know how she felt toward Jack because of it. Obviously saw Jack as a homewrecker. He also met LaShawn, who I think was totally oblivious to what was going on right under her nose...literally. I feel she would see Jack the same way as Alma did. LaShawn had hit upon her dream man in Randall. A man who could give her a decent life. I doubt she'd be willing to give him up easily and go back to being a sales girl in some shop. In his pursuit of happiness, Jack had to juggle all these people in secret, including Lureen and his in-laws. I cannot see him adding LaShawn to his list of lovers. She was Randall's wife and she was already too close for comfort as far as Jack was concerned and wether he was sleeping with her or not , in the end she would loose out eventually as Jack had his own plans for Randall that did'nt include her . Either way she would be left in the dust and would not be a happy camper over this. Would Jack risk LaShawn's wrath when she finds out she'd was only being used? I don't think so. She'd tell Lureen and everybody and anybody who'd listen. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!! Right? Jack did not need these problems.
Good points here. The question of why she would replace Randall with Jack: I suppose it depends on whether she just wanted a fling with Jack, or something not particularly seriousm but the risk of discovery would of course be a deterrent.
The advantage of Jack and Randall is that Lureen was too preoccupied to really care, and LaShawn was too talkative to figure things out. Still, I do wonder whether LaShawn was really way of of it to have noticed anything in the long run.
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But if Jack had carried through on his planned to take Randall to LF with him, LaShawn would find out eventually right? Divorce settlements etc, So would Lureen, Who knows what these two women could come up with if they found out what their husbands were up to behind their backs. Throw Ennis into this mix and they'd have trouble with a capital T.
There's no evidence in the movie that LaShawn was unhappy with Randall, the complete opposite of Jack and Lureen. Apparently they had'nt been married long in my estimation, so I think LaShawn was still fairly satisfied with him. Randall on the other hand had secrets that his wife was unaware of....to Jack and Randall's advantage.
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But if Jack had carried through on his planned to take Randall to LF with him, LaShawn would find out eventually right? Divorce settlements etc, So would Lureen, Who knows what these two women could come up with if they found out what their husbands were up to behind their backs. Throw Ennis into this mix and they'd have trouble with a capital T.
There's no evidence in the movie that LaShawn was unhappy with Randall, the complete opposite of Jack and Lureen. Apparently they had'nt been married long in my estimation, so I think LaShawn was still fairly satisfied with him. Randall on the other hand had secrets that his wife was unaware of....to Jack and Randall's advantage.
Yes, she would know, and it would have come from out of the blue, no? After the initial shock, would she have had the will or the way to know what happened I wonder. I don't think Randall would tell her the truth, and perhaps Randall would not even bring Jack into the picture. But could he hide it indefinitely?
AS for Lureen, I do think that she would have become vengeful -- not out of love betrayed, but more because out of pride and saving face. But perhaps Jack would have also hid the truth from her. If Jack gave her some reason, she probably would not have cared so long as she saved face, no? Even if she had the ability to know the truth, I suspect that Lureen would not have cared too much...
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Lureen was totally business, LD had died, she ran the business. She would have totally looked at it in business stand point, how would've looked if it got out her husband, was having an affair with a man? What would that say about her judgement, 'Well, you husband's queer and you didn't know it? " Oh, yeah she would have quietly divorced Jack, maybe a financial settlement, "let it be".
As far as Randall and La Shawn, just being in the room with LaShawn for five minutes, some folks would think she drove him into the arms of a man. Sorry, but believe that's how some people think.
The scenarios I've come up with may not popular but you have to look at this way, back in those days and maybe even now, some sectors of society would have looked at it no other way.
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Yes, I beleive you MG, but if Jack and Randall are neighbors and *good freinds* do you think that Lureen and LaShawn would become freindly too? as their wives? Or not? Did'nt seem as though LaShawn endeared herself to Lureen at the table. But as Jack and Randall became closer down the road would'nt the two wives also? I don't know, just asking but seems to me LaShawn would have to be givin a reason for a divorce through attorneys etc. and she'd seek some answers. So would Jack.Both wives have a stake in this. Lureen maybe an all business woman, yet underneath she is still a woman. If these two put their heads together after being scorned and used like this , all f--cking hell is gonna break loose....and we've not even began to talk about Ennis yet and where he fits in. They could'nt exactly be totally truthful about it imo. How could Randall possibly explain wanting to leave LaShawn and move to LF without raising even Lureen's suspicions? It's a tangled web they weave imho.
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Yes, I believe you MG, but if Jack and Randall are neighbors and *good freinds* do you think that Lureen and LaShawn would become freindly too? as their wives? Or not? Did'nt seem as though LaShawn endeared herself to Lureen at the table. But as Jack and Randall became closer down the road would'nt the two wives also? I don't know, just asking but seems to me LaShawn would have to be givin a reason for a divorce through attorneys etc. and she'd seek some answers. So would Jack.Both wives have a stake in this. Lureen maybe an all business woman, yet underneath she is still a woman. If these two put their heads together after being scorned and used like this , all f--cking hell is gonna break loose....and we've not even began to talk about Ennis yet and where he fits in. They could'nt exactly be totally truthful about it imo. How could Randall possibly explain wanting to leave LaShawn and move to LF without raising even Lureen's suspicions? It's a tangled web they weave imho.
You bring up some great points. I thought Lureen looked down on LaShawn, Lureen is a snob. LaShawn wasn't in the right sorority, and she is just a Ranch Foreman's wife. You talk about social levels, she might rank way beneath Lureen, after all Lureen runs a business, runs in different circles.
Where as Randall and Ennis considers themselves more peers than the wives would. Lets remember Jack is just a saleman and not considered at the same level as Lureen, he's just "the pissant who used to ride the bulls."
The Ennis situation would come much later, after the smoke clears. And that would totally be a Jack and Ennis problem. IMO
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Yes, I beleive you MG, but if Jack and Randall are neighbors and *good freinds* do you think that Lureen and LaShawn would become freindly too? as their wives? Or not? Did'nt seem as though LaShawn endeared herself to Lureen at the table. But as Jack and Randall became closer down the road would'nt the two wives also? I don't know, just asking but seems to me LaShawn would have to be givin a reason for a divorce through attorneys etc. and she'd seek some answers. So would Jack.Both wives have a stake in this. Lureen maybe an all business woman, yet underneath she is still a woman. If these two put their heads together after being scorned and used like this , all f--cking hell is gonna break loose....and we've not even began to talk about Ennis yet and where he fits in. They could'nt exactly be totally truthful about it imo. How could Randall possibly explain wanting to leave LaShawn and move to LF without raising even Lureen's suspicions? It's a tangled web they weave imho.
I also suspected that Lureen had no great liking for LaShawn. Lureen probably resented her putting all the attention to herself -- given her incessant talking. And her feelings towards Randall must have not been that good either, considering that he was not gallant enough tro ask HER to dance when Jack offered to do this with LaShawn.
If there was any connection made with LaShawn and Randall on that night, it would have been with Jack, I suppose.
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Lureen was sussing LaShawn out and was suspicious of her. (She's a woman and that's what they do!) She pigeon-holes her as having somehow got into the "right" university but the "wrong" sorority, then marrying the "wrong" man. She's probably wearing the "wrong" dress too, but I don't know enough about 1970s Texan female fashions to say. She talks too much and says the wrong sort of things. By the time Jack dances with her, Lureen has decided what she thinks of her. LaShawn is evidently trying to impress Lureen and failing; then she tries to butter Jack up, presumablu without realising that she's wasting her time.
In Childress terms, Lureen is much further up the social scale than LaShawn - if Jack has status it's only as her husband, married to local money. As he's a man and so is Randall, I doubt whether these things concern either of them as much as they do their women.
I assume that in Western terms, Ennis starts at the bottiom of the social ladder and doesn't rise much, if at all. Alma does when she marries the grocer, at least in material terms.
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Lureen was sussing LaShawn out and was suspicious of her. (She's a woman and that's what they do!) She pigeon-holes her as having somehow got into the "right" university but the "wrong" sorority, then marrying the "wrong" man. She's probably wearing the "wrong" dress too, but I don't know enough about 1970s Texan female fashions to say. She talks too much and says the wrong sort of things. By the time Jack dances with her, Lureen has decided what she thinks of her. LaShawn is evidently trying to impress Lureen and failing; then she tries to butter Jack up, presumablu without realising that she's wasting her time.
In Childress terms, Lureen is much further up the social scale than LaShawn - if Jack has status it's only as her husband, married to local money. As he's a man and so is Randall, I doubt whether these things concern either of them as much as they do their women.
I assume that in Western terms, Ennis starts at the bottiom of the social ladder and doesn't rise much, if at all. Alms does when she marries the grocer, at least in material terms.
You are so right ww,
As far as Ennis and Alma is concern they wouldn't even make the scale, they would be one of many nameless town folks. The only person Alam might indirectly know Lureen is throught her housekeeper who did the shopping at the store Alma worked at.
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Lureen was sussing LaShawn out and was suspicious of her. (She's a woman and that's what they do!) She pigeon-holes her as having somehow got into the "right" university but the "wrong" sorority, then marrying the "wrong" man. She's probably wearing the "wrong" dress too, but I don't know enough about 1970s Texan female fashions to say. She talks too much and says the wrong sort of things. By the time Jack dances with her, Lureen has decided what she thinks of her. LaShawn is evidently trying to impress Lureen and failing; then she tries to butter Jack up, presumablu without realising that she's wasting her time.
In Childress terms, Lureen is much further up the social scale than LaShawn - if Jack has status it's only as her husband, married to local money. As he's a man and so is Randall, I doubt whether these things concern either of them as much as they do their women.
I assume that in Western terms, Ennis starts at the bottiom of the social ladder and doesn't rise much, if at all. Alma does when she marries the grocer, at least in material terms.
I did love that rather pointed response from Lureen, pretty much saying that she was equal, if not better than LaShawn.
Perhaps the comparison between Randall and Jack would have been a sore point for Lureen. After all, Randall seemed to have been more accomplished than Jack, although it seemed that Randall was not particularly handy (given that he had to be helped by Jack and Lureen on the way to the event.)
In any event, Lureen seemed anxious to show that they were better than Randall and LaShawn. An insecurity borned out of their cold marriage, perhaps?
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I also thought all the university talk was another example of excluding Jack. Lureen and LaShawn were in the same club as Randall and Jack wasn't a member. And isn't that why Randall is depicted as unable to fix his broken-down truck? I thought that and LaShawn's comments about it were indicative of his being one of the new generation, educated but not possessed of practical skills - he's such a contrast with Ennis in this way as well as others. But he's a straw in the wind - as in the ss Jack saying that rodeo is being professionalized by a new generation of athletes is another.
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I agree WW, Lureen , LaShawn ,And Randall are among those who always follow the latest passing trend or new fads it seems . In my high school, they were referred to as *preppies or *snobs. Jack tends to stick to the classics. He is basic, It is evident through out the film, his style of dress and the things he treasured were deeply imbedded in his culture and upbringing. Though he shines at times there is still a humbleness about him. In this way he and Ennis are well matched, imo.
Randall seemed to be looking for something different though, I see him as a quiet , private type, educated yes, but not spoiled like Lureen and LaShawn. His approach to Jack was tentative, gentle, and non-threatening. as opposed to brash and egotistical like some men in this position can be.
Being married to LaShawn putting herself so forward at times at his expense can be a help or a hindrance to Randall. berating her husband to Jack about the broken down truck and Randall's lack of as you say "pracical skills" probably contributed to Jack's sympathectic view of Randall as another *mis- matched *couple like himself and Lureen. Their body language was telling and Jack seemed bothered by Lureen's *primping* ( was Jack finally seeing her true colors?) How rude and shallow was she?! After all he'd dealt with broken down trucks before.... Hmmm I wonder where, ? ;) *o) *o) Anyway, he understands.
In this case her accessive talking proved a welcome distraction to what was going on right under her nose...literally.
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I also thought all the university talk was another example of excluding Jack. Lureen and LaShawn were in the same club as Randall and Jack wasn't a member. And isn't that why Randall is depicted as unable to fix his broken-down truck? I thought that and LaShawn's comments about it were indicative of his being one of the new generation, educated but not possessed of practical skills - he's such a contrast with Ennis in this way as well as others. But he's a straw in the wind - as in the ss Jack saying that rodeo is being professionalized by a new generation of athletes is another.
I had not considered this WW, although it must have been at the back of my mind, for when I read this, it made sense.
Randall was of course siilent the whole time. He was apparently too busy studying Jack.
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Randall was of course siilent the whole time. He was apparently too busy studying Jack.
Being the strong silent type - he was more of a doer than a talker, but the look of things.
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Being the strong silent type - he was more of a doer than a talker, but the look of things.
It certainly gave him a distinct advantage, as far as having a wife like LaShawn. He didn't have to engage her, and could therefore go ahead without being under a cloud of suspicion.
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Randall not only didn't have to engage La Shawn, and no one else, all he had to do was sit back, concentrate on Jack, which I thought, unsettled Jack. Randall glances were getting to Jack.
Someone was seeking him out. This was not Mexico, no money on the barrel head, Randall was closing in and Jack sensed danger, and so what do you do, ask La Shawn for a dance, get the hell out of there.
Jack wasn't afraid of Randall, but afraid of himself, and Ennis wasn't there.
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Randall not only didn't have to engage La Shawn, and no one else, all he had to do was sit back, concentrate on Jack, which I thought, unsettled Jack. Randall glances were getting to Jack.
Someone was seeking him out. This was not Mexico, no money on the barrel head, Randall was closing in and Jack sensed danger, and so what do you do, ask La Shawn for a dance, get the hell out of there.
Jack wasn't afraid of Randall, but afraid of himself, and Ennis wasn't there.
Yes, Randall had it easy, in the sense that LaShawn did not have to be engaged. Jack sort of had this also, but Lureen appeared to be smartwer, if not less absorbed than LaShawn (although she was indeed absorbed by the business -- so there is a similarity here for sure.)
Jack wasn't afraid of Randall, but afraid of himself, and Ennis wasn't there.
Very well said!
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Randall I think has also been very clever in getting himself a wife who is the last person to put two and two together and figure out her husband's true nature - she never shuts up long enough to think. and as long as she can dress up in her masses of clothes she is evidently happy, so all Randall has to do is keep paying the bills. Though she does sound as if she thinks he isn't earning enough - there's that " more than Randall ever will make" remark. Maybe Randall feels Jack would be less demanding at least as far as clothes from Neiman Marcus are concerned. :)
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Randall I think has also been very clever in getting himself a wife who is the last person to put two and two together and figure out her husband's true nature - she never shuts up long enough to think. and as long as she can dress up in her masses of clothes she is evidently happy, so all Randall has to do is keep paying the bills. Though she does sound as if she thinks he isn't earning enough - there's that " more than Randall ever will make" remark. Maybe Randall feels Jack would be less demanding at least as far as clothes from Neiman Marcus are concerned. :)
I fully agree. Randall was more clever in this regard, perhaps to ensure survival. Besides, it must have made things easier for him: to establish liasons with other men when his wife is too preoccupied with herself to notice anything else.
AS for LaShawn's extravagance, I don't think Randall minded that much -- so long as they could afford it and so long as it made LaShawn blissfully blind to other things that mattered more to him. IT was an irritaion, but a suitable price to pay.